Differences between amplifiers are real... I believe...

[Schizoid Man]

Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan Caspian power
amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I was on my way.

The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the that the sound was
louder at lower volume levels, though this can be attributed to the fact
that the Roksan was rated approximately 20wpc more than my Marantz.

However, there were definitely certain sonic differences without indulge in
superlatives like "lush" or "rich".

A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into Welcome to the
Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on the right channel.

I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it sounded like
background noise layered over by the guitar and synth work. But last night,
the cymbals really shone.

I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of multi-thousand
dollars amps and preamps go, believing the money is better spent on
speakers. But I was really floored by the difference in the detail that the
Roksan provided.

[Tim Martin]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...

> The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the that the sound
was
> louder at lower volume levels, though this can be attributed to the fact
> that the Roksan was rated approximately 20wpc more than my Marantz.

No, if the sound is louder at lower volume levels, it means the Roksan is
distorting more.

Tim

[Schizoid Man]

"Tim Martin" > wrote in message

>> louder at lower volume levels, though this can be attributed to the fact
>> that the Roksan was rated approximately 20wpc more than my Marantz.
>
> No, if the sound is louder at lower volume levels, it means the Roksan is
> distorting more.

Good point, Tim. The power difference probably is too small to register any
difference in the loudness. Hmmm. Acoustics, perhaps?

[Tim Martin]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...

> Good point, Tim. The power difference probably is too small to register
any
> difference in the loudness. Hmmm. Acoustics, perhaps?

Perhaps the amplifiers have different gains, and you're not setting the
pre-amplifier volume control accurately when you switch betwen power amps?

Tim

[Michael Conzo]

"Signal" > wrote:

> Stewart Pinkerton reported audible differences between a bunch of amps
> he tried in double blind tests - and he's a pre-conditioned skeptic!


The few audio pragmatists here would agree that possible "differences"
between amps are possible. But we would also agree that these "differences"
are mostly irrelevant, given that other issues are much more important.
These include the difference that is created when a speaker is moved, say,
100mm - something that would have a much greater effect on the sound than
any "amplifier difference".

The problem for the audio ratbags is that they take the existance of a
"difference" and then attempt to rank the different items. This is
impossible under current technology. One persons "colourations" are another
persons "normalacy".

[Fella]

Schizoid Man wrote:

> Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan Caspian power
> amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I was on my way.
>
>
> A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into Welcome to the
> Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on the right channel.
>
> I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it sounded like
> background noise layered over by the guitar and synth work. But last night,
> the cymbals really shone.
>
> I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of multi-thousand
> dollars amps and preamps go, believing the money is better spent on
> speakers. But I was really floored by the difference in the detail that the
> Roksan provided.
>
>

Hi,

Most probably, if you would go back and listen to the same sequence with
the marantz now, the "cymbals" will "really shine" in that one also, now
that you've _learned_ how that particular sound is supposed to come out,
courtesy of the roksan.

The learning effect ... this is one aspect of human hearing the DBT/ABX
protocols needs to address if they are to ever become accepted as
scientifically valid methods of testing the differences between audio
products.

NOTE: I have some spare time from projects and came back to read the
group to get some info on the krueger/Atkinson debate. :) Couldn't
resist the urge to put my two cents of worth forward on this one.

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

> On Fri, 27 May 2005 11:35:51 +0300, Fella > wrote:
>
>
>>The learning effect ... this is one aspect of human hearing the DBT/ABX
>>protocols needs to address if they are to ever become accepted as
>>scientifically valid methods of testing the differences between audio
>>products.
>
>
> Well, DBT's *are* one of the validated scientific methods for testing
> subjective differences.
>
>

Sure.

[EddieM]

> Fella wrote
>> Schizoid Man wrote:
>
>
>
>> Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan Caspian power
>> amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I was on my way.
>>
>>
>> A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into Welcome to the
>> Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on the right
>> channel.
>>
>> I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it sounded like
>> background noise layered over by the guitar and synth work. But last night,
>> the cymbals really shone.
>>
>> I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of multi-thousand
>> dollars amps and preamps go, believing the money is better spent on
>> speakers. But I was really floored by the difference in the detail that the
>> Roksan provided.
>
> Hi,


Yo Fella, watcha makin over there man!


> Most probably, if you would go back and listen to the same sequence with the
> marantz now, the "cymbals" will "really shine" in that one also, now that
> you've _learned_ how that particular sound is supposed to come out, courtesy
> of the roksan.

I never really experience it that way. Once I hear great improvement using
different components, I tend to forget what those sonic improvents were
after say about a week... or a month after removing that particular component.
I easily recognize those improvements once I put them back again.



> The learning effect ... this is one aspect of human hearing the DBT/ABX
> protocols needs to address if they are to ever become accepted as
> scientifically valid methods of testing the differences between audio
> products.

I just think that some people are sensitive listener than others. Years ago,
I remember a friend who was already an audiophile then who invited me
to listen in his system and keep asking me to listen to the excellent
basslines to a bunch a songs and I couldn't figure out what the hell he was
talkin about. I keep listening to the songs which he keep playing repeatedly
and all I hear is the loud voices, the cymbals and the sound all around the
room. That just the way it was for me during that time and for a long time.
I would keep on focusing to a particular instrument but I get easily
distracted
by the rest of the sound. Not so anymore. And it was like magic after I got
around to it. Listening to a particular instrument in well recorded songs
now actually is quite stimulating. It's easy as 1-2-3.


