Sibilance problems with records...

[David Goodwin]

Lemme preface this: I am a bonehead when it comes to hardware, and
almost a total idiot when it comes to turntables. The sheer amount of
variables (tracking force, alignment, etc.) intimidate me to no end,
so please go easy on me...I simply won't understand unless it's put in
very newbie language.

That said:

I recently replaced my cartridge (P-mount) with an Audio Technica
cartridge. My old one was damaged, and on a friend's advice I got the
AT as a replacement.

Now:

I'm getting some *major* sibilance/high-frequency problems on some
albums, the problem being that I have no idea if they've always been
there or if it's this cartridge that's introducing them. The problem
shows up most frequently as a kind of sibilance...it isn't, however,
just that the "S"es are particularly harsh, but that some instances
introduce tons of noise into the signal. The sibilance is very
"dirty," in other words, with a burst of distortion often accompanying
it.

Additionally, certain periods of high-frequency activity often
introduce a lot of noise into the signal.

Could this problem be cartridge related? Is it fixable? Might my
records just be kinda trashed?:-(

Thanks,

-D

[Bruce J. Richman]

David Goodwin wrote:


>Lemme preface this: I am a bonehead when it comes to hardware, and
>almost a total idiot when it comes to turntables. The sheer amount of
>variables (tracking force, alignment, etc.) intimidate me to no end,
>so please go easy on me...I simply won't understand unless it's put in
>very newbie language.
>
>That said:
>
>I recently replaced my cartridge (P-mount) with an Audio Technica
>cartridge. My old one was damaged, and on a friend's advice I got the
>AT as a replacement.
>
>Now:
>
>I'm getting some *major* sibilance/high-frequency problems on some
>albums, the problem being that I have no idea if they've always been
>there or if it's this cartridge that's introducing them. The problem
>shows up most frequently as a kind of sibilance...it isn't, however,
>just that the "S"es are particularly harsh, but that some instances
>introduce tons of noise into the signal. The sibilance is very
>"dirty," in other words, with a burst of distortion often accompanying
>it.
>
>Additionally, certain periods of high-frequency activity often
>introduce a lot of noise into the signal.
>
>Could this problem be cartridge related? Is it fixable? Might my
>records just be kinda trashed?:-(
>
>Thanks,
>
>-D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

If you are only noticing this type of noise/distortion on certain records in
your collection but not with others having somewhat the same type of content,
I'd recommend you first consider plain old record dirt as one possible culprit.
How have you been cleaning your records, assuming you have? If you've been
using only something like a Discwasher system or carbon-fibre brush to clear
away surface dust, chances are your records still have enough embedded dirt
which can't be seen, but can definitely be heard!

I'd suggest you try and find somebody (even a dealer) who has either a record
cleaning machine using a liquiid cleaner/vacuum dry combination (e.g. a VPI or
Nitty Gritty RCM) or somebody that has access to the Disc Doctor cleaning kit,
which includes both brushes and a specially formulated, non-alcohol-based
cleaning solution. You can read about the Disc Doctor system at
www.discdoc.com, where instructions, prices, etc. are given. If you have a
significant number of records, you might want to invest in a kit. The nice
thing about this product is that for most records, you only have to clean them
once to get maximum benefits. I can tell you from personal experience that the
differences in S/N ratio for records cleaned with this product is quite
striking in many cases.

If cleaning your records doesn't seem to make a difference, I'd then suggest
that you take your turntable in to a reputable dealer experienced in
turntable/tonearm/cartridge setup and have him check everything out.



Bruce J. Richman

[David Goodwin]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:07:32 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


>Yes, if it's the hardware. Trying starting with the tracking force at the
>upper end of the suggested range and see if it's still there. If not,
>gradually drop the tracking force in small increments until you begin to
>hear it and then raise the force to just above that threshold.
>

How exactly do I *do* this? I always hear people talking about
tracking force, but I have no idea how to adjust it.


>One other thing you might check for from experience: often a new stylus
>(especially some of the ATs that dig deep into the groove) will dig out dirt
>and collect it behind the stylus. It may not be easily visible to the naked
>eye, but it can certainly have the effect of adding harshness to the sound.
>Use a magnifying glass and carefully brush out any dirt that may be trapped
>behind the tip.


Will any sort of brush do?

For a quick MP3 clip of two sibilance examples, please go to:

http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sdistort.mp3

and

http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sample.mp3

All three are from *different* records.

