best car audio

[bob wald]

list the 5 best componies....lol
hmmmm earthquake-infinity-alpine-pg- ?
cant pick better speaker, polk,visonik,kicker or cerwin vega?

[MZ]

Please stop posting the same thing over and over again.

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, bob wald wrote:

> list the 5 best componies....lol
> hmmmm earthquake-infinity-alpine-pg- ?
> cant pick better speaker, polk,visonik,kicker or cerwin vega?
>
>

[Ian]

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:47:58 GMT, bob wald wrote:

> list the 5 best componies....lol

why must you constantly use "lol" in your posts? none of the
things you post are even the least bit funny...

am I the only one who sees it like this?

[Tony F]

"list the 5 best componies....lol hmmmm earthquake-infinity-alpine-pg- ?
cant pick better speaker, polk,visonik,kicker or cerwin vega?"

Did your parents have the same last name before they were married?

Tony



--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

[bob wald]

i never posted this before..this is more expensive.i dont have any of
these.
before i posted jensen,boss,profile,pioneer,jvc.which i have all these.

[bob wald]

oh if you upset i dont have jl/orion up there.cause they not as good a
speaker as i listed......sorry

[I. Care]

In article >,
says...
> oh if you upset i dont have jl/orion up there.cause they not as good a
> speaker as i listed......sorry
>
>
Here you go. Think you have a super system and the best components?
Enter them here, get judged, and post your scores with proof back here.

http://www.carstereo.com/installs/ocac_info.cfm
--
I. Care
Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}

[I. Care]

In article >,
says...
> oh if you upset i dont have jl/orion up there.cause they not as good a
> speaker as i listed......sorry
>
>
Nothing better than looking at the equipment of a known winning install.


http://www.carstereo.com/installs/photo_gallery_album.cfm?
home=yes&photoid=1706&galleryid=235

or short version

http://snipurl.com/i85w
--
I. Care
Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}

[Kirby]

"bob wald" > wrote in message
...
>this is more expensive.i dont have any of
>these.

Since when is Visonik expensive, and what happened to you buying those
****ty 6X9s?

[Chad Wahls]

"I. Care" > wrote in message
.net...
> In article >,
> says...
>> oh if you upset i dont have jl/orion up there.cause they not as good a
>> speaker as i listed......sorry
>>
>>
> Nothing better than looking at the equipment of a known winning install.
>
>
> http://www.carstereo.com/installs/photo_gallery_album.cfm?
> home=yes&photoid=1706&galleryid=235
>
> or short version
>
> http://snipurl.com/i85w
> --
> I. Care
> Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}

"The processor rack in the rear window motorizes open for use. The Alesis
MEQ-230 Equalizer and Valley Range Expander are from a studio and were
converted for 12 volt use. With door closed, the rear deck maintains a stock
appearance, complete with Z34 logos built into the cover(see top photo)."



The Valley people Gate is there (Gate is a more popular term for "range
expander") to negate the fact that the Alesis MEQ230 is quite possibly the
nastiest EQ ever produced. It's noisy, it's filters have dramatic negative
effects on adjacent filter frequencies, Phase response is terrible, and has
shotty construction. This is why you never see them in pro rigs and are
readily available all over the place for CHEAP.



Chad

[bob wald]

visonik is a company = to pioneer,sony,jvc, claron,jbl,rf,kenwood,lanzer
in speakers at least. amps too i bet.

[bob wald]

oh n i havnt ordered them yet.one of my orders wasnt in stock so ill
wait aweek then might be close to getting it in. also i really dont know
much about visonik.thats why im getting it to say ive tried it n know
about visonik speakers first hand.
they seem ok at least.maybe ill be surpised n visonik is a world class
speaker....

[I. Care]

In article >, says...
>
> "I. Care" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> oh if you upset i dont have jl/orion up there.cause they not as good a
> >> speaker as i listed......sorry
> >>
> >>
> > Nothing better than looking at the equipment of a known winning install.
> >
> >
> > http://www.carstereo.com/installs/photo_gallery_album.cfm?
> > home=yes&photoid=1706&galleryid=235
> >
> > or short version
> >
> > http://snipurl.com/i85w
> > --
> > I. Care
> > Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}
>
> "The processor rack in the rear window motorizes open for use. The Alesis
> MEQ-230 Equalizer and Valley Range Expander are from a studio and were
> converted for 12 volt use. With door closed, the rear deck maintains a stock
> appearance, complete with Z34 logos built into the cover(see top photo)."
>
>
>
> The Valley people Gate is there (Gate is a more popular term for "range
> expander") to negate the fact that the Alesis MEQ230 is quite possibly the
> nastiest EQ ever produced. It's noisy, it's filters have dramatic negative
> effects on adjacent filter frequencies, Phase response is terrible, and has
> shotty construction. This is why you never see them in pro rigs and are
> readily available all over the place for CHEAP.
>
>
>
> Chad
>
>
>
Thanks, it's been awhile since I competed in IASCA (1995 World Finals).
--
I. Care
Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}

[MZ]

> The Valley people Gate is there (Gate is a more popular term for "range
> expander") to negate the fact that the Alesis MEQ230 is quite possibly the
> nastiest EQ ever produced. It's noisy, it's filters have dramatic
negative
> effects on adjacent filter frequencies, Phase response is terrible, and
has
> shotty construction. This is why you never see them in pro rigs and are
> readily available all over the place for CHEAP.

