tech question for Arny; mp3

[Robert Morein]

I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accomodate a standard depth radio. I
want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the speakers
and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all, that mp3 and an
FM modulator would be a good choice. CD changers scratch CDs and probably
provide no audible difference, except with the finest car systems.

What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how many hours
per gigabyte does one obtain?

The design that I desire would be a walkman size box that can sit on the car
seat, perhaps with a remote that can be attached to the steering wheel.
However, any form factor which is not in-dash could be used.

Are there any players which incorporate the following features?

a built-in FM modulator?

multilevel menus that can be edited on a PC

replaceable/upgradeable memory, ie., swappable drives?

purchasable as an OEM product, so I can install my own 80 gig drive?

[Lionel]

Robert Morein wrote:

> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accomodate a standard depth radio. I
> want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the speakers
> and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all, that mp3 and an
> FM modulator would be a good choice. CD changers scratch CDs and probably
> provide no audible difference, except with the finest car systems.
>
> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how many hours
> per gigabyte does one obtain?
>

You should test by yourself is this specific "environment".
The best way for me is to burn a CD with a compressed track you
perfectly know.
Each copy of the track could have different codec and/or different bitrate.
If you have free time you can go from :

---> 64 kbps - VBR - forced stereo
to
---> http://flac.sourceforge.net/ or one of his cousin.

It's a bunch of possible combinations.

I stop here because I know that Arnold doesn't like some guys answer to
*his* questions. ;-)


> The design that I desire would be a walkman size box that can sit on the car
> seat, perhaps with a remote that can be attached to the steering wheel.
> However, any form factor which is not in-dash could be used.
>
> Are there any players which incorporate the following features?
>
> a built-in FM modulator?
>
> multilevel menus that can be edited on a PC
>
> replaceable/upgradeable memory, ie., swappable drives?
>
> purchasable as an OEM product, so I can install my own 80 gig drive?
>
>
>

[Robert Morein]

All good suggestions.
I'm looking for some pre-purchase guidelines, so I can figure out whether I
can store a reasonable library on one of these devices.

Besides, the gadget may not exist.
I really would like one with a built-in FM modulator to avoid a tangle of
cords on the car seat.

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Morein wrote:
>
> > I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accomodate a standard depth radio.
I
> > want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> > It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the
speakers
> > and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all, that mp3 and
an
> > FM modulator would be a good choice. CD changers scratch CDs and
probably
> > provide no audible difference, except with the finest car systems.
> >
> > What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how many
hours
> > per gigabyte does one obtain?
> >
>
> You should test by yourself is this specific "environment".
> The best way for me is to burn a CD with a compressed track you
> perfectly know.
> Each copy of the track could have different codec and/or different
bitrate.
> If you have free time you can go from :
>
> ---> 64 kbps - VBR - forced stereo
> to
> ---> http://flac.sourceforge.net/ or one of his cousin.
>
> It's a bunch of possible combinations.
>
> I stop here because I know that Arnold doesn't like some guys answer to
> *his* questions. ;-)
>
>
> > The design that I desire would be a walkman size box that can sit on the
car
> > seat, perhaps with a remote that can be attached to the steering wheel.
> > However, any form factor which is not in-dash could be used.
> >
> > Are there any players which incorporate the following features?
> >
> > a built-in FM modulator?
> >
> > multilevel menus that can be edited on a PC
> >
> > replaceable/upgradeable memory, ie., swappable drives?
> >
> > purchasable as an OEM product, so I can install my own 80 gig drive?
> >
> >
> >
>

[Sockpuppet Yustabe]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
> All good suggestions.
> I'm looking for some pre-purchase guidelines, so I can figure out whether
I
> can store a reasonable library on one of these devices.
>
> Besides, the gadget may not exist.
> I really would like one with a built-in FM modulator to avoid a tangle of
> cords on the car seat.
>
Convert it into the ****ty range of the lousy FM band. Good idea!
Now you have no need to worry about the quality of the source.




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[Arny Krueger]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message

> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
> radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the
> speakers and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all,
> that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good choice.

You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an automotive
environment, even with modest investments.

> CD changers
> scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except with
> the finest car systems.

