Pioneer DV563A - SACD ?

[jlkd]

I'm new to the world of SACD. I meandered around these boards but
didn't find an answer to my question although I'm sure someone has
asked it before.

I bought the Pioneer DV563A and a SACD disc. I was able to configure
its playback with little problem on that SACD player connected to my
Yamaha HTR 5280 receiver and my 5.1 surround system. The DVD player
is connected via an optical cable to the receiver. I next purchased a
few "Hybrid SACDs" and I now find I'm unable to configure the player
correctly; they do not play on my system. I've gone into the DVD MENU
and tried every option on the Pioneer player:

In the menu > 2ch Area/Multi-ch Area/CD Area. No playback on any of
these settings.

There is an addtional area in the menu> Digital Out/DTS Out/Linear
PCM Out.
I am using the "Digital Out" setting. There is a small paragraph
labeled: "NOTE...There is no digital output when playing SACDs and
some DVD-A discs regardless of this setting." Hmmmm. I don't quite
understand this.

Do I need to additionally connect the player using Analog outputs and
then switch between the Digital output and the PCM output when
respectively playing SACD and their Hybrid versions?

Appreciate any help/insight someone can offer. As mentioned, I don't
have problems with true SACD; just the HYBRIDs.

thanks
judith

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 3 Oct 2003 07:10:40 -0700, (jlkd) wrote:

>I'm new to the world of SACD. I meandered around these boards but
>didn't find an answer to my question although I'm sure someone has
>asked it before.
>
>I bought the Pioneer DV563A and a SACD disc. I was able to configure
>its playback with little problem on that SACD player connected to my
>Yamaha HTR 5280 receiver and my 5.1 surround system. The DVD player
>is connected via an optical cable to the receiver.

With digital (optical) connection, you cannot get the hi-rez output
from SACD or DVD-A. You must use analog outputs. I suspect that
the SACD that worked for you is a hybrid even if not so labeled.

> I next purchased a
>few "Hybrid SACDs" and I now find I'm unable to configure the player
>correctly; they do not play on my system. I've gone into the DVD MENU
>and tried every option on the Pioneer player:
>
>In the menu > 2ch Area/Multi-ch Area/CD Area. No playback on any of
>these settings.

See above.
>
>There is an addtional area in the menu> Digital Out/DTS Out/Linear
>PCM Out.
>I am using the "Digital Out" setting. There is a small paragraph
>labeled: "NOTE...There is no digital output when playing SACDs and
>some DVD-A discs regardless of this setting." Hmmmm. I don't quite
>understand this.

What do you not understand? No digital output; use analog.

>Do I need to additionally connect the player using Analog outputs and
>then switch between the Digital output and the PCM output when
>respectively playing SACD and their Hybrid versions?

You should use the analog outputs for SACD and DVD-A and the digital
output for CD and DVDs with DoblyDigital or DTS tracks.

>Appreciate any help/insight someone can offer. As mentioned, I don't
>have problems with true SACD; just the HYBRIDs.

Remarkable. I am surprised you got anything out the digital output
with non-hybrid SACD. Which one was it?

Kal

[bud]

"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote

> Remarkable. I am surprised you got anything out the digital output
> with non-hybrid SACD. Which one was it?

Why is that?

I've been able to output an optical signal with non hybrid SACD's from day
one. Usually I'll select the multi channel in for listening to SACD's but if
I change the input on the receiver to digital, I still have access to the
two channel audio.

My theory is that the dvd player is converting the SACD layer to 96/24, then
passing it through the digital output, to the receiver.

To be quite honest, I can't hear a difference between the analog or digital
signal when listening to two channel SACD's.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:59:50 GMT, "bud" > wrote:
>"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote
>> Remarkable. I am surprised you got anything out the digital output
>> with non-hybrid SACD. Which one was it?
>
>Why is that?
>
>I've been able to output an optical signal with non hybrid SACD's from day
>one. Usually I'll select the multi channel in for listening to SACD's but if
>I change the input on the receiver to digital, I still have access to the
>two channel audio.

From the CD layer, no doubt. There is no digital output from the DSD
layeras stated in the owner's manual and in practice. There are a few
players (Accuphase, dCs, yet-to-be-released new Sony) that will and
more will come in the future but it will be encrypted.

>My theory is that the dvd player is converting the SACD layer to 96/24, then
>passing it through the digital output, to the receiver.

Possibly but , if so, it's the first I know of to do this.

>To be quite honest, I can't hear a difference between the analog or digital
>signal when listening to two channel SACD's.

No comment.

Kal

[bud]

"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote

> From the CD layer, no doubt. There is no digital output from the DSD
> layeras stated in the owner's manual and in practice.