Sounds like you're talking about Behringer. Both of those DCX's I got are
acting up already. When they're not humming, crackling, or full of static,
they're putting a DC offset on their ground (don't ask me how). The ribbon
cables inside appear to be responsible for a lot of the noise. They're also
not talking to any of the serial ports I've tried. Intermittent connection,
and then it freezes during transfer.

We'll see how far I get once I send it back.

If you or Les are thinking about incorporating one of these into your cars,
you may want to reconsider.

[bob wald]

ok i know your systems are crap if you dont have a eq.preferibly a
9band.
i found a great 1. but only a 7 band. clarion

[Andy Weaks]

Ian wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:47:58 GMT, bob wald wrote:
>
>
>>list the 5 best componies....lol
>
>
> why must you constantly use "lol" in your posts? none of the
> things you post are even the least bit funny...
>
> am I the only one who sees it like this?
>

why don't we all put bw on ignore and quit responding to him and maybe
just maybe he will go away.

[gorgon2k]

bob, your a total moron


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[Tony F]

"why don't we all put bw on ignore and quit responding to him and maybe just
maybe he will go away."

You know...I suggested that a long time ago and I successfully ignored him
for quite a while. But no one else was so I figured ignoring him by myself
wasn't any fun. So it appears I am now doing my fair share of fueling his
existence by replying to him. If we could all agree to completely ingore
him then I'm certain he would go away.

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

[Les]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> > The Valley people Gate is there (Gate is a more popular term for "range
> > expander") to negate the fact that the Alesis MEQ230 is quite possibly
the
> > nastiest EQ ever produced. It's noisy, it's filters have dramatic
> negative
> > effects on adjacent filter frequencies, Phase response is terrible, and
> has
> > shotty construction. This is why you never see them in pro rigs and are
> > readily available all over the place for CHEAP.
>
> Sounds like you're talking about Behringer. Both of those DCX's I got are
> acting up already. When they're not humming, crackling, or full of
static,
> they're putting a DC offset on their ground (don't ask me how). The
ribbon
> cables inside appear to be responsible for a lot of the noise. They're
also
> not talking to any of the serial ports I've tried. Intermittent
connection,
> and then it freezes during transfer.
>
> We'll see how far I get once I send it back.
>
> If you or Les are thinking about incorporating one of these into your
cars,
> you may want to reconsider.

Well, eventually I was thinking that. I've used quite a few, albeit never in
a car, and I haven't had one fail. But for the money you almost have to
expect it, the price has to come at the sacrifice of something. You just
can't use top grade compenents and get it that cheap. BTW do you know who
makes the connectors on the ribbon cables?

Les

[Scott Gardner]

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:03:44 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>ok i know your systems are crap if you dont have a eq.preferibly a
>9band.
>i found a great 1. but only a 7 band. clarion

And what good is a 7- or even a 9-band equalizer if you've got a
frequency response dip or spike that falls in-between two adjacent
bands?

If you're serious about using an equalizer, I think that you're better
off with either a 1/3-octave equalizer like the 30- or 31-band models,
or with a parametric equalizer. The parametrics usually only give you
three to five "bands" of adjustment, but you can choose the exact
center frequency where you want the adjustment to take place, and you
can also adjust the 'Q', or "width" of the adjustment, as well as the
magnitude of the adjustment itself.

You'd be surprised how few adjustment to the EQ curve are required if
you can choose exactly where the adjustments take place, and how wide
of a range is affected by each adjustment.



--
Scott Gardner

"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." --Mark Twain

[bob wald]

well i was just saying te littlest to use would be a 9 i think....14-15
biggest i think.

[bob wald]

lol..a 30band.no human on earth could tell the difference between using
9band or 18band.....

[bob wald]

good plan

[bob wald]

so what you pro car guys are saying is a 7band isnt better than
none...lol

[Scott Gardner]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:43:55 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>so what you pro car guys are saying is a 7band isnt better than
>none...lol

Of course a 7-band is better than nothing - I never said it wasn't.
It just doesn't allow always allow you to put the adjustment where
it's needed.

Look at it this way. A 7-band equalizer has approximately one
adjustment for each octave. So you may have a slider for 4000Hz and
the next slider will be at 8000Hz. Neither of those is going to be
very useful if you have a big peak or dip at 6000Hz.

A 30-band EQ has adjustments at every 1/3 octave, so in addition to
adjustments for 4000Hz and 8000Hz, you'll also have adjustments for
5000Hz and 6200Hz. This allows you to make adjustments much closer to
where they're needed. If the equalizer has an adjustable 'Q', you can
also adjust how wide of a frequency range is adjusted.

I'll let you in on a little secret. With a properly-adjusted 30-band
EQ, most of the knobs/sliders will be set to zero, or very close to
zero. You'll probably only have four or five bands that need to be
set significantly higher or lower than zero to fix frequency response
problems in your particular car. The beauty of a 30-band EQ is that
it allows you to make minor adjustments **right where they're
needed**, rather than having to make big adjustments to two adjacent
bands in order to fix a problem that's right in-between the bands.