I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.

> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
> many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?

I know of none.

> The design that I desire would be a walkman size box that can sit on
> the car seat, perhaps with a remote that can be attached to the
> steering wheel. However, any form factor which is not in-dash could
> be used.

> Are there any players which incorporate the following features?

> a built-in FM modulator?

I know of none. I wouldn't use a FM modulator except under extreme duress.

> multilevel menus that can be edited on a PC

I know of none.

> replaceable/upgradeable memory, ie., swappable drives?

I know of none. AFAIK hard drive players for cars are at this time stand
alone units and not incorporated into standard car radio chassis.

> purchasable as an OEM product, so I can install my own 80 gig drive?

I know of none.

Best place to ask questions about car audio head unit features is probably
rec.audio.car

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
> > I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
> > radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> > It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the
> > speakers and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all,
> > that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good choice.
>
> You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an automotive
> environment, even with modest investments.
>
No, I don't. The car is handicapped by a radio depth of 3", and by ambient
noise that is higher than a typical home listening environment.
Furthermore, the extreme vulnerability of the Subaru's frameless windows to
breakin makes me loath to put money into a car to make it theft bait.
Therefore, the optimal solution is a one-piece mp3 player/modulator that I
can take with me. Too bad it doesn't exist.

Nevertheless, the sound is acceptable to me.


> > CD changers
> > scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except with
> > the finest car systems.
>
> I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.
I have two damn many thousands of CDs. I don't have space to store
duplicates.
>
> > What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
> > many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?
>
> I know of none.
I see I'm not aware of your position on the mp3 codec. I thought --
mistakenly -- that you felt there was some bitrate at which it becomes
transparent. How about the Minidisc codec?

[snip] My desires outrun the current state of gadgets.

[Robert Morein]

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All good suggestions.
> > I'm looking for some pre-purchase guidelines, so I can figure out
whether
> I
> > can store a reasonable library on one of these devices.
> >
> > Besides, the gadget may not exist.
> > I really would like one with a built-in FM modulator to avoid a tangle
of
> > cords on the car seat.
> >
> Convert it into the ****ty range of the lousy FM band. Good idea!
> Now you have no need to worry about the quality of the source.
>
See my other post. Reality intervenes; when I travel to NY or center Philly,
I park on the street. The car looks like (and is) a plain Jane, and I want
to keep it that way. The car has frameless windows; it is utterly
defenseless against breakin. Consequently, no valuable electronics can be
left in the car.

All things are possible with: collision insurance, Lowjack, and a
hypothetical high performance radio that requires only the 3" of depth
Subaru provided for this model.

[Arny Krueger]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...

>> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>>
>>> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
>>> radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
>>> It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the
>>> speakers and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all,
>>> that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good choice.
>
>> You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an automotive
>> environment, even with modest investments.

> No, I don't.

Gee, let's be really mature here. I say "Yes you do", and you say "No I
don't" and this goes on for about 26 cycles posts and we look like Singh,
Weil and Middius. Welcome to RAO!

> The car is handicapped by a radio depth of 3",

These are the days of amazing things done with microelectronics.

> and by ambient noise that is higher than a typical home listening
> environment.

That depends on the car, but again there are some trade-offs. The *room* is
small, well-padded and you have to sit *really* close to most of the
speakers. Good car audio buys some dynamic range by providing respectable
maximum levels, facilitated by the small room and close speaker placement.

> Furthermore, the extreme vulnerability of the Subaru's
> frameless windows to breakin makes me loath to put money into a car
> to make it theft bait.

That would be a situation that is specific to your special case.

> Therefore, the optimal solution is a one-piece
> mp3 player/modulator that I can take with me. Too bad it doesn't
> exist.

Well you could plug an off-the-shelf battery-powered modulator into a Nomad
Jukebox and have thousands of MP3 files and/or 100's of .wav files at your
disposal.

> Nevertheless, the sound is acceptable to me.

Whatever that means.

>>> CD changers
>>> scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except with
>>> the finest car systems.

>> I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.

> I have two damn many thousands of CDs. I don't have space to store
> duplicates.

