Example of what's wrong with keeping government small

[George M. Middius]

From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a

A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.

Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
inspector paid off.

[Joseph Oberlander]

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.

It's hard to do that today. More likely they used recycled
steel or put less rebar in. Afterall, who's going to miss 25%
rebar or notice that it was substandard gauge and made from
recycled steel after the concrete is poured?

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message


> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a

> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.

> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.

Where is the evidence of that?

How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons why
reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction, Middius.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.
>
>

I must have missed something.
Did someone here advocate that we
do away with building codes or condone bribery?

Of, cousre, there are lots of other reasons that could
have caused the collapse.

Though something similar to your charge did happen
on a road contract in Washington D.C. It had to do
with bribing the inspector to overlook incorrect temperatures
of a paving mix. The contractor was debarred, and there was
something in the Washingon Times (in the previous 2 weeks)
about isuues related to continuing the debarment.




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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> George M. Middius wrote:
>
> >
> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
> >
> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >
> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > inspector paid off.
>
> It's hard to do that today. More likely they used recycled
> steel or put less rebar in. Afterall, who's going to miss 25%
> rebar or notice that it was substandard gauge and made from
> recycled steel after the concrete is poured?
>

We don't know if the cause is cheating by the contractor,
cheating by the supplier, improper construction
procedures, or bad specs and plans.




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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>
>
> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > inspector paid off.
>
> Where is the evidence of that?
>
> How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons why
> reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction, Middius.
>

I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
in the previous floor has properly cured.




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[Joseph Oberlander]

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>George M. Middius wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>>>
>>>A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>>>
>>>Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
>>>possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
>>>inspector paid off.
>>
>>It's hard to do that today. More likely they used recycled
>>steel or put less rebar in. Afterall, who's going to miss 25%
>>rebar or notice that it was substandard gauge and made from
>>recycled steel after the concrete is poured?
>>
>
>
> We don't know if the cause is cheating by the contractor,
> cheating by the supplier, improper construction
> procedures, or bad specs and plans.

True. OTOH, part of it is all these computer programs and
know-nothing graduates. They don't figure they need to over-engineer
anything bacause it all works on paper. In the old days, they would
build it to take 2-3 times the load and not have to worry.

But - as you can see - someone alontg the chain a well as the designers
and client were looking to keep costs down as far as possible. All it
too was one greedy or incompetant fool and you have a pile of rubble.

[Robert Morein]

"Dogma4e" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:36:52 -0500, "Sockpuppet Yustabe"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>
> >> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
> >>
> >> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >>
> >> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> >> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> >> > inspector paid off.
> >>
> >> Where is the evidence of that?
> >>
> >> How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons why
> >> reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction, Middius.
> >>
> >
> >I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
> >in the previous floor has properly cured.
> >
> >
> Time will tell, but that is by far the most likely cause. Modern
> design methods (Load and Resistance Factor Design and Allowable Stress
> Design), require safety factors and redundancies that will keep a
> system standing even if more than one of the support members fail.
>
> They should strive to keep the design engineer involved through
> completion of the structure to help prevent construction errors. When
> building a bridge in the old Soviet Union, they would make the Chief
> Engineer stand under the bridge once it was build, while they loaded
> it up with dump trucks filled with gravel! Nothing will keep you
> focused on your work like the knowledge that you will be crushed like
> a bug if you screw up.

Yes, and about ten years ago, twenty dump trucks landed in a river, and
several people died.

Many interesting methods are used these days to build structures. For
example, in the lift-slab method, an entire floor is built at at ground
level, and jacked into position. A jack failure was the cause of the last
prefab disaster.

Here's a survey on lift-slab construction failures:
http://www.structuremag.org/archives/april2002/Lift%20Slab.pdf

One example of human error:
http://www.sptimes.com/News/052700/TampaBay/3_floors_fall_in_park.shtml

I think we'll find the cause was failure of a jack or temporary support, or
workman error, not bad concrete.

[Dogma4e]

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:36:52 -0500, "Sockpuppet Yustabe"
> wrote:

>
>"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>>
>> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>>
>> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
>> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
>> > inspector paid off.
>>
>> Where is the evidence of that?
>>
>> How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons why
>> reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction, Middius.
>>
>
>I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
>in the previous floor has properly cured.
>
>
Time will tell, but that is by far the most likely cause. Modern
design methods (Load and Resistance Factor Design and Allowable Stress
Design), require safety factors and redundancies that will keep a
system standing even if more than one of the support members fail.

They should strive to keep the design engineer involved through
completion of the structure to help prevent construction errors. When
building a bridge in the old Soviet Union, they would make the Chief
Engineer stand under the bridge once it was build, while they loaded
it up with dump trucks filled with gravel! Nothing will keep you
focused on your work like the knowledge that you will be crushed like
a bug if you screw up.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>>
>>> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>>
>>> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
>>> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
>>> inspector paid off.
>>
>> Where is the evidence of that?
>>
>> How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons
>> why reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction,
>> Middius.

Interestingly enough I call for Middius and instead I get an intelligent
response:

> I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
> in the previous floor has properly cured.

Bingo!

[pyjamarama]

George M. Middius > wrote in message >...
> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.


Government? It was union labor that built the freakin' thing.

Why don't you start there?

[George M. Middius]

Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

> > > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >
> > > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > > inspector paid off.
> >
> > Where is the evidence of that?

The evidence of a possibility? I'll tell you one thing, Mr. **** --
until I saw your act myself, I wouldn't have thought a creature like
you would be allowed unsupervised access to a computer. More ****s in
heaven and earth, etc.


> > How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons why
> > reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction, Middius.

I suggest that engineering a faulty design would be most desirable if
anybody involved anticipated your presence in the building.

> I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
> in the previous floor has properly cured.

Did ****-for-Brains claim to be a structural engineer, too? ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

>>>> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.

>>>> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
>>>> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
>>>> inspector paid off.

>>> Where is the evidence of that?

> The evidence of a possibility?

Right. A possibility needs to be more probable than wild, uninformed
speculation.

>I'll tell you one thing, Mr. **** --
> until I saw your act myself, I wouldn't have thought a creature like
> you would be allowed unsupervised access to a computer. More ****s in
> heaven and earth, etc.

The problems with your first wild speculation on this topic are so obvious
Middius, that your support team including sockpuppet Yustabe have already
roared into action and tried to cover up your earlier blunder. But here you
are, piling insult and blunder on top of your earlier blunder. Like Weil,
you should learn to quit while you are just this far behind.

>>> How about giving us a quick explanation of the most common reasons
>>> why reinforced concrete buildings collapse during construction,
>>> Middius.

> I suggest that engineering a faulty design would be most desirable if
> anybody involved anticipated your presence in the building.

Wrong again. Collapses like this are regrettably frequent enough that
there's a pretty good record of their causes. The usual cause relates to
hasty construction procedures, not a faulty design.

>> I think that would be building the next floor, before the concrete
>> in the previous floor has properly cured.

Ironically Middius, you had a chance to read this correct statement before
you made your second blunder, above. This makes you not only
poorly-informed, but also incorrigible. But we knew that already, didn't we?

> Did ****-for-Brains claim to be a structural engineer, too? ;-)

I was trained as an engineering generalist. However knowledge of the causes
of the collapse of reinforced concrete structures that are under
construction merely requires following current events. More careful
reading and less diarrhea-like writing seems to be a good course of action
for you to follow, Middius.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.
>
>
And with small government nobody can sue the contractor? You are still a
moron, like all leftists.

With smaller government there would be a swifter court date and speedier
investigation of any crime that might be involved in this case.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
> >
> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >
> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > inspector paid off.
> >
> >
>
> I must have missed something.
> Did someone here advocate that we
> do away with building codes or condone bribery?
>
> Of, cousre, there are lots of other reasons that could
> have caused the collapse.
>
> Though something similar to your charge did happen
> on a road contract in Washington D.C. It had to do
> with bribing the inspector to overlook incorrect temperatures
> of a paving mix. The contractor was debarred, and there was
> something in the Washingon Times (in the previous 2 weeks)
> about isuues related to continuing the debarment.
>
>
Private industry can inspect building for persons who contract to have them
built and then be sued if they collapse. There's no need for an expensive
government agency with overworked underpaid inspectors subject to bribes.
The whole reason for the government agency is to collect money and exert
authority that they don't need to have. If it's your building you take
responsibility for making sure it's built right.
>
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[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...

> I was trained as an engineering generalist.

This can mean one of two things.

