Purchase question [Archive]

Bill Riel

May 12th 05, 11:17 PM

In article s.com>,
says...
> In article , "Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!"
> > wrote:
>
> > I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi (not
> > home cinema) purpose.
> >
>
> > I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
> >
>
> > I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>
> If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
> sound.

Disagree - at least *I* can't tell high bitrate, LAME encoded MP3's from
original source. I doubt many people (if any) could.

> Any radio shack junk will suit.
>
> Now scram!

Wow! What a friendly welcome!

Anyway, to the Original Poster - That's quite a list, and I haven't
listened to anything on it. I do have some familiarity with some Yamaha
and Denon receivers and I've found them to be fine - in general I'd
recommend that you go for a receiver with lots of power. 100 wpc should
be just fine.

For speakers, you are going to have to listen to them yourself and see
what you like. I'd personally put as much of your budget to speakers as
you can afford. At the lower price range, I would recommend looking into
Paradigm, Axiom, NHT. For a bit more money PSB, B&W are good brands to
look into.

But, it's your system and you are the one who has to like it - do some
listening first.

--
Bill

Fleetie

May 13th 05, 01:43 AM

Yeah, I'd like to see the results versus a TDA2030 in a double-blind test.

Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Joseph Oberlander

May 13th 05, 04:48 AM

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:

What's your budget and what country do you live in?

Robert Morein

May 13th 05, 06:07 AM

"Bill Riel" > wrote in message
t...
> In article s.com>,
> says...
> > In article , "Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi
(not
> > > home cinema) purpose.
> > >
> >
> > > I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
> > >
> >
> > > I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
> >
> > If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
> > sound.
>
> Disagree - at least *I* can't tell high bitrate, LAME encoded MP3's from
> original source. I doubt many people (if any) could.
>
> > Any radio shack junk will suit.
> >
> > Now scram!
>
> Wow! What a friendly welcome!
>
It was a forgery.

Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro

May 13th 05, 03:08 PM

In rec.audio.opinion Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! > wrote:
> I'm planning to buy receiver
> + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi (not home cinema) purpose.

Consider also a pair of bookshelf speakers plus a subwoofer. Or a
pair of floorstanding speakers plus a subwoofer. Some of your choices
below need it (2-way floorstand speakers).

> I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.

> I founded these receivers and loudspeakers:
> Receivers:
> Kenwood KRF-V4550 DS
> Kenwood KRF-V7070D

I am not familiar with these.

> Yamaha V450 Titan
> Yamaha V550 Titan
> Yamaha RXV 457

The Yamaha RX-V457 is the 2005 model which replaces the RX-V450.
The RX-V550 (now RX-V557) has a bit more features (I don't remember
which). You can go to the Yamaha web page

http://yamaha-hifi.de/cat1.php?&idcat1=1&lang=e

and following the links, compare two or more products. For instance:

http://www.yamaha-online.de/compare.php?idprod=1221

I suggest that you download the operating manuals to check on the
receivers really work, how many inputs, etc..

Note, any receiver on this price range should be good enough (signal to
noise ratio around 100dB, flat frequency response from 20 Hz-20 kHz,
distorsion around 0,06% - 0,08%) that you won't notice differences in
sound quality among them.

BTW, Yamaha makes subwoofers like the YST-SW315:
http://yamaha-hifi.de/products.php?lang=e&idcat1=1&idcat2=24&idcat3=44&idprod=1097
or YST-SW515 (new model):
http://yamaha-hifi.de/products.php?lang=e&idcat1=1&idcat2=24&idcat3=44&idprod=1204

I think these subwoofers have a good price/quality ratio. Compare the
price of 25 cm subwoofers from the other manufacturers.

> Denon 1705
> Harman Kardon 3380

Also good brands.

> Loudspeakers:

> Jamo E570
http://www.jamo.com/Default.asp?ID=3825&M=Shop&PID=10705&ProductID=16647
> Jamo E660
http://www.jamo.com/Default.asp?ID=3825&M=Shop&PID=10705&ProductID=16850

Frequency Range 45Hz - 20kHz

Unlike other speakers below, these are real 3-way speakers so I thought
you might not need a subwoofer, but then I noticed that its woofers are
no bigger than the 2-way designs. Curious.

> Jamo HCS6000 - for home cinema

> Celestion F20
http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f20.html

This is a two-way speaker quite similar to the bookshelf F15.
So it really should be combined with a subwoofer, because it
lacks a bit of low bass:
Frequency Range ( ±2dB ) 60 Hz - 20 kHz

A friend of mine has these speakers but combined with the Celestion
S80 subwoofer:
http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/s80.html.
He is happy with them.

> Celestion F30
http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html

This is still a two-way speaker, although it has two bass drivers (which
only gain 5 Hz compared with the F20). So it also should be combined
with a subwoofer.
Frequency Range ( ±2dB ) 55 Hz - 20 kHz

Type 3 way / bass reflex
Tweeter Titanium dome 19 mm (3/4")
Bass/ Midrange 2 x 130 mm (5 1/4") PP-coated driver
Frequency Range ( ±2dB ) 55 Hz - 20 kHz
Crossover frequency 3.5 kHz
Power handling 120 Watts
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 90 db
Impedance 8 Ohm
Magnetic Shielding Yes
Weight 13 kg (28.6 lbs)
Dimensions (H x W x D) 900 x 198 x 272 mm
35.4 x 7.8 x 10.7"

> JBL E30

> Infinity Primus 250

This one ? PRIMUS II 250
http://international.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/products/category/product.asp?prod=primusII250%2F230&cat=BFS&ser=PR2&SerName=PrimusII&language=ENGLISH

Recommended Amplifier Power 10 - 150 watts
Frequency Response 49Hz - 20kHz *
Sensitivity (2,83 V @ 1m) 92dB
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Crossover Frequency 2500Hz; 24dB/Octave
Low-Frequency Driver Dual 130mm CMMD, magnetically shielded
High-Frequency Driver 19mm CMMD, magnetically shielded
Dimensions (H x W x D) 900 x 187 x 300 mm
Weight 16kg

* The web page says 19Hz - 20kHz, and I found that strange, since this
speaker has a construction similar to the Celestion F30 (2x 130mm woofer,
similar overall dimensions) which only goes to 55Hz. But the PDF:

http://international.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/owners/PrimusII/PrimusII_Euro.pdf

has 49Hz - 20kHz, so the "19Hz" in the web page must be a typo.

As with the Celestion, I recommend that you combine it with a subwoofer.

> Vtrek Fenglei No2 - for home cinema
> Dali 6
> Dali Blue 3003
http://www.dali.dk/Page.asp?MMID=1&MID=3&UMID=8&UUMID=46&PID=109#tech

> Dali Blue 5005
http://www.dali.dk/Page.asp?MMID=1&MID=3&UMID=8&UUMID=46&PID=110#tech

These 2 Dali speakers seem similar to the Celestion and Infinity (twin woofers),
but Dali claims more low-end bass:
3003: Frequency Response, ±3dB 42 Hz - 24 kHz
5005: Frequency Response, ±3dB 37 Hz - 25 kHz

> What sound card to buy (in range up to 80$)?

Something with a digital output. So the Digital to Analogic conversion
will be done in the receiver, and the sound quality of the card will be
more or less irrelevant.

> I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.

Note that both for the receivers and reasonable sound cards the differences
should be inaudible.

--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/

..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94

Sander deWaal

May 13th 05, 03:28 PM

Joseph Oberlander > said:

>Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:

>What's your budget and what country do you live in?

Hungary, can't you tell? ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

Bill Riel

May 13th 05, 04:15 PM

In article >,
says...

> It was a forgery.

Ugh - I hope that's not common around here :-(

--
Bill

Jellylegs

May 13th 05, 11:03 PM

"Bobo Morein" > wrote in message
rdnews.com...
> In article , "Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!"
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi (not
>> home cinema) purpose.
>>
>
>> I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
>>
>
>> I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>
> If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
> sound.
>
> Any radio shack junk will suit.
>
> Now scram!
>
>
> Bob
>
>

Well said Bob,i wouldn't even advise him to go
to radio shack,just stick to his ****ty PC speakers.

Robert Morein

May 14th 05, 07:23 AM

"Bill Riel" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> > It was a forgery.
>
> Ugh - I hope that's not common around here :-(
>
> --
> Bill

It's extremely common. rec.audio.opinion is extremely rambunctious.
I post from giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com

Tim Martin

May 14th 05, 11:27 AM

"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" > wrote in message
...