I'm really panicking about this...I changed my cartridge because it
was damaged, and I spent a lot of money on this one..I don't want to
have to replace it again!:-(


-D

[CJT]

David Goodwin wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:07:32 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
>
>
>>Yes, if it's the hardware. Trying starting with the tracking force at the
>>upper end of the suggested range and see if it's still there. If not,
>>gradually drop the tracking force in small increments until you begin to
>>hear it and then raise the force to just above that threshold.
>>
>
>
> How exactly do I *do* this? I always hear people talking about
> tracking force, but I have no idea how to adjust it.

If you changed cartridges and didn't adjust the tracking force, that
is almost certainly your problem.

Precisely how it's done varies from turntable to turntable. A stylus
gauge will help get it right, since the markings on turntables can be
inaccurate.

>
>
>
>>One other thing you might check for from experience: often a new stylus
>>(especially some of the ATs that dig deep into the groove) will dig out dirt
>>and collect it behind the stylus. It may not be easily visible to the naked
>>eye, but it can certainly have the effect of adding harshness to the sound.
>>Use a magnifying glass and carefully brush out any dirt that may be trapped
>>behind the tip.
>
>
>
> Will any sort of brush do?
>
> For a quick MP3 clip of two sibilance examples, please go to:
>
> http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sdistort.mp3
>
> and
>
> http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sample.mp3
>
> All three are from *different* records.
>
> I'm really panicking about this...I changed my cartridge because it
> was damaged, and I spent a lot of money on this one..I don't want to
> have to replace it again!:-(
>
>
> -D

[Shrivel]

"David Goodwin" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:07:32 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
>
> >Yes, if it's the hardware. Trying starting with the tracking force at
the
> >upper end of the suggested range and see if it's still there. If not,
> >gradually drop the tracking force in small increments until you begin to
> >hear it and then raise the force to just above that threshold.
> >
>
> How exactly do I *do* this? I always hear people talking about
> tracking force, but I have no idea how to adjust it.

That's gonna depend on your turntable. Some have knobs, some have
adjustment screws. My Dual uses a counterweight at the end of the tonearm
that I rotate to adjust the tracking force. The proper procedures will vary
depending on your setup.

Here's a couple guides that might help...

http://www.walkeraudio.com/fine_tuning_your_turntable.htm

http://www.classicrecs.com/newsletter/newsletter/newsletter.cfm?Article=57

http://www.amtrakdjs.org/essays/ttsetup.html
>
>
> >One other thing you might check for from experience: often a new stylus
> >(especially some of the ATs that dig deep into the groove) will dig out
dirt
> >and collect it behind the stylus. It may not be easily visible to the
naked
> >eye, but it can certainly have the effect of adding harshness to the
sound.
> >Use a magnifying glass and carefully brush out any dirt that may be
trapped
> >behind the tip.
>
>
> Will any sort of brush do?

Any little brush like a toothbrush should be fine. Just be careful to avoid
bending the stylus - you want to brush only the diamond tip of it.

>
> For a quick MP3 clip of two sibilance examples, please go to:
>
> http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sdistort.mp3
>
> and
>
> http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sample.mp3
>
> All three are from *different* records.

Okay, I hear the sibilance, but it's certainly not as bad as I've heard
other times. Doesn't sound like a dirty stylus - probably just a bright
sounding cartridge that's being run at a low tracking force in combination
with a bright pre-amp stage. My guess just from your samples is that a
tracking force adjustment will take care of it.





>
> I'm really panicking about this...I changed my cartridge because it
> was damaged, and I spent a lot of money on this one..I don't want to
> have to replace it again!:-(
>
>
> -D

[Thomas A]

