$300 for 'Wire'

[Gary A. Edelstein]

The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
this.

I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:

Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html

Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657

Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html

Sony Progressive Combo Player
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm

They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.

The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.

I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
basically only carried Monster.

Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.

So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
stepmother don't know what to buy.

If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:

2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761

3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563

The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
sort of universal remote.

Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?

TIA, Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[Jeff Rife]

Gary A. Edelstein ) wrote in alt.home-theater.misc:
> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops?

Only in ones that want to get money for nothing. For a $100 retail Monster
product, the store pays around $50. This is fine for places like Best Buy
where the big items (plasma, DVD player) might not be marked up as much
as a small store, but when you get 50% markup on the big items (instead of
30%), the 100% markup on the cables is a lot harder to swallow.

--
Jeff Rife | Coach: What's doing, Norm?
|
| Norm: Well, science is seeking a cure for thirst.
| I happen to be the guinea pig.

[[email protected]]

Gary A. Edelstein wrote:
> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
> this.
>
> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>
> Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
> http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
>
> Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
> http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
>
> Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
> http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
>
> Sony Progressive Combo Player
> http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
> or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
>
> They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
>
> The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
> paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
> that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
> standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
> their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
>
> I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
> basically only carried Monster.
>
> Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
> trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
>
> So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
> the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
> out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
> didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
> stepmother don't know what to buy.
>
> If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
> equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
>
> 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
>
> 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
>
> The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
> and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
> wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
> connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
> sort of universal remote.
>
>
> Comments?
>
>
When you can save money by paying retail at RS versus what the HE shop
is asking, you know you've been, er...."monsterized". :-( (For example,
you can get 100' of 14AWG speaker wire for far less than the $44 at RS.
And, yes, I know the Monster crap is even more.)
>
>
>Is this standard practice in high end shops?
>
>
IME, yes, it's all too common. They make far more on the "accessories"
than on the electronics. Did they pitch an extended warranty, too?
>
>
>Should it be?
>
>
IMO, no.
>
>
> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?
>
At this juncture, the only suggestion is to avoid that shop.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Gary A. Edelstein wrote:
> > The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
> > this.
> >
> > I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
> > a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
> > picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
> >
> > Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
> > http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
> >
> > Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
> > http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
> >
> > Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
> > http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
> >
> > Sony Progressive Combo Player
> > http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
> > or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
> >
> > They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
> >
> > The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
> > paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
> > that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
> > standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
> > their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
> >
> > I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
> > basically only carried Monster.
> >
> > Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
> > trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
> >
> > So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
> > the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
> > out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
> > didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
> > stepmother don't know what to buy.
> >
> > If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
> > equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
> >
> > 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
> > http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
> >
> > 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
> > http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
> >
> > The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
> > and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
> > wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
> > connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
> > sort of universal remote.
> >
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> >
> When you can save money by paying retail at RS versus what the HE shop
> is asking, you know you've been, er...."monsterized". :-( (For example,
> you can get 100' of 14AWG speaker wire for far less than the $44 at RS.
> And, yes, I know the Monster crap is even more.)
> >
> >
> >Is this standard practice in high end shops?
> >
> >
> IME, yes, it's all too common.


Really? How many shops can you name that only carry Monster cable?



They make far more on the "accessories"
> than on the electronics. Did they pitch an extended warranty, too?



If that is the case then they ain't makin much given the fact that the
total for the cable was 300 bucks. Don't know how they can cover their
overhead if most of their profit on this sale was well under 300 bucks.



> >
> >
> >Should it be?
> >
> >
> IMO, no.



That is up to the market. If a shop only carries one brand on cable thy
are likely to loose sales.





> >
> >
> > Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?
> >
> At this juncture, the only suggestion is to avoid that shop.



Or buy your own cable before they deliver and install the system.




Scott Wheeler

[Gary A. Edelstein]

On 1 Jun 2005 12:50:30 -0700, wrote:

>Did they pitch an extended warranty, too?
>
I had forgotten that - yes they did, but not very hard. I should say
that my father did accept my recommendation not to get the insurance
policy they pitched. And all the components had at least 1 year parts
and labor warranties.

Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[Gary A. Edelstein]

On 1 Jun 2005 13:27:04 -0700, wrote:

>That is up to the market. If a shop only carries one brand on cable thy
>are likely to loose sales.
>
I'll clarify that I didn't have time to look real closely at
everything they had for wire and connectors. I believe most, if not
all the connectors I saw were Monster. The only component cables I
saw were Monster. But it is possible they carried other brands.

Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[ScottW]

Gary A. Edelstein wrote:
> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
> this.
>
> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>
> Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
> http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
>
> Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
> http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
>
> Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
> http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
>
> Sony Progressive Combo Player
> http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
> or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
>
> They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
>
> The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
> paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
> that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
> standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
> their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
>
> I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
> basically only carried Monster.
>
> Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
> trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
>
> So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
> the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
> out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
> didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
> stepmother don't know what to buy.
>
> If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
> equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
>
> 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
>
> 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
>
> The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
> and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
> wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
> connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
> sort of universal remote.
>
> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?

Your cable company will take care of all your cable connectors on
install. They replaced all the connectors on my cable out of wall.
As for the rest of it... I find Home Depot to be the best local source
for interconnects, component and composite video, S-Video, digital
coax, all sorts of computer cables. Only thing they lack is fiber
optic which I found on-line for $14 where compusa and radio shack
wanted $80.
My local RS only carries their gold line now and its not worth it IMO.
On the other hand, the cables that come with most components (DVD etc)
are total crap.

ScottW

[Z Man]

[comments bottom posted]

"Gary A. Edelstein" > wrote in message
...
> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
> this.
>
> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>
> Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
> http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
>
> Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
> http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
>
> Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
> http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
>
> Sony Progressive Combo Player
> http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
> or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
>
> They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
>
> The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
> paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
> that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
> standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
> their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
>
> I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
> basically only carried Monster.
>
> Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
> trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
>
> So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
> the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
> out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
> didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
> stepmother don't know what to buy.
>
> If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
> equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
>
> 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
>
> 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
>
> The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
> and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
> wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
> connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
> sort of universal remote.
>
> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?

There are two principal means of assembling a home theatre.

(1) Go to a shop that installs home theatres and have them come in and do
the job top to bottom, using their best judgment as to how things should be
assembled. That doesn't mean you give them a blank check, but you do need to
leave some judgment calls to them. You will likely end up with a very nicely
done home theatre that will work well, commensurate with the amount you
expended, and if something doesn't work (not likely) they will fix it. The
job will also be neat and efficient, with wires installed in the walls,
projectors and equipment correctly mounted, and your components efficiently
integrated. The company will take responsibility for the overall job and
your overall satisfaction. You will NOT get the lowest price, but you will
most likely get the best job, executed by folks that do this for living and
thusly have to do things right or they will not be in business long.

(2) Make the rounds of Best Buy, Circuit City, Radio Shack, etc. Buy
individual components, carefully balancing quality vs. price. Bring
everything home and assemble your system with your own two hands. You will
get the lowest possible price, and do the most work yourself. You will
likely get a fine system, but you will spend a lot of time and effort, and
things may not be constructed optimally. You will find that it is not all
that easy to figure out what to do by yourself. You will have to absorb the
entire learning curve to perform just one installation, as opposed to Method
#1 which is done by folks that do it all the time and can wire the back of
my Denon 5800 with their eyes closed.

Those of us that read the newsgroups, myself included, almost universally
utilize Method #2. You will not fine many defenders of Method #1 because
those guys don't need to post in this venue because they pay professionals
to do the job, and get it right the first time.

I greatly aspire to join the Method #1 group. Rather than rolling up my
sleeves and hacking through it, I would much prefer to sit down with a
professional for couple of ours to plan the job, then go out for a day and
come home to a finely tuned home theatre. I long to pay extra and not be
bothered beyond turning on my Infocus Screenplay 777 and enjoying a system
well planned and assembled by someone else, rather than using my self
assembled system complete with a five year old bulky rear projection model.

This type of analysis is not limited to home theatre issues. How many people
go out and purchase a copy of Turbo Tax and knock out their own tax return?
Question: is it better to absorb the learning curve to do one tax return, or
pay extra to hire a professional who does three or four hundred tax returns
per year? Doubtless, you WILL save money doing it yourself, but does that
make it necessarily the better method? Again, I aspire to be the guy that
hires a professional and pays the freight.