" Celestion F30
http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html

This is still a two-way speaker, although it has two bass drivers (which
only gain 5 Hz compared with the F20). So it also should be combined
with a subwoofer.
Frequency Range ( ±2dB ) 55 Hz - 20 kHz"

I have a pair of F30s; I also have the Celestion S80 powered subwoofer.

Unless you are listening at very high sound levels, you won't need the
subwoofer for music with the F30s, just boost the bass a little to
compensate for the speakers' rolloff.

With the subwoofer level set to sound OK on DVDs, I find its better to use
some bass cut for listening to quite a lot of music.

Tim

Nath

May 14th 05, 11:55 AM

"Tim Martin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> " Celestion F30
> http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html
>
> This is still a two-way speaker, although it has two bass drivers (which
> only gain 5 Hz compared with the F20). So it also should be combined
> with a subwoofer.
> Frequency Range ( ±2dB ) 55 Hz - 20 kHz"
>
> I have a pair of F30s; I also have the Celestion S80 powered subwoofer.
>
> Unless you are listening at very high sound levels, you won't need the
> subwoofer for music with the F30s, just boost the bass a little to
> compensate for the speakers' rolloff.
>
> With the subwoofer level set to sound OK on DVDs, I find its better to use
> some bass cut for listening to quite a lot of music.
>
> Tim

Depends on the room. My speakers are 55hz too, and go down plenty low enough
in a smaller room with no sub.

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!

May 14th 05, 06:37 PM

> Anyway, to the Original Poster - That's quite a list, and I haven't
> listened to anything on it. I do have some familiarity with some Yamaha
> and Denon receivers and I've found them to be fine - in general I'd
> recommend that you go for a receiver with lots of power. 100 wpc should
> be just fine.

I bought Dali Concept 6. I'm very satisfied with them.

> For speakers, you are going to have to listen to them yourself and see
> what you like. I'd personally put as much of your budget to speakers as
> you can afford. At the lower price range, I would recommend looking into
> Paradigm, Axiom, NHT. For a bit more money PSB, B&W are good brands to
> look into.
>
> But, it's your system and you are the one who has to like it - do some
> listening first.

Thanks. I already ordered Denon DRA-455 receiver.

Now I'm looking for the right sound card.

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!

May 14th 05, 06:58 PM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
.net...
>
>
> Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:
>
> What's your budget and what country do you live in?

Croatia, and list was made based on my budget and availability of audio
components.

Unfortunatelly, here is all audio equipment at least 50% more expensive then
prices on internet.

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!

May 14th 05, 07:12 PM

> Anyway, to the Original Poster - That's quite a list, and I haven't
> listened to anything on it. I do have some familiarity with some Yamaha
> and Denon receivers and I've found them to be fine - in general I'd
> recommend that you go for a receiver with lots of power. 100 wpc should
> be just fine.

I will probably order Denon AVR455 receiver. It is currently best buy here
in Croatia for my budget.

> For speakers, you are going to have to listen to them yourself and see
> what you like. I'd personally put as much of your budget to speakers as
> you can afford. At the lower price range, I would recommend looking into
> Paradigm, Axiom, NHT. For a bit more money PSB, B&W are good brands to
> look into.
>
> But, it's your system and you are the one who has to like it - do some
> listening first.

I bought Dali Concept 6. I'm very satisfied with them.(for now I just
connected them to my old hi-fi)

Thanks.

Now I'm looking for the right sound card.

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!

May 14th 05, 07:27 PM

"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" > wrote in message
...

/cut

Wow, that was really much :-)

What is the difference between analogue receivers (Denon DRA455 and Harman
Kardon 3380) and digital receivers (all others in the same range of price,
for instance Yamaha RXV457) in quality of sound?

Since I will mostly listen to my mp3 collection is it better to buy sound
card with digital output and wire it directly into digital input of some
home cinema receiver (which generally has 'worse' sound than analogue
receiver) or to wire it into analogue receiver ?

Generally, for same price analogue receivers have more quality output than
home cinema receivers, but in my case is that so?

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!

May 14th 05, 07:29 PM

> Thanks. I already ordered Denon DRA-455 receiver.

But I still can cancel it in 3 days, so if someone has something against
speak now ;-)

Bill Riel

May 14th 05, 08:52 PM

In article >,
"Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!" > wrote:

> > Thanks. I already ordered Denon DRA-455 receiver.
>
> But I still can cancel it in 3 days, so if someone has something against
> speak now ;-)

I think that will be fine - I have a Denon DRA-395, which I think is the
same unit except that the 395 has a bit more power.

I don't know much about sound cards though...

--
Bill

Joseph Oberlander

May 14th 05, 09:20 PM

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:

> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> .net...
>
>>
>>Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:
>>
>>What's your budget and what country do you live in?
>
>
> Croatia, and list was made based on my budget and availability of audio
> components.
>
> Unfortunatelly, here is all audio equipment at least 50% more expensive then
> prices on internet.

The truth is that most amplifiers will be fine. They all put
out 50-100wpc into 8ohm speakers, more or less the same, so
consider the least feature-laden model for the money.(though
one that still does a good job) Onkyo and Denon and Yamaha
are fine choices - most of the differences are small and
have more to do with extra channels and processing modes.

The area to spend the most money and time is the speakers.
I personally like Tannoy as they are easy to find in Europe
and tend to sound nice. Very good budget models. If you
can find a set of Mercury or MercuryX(MX) speakers used,
These will be as good as any of the others you listed for
quite a decent price.

Joseph Oberlander

May 14th 05, 09:27 PM

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:

> "Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> /cut
>
> Wow, that was really much :-)
>
> What is the difference between analogue receivers (Denon DRA455 and Harman
> Kardon 3380) and digital receivers (all others in the same range of price,
> for instance Yamaha RXV457) in quality of sound?

Very very little unless you have difficult or very large speakers.
Moest people find even 10watts per channel to be painffully loud(over
100db per speaker in some cases), so unless you have a difficult speaker
or a party, you will never run any of them loud enough to have the
differences become apparent.

OTOH, this is a good thing - just buy any amp of the three and enjoy.

> Since I will mostly listen to my mp3 collection is it better to buy sound
> card with digital output and wire it directly into digital input of some
> home cinema receiver (which generally has 'worse' sound than analogue
> receiver) or to wire it into analogue receiver ?

My suggestion would be to buy a dvd changer for the system(or
CD if that's too expensive) that can play MP3s. You can skip
a link in the chain that way. Most soundcards are made more
for games and sound effects than audio playback, while a
dedicated DVD player sounds good because it has to. :)

A proper DVD player, btw, will enable you to burn 4.6gig
worth of mp3s onto a DVD. A 5 dvd changer like this is
effectively an IPod.(but one that you can burn and change
at will for a couple of dollars per dvd)

Joseph Oberlander

May 14th 05, 09:28 PM

Uzmi Novce I Bjezi! wrote:

>>Thanks. I already ordered Denon DRA-455 receiver.
>
>
> But I still can cancel it in 3 days, so if someone has something against
> speak now ;-)

It's a good receiver. Plenty of oomph for driving most speakers
(and can run a pair of 4 ohm speakers if it has to, IIRC)

Rich Wilson

May 15th 05, 08:21 PM

"Bill Riel" > wrote in message
t...
> In article s.com>,
> says...
>> In article , "Uzmi Novce I Bjezi!"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi
>> > (not
>> > home cinema) purpose.
>> >
>>
>> > I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
>> >
>>
>> > I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>>
>> If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
>> sound.
>
> Disagree - at least *I* can't tell high bitrate, LAME encoded MP3's from
> original source. I doubt many people (if any) could.

I'm with you on that but I don't think we'd manage to convince many people
round here!