I'm talking about discs with no red book layer. The optical out on the dvd
player functions with these as well. In other words I don't need to use the
analog inputs to listen to SACD only discs.

> There are a few
> players (Accuphase, dCs, yet-to-be-released new Sony) that will and
> more will come in the future but it will be encrypted.

Firewire, yes. Already in use by Pioneer and Denon, and eventually the
encryption will be broken.

> >My theory is that the dvd player is converting the SACD layer to 96/24,
then
> >passing it through the digital output, to the receiver.
>
> Possibly but , if so, it's the first I know of to do this.

Well, it's either dithering or up sampling. Must be, otherwise the optical
signal would be dead on non hybrid discs.

> >To be quite honest, I can't hear a difference between the analog or
digital
> >signal when listening to two channel SACD's.
>
> No comment.

Ah yes, humorous, but probably a wise decision.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:09:18 GMT, "bud" > wrote:

>> >My theory is that the dvd player is converting the SACD layer to 96/24,
>then
>> >passing it through the digital output, to the receiver.
>>
>> Possibly but , if so, it's the first I know of to do this.
>
>Well, it's either dithering or up sampling. Must be, otherwise the optical
>signal would be dead on non hybrid discs.

Downsampling is much more like it and I still doubt it. Are you sure
that these are really not hybrid discs. None of the dozen or so
players I've used can do what you say this one is doing.

Kal

[jlkd]

Kalman Rubinson > wrote in message >...
> On 3 Oct 2003 07:10:40 -0700, (jlkd) wrote:
>
> >I'm new to the world of SACD. I meandered around these boards but
> >didn't find an answer to my question although I'm sure someone has
> >asked it before.
> >
> >I bought the Pioneer DV563A and a SACD disc. I was able to configure
> >its playback with little problem on that SACD player connected to my
> >Yamaha HTR 5280 receiver and my 5.1 surround system. The DVD player
> >is connected via an optical cable to the receiver.
>
> With digital (optical) connection, you cannot get the hi-rez output
> from SACD or DVD-A. You must use analog outputs. I suspect that
> the SACD that worked for you is a hybrid even if not so labeled.
>
> > I next purchased a
> >few "Hybrid SACDs" and I now find I'm unable to configure the player
> >correctly; they do not play on my system. I've gone into the DVD MENU
> >and tried every option on the Pioneer player:
> >
> >In the menu > 2ch Area/Multi-ch Area/CD Area. No playback on any of
> >these settings.
>
> See above.
> >
> >There is an addtional area in the menu> Digital Out/DTS Out/Linear
> >PCM Out.
> >I am using the "Digital Out" setting. There is a small paragraph
> >labeled: "NOTE...There is no digital output when playing SACDs and
> >some DVD-A discs regardless of this setting." Hmmmm. I don't quite
> >understand this.
>
> What do you not understand? No digital output; use analog.
>
> >Do I need to additionally connect the player using Analog outputs and
> >then switch between the Digital output and the PCM output when
> >respectively playing SACD and their Hybrid versions?
>
> You should use the analog outputs for SACD and DVD-A and the digital
> output for CD and DVDs with DoblyDigital or DTS tracks.
>
> >Appreciate any help/insight someone can offer. As mentioned, I don't
> >have problems with true SACD; just the HYBRIDs.
>
> Remarkable. I am surprised you got anything out the digital output
> with non-hybrid SACD. Which one was it?
>
> Kal


Hi Kal

I thought I was reading the instructions pretty carefully. Not once
did it mention that optical is for CD/DVD and analog for the SACD
except for that one small blurb aobut the "digital outputs." I guess
I should have been able to surmise that I needed the analog connection
but the fact remains the "UP" SACD Peter Gabriel dics was playing with
the digital output and the menu was "SACD". It was only released as
SACD while the rest of his collection is Hybrid SACD. I am sure of
that fact. I have the original CD release and then I bought the SACD
version.

I used both my normal CD player (playing the regular CD) and the
Pioneer SACD player (SACD disc). I switched back and forth; comparing
and contrasting the two versions. The SACD was very different with
sounds emerging from the different speakers and traveling around the
room. The normal CD did nothing of the sort. I only had the
digital output connected. I guess that was why I was confused. It
was working for the SACD version.

I might have appeared rather naive about the various nature of the
analog and digital output and their proper connections. The Pioneer
played the the SACD and it is not a Hybrid because it neither says it
is a Hybrid nor was released as such.

It still makes sense to me that I should be able to play the Hybrid
when I direct the Pioneer menu to "CD" output through the optical
cable. It should then at least play the normal CD layer through that
optical output. At least that is what I reasoned should have
happened. I guess not.