Arny knows very little about everything, or he knows much about nothing.

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
om
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >...
>
>> I was trained as an engineering generalist.
>
> This can mean one of two things.
>
> Arny knows very little about everything, or he knows much about
> nothing.

Wrong on both counts, Scotty.

Let's start out with this: How long do you think it has been since I
graduated from engineering school?

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
> >
> And with small government nobody can sue the contractor? You are still a
> moron, like all leftists.
>
> With smaller government there would be a swifter court date and speedier
> investigation of any crime that might be involved in this case.
>
>

???
A smaller government would have a backlog of pending court cases
and a backlog of police investigations.
Of course we could always "contract out" judges.




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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> >
> Private industry can inspect building for persons who contract to have
them
> built and then be sued if they collapse. There's no need for an expensive
> government agency with overworked underpaid inspectors subject to bribes.
> The whole reason for the government agency is to collect money and exert
> authority that they don't need to have. If it's your building you take
> responsibility for making sure it's built right.

Tell mw why private inspectors would be more resisitant
to bribes than public inspectors.

Where I work, we contract with engineering firms for inspectors. The
construction manager, an engineer, is also private, but under a different
arrangement, as a contract employee. The overall supervision is from a
government agency.

In my area (not engineering), I contract with consultants to do most of the
actual
work, and I manage the consultants and the projects (not engineeriing)

As to your assertion about bribery, it is just as likely a private inspecor
would take a bribe, as it is likely a public one would do the same.

As far as government projects, it is ultimatley the government's
responsibility to be sure thery are properly built.




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[Joseph Oberlander]

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>And with small government nobody can sue the contractor? You are still a
>>moron, like all leftists.
>>
>>With smaller government there would be a swifter court date and speedier
>>investigation of any crime that might be involved in this case.
>>
>>
>
>
> ???
> A smaller government would have a backlog of pending court cases
> and a backlog of police investigations.
> Of course we could always "contract out" judges.

(Stalone voice)
"I am the law!"

[Sylvan Morein DDS, sad father of Bob]

On 31/10/03 15:00, in article , "Robert
Morein" > wrote:

> One example of human error:
> http://www.sptimes.com/News/052700/TampaBay/3_floors_fall_in_park.shtml
>
> I think we'll find the cause was failure of a jack or temporary support, or
> workman error, not bad concrete.

If you're looking for a qualified engineering opinion, my son Bob wouldn't
be a good reference.


Sylvan Morein, DDS

:

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/4853918.htm

> Doctoral student takes intellectual property case to Supreme Court
> By L. STUART DITZEN
> Philadelphia Inquirer
>
> PHILADELPHIA -Even the professors who dismissed him from a doctoral program
> at Drexel University agreed that Robert Morein was uncommonly smart.
>
> They apparently didn't realize that he was uncommonly stubborn too - so much
> so that he would mount a court fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court
> to challenge his dismissal.

The Supremes have already rejected this appeal, btw.
>
> "It's a personality trait I have - I'm a tenacious guy," said Morein, a
> pleasantly eccentric man regarded by friends as an inventive genius. "And we
> do come to a larger issue here."

An "inventive genius" that has never invented anything. And hardly
"pleasantly" eccentric.

> A five-year legal battle between this unusual ex-student and one of
> Philadelphia's premier educational institutions has gone largely unnoticed
> by the media and the public.

Because no one gives a **** about a 50 year old loser.
>
> But it has been the subject of much attention in academia.
>
> Drexel says it dismissed Morein in 1995 because he failed, after eight
> years, to complete a thesis required for a doctorate in electrical and
> computer engineering.

Not to mention the 12 years it took him to get thru high school!
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>
> Morein, 50, of Dresher, Pa., contends that he was dismissed only after his
> thesis adviser "appropriated" an innovative idea Morein had developed in a
> rarefied area of thought called "estimation theory" and arranged to have it
> patented.

A contention rejected by three courts. From a 50 YEAR OLD that has
done NOTHING PRODUCTIVE with his life.

>
> In February 2000, Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge Esther R. Sylvester
> ruled that Morein's adviser indeed had taken his idea.

An idea that was worth nothing, because it didn't work. Just like
Robert Morein, who has never worked a day in his life.

>
> Sylvester held that Morein had been unjustly dismissed and she ordered
> Drexel to reinstate him or refund his tuition.

Funnily enough, Drexel AGREED to reinstate Morein, who rejected the
offer because he knew he was and IS a failed loser. Spending daddy's
money to cover up his lack of productivity.
>
> That brought roars of protest from the lions of academia. There is a long
> tradition in America of noninterference by the courts in academic decisions.
>
> Backed by every major university in Pennsylvania and organizations
> representing thousands of others around the country, Drexel appealed to the
> state Superior Court.
>
> The appellate court, by a 2-1 vote, reversed Sylvester in June 2001 and
> restored the status quo. Morein was, once again, out at Drexel. And the
> time-honored axiom that courts ought to keep their noses out of academic
> affairs was reasserted.
>
> The state Supreme Court declined to review the case and, in an ordinary
> litigation, that would have been the end of it.
>
> But Morein, in a quixotic gesture that goes steeply against the odds, has
> asked the highest court in the land to give him a hearing.

Daddy throws more money down the crapper.

> His attorney, Faye Riva Cohen, said the Supreme Court appeal is important
> even if it fails because it raises the issue of whether a university has a
> right to lay claim to a student's ideas - or intellectual property - without
> compensation.
>
> "Any time you are in a Ph.D. program, you are a serf, you are a slave," said
> Cohen. Morein "is concerned not only for himself. He feels that what
> happened to him is pretty common."

It's called HIGHER EDUCATION, honey. The students aren't in charge,
the UNIVERSITY and PROFESSORS are.


> Drexel's attorney, Neil J. Hamburg, called Morein's appeal - and his claim
> that his idea was stolen - "preposterous."
>
> "I will eat my shoe if the Supreme Court hears this case," declared Hamburg.
> "We're not even going to file a response. He is a brilliant guy, but his
> intelligence should be used for the advancement of society rather than
> pursuing self-destructive litigation."

No **** sherlock.

> The litigation began in 1997, when Morein sued Drexel claiming that a
> committee of professors had dumped him after he accused his faculty adviser,
> Paul Kalata, of appropriating his idea.
>
> His concept was considered to have potential value for businesses in
> minutely measuring the internal functions of machines, industrial processes
> and electronic systems.
>
> The field of "estimation theory" is one in which scientists attempt to
> calculate what they cannot plainly observe, such as the inside workings of a
> nuclear plant or a computer.

My estimation theory? There is NO brain at work inside the head of
Robert Morein, only sawdust.

>
> Prior to Morein's dismissal, Drexel looked into his complaint against Kalata
> and concluded that the associate professor had done nothing wrong. Kalata,
> through a university lawyer, declined to comment.
>
> At a nonjury trial before Sylvester in 1999, Morein testified that Kalata in
> 1990 had posed a technical problem for him to study for his thesis. It
> related to estimation theory.
>
> Kalata, who did not appear at the trial, said in a 1998 deposition that a
> Cherry Hill company for which he was a paid consultant, K-Tron
> International, had asked him to develop an alternate estimation method for
> it. The company manufactures bulk material feeders and conveyors used in
> industrial processes.
>
> Morein testified that, after much study, he experienced "a flash of
> inspiration" and came up with a novel mathematical concept to address the
> problem Kalata had presented.
>
> Without his knowledge, Morein said, Kalata shared the idea with K-Tron.
>
> K-Tron then applied for a patent, listing Kalata and Morein as co-inventors.
>
> Morein said he agreed "under duress" to the arrangement, but felt "locked
> into a highly disadvantageous situation." As a result, he testified, he
> became alienated from Kalata.
>
> As events unfolded, Kalata signed over his interest in the patent to K-Tron.
> The company never capitalized on the technology and eventually allowed the
> patent to lapse. No one made any money from it.

Because it was bogus. Even Kalata was mortified that he was a victim
of this SCAMSTER, Robert Morein.

> In 1991, Morein went to the head of Drexel's electrical engineering
> department, accused Kalata of appropriating his intellectual property, and
> asked for a new faculty adviser.

The staff at Drexel laughed wildly at the ignorance of Robert Morein.

> He didn't get one. Instead, a committee of four professors, including
> Kalata, was formed to oversee Morein's thesis work.
>
> Four years later, the committee dismissed him, saying he had failed to
> complete his thesis.

So Morein ****s up his first couple years, gets new faculty advisers
(a TEAM), and then ****s up again! Brilliant!