Stimpy

May 15th 05, 09:28 PM

Rich Wilson wrote:
>
>>>> I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>>>
>>> If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
>>> sound.
>>
>> Disagree - at least *I* can't tell high bitrate, LAME encoded MP3's from
>> original source. I doubt many people (if any) could.
>
> I'm with you on that but I don't think we'd manage to convince many people
> round here!
>

Thirded... After some months of consideration and testing, I decided I
couldn't tell the difference between CD and 320kbps, LAME-encoded mp3s so
moved exclusively to the latter when I set up my media server about 18 months
ago

Joseph Oberlander

May 16th 05, 03:52 AM

Stimpy wrote:

> Rich Wilson wrote:
>
>>>>>I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>>>>
>>>>If you're listening to MP3's and radio, you have no concept of quality
>>>>sound.
>>>
>>>Disagree - at least *I* can't tell high bitrate, LAME encoded MP3's from
>>>original source. I doubt many people (if any) could.
>>
>>I'm with you on that but I don't think we'd manage to convince many people
>>round here!
>>
>
>
> Thirded... After some months of consideration and testing, I decided I
> couldn't tell the difference between CD and 320kbps, LAME-encoded mp3s so
> moved exclusively to the latter when I set up my media server about 18 months
> ago

Conbsidering that this is a 50% reduction in bit-rate over the
original and compression under the 40-60% range has basically
no meaningful lost data(see typical "lossless" compression
methods - they all clock in at about 320k MP3 size), plus
the fact that CD quality is much better than most peolpe can
hear, yes, 320K properly encoded will give you a recreation
of the original that a side-by-side test would be hard pressed
to reveal.

Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio, and 192 is
maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.

Joe Kesselman

May 17th 05, 02:38 AM

> Thirded... After some months of consideration and testing, I decided I
> couldn't tell the difference between CD and 320kbps, LAME-encoded mp3s

If you want to test, put some stuff with nice harsh harmonics thru the
compression. Sharp-edged waveforms with lots of high harmonics are a
good test of just how well the signal can be reconstructed.

A co-worker did this with a series of different encoders. Of that set,
LAME was one of the best for the pulse waveforms he was testing.
Unfortunately I don't remember where he posted the results of that
study; I'll try to dig that info out again.

Fred

May 17th 05, 09:19 PM

> Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
> 128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio,

128 sounds pretty good to me much like CD quality and better than FM which
only has an audible range of 50-15Khz. But on rare occasions, under the
right conditions, and if my old tube tuner could lock in on a good FM
station with a clean music source it sounds as good as anything vinyl, tape
of CD I have.

and 192 is
> maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.
>

On a good reel-to-reel deck you shouldn't hear wobble, wow or flutter - only
the damn hiss.

Fred

May 17th 05, 09:43 PM

I like Turtle Beach soundcards - cheap and clean sound. Creative is pretty
good too but perhaps not as clean although hard to tell without A/B
comparison.

I have a Harman Kardon receiver only rated at 35wpc but much more powerful
and cleaner than my 120wpc receiver.

JC Martin

May 17th 05, 10:40 PM

Soundcard?

Get yourself a Lynx.

-JC

Alex Rodriguez

May 18th 05, 10:35 PM

In article >, says...

>Hy!
>I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi (not
>home cinema) purpose.
>I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
>I founded these receivers and loudspeakers:
>Receivers:
>Kenwood KRF-V4550 DS
>Kenwood KRF-V7070D
>Yamaha V450 Titan
>Yamaha V550 Titan
>Yamaha RXV 457
>Denon 1705
>Harman Kardon 3380

>Loudspeakers:
>Jamo E570
>Jamo E660
>Jamo HCS6000 - for home cinema
>Celestion F20
>Celestion F30
>JBL E30
>Infinity Primus 250
>Vtrek Fenglei No2 - for home cinema
>Dali 6
>Dali Blue 3003
>Dali Blue 5005
>What would you reccomend?
>What sound card to buy (in range up to 80$)?
>I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.

If you prefer quality, I question your choice of MP3's.
------------
Alex

harrogate2

May 19th 05, 07:54 AM

"Alex Rodriguez" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
says...
>
> >Hy!
> >I'm planning to buy receiver + floorstanding loudspeakers for hi-fi
(not
> >home cinema) purpose.
> >I would mostly listen to mp3's (all kinds) and radio.
> >I founded these receivers and loudspeakers:
> >Receivers:
> >Kenwood KRF-V4550 DS
> >Kenwood KRF-V7070D
> >Yamaha V450 Titan
> >Yamaha V550 Titan
> >Yamaha RXV 457
> >Denon 1705
> >Harman Kardon 3380
>
> >Loudspeakers:
> >Jamo E570
> >Jamo E660
> >Jamo HCS6000 - for home cinema
> >Celestion F20
> >Celestion F30
> >JBL E30
> >Infinity Primus 250
> >Vtrek Fenglei No2 - for home cinema
> >Dali 6
> >Dali Blue 3003
> >Dali Blue 5005
> >What would you reccomend?
> >What sound card to buy (in range up to 80$)?
> >I prefer quality of sound over technical possibilities.
>
> If you prefer quality, I question your choice of MP3's.
> ------------
> Alex
>

Whilst I am sure many people in this NG would love to help, please
take note that uk.rec.audio is a UK newsgroup and as such many of the
products that you mention will be unknown in the UK.

Accepted it is cross-posted, but perhaps a little more thought in the
choice of groups might not go amiss?

--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com

Rich Wilson

May 20th 05, 12:33 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
> Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
> 128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio, and 192 is
> maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.
>

What sort of tape are you using?!! You must have a damn good radio, too.

Stewart Pinkerton

May 20th 05, 06:34 AM

On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:33:53 GMT, "Rich Wilson"
> wrote:

>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
>> 128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio, and 192 is
>> maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.
>>
>What sort of tape are you using?!! You must have a damn good radio, too.

Not necessarily. For a couple of decades, live broadcasts on Radio 3
FM were the gold standard for Hi-Fi in the UK. If Joe thinks that FM
sounds 'gritty', then either he's got a very *bad* FM radio, or his
local broadcasts are crap. The latter is unfortunately the more
likely................. :-(
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Joseph Oberlander

May 20th 05, 07:34 PM

Rich Wilson wrote:

> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>
>>Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
>>128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio, and 192 is
>>maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.
>>
>
> What sort of tape are you using?!! You must have a damn good radio, too.

By "gritty" I mean full of little defects and stuff - it's
hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
in a hilly area) Tape has tons of compression as well,
especially if you use any of the noise reduction settings.

128K MP3 is junk. Let's leave it at that, okay?

I use very nice metal tape properly bias-adjusted.
Other than the background hiss, it's pretty good.
Much better than LP or radio if done correctly.
(I'd trade hiss for LP's defects anyday)

Fred

May 21st 05, 08:36 AM

> (I'd trade hiss for LP's defects anyday)
>

I use a software from MAGiX to remove most of the hiss from tapes. It could
also remove most of the pops, clicks and scratches from LPs. If I remember
correctly dbx is pretty good in removing much of the hiss if you have that
feature on your tape deck.

The analog laser turntable from Japan would remove all the LP defects that
you would have form a conventional turntable.

tony sayer

May 21st 05, 09:03 AM

In article >, Joseph
Oberlander > writes
>
>
>Rich Wilson wrote:
>
>> "Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>
>>>
>>>Lower than that, though, it gets plainly audable. Quickly.
>>>128 is very "gritty" sounding, like FM radio, and 192 is
>>>maybe like tape but without the wobble and hiss.
>>>
>>
>> What sort of tape are you using?!! You must have a damn good radio, too.
>
>By "gritty" I mean full of little defects and stuff - it's
>hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
>compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
>in a hilly area)

Take it you are using a "directional" aerial?...

--
Tony Sayer

Tim Martin

May 21st 05, 09:40 AM

"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
k.net...

> it's
> hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
> compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
> in a hilly area)

That must depend on what country you live in.

Tim

Don Pearce

May 21st 05, 10:58 AM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 08:40:25 GMT, "Tim Martin"
> wrote:

>
>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
>> it's
>> hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
>> compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
>> in a hilly area)
>
>That must depend on what country you live in.
>
>Tim
>

I'm not sure that radio is that geopolitically aware.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Arny Krueger

May 21st 05, 11:38 AM

"Fred" > wrote in message
...
> > (I'd trade hiss for LP's defects anyday)
> >
>
> I use a software from MAGiX to remove most of the hiss
from tapes. It could
> also remove most of the pops, clicks and scratches from
LPs. If I remember
> correctly dbx is pretty good in removing much of the hiss
if you have that
> feature on your tape deck.
>
> The analog laser turntable from Japan would remove all the
LP defects that
> you would have form a conventional turntable.

I heard said turntable at HE2005. It sounded good, but it
did not remove all of the audible defects of the LP format.
It's an archivists' tool.

dave weil

May 21st 05, 12:49 PM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 09:58:11 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

>On Sat, 21 May 2005 08:40:25 GMT, "Tim Martin"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
k.net...
>>
>>> it's
>>> hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
>>> compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
>>> in a hilly area)
>>
>>That must depend on what country you live in.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>
>I'm not sure that radio is that geopolitically aware.