I just keep them in the car and when they get too scratched, there's enough
trash cans in the world to hold them.

>>> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
>>> many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?

>> I know of none.

> I see I'm not aware of your position on the mp3 codec. I thought --
> mistakenly -- that you felt there was some bitrate at which it becomes
> transparent. How about the Minidisc codec?

Ditto. You know if you ever actually went to www.pcabx.com you'd know crap
like this. But far be if for you to lower yourself to educate yourself...

> [snip] My desires outrun the current state of gadgets.

The Nomad (or iPod) with RF modulator would do the trick you seem to be
willing to subsist with...

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
> >>> radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> >>> It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the
> >>> speakers and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all,
> >>> that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good choice.
> >
> >> You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an automotive
> >> environment, even with modest investments.
>
> > No, I don't.
>
> Gee, let's be really mature here. I say "Yes you do", and you say "No I
> don't" and this goes on for about 26 cycles posts and we look like Singh,
> Weil and Middius. Welcome to RAO!
>
> > The car is handicapped by a radio depth of 3",
>
> These are the days of amazing things done with microelectronics.
>
> > and by ambient noise that is higher than a typical home listening
> > environment.
>
> That depends on the car, but again there are some trade-offs. The *room*
is
> small, well-padded and you have to sit *really* close to most of the
> speakers. Good car audio buys some dynamic range by providing respectable
> maximum levels, facilitated by the small room and close speaker placement.
>
> > Furthermore, the extreme vulnerability of the Subaru's
> > frameless windows to breakin makes me loath to put money into a car
> > to make it theft bait.
>
> That would be a situation that is specific to your special case.
>
> > Therefore, the optimal solution is a one-piece
> > mp3 player/modulator that I can take with me. Too bad it doesn't
> > exist.
>
> Well you could plug an off-the-shelf battery-powered modulator into a
Nomad
> Jukebox and have thousands of MP3 files and/or 100's of .wav files at your
> disposal.
>
> > Nevertheless, the sound is acceptable to me.
>
> Whatever that means.
>
> >>> CD changers
> >>> scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except with
> >>> the finest car systems.
>
> >> I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.
>
> > I have two damn many thousands of CDs. I don't have space to store
> > duplicates.
>
> I just keep them in the car and when they get too scratched, there's
enough
> trash cans in the world to hold them.
>
> >>> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
> >>> many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?
>
> >> I know of none.
>
> > I see I'm not aware of your position on the mp3 codec. I thought --
> > mistakenly -- that you felt there was some bitrate at which it becomes
> > transparent. How about the Minidisc codec?
>
> Ditto. You know if you ever actually went to www.pcabx.com you'd know crap
> like this. But far be if for you to lower yourself to educate yourself...
>
> > [snip] My desires outrun the current state of gadgets.
>
> The Nomad (or iPod) with RF modulator would do the trick you seem to be
> willing to subsist with...
>
Nasty, nasty. Perhaps a good lawsuit is what you need.