>
> Morein claimed that the committee intentionally had undermined him.

Morein makes LOTS of claims that are nonsense. One look thru the
usenet proves it.

>
> Judge Sylvester agreed. In her ruling, Sylvester wrote: "It is this court's
> opinion that the defendants were motivated by bad faith and ill will."

So much for political machine judges.
>
> The U.S. Supreme Court receives 7,000 appeals a year and agrees to hear only
> about 100 of them.
>
> Hamburg, Drexel's attorney, is betting the high court will reject Morein's
> appeal out of hand because its focal point - concerning a student's right to
> intellectual property - was not central to the litigation in the
> Pennsylvania courts.

> Morein said he understands it's a long shot, but he feels he must pursue it.

Just like all the failed "causes" Morein pursues. Heck, he's been
chasing another "Brian McCarty" for years and yet has ZERO impact on
anything.

Failure. Look it up in Websters. You'll see a picture of Robert
Morein. The poster boy for SCAMMING LOSERS.

>
> "I had to seek closure," he said.
>
> Without a doctorate, he said, he has been unable to pursue a career he had
> hoped would lead him into research on artificial intelligence.

Who better to tell us about "artificial intelligence".
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>
> As it is, Morein lives at home with his father and makes a modest income
> from stock investments. He has written a film script that he is trying to
> make into a movie. And in the basement of his father's home he is working on
> an invention, an industrial pump so powerful it could cut steel with a
> bulletlike stream of water.


FAILED STUDENT
FAILED MOVIE MAKER
FAILED SCREENWRITER
FAILED INVESTOR
FAILED DRIVER
FAILED SON
FAILED PARENTS
FAILED INVENTOR
FAILED PLAINTIFF
FAILED HOMOSEXUAL
FAILED HUMAN
FAILED
FAILED

> But none of it is what he had imagined for himself.
>
> "I don't really have a replacement career," Morein said. "It's a very
> gnawing thing."

[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > Private industry can inspect building for persons who contract to have
> them
> > built and then be sued if they collapse. There's no need for an
expensive
> > government agency with overworked underpaid inspectors subject to
bribes.
> > The whole reason for the government agency is to collect money and exert
> > authority that they don't need to have. If it's your building you take
> > responsibility for making sure it's built right.
>
> Tell mw why private inspectors would be more resisitant
> to bribes than public inspectors.
>
Because he would be an employee being supervised by the people paying him,
who are more likely to keep a sharp eye on him. When you have a governemtn
agency involved people tend to think that all they need to be assured. If
you are having something built and it's your money on the line, you want to
make sure the people you pay are giving you your money's worth.
It's not "fool" proof, I grat you. Turning it over to government is less
perfect. Private Inspectors would have more to lose.

> Where I work, we contract with engineering firms for inspectors. The
> construction manager, an engineer, is also private, but under a different
> arrangement, as a contract employee. The overall supervision is from a
> government agency.
>
And you have to wait for their schedule and sometiimes follow rules that are
overkill.

> In my area (not engineering), I contract with consultants to do most of
the
> actual
> work, and I manage the consultants and the projects (not engineeriing)
>
> As to your assertion about bribery, it is just as likely a private
inspecor
> would take a bribe, as it is likely a public one would do the same.
>
I doubt it since they would be paid better the government agents.

> As far as government projects, it is ultimatley the government's
> responsibility to be sure thery are properly built.
>
Civil service jobs being the most highly qualified and tightly controlled?
No cost overruns?

>
>
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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > And with small government nobody can sue the contractor? You are still
a
> > moron, like all leftists.
> >
> > With smaller government there would be a swifter court date and speedier
> > investigation of any crime that might be involved in this case.
> >
> >
>
> ???
> A smaller government would have a backlog of pending court cases
> and a backlog of police investigations.
> Of course we could always "contract out" judges.
>
>
>
You're misunderstanding me. By smaller I mean less agencies. More police,
more courts, more judges.

If you only have 3 things to spend money on instead of 3000 you get more.


>
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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >

> >
> > Tell mw why private inspectors would be more resisitant
> > to bribes than public inspectors.
> >
> Because he would be an employee being supervised by the people paying him,
> who are more likely to keep a sharp eye on him.

Gimme a break!!
If private industry were so ethical and responsible as that, we wouldn't
need inspectors at all. Thje workers doing the job are also employees being
supervised by the people paying them.

> When you have a governemtn
> agency involved people tend to think that all they need to be assured. If
> you are having something built and it's your money on the line, you want
to
> make sure the people you pay are giving you your money's worth.
> It's not "fool" proof, I grat you. Turning it over to government is less
> perfect. Private Inspectors would have more to lose.
>

Corrupt public employee inspectors have lost their jobs, their
retirements, and have gone to jail.

> > Where I work, we contract with engineering firms for inspectors. The
> > construction manager, an engineer, is also private, but under a
different
> > arrangement, as a contract employee. The overall supervision is from a
> > government agency.
> >
> And you have to wait for their schedule and sometiimes follow rules that
are
> overkill.
>

Not at all!

> > In my area (not engineering), I contract with consultants to do most of
> the
> > actual
> > work, and I manage the consultants and the projects (not engineeriing)
> >
> > As to your assertion about bribery, it is just as likely a private
> inspecor
> > would take a bribe, as it is likely a public one would do the same.
> >
> I doubt it since they would be paid better the government agents.
>
> > As far as government projects, it is ultimatley the government's
> > responsibility to be sure thery are properly built.
> >
> Civil service jobs being the most highly qualified and tightly controlled?
> No cost overruns?
>

We have extremely well qualified engineers in our organization. However,
they
really are mmore project managers than nuts and bolt design engineers.
We actually leave that to our priovate consultanats, and rely on their
seals on the plans. We tend to find a number of mistakes when we got to
construction. We don't do technical reviews, because we are not allocated
enough staff.


Cost overruns are actually a political problem. I prepare estimates for my
functions,
after I turn them in, they are lowered, to make them more palatable to the
public.
Then, whe the project moves forward, and costs come in near my original
estimate,
we have an overrun. Also, public projects are susceptible to mission creep,
politcos and
directors lke to addon features as we build it. Then there are always the
unforeseen
problems, such as unexpected soil conditions, or a previously unknown
underground water flow. we do test pits, but only every several hundred feet
or so.





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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > And with small government nobody can sue the contractor? You are
still
> a
> > > moron, like all leftists.
> > >
> > > With smaller government there would be a swifter court date and
speedier
> > > investigation of any crime that might be involved in this case.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ???
> > A smaller government would have a backlog of pending court cases
> > and a backlog of police investigations.
> > Of course we could always "contract out" judges.
> >
> >
> >
> You're misunderstanding me. By smaller I mean less agencies. More
police,
> more courts, more judges.
>
> If you only have 3 things to spend money on instead of 3000 you get more.
>


I would tend to agree with you, then. Not that the court and police funtions
would work better, but that government should tend to fewer functions.

Police, fire, schools, roads, regulating development, parks/recreation,
storm water management, and courts have to be done by local public agencies.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
>
> > >
> > > Tell mw why private inspectors would be more resisitant
> > > to bribes than public inspectors.
> > >
> > Because he would be an employee being supervised by the people paying
him,
> > who are more likely to keep a sharp eye on him.
>
> Gimme a break!!
> If private industry were so ethical and responsible as that, we wouldn't
> need inspectors at all.

I didn't say we shouldn't have inspectors, I just said tey shouldn't be
government inspectors. Nor shold they be a requirement, the only
requirement is that the owner is responsible for damages.

Thje workers doing the job are also employees being
> supervised by the people paying them.
>
> > When you have a governemtn
> > agency involved people tend to think that all they need to be assured.
If
> > you are having something built and it's your money on the line, you want
> to
> > make sure the people you pay are giving you your money's worth.
> > It's not "fool" proof, I grat you. Turning it over to government is
less
> > perfect. Private Inspectors would have more to lose.
> >
>
> Corrupt public employee inspectors have lost their jobs, their
> retirements, and have gone to jail.
>

But ehy have also retired with Swiss Bank accounts taking money for
inspection never done or for inspection that weren't up to code, especially
if the code is overkill.