US radio certainly isn't.

dave weil

May 21st 05, 12:51 PM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 06:38:53 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>
>"Fred" > wrote in message
...
>> > (I'd trade hiss for LP's defects anyday)
>> >
>>
>> I use a software from MAGiX to remove most of the hiss
>from tapes. It could
>> also remove most of the pops, clicks and scratches from
>LPs. If I remember
>> correctly dbx is pretty good in removing much of the hiss
>if you have that
>> feature on your tape deck.
>>
>> The analog laser turntable from Japan would remove all the
>LP defects that
>> you would have form a conventional turntable.
>
>I heard said turntable at HE2005. It sounded good, but it
>did not remove all of the audible defects of the LP format.
>It's an archivists' tool.

Where are the dbts?

Joseph Oberlander

May 21st 05, 06:16 PM

Arny Krueger wrote:

> I heard said turntable at HE2005. It sounded good, but it
> did not remove all of the audible defects of the LP format.
> It's an archivists' tool.

For so much money that I could set up a small home recording
studio. Or buy a small car. No thanks.

George M. Middius

May 21st 05, 07:26 PM

Joseph O'Blather keeps the class warfare fires burning.

> For so much money that I could set up a small home recording
> studio. Or buy a small car. No thanks.

Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you. Why
would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't afford it?
Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's beyond your means?
You don't see the rest of us whining about what we can't afford. (Except for
Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them, not one of us.)

Tim Martin

May 22nd 05, 10:47 AM

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 08:40:25 GMT, "Tim Martin"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> >> it's
> >> hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
> >> compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
> >> in a hilly area)
> >
> >That must depend on what country you live in.
> >
> >Tim
> >
>
> I'm not sure that radio is that geopolitically aware.

No, but regulation, funding, and service is.

As I understand it, a high-quality radio tuner needs a 200 micro-volt aerial
signal to achieve a 60db signal-to-noise ratio. I also understand that in
the UK, BBC FM radio transmittters and repeaters are sited to deliver a 300
microvolt aerial signal within the service area, based on a two-element
aerial at a height of 10 metres above ground, with 15 metres of co-ax
downlead.

The stated service coverage is 98% for stereo reception, 100% for mono. I
wouldn't describe that as "hard to get".

For anyone interested, here's a list of BBC transmitters

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/freq_find/BBC_national.pdf

Tim

Don Pearce

May 22nd 05, 12:01 PM

On Sun, 22 May 2005 09:47:00 GMT, "Tim Martin"
> wrote:

>
>"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 21 May 2005 08:40:25 GMT, "Tim Martin"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Joseph Oberlander" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>> >
>> >> it's
>> >> hard to get a clean FM signal these days without some
>> >> compression or fading and so on(especially if you are
>> >> in a hilly area)
>> >
>> >That must depend on what country you live in.
>> >
>> >Tim
>> >
>>
>> I'm not sure that radio is that geopolitically aware.
>
>No, but regulation, funding, and service is.
>
>As I understand it, a high-quality radio tuner needs a 200 micro-volt aerial
>signal to achieve a 60db signal-to-noise ratio. I also understand that in
>the UK, BBC FM radio transmittters and repeaters are sited to deliver a 300
>microvolt aerial signal within the service area, based on a two-element
>aerial at a height of 10 metres above ground, with 15 metres of co-ax
>downlead.
>
>The stated service coverage is 98% for stereo reception, 100% for mono. I
>wouldn't describe that as "hard to get".
>
>For anyone interested, here's a list of BBC transmitters
>
>http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/freq_find/BBC_national.pdf
>
>Tim
>

Sure, but how many people have such an antenna installation? Very few
indeed. Most people have the twinax dipole that came with the tuner
coiled up on the floor behind the rest of the hi fi. If they are
really keen, they may have stretched it out.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Dave Plowman (News)

May 22nd 05, 11:10 PM

In article >,
George M. Middius > wrote:
> Joseph O'Blather keeps the class warfare fires burning.

> > For so much money that I could set up a small home recording studio.
> > Or buy a small car. No thanks.

> Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
> Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
> afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
> beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
> can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
> not one of us.)

Good grief. An Merkin ****** posting from his trailer home to a uk group.
Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
important things.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

George M. Middius

May 22nd 05, 11:58 PM

Dave Plowborg still hasn't cracked the poverty barrier.

> > Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
> > Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
> > afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
> > beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
> > can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
> > not one of us.)

> Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
> important things.

Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?

Nath

May 23rd 05, 12:22 AM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dave Plowborg still hasn't cracked the poverty barrier.
>
>> > Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
>> > Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
>> > afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
>> > beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
>> > can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
>> > not one of us.)
>
>> Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
>> important things.
>
> Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?

At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...

Margaret von B.

May 23rd 05, 12:40 AM

Margaret von B.

May 23rd 05, 12:43 AM

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> George M. Middius > wrote:
>> Joseph O'Blather keeps the class warfare fires burning.
>
>> > For so much money that I could set up a small home recording studio.
>> > Or buy a small car. No thanks.
>
>> Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
>> Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
>> afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
>> beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
>> can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
>> not one of us.)
>
> Good grief. An Merkin ****** posting from his trailer home to a uk group.
> Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
> important things.
>

Apparently that does *not* include dental work.

Margaret

MINe 109

May 23rd 05, 12:56 AM

In article >,
"Margaret von B." > wrote:

> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > George M. Middius > wrote:
> >> Joseph O'Blather keeps the class warfare fires burning.
> >
> >> > For so much money that I could set up a small home recording studio.
> >> > Or buy a small car. No thanks.
> >
> >> Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
> >> Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
> >> afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
> >> beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
> >> can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
> >> not one of us.)
> >
> > Good grief. An Merkin ****** posting from his trailer home to a uk group.
> > Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
> > important things.
> >
>
> Apparently that does *not* include dental work.

I guess the SME is export only.

Domestic British turntables for home use:

http://www.driveawaymat.co.uk/4.html

Stephen

George M. Middius

May 23rd 05, 02:01 AM

Nath said:

> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?

> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...

American beers and ales are now the best in the world. You wouldn't know
anything about the current state of affairs, one supposes, because you
haven't stirred from your misbegotten hamlet and its four inbred pubs since,
oh, I'd guess 1978.

Jocelyn Major

May 23rd 05, 06:40 AM

Sorry Guy but for my personnal taste American beer and Ale are far far
far from being the best in the world. It might be the best in the world
for an American. But it is so inferior in taste with Scotish, English,
German, Belgium and even Beer from "Micro-Brasserie" that are opening in
Québec. American Beer are beer what we call in Québec "Biere de
Soif=beer of thirst" while most other beer from all the other countries
are again in Québec "Biere de Degustation= A beer of Tasting". You drink
American Beer because you're thirsty. You will never drink Coors or
Molson or Labatt or Miller in an international beer tasting contest held
outside of US because they would not qualify as a Hi-End Beer. You drink
a NewCastle or a MacEwan or Une mort Subite or Une blanche de Chambly or
a Joe MonFerrand for the taste of it. Telling that American Beer is the
best Beer in the world is like Telling McDonald is the best Gastronomy
in the world. Or if we put it in a audio concept: American Beer are the
4.99 plastic speaker that you can buy at Walmart while the import Beer
are a nice pair of Spendor, or a Cremora, Or any great sounding
Loudspeaker. Try any of those beer I mentionned and I'M pretty sure you
will never go back to American Beer. Even here in Canada Molson always
put a small label on each bottle stating that they are the winner for
the international beer festival held in francfort. Its is one of the
worst tasting beer in Canada. The State do make Great Wine. But for the
beer.... I know it a question of taste. You prefer American Beer and
most European and people from Québec can't stand the taste of the US
Beers. Anyway! Why am I posting a discussion on beer in a AUDIO Group???

Bye and don't forget to enjoy your brew while I will enjoy mine. Cheers!!!

George M. Middius a écrit :
>
> Nath said:
>
>
>>>Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>
>
>>At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>
>
> American beers and ales are now the best in the world. You wouldn't know
> anything about the current state of affairs, one supposes, because you
> haven't stirred from your misbegotten hamlet and its four inbred pubs since,
> oh, I'd guess 1978.
>
>
>
>
>

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 09:24 AM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>
> Nath said:
>
>> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>
>> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>
> American beers and ales are now the best in the world.