Of course, parametrics are the best solution. Let's say you have a 6
dB peak centered at 5500 Hz that you want to get rid of. Let's assume
that the peak is fairly narrow, so that it's only affecting
frequencies between 5200Hz and 5800Hz. With a parametric equalizer,
you're not limited to fixed "bands" of adjusement. You simply adjust
the center frequency of the parametric adjustment to exactly 5500Hz,
dial in 6dB of cut, and adjust the 'Q' value so that only the
frequencies between 5200Hz and 5800Hz are being attenuated.

Try fixing that 6 dB peak with a 7-band EQ, and you'll likely end up
affecting frequencies all the way from 3000Hz to 9000Hz, and you still
won't be able to completely fix the response curve.


--
Scott Gardner

"Oh look, things are going from bad to worse!"

[Scott Gardner]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:30:14 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>lol..a 30band.no human on earth could tell the difference between using
>9band or 18band.....

You can tell very easily, actually. It depends on where the peak/dip
is that you're trying to remove. The idea behind a 30-band equalizer
isn't to use ALL the knobs - it's to only use the half-dozen or so
that affect your particular problem areas. On my last 30-band EQ,
none of the knobs were more than 6dB away from zero, and most of them
were within 1dB of zero.

I'll use another example. The fuel-injection system in my motorcycle
doesn't have a feedback loop. Instead, it uses a two-dimensional
"map" to determine how much fuel to inject, based on the engine RPM
and the throttle position.

Let's say that my bike is running too lean around 3500 RPM (not enough
fuel). So, I need to adjust the fuel map to inject more fuel around
3500 RPM. The RPM range of my engine is 0-9000 RPM. If I only have
adjustments every 1000 RPM (kind of like a 9-band equalizer), then I'm
kind of screwed. I can richen the mixture around 3000 RPM and also at
4000 RPM, and the combination of those two adjustments will overlap
around 3500 RPM and fix the lean spot there, but now I'm running too
rich above and below that point.

Fortunately, I can adjust the fuel map every 250 RPM (kind of like a
36-band equalizer. This allows me to adjust the fuel map **right at**
3500 RPM, while leaving the adjacent areas almost unaffected, since
having more "bands" of adjustment means that each band affects a
narrower range.

Only having 7 or 9 bands of equalization bites you in the ass two ways
- you're less likely to be able to make an adjustment right where you
need it, and since the bands are wider, any adjustment you make affect
a much wider range of frequencies, and your adjustments may spill over
into frequencies that didn't need adjusting in the first place.










--
Scott Gardner

"You guys got something against spam? (Vriess, in _Alien 4_)"

[bob wald]

the eq i ordered is cjarion eqs744 .
as i think it says it adds to you pre puts to make them 7v.....weeeee it
also has 6 rca ports out.

[bob wald]

clarion eqs744. wwweeeee
I will be the greatest audio guy in the hemisphere......weeeee

[Scott Gardner]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 15:13:20 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>the eq i ordered is cjarion eqs744 .
>as i think it says it adds to you pre puts to make them 7v.....weeeee it
>also has 6 rca ports out.

Now, let's see if you can explain the technical "advantage" of 7V
pre-outs over something like 2V pre-outs. (Hint - there is math
involved, and if you do the math correctly, you'll see that the 7V
pre-outs are just a marketing gimmick).


--
Scott Gardner

"I've noticed that the press tends to be quite accurate, except when they're writing on a subject I know something about." (Keith F. Lynch)

[bob wald]

7v gives you less distortion at higher volts from head unit.cleaner
power...less stess on the unit.
afew others also if i thunk hard .example, you can run ya unit at 70% of
power n get 4.9volts from 7v. weeee

[Chad Wahls]

Contact Jim Savery, Behringer US Service rep... He gets things done!!!!
Hullava a guy. He's helped me a couple times and a few others I know,
very re-assuring to have him helping.

Chad

[Chad Wahls]

wrong.

[Chad Wahls]

I haven't had any failures in the feild. As for comm syncing check to
be sure you have the latest firmware, I THINK there may be a revision
to correct that.

Chad

[robyncboyd]

bob wald Wrote:
> clarion eqs744. wwweeeee
> I will be the greatest audio guy in the hemisphere......weeeee

Hey Robert! S T F U !


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[bob wald]

roby dont hate me because of the failures n choosing equipment.you made.
HahaHahaHahA.......

[bob wald]

30band...lol
thats funny...thats too much...and yes you can change your sound but
your reciever, tuner, power supply, wiring and 10 other things can screw
you up. so just because you have that means NOTHING........

[robyncboyd]

Boobie, I mean Bobbie. Theses are the *real* brands of car audio I've
owned:

Orion amps
PPI amps
RF amps
Linear Power (current amps)

Kicker
JL Audio subs

MB Quart
JL Audio
Infinity front stage

Audio Control xovers

Alpine
Pioneer head units

Alpine EQ's

Got your junk beat there buddy;)


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[MZ]

> I haven't had any failures in the feild. As for comm syncing check to
> be sure you have the latest firmware, I THINK there may be a revision
> to correct that.

Yep, latest firmware.

The static issue drives me crazy. At one point, I tried putting new
silicone down to hold the ribbon cable in place a bit better, which seemed
to do the trick at first but then it started doing it again. I checked the
silicone and it's still holding.

You don't happen to have an email or phone number for Jim Savery, do you?

[bob wald]

my Sherwood xat-3000 amp..will blow all of those except 1 maybe......
specs....85x4,4ohm. .03-thd....105s/n....2ohm stable. in mint
condition......2 built in fans.....