> > > Where I work, we contract with engineering firms for inspectors. The
> > > construction manager, an engineer, is also private, but under a
> different
> > > arrangement, as a contract employee. The overall supervision is from a
> > > government agency.
> > >
> > And you have to wait for their schedule and sometiimes follow rules that
> are
> > overkill.
> >
>
> Not at all!
>
> > > In my area (not engineering), I contract with consultants to do most
of
> > the
> > > actual
> > > work, and I manage the consultants and the projects (not engineeriing)
> > >
> > > As to your assertion about bribery, it is just as likely a private
> > inspecor
> > > would take a bribe, as it is likely a public one would do the same.
> > >
> > I doubt it since they would be paid better the government agents.
> >
> > > As far as government projects, it is ultimatley the government's
> > > responsibility to be sure thery are properly built.
> > >
> > Civil service jobs being the most highly qualified and tightly
controlled?
> > No cost overruns?
> >
>
> We have extremely well qualified engineers in our organization. However,
> they
> really are mmore project managers than nuts and bolt design engineers.
> We actually leave that to our priovate consultanats, and rely on their
> seals on the plans. We tend to find a number of mistakes when we got to
> construction. We don't do technical reviews, because we are not allocated
> enough staff.
>
>
> Cost overruns are actually a political problem. I prepare estimates for my
> functions,
> after I turn them in, they are lowered, to make them more palatable to the
> public.
> Then, whe the project moves forward, and costs come in near my original
> estimate,
> we have an overrun. Also, public projects are susceptible to mission
creep,
> politcos and
> directors lke to addon features as we build it. Then there are always the
> unforeseen
> problems, such as unexpected soil conditions, or a previously unknown
> underground water flow. we do test pits, but only every several hundred
feet
> or so.
>
>
The point still remains that governments require inspections to get money
and to have power, safety is really not their primary concern.
>
>
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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Gimme a break!!
> > If private industry were so ethical and responsible as that, we wouldn't
> > need inspectors at all.
>
> I didn't say we shouldn't have inspectors, I just said tey shouldn't be
> government inspectors. Nor shold they be a requirement, the only
> requirement is that the owner is responsible for damages.
>

You still,ahve not explained why a private inspector is less
susceptible to bribes.


> >
> > Corrupt public employee inspectors have lost their jobs, their
> > retirements, and have gone to jail.
> >
>
> But ehy have also retired with Swiss Bank accounts taking money for
> inspection never done or for inspection that weren't up to code,
especially
> if the code is overkill.
>

In the cases I have heard about, they were getting pitifully
small amounts, like $20 per incident.
No one is retiring on Swiss bank accounts for passing through
a bad load of gravel.



> >
> The point still remains that governments require inspections to get money
> and to have power, safety is really not their primary concern.

That is completely untrue.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Gimme a break!!
> > > If private industry were so ethical and responsible as that, we
wouldn't
> > > need inspectors at all.
> >
> > I didn't say we shouldn't have inspectors, I just said tey shouldn't be
> > government inspectors. Nor shold they be a requirement, the only
> > requirement is that the owner is responsible for damages.
> >
>
> You still,ahve not explained why a private inspector is less
> susceptible to bribes.
>
What would be the incentive? Without the government forcing you to get
inspections the inspections you got would be because you want to know if a
building is being built properly. If they OK something that later falls
down there would be lawsuits.

>
> > >
> > > Corrupt public employee inspectors have lost their jobs, their
> > > retirements, and have gone to jail.
> > >
> >
> > But ehy have also retired with Swiss Bank accounts taking money for
> > inspection never done or for inspection that weren't up to code,
> especially
> > if the code is overkill.
> >
>
> In the cases I have heard about, they were getting pitifully
> small amounts, like $20 per incident.
> No one is retiring on Swiss bank accounts for passing through
> a bad load of gravel.
>
>
>
> > >
> > The point still remains that governments require inspections to get
money
> > and to have power, safety is really not their primary concern.
>
> That is completely untrue.
>
>
>
>
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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > You still,ahve not explained why a private inspector is less
> > susceptible to bribes.
> >
> What would be the incentive? Without the government forcing you to get
> inspections the inspections you got would be because you want to know if a
> building is being built properly. If they OK something that later falls
> down there would be lawsuits.
>

Good one!
You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file lawsuits,
than save lives by preventing the problem.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >
> > > You still,ahve not explained why a private inspector is less
> > > susceptible to bribes.
> > >
> > What would be the incentive? Without the government forcing you to get
> > inspections the inspections you got would be because you want to know if
a
> > building is being built properly. If they OK something that later falls
> > down there would be lawsuits.
> >
>
> Good one!
> You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file
lawsuits,
> than save lives by preventing the problem.
>
>
No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.

This is a strong motivator.
>
>
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[dave weil]

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
>projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
>people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
>beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.

Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
eliminate. Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
you were privately educated. If that's the case, your parents should
sue for their moeny back.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message

> >
> > Good one!
> > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file
> lawsuits,
> > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> >
> >
> No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
> projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
> people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
> beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
>
> This is a strong motivator.

Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the property
soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best financial
interest to have it built as cheaply as possible, and have all knowledge of
any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.




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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
> >projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
> >people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
> >beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
>
> Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
> eliminate. Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
> government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
> you were privately educated. If that's the case, your parents should
> sue for their moeny back.

Evidently, he was educated privately at the Ayn Rand Institute.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
> >projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
> >people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
> >beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
>
> Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
> eliminate.

I want to eliminate things that are not their business. I want government
to protect the rights of its citizens, that is its only logical function.

Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
> government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
> you were privately educated.

I could say the same about all the brainwashed leftists.


If that's the case, your parents should
> sue for their moeny back.

We've never had any "moeny."

You lose.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives
and
> > >projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the
best
> > >people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay
for
> > >beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> >
> > Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
> > eliminate. Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
> > government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
> > you were privately educated. If that's the case, your parents should
> > sue for their moeny back.
>
> Evidently, he was educated privately at the Ayn Rand Institute.
>
>
No, but one could do far worse.

>
>
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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
>
> > >
> > > Good one!
> > > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file
> > lawsuits,
> > > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> > >
> > >
> > No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives
and
> > projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the
best
> > people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
> > beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> >
> > This is a strong motivator.
>
> Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the property
> soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best
financial
> interest to have it built as cheaply as possible,

Not really.

and have all knowledge of
> any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.
>
Which is precisely why a buyer wold want to hire an inspector to make sure
the buyer isn't getting ****ed.
>
>
A rational developer would build something that won't come back to bite him
in court. You seem to think I want to eliminate laws about fraud and
anything that might be pro-consumer.

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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> >
> > > >
> > > > Good one!
> > > > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file
> > > lawsuits,
> > > > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives
> and
> > > projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the
> best
> > > people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay
for
> > > beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> > >
> > > This is a strong motivator.
> >
> > Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the
property
> > soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best
> financial
> > interest to have it built as cheaply as possible,
>
> Not really.
>
> and have all knowledge of
> > any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.
> >
> Which is precisely why a buyer wold want to hire an inspector to make sure
> the buyer isn't getting ****ed.
> >
> >
> A rational developer would build something that won't come back to bite
him
> in court. You seem to think I want to eliminate laws about fraud and
> anything that might be pro-consumer.
>
You have an innate Polyanna-like faith in the ethics of businesses.
This is not consistent with known history. You cn't rely on ethical
business parctices to be conducted in an anarchistic legal climate,
with the only limits for behavior being the ferar of civil lawsuits.

Individuals running businesses really don't care about the risk of
future tort actions. By the time that happens, they are long gone
forom the firm, hooked up with another company, or retired
ona golden parachute. Ethics, as taught in our nations business
schools, concentrates on maximizing shor term profits for the
sahreholders, and keeping the price of the stock high. Spending
extra money (thus lowering profits) on unnefcessary protection
(anything more than the minimum required by law) is actually
viewed as an unethical practice, because it steals profits, thus
higher stock prices, from the shareholders.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good one!
> > > > > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs file
> > > > lawsuits,
> > > > > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own
lives
> > and
> > > > projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the
> > best
> > > > people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay
> for
> > > > beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> > > >
> > > > This is a strong motivator.
> > >
> > > Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the
> property
> > > soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best
> > financial
> > > interest to have it built as cheaply as possible,
> >
> > Not really.
> >
> > and have all knowledge of
> > > any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.
> > >
> > Which is precisely why a buyer wold want to hire an inspector to make
sure
> > the buyer isn't getting ****ed.
> > >
> > >
> > A rational developer would build something that won't come back to bite
> him
> > in court. You seem to think I want to eliminate laws about fraud and
> > anything that might be pro-consumer.
> >
> You have an innate Polyanna-like faith in the ethics of businesses.