George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 09:27 AM

"Jocelyn Major" > wrote in message

> You drink American Beer because you're thirsty. You will never drink Coors
> or Molson or Labatt or Miller in an international beer tasting contest
> held outside of US because they would not qualify as a Hi-End Beer.

Er Jocelyn, Labatt's from your side of the border...

George M. Middius

May 23rd 05, 12:11 PM

Schizoid Man said:

> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.

> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.

Oh take a pill already.

I was talking to Plowborg. Imagine a non-psychotic Krooborg. See what I
mean?

George M. Middius

May 23rd 05, 12:11 PM

Schizoid Man said:

> > You drink American Beer because you're thirsty. You will never drink Coors
> > or Molson or Labatt or Miller in an international beer tasting contest
> > held outside of US because they would not qualify as a Hi-End Beer.

> Er Jocelyn, Labatt's from your side of the border...

He probably meant Genesee.

Don Pearce

May 23rd 05, 12:43 PM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 07:11:08 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>
>
>Schizoid Man said:
>
>> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>
>> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.
>
>Oh take a pill already.
>
>I was talking to Plowborg. Imagine a non-psychotic Krooborg. See what I
>mean?
>
>
Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
A. They are both ****ing close to water.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Nath

May 23rd 05, 02:21 PM

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Nath said:
>
>> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>
>> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>
> American beers and ales are now the best in the world.

In your dreams. Ever tried German beers? That strange thing you feel in your
mouth when drinking good beer- that's taste. You don't get that with
American "shandy" beer-like liquids.

>You wouldn't know
> anything about the current state of affairs, one supposes, because you
> haven't stirred from your misbegotten hamlet and its four inbred pubs
> since,
> oh, I'd guess 1978.

Yeah we all speak "rather" and drive in horse drawn carriages. Every street
has a 5 year old cockey chimney sweep.

Idiot.

For your amusement, a bunch of ill equipped villager's kicked your ass..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/730959.stm

Bill

May 23rd 05, 02:50 PM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 00:22:39 +0100, "Nath" > wrote:

[ . . .]

>>
>> Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>
>At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>

After England and the rest of Europe have defaulted upon almost
everything important, all they can do now is brag about the warm
sludge they call beer. :)

Arny Krueger

May 23rd 05, 02:58 PM

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...

> Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
> A. They are both ****ing close to water.

LOL!

Stimpy

May 23rd 05, 03:26 PM

Margaret von B. wrote:
>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> George M. Middius > wrote:
>>> Joseph O'Blather keeps the class warfare fires burning.
>>
>>>> For so much money that I could set up a small home recording studio.
>>>> Or buy a small car. No thanks.
>>
>>> Not to worry, O'Blather. It's not being marketed to the likes of you.
>>> Why would you even consider buying a $20,000 turntable if you can't
>>> afford it? Or more to the point, why do you have to remind us it's
>>> beyond your means? You don't see the rest of us whining about what we
>>> can't afford. (Except for Krooger, but of course Arnii is one of Them,
>>> not one of us.)
>>
>> Good grief. An Merkin ****** posting from his trailer home to a uk group.
>> Nice to see you George M. In the UK most would spend their money on
>> important things.
>>
>
> Apparently that does *not* include dental work.

....but, sadly, it does involve supporting you murdering right-wing *******s
and your half-witted criminal president

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 03:34 PM

"Bill" > wrote in message

> On Mon, 23 May 2005 00:22:39 +0100, "Nath" > wrote:

>>> Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>>
>>At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>>
>
> After England and the rest of Europe have defaulted upon almost
> everything important, all they can do now is brag about the warm
> sludge they call beer. :)

Isn't it a bit rich of you to say something like this after blowing (please
do pardon the pun) your children's college fund on sexual tourism in
Amsterdam?

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 03:35 PM

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>
> "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
>
>> Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
>> A. They are both ****ing close to water.
>
> LOL!

I am impressed that you know what a punt is, Arny.

George Middius

May 23rd 05, 04:10 PM

Don Pearce said:

>Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
>A. They are both ****ing close to water.

You've changed the text without authorization. The original version referred to
Australian beer.

Arny Krueger

May 23rd 05, 04:12 PM

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >
> > "Don Pearce" > wrote in message
> >
> >> Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
> >> A. They are both ****ing close to water.
> >
> > LOL!
>
> I am impressed that you know what a punt is, Arny.

I'm a long-time canoeing enthusiast, natch. ;-)

George Middius

May 23rd 05, 04:13 PM

Bill said:

>After England and the rest of Europe have defaulted upon almost
>everything important, all they can do now is brag about the warm
>sludge they call beer. :)

How do they manage to export all the fresh beer and keep only the stuff that's
turned for themselves?

George Middius

May 23rd 05, 04:18 PM

Schizoid Man said:

>I am impressed that you know what a punt is, Arny.

He probably doesn't. Arnii has frequently complained that online reference
sources "lied" to him.

Briel

May 23rd 05, 05:19 PM

In article >, says...
>
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> >
> > Nath said:
> >
> >> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
> >
> >> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
> >
> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>
> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.

While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American beers,
there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has created
a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country outside of
Belgium.

There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.

--
Bill

Don Pearce

May 23rd 05, 05:30 PM

On 23 May 2005 08:10:35 -0700, George Middius
> wrote:

>
>Don Pearce said:
>
>>Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?
>>A. They are both ****ing close to water.
>
>You've changed the text without authorization. The original version referred to
>Australian beer.

Isn't it the same place? I speak foreign, you know.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce

May 23rd 05, 05:35 PM

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 05:57 PM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:19:22 GMT, Briel > wrote:

>In article >, says...
>>
>> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>> >
>> > Nath said:
>> >
>> >> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>> >
>> >> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at it...
>> >
>> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>>
>> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.
>
>While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American beers,
>there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has created
>a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country outside of
>Belgium.
>
>There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
>nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
>Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.

First of all, ale IS beer.

Second of all, I would say that many American beers are now AMONG the
best in the world. There are planty of really fine beers being
produced here. Still, subject to the fact that this is opinion, the
most sterling examples of the different styles still reside in other
countries for the most part. Steam beer would be the only
counter-example that I can think of.

However, the beer industry in the US has come light years in the past
two decades. With beers like Sierra Nevada and Anchor Steam, it's been
shown that America can mass-produce beers of world class quality. And,
as noted, there is a multitude of micro-breweries that offer world
class product that produce smaller quantities of great beer. We
probably have the most vibrant and adventurous beer industry in the
world at the moment. Yet, the shelves are FULL of mediocre beer just
waiting to be quaffed by uneducated US consumers.

In my humble town of Nashville, there are FIVE microbreweries that
offer fresh beer in a multitude of styles, brewed right on the
premises and pumped directly from the holding tanks into the glass.
One of them even offers a daily selection of cask-conditioned
British-style ale served at an approriate cellar temperature. They
produce only a pony keg a day and when it's gone it's gone (it usually
only lasts about 2 hours max). That particular brewery is one of only
a handful of breweries in the world that produced the old German style
stone beer. It's always available in sufficient quantites to be
offered as a standard menu item.

Margaret von B.

May 23rd 05, 06:02 PM

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:19:22 GMT, Briel > wrote:

> I don't think Belgium beats the UK for variety. There are even small
> bars in London's West End with their own brewery on site.

Wow! What a unique and fascinating concept. Surely it doesn't exist outside
the UK.
>
> d
>
> Pearce Consulting
> http://www.pearce.uk.com

Who do you consult? Door knobs?

Margaret

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 06:02 PM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:35:52 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

>>There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
>>nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
>>Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.
>
>I don't think Belgium beats the UK for variety.

Probably not. But they still produce what I think are the two ultimate
beers, the Lambic and the Trappist ale.

I'd say that the US far surpasses the UK interms of variety though.
You can get anything from hefeweissen to IPAs. Every world style is
covered somewhere in pretty large quanties in the US. It's hard to
make that case for the UK. Still, the UK has some of what I would call
"ultimate" versions of certain styles like brown ale and stout. It's
hard to beat Samuel Smith and Guinness, two brands that are available
(if not nearly as good, especially Guinness) here in the US.

George Middius

May 23rd 05, 06:06 PM

Briel said:

>> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.

>> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.

>While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American beers,
>there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has created
>a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country outside of
>Belgium.

One can't pester Plowborg and the rest of the simps with reality. He knows what
he knows, and what he doesn't know doesn't matter.

>There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
>nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
>Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.