"Shrivel" > wrote in message >...
> "David Goodwin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:07:32 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Yes, if it's the hardware. Trying starting with the tracking force at
> the
> > >upper end of the suggested range and see if it's still there. If not,
> > >gradually drop the tracking force in small increments until you begin to
> > >hear it and then raise the force to just above that threshold.
> > >
> >
> > How exactly do I *do* this? I always hear people talking about
> > tracking force, but I have no idea how to adjust it.
>
> That's gonna depend on your turntable. Some have knobs, some have
> adjustment screws. My Dual uses a counterweight at the end of the tonearm
> that I rotate to adjust the tracking force. The proper procedures will vary
> depending on your setup.
>
> Here's a couple guides that might help...
>
> http://www.walkeraudio.com/fine_tuning_your_turntable.htm
>
> http://www.classicrecs.com/newsletter/newsletter/newsletter.cfm?Article=57
>
> http://www.amtrakdjs.org/essays/ttsetup.html
> >
> >
> > >One other thing you might check for from experience: often a new stylus
> > >(especially some of the ATs that dig deep into the groove) will dig out
> dirt
> > >and collect it behind the stylus. It may not be easily visible to the
> naked
> > >eye, but it can certainly have the effect of adding harshness to the
> sound.
> > >Use a magnifying glass and carefully brush out any dirt that may be
> trapped
> > >behind the tip.
> >
> >
> > Will any sort of brush do?
>
> Any little brush like a toothbrush should be fine. Just be careful to avoid
> bending the stylus - you want to brush only the diamond tip of it.
>
> >
> > For a quick MP3 clip of two sibilance examples, please go to:
> >
> > http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sdistort.mp3
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/sample.mp3
> >
> > All three are from *different* records.
>
> Okay, I hear the sibilance, but it's certainly not as bad as I've heard
> other times. Doesn't sound like a dirty stylus - probably just a bright
> sounding cartridge that's being run at a low tracking force in combination
> with a bright pre-amp stage. My guess just from your samples is that a
> tracking force adjustment will take care of it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm really panicking about this...I changed my cartridge because it
> > was damaged, and I spent a lot of money on this one..I don't want to
> > have to replace it again!:-(
> >
> >
> > -D


There are many things that can be tried, checking stylus ange (VTA),
tracking force (VTF) and clean the record with liquid and vaccum. The
most difficult sibilance record I have is the Cowboy Junkies Sweet
Jane (se below). Changing cartridge to the Shure V15VxMR did improve
things quite a bit in the high frequencies. The record grooves can be
destroyed after misuse with old cartridges, and changing to another
type of stylus can sometimes improve high frequencies.

http://hem.bredband.net/b113928/sweetjaneSV.wav

[Arny Krueger]

"David Goodwin" > wrote in message


> I'm getting some *major* sibilance/high-frequency problems on some
> albums, the problem being that I have no idea if they've always been
> there or if it's this cartridge that's introducing them.

Kudos on perceiving that it's hard to tell whether an audible change is due
to something that was always there but being suppressed getting through, or
whether the change is due to the new component manufacturing distorted
sounds of its own.

Most experienced hands judge these kinds of situations by listening to a
range of recordings, and applying logical deduction to their judgments. If
the excess sibilance appears only on old recordings, then it is probably
correct to blame the recordings. If the excess sibilance shows up on new
recordings but primarily at high levels, then the problem is more likely to
be with the new cartridge.

> The problem
> shows up most frequently as a kind of sibilance...it isn't, however,
> just that the "S"es are particularly harsh, but that some instances
> introduce tons of noise into the signal. The sibilance is very
> "dirty," in other words, with a burst of distortion often accompanying
> it.

If this happens with recordings known to be in good shape, the finger points
more directly at the cartridge or how it is set up. Can you increase the
tracking force? Is there some chance that despite all the supposed
guarantees of proper adjustment inherent in the P-mount system, the
cartridge is still misaligned?

If the problem is more prevalent at the beginning of the recording, you
might want to look at your anti-skating adjustment since the skating force
is largest for the outer grooves.

> Additionally, certain periods of high-frequency activity often
> introduce a lot of noise into the signal.

Sounds like mistracking. Adding stylus force may be a solution. Perchance
the stylus has picked up a big wad of dirt and needs to be cleaned?

> Could this problem be cartridge related?

Maybe.

>Is it fixable?

Maybe. One possible fix might be another cartridge.

>Might my records just be kinda trashed?:-(

Probably not all of them, but possibly the ones you like to listen to the
most.

[Shrivel]

I don't think anyone forgot it, but the original poster is obviously new to
vinyl and turntables, so he's pretty much going to have to stick to the
basics for now. Tweaking things like tracking angle, antiskate and
cartridge alignment are royal pains for even the most experienced turntable
users. If his turntable is anything like mine (a Dual) setting VTA may not
even be possible. Setting the tracking force is an adjustment that can be
done by an inexperienced user fairly easily and has the best chance of
curing his sibilance problems.



