OT : Anti-torture

[Lionel]

http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20050926/692811_us0905.pdf

[[email protected]]

Lionel wrote:
> http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20050926/692811_us0905.pdf


Cher Lionel. thank you for giving publicity in this audio forum to
a long report about torture in Iraq issued by an U.S. Human Rights
group resident in New York next reprinted by Le Monde.
The facts are indeed shameful. No doubt you noted that they were
first revealed by American soldiers in Iraq and then pursued in the
American military courts. You may have heard also that the first one of
those accused of atrocities Pte England is awaiting her sentence.
To redress the balance you may now tell us how many of the
Foreign Legion and other French Army members participating in the war
in Algeria were sued and sentenced in a French military court. I do
remember accusations by J.P. Sartre and others
of widespread torture of Algerian militants by the French troops in
that war.
Veuillez accepter mes sentiments... etc. Ludovic Mirabel

[Lionel]

wrote:
> Lionel wrote:
>
>>http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20050926/692811_us0905.pdf
>
>
>
> Cher Lionel. thank you for giving publicity in this audio forum to
> a long report about torture in Iraq issued by an U.S. Human Rights
> group resident in New York next reprinted by Le Monde.

First error : Human Rights Watch is an international
organization.
http://www.hrw.org/about/whoweare.html

> The facts are indeed shameful. No doubt you noted that they were
> first revealed by American soldiers in Iraq

That's true.

> and then pursued in the
> American military courts.

LOL ! :-(
Page 22 of the report :
"It’s unjust to hold only lower-ranking soldiers accountable
for something that is so clearly, at a minimum, an officer
corps problem, and probably a combination with the executive
branch of government.
It’s almost infuriating to me. It is infuriating to me that
officers are not lined up to accept responsibility for what
happened."


> You may have heard also that the first one of
> those accused of atrocities Pte England is awaiting her sentence.
> To redress the balance

Which balance are you talking about ?
What would have you written hereafter if I was German ?

I don't know what are your sins, Ludo, but the most bigot of
our readers have surely appreciated your little seance of
self-lashing. :-)


> you may now tell us how many of the
> Foreign Legion and other French Army members participating in the war
> in Algeria were sued and sentenced in a French military court. I do
> remember accusations by J.P. Sartre and others
> of widespread torture of Algerian militants by the French troops in
> that war.

Forget the Foreign Legion... what they have done was
retaliation "only".
In Algeria the torture was very well organized with
professional, etc... 99.99% of the common soldiers didn't
know anything about it.

> Veuillez accepter mes sentiments... etc. Ludovic Mirabel


I just hope for you that you have more respect for audio
than for history.

[surf]

"Lionel" > wrote
>
> Forget the Foreign Legion... what they have done was retaliation "only".


Come on, Lionel, the treatment of the Iraqi soldiers was
retaliation as well. Iraq soldiers are well known to have
tortured and killed their own people, including women.
These prisoners were mostly humiliated.
It was probably more like, "How tough are you now,
asshole?!?!" Not, "We don't have anything to do.
Let's torture some prisoners."

[Lionel]

Sam's surf wrote:

> "Lionel" > wrote
>
>>Forget the Foreign Legion... what they have done was retaliation "only".
>
>
>
> Come on, Lionel, the treatment of the Iraqi soldiers was
> retaliation as well. Iraq soldiers are well known to have
> tortured and killed their own people, including women.
> These prisoners were mostly humiliated.
> It was probably more like, "How tough are you now,
> asshole?!?!" Not, "We don't have anything to do.
> Let's torture some prisoners."

I understand your point.
In Algeria when the "fellaghas" captured French legionnaires
or parachutists they often tortured them and finally exposed
them with the throat cut and the sex in the mouth. This is
why I was speaking of "retaliation" in this case.

OTOH there were special units in French army who were in
charge of gathering information and they used to torture
their prisonners.