Even Sluttie has acknowledged the flowering of the microbrewery industry. I was
indulging in hyperbole originally, but on reflection, I'd say there are some
American beers that are unsurpassed anywhere in the world. Not necessarily
pilsners -- Belgium can keep the crown for them. Around here, one of the leading
regionals is Wild Goose. Their IPA is to die for.

Margaret von B.

May 23rd 05, 06:13 PM

"Don Pearce" > wrote in message
...
>
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 07:11:08 -0400, George M. Middius
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Schizoid Man said:
>>
>>> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>>
>>> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above assertion.
>>
>>Oh take a pill already.
>>
>>I was talking to Plowborg. Imagine a non-psychotic Krooborg. See what I
>>mean?
>>
>>
> Q. Why is American beer like making love in a punt?

A. You wouldn't know what to do even if you had the opportunity!

Cheers,

Margaret

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 06:24 PM

"Briel" > wrote in message

> While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American beers,
> there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has created
> a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country outside of
> Belgium.
>
> There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
> nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
> Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.

You might be surprised to learn that America is not the only country where
micro-breweries proliferate local communities. I have had the good fortune
of sampling some astonishingly good local brews in places like India, Peru,
Zambia and Uzbekistan.

However, in my opinion, only the Netherlands matches America's record at
making diluted horse **** concoctions commerically successful (Heineken,
Amstel, Coors, Miller, Budweiser).

Belgium notwithstanding, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Britain, Ireland all
offer some fantastic beers.

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 06:32 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> I'd say that the US far surpasses the UK interms of variety though.
> You can get anything from hefeweissen to IPAs. Every world style is
> covered somewhere in pretty large quanties in the US. It's hard to
> make that case for the UK. Still, the UK has some of what I would call
> "ultimate" versions of certain styles like brown ale and stout. It's
> hard to beat Samuel Smith and Guinness, two brands that are available
> (if not nearly as good, especially Guinness) here in the US.

Actually, what I really miss is Caffrey's. It's a fairly common beer in
England and I have never seen it here.

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 06:51 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:35:52 GMT, (Don Pearce)
> wrote:
>
> >>There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
> >>nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
> >>Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.
> >
> >I don't think Belgium beats the UK for variety.
>
> Probably not. But they still produce what I think are the two
ultimate
> beers, the Lambic and the Trappist ale.
>
> I'd say that the US far surpasses the UK interms of variety though.
> You can get anything from hefeweissen to IPAs. Every world style is
> covered somewhere in pretty large quanties in the US. It's hard to
> make that case for the UK. Still, the UK has some of what I would
call
> "ultimate" versions of certain styles like brown ale and stout. It's
> hard to beat Samuel Smith and Guinness, two brands that are available
> (if not nearly as good, especially Guinness) here in the US.

I used to love Guinness. Now that new carbonated bomb stuff tastes
like ****. Sam Adams Stout is far more palatable IMO.

ScottW

Joseph Oberlander

May 23rd 05, 07:04 PM

ScottW wrote:

> I used to love Guinness. Now that new carbonated bomb stuff tastes
> like ****. Sam Adams Stout is far more palatable IMO.
>
> ScottW

Don't feel too bad. The real stuff is still only sold in Europe.
And, yes, real Guinness at a pub is like nothing they sell over
here.

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 07:07 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:19:22 GMT, Briel > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
says...
> >>
> >> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> >> >
> >> > Nath said:
> >> >
> >> >> > Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
> >> >
> >> >> At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at
it...
> >> >
> >> > American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
> >>
> >> George, please tell me you were high when you made the above
assertion.
> >
> >While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American
beers,
> >there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has
created
> >a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country
outside of
> >Belgium.
> >
> >There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
> >nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
> >Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.
>
> First of all, ale IS beer.
>
> Second of all, I would say that many American beers are now AMONG the
> best in the world. There are planty of really fine beers being
> produced here. Still, subject to the fact that this is opinion, the
> most sterling examples of the different styles still reside in other
> countries for the most part. Steam beer would be the only
> counter-example that I can think of.
>
> However, the beer industry in the US has come light years in the past
> two decades. With beers like Sierra Nevada and Anchor Steam, it's
been
> shown that America can mass-produce beers of world class quality.

Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and after
3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink Killians
Red than Sierra Nevada.

Stone Brewery's Arrogant ******* Ale has more flavor, doesn't taste
like crap after a couple and isn't an instant headache. Newcastle is
unusually smooth for an ale which I admire but certainly won't impress
in the sip and taste contests.

> And,
> as noted, there is a multitude of micro-breweries that offer world
> class product that produce smaller quantities of great beer. We
> probably have the most vibrant and adventurous beer industry in the
> world at the moment. Yet, the shelves are FULL of mediocre beer just
> waiting to be quaffed by uneducated US consumers.
>
> In my humble town of Nashville, there are FIVE microbreweries that
> offer fresh beer in a multitude of styles, brewed right on the
> premises and pumped directly from the holding tanks into the glass.

Couldn't count 'em in San Diego. There are pizza parlors out here
brewing their own. The county fair has a major home brew contest with
hundreds of entries.
I think there are at least 5 home brew hobby centers around town.

> One of them even offers a daily selection of cask-conditioned
> British-style ale served at an approriate cellar temperature. They
> produce only a pony keg a day and when it's gone it's gone (it
usually
> only lasts about 2 hours max). That particular brewery is one of only
> a handful of breweries in the world that produced the old German
style
> stone beer. It's always available in sufficient quantites to be
> offered as a standard menu item.

Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
micro brewed.

ScottW

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 07:40 PM

On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

> Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and after
>3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
>head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
>frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink Killians
>Red than Sierra Nevada.

Well, that's your opinion. I happen to like their Pale Ale. A lot.
It's got just the right amount of hops for a Pale Ale.

I've never drunk their Oktoberfest.

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 07:45 PM

On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

> Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
>like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
>am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
>micro brewed.

Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law but
has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care. Some
companies like Sam Adams abuse the term. But I disagree about not
being able to buy their (microbrews) product in the store. To me, it's
more about the care taken in the brewing process. And there are plenty
of "small" breweries like Flying Dog and Abita that have a fairly wide
spread of distribution but still offer a fine, wellmade, almost craft
beer product.

BTW, San Diego is a pretty large place so it's no wonder that they
have a lot of microbrews. I'll say this though, from reading about the
city on wait peoples' sites, it's a horrible restaurant town full of
undertipping guests. Most wait people don't like working there. I've
read quite a few disses of the place.

MINe 109

May 23rd 05, 08:12 PM

In article >,
dave weil > wrote:

> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
> >like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
> >am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
> >micro brewed.
>
> Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law but
> has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care. Some
> companies like Sam Adams abuse the term. But I disagree about not
> being able to buy their (microbrews) product in the store. To me, it's
> more about the care taken in the brewing process. And there are plenty
> of "small" breweries like Flying Dog and Abita that have a fairly wide
> spread of distribution but still offer a fine, wellmade, almost craft
> beer product.
>
> BTW, San Diego is a pretty large place so it's no wonder that they
> have a lot of microbrews. I'll say this though, from reading about the
> city on wait peoples' sites, it's a horrible restaurant town full of
> undertipping guests. Most wait people don't like working there. I've
> read quite a few disses of the place.

Tourists, retired, military, retired military. I guess it could be a
problem!

Stephen

MINe 109

May 23rd 05, 08:23 PM

In article >,
dave weil > wrote:

> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and after
> >3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
> >head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
> >frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink Killians
> >Red than Sierra Nevada.
>
> Well, that's your opinion. I happen to like their Pale Ale. A lot.
> It's got just the right amount of hops for a Pale Ale.

I like the Pale Ale, and the Porter, too.

> I've never drunk their Oktoberfest.

I've never heard of it, but some dude at beeradvocate.com doesn't seem
to like it: "Astringent."

Better to wait for the Celebration Ale.

Stephen

Lionel

May 23rd 05, 08:51 PM

In >, MINe 109 wrote :

> In article >,
> dave weil > wrote:
>
>> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>> > Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
>> >like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
>> >am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
>> >micro brewed.
>>
>> Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law but
>> has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care. Some
>> companies like Sam Adams abuse the term. But I disagree about not
>> being able to buy their (microbrews) product in the store. To me, it's
>> more about the care taken in the brewing process. And there are plenty
>> of "small" breweries like Flying Dog and Abita that have a fairly wide
>> spread of distribution but still offer a fine, wellmade, almost craft
>> beer product.