[Jethro]

bob wald Wrote:
> my Sherwood xat-3000 amp..will blow all of those except 1 maybe......
> specs....85x4,4ohm. .03-thd....105s/n....2ohm stable. in mint
> condition......2 built in fans.....

I owned a Sherwood car amp back in the day... was an upgrade to the
Pyramid EQ/booster I had, but really nothing special... mediocre power
with a harsh edge to it... rated at 40x2 RMS but couldn't hold a candle
to the RF Punch 75 (37.5x2 RMS) that replaced it... in terms of sonics
or power output.


--
Jethro

[(Vas/Vbox)+1]^.5 * Qts or Fs
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[Scott Gardner]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:27:28 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>7v gives you less distortion at higher volts from head unit.cleaner
>power...less stess on the unit.
>afew others also if i thunk hard .example, you can run ya unit at 70% of
>power n get 4.9volts from 7v. weeee

Bzzt - wrong answer. First, the preouts provide virtually no "stress"
on a head unit, regardless of the voltage They provide almost no
current to the amplifiers because of the extremely high input
impedence on the amplifier.

As for the benefits of 7V preouts, there are pretty much none. Let's
say that your head unit has 2V preouts, and the EQ bumps that up to
7V. Whatever noise is present in the signal from the head unit is
going to be amplified as well. But even if the EQ could amplify the
signal 3.5 times (7V divided by 2V) without amplifying the noise, or
adding any noise of its own, the only benefit would be a *theoretical*
increase of 5.4 dB in the signal-to-noise ratio. (10 * log(3.5)).

The problem is, almost any modern head unit already has a
signal-to-noise ratio of 90 dB or higher. 90 dB is equivalent to one
part noise in one BILLION parts music. If you managed to bump the S/N
ratio up to 95.4 dB, that would be about one part noise per 3.5
billion parts music. Do you think you can tell the difference between
a S/N ratio of 90 and a S/N ratio of 95.4 dB? Guess what, you can't.

About the only thing that having 7V preouts is going to mean to you is
that you're going to have to turn the gains way down on your amplifier
to keep them from clipping anytime you have the head unit volume above
20% or so. Your amps won't play any louder or any cleaner with the
higher input voltage.

All this silliness with ultra-high voltage preouts is almost strictly
a car-audio marketing phenomenon. That's why home and professional
audio gear (even the very best stuff) is still standardized on the old
0.7V preouts. In case you hadn't ever though about it, that's why you
don't have gain controls on home amplifiers - the amplifier knows that
the CD player, tape deck, or DVD player connected to it will have the
standard 0.7V preamp-level signal coming out of it, so the gain
doesn't have to be adjustable.



--
Scott Gardner

"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's sometimes hard to remember that your original mission was to drain the swamp."

[MZ]

> > 30band...lol
> > thats funny...thats too much...and yes you can change your sound but
> > your reciever, tuner, power supply, wiring and 10 other things can screw
> > you up. so just because you have that means NOTHING........
> >
> >
> Guess you don't know how to EQ do you. You set up a RTA with a
> calibrated flat response mic and EQ the actual audio heard by your ears.
> Compensates for your wire, speakers etc. within reason. But if you are
> using noisy garbage HU, Amps etc. nothing will fix that.

Bah! You don't need an RTA. In fact, don't use an RTA. It'll only bias
matters for you.

In an ideal world, a 30-band (or more) EQ is a very good thing to have.
It'll compensate for any global frequency response dips and peaks your
system exhibits due to the speakers, car, or listener positioning. If you
can get one that can store presets, even better. Your EQ adjustments will
often be radically different based on ambient conditions (eg. windows
up/down, AC full blast or off, even people in the passenger seat...).

However, *in addition* to the 30-band EQ, I also recommend an in-dash EQ for
fine-tune adjustment of the various music one may listen to. Let's be real
here - not all music sounds the same or is mixed and mastered the same.
It's obscene not to be able to control certain aspects of the music, unless
the person listens to the same CD all the time. Bass and treble controls in
most head units are not enough. The number of bands of in-dash equalization
that one should use should basically be the maximum you can realistically
adjust when driving [it's hard as hell to adjust 30 bands while driving -
yes, I've done it].

[Les]

Jim Savery
Global Customer Support Manager
BEHRINGER The Americas
BEHRINGER USA, Inc
Tel: +01-425-672-0816 x 111
Direct Dial: +01-425-939-3216
Fax: +01-425-673-7647
IP Phone Ext: 5024




"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> > I haven't had any failures in the feild. As for comm syncing check to
> > be sure you have the latest firmware, I THINK there may be a revision
> > to correct that.
>
> Yep, latest firmware.
>
> The static issue drives me crazy. At one point, I tried putting new
> silicone down to hold the ribbon cable in place a bit better, which seemed
> to do the trick at first but then it started doing it again. I checked
the
> silicone and it's still holding.
>
> You don't happen to have an email or phone number for Jim Savery, do you?
>
>

[bob wald]

tapes.....god i miss them..chrome tapes are close to cd quality..thats
all i used was chrome..i do have afrew metal tapes.....
It too me many years to make all those tapes i have......

