bent cantilever...

[Garrt]

looking from the front of my cartridge the cantilever bends to the
right. this is the same for the last 3 needles I've had. perhaps my
anti-skating is too low or too high?

[ScottW]

Garrt wrote:
> looking from the front of my cartridge the cantilever bends to the
> right.

as viewed from the front?

> this is the same for the last 3 needles I've had. perhaps my
> anti-skating is too low or too high?


It would have to be way off to bend a cantilever. Is the TT auto..
semi-auto or manual?

My guess... if auto... something is wrong with the mechanism...
perhaps not releasing the arm before contacting the lead in grooves.

ScottW

[tubeguy]

Ya think? Too high.

You should think about CDs, my friend. ;-)

Cheers!

"Garrt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> looking from the front of my cartridge the cantilever bends to the
> right. this is the same for the last 3 needles I've had. perhaps my
> anti-skating is too low or too high?
>

[Garrt]

> as viewed from the front?

as in standing in front of it.


> It would have to be way off to bend a cantilever. Is the TT auto..
> semi-auto or manual?

it's a DUAL semi-automatic - when it get's to the end it lifts the
needle and returns the arm - the rest is manual. well, actually when
it gets to the end it doesn't lift the arm but still attempts to return
the arm...you never seen anyone move so fast! thinking about it maybe
the cart is mal-aligned?


> You should think about CDs, my friend. ;-)

I've got those too - nasty little things - but at least it doesn't take
2 hours to stick em on an iPod!

[ScottW]

Garrt wrote:
> > as viewed from the front?
>
> as in standing in front of it.
>
>
> > It would have to be way off to bend a cantilever. Is the TT auto..
> > semi-auto or manual?
>
> it's a DUAL semi-automatic - when it get's to the end it lifts the
> needle and returns the arm - the rest is manual. well, actually when
> it gets to the end it doesn't lift the arm but still attempts to return
> the arm...you never seen anyone move so fast!

That sounds like a problem... I had a manual AR XA and I can't imagine
trying to do the end of play pickup rapidly without ever causing a
problem.

Does it have a working cueing device? If not... that might be a
worthwhile addition.

> thinking about it maybe
> the cart is mal-aligned?

I'm assuming you can tell if the cantilever is deviated from the cart
body. They should be in the same line.

ScottW

[Trevor Wilson]

"Garrt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> looking from the front of my cartridge the cantilever bends to the
> right. this is the same for the last 3 needles I've had. perhaps my
> anti-skating is too low or too high?

**Your description is far too vague. Is the cantilever actually bent, or is
it off to one side? Is it OK when off the record? How old is your
turntable?Anti-skating should not affect the stylus significantly.

I'm guessing your arm bearing are buggered.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Trevor Wilson]

"Garrt" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> as viewed from the front?
>
> as in standing in front of it.
>
>
>> It would have to be way off to bend a cantilever. Is the TT auto..
>> semi-auto or manual?
>
> it's a DUAL semi-automatic - when it get's to the end it lifts the
> needle and returns the arm - the rest is manual. well, actually when
> it gets to the end it doesn't lift the arm but still attempts to return
> the arm...you never seen anyone move so fast! thinking about it maybe
> the cart is mal-aligned?

**NO! The auto lifter is shot. Sounds like you have a perfect match for
those crappy speakers. A crappy turntable as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Garrt]

the cantilever bends (with a nice exponential curve) to the right as
you look the cartridge in the face. so if the cart is mal-aligned and
points more towards the centre of the record perhaps the cantilever is
getting pushed out to the right? sounds likely to me.

> **NO! The auto lifter is shot. Sounds like you have a perfect match for
> those crappy speakers. A crappy turntable as well.

oh really? I thought it was supposed to that Trevor! you wouldn't let
it go would you! you are right. I took the thing apart once and
somehow managed to disengage the auto arm return mech - but then it
came alive again. time for a new deck - and just to please you Trev, i
might go for a 1210. my GramAmp pre sounds nice to me - sometimes I do
get good stuff.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Garrt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> the cantilever bends (with a nice exponential curve) to the right as
> you look the cartridge in the face.

**OK, so the cantilever is NOT bent. It BENDS. A subtle, but VERY important
distinction. I note you have still not answered the res tof my questions,
listed elsewhere in this thread. Do you want help?

so if the cart is mal-aligned and
> points more towards the centre of the record perhaps the cantilever is
> getting pushed out to the right? sounds likely to me.

**Not to me. Sounds like the arm bearings are shot and/or the auto lifter is
buggered. Not unusual in old turntables. It IS an old turntable, right?

>
>> **NO! The auto lifter is shot. Sounds like you have a perfect match for
>> those crappy speakers. A crappy turntable as well.
>
> oh really?

**Yes, really.

I thought it was supposed to that Trevor! you wouldn't let
> it go would you! you are right. I took the thing apart once and
> somehow managed to disengage the auto arm return mech - but then it
> came alive again. time for a new deck - and just to please you Trev, i
> might go for a 1210. my GramAmp pre sounds nice to me - sometimes I do
> get good stuff.