LOL, this remember me an old discussion about French beers...
More than 2000 beweries and microbreweries here. This means that if you like
the good things and that if you take the time... You can find very good
beers just as discribed above.

>> BTW, San Diego is a pretty large place so it's no wonder that they
>> have a lot of microbrews. I'll say this though, from reading about the
>> city on wait peoples' sites, it's a horrible restaurant town full of
>> undertipping guests. Most wait people don't like working there. I've
>> read quite a few disses of the place.
>
> Tourists, retired, military, retired military. I guess it could be a
> problem!

Say that to Sackman he would perhaps understand because Frenchs are "rude"
sometime.

Lionel

May 23rd 05, 08:53 PM

In >, Lionel wrote :

> In >, MINe 109 wrote
> :
>
>> In article >,
>> dave weil > wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>>>
>>> > Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
>>> >like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
>>> >am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
>>> >micro brewed.
>>>
>>> Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law but
>>> has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care. Some
>>> companies like Sam Adams abuse the term. But I disagree about not
>>> being able to buy their (microbrews) product in the store. To me, it's
>>> more about the care taken in the brewing process. And there are plenty
>>> of "small" breweries like Flying Dog and Abita that have a fairly wide
>>> spread of distribution but still offer a fine, wellmade, almost craft
>>> beer product.
>
>
> LOL, this remember me an old discussion about French beers...
> More than 2000 beweries and microbreweries here. This means that if you
> like the good things and that if you take the time... You can find very
> good beers just as discribed above.
>
>
>>> BTW, San Diego is a pretty large place so it's no wonder that they
>>> have a lot of microbrews. I'll say this though, from reading about the
>>> city on wait peoples' sites, it's a horrible restaurant town full of
>>> undertipping guests. Most wait people don't like working there. I've
>>> read quite a few disses of the place.
>>
>> Tourists, retired, military, retired military. I guess it could be a
>> problem!
>
> Say that to Sackman, he would perhaps understand why Frenchs are "rude"
> sometime.

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 09:41 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
> >like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far
as I
> >am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
> >micro brewed.
>
> Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law
but
> has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care. Some
> companies like Sam Adams abuse the term. But I disagree about not
> being able to buy their (microbrews) product in the store. To me,
it's
> more about the care taken in the brewing process. And there are
plenty
> of "small" breweries like Flying Dog and Abita that have a fairly
wide
> spread of distribution but still offer a fine, wellmade, almost craft
> beer product.
>
> BTW, San Diego is a pretty large place so it's no wonder that they
> have a lot of microbrews. I'll say this though, from reading about
the
> city on wait peoples' sites, it's a horrible restaurant town full of
> undertipping guests.

Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!

Tourist town. I thought the service in the SD tourist districts was
crap when I first moved here too. I guess people from all over the
country agree with me. Amzed me they could be so bad and still have
lines waiting. Too much demand = poor service I guess.

> Most wait people don't like working there. I've
> read quite a few disses of the place.

Why don't you tell 'em what you pull down in Nashville? I'm sure
that would that would shut them up.

ScottW

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 10:02 PM

On 23 May 2005 13:41:29 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

> Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!

Well, it's your town. I'm sorry that you suffer horrible restaurants.

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 10:09 PM

MINe 109 wrote:
> In article >,
> dave weil > wrote:
>
> > On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:
> >
> > > Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and
after
> > >3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
> > >head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
> > >frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink
Killians
> > >Red than Sierra Nevada.
> >
> > Well, that's your opinion. I happen to like their Pale Ale. A lot.
> > It's got just the right amount of hops for a Pale Ale.
>
> I like the Pale Ale, and the Porter, too.

I'll have to try the Porter. The Pale Ale has gotten so popular the
last few parties I went to had kegs of it... noticed everyone quit
drinking beer pretty early. The women mostly hated it and made a
tequila run, once the blender was running and the shots flowing the keg
lost attention. I know its nothing special but I've grown to like Sam
Adams Stout.. Its consistently pleasant, but not the cream though,
yuch.

This thing looks like fun
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/wbf/index.html

ScottW

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 10:21 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On 23 May 2005 13:41:29 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!
>
> Well, it's your town. I'm sorry that you suffer horrible restaurants.

It's a big town as you said, there are plenty of great places if you
have the time to find them. Come to think of it.. my favorite places
are family owned and operated. I doubt they do much posting on
waiters boards.

So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they can
do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled labor
into the heartland.

ScottW

MINe 109

May 23rd 05, 10:26 PM

In article . com>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article >,
> > dave weil > wrote:
> >
> > > On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and
> after
> > > >3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
> > > >head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
> > > >frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink
> Killians
> > > >Red than Sierra Nevada.
> > >
> > > Well, that's your opinion. I happen to like their Pale Ale. A lot.
> > > It's got just the right amount of hops for a Pale Ale.
> >
> > I like the Pale Ale, and the Porter, too.
>
> I'll have to try the Porter. The Pale Ale has gotten so popular the
> last few parties I went to had kegs of it... noticed everyone quit
> drinking beer pretty early. The women mostly hated it and made a
> tequila run, once the blender was running and the shots flowing the keg
> lost attention. I know its nothing special but I've grown to like Sam
> Adams Stout.. Its consistently pleasant, but not the cream though,
> yuch.

Blender drinks are the natural enemy of good beer.

> This thing looks like fun
> http://www.allaboutbeer.com/wbf/index.html

I just missed this local event:

http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/

Stephen

dave weil

May 23rd 05, 10:34 PM

On 23 May 2005 14:21:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>
>dave weil wrote:
>> On 23 May 2005 13:41:29 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>> > Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!
>>
>> Well, it's your town. I'm sorry that you suffer horrible restaurants.
>
> It's a big town as you said, there are plenty of great places if you
>have the time to find them.

Glad you got out of the tourist area, which is where you were hanging
out right after you moved there. It's the opposite of what I would do
if I just moved to a new place, but there ya go. You're more of the
pedestrian type.

>Come to think of it.. my favorite places
>are family owned and operated. I doubt they do much posting on
>waiters boards.

Well, nobody talked about working in chains.

> So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they can
>do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled labor
>into the heartland.

No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my good
fortune over them.

Schizoid Man

May 23rd 05, 10:39 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

>> So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they can
>>do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled labor
>>into the heartland.
>
> No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my good
> fortune over them.

Dave,

You're not really comparing Nashville and San Diego are you? Please don't.

George M. Middius

May 23rd 05, 10:54 PM

Joseph O'Blather said:

> And, yes, real Guinness at a pub is like nothing they sell over
> here.

Where are the DBTs?

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 11:25 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On 23 May 2005 14:21:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> >
> >dave weil wrote:
> >> On 23 May 2005 13:41:29 -0700, "ScottW" >
wrote:
> >>
> >> > Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!
> >>
> >> Well, it's your town. I'm sorry that you suffer horrible
restaurants.
> >
> > It's a big town as you said, there are plenty of great places if
you
> >have the time to find them.
>
> Glad you got out of the tourist area, which is where you were hanging
> out right after you moved there. It's the opposite of what I would do
> if I just moved to a new place, but there ya go. You're more of the
> pedestrian type.

When I moved to SD, the company that was hiring me put me up in a
resort hotel for 3 months while I made housing arrangements. It
happened to be a nice little suite with a kitchen right across the
street from the bluff above the beach. Beautiful ocean view from the
patio. I guess you can consider that pedestrian... walking out my door
to the beach :).

>
> >Come to think of it.. my favorite places
> >are family owned and operated. I doubt they do much posting on
> >waiters boards.
>
> Well, nobody talked about working in chains.
>
> > So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they
can
> >do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled
labor
> >into the heartland.
>
> No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my
good
> fortune over them.

I don't think revealing your annual compensation would disqualify you
from commiserating with these disgruntled waiters. Might actually make
them feel better about their situation.

ScottW

Mr. Anderson

May 23rd 05, 11:42 PM

Fort Collins produces some nice beer. Our two largest breweries are
New Belgium and Odells. NB Fat Tire is probably the most popular beer
in town and definitely worth a try. They distribute it everywhere. I
don't know whether it's considered a pale or an amber. It doesn't have
much toast flavor. Odells has a new pale called 5 Barrel which is
extremely hoppy. I'm a big fan. I don't think Odells is as widely
distributed, but look for it if you like hoppy.