"Armand" > wrote in message
...
> Has everyone forgotten tracking angle? This must be tweaked with each
> individual record or sibilance is one of the major results amongst other
> anomalies like stage width and depth. The list is quite long actually.
>
>
>
>
>
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >"David Goodwin" > wrote in message
>
> >
> >> I'm getting some *major* sibilance/high-frequency problems on some
> >> albums, the problem being that I have no idea if they've always been
> >> there or if it's this cartridge that's introducing them.
> >
> >Kudos on perceiving that it's hard to tell whether an audible change is
due
> >to something that was always there but being suppressed getting through,
> or
> >whether the change is due to the new component manufacturing distorted
> >sounds of its own.
> >
> >Most experienced hands judge these kinds of situations by listening to a
> >range of recordings, and applying logical deduction to their judgments.
If
> >the excess sibilance appears only on old recordings, then it is probably
> >correct to blame the recordings. If the excess sibilance shows up on new
> >recordings but primarily at high levels, then the problem is more likely
to
> >be with the new cartridge.
> >
> >> The problem
> >> shows up most frequently as a kind of sibilance...it isn't, however,
> >> just that the "S"es are particularly harsh, but that some instances
> >> introduce tons of noise into the signal. The sibilance is very
> >> "dirty," in other words, with a burst of distortion often accompanying
> >> it.
> >
> >If this happens with recordings known to be in good shape, the finger
points
> >more directly at the cartridge or how it is set up. Can you increase the
> >tracking force? Is there some chance that despite all the supposed
> >guarantees of proper adjustment inherent in the P-mount system, the
> >cartridge is still misaligned?
> >
> >If the problem is more prevalent at the beginning of the recording, you
> >might want to look at your anti-skating adjustment since the skating
force
> >is largest for the outer grooves.
> >
> >> Additionally, certain periods of high-frequency activity often
> >> introduce a lot of noise into the signal.
> >
> >Sounds like mistracking. Adding stylus force may be a solution. Perchance
> >the stylus has picked up a big wad of dirt and needs to be cleaned?
> >
> >> Could this problem be cartridge related?
> >
> >Maybe.
> >
> >>Is it fixable?
> >
> >Maybe. One possible fix might be another cartridge.
> >
> >>Might my records just be kinda trashed?:-(
> >
> >Probably not all of them, but possibly the ones you like to listen to the
> >most.
> >
> >
> >
>

[Arny Krueger]

"Armand" > wrote in message

> Has everyone forgotten tracking angle? This must be tweaked with each
> individual record or sibilance is one of the major results amongst
> other anomalies like stage width and depth. The list is quite long
> actually.

VTA has some significance, but it's being vastly overstated here.

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:13:14 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Armand" > wrote in message

>> Has everyone forgotten tracking angle? This must be tweaked with each
>> individual record or sibilance is one of the major results amongst
>> other anomalies like stage width and depth. The list is quite long
>> actually.
>
>VTA has some significance, but it's being vastly overstated here.

That depends on the stylus profile. I use an 'old-fashioned'
elliptical which is not particularly sensitive to VTA, but the more
modern 'line contact' profiles can be badly affected by VTA.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

[Arny Krueger]

"Stewart Pinkerton" > wrote in message


> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:13:14 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:

>> "Armand" > wrote in message
>>

>>> Has everyone forgotten tracking angle? This must be tweaked with
>>> each individual record or sibilance is one of the major results
>>> amongst other anomalies like stage width and depth. The list is
>>> quite long actually.

>> VTA has some significance, but it's being vastly overstated here.

> That depends on the stylus profile. I use an 'old-fashioned'
> elliptical which is not particularly sensitive to VTA, but the more
> modern 'line contact' profiles can be badly affected by VTA.

More-or-less agreed.

That modern line-contact styli are more sensitive to VTA than classic
conicals is reflected in the relevant classic AES papers. However, those
same papers find a reasonable acceptance range even for line-contact styli.

As I recall, it's at least +/- 5 degrees, maybe more like a 15 degree range.
There is an optimum point, but performance drops off less than precipitously
on either side of it. While missing optimum by a lot can cause audible high
frequency IM, sibilance won't necessarily be the audible consequences with
every record.

[Armand]

Ummm..... so...... there's no aurgument.........

VTA can contribute to sibilance in vinyl reproduction and so can TF and
anti-skate of course, especially in one channel. All TT's incorporate these
basic adjutments But suppose it doesn't solve the sib problem? So what now?

Duh....Adjustable VTA. It can make or break a vinyl system. That was my point.
A TT without VTA adjustment, IMO, is trash and destined for bad sound. If
you're going to do it up with vinyl, then VTA adjustment is a must.