[Arny Krueger]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>
>>>> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
>>>>> radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something
>>>>> better. It occurred to me that considering the relative
>>>>> mediocrity of the speakers and amplification, and the great cost
>>>>> of replacing it all, that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good
>>>>> choice.
>>>
>>>> You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an
>>>> automotive environment, even with modest investments.
>>
>>> No, I don't.
>>
>> Gee, let's be really mature here. I say "Yes you do", and you say
>> "No I don't" and this goes on for about 26 cycles posts and we look
>> like Singh, Weil and Middius. Welcome to RAO!
>>
>>> The car is handicapped by a radio depth of 3",
>>
>> These are the days of amazing things done with microelectronics.
>>
>>> and by ambient noise that is higher than a typical home listening
>>> environment.
>>
>> That depends on the car, but again there are some trade-offs. The
>> *room* is small, well-padded and you have to sit *really* close to
>> most of the speakers. Good car audio buys some dynamic range by
>> providing respectable maximum levels, facilitated by the small room
>> and close speaker placement.
>>
>>> Furthermore, the extreme vulnerability of the Subaru's
>>> frameless windows to breakin makes me loath to put money into a car
>>> to make it theft bait.
>>
>> That would be a situation that is specific to your special case.
>>
>>> Therefore, the optimal solution is a one-piece
>>> mp3 player/modulator that I can take with me. Too bad it doesn't
>>> exist.
>>
>> Well you could plug an off-the-shelf battery-powered modulator into
>> a Nomad Jukebox and have thousands of MP3 files and/or 100's of .wav
>> files at your disposal.
>>
>>> Nevertheless, the sound is acceptable to me.
>>
>> Whatever that means.
>>
>>>>> CD changers
>>>>> scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except
>>>>> with the finest car systems.
>>
>>>> I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.
>>
>>> I have two damn many thousands of CDs. I don't have space to store
>>> duplicates.
>>
>> I just keep them in the car and when they get too scratched, there's
>> enough trash cans in the world to hold them.
>>
>>>>> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
>>>>> many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?
>>
>>>> I know of none.
>>
>>> I see I'm not aware of your position on the mp3 codec. I thought --
>>> mistakenly -- that you felt there was some bitrate at which it
>>> becomes transparent. How about the Minidisc codec?
>>
>> Ditto. You know if you ever actually went to www.pcabx.com you'd
>> know crap like this. But far be if for you to lower yourself to
>> educate yourself...
>>
>>> [snip] My desires outrun the current state of gadgets.
>>
>> The Nomad (or iPod) with RF modulator would do the trick you seem to
>> be willing to subsist with...
>>
> Nasty, nasty. Perhaps a good lawsuit is what you need.

Good example of biting the hand that feeds...

[Neil]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message >...
> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accomodate a standard depth radio. I
> want to make the transition from tapes to something better.
> It occurred to me that considering the relative mediocrity of the speakers
> and amplification, and the great cost of replacing it all, that mp3 and an
> FM modulator would be a good choice.

Given that you've got a tape deck in the car, another way to go would
be to get one of those adapters that looks like a cassette. You could
connect the following to any portable audio player that has a
headphone jack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F004%5F000&product%5Fid=12%2D1999

Or you could get a Discman-style CD player that includes that adapter:

http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F007%5F003%5F000&Page=1

This one plays MP3 files burned on CDs:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F007%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=42%2D6039

(The above are examples. You should be able to find similar gear from
other makers, such as Sony.)

Another possibility, if you want to go with the FM idea:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F001%5F005&product%5Fid=12%2D2053

>CD changers scratch CDs and probably
> provide no audible difference, except with the finest car systems.
>
> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how many hours
> per gigabyte does one obtain?
>
> The design that I desire would be a walkman size box that can sit on the car
> seat, perhaps with a remote that can be attached to the steering wheel.
> However, any form factor which is not in-dash could be used.

If I were you, I'd probably go with a Discman-style portable with the
car kit that includes the cassette adapter and power adapter to
connect to the car's cigarette lighter output. That should cover all
your needs. Just take the Discman with you when you leave the car; I
doubt anybody would steal the adapters. If you want to carry around a
lot of music, get a Discman that plays MP3 and/or other compressed
formats, then burn your own CDs.

I'll add that with the cassette adapter, you can use any music
portable, such as an iPod or other model. But an iPod or similar will
cost much, much more than the Discman shown above, and a Discman will
be compatible with your CDs, which is another advantage.

BTW, I had a car about a dozen years ago that had a tape deck, and
like you, I didn't want to spend a lot of $$$ on the car or upgrade
the car's audio gear. I tried the cassette adapter and my Discman and
was quite pleasantly surprised at the sound quality. It was much
better than I expected. I also realized that my speakers were better
than I'd guessed from listening to the poor quality of FM and tapes. I
never compared the cassette adapter to an FM modulator, because I was
happy with the cassette adapter and that was a convenient way for me
to go.

> Are there any players which incorporate the following features?
>
> a built-in FM modulator?

Not to my knowledge.

> multilevel menus that can be edited on a PC

For that, you could use a hard-drive based player such as an iPod or
something like that. I don't know much about those kind of players. Or
you could burn CDs and organize the file as you make the CDs.

> replaceable/upgradeable memory, ie., swappable drives?