There you have it, in a big nutshell. Both methods work, but you have pros
and cons and need to make a choice. Whichever way you go will probably be
the right choice, for you.

[Gary A. Edelstein]

In article . com>,
says...
>
> Your cable company will take care of all your cable connectors on
>install. They replaced all the connectors on my cable out of wall.
>
This is Time Warner and they can give you the box to install yourself, but
perhaps they can install it as well. The shop salesman said to pick up the box
and the shop installer will put it in (at $70 an hr).

> As for the rest of it... I find Home Depot to be the best local source
>for interconnects, component and composite video, S-Video, digital
>coax, all sorts of computer cables. Only thing they lack is fiber
>optic which I found on-line for $14 where compusa and radio shack
>wanted $80.
>
You mean toslink optical cables?

> My local RS only carries their gold line now and its not worth it IMO.
>On the other hand, the cables that come with most components (DVD etc)
>are total crap.
>
Thanks for the tip. I'll check out Home Depot on this stuff too.

Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(Remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[Slalomguy]

method 2 is educational
you would not have been able to write your post if you were a 1 man
anyways what you going to do with all the extra time you save
sit in front of you HT and get fat and ugly?

"Z Man" > wrote in message
...
> [comments bottom posted]
>
> "Gary A. Edelstein" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
>> this.
>>
>> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
>> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
>> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>>
>> Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
>> http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
>>
>> Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
>> http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
>>
>> Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
>> http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
>>
>> Sony Progressive Combo Player
>> http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
>> or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
>>
>> They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
>>
>> The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
>> paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
>> that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
>> standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
>> their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
>>
>> I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
>> basically only carried Monster.
>>
>> Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
>> trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
>>
>> So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
>> the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
>> out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
>> didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
>> stepmother don't know what to buy.
>>
>> If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
>> equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
>>
>> 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
>> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
>>
>> 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
>> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
>>
>> The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
>> and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
>> wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
>> connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
>> sort of universal remote.
>>
>> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
>> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?
>
> There are two principal means of assembling a home theatre.
>
> (1) Go to a shop that installs home theatres and have them come in and do
> the job top to bottom, using their best judgment as to how things should
> be assembled. That doesn't mean you give them a blank check, but you do
> need to leave some judgment calls to them. You will likely end up with a
> very nicely done home theatre that will work well, commensurate with the
> amount you expended, and if something doesn't work (not likely) they will
> fix it. The job will also be neat and efficient, with wires installed in
> the walls, projectors and equipment correctly mounted, and your components
> efficiently integrated. The company will take responsibility for the
> overall job and your overall satisfaction. You will NOT get the lowest
> price, but you will most likely get the best job, executed by folks that
> do this for living and thusly have to do things right or they will not be
> in business long.
>
> (2) Make the rounds of Best Buy, Circuit City, Radio Shack, etc. Buy
> individual components, carefully balancing quality vs. price. Bring
> everything home and assemble your system with your own two hands. You will
> get the lowest possible price, and do the most work yourself. You will
> likely get a fine system, but you will spend a lot of time and effort, and
> things may not be constructed optimally. You will find that it is not all
> that easy to figure out what to do by yourself. You will have to absorb
> the entire learning curve to perform just one installation, as opposed to
> Method #1 which is done by folks that do it all the time and can wire the
> back of my Denon 5800 with their eyes closed.
>
> Those of us that read the newsgroups, myself included, almost universally
> utilize Method #2. You will not fine many defenders of Method #1 because
> those guys don't need to post in this venue because they pay professionals
> to do the job, and get it right the first time.
>
> I greatly aspire to join the Method #1 group. Rather than rolling up my
> sleeves and hacking through it, I would much prefer to sit down with a
> professional for couple of ours to plan the job, then go out for a day and
> come home to a finely tuned home theatre. I long to pay extra and not be
> bothered beyond turning on my Infocus Screenplay 777 and enjoying a system
> well planned and assembled by someone else, rather than using my self
> assembled system complete with a five year old bulky rear projection
> model.
>
> This type of analysis is not limited to home theatre issues. How many
> people go out and purchase a copy of Turbo Tax and knock out their own tax
> return? Question: is it better to absorb the learning curve to do one tax
> return, or pay extra to hire a professional who does three or four hundred
> tax returns per year? Doubtless, you WILL save money doing it yourself,
> but does that make it necessarily the better method? Again, I aspire to be
> the guy that hires a professional and pays the freight.
>
> There you have it, in a big nutshell. Both methods work, but you have pros
> and cons and need to make a choice. Whichever way you go will probably be
> the right choice, for you.
>
>
>