In article >,
says...
>
>On 31 Aug 2003 12:19:15 GMT, (Armand) wrote:
>
>>Hey Pinky, I thought maybe you'd left RAO for a career in the Austin Powers
>>flicks or maybe you finally figured out your Apogees suck and did yourself
in,
>>but I see your posting on other NG's still carrying the ABX flag, a blindfold
>>and a cigarette.
>>
>>Elliptical or not, VTA was always critical in minimizing sibilance on vinyl
>>provided it wasn't something inherent in the recording itself. Cheap
>>microphones are notorious for this.
>
>Shame that you're too damn stupid to notice that I already said this.
>Still the poster boy for Down's Syndrome, are we?
>--
>
>Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

[David Goodwin]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:03:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:


>Most experienced hands judge these kinds of situations by listening to a
>range of recordings, and applying logical deduction to their judgments. If
>the excess sibilance appears only on old recordings, then it is probably
>correct to blame the recordings. If the excess sibilance shows up on new
>recordings but primarily at high levels, then the problem is more likely to
>be with the new cartridge.

It seems to show up pretty much everywhere...not on all records all of
the time, but on enough variety with enough frequency to bother me,
esp. when I *bought* the damn thing to finally transfer stuff over.
>
>If this happens with recordings known to be in good shape, the finger points
>more directly at the cartridge or how it is set up. Can you increase the
>tracking force? Is there some chance that despite all the supposed
>guarantees of proper adjustment inherent in the P-mount system, the
>cartridge is still misaligned?


I don't know. I don't have the instructions for the turntable...I
never did. It's second-hand. I don't know what this "tracking force"
is supposed to look like, or what I'm supposed to do with it.

EDUCATE.

>
>If the problem is more prevalent at the beginning of the recording, you
>might want to look at your anti-skating adjustment since the skating force
>is largest for the outer grooves.

Nah, it frequently happens in end-of-siders.


>Sounds like mistracking. Adding stylus force may be a solution. Perchance
>the stylus has picked up a big wad of dirt and needs to be cleaned?

This doesn't *look* like the case, but then again, I suppose "big"
here is very relative.

Have you listened to the MP3s? I could throw up a few more. Generally,
the signal suddenly has a lot more clicks/pops when lots of
high-frequency info is present.

>
>> Could this problem be cartridge related?
>
>Maybe.
>
>>Is it fixable?
>
>Maybe. One possible fix might be another cartridge.

Ugh.

>
>>Might my records just be kinda trashed?:-(
>
>Probably not all of them, but possibly the ones you like to listen to the
>most.


Yeah.

Thanks,




-D

[David Goodwin]

On 29 Aug 2003 06:35:17 GMT, (Bruce J. Richman)
wrote:


>Hopefully, you have an instruction manual for whatever turntable you are using.
> Different brands and models have different ways of adjusting tracking force.
>One common method is to look for a counterweight on the tonearm at the opposite
>end from the cartridge and try and adjust that to provide more or less pressure
>at the cartridge end.
>

So what I'm doing, then, is changing the weight with which the
cartridge enters the grooves? How would this affect sibilance?




-D

[Arny Krueger]

"David Goodwin" > wrote in message

> On 29 Aug 2003 06:35:17 GMT, (Bruce J. Richman)
> wrote:
>
>
>> Hopefully, you have an instruction manual for whatever turntable you
>> are using. Different brands and models have different ways of
>> adjusting tracking force. One common method is to look for a
>> counterweight on the tonearm at the opposite end from the cartridge
>> and try and adjust that to provide more or less pressure at the
>> cartridge end.
>>
>
> So what I'm doing, then, is changing the weight with which the
> cartridge enters the grooves? How would this affect sibilance?

You are changing the weight with which the cartrdige bears down on the
grooves. It is important that the cartridge is always exerting a positive
force on the groove, so that it will follow the undulations of the groove.
There are dynamic forces due to the motion of the stylus as it follows the
groove, that then to allow the stylus to pull away from the groove. If the
stylus does not accurately follow the undulations of the groove, then there
will be distortion. The sibilance you hear may be distortion that is
generated by the stylus not following the undulations of the groove.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Goodwin" > wrote in message

> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:03:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
> It seems to show up pretty much everywhere...not on all records all of
> the time, but on enough variety with enough frequency to bother me,
> esp. when I *bought* the damn thing to finally transfer stuff over.
>>
>> If this happens with recordings known to be in good shape, the
>> finger points more directly at the cartridge or how it is set up.
>> Can you increase the tracking force? Is there some chance that
>> despite all the supposed guarantees of proper adjustment inherent in
>> the P-mount system, the cartridge is still misaligned?

> I don't know. I don't have the instructions for the turntable...I
> never did. It's second-hand. I don't know what this "tracking force"
> is supposed to look like, or what I'm supposed to do with it.

Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.

>> If the problem is more prevalent at the beginning of the recording,
>> you might want to look at your anti-skating adjustment since the
>> skating force is largest for the outer grooves.

> Nah, it frequently happens in end-of-siders.