[[email protected]]

Lionel wrote:
> wrote:
> > Lionel wrote:
> >
> >>http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20050926/692811_us0905.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > Cher Lionel. thank you for giving publicity in this audio forum to
> > a long report about torture in Iraq issued by an U.S. Human Rights
> > group resident in New York next reprinted by Le Monde.
>
> First error : Human Rights Watch is an international
> organization.
> http://www.hrw.org/about/whoweare.html
>
> > The facts are indeed shameful. No doubt you noted that they were
> > first revealed by American soldiers in Iraq
>
> That's true.
>
> > and then pursued in the
> > American military courts.
>
> LOL ! :-(
> Page 22 of the report :
> "It's unjust to hold only lower-ranking soldiers accountable
> for something that is so clearly, at a minimum, an officer
> corps problem, and probably a combination with the executive
> branch of government.
> It's almost infuriating to me. It is infuriating to me that
> officers are not lined up to accept responsibility for what
> happened."
>
>
> > You may have heard also that the first one of
> > those accused of atrocities Pte England is awaiting her sentence.
> > To redress the balance
>
> Which balance are you talking about ?
> What would have you written hereafter if I was German ?
>
> I don't know what are your sins, Ludo, but the most bigot of
> our readers have surely appreciated your little seance of
> self-lashing. :-)
>
I fail to follow the logic or the sense

> > you may now tell us how many of the
> > Foreign Legion and other French Army members participating in the war
> > in Algeria were sued and sentenced in a French military court. I do
> > remember accusations by J.P. Sartre and others
> > of widespread torture of Algerian militants by the French troops in
> > that war.
>
> Forget the Foreign Legion... what they have done was
> retaliation "only".
> In Algeria the torture was very well organized with
> professional, etc... 99.99% of the common soldiers didn't
> know anything about it.
>
> > Veuillez accepter mes sentiments... etc. Ludovic Mirabel
>
>
> I just hope for you that you have more respect for audio
> than for history.

I'm reluctant to continue this discussion that you saw fit,
inappropriately, to begin in an audio forum.

You justify the French Army's never punished atrocities in
the Algerian war because they were "reprisals"and "retaliation"
Of course the Algerians said that they were only retaliating and the
French said etc. etc.
All the atrocities in the recent atrocious European history were just
"reprisals". When the Nazis invaded Tschechoslovakia it was just
"reprisals" for the supposed persecution of Sudeten Germans. Ditto
in Poland. Ditto when they started the Holocaust. Just a 'reprisal"
for the Jews starting the war against peace-loving Germany Ditto when
they massacred the village of Oradour in your country- reprisals for
the (very modest) French nonPetainist resistance.
And Lenin started the Red terror as a "reprisal" and so on and so
on.
Atrocity is still an atrocity whether you call it retaliation or not.
And letting the perpetrators scot- free is a parody of morality even if
it happens in France. So plese do no get on a high moral antitorture
stand- except when ut is French.
I admire the unparalled French contribution to civilization. But I'm
afraid that many in the E.U. are giving vent to unpleasant
Antiamericanism forgetting that without U.S. (with all its faults)
there would have been either a swastika or a Red Star beaming from the
Eiffel Tower. And where would the Kosovo and Bosnian Moslems be if they
waited for their E.U. neighbours to help them?
Your compulsion to post this in an audio forum is one typical
manifestation of the Western European resentment (mixed with envy) of
U.S.
Ludovic Mirabel

[Lionel]

In . com>,
wrote :