[dave weil]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:39:47 -0400, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

>[comments bottom posted]
>
>"Gary A. Edelstein" > wrote in message
...
>> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
>> this.
>>
>> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
>> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
>> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>>
>> Sony 37" Plasma HDTV
>> http://www.plasmadepot.com/sony_plasma_tv/kde37xs955.html
>>
>> Yamaha A/V Digital Receiver
>> http://www.avperfection.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=657
>>
>> Jamo 5.1 Speakers (and Stands)
>> http://sales.concert-systems.com/sales/JAM-A305PDD.html
>>
>> Sony Progressive Combo Player
>> http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_VHSVCR&ProductSKU=SLVD560P&INT=sstyle-audio_DVD-catpfeature-SLVD560P
>> or http://tinyurl.com/cvupm
>>
>> They will be getting the local cable co. HDTV DVR box as well.
>>
>> The shop will do the install at $70/hr. When the final sales
>> paperwork was shown to me, they had added $300 for 'wire'. I said
>> that was awfully high and asked what it included. They said it was
>> standard for their installs to use all Monster cables and that was
>> their estimate for the component connects and speaker wire.
>>
>> I took a quick look at their connectors display and sure enough, they
>> basically only carried Monster.
>>
>> Despite my recommendation against accepting this, my father said he
>> trusted the shop's sales person and would accept the deal as written.
>>
>> So, in this instance, it appeared their only choices were to accept
>> the shop's way of doing it or get their own connectors. Since I live
>> out of town, I couldn't go shopping for the connectors myself (I
>> didn't have time that day to do it either) and my father and
>> stepmother don't know what to buy.
>>
>> If I had the time to go to Radio Shack, we could have bought something
>> equivalent (IMHO) for a lot less:
>>
>> 2 ea. - 50' 14 Gage Speaker Wire - $44
>> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F010%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=278%2D2761
>>
>> 3 ea. - High Quality 6' Component Cables - $90
>> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D1563
>>
>> The combo player probably comes with a A/V cable with composite vid
>> and L/R phono audio plugs for the VCR portion. Some 75 ohm cable TV
>> wire connectors might be needed too, so add another $20-$30 for misc
>> connectors, if needed. Perhaps put the difference saved towards some
>> sort of universal remote.
>>
>> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
>> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?
>
>There are two principal means of assembling a home theatre.
>
>(1) Go to a shop that installs home theatres and have them come in and do
>the job top to bottom, using their best judgment as to how things should be
>assembled. That doesn't mean you give them a blank check, but you do need to
>leave some judgment calls to them. You will likely end up with a very nicely
>done home theatre that will work well, commensurate with the amount you
>expended, and if something doesn't work (not likely) they will fix it. The
>job will also be neat and efficient, with wires installed in the walls,
>projectors and equipment correctly mounted, and your components efficiently
>integrated. The company will take responsibility for the overall job and
>your overall satisfaction. You will NOT get the lowest price, but you will
>most likely get the best job, executed by folks that do this for living and
>thusly have to do things right or they will not be in business long.
>
>(2) Make the rounds of Best Buy, Circuit City, Radio Shack, etc. Buy
>individual components, carefully balancing quality vs. price. Bring
>everything home and assemble your system with your own two hands. You will
>get the lowest possible price, and do the most work yourself. You will
>likely get a fine system, but you will spend a lot of time and effort, and
>things may not be constructed optimally. You will find that it is not all
>that easy to figure out what to do by yourself. You will have to absorb the
>entire learning curve to perform just one installation, as opposed to Method
>#1 which is done by folks that do it all the time and can wire the back of
>my Denon 5800 with their eyes closed.
>
>Those of us that read the newsgroups, myself included, almost universally
>utilize Method #2. You will not fine many defenders of Method #1 because
>those guys don't need to post in this venue because they pay professionals
>to do the job, and get it right the first time.
>
>I greatly aspire to join the Method #1 group. Rather than rolling up my
>sleeves and hacking through it, I would much prefer to sit down with a
>professional for couple of ours to plan the job, then go out for a day and
>come home to a finely tuned home theatre. I long to pay extra and not be
>bothered beyond turning on my Infocus Screenplay 777 and enjoying a system
>well planned and assembled by someone else, rather than using my self
>assembled system complete with a five year old bulky rear projection model.
>
>This type of analysis is not limited to home theatre issues. How many people
>go out and purchase a copy of Turbo Tax and knock out their own tax return?
>Question: is it better to absorb the learning curve to do one tax return, or
>pay extra to hire a professional who does three or four hundred tax returns
>per year? Doubtless, you WILL save money doing it yourself, but does that
>make it necessarily the better method? Again, I aspire to be the guy that
>hires a professional and pays the freight.
>
>There you have it, in a big nutshell. Both methods work, but you have pros
>and cons and need to make a choice. Whichever way you go will probably be
>the right choice, for you.