I think most people in business are honest and it's only a minority that are
crooked. I also think that when confronted with the choice of being hauled
into court and facing heavy fines or jail time people tend to act in ways
that prevent that from happening.


> This is not consistent with known history. You cn't rely on ethical
> business parctices to be conducted in an anarchistic legal climate,

I'm not calling for an anarchistic legal climate. I don't understand why
you keep thinking this. If anything there would be a less anarchistic
legal climate because we would have more judges and law enforcement due to
the fact that they would not be wasting time and resources chasing
prostitutes, druggies, lap dancers, or any of the host of victimless crimes
they now have to concern themselves with.

> with the only limits for behavior being the ferar of civil lawsuits.
>
You can't sell to someone who isn't going to buy without an honest appraisal
of the merchandise.

> Individuals running businesses really don't care about the risk of
> future tort actions.

I think you are wrong.

By the time that happens, they are long gone
> forom the firm, hooked up with another company, or retired
> ona golden parachute. Ethics, as taught in our nations business
> schools, concentrates on maximizing shor term profits for the
> sahreholders, and keeping the price of the stock high.

All well and good, however you still need customers. If your prodcut or
service isn't good nobody will buy it. Just ask Greg.

Spending
> extra money (thus lowering profits) on unnefcessary protection
> (anything more than the minimum required by law) is actually
> viewed as an unethical practice, because it steals profits, thus
> higher stock prices, from the shareholders.
>
Building a better product that you can actually sell increases profits.
Have a crappy one gets you nothing.
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
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[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good one!
> > > > > > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs
file
> > > > > lawsuits,
> > > > > > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own
> lives
> > > and
> > > > > projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get
the
> > > best
> > > > > people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you
pay
> > for
> > > > > beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a strong motivator.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the
> > property
> > > > soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best
> > > financial
> > > > interest to have it built as cheaply as possible,
> > >
> > > Not really.
> > >
> > > and have all knowledge of
> > > > any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.
> > > >
> > > Which is precisely why a buyer wold want to hire an inspector to make
> sure
> > > the buyer isn't getting ****ed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > A rational developer would build something that won't come back to
bite
> > him
> > > in court. You seem to think I want to eliminate laws about fraud and
> > > anything that might be pro-consumer.
> > >
> > You have an innate Polyanna-like faith in the ethics of businesses.
>
> I think most people in business are honest and it's only a minority that
are
> crooked. I also think that when confronted with the choice of being
hauled
> into court and facing heavy fines or jail time people tend to act in ways
> that prevent that from happening.
>
>
> > This is not consistent with known history. You cn't rely on ethical
> > business parctices to be conducted in an anarchistic legal climate,
>
> I'm not calling for an anarchistic legal climate. I don't understand why
> you keep thinking this. If anything there would be a less anarchistic
> legal climate because we would have more judges and law enforcement due to
> the fact that they would not be wasting time and resources chasing
> prostitutes, druggies, lap dancers, or any of the host of victimless
crimes
> they now have to concern themselves with.
>
> > with the only limits for behavior being the ferar of civil lawsuits.
> >
> You can't sell to someone who isn't going to buy without an honest
appraisal
> of the merchandise.
>
> > Individuals running businesses really don't care about the risk of
> > future tort actions.
>
> I think you are wrong.
>
> By the time that happens, they are long gone
> > forom the firm, hooked up with another company, or retired
> > ona golden parachute. Ethics, as taught in our nations business
> > schools, concentrates on maximizing shor term profits for the
> > sahreholders, and keeping the price of the stock high.
>
> All well and good, however you still need customers. If your prodcut or
> service isn't good nobody will buy it. Just ask Greg.
>
> Spending
> > extra money (thus lowering profits) on unnefcessary protection
> > (anything more than the minimum required by law) is actually
> > viewed as an unethical practice, because it steals profits, thus
> > higher stock prices, from the shareholders.
> >
> Building a better product that you can actually sell increases profits.
> Have a crappy one gets you nothing.
> >

All I need is one word to answer your post:,
BOSE!!!!!!




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[dave weil]

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:35:51 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives and
>> >projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the best
>> >people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay for
>> >beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
>>
>> Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
>> eliminate.
>
>I want to eliminate things that are not their business.

According to you, of course.

> I want government to protect the rights of its citizens, that is its only logical function.

Enforcing building codes is about as far from "protecting the rights
of its citizens" as, say ensuring that people have affordable health
care, for instance.

>Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
>> government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
>> you were privately educated.
>
>I could say the same about all the brainwashed leftists.
>
>
> If that's the case, your parents should
>> sue for their moeny back.
>
>We've never had any "moeny."

You are now your parents?

>You lose.

Au contraire, mon ami, looks like *you* lose.

Again.

[BrianEWilliams]

George M. Middius > wrote in message >...
> From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
>
> A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
>
> Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> inspector paid off.

I come away with a different lesson. It seems apparent that
government failed in this case, not because it is too small, but
because it is too incompetent. Making incompetent enterprises bigger
and giving them more power *might* not be the solution. A better
solution would be to outsource the inspection work to a private firm,
and then when something like this happens, the private firm could be
held accountable and possibly replaced.

[George M. Middius]

BrianEWilliams said:

> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
> >
> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >
> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > inspector paid off.
>
> I come away with a different lesson. It seems apparent that
> government failed in this case, not because it is too small, but
> because it is too incompetent.

I didn't see that. What seemed apparent to me is that insufficient
inspection was done, allowing the construction company, or possibly
the concrete company, to cut corners.

> Making incompetent enterprises bigger
> and giving them more power *might* not be the solution. A better
> solution would be to outsource the inspection work to a private firm,
> and then when something like this happens, the private firm could be
> held accountable and possibly replaced.

That'll be fun. Private companies come and go. Plus you'll need a
whole new set of regulations so that EVERY DOCUMENT such a company
generates is available for inspection. Good luck with your
Corruption Heaven scheme.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"BrianEWilliams" > wrote in message
om...
> George M. Middius > wrote in message
>...
> > From the NYTimes: http://tinyurl.com/t20a
> >
> > A parking garage collapsed, killing somebody.
> >
> > Anybody who says government is too intrusive should face the
> > possibility that the concrete was watered down and the building
> > inspector paid off.
>
> I come away with a different lesson. It seems apparent that
> government failed in this case, not because it is too small, but
> because it is too incompetent. Making incompetent enterprises bigger
> and giving them more power *might* not be the solution. A better
> solution would be to outsource the inspection work to a private firm,
> and then when something like this happens, the private firm could be
> held accountable and possibly replaced.

Real world calling!
The legal term is "deep pockets".
Both the government and the private inspection firm would be sued.
Trust me on this.




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[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:35:51 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:06:01 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own lives
and
> >> >projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get the
best
> >> >people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you pay
for
> >> >beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> >>
> >> Because of the government. The same one that you virtually want to
> >> eliminate.
> >
> >I want to eliminate things that are not their business.
>
> According to you, of course.
>
> > I want government to protect the rights of its citizens, that is its
only logical function.
>
> Enforcing building codes is about as far from "protecting the rights
> of its citizens" as, say ensuring that people have affordable health
> care, for instance.
>
Yes, they are things that the government doesn't do well or does horribly.

> >Of course, you are a pretty good argument for getting the
> >> government out of the education business, unless you can show us that
> >> you were privately educated.
> >
> >I could say the same about all the brainwashed leftists.
> >
> >
> > If that's the case, your parents should
> >> sue for their moeny back.
> >
> >We've never had any "moeny."
>
> You are now your parents?
>
> >You lose.
>
> Au contraire, mon ami, looks like *you* lose.
>
> Again.