[bob wald]

Ha shows you know nothing about car audio jethro..my Sherwood xat-3000
over 11 yrs old was 1 of the first 1ohm stabe amps on this planet....oh
is rf-kicker-hifonics 1ohm stable yet??? hAHAhAHAhA........
I think Sherwood stop making them..too expensive to mass produce......

[bob wald]

scott bbbbuuzzz wrong.....wear n stress doesnt provide stress on every
part of a unit that carries electricity....hmmm
I should call nasa n inform them......they have it all wrong..lol
Nothing is the same from home to car audio....
too....jsyk

[bob wald]

scott..i went up from 3.5v to 5v out puts..It changed my life.......
You can get a $500, 3v unit offer a trade to my $139, jensen 5v
unit..ill tell you some thing i decided not to type here...but it ends
in go ____ yourself.... lol. wwweeeeee

[Scott Gardner]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:13:36 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>scott..i went up from 3.5v to 5v out puts..It changed my life.......
>You can get a $500, 3v unit offer a trade to my $139, jensen 5v
>unit..ill tell you some thing i decided not to type here...but it ends
>in go ____ yourself.... lol. wwweeeeee

Unless you can compare two head units that are identical in every way
except for pre-out voltage, you have no idea why the 5V unit sounded
better. If everything else about the head units is the same, the only
advantage of the 5V unit is that the S/N ratio will **theoretically**
be 1.5 dB higher when compared to the 3.5V unit..

A lot of this foolishness started with the Alpine 7909. It had 4V
preouts, making it one of the first high-voltage car head units. It
was also widely considered to be a great-sounding unit. But it wasn't
a good-sounding unit *becuase* it had high-voltage preouts, it was a
good sounding unit that *also* had high-voltage preouts.

But since then, the "more-is-better" mentality has taken over, and
consumers blindly accept that if 2V preouts are good, then 4V, 5V or
8V simply *must* be better,right?
--
Scott Gardner

"If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains."

[bob wald]

scott i know all that..i know other things count too. but 5-8v is
great...i myself would only use 5v-6v tops.not to damage the 8 amps i
have already......alot of amps have trouble with over 5v.
but jensen i dont think is in the top 5 headunits with overal specs.So
the increase in volts had to make it better....
But it does sound awsome over all....
go ((((JENSENNNNNNN)))))

[bob wald]

also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
least get 5v....weeeeee
if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

[Scott Gardner]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:55:19 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
>least get 5v....weeeeee
>if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

This is wrong for so many reasons, I literally don't know were to
start...

--
Scott Gardner

"Question _your own_ authority."

[Scott Gardner]

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:34:53 -0400, Scott Gardner >
wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:55:19 -0500, (bob wald)
>wrote:
>
>>also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
>>least get 5v....weeeeee
>>if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....
>
>This is wrong for so many reasons, I literally don't know were to
>start...

Damn typos. should be "where to start", obviously.


--
Scott Gardner

"A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five."

[bob wald]

so scott you get 100% of specs from stereo no matter what your battery
is doing..Boy Scott you are amazing......

[MZ]

What's so special about being stable down to one ohm?

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, bob wald wrote:

> Ha shows you know nothing about car audio jethro..my Sherwood xat-3000
> over 11 yrs old was 1 of the first 1ohm stabe amps on this planet....oh
> is rf-kicker-hifonics 1ohm stable yet??? hAHAhAHAhA........
> I think Sherwood stop making them..too expensive to mass produce......
>
>

[MZ]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, bob wald wrote:
> also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
> least get 5v....weeeeee
> if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

If your battery "wears down", it won't change the output voltage of the
unit. The gain is independent of the supply voltage.

[Scott Gardner]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:34:46 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>so scott you get 100% of specs from stereo no matter what your battery
>is doing..Boy Scott you are amazing......

No, the points I was going to make were:

1) We don't know how the preout voltage is regulated. It's entirely
possible that you could still get full output from them right up to
the moment that the head unit shuts down from undervoltage.

2) Having a higher preout voltage isn't going to help you maintain a
particular volume level longer, because the battery voltage to the
amplifier is going to be dropping as well. Plus, don't forget that
you had to lower the gain on the amp when you installed the
higher-preout-voltage head unit in the first place.

3) If your battery voltage is dropping to the point that you're
losing a third or more of the voltage on your preouts, you should turn
the frickin' stereo off anyway!


--
Scott Gardner

"The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the liberals and the conservatives, or the Federation and the Romulans. It's between the clueful and the clueless." (an anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)

[Chad Wahls]

Man, I think something went wrong... DC on pin one? Pin one should be
tied to the 3rd prong of the AC inlet. Often times all I/O grounds are
buffered thru a low ohmage, low wattage resistor to chasis ground.
This is done on many pro devices especially in cases where there could
be a lifted neutral on distro (power feed) This could turn the sheild
of drive cables into the neutral, especially since opposite stage feeds
are typically balanced between phases to leep the load proper. the
resistor simply fails.

Is the 3rd pin of your inverter chasis ground? Does it drive 60 volts
above and below chasis groiund or 120V down to chasis? Did you do some
grounding changes after the processor install? Is it (inverter)
Isolated to the point where you could drive the neutral into ground (of
car) Don't want to float the chasis up to 60V or higher. Expierienced
that in a non-staked (earth grounded) tour bus wille holding onto the
door and stepping into a puddle (drunk). "I became the true ground!"