> NOTE: I have some spare time from projects and came back to read the group
> to get some info on the krueger/Atkinson debate. :) Couldn't resist the urge
> to put my two cents of worth forward on this one.

Why did you scram anyway, I forgot.

[[email protected]]

Schizoid Man opined:

"Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan Caspian
power
amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I was on my way.


The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the that the sound
was
louder at lower volume levels, though this can be attributed to the
fact
that the Roksan was rated approximately 20wpc more than my Marantz.


However, there were definitely certain sonic differences without
indulge in
superlatives like "lush" or "rich".


A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into Welcome to the
Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on the right
channel.

I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it sounded like
background noise layered over by the guitar and synth work. But last
night,
the cymbals really shone.


I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of
multi-thousand
dollars amps and preamps go, believing the money is better spent on
speakers. But I was really floored by the difference in the detail that
the
Roksan provided."


The possiblity is real, that there was/is some sort of difference
between your Marantz and the Roksan that caused you to hear something
you had not noticed before. There is also the possibilty that you just
happened to hear something you had not noticed before, irrespective of
the change.

Thankfully we know how to find out for sure. There is a method for
determining real differences as opposed to imagined ones. The
possibility exists that you just may have been listening differently
BECAUSE you had a different amp connected, not neccessarily becuase the
amp was different sounding.

[[email protected]]

Fella wrote:

"The learning effect ... this is one aspect of human hearing the
DBT/ABX
protocols needs to address if they are to ever become accepted as
scientifically valid methods of testing the differences between audio
products."

IF THEY ARE TO EVER BECOME ACCEPTED AS SCIENTIFICALLY VALID METHODS?

My good sir, they are already accepted as scientifically valid, by
everyone except a tiny minority of high-enders.

[George Middius]

StupidBorg 863 (rev.05-27-05) whined:

>"The learning effect ... this is one aspect of human hearing the
>DBT/ABX
>protocols needs to address if they are to ever become accepted as
>scientifically valid methods of testing the differences between audio
>products."
>
>IF THEY ARE TO EVER BECOME ACCEPTED AS SCIENTIFICALLY VALID METHODS?
>
>My good sir, they are already accepted as scientifically valid, by
>everyone except a tiny minority of high-enders.

Which eye did you stab with the hot fork?

[Jenn]

Fella wrote:
> Most probably, if you would go back and listen to the same sequence with
> the marantz now, the "cymbals" will "really shine" in that one also, now
> that you've _learned_ how that particular sound is supposed to come out,
> courtesy of the roksan.

Interesting. That has not been my experience.

[Arny Krueger]

Schizoid Man wrote:
> Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan
Caspian
> power amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I
was on my
> way.
>
> The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the
that the
> sound was louder at lower volume levels, though this can
be
> attributed to the fact that the Roksan was rated
approximately 20wpc
> more than my Marantz.
>
> However, there were definitely certain sonic differences
without
> indulge in superlatives like "lush" or "rich".
>
> A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into
Welcome to the
> Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on
the right
> channel.
>
> I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it
sounded like
> background noise layered over by the guitar and synth
work. But last
> night, the cymbals really shone.
>
> I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of
> multi-thousand dollars amps and preamps go, believing the
money is
> better spent on speakers. But I was really floored by the
difference
> in the detail that the Roksan provided.

The absence of a time-synchronized, level-matched
bias-controlled test is noted.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 31 May 2005 07:07:22 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Schizoid Man wrote:
>> Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan
>Caspian
>> power amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I
>was on my
>> way.
>>
>> The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the
>that the
>> sound was louder at lower volume levels, though this can
>be
>> attributed to the fact that the Roksan was rated
>approximately 20wpc
>> more than my Marantz.
>>
>> However, there were definitely certain sonic differences
>without
>> indulge in superlatives like "lush" or "rich".
>>
>> A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into
>Welcome to the
>> Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on
>the right
>> channel.
>>
>> I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it
>sounded like
>> background noise layered over by the guitar and synth
>work. But last
>> night, the cymbals really shone.
>>
>> I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of
>> multi-thousand dollars amps and preamps go, believing the
>money is
>> better spent on speakers. But I was really floored by the
>difference
>> in the detail that the Roksan provided.
>
>The absence of a time-synchronized, level-matched
>bias-controlled test is noted.

And how many did *you* perform when you described the abysmal sound
that you heard at the NY show?

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Schizoid Man wrote:
> > Yesterday, I was lucky enough to borrow my friend's Roksan
> Caspian
> > power amp. I used my Marantz intregrated as a preamp and I
> was on my
> > way.
> >
> > The only noticeable difference right off the bat was the
> that the
> > sound was louder at lower volume levels, though this can
> be
> > attributed to the fact that the Roksan was rated
> approximately 20wpc
> > more than my Marantz.
> >
> > However, there were definitely certain sonic differences
> without
> > indulge in superlatives like "lush" or "rich".
> >
> > A small example - about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into
> Welcome to the
> > Machine, there is a very pronounced series of splashes on
> the right
> > channel.
> >
> > I've heard the song 10,000 times before and every time it
> sounded like
> > background noise layered over by the guitar and synth
> work. But last
> > night, the cymbals really shone.
> >
> > I've always been a bit of a skeptic as far as the value of
> > multi-thousand dollars amps and preamps go, believing the
> money is
> > better spent on speakers. But I was really floored by the
> difference
> > in the detail that the Roksan provided.
>
> The absence of a time-synchronized, level-matched
> bias-controlled test is noted.


Absensce of anything meaningful to say noted.




Scott Wheeler