A bit of this is present in many vinyl playback systems that are working
well - it's an inherent problem with vinyl. I've listened to three of your
samples, and they are all have very severe sibilance, much worse than usual.

>> Sounds like mistracking. Adding stylus force may be a solution.
>> Perchance the stylus has picked up a big wad of dirt and needs to be
>> cleaned?

> This doesn't *look* like the case, but then again, I suppose "big"
> here is very relative.

Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.

> Have you listened to the MP3s? I could throw up a few more. Generally,
> the signal suddenly has a lot more clicks/pops when lots of
> high-frequency info is present.

That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.

>>> Could this problem be cartridge related?
>>
>> Maybe.
>>
>>> Is it fixable?
>>
>> Maybe. One possible fix might be another cartridge.

> Ugh.

>>> Might my records just be kinda trashed?:-(
>>
>> Probably not all of them, but possibly the ones you like to listen
>> to the most.
>
>
> Yeah.

Stylus force is often adjusted by means of a spring or a dial near the pivot
point of the tone arm, or by means of adjusting the position of the
counterweight. Does your turntable have any adjustments associated with its
counterweight? If you try to rotate it, does it rotate? If it rotates, does
it move along the length of the tone arm?

You can temporarily add tracking force by taping a small object to the top
of the cartridge. A dime weighs about 3 grams, the amount of weight you
might want to add would be no more than half of that.

There are such things as stylus force gauges - Shure makes one that sells
for about $20. Depending on the specs for the cartridge you want a tracking
force of 1.5-2.5 grams.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Produc
t_Code=SPSFGS


Here's some articles about setting up tone arms. Some of the instructions
don't apply because you have a P-mount tone arm and cartridge:

http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Opry/9588/systemsetup.html

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1984.pdf (starting around
page 30, second column)

[David Goodwin]

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.

Denon DP-7J.

>Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.

I don't see anything, in any case...
>
>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.

I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
errors?

>Stylus force is often adjusted by means of a spring or a dial near the pivot
>point of the tone arm, or by means of adjusting the position of the
>counterweight. Does your turntable have any adjustments associated with its
>counterweight? If you try to rotate it, does it rotate? If it rotates, does
>it move along the length of the tone arm?

I'll have to investigate this more thoroughly...obviously, I'm kinda
squeamish re. changing/adjusting things I'm not sure are supposed to
be changed/adjusted.




-D

[David Goodwin]

Last MP3 I'll bother y'all with:

http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/highfreq.mp3

Demonstrates how the signal suddenly gets *very* noisy during bouts of
high frequency information, and then immediately drops off.


I really should've just left this to the pros...:_( This is clearly
beyond the adjustophobe user.




-D

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>wrote:
>
>>Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.
>
>Denon DP-7J.
>
>>Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.
>
>I don't see anything, in any case...
>>
>>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>
>I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
>problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>errors?

Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.

Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably, only
be expected with vinyl.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

[dave weil]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:59:31 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.
>>
>>Denon DP-7J.
>>
>>>Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.
>>
>>I don't see anything, in any case...
>>>
>>>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>>>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>>
>>I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
>>problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>>it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>>errors?
>
>Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.
>
>Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably, only
>be expected with vinyl.

Since vinyl the only format with "grooves", I would expect this to be
a true statement. However, there's not much point to such a statement,
as stated.

[Arny Krueger]

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:59:31 GMT, (Stewart
> Pinkerton) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.

>>> Denon DP-7J.

I can't find any references to this turntable with google searching. What am
I missing?

>>>> Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.

>>> I don't see anything, in any case...

Good.

>>>> That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I
>>>> noticed that the problem seems to be far worse in the right
>>>> channel.

>>> I've noticed that too. Why *is* that?

It can be inherent in the media under some conditions, but it is also
indictative of excess friction in the arm, misadjusted anti-skating, and
too-low tracking force.

>>>My old stylus had a similar
>>> problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>>> it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>>> errors?

Could be, but see other related problems I just mentioned.

>> Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.

A possible explanation.

I wouldn't be too self-conscious about trying various adjustments to your
tone arm. That's one reason why vinyl was scrapped by 99+% of everybody - it
was a steady maintenance headache. Adjustments like these can get put out of
shape by shipping, for example.

>> Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably,
>> only be expected with vinyl.

> Since vinyl the only format with "grooves", I would expect this to be
> a true statement.

It's an absolute certainty that LPs have inherent problems with inner groove
distortion, but it's not clear that LPs are the only format with grooves.

http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,14571,00.asp

> However, there's not much point to such a statement, as stated.