At least I can spell money.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good one!
> > > > > > > You would rather see lots of people die and have their heirs
> file
> > > > > > lawsuits,
> > > > > > > than save lives by preventing the problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > No, I would rather see people take responsability for their own
> > lives
> > > > and
> > > > > > projects. If you want you buildings done well make sure you get
> the
> > > > best
> > > > > > people. It is your responsability to make sure you get what you
> pay
> > > for
> > > > > > beccause if it's not right it will cause you enormous grief.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a strong motivator.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course, it is fairly common that the developer woould sell the
> > > property
> > > > > soon after construction is completed. Therefore, it is in his best
> > > > financial
> > > > > interest to have it built as cheaply as possible,
> > > >
> > > > Not really.
> > > >
> > > > and have all knowledge of
> > > > > any defects kept hidden from his buyer. That maximizes profit.
> > > > >
> > > > Which is precisely why a buyer wold want to hire an inspector to
make
> > sure
> > > > the buyer isn't getting ****ed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > A rational developer would build something that won't come back to
> bite
> > > him
> > > > in court. You seem to think I want to eliminate laws about fraud
and
> > > > anything that might be pro-consumer.
> > > >
> > > You have an innate Polyanna-like faith in the ethics of businesses.
> >
> > I think most people in business are honest and it's only a minority that
> are
> > crooked. I also think that when confronted with the choice of being
> hauled
> > into court and facing heavy fines or jail time people tend to act in
ways
> > that prevent that from happening.
> >
> >
> > > This is not consistent with known history. You cn't rely on ethical
> > > business parctices to be conducted in an anarchistic legal climate,
> >
> > I'm not calling for an anarchistic legal climate. I don't understand
why
> > you keep thinking this. If anything there would be a less anarchistic
> > legal climate because we would have more judges and law enforcement due
to
> > the fact that they would not be wasting time and resources chasing
> > prostitutes, druggies, lap dancers, or any of the host of victimless
> crimes
> > they now have to concern themselves with.
> >
> > > with the only limits for behavior being the ferar of civil lawsuits.
> > >
> > You can't sell to someone who isn't going to buy without an honest
> appraisal
> > of the merchandise.
> >
> > > Individuals running businesses really don't care about the risk of
> > > future tort actions.
> >
> > I think you are wrong.
> >
> > By the time that happens, they are long gone
> > > forom the firm, hooked up with another company, or retired
> > > ona golden parachute. Ethics, as taught in our nations business
> > > schools, concentrates on maximizing shor term profits for the
> > > sahreholders, and keeping the price of the stock high.
> >
> > All well and good, however you still need customers. If your prodcut or
> > service isn't good nobody will buy it. Just ask Greg.
> >
> > Spending
> > > extra money (thus lowering profits) on unnefcessary protection
> > > (anything more than the minimum required by law) is actually
> > > viewed as an unethical practice, because it steals profits, thus
> > > higher stock prices, from the shareholders.
> > >
> > Building a better product that you can actually sell increases profits.
> > Have a crappy one gets you nothing.
> > >
>
> All I need is one word to answer your post:,
> BOSE!!!!!!
>
Obviously Bose is not a product for those interested in the finest possible
reproduction of music. IT DOES HOWEVER fill a need. It is not life
threatening. I think most people buying most BOSE products these days are
buying name recognition and size. Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
until you compare it to a better one.

It terms of it being crappy, I assume you mean sound since their build
quality seems to be OK, I never owned any so I can't say for sure. The wave
radio IS pretty impressive for it's size.
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
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=---

[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:19:02 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> > If that's the case, your parents should
>> >> sue for their moeny back.
>> >
>> >We've never had any "moeny."
>>
>> You are now your parents?
>>
>> >You lose.
>>
>> Au contraire, mon ami, looks like *you* lose.
>>
>> Again.
>
>At least I can spell money.

You really *don't* want to play the spelling card, my friend. Many of
your ubiquitous misspellings aren't just typos, you know.

And that pesky pronoun problem is another one of your nasty little
secrets revealed.

[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>Almost any speaker sound fairly decent

Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:19:02 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >> > If that's the case, your parents should
> >> >> sue for their moeny back.
> >> >
> >> >We've never had any "moeny."
> >>
> >> You are now your parents?
> >>
> >> >You lose.
> >>
> >> Au contraire, mon ami, looks like *you* lose.
> >>
> >> Again.
> >
> >At least I can spell money.
>
> You really *don't* want to play the spelling card, my friend. Many of
> your ubiquitous misspellings aren't just typos, you know.
>
> And that pesky pronoun problem is another one of your nasty little
> secrets revealed.

I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the one
who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
>
> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.

Add a real job to your resume wait person.

[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the one
>who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
>convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.

The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
literate.

Big difference.

You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
ebb. Which is it?

PS, was "convesationally" for effect?

[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
>>
>> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.
>
>Add a real job to your resume wait person.

I see. You don't think that serving your country in the Army is a
"real job".

Fine.

At least I have a job that I can talk about in a public forum, unlike
you, apparently.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the one
> >who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
> >convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.
>
> The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
> effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
> literate.
>
> Big difference.
>
Yes there is. To bad you don't know which is which.

> You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
> ebb. Which is it?
>
> PS, was "convesationally" for effect?

To bad you can't tell a typo when you see it. Why aren't you this obsessive
over other people's mistakes, including your own.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
> >>
> >> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.
> >
> >Add a real job to your resume wait person.
>
> I see. You don't think that serving your country in the Army is a
> "real job".
>
> Fine.

To bad you couldn't convert your military skills into something that require
a bit more brain power, maybe then you'd stop worrying about my typing.

>
> At least I have a job that I can talk about in a public forum, unlike
> you, apparently.

I can, I just choose not to. Look where it got you.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
> > >>
> > >> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.
> > >
> > >Add a real job to your resume wait person.
> >
> > I see. You don't think that serving your country in the Army is a
> > "real job".
> >
> > Fine.
>
> To bad you couldn't convert your military skills into something that
require
> a bit more brain power, maybe then you'd stop worrying about my typing.
>
> >
> > At least I have a job that I can talk about in a public forum, unlike
> > you, apparently.
>
> I can, I just choose not to. Look where it got you.
>
>

This conversation sounds like a recent one I had with Arny.
If Mikey wants to keep it private, that's his business. However,
I would like to hear his opinion on Arny making all kinds
of wild accusatons about me, based upon my refusal to
talk about my profession.




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[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the one
>> >who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
>> >convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.
>>
>> The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
>> effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
>> literate.
>>
>> Big difference.
>>
>Yes there is. To bad you don't know which is which.

Ahhh, but I do.

>> You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
>> ebb. Which is it?
>>
>> PS, was "convesationally" for effect?
>
>To bad you can't tell a typo when you see it.

You mean like claiming that I can't spell money?

Right.

>Why aren't you this obsessive
>over other people's mistakes, including your own.

Why are *you*?

Answer that and you might have your answer.

[dave weil]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
>> >>
>> >> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.
>> >
>> >Add a real job to your resume wait person.
>>
>> I see. You don't think that serving your country in the Army is a
>> "real job".
>>
>> Fine.
>
>To bad you couldn't convert your military skills into something that require
>a bit more brain power, maybe then you'd stop worrying about my typing.

I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
required to be a successful server.

>> At least I have a job that I can talk about in a public forum, unlike
>> you, apparently.
>
>I can, I just choose not to. Look where it got you.

Where did it get me? Having bozos speak out of ignorance about my job?
That doesn't hurt *me*. I'm perfectly capable of defending my job,
coward. Look where you promoting your speakers in an audio forum got
you. Now *that's* embarrassing.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the
one
> >> >who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
> >> >convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.
> >>
> >> The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
> >> effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
> >> literate.
> >>
> >> Big difference.
> >>
> >Yes there is. To bad you don't know which is which.
>
> Ahhh, but I do.
>

Not so's you'd notice.

> >> You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
> >> ebb. Which is it?
> >>
> >> PS, was "convesationally" for effect?
> >
> >To bad you can't tell a typo when you see it.
>
> You mean like claiming that I can't spell money?
>
> Right.
>
> >Why aren't you this obsessive
> >over other people's mistakes, including your own.
>
> Why are *you*?
>
I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play. Don't comment on something as
insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't comment on yours.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:24:41 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Almost any speaker sound fairly decent
> >> >>
> >> >> Add subject/verb agreement to your egregiousness.
> >> >
> >> >Add a real job to your resume wait person.
> >>
> >> I see. You don't think that serving your country in the Army is a
> >> "real job".
> >>
> >> Fine.
> >
> >To bad you couldn't convert your military skills into something that
require
> >a bit more brain power, maybe then you'd stop worrying about my typing.
>
> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
> required to be a successful server.
>
Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really lame
most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of the
reasons I got out.

> >> At least I have a job that I can talk about in a public forum, unlike
> >> you, apparently.
> >
> >I can, I just choose not to. Look where it got you.
>
> Where did it get me? Having bozos speak out of ignorance about my job?
> That doesn't hurt *me*. I'm perfectly capable of defending my job,
> coward.

I capable, it's just that RAO is not the place I want to do it.

Look where you promoting your speakers in an audio forum got
> you. Now *that's* embarrassing.