>
> Lionel wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Lionel wrote:
>> >
>> >>http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20050926/692811_us0905.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cher Lionel. thank you for giving publicity in this audio forum to
>> > a long report about torture in Iraq issued by an U.S. Human Rights
>> > group resident in New York next reprinted by Le Monde.
>>
>> First error : Human Rights Watch is an international
>> organization.
>> http://www.hrw.org/about/whoweare.html
>>
>> > The facts are indeed shameful. No doubt you noted that they were
>> > first revealed by American soldiers in Iraq
>>
>> That's true.
>>
>> > and then pursued in the
>> > American military courts.
>>
>> LOL ! :-(
>> Page 22 of the report :
>> "It's unjust to hold only lower-ranking soldiers accountable
>> for something that is so clearly, at a minimum, an officer
>> corps problem, and probably a combination with the executive
>> branch of government.
>> It's almost infuriating to me. It is infuriating to me that
>> officers are not lined up to accept responsibility for what
>> happened."
>>
>>
>> > You may have heard also that the first one of
>> > those accused of atrocities Pte England is awaiting her sentence.
>> > To redress the balance
>>
>> Which balance are you talking about ?
>> What would have you written hereafter if I was German ?
>>
>> I don't know what are your sins, Ludo, but the most bigot of
>> our readers have surely appreciated your little seance of
>> self-lashing. :-)
>>
> I fail to follow the logic or the sense


Considering what follow I'm not really surprised.


>> > you may now tell us how many of the
>> > Foreign Legion and other French Army members participating in the war
>> > in Algeria were sued and sentenced in a French military court. I do
>> > remember accusations by J.P. Sartre and others
>> > of widespread torture of Algerian militants by the French troops in
>> > that war.
>>
>> Forget the Foreign Legion... what they have done was
>> retaliation "only".
>> In Algeria the torture was very well organized with
>> professional, etc... 99.99% of the common soldiers didn't
>> know anything about it.
>>
>> > Veuillez accepter mes sentiments... etc. Ludovic Mirabel
>>
>>
>> I just hope for you that you have more respect for audio
>> than for history.
>
> I'm reluctant to continue this discussion that you saw fit,
> inappropriately, to begin in an audio forum.

It's the case of 99% of the discussions on RAO.
I must say that I am flattered that you especially chose my thread to
display your bias, incompetence and stubbornness.

> You justify the French Army's never punished atrocities in
> the Algerian war because they were "reprisals"and "retaliation"

That's a lie. I don't justify, I describe. I don't advocate, I explain.
All these crimes should have been severely punished.

> Of course the Algerians said that they were only retaliating and the
> French said etc. etc.
> All the atrocities in the recent atrocious European history were just
> "reprisals". When the Nazis invaded Tschechoslovakia it was just
> "reprisals" for the supposed persecution of Sudeten Germans. Ditto
> in Poland. Ditto when they started the Holocaust. Just a 'reprisal"
> for the Jews starting the war against peace-loving Germany Ditto when
> they massacred the village of Oradour in your country- reprisals for
> the (very modest) French nonPetainist resistance.
> And Lenin started the Red terror as a "reprisal" and so on and so
> on.
> Atrocity is still an atrocity whether you call it retaliation or not.
> And letting the perpetrators scot- free is a parody of morality even if
> it happens in France. So plese do no get on a high moral antitorture
> stand- except when ut is French.

I note that you have *involuntarily* brought only pertinent point.
It is interesting to compare the 2 wars because they are both colonialist
wars.


> I admire the unparalled French contribution to civilization. But I'm
> afraid that many in the E.U. are giving vent to unpleasant
> Antiamericanism forgetting that without U.S. (with all its faults)
> there would have been either a swastika or a Red Star beaming from the
> Eiffel Tower.

I'm sure you are joking, right ?
A recent pool has shown that a little bit more 50% of the Americans are
"anti-French" but IMHO it's not really a problem since more than 80% of
them were republicans...
Do you believe me now if I tell you that I am not anti-american ? ;-)

> And where would the Kosovo and Bosnian Moslems be if they
> waited for their E.U. neighbours to help them?

That's true.

> Your compulsion to post this in an audio forum is one typical
> manifestation of the Western European resentment (mixed with envy) of
> U.S.

Envy ? LOL ! Why ?
I just hope that your compulsion to exhibit your bias and incompetence will
not be brought to the USA credit. :-)