Wow, you really ARE in denial about the technical failings of vinyl, aren't
you Weil?

LOL!

[David Goodwin]

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:37:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:


>I can't find any references to this turntable with google searching. What am
>I missing?
>
Pardon...it's a DP-7F, *not* 7J.

>It can be inherent in the media under some conditions, but it is also
>indictative of excess friction in the arm, misadjusted anti-skating, and
>too-low tracking force.

My old cartridge had a problem with raised noise levels in the right
channel...thing is, I didn't use the cartridge for long, so I don't
think I could've damaged any vinyl in the interim.

>
>I wouldn't be too self-conscious about trying various adjustments to your
>tone arm. That's one reason why vinyl was scrapped by 99+% of everybody - it
>was a steady maintenance headache. Adjustments like these can get put out of
>shape by shipping, for example.

Heh. Somewhat ironically, I'm spazzing about all of this to get stuff
*off* of vinyl...transferring lots of my old mono albums to CD, et
cetera. All of these problems are really putting a damper on the
process.




-D

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:48:23 -0500, dave weil >
wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:59:31 GMT, (Stewart
>Pinkerton) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >

>>>>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>>>>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>>>
>>>I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
>>>problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>>>it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>>>errors?
>>
>>Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.

And the tracking weight may also be set too low.

>>Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably, only
>>be expected with vinyl.
>
>Since vinyl the only format with "grooves", I would expect this to be
>a true statement. However, there's not much point to such a statement,
>as stated.

Certainly there is, if the original poster thinks that there's
something wrong with his turntable. In fact, he's just hearing a basic
defect of the medium.

BTW, vinyl is not the only medium with 'grooves', but it's a CAV
medium, whereas CD is CLV and hence has a constant data rate.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

[Clive Backham]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:04:23 GMT, David Goodwin >
wrote:

>My old cartridge had a problem with raised noise levels in the right
>channel...

As others have said, imbalance in distortion levels between channels
is usually due to incorrect anti-skating setting. Or possibly a
cartridge that is not perpendicular to the record surface.

>thing is, I didn't use the cartridge for long, so I don't
>think I could've damaged any vinyl in the interim.

Unfortunately this isn't so. Playing a vinyl record with a badly
mistracking turntable JUST ONCE can cause permanent damage.

I had a listen to your highfrequency MP3, and it sounds to me like one
of: (a) mistracking, (b) faithful playback of a record previously
damaged by mistracking, or (c) a record which just has pretty nasty
distortion pressed in.

You need to get your turntable properly aligned right now. Stop
playing records with it until you know it's correctly adjusted,
otherwise you are in danger of causing more damage. Once it is set up
properly, you can then hope that the distortion you have been hearing
is of type (a), and that you haven't caused too much damage.

If the distortion is of type (b) or (c), the bad news is that I don't
know of any way to successfully remove this type of distortion. The
only methods I've tried that had partial success are: (i) a savage low
pass filter to remove the high frequencies (where most mistracking
distortion has its major components) plus a lift in the midrange to
compensate; (ii) some audio restoration programs' decrackling can help
in some cases.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:56:00 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:48:23 -0500, dave weil >
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:59:31 GMT, (Stewart
>>Pinkerton) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>
>>>>>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>>>>>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>>>>
>>>>I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
>>>>problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>>>>it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>>>>errors?
>>>
>>>Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.
>
>And the tracking weight may also be set too low.
>
>>>Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably, only
>>>be expected with vinyl.
>>
>>Since vinyl the only format with "grooves", I would expect this to be
>>a true statement. However, there's not much point to such a statement,
>>as stated.
>
>Certainly there is, if the original poster thinks that there's
>something wrong with his turntable. In fact, he's just hearing a basic
>defect of the medium.

Not true at all. My turntable doesn't have audible inner groove
sibilance. And I'll bet that yours doesn't either.

>BTW, vinyl is not the only medium with 'grooves', but it's a CAV
>medium, whereas CD is CLV and hence has a constant data rate.