Why? It was a period where I had lots of free time after recovering from
knee surgery. I wanted to feel productive so I tried turning my hobby into
a business. Most new businesses fail, irrespective of how good the product
is. Vergence for example.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:53:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are the
>one
>> >> >who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I write
>> >> >convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.
>> >>
>> >> The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
>> >> effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
>> >> literate.
>> >>
>> >> Big difference.
>> >>
>> >Yes there is. To bad you don't know which is which.
>>
>> Ahhh, but I do.
>>
>
>Not so's you'd notice.

How is it that you butcher the language almost *every* post?

>> >> You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
>> >> ebb. Which is it?
>> >>
>> >> PS, was "convesationally" for effect?
>> >
>> >To bad you can't tell a typo when you see it.
>>
>> You mean like claiming that I can't spell money?
>>
>> Right.
>>
>> >Why aren't you this obsessive
>> >over other people's mistakes, including your own.
>>
>> Why are *you*?
>>
>I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play.

Good god man, you're pathetic.

> Don't comment on something as
>insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't comment on yours.

Spelling and typing are "insignificant"? Are you blaming this sort of
education-bashing on the Democrats as well?

I've made this point before, but here goes again. Everyone makes the
occasional typo. I think that when someone almost can't post without
significant errors, they're fair game for ridicule.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
>> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
>> required to be a successful server.
>>
>Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really lame
>most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of the
>reasons I got out.

Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.

I get it now.

But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking the
fries this time around.

[Arny Krueger]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message


> I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play. Don't comment on
> something as insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't
> comment on yours.

A dominatrix like Weil doesn't believe in "Turnabout is fair play". After
all, if there was true turnabout, they'd be dead meat.

[Arny Krueger]

"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message


> Most new businesses fail, irrespective of how
> good the product is. Vergence for example.

Begging the question how Ken's new subwoofer project is coming along...

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:36:21 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message

>
>> I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play. Don't comment on
>> something as insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't
>> comment on yours.
>
>A dominatrix like Weil doesn't believe in "Turnabout is fair play". After
>all, if there was true turnabout, they'd be dead meat.

Still having problems with gender I see.

Figures.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:53:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:24:36 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >I'm not the one who likes to lord it over people though. You are
the
> >one
> >> >> >who seems to have a problem with other people making typos. I
write
> >> >> >convesationally, sometimes using words improperly for effect.
> >> >>
> >> >> The above is a mess of rationalizations. You claim to do things "for
> >> >> effect". I claim that it's because you're only semi-functionally
> >> >> literate.
> >> >>
> >> >> Big difference.
> >> >>
> >> >Yes there is. To bad you don't know which is which.
> >>
> >> Ahhh, but I do.
> >>
> >
> >Not so's you'd notice.
>
> How is it that you butcher the language almost *every* post?
>
> >> >> You're either intentionally lying or your self-awareness is at a low
> >> >> ebb. Which is it?
> >> >>
> >> >> PS, was "convesationally" for effect?
> >> >
> >> >To bad you can't tell a typo when you see it.
> >>
> >> You mean like claiming that I can't spell money?
> >>
> >> Right.
> >>
> >> >Why aren't you this obsessive
> >> >over other people's mistakes, including your own.
> >>
> >> Why are *you*?
> >>
> >I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play.
>
> Good god man, you're pathetic.
>
> > Don't comment on something as
> >insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't comment on yours.
>
> Spelling and typing are "insignificant"? Are you blaming this sort of
> education-bashing on the Democrats as well?
>
> I've made this point before, but here goes again. Everyone makes the
> occasional typo. I think that when someone almost can't post without
> significant errors, they're fair game for ridicule.
>
I guess that's where we differ, I care more about what's being said than I
do about how. You don't seem to have any trouble understanding my meaning,
so it can't be as bad as you go on about. If it's so bothersome STOP
READING WHAT I WRITE! Then you won't look like such an obsessive compulsive
for complaining about it.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
> >> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
> >> required to be a successful server.
> >>
> >Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really
lame
> >most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of the
> >reasons I got out.
>
> Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.
>
> I get it now.
>
I doubt you get much of anything. You too busy correcting spelling. As I
said I got sick of the class of people one has to work with. Then there's
the hours, the dirt and pain from all that standing.

> But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
> automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking the
> fries this time around.

I was more concerned with not overcooking the roux.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:14:14 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> >I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play.
>>
>> Good god man, you're pathetic.
>>
>> > Don't comment on something as
>> >insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't comment on yours.
>>
>> Spelling and typing are "insignificant"? Are you blaming this sort of
>> education-bashing on the Democrats as well?
>>
>> I've made this point before, but here goes again. Everyone makes the
>> occasional typo. I think that when someone almost can't post without
>> significant errors, they're fair game for ridicule.
>>
>I guess that's where we differ, I care more about what's being said than I
>do about how. You don't seem to have any trouble understanding my meaning,
>so it can't be as bad as you go on about. If it's so bothersome STOP
>READING WHAT I WRITE! Then you won't look like such an obsessive compulsive
>for complaining about it.

That didn't stop you from the "turnabout" thing, now did it?

You really*don't* care about what's being said. You only care about
the portion that dovetails with what you believe.

At least you've gotten off of the obsessive Trotsky-bashing phase.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:17:50 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
>> >> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
>> >> required to be a successful server.
>> >>
>> >Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really
>lame
>> >most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of the
>> >reasons I got out.
>>
>> Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.
>>
>> I get it now.
>>
>I doubt you get much of anything. You too busy correcting spelling.

<s******>

> As I said I got sick of the class of people one has to work with. Then there's
>the hours, the dirt and pain from all that standing.

Awwww, pumpkin...all that standing...

>> But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
>> automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking the
>> fries this time around.
>
>I was more concerned with not overcooking the roux.

Jeez! You had problems with a ROUX? No wonder you got out of the biz.
You couldn't even master the most rudimentary culinary skill.

Actually, in the words of Greg Singh, you're starting to peg the
bull**** meter. I think that you're just bull****ting now. You
couldn't have ever been a CHEF if you had to worry about "overcooking"
a roux.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:17:50 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
> >> >> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
> >> >> required to be a successful server.
> >> >>
> >> >Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really
> >lame
> >> >most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of
the
> >> >reasons I got out.
> >>
> >> Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.
> >>
> >> I get it now.
> >>
> >I doubt you get much of anything. You're too busy correcting spelling.
>
>
> > As I said I got sick of the class of people one has to work with. Then
there's
> >the hours, the dirt and pain from all that standing.
>
> Awwww, pumpkin...all that standing...
>
Yeah, all that standing, makes my feet and back hurt, the pay's not great
either.

> >> But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
> >> automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking the
> >> fries this time around.
> >
> >I was more concerned with not overcooking the roux.
>
> Jeez! You had problems with a ROUX?

Not what I said, but then I'm not surpised you got it wrong, it's what you
do.

No wonder you got out of the biz.
> You couldn't even master the most rudimentary culinary skill.
>
Again it's not what I said or even implied.

> Actually, in the words of Greg Singh, you're starting to peg the
> bull**** meter. I think that you're just bull****ting now. You
> couldn't have ever been a CHEF if you had to worry about "overcooking"
> a roux.
And I never did overcook one. I could explain it but you'd just **** up on
interpretation again.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:14:14 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >> >I'm not. I's called turnabout is fair play.
> >>
> >> Good god man, you're pathetic.
> >>
> >> > Don't comment on something as
> >> >insignificant as my spelling and typing and I won't comment on yours.
> >>
> >> Spelling and typing are "insignificant"? Are you blaming this sort of
> >> education-bashing on the Democrats as well?
> >>
> >> I've made this point before, but here goes again. Everyone makes the
> >> occasional typo. I think that when someone almost can't post without
> >> significant errors, they're fair game for ridicule.
> >>
> >I guess that's where we differ, I care more about what's being said than
I
> >do about how. You don't seem to have any trouble understanding my
meaning,
> >so it can't be as bad as you go on about. If it's so bothersome STOP
> >READING WHAT I WRITE! Then you won't look like such an obsessive
compulsive
> >for complaining about it.
>
> That didn't stop you from the "turnabout" thing, now did it?
>
> You really*don't* care about what's being said. You only care about
> the portion that dovetails with what you believe.
>
Mindreading again? I care about conversation. One of my best friends is
brilliant in many ways, spelling is just not one of them. It doesn't
diminish his ability or his worthinness as my freind or fellow human.

> At least you've gotten off of the obsessive Trotsky-bashing phase.

It's been done to death for now. When it's no longer fun why bother?