Lets say that pin 3 is tied to ground on the unbalanced in/out. This
will try to drive UP ungrounded devices, even worse, biases the op-amps
high. That would cause some big-time static, having DC floating around
the unit. I suspect the DC on pin one is the root of all problems.
Start at the AC input and go from there....... People using the early
homebrew DC/DC converters were expierinncing the same problems and had
to use trannys all over the ins and outs (very expensive!) I think
there's an easier solutuion. I really wish I was at that point of my
install to be able to assist. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
amp, finally)

Get that chasis ground down to the car chasis and if it still floats,
then somehow those buffer resistors could be shot.

Man, I'm beat.. Please read thru the spelling and gram errors. I've
pulled 2 acres of cattle fence out and can barely think and move.

I'll try to re-read and try to shoot you an e-mail early this week,
work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors :)

Chad

[MZ]

> Man, I think something went wrong... DC on pin one? Pin one should be
> tied to the 3rd prong of the AC inlet. Often times all I/O grounds are
> buffered thru a low ohmage, low wattage resistor to chasis ground.
> This is done on many pro devices especially in cases where there could
> be a lifted neutral on distro (power feed) This could turn the sheild
> of drive cables into the neutral, especially since opposite stage feeds
> are typically balanced between phases to leep the load proper. the
> resistor simply fails.
>
> Is the 3rd pin of your inverter chasis ground?

Yes, it's grounded. It doesn't make much sense to me either, because one
afternoon I did the following tests:

1. check resistance between chassis ground and third prong = 0 ohms.
2. verify that third prong on rackmount outlet strip is tied to ground with
a meter (it's physically tied to ground too - oh yeah, and the surge
suppressor crap is removed from the strip).
3. check resistance between rack rails and ground = 0 ohms (also tied
directly to ground).

But the DC offset problem appears when I either remove the rack rails from
the ground or when I remove the processor from the rack. The other
processor doesn't show any of these symptoms.

I haven't had a chance to look closer, but the lack of logic screams loose
connection somewhere.


> Does it drive 60 volts
> above and below chasis groiund or 120V down to chasis?

Don't know.

> Did you do some
> grounding changes after the processor install?

Nope.

> Is it (inverter)
> Isolated to the point where you could drive the neutral into ground (of
> car) Don't want to float the chasis up to 60V or higher. Expierienced
> that in a non-staked (earth grounded) tour bus wille holding onto the
> door and stepping into a puddle (drunk). "I became the true ground!"

What do you mean? All ground points meet at a distro block directly tied to
the battery negative.

> Lets say that pin 3 is tied to ground on the unbalanced in/out. This
> will try to drive UP ungrounded devices, even worse, biases the op-amps
> high. That would cause some big-time static, having DC floating around
> the unit. I suspect the DC on pin one is the root of all problems.

I don't think so. For two reasons: 1) I can eliminate the DC bias and the
problem still persists; 2) Both units are exhibiting static whereas only one
is showing a DC issue. Also, when I got into one of the units, I could
cause the problem and eliminate it simply by tapping or slightly moving the
ribbon cable carrying analog information to the outputs board. Whether the
cable itself is shot or the connectors, I don't know. Obviously, since it's
still under warranty, I'm not going to try to figure that out.

> Start at the AC input and go from there....... People using the early
> homebrew DC/DC converters were expierinncing the same problems and had
> to use trannys all over the ins and outs (very expensive!) I think
> there's an easier solutuion. I really wish I was at that point of my
> install to be able to assist. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
> amp, finally)

What'd you choose?

By the way, I've decided to homebrew two amplifiers - not kits, my own
designs. Of course, various elements will be borrowed from the audio
literature (eg. Wireless World, jAES, as well as that Randy Slone book I
really like - even though it contrasts with Doug Self's book which I
recently finished). So nothing groundbreaking or exotic really.

>
> Get that chasis ground down to the car chasis and if it still floats,
> then somehow those buffer resistors could be shot.
>
> Man, I'm beat.. Please read thru the spelling and gram errors. I've
> pulled 2 acres of cattle fence out and can barely think and move.
>
> I'll try to re-read and try to shoot you an e-mail early this week,
> work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors :)

What's the difference? :)

[bob wald]

scott i never said a third....nice try to over state what i said..i said
like 19% power loss...

[Chad Wahls]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> I don't think so. For two reasons: 1) I can eliminate the DC bias and the
> problem still persists; 2) Both units are exhibiting static whereas only
> one
> is showing a DC issue. Also, when I got into one of the units, I could
> cause the problem and eliminate it simply by tapping or slightly moving
> the
> ribbon cable carrying analog information to the outputs board. Whether
> the
> cable itself is shot or the connectors, I don't know. Obviously, since
> it's
> still under warranty, I'm not going to try to figure that out.
>

Yeah, I would just get ahold of Behringer, there are different failure
modes, seems strange!

.. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
>> amp, finally)
>
> What'd you choose?

Morel MDT12 tweets (flanges lathed down to fit stock pod)

Seas CA18RNX mids (7")

Peerless XLS or Dayton Reference sub (Dayton is a little cheaper but brand
spanking new)

Phoenix Gold XS6600 amp, older unit, will do internal banpass crossovers
(very few do!) until I can figure out processing. Can be had new in box for
cheap now.