A series of pits isn't a groove. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[Thomas A]

David Goodwin > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:37:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>
> >I can't find any references to this turntable with google searching. What am
> >I missing?
> >
> Pardon...it's a DP-7F, *not* 7J.
>
> >It can be inherent in the media under some conditions, but it is also
> >indictative of excess friction in the arm, misadjusted anti-skating, and
> >too-low tracking force.
>
> My old cartridge had a problem with raised noise levels in the right
> channel...thing is, I didn't use the cartridge for long, so I don't
> think I could've damaged any vinyl in the interim.
>
> >
> >I wouldn't be too self-conscious about trying various adjustments to your
> >tone arm. That's one reason why vinyl was scrapped by 99+% of everybody - it
> >was a steady maintenance headache. Adjustments like these can get put out of
> >shape by shipping, for example.
>
> Heh. Somewhat ironically, I'm spazzing about all of this to get stuff
> *off* of vinyl...transferring lots of my old mono albums to CD, et
> cetera. All of these problems are really putting a damper on the
> process.
>

I looked at the waveform of the sibilant high frequency content. The
waveform signal is clipped on the bottom for the left channel and at
the top for the right channel. The right channel (inner groove) appear
most clipped. It can mean many things but try adjusting tracking
force and then antiskate as a first cure.

The Denon DP-7F appears to be a directdrive with an automatic arm. I
made a search of this TT at the vinyl forum at audioasylum and I did
not get a clearcut answer of how to set the tracking force. From a
picture of the table I saw on the net,

http://www.19art.net/music/lp/Turntable08.htm


I could not really see how to set the tracking force. One mail noted
that there were three different weights supplied with the TT, not
mounted. Perhaps it is better to seek advice at the audioasylum of how
to set the tracking force of your specific TT.


>
>
>
> -D

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:55:27 -0500, dave weil >
wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:56:00 GMT, (Stewart
>Pinkerton) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:48:23 -0500, dave weil >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:59:31 GMT, (Stewart
>>>Pinkerton) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:22:38 GMT, David Goodwin >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>
>>>>>>That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed that
>>>>>>the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
>>>>>problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
>>>>>it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
>>>>>errors?
>>>>
>>>>Sounds like the anti-skating force is badly wrong.
>>
>>And the tracking weight may also be set too low.
>>
>>>>Excessive treble distortion at the inner grooves is, regrettably, only
>>>>be expected with vinyl.
>>>
>>>Since vinyl the only format with "grooves", I would expect this to be
>>>a true statement. However, there's not much point to such a statement,
>>>as stated.
>>
>>Certainly there is, if the original poster thinks that there's
>>something wrong with his turntable. In fact, he's just hearing a basic
>>defect of the medium.
>
>Not true at all. My turntable doesn't have audible inner groove
>sibilance. And I'll bet that yours doesn't either.

Of course yours does, you're just in denial.

>>BTW, vinyl is not the only medium with 'grooves', but it's a CAV
>>medium, whereas CD is CLV and hence has a constant data rate.
>
>A series of pits isn't a groove. Look it up if you don't believe me.

The basic fact remains that CLV media have constant data rates, and
CAV media like LPs don't. The Edison cylinder at least got *that*
right! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

[dave weil]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:04:24 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

>>Not true at all. My turntable doesn't have audible inner groove
>>sibilance. And I'll bet that yours doesn't either.
>
>Of course yours does, you're just in denial.

Nope. You're wrong. Sorry that your megabucks turntable is worse in
this regard.

>>>BTW, vinyl is not the only medium with 'grooves', but it's a CAV
>>>medium, whereas CD is CLV and hence has a constant data rate.
>>
>>A series of pits isn't a groove. Look it up if you don't believe me.
>
>The basic fact remains that CLV media have constant data rates, and
>CAV media like LPs don't. The Edison cylinder at least got *that*
>right! :-)

No, the basic fact remains that you misused a "technical term". How
every unengineerlike.

Now go crawl back in your hole.

(PS, this last statement will certainly insure your continued presense
here).

[Arny Krueger]

"David Goodwin" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:30:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>> Have I missed something? I can't find out what turntable you have.
>
> Denon DP-7J.
>
>> Big could actually be any. The stylus should be perfectly clean.
>
> I don't see anything, in any case...
>>
>> That would be mistracking. When I listened to your samples I noticed
>> that the problem seems to be far worse in the right channel.
>
> I've noticed that too. Why *is* that? My old stylus had a similar
> problem (its right channel was distorted) and that's why I replaced
> it...could part of this have carried over thanks to tracking weight
> errors?

>> Stylus force is often adjusted by means of a spring or a dial near
>> the pivot point of the tone arm, or by means of adjusting the
>> position of the counterweight. Does your turntable have any
>> adjustments associated with its counterweight? If you try to rotate
>> it, does it rotate? If it rotates, does it move along the length of
>> the tone arm?
>
> I'll have to investigate this more thoroughly...obviously, I'm kinda
> squeamish re. changing/adjusting things I'm not sure are supposed to
> be changed/adjusted.

Things like tracking force and anti-skating are usually designed to be
changed.