**Wonders never cease.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Garrt]

>**Your description is far too vague. Is the cantilever actually bent, or is
> it off to one side? Is it OK when off the record? How old is your
> turntable?Anti-skating should not affect the stylus significantly.

i think it's from '82 - that number is engraved on the platter
somewhere. it's a DUAL CS 617Q. the cantilever is bendy whether it's
in the groove or not. the deck is level front/back left/right.
there is a bit of movement in the tone arm if I gently move it front to
back and if I try to twist it - I hear that's not a good sign. I was
thinking about re-wiring the tone arm. there's a huge ground buzz too.
it's not very good really! I inherited it.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Garrt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >**Your description is far too vague. Is the cantilever actually bent, or
> >is
>> it off to one side? Is it OK when off the record? How old is your
>> turntable?Anti-skating should not affect the stylus significantly.
>
> i think it's from '82 - that number is engraved on the platter
> somewhere. it's a DUAL CS 617Q.


**Not a bad TT. Not one of my favourites, due to the lack of decent
suspension, but the arm is nice. Worth spending a few Squid on, IMO.

the cantilever is bendy whether it's
> in the groove or not.

**Huh? Is it straight, when not in the groove?

the deck is level front/back left/right.
> there is a bit of movement in the tone arm if I gently move it front to
> back and if I try to twist it - I hear that's not a good sign.

**NO bearing system is perfect. Fortunately, the Dual ones are adjustable. I
suggest you do not attempt to do this particular task, however.

I was
> thinking about re-wiring the tone arm.


**You've re-wired a tone arm before?

there's a huge ground buzz too.
> it's not very good really!

**Not at all. Still worth spending a few Squid on the thing, IMO.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Garrt]

> **Huh? Is it straight, when not in the groove?
no, it's quite a longish cantilever. i think the cart is an audio
technica - it has an audio tech removable stylus - about 30-40 EUR for
the cart.

> **You've re-wired a tone arm before?
nah, I was thinking of going straight from the cart thru the arm and
out to a pair of phono plugs but i'm not sure if that's the right way?

> there's a huge ground buzz too.
> > it's not very good really!
>
> **Not at all. Still worth spending a few Squid on the thing, IMO.

only the deck suffers the buzz - it picks it up from the dimmer switch,
central heating and the fridge! on a graphic analyzer it starts at
approx. 50Hz and goes right up the spectrum in multiples - like a
harmonic series. could it be the cart. i may get one of the lower
priced ortofon MM carts - unless you know of anything else for that arm?

[Trevor Wilson]

"Garrt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> **Huh? Is it straight, when not in the groove?
> no, it's quite a longish cantilever.

**So, the cantilever is bent, even when out of the groove? Bent, or offset
from centre? BIG difference.

i think the cart is an audio
> technica - it has an audio tech removable stylus - about 30-40 EUR for
> the cart.
>
>> **You've re-wired a tone arm before?
> nah, I was thinking of going straight from the cart thru the arm and
> out to a pair of phono plugs but i'm not sure if that's the right way?

**If you've never rewired an arm before, I advise you not to do it.

>
>> there's a huge ground buzz too.
>> > it's not very good really!
>>
>> **Not at all. Still worth spending a few Squid on the thing, IMO.
>
> only the deck suffers the buzz - it picks it up from the dimmer switch,
> central heating and the fridge! on a graphic analyzer it starts at
> approx. 50Hz and goes right up the spectrum in multiples - like a
> harmonic series. could it be the cart. i may get one of the lower
> priced ortofon MM carts - unless you know of anything else for that arm?

**Any MM will work. The noise appears to be external, so you need to address
that issue at the source. rewiring tone arms, swapping carts, etc, will
probably not help.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Garrt]

> **So, the cantilever is bent, even when out of the groove? Bent, or offset
> from centre? BIG difference.

we seem to be stuck in an infitie loop? OK, I remove the removable
stylus and place it in the palm of my hand stylus side up and pointing
away from me. it bends to the right. I guess that's what you meant by
offset? when it was new it was perfectly centered and straight.

[ScottW]

Garrt wrote:
> > **So, the cantilever is bent, even when out of the groove? Bent, or offset
> > from centre? BIG difference.
>
> we seem to be stuck in an infitie loop? OK, I remove the removable
> stylus and place it in the palm of my hand stylus side up and pointing
> away from me. it bends to the right. I guess that's what you meant by
> offset? when it was new it was perfectly centered and straight.

I think you're in the loop. You keep replacing styli and they keep
getting bent.

Time to try something different, don't you think?

ScottW

[Garrt]

> I think you're in the loop. You keep replacing styli and they keep
> getting bent.


we seem to be stuck in an infitie loop? OK, I remove the removable
stylus and place it in the palm of my hand stylus side up and pointing
away from me. it bends to the right. I guess that's what you meant
by
offset? when it was new it was perfectly centered and straight.

[Sander deWaal]

"Garrt" > said:

>> I think you're in the loop. You keep replacing styli and they keep
>> getting bent.


>we seem to be stuck in an infitie loop? OK, I remove the removable
>stylus and place it in the palm of my hand stylus side up and pointing
>away from me. it bends to the right. I guess that's what you meant
>by
>offset? when it was new it was perfectly centered and straight.


Which means there's something wrong with your arm or its adjustment.
Check the arm bearings and the anti skating mechanism, if present.

Also, has your turntable some kind of automatic shut-off system that
works mechanically (e.g. by moving some lever at the end of a record)?

There must be a reason why all your styli are bent after some time.
Until you've found and corrected that problem, it's unwise to upgrade
anything else like wiring.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Garrt]

> There must be a reason why all your styli are bent after some time.
> Until you've found and corrected that problem, it's unwise to upgrade
> anything else like wiring.

I still think the cart wasn't aligned properly forcing the cantilever
out to one side. hasn't got any worse since I re-aligned anyway.