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:27:06 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:17:50 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field. It's
>> >> >> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
>> >> >> required to be a successful server.
>> >> >>
>> >> >Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how really
>> >lame
>> >> >most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of
>the
>> >> >reasons I got out.
>> >>
>> >> Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.
>> >>
>> >> I get it now.
>> >>
>> >I doubt you get much of anything. You're too busy correcting spelling.
>>
>>
>> > As I said I got sick of the class of people one has to work with. Then
>there's
>> >the hours, the dirt and pain from all that standing.
>>
>> Awwww, pumpkin...all that standing...
>>
>Yeah, all that standing, makes my feet and back hurt, the pay's not great
>either.

*Real* chefs make really good money. Ours does.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy about having to stand. I sure
know that *I* don't whine about it. And I don't even have the option
to sit down on occasion like a chef does.

>> >> But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
>> >> automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking the
>> >> fries this time around.
>> >
>> >I was more concerned with not overcooking the roux.
>>
>> Jeez! You had problems with a ROUX?
>
>Not what I said, but then I'm not surpised you got it wrong, it's what you
>do.

If you have to be concerned about overcooking the roux, you've got
problems. Hell, I'm not a chef, but I can do a perfect roux everytime.
It's not rocket science and for a *real* chef, it's about as hard as
cooking a two minute egg with a two minute egg timer.

>No wonder you got out of the biz.
>> You couldn't even master the most rudimentary culinary skill.
>>
>Again it's not what I said or even implied.

Sure you did.

>> Actually, in the words of Greg Singh, you're starting to peg the
>> bull**** meter. I think that you're just bull****ting now. You
>> couldn't have ever been a CHEF if you had to worry about "overcooking"
>> a roux.
>And I never did overcook one. I could explain it but you'd just **** up on
>interpretation again.

The point is, you have to be a screwup to even have to worry about
overcooking one. If you were *really* a chef, you'd know this. That's
why I don't think you were a real CHEF. A cook, maybe. But I even
doubt that. Maybe you could supply details. You don't have to tell
where you worked or anything, you know.

[George M. Middius]

dave weil said to the Bug Eater:

> You couldn't have ever been a CHEF if you had to worry about "overcooking"
> a roux.

Hasn't duh boasted of "frying" amplifiers? His resume is probably
pretty scary.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:27:06 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:17:50 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:58:52 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'd bet the ranch that you couldn't be a success in my field.
It's
> >> >> >> guys like you have have no idea about the "brain power" that's
> >> >> >> required to be a successful server.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >Ahhh, but I do. Having spent a few years as a chef I know how
really
> >> >lame
> >> >> >most them are and how they have lives I wouldn't want. It's one of
> >the
> >> >> >reasons I got out.
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh, couldn't cut in the culinary field.
> >> >>
> >> >> I get it now.
> >> >>
> >> >I doubt you get much of anything. You're too busy correcting
spelling.
> >>
> >>
> >> > As I said I got sick of the class of people one has to work with.
Then
> >there's
> >> >the hours, the dirt and pain from all that standing.
> >>
> >> Awwww, pumpkin...all that standing...
> >>
> >Yeah, all that standing, makes my feet and back hurt, the pay's not great
> >either.
>
> *Real* chefs make really good money. Ours does.
>
If you stay with it for years sure. I chose not too.

> Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy about having to stand. I sure
> know that *I* don't whine about it. And I don't even have the option
> to sit down on occasion like a chef does.
>
You don't have arthritis and spinal stenosis either.

> >> >> But listen, maybe you want to give it another try. McDonalds now has
> >> >> automated deep fryers. You won't have to worry about undercooking
the
> >> >> fries this time around.
> >> >
> >> >I was more concerned with not overcooking the roux.
> >>
> >> Jeez! You had problems with a ROUX?
> >
> >Not what I said, but then I'm not surpised you got it wrong, it's what
you
> >do.
>
> If you have to be concerned about overcooking the roux, you've got
> problems. Hell, I'm not a chef, but I can do a perfect roux everytime.
> It's not rocket science and for a *real* chef, it's about as hard as
> cooking a two minute egg with a two minute egg timer.
>
> >No wonder you got out of the biz.
> >> You couldn't even master the most rudimentary culinary skill.
> >>
> >Again it's not what I said or even implied.
>
> Sure you did.
>
More mind reading.

> >> Actually, in the words of Greg Singh, you're starting to peg the
> >> bull**** meter. I think that you're just bull****ting now. You
> >> couldn't have ever been a CHEF if you had to worry about "overcooking"
> >> a roux.
> >And I never did overcook one. I could explain it but you'd just **** up
on
> >interpretation again.
>
> The point is, you have to be a screwup to even have to worry about
> overcooking one. If you were *really* a chef, you'd know this.

I do know this. It was a respnse to your comment of burning French Fries.

That's
> why I don't think you were a real CHEF. A cook, maybe. But I even
> doubt that. Maybe you could supply details. You don't have to tell
> where you worked or anything, you know.

I'm not supplying you with more stuff to misrepresent and spin into your own
little word game.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:56:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> *Real* chefs make really good money. Ours does.
>>
>If you stay with it for years sure. I chose not too.

He's been a chef for exactly 2 years. Before that, he spent 4 years in
various sous-chef situations.

You don't appear to know anything about the business, so the bull****
meter just keeps pegging.

Maybe you're confusing the term chef for cook.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:56:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy about having to stand. I sure
>> know that *I* don't whine about it. And I don't even have the option
>> to sit down on occasion like a chef does.
>>
>You don't have arthritis and spinal stenosis either.

I have the onset of the first and I also have lower back problems that
can almost cripple me when at its worst. I also have a deteriorating
right hip joint, but that's probably only going to be a problem in 10
years. Right now, it just hurts like hell on occasion.

But no, I don't take narcotics like you do.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:56:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:

>> The point is, you have to be a screwup to even have to worry about
>> overcooking one. If you were *really* a chef, you'd know this.
>
>I do know this. It was a respnse to your comment of burning French Fries.

You can't even read, can you. I never accused you of *burning* french
fries. I said exactly the opposite.

You really *are* a dense little twit.

Here's the deal. I don't believe that you ever worked in a commercial
kitchen.

[George M. Middius]

dave weil said:

> Maybe you're confusing the term chef for cook.

Or for dishwasher.

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Most new businesses fail, irrespective of how
> > good the product is. Vergence for example.
>
> Begging the question how Ken's new subwoofer project is coming along...
>
>

I can give you a good deal on commas, 10 cents a dozen.
Here are some free samples to get you started:
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,




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[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:29:10 -0600, dave weil >
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:56:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> wrote:
>
>>> Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy about having to stand. I sure
>>> know that *I* don't whine about it. And I don't even have the option
>>> to sit down on occasion like a chef does.
>>>
>>You don't have arthritis and spinal stenosis either.
>
>I have the onset of the first and I also have lower back problems that
>can almost cripple me when at its worst. I also have a deteriorating
>right hip joint, but that's probably only going to be a problem in 10
>years. Right now, it just hurts like hell on occasion.
>
>But no, I don't take narcotics like you do.

I told you that it was a bad idea. . .
http://members.chello.nl/g.wammes/images/waterskieen.jpg

[Marc Phillips]

Yustabe said:

>"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>> "Michael Mckelvy" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > Most new businesses fail, irrespective of how
>> > good the product is. Vergence for example.
>>
>> Begging the question how Ken's new subwoofer project is coming along...
>>
>>
>
>I can give you a good deal on commas, 10 cents a dozen.
>Here are some free samples to get you started:
>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>

Arny still doesn't understand how the inclusion or exclusion of a single comma
can completely change the meaning of a sentence. Watch him bitch and complain
about having his "typos" corrected again.

Boon

[George M. Middius]

Sockpuppet Yustabe said to ****-for-Brains:

> > Begging the question how Ken's new subwoofer project is coming along...

> I can give you a good deal on commas, 10 cents a dozen.
> Here are some free samples to get you started:
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yes, Arnii, put them with the apostrophes I gave you years ago.

[Michael Mckelvy]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:56:43 -0800, "Michael Mckelvy"
> > wrote:
>
> >> Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy about having to stand. I sure
> >> know that *I* don't whine about it. And I don't even have the option
> >> to sit down on occasion like a chef does.
> >>
> >You don't have arthritis and spinal stenosis either.
>
> I have the onset of the first and I also have lower back problems that
> can almost cripple me when at its worst. I also have a deteriorating
> right hip joint, but that's probably only going to be a problem in 10
> years. Right now, it just hurts like hell on occasion.
>
> But no, I don't take narcotics like you do.

Be thankful.