TS/TRS balanced/unbalanced can someone explain

[TheKeith]

I'm trying to figure this all out. Can someone explain it to me. This is
what I've figured so far, but I'm not sure if I'm correct. a TS (tip-sleeve)
plug can only carry a mono signal which is unbalanced correct? A TRS
(tip-ring-sleeve) plug is used to carry either a stereo signal with two
unbalanced mono channels in the tip and sleeve, or a balanced mono channel
(which utilizes both the tip and the sleeve for the one channel of sound),
correct? Now, can someone explain to me what unbalanced/balanced means and
also, what if would want to have a balanced stereo signal--is there such a
thing? is there no need for that? As you can see, I'm confused. Help would
be appreciated--thanks.

[Arny Krueger]

"TheKeith" > wrote in message

> I'm trying to figure this all out. Can someone explain it to me. This
> is what I've figured so far, but I'm not sure if I'm correct. a TS
> (tip-sleeve) plug can only carry a mono signal which is unbalanced
> correct? A TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) plug is used to carry either a
> stereo signal with two unbalanced mono channels in the tip and
> sleeve, or a balanced mono channel (which utilizes both the tip and
> the sleeve for the one channel of sound), correct? Now, can someone
> explain to me what unbalanced/balanced means and also, what if would
> want to have a balanced stereo signal--is there such a thing? is
> there no need for that? As you can see, I'm confused. Help would be
> appreciated--thanks.

Please see:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/pro-audio-faq/

Section III - Audio Interconnections

[TheKeith]

> Please see:
>
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/pro-audio-faq/
>
> Section III - Audio Interconnections

thanks Arny--just what I needed

[Todd H.]

"TheKeith" > writes:

> I'm trying to figure this all out. Can someone explain it to me. This is
> what I've figured so far, but I'm not sure if I'm correct. a TS (tip-sleeve)
> plug can only carry a mono signal which is unbalanced correct?

Correct. It's only got 2 conductors.

> A TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) plug is used to carry either a stereo signal
> with two unbalanced mono channels in the tip and sleeve, or a
> balanced mono channel (which utilizes both the tip and the sleeve
> for the one channel of sound), correct?

Yup.

> Now, can someone explain to me what unbalanced/balanced means and
> also, what if would want to have a balanced stereo signal--is there
> such a thing? is there no need for that? As you can see, I'm
> confused. Help would be appreciated--thanks.

Unbalanced signals are single ended. There's a signal lead an a
ground.

Balanced signals use 3 conductors--a ground, a signal lead, and
another lead that carries the inverse of the signal (i.e. the signal
180 degrees out of phase).

The benefit of balanced lines is in noise cancellation over long runs
of cable--e.g. PA snakes carrying microphone level signals. Over
such a long run, a low level signal like that will get mixed with
plenty of 60Hz and 120Hz power line noise induced _common_mode_ (that
is, fairly equally across all 3 conductors). A preamp for a balanced
line uses either electronics or a transformer to do "differential
amplification" of the signal+ and signal- conductors. It amplifies
only the difference between those two lines. The beatuiful thing
there is that is amplifies the differential mode signal (since signal+
- signal- gives you 2*signal), and nicely
cancels out the common mode stuff (i.e. the 60Hz and 120Hz noise).

Feel free to ask followup questions. If you picture and draw you the
signal as a sine wave, and picture the "-" operation, you can envision
how a differential amp would squash common mode stuff, and amplify
differential mode stuff.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
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[unitron]

"TheKeith" > wrote in message >...

---snip---

> either a stereo signal with two
> unbalanced mono channels in the tip and sleeve, or a balanced mono channel
> (which utilizes both the tip and the sleeve for the one channel of sound

---snip---

A TRS used for stereo, like say the plug on the end of a headphone
cable, uses the sleeve (the longest part) as common or "ground", the
ring for one channel's "hot" (usually the right) and the tip for the
other channel's hot (usually the left).
Someone once said that the nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them. You can't always count on different brand gear
from different years agreeing on what goes to the tip and what to the
ring, but I'm going to say that sleeve is almost always "ground"
because I have yet (in nearly a half century) to see it not be, but
remember, I only said "almost always".

[TheKeith]

Thanks everyone for your help. I see now, that for short distances, a
regular unbalanced connection will be just fine for my needs--that is to
hook up a cheap mixer to my sound card so I can record sounds from an xlr
mic. I'd been using a regular instrument cable (ts mono) with a 1/4" to 1/8"
adapter on one end to make the connection and I wasn't sure if this was
creating unwanted noise that could easily be eliminated with the simple use
of a balanced cable. It sounds fine to me as it is but I was just curious if
it could sound better.

[CJT]

unitron wrote:

> "TheKeith" > wrote in message >...
>
> ---snip---
>
>
>>either a stereo signal with two
>>unbalanced mono channels in the tip and sleeve, or a balanced mono channel
>>(which utilizes both the tip and the sleeve for the one channel of sound
>
>
> ---snip---
>
> A TRS used for stereo, like say the plug on the end of a headphone
> cable, uses the sleeve (the longest part) as common or "ground", the
> ring for one channel's "hot" (usually the right) and the tip for the
> other channel's hot (usually the left).
> Someone once said that the nice thing about standards is that there
> are so many of them. You can't always count on different brand gear
> from different years agreeing on what goes to the tip and what to the
> ring, but I'm going to say that sleeve is almost always "ground"
> because I have yet (in nearly a half century) to see it not be, but
> remember, I only said "almost always".

That said, the way most phone jacks are constructed, a designer would
have to go to great lengths to safely use the sleeve for anything but
ground, so I doubt you'll _ever_ see it.

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