Good points. Another point would be to wonder if it's really a big
deal to pay an extra $150 for all of the wiring needed for a
commercial home theatre installation. It's not like they were using
$100 a foot speaker wire or megabucks interconnects. That's another
small profit center for them and without that, the per hour fee would
likely be $100 an hour. It's pretty common to see that sort of thing
in a lot of businesses. For instance, most commercial auto mechanics
require that you buy your parts from them. Part of it is due to
liability issues, but part of it is that it's another source of profit
for them.

If your dad wasn't all that disturbed by it, I don't see why *you*
should be. After all, you weren't available to install it for him,
which would have saved him a lot more than $150. Besides, maybe that
$150 was cheaper than the "time" that you didn't have to do the
shopping at Radio Shack.

[ScottW]

Gary A. Edelstein wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> >
> > Your cable company will take care of all your cable connectors on
> >install. They replaced all the connectors on my cable out of wall.
> >
> This is Time Warner and they can give you the box to install yourself, but
> perhaps they can install it as well. The shop salesman said to pick up the box
> and the shop installer will put it in (at $70 an hr).

They way they're pushing digital.... I don't think the cable
companies are charging for installs.

>
> > As for the rest of it... I find Home Depot to be the best local source
> >for interconnects, component and composite video, S-Video, digital
> >coax, all sorts of computer cables. Only thing they lack is fiber
> >optic which I found on-line for $14 where compusa and radio shack
> >wanted $80.
> >
> You mean toslink optical cables?

Yes, the cable box has a coax digital and optical digital out. My DVD
has same.
My receiver has only 1 digital coax and 1 optical so I had to go
on-line for an optical.. can't recall who I used but the cable was fine
and they had quite a selection of lengths, I needed a long one. Some
folks have a real problem with ground loops hooking audio onto cable
boxes or TVs so using an optical link to the box is a good solution. I
wish Cox would enable the firewire port on the damn thing.

ScottW

[Robert Morein]

"Gary A. Edelstein" > wrote in message
...
> The recent thread about Monster cable alternatives prompted me to post
> this.
>
> I was helping my father and stepmother with a home theater purchase at
> a Milwaukee, WI high end shop this last weekend. Here's what they
> picked out for a fairly small (~13'x13') den:
>
[snip]
> Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?
> Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now?
>
It must be very frustrating. It could have been a marvelous bonding
experience, while instead, he chose to disregard your knowledgeable
judgment.

[Gary A. Edelstein]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:32:42 -0500, dave weil >
wrote:

>If your dad wasn't all that disturbed by it, I don't see why *you*
>should be.
>
Because, given the nature of the system he chose (which is why I
posted the details), it seemed like too much money for that portion
and would not provide any real benefit for the added cost. If this
was, say, a $15K or more installation, I would say that $300 for
interconnects and wire wasn't worth quibbling about. The amount of
money being spent on all the other components was considered during
the selection process, but this item, which is fairly significant, was
sort of tacked on as an afterthought without any real consideration
during the selection process. I guess one real lesson for me is I
should have had the wire and interconnects included in the selection
process up front before the paperwork was done.

>After all, you weren't available to install it for him,
>which would have saved him a lot more than $150.
>
True, and this is one of the reasons I recommended a local high end
shop that would do all the work. The shop was the closest to them and
convenient. That is worth something too.

Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[dave weil]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:56:46 -0500, Gary A. Edelstein
> wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:32:42 -0500, dave weil >
>wrote:
>
>>If your dad wasn't all that disturbed by it, I don't see why *you*
>>should be.
>>
>Because, given the nature of the system he chose (which is why I
>posted the details), it seemed like too much money for that portion
>and would not provide any real benefit for the added cost. If this
>was, say, a $15K or more installation, I would say that $300 for
>interconnects and wire wasn't worth quibbling about.

Well, you're actually quibbling about $150, not $300. Please remember
that. Still, that sort of thing is part of the profit margin that they
expect to make. It's not like they're gouging or anything.

>The amount of
>money being spent on all the other components was considered during
>the selection process, but this item, which is fairly significant, was
>sort of tacked on as an afterthought without any real consideration
>during the selection process. I guess one real lesson for me is I
>should have had the wire and interconnects included in the selection
>process up front before the paperwork was done.
>
>>After all, you weren't available to install it for him,
>>which would have saved him a lot more than $150.
>>
>True, and this is one of the reasons I recommended a local high end
>shop that would do all the work. The shop was the closest to them and
>convenient. That is worth something too.

Well then, you should take what they decide to use for their
instillation, within reason of course. As I said, it's not like they
were charging you $300 for a meter of interconnect or anything.

[Z Man]

"Slalomguy" > wrote in message
...
> method 2 is educational
> you would not have been able to write your post if you were a 1 man
> anyways what you going to do with all the extra time you save
> sit in front of you HT and get fat and ugly?

I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
through a $30k projector. Clear?

[Schizoid Man]

Z Man wrote:
> "Slalomguy" > wrote in message

> ...
>
>>method 2 is educational
>>you would not have been able to write your post if you were a 1 man
>>anyways what you going to do with all the extra time you save
>>sit in front of you HT and get fat and ugly?
>
> I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
> through a $30k projector. Clear?

Perhaps if you go to the gym instead of sitting on your ass and watching
TV through a $30,000 projector, you could be ugly but thin?

[Slalomguy]

gotcha,I can relate
But look at what it did to Elvis
Not that easy huh?

"Z Man" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Slalomguy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> method 2 is educational
>> you would not have been able to write your post if you were a 1 man
>> anyways what you going to do with all the extra time you save
>> sit in front of you HT and get fat and ugly?
>
> I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
> through a $30k projector. Clear?
>

[Clyde Slick]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
>Z Man wrote:

>>
>> I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
>> through a $30k projector. Clear?
>
> Perhaps if you go to the gym instead of sitting on your ass and watching
> TV through a $30,000 projector, you could be ugly but thin?

Thin, ugly, and sweaty.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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[Schizoid Man]

Clyde Slick wrote:
> "Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Z Man wrote:
>
>
>>>I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
>>>through a $30k projector. Clear?
>>
>>Perhaps if you go to the gym instead of sitting on your ass and watching
>>TV through a $30,000 projector, you could be ugly but thin?
>
>
> Thin, ugly, and sweaty.

I'm sure the slob has access to a shower.

[Z Man]

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
> ...
>>Z Man wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I am already fat and ugly, I would like to be fat, ugly and watching TV
>>> through a $30k projector. Clear?
>>
>> Perhaps if you go to the gym instead of sitting on your ass and watching
>> TV through a $30,000 projector, you could be ugly but thin?
>
> Thin, ugly, and sweaty.

Sounds good to me...

[[email protected]]

Gary Edelstein asks:

"Comments? Is this standard practice in high end shops? Should it be?

Any other suggestions on what I should have done and can do now? "

It is SOP for high end shops to charge you for things you don't need.
The components already come with patch cords, leaving only the TV and
the speakers. Home Depot sells perfect speaker cable at .23 cents per
foot. Tell the high end shop you can supply your own wire and teh
patch cords that came with the equipment will do just fine. If they
want to blow the sale over some wire, the hell with them.

[dizzy]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:56:46 -0500, Gary A. Edelstein
> wrote:

>If this
>was, say, a $15K or more installation, I would say that $300 for
>interconnects and wire wasn't worth quibbling about.

If the installation were that big, most shops would get you far more
than $300 in wires.