I think I understand now. I will connect via the analog cables. SACD
and Hybrids will only play through those analog connections. The
Hybrid won't play thorugh the digital cable even though I use the "CD
area" as referenced below...at least not on this player:

In the menu > 2ch Area/Multi-ch Area/CD Area.

thanks very much for your help.

jd

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 3 Oct 2003 13:36:30 -0700, (jlkd) wrote:

>I thought I was reading the instructions pretty carefully. Not once
>did it mention that optical is for CD/DVD and analog for the SACD
>except for that one small blurb aobut the "digital outputs." I guess
>I should have been able to surmise that I needed the analog connection
>but the fact remains the "UP" SACD Peter Gabriel dics was playing with
>the digital output and the menu was "SACD". It was only released as
>SACD while the rest of his collection is Hybrid SACD. I am sure of
>that fact. I have the original CD release and then I bought the SACD
>version.

I would be quite surprised. But Amazon
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008W2UC/103-7158807-5214212?v=glance)
says it's a hybrid as does every other site I googled on it.

>I used both my normal CD player (playing the regular CD) and the
>Pioneer SACD player (SACD disc). I switched back and forth; comparing
>and contrasting the two versions. The SACD was very different with
>sounds emerging from the different speakers and traveling around the
>room. The normal CD did nothing of the sort. I only had the
>digital output connected. I guess that was why I was confused. It
>was working for the SACD version.

You were comparing the CD with the redbook CD layer of the hybrid.

>I might have appeared rather naive about the various nature of the
>analog and digital output and their proper connections. The Pioneer
>played the the SACD and it is not a Hybrid because it neither says it
>is a Hybrid nor was released as such.

See above or Google.

>It still makes sense to me that I should be able to play the Hybrid
>when I direct the Pioneer menu to "CD" output through the optical
>cable. It should then at least play the normal CD layer through that
>optical output. At least that is what I reasoned should have
>happened. I guess not.

It should. Many do like the Sony XA777ES and the Linn Unidisk I have
now.

>I think I understand now. I will connect via the analog cables. SACD
>and Hybrids will only play through those analog connections. The
>Hybrid won't play thorugh the digital cable even though I use the "CD
>area" as referenced below...at least not on this player:

OK.

Kal

[bud]

"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote

> Downsampling is much more like it and I still doubt it. Are you sure
> that these are really not hybrid discs.

Yes, most definitely. Both discs state the following : "designed for use in
super audio cd players only". One is Journey's "Escape", and the other is
Satriani's "Strange Beautiful Music".

> None of the dozen or so
> players I've used can do what you say this one is doing.

Not sure how to explain it, but it does work. I'm using a Pioneer DV-45a
hooked to VSX-45TX, and the down-sampling is turned of.

Perhaps it has something to do with the combination of the receivers
internal dac's, and the dvd player's output. The 45a's manual makes no
reference to this phenomena, but the 45TX's manual does mention something
about a HiBit upsampling mode, but unless I'm mistaken, this must be
selected manually and is in no way the default.

Still, I was like you and was under the assumption that digital output was
not possible with SACD's, unless you had firewire and the matching
proprietary input on the receiver/preamp. I have neither, yet somehow can
listen to two channel SACD's with an optical connection.

Strange indeed.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:50:45 GMT, "bud" > wrote:

>Still, I was like you and was under the assumption that digital output was
>not possible with SACD's, unless you had firewire and the matching
>proprietary input on the receiver/preamp. I have neither, yet somehow can
>listen to two channel SACD's with an optical connection.
>
>Strange indeed.

Strange and interesting.

I really wonder what it is doing internally.

Kal

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:10:28 GMT, "bud" > wrote:

>Just figured it out, and you'll have to forgive my ignorance on the matter,
>but you are correct. The optical out does not function with SACD's. The
>receiver automatically changes the input signal to analog when it realizes
>the digital signal is dead. All I had to do to figure this out was unhook
>the analog cables, and try one of the discs.
>
>Thanks for your input though. It forced me to look closer at how the two
>components work.

Whew!

KR


>
>
>
>

[bud]

"Kalman Rubinson" > wrote

> Strange and interesting.
>
> I really wonder what it is doing internally.
>
> Kal

Kal,

Just figured it out, and you'll have to forgive my ignorance on the matter,
but you are correct. The optical out does not function with SACD's. The
receiver automatically changes the input signal to analog when it realizes
the digital signal is dead. All I had to do to figure this out was unhook
the analog cables, and try one of the discs.

Thanks for your input though. It forced me to look closer at how the two
components work.