>
> By the way, I've decided to homebrew two amplifiers - not kits, my own
> designs. Of course, various elements will be borrowed from the audio
> literature (eg. Wireless World, jAES, as well as that Randy Slone book I
> really like - even though it contrasts with Doug Self's book which I
> recently finished). So nothing groundbreaking or exotic really.
>

You have bigger balls than I do.... Well I have a kid, concentration gets
broken often :) I enjoy amp building but now that I'm older I like playing
with tubes, Dunno, maybe I don't like keeping up on the cutting edge
semiconductors...... Or maybe i have spent soooo long repairing them that I
am burnt out. Seems the market is reforming, AF AND RF transistors are
being discontinued and re-invented at an alarming rate. Some very popular
Toshiba devices are being phased out and I have 2 racks full of amps that
utilize this family of devices. I am in the process of buying as many as I
feel I will need for rebuilds in the future :)

>>
>> work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors :)
>
> What's the difference? :)
>
We expect Professors to be able to operate A/V equipment :)

Chad

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 04:31:47 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>scott i never said a third....nice try to over state what i said..i said
>like 19% power loss...

The two examples you gave (7V dropping to 5V and 4V dropping to 3V)
are reductions of 28.5% and 25%, respectively. So maybe I should have
rounded down to "a quarter" instead up to "a third", but my point is
still valid. If you're losing that much voltage because of battery
problems, your stereo is the LEAST of your worries.

--
Scott Gardner

"One tentacle, one vote."

[bob wald]

every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
charge.....i dout 93%...

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:13:22 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
>charge.....i dout 93%...


There you go with your bull****, overly-precise statistics. Why "50
days"?? Why not an even 60 or 90 days? And how the hell do you
figure exactly 93%? I'd love to see the math behind that one. I'm
not going to hold my breath though, since I know you just pulled those
numbers out of your ass anyway. Don't you know that
excessively-precise statistics are almost a dead giveaway that someone
is full of ****?

But just for grins, I dare you to show us any kind of reasonable
mathematical calculations that leads you to predict a 7% capacity loss
after 50 days.

Besides, you're confusing the point. A battery that loses a little
bit of its capacity over time is NEVER going to cause the kind of
voltage drops that you described in your post. As you already know,
it's the alternator and voltage regulator that determine the
electrical system voltage anyway. Having a battery that's a few
months old isn't going to change your electrical system voltage one
bit, much less enough to drop your preout voltages more than 25%, to
use the numbers from your earlier post.

You're full of ****, and now you're squirming. Stop it.



--
Scott Gardner

"I was an hour late to work today, but I'll leave an hour early to make up for it."

[Kirby]

It may not hold the power for as long.. But if it doesnt hold the same
voltage, somethings terrbily wrong with that battery.


"bob wald" > wrote in message
...
> every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
> charge.....i dout 93%...
>

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:41:11 GMT, "Kirby" >
wrote:

>It may not hold the power for as long.. But if it doesnt hold the same
>voltage, somethings terrbily wrong with that battery.
>
>

True, and different car batteries have different capacities to begin
with anyway. It's not uncommon to see capacities ranging from 25 to
75 amp-hours, but that doesn't affect the battery voltage or the
alternator/regulator voltage one bit.

Bob is just grasping at straws, trying to find a situation that would
cause the big drops in head unit preout voltage that he predicted in
an earlier post. And trying to come up with an example of dropping
preout voltages in the first place was just a misguided, desperate
attempt to demonstrate the "advantages" of 7-volt preouts.

As you can tell, he doesn't have a strong technical background in
mathematics, physics, or electronics, so he's just flopping about like
a fish out of water, trying to come up with situations that justify
his statements, and using super-precise statistics to try to bluff us.


--
Scott Gardner

"It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it"

[bob wald]

ok 60days.....i'm trying to tell you a fact.every1 knows after 90days
batterys dont hold 100% or like it was new...but its more like 50-60days
i think...

[bob wald]

scott you are getting stuck of numbers to much....okk is getting a 15%
drop in power ok ? 25%,29% whatever...its all the same principal.

[bob wald]

scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same though
use....
just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:03:49 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>ok 60days.....i'm trying to tell you a fact.every1 knows after 90days
>batterys dont hold 100% or like it was new...but its more like 50-60days
>i think...

How about settling it once and for all and showing us some empirical
evidence or reasonable mathematical estimations that would explain
this?

It's true that batteries lose some of their capacity over time, and
it's also true that if frogs had machine guns, snakes wouldn't ****
with them. It's true, but it's not relevant to the conversation.

A slight loss in battery capacity over time, no matter how many days
it takes or what the exact percent loss is, will NOT change the
voltage in your car's electrical system, and it will not even BEGIN to
affect the preout voltages from your head unit, which is what started
this whole "weak battery lowering your voltage" bull**** in the first
place.



--
Scott Gardner

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds."

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:19:00 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>scott you are getting stuck of numbers to much....okk is getting a 15%
>drop in power ok ? 25%,29% whatever...its all the same principal.

Except that the actual number is almost exactly ZERO, and there's a
big ****ing difference between 25% and 0%.

The simple truth is, an aging battery won't lower the voltage of your
car's electrical system unless the battery's failed completely, and
it certainly won't lower your head unit's preout voltage - not 15%,
not 25%, and not 29%.