Not to my knowledge, but I could be wrong. I think you could replace
the HDD, but it would take some surgery. Any HDD should hold more than
enough music for you.

If you really need to carry around 80gb of music, it might make more
sense to carry around several iPods (or similar models). Most of the
iPod's competitors cost less. For example:

http://www.circuitcity.com/searchresults.jsp?catoid=-8721&department=Portable+Electronics&pageLink2.x=7&pageLink2.y=5&category=MP3+Players&cattotal=33&hdENTERed=no&qp=0&sort=Price&fv=0&fv=0&caller=searchresults.jsp&c=1&b=g&page=2&first=yes

> purchasable as an OEM product, so I can install my own 80 gig drive?

Not to my knowledge. I don't think any of the portables use a drive
that big and if you could stick that drive into a portable, I don't
know if it would work. Besides, 80gb would probably hold much more
music than you'd need while driving.

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> >>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>
> >>>> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>> I have a 1992 Subaru, which does not accommodate a standard depth
> >>>>> radio. I want to make the transition from tapes to something
> >>>>> better. It occurred to me that considering the relative
> >>>>> mediocrity of the speakers and amplification, and the great cost
> >>>>> of replacing it all, that mp3 and an FM modulator would be a good
> >>>>> choice.
> >>>
> >>>> You vastly underestimate the sound quality possible in an
> >>>> automotive environment, even with modest investments.
> >>
> >>> No, I don't.
> >>
> >> Gee, let's be really mature here. I say "Yes you do", and you say
> >> "No I don't" and this goes on for about 26 cycles posts and we look
> >> like Singh, Weil and Middius. Welcome to RAO!
> >>
> >>> The car is handicapped by a radio depth of 3",
> >>
> >> These are the days of amazing things done with microelectronics.
> >>
> >>> and by ambient noise that is higher than a typical home listening
> >>> environment.
> >>
> >> That depends on the car, but again there are some trade-offs. The
> >> *room* is small, well-padded and you have to sit *really* close to
> >> most of the speakers. Good car audio buys some dynamic range by
> >> providing respectable maximum levels, facilitated by the small room
> >> and close speaker placement.
> >>
> >>> Furthermore, the extreme vulnerability of the Subaru's
> >>> frameless windows to breakin makes me loath to put money into a car
> >>> to make it theft bait.
> >>
> >> That would be a situation that is specific to your special case.
> >>
> >>> Therefore, the optimal solution is a one-piece
> >>> mp3 player/modulator that I can take with me. Too bad it doesn't
> >>> exist.
> >>
> >> Well you could plug an off-the-shelf battery-powered modulator into
> >> a Nomad Jukebox and have thousands of MP3 files and/or 100's of .wav
> >> files at your disposal.
> >>
> >>> Nevertheless, the sound is acceptable to me.
> >>
> >> Whatever that means.
> >>
> >>>>> CD changers
> >>>>> scratch CDs and probably provide no audible difference, except
> >>>>> with the finest car systems.
> >>
> >>>> I copy my CDs and play the copies on the road.
> >>
> >>> I have two damn many thousands of CDs. I don't have space to store
> >>> duplicates.
> >>
> >> I just keep them in the car and when they get too scratched, there's
> >> enough trash cans in the world to hold them.
> >>
> >>>>> What bitrate is, to your ears, indistinguishable from CD, and how
> >>>>> many hours per gigabyte does one obtain?
> >>
> >>>> I know of none.
> >>
> >>> I see I'm not aware of your position on the mp3 codec. I thought --
> >>> mistakenly -- that you felt there was some bitrate at which it
> >>> becomes transparent. How about the Minidisc codec?
> >>
> >> Ditto. You know if you ever actually went to www.pcabx.com you'd
> >> know crap like this. But far be if for you to lower yourself to
> >> educate yourself...
> >>
> >>> [snip] My desires outrun the current state of gadgets.
> >>
> >> The Nomad (or iPod) with RF modulator would do the trick you seem to
> >> be willing to subsist with...
> >>
> > Nasty, nasty. Perhaps a good lawsuit is what you need.
>
> Good example of biting the hand that feeds...
>
I thought I'd take advantage of the one small area where you might have some
expertise...