And even if the preamp voltage DID drop, having higher-voltage preamp
outputs isn't going to help anyway, because when you switched to the
higher-voltage preamp, you had to reduce the amplifier input gain to
match.

The overall gain between the laser pickup or radio receiver in the
head unit and the amplification stage of the amp will always be the
same, regardless of whether you use 2V, 4V, or 7V preamp outputs.
Increasing the gain of the preamp just means that you'll have to
reduce the gain of the amplifier input stage.


--
Scott Gardner

"I don't delude myself - my job is to kill people and break their stuff."

[Jethro]

bob wald Wrote:
> scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same
> though
> use....
> just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
> you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
> bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.

bob, you are a waste of bandwidth...


--
Jethro

[(Vas/Vbox)+1]^.5 * Qts or Fs
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[bob wald]

scott 0 n 15% n 25% isnt alike..meaning a noticable loss of power from
your battery but not enough for the battery to stop working....

[bob wald]

what i said was 7v was better than a 4v.especially with a weaker
battery....

[bob wald]

jethro i know you wanna be like me so bad....

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:31:42 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same though
>use....
>just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
>you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
>bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.


Bob, I've said *several times* that batteries lose a small amount of
their capacity over time - where are you getting that I'm saying they
"stay the same" throughout their lifetime?

But again, a battery that has lost some of its capacity STILL won't
affect the voltage in your car's electrical system.


--
Scott Gardner

"A billion hours ago, human life appeared on earth. A billion minutes ago, Christianity emerged. A billion Coca Colas ago was yesterday morning. " (from a Coca-Cola report)

[Jethro]

bob wald Wrote:
> jethro i know you wanna be like me so bad....

Been there done that... in about 1989... except I didn't troll
online...


--
Jethro

[(Vas/Vbox)+1]^.5 * Qts or Fs
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[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:32:01 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>scott 0 n 15% n 25% isnt alike..meaning a noticable loss of power from
>your battery but not enough for the battery to stop working....

Again, nothing that happens to the battery as it ages will affect your
car's electrical system voltage AT ALL, until the battery fails
completely. Where are you getting this idea that it will make a
difference?

System voltage is determined solely by the alternator and the voltage
regulator. After all, that's why it's called a "voltage regulator".

--
Scott Gardner

"Freedom defined is freedom denied." (Illuminatus)

[Scott Gardner]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:33:34 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

>what i said was 7v was better than a 4v.especially with a weaker
>battery....

And that statement is completely, totally, 100-percent wrong. What
makes you think that a weak battery will affect system voltage once
the car's running?

--
Scott Gardner

"After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself."

[bob wald]

scott once again ill explain to you.your stereo is hooked directly to
your battery.so your stereo takes only from your battery n your
altinator replaces it..doh........weeeeeee

[Greg]

"bob wald the retard" > wrote in message
...
> scott once again ill explain to you.your stereo is hooked directly to
> your battery.so your stereo takes only from your battery n your
> altinator replaces it..doh........weeeeeee
>

Then start your engine and disconnect your battery.
If your assumption is correct, your stereo will not work. ****en retard.
Your altenator supplies, and your voltage REGULATOR "REGULATES" the
electricity supply to your electrical system. ****en retard.
doh.......weeeeeeeeeee - ****en retard.
Greg.

[MZ]

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
> Then start your engine and disconnect your battery.
> If your assumption is correct, your stereo will not work. ****en retard.
> Your altenator supplies, and your voltage REGULATOR "REGULATES" the
> electricity supply to your electrical system. ****en retard.
> doh.......weeeeeeeeeee - ****en retard.
> Greg.

Greg, lay off. In recent weeks I think it's become pretty clear that he's
got a handicap. So I've tried to cut him a little bit of slack lately, and
so should everybody else. Hopefully, whoever his caretaker is will catch on
that he's trolling newsgroups, but until then I don't think it's right to
ridicule him so harshly.

[bob wald]

it regulates from a sold power supply retard.not from a weak power
supply....

[bob wald]

greg..i dont answer your posts cause its obvious you just wanna argue.by
saying totally stupid things....i know you must be mad i havent answered
you before.so chill hillbilly..lol

[bob wald]

your dum greg.i said your altenator supplies your stereo though your
battery.....can u understand????

[Greg]

"bob wald" > wrote in message
...
> greg..i dont answer your posts cause its obvious you just wanna argue.by
> saying totally stupid things....i know you must be mad i havent answered
> you before.so chill hillbilly..lol
>

(Sarcasm on) You must be correct Bob, as that was the first time I
posted.(sarcasim off)
Greg.

[Greg]

"bob wald" > wrote in message
...
> your dum greg.i said your altenator supplies your stereo though your
> battery.....can u understand????
>
Bob, I understand. We all do. Apparently you don't.
Greg.

[bob wald]

i'm so excited..waiting for my clarion eqs744..aahhhhhh
ill be #1..ill be #1...lol...lol
I AM KING.....

[bob wald]

look ..this clarion is perect for my set up....but if i had $2000+ stuff
it might not be good for you.
you go with your orion,rf,hifonics,kicker eqs.....

[bob wald]

greg..i think i seen you posting on my other threads before..but i didnt
answer you...n if i'm wrong about your stereo uses your battery also to
operate while your car is running.you take out yor battery after your
car starts.your stereo should work great...lol
king clarion...sound kinda good......boss king...

[bob wald]

weeeeeee