ScottW

May 23rd 05, 11:43 PM

MINe 109 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> >
> > I'll have to try the Porter. The Pale Ale has gotten so popular
the
> > last few parties I went to had kegs of it... noticed everyone quit
> > drinking beer pretty early. The women mostly hated it and made a
> > tequila run, once the blender was running and the shots flowing the
keg
> > lost attention. I know its nothing special but I've grown to like
Sam
> > Adams Stout.. Its consistently pleasant, but not the cream though,
> > yuch.
>
> Blender drinks are the natural enemy of good beer.

:)

>
> > This thing looks like fun
> > http://www.allaboutbeer.com/wbf/index.html
>
> I just missed this local event:
>
> http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/

Looks like fun. A guy I work with is a big time home brewer. He had a
party to choose his best brews for entry into the county fair last
summer. He had a couple different porters, a brown ale, and a stout.
At least 2 batches of each to choose from. Great party:) We tallied
the votes and he entered the winners under his name. The beers that
didn't get the nod were entered under his wifes name. One beer got a
ribbon, 3rd place. It was the porter I preferred that was entered by
his wife :).

ScottW

Schizoid Man

May 24th 05, 12:36 AM

"MINe 109" > wrote in message

> I just missed this local event:
>
> http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/

Stephen,

A couple of cool things that I checked out when I was a grad student at UT
was Bocktoberfest in Shiner and Wurstfest in New Braunfels. Both were great
fun. Great wurst, great beer.

George M. Middius

May 24th 05, 01:06 AM

Signal said:

> >> American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>
> That's a rare statement. Most American beer tastes like watered down
> gnats ****. Maybe "the UK" isn't famil. with the beers and ales of
> which you speak... what do you recommend?

Are you hopping the pond? Ask for what to get in the area you're visiting.
Around here, Foggy Bottom, Old Dominion, and the aforementioned Wild Goose
are widely available. Those are regional brewers though, so they're likely
not available everywhere. We also have some brewpubs in Virginia and maybe
one in Maryland.

> >Sorry Guy but for my personnal taste American beer and Ale are far far
> >far from being the best in the world. It might be the best in the world
> >for an American.
>
> Good for washing down Mackie D's... probably ;-)

Seriously, some American brews do rank with the best. Even Samuel Adams,
company that's far exceeded its "micro" roots, has put out some excellent
craft brews at times.

You probably won't find superior microbrews at a bar in a chain hotel.

MINe 109

May 24th 05, 01:19 AM

In article >,
"Schizoid Man" > wrote:

> "MINe 109" > wrote in message
>
> > I just missed this local event:
> >
> > http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/
>
> Stephen,
>
> A couple of cool things that I checked out when I was a grad student at UT
> was Bocktoberfest in Shiner and Wurstfest in New Braunfels. Both were great
> fun. Great wurst, great beer.

Yeah, there's a lot of German and Czech local flavor I miss out on. I
had more time on my hands this spring and found stuff like free wine
tasting at UT where I first heard the phrase "cat-pee on gooseberries."

Stephen

Briel

May 24th 05, 02:18 AM

In article >,
says...

[..]

> Even Sluttie has acknowledged the flowering of the microbrewery industry. I was
> indulging in hyperbole originally, but on reflection, I'd say there are some
> American beers that are unsurpassed anywhere in the world. Not necessarily
> pilsners -- Belgium can keep the crown for them.

Actually, I'd give that crown to the Czech Republic. Having just
travelled there, I found that they really know how to brew a pils! They
do some stunning dark lagers, too. But Belgium has given us Wit Bier,
Lambic, all the Trappist styles...

> Around here, one of the leading regionals is Wild Goose. Their IPA is to die for.

Ah, I can't get Wild Goose where I live, but I did have the pleasure of
trying several of their brews a few years ago - phenomenal!

--
Bill

Briel

May 24th 05, 02:26 AM

In article >, says...

> You might be surprised to learn that America is not the only country where
> micro-breweries proliferate local communities.

Given how much I travel I wouldn't be at all surprised ;-)

> I have had the good fortune
> of sampling some astonishingly good local brews in places like India, Peru,
> Zambia and Uzbekistan.
>
> However, in my opinion, only the Netherlands matches America's record at
> making diluted horse **** concoctions commerically successful (Heineken,
> Amstel, Coors, Miller, Budweiser).

Well, I'd say almost every country has a similar mainstream beer or two
- you can get plently of that bland fizzy beer the UK, in Belgium, and
certainly in the countries you mention above. Let's face it - those
beers sell.

>
> Belgium notwithstanding, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Britain, Ireland all
> offer some fantastic beers.

Well, I like your list, though I found Ireland to be decent but somewhat
limited in its beer offerings. I recently returned from the Czech
Republic, and I'd definitely add that country to top beer destinations
of the world.

fwiw, I'm not American, nor do I live in the US, but I really do find
the beer offerings superb in many places that I visit there.

--
Bill

Briel

May 24th 05, 02:35 AM

In article >, =20
says...
> "Jocelyn Major" emitted :
>=20
> >> American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>=20
> That's a rare statement. Most American beer tastes like watered down
> gnats ****. Maybe "the UK" isn't famil. with the beers and ales of
> which you speak... what do you recommend?

If you can, check out the Great British Beer Festival in Olympia,=20
London. I've worked at it a couple of times, and it's a fantastic beer=20
festival which includes approx 700 real ales. What's that got to do with=20
American beers you ask?=20

Well, at the Bi=E8res Sans Fronti=E8res bar, a decent number of American=20
micros and craft beers are featured. There are usually some absolute=20
gems there.

I don't actually know what gets sent over to the UK - I thought I heard=20
that some Rogue beers were making the trip. If so, they are highly=20
recommended.

--=20
Bill

dave weil

May 24th 05, 06:58 AM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 14:39:36 -0700, "Schizoid Man" >
wrote:

>
>"dave weil" > wrote in message
>
>>> So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they can
>>>do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled labor
>>>into the heartland.
>>
>> No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my good
>> fortune over them.
>
>Dave,
>
>You're not really comparing Nashville and San Diego are you? Please don't.

Yes. and quite favorably.

dave weil

May 24th 05, 07:07 AM

On 23 May 2005 15:25:20 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>
>dave weil wrote:
>> On 23 May 2005 14:21:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >dave weil wrote:
>> >> On 23 May 2005 13:41:29 -0700, "ScottW" >
>wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Horrible restaurants getting undertipped. Oh the horror!
>> >>
>> >> Well, it's your town. I'm sorry that you suffer horrible
>restaurants.
>> >
>> > It's a big town as you said, there are plenty of great places if
>you
>> >have the time to find them.
>>
>> Glad you got out of the tourist area, which is where you were hanging
>> out right after you moved there. It's the opposite of what I would do
>> if I just moved to a new place, but there ya go. You're more of the
>> pedestrian type.
>
> When I moved to SD, the company that was hiring me put me up in a
>resort hotel for 3 months while I made housing arrangements. It
>happened to be a nice little suite with a kitchen right across the
>street from the bluff above the beach.

How cute for you.

A "resort hotel" isn't my idea of paradise, if you get my drift.

>Beautiful ocean view from the
>patio. I guess you can consider that pedestrian... walking out my door
>to the beach :).

I'm not really much on the beach, so no it doesn't do a lot for me.
Plus, I like seasons. I also don't like most beach areas. Too toursity
for me. If I were going to live on the ocean in the states, it would
probably be in Oregon, or Washington State or Maine. It certainly
wouldn't be in SoCal.

>> >Come to think of it.. my favorite places
>> >are family owned and operated. I doubt they do much posting on
>> >waiters boards.
>>
>> Well, nobody talked about working in chains.
>>
>> > So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they
>can
>> >do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled
>labor
>> >into the heartland.
>>
>> No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my
>good
>> fortune over them.
>
> I don't think revealing your annual compensation would disqualify you
>from commiserating with these disgruntled waiters. Might actually make
>them feel better about their situation.

Frankly, my making $40 grand a year here is far better than them
making their $50k (if they even make THAT), since I can actually buy
scads of nice houses for under a hundred grand. Since you guys have to
spend $300,000 for a starter house, I think that puts me way ahead.
Plus, it takes me 8 minutes to get to work. Or downtown. Or out in the
country. Of course, it takes me 20 minutes to get to the airport. That
sucks.

dave weil

May 24th 05, 07:21 AM

On 23 May 2005 15:43:07 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>
>MINe 109 wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> >
>> > I'll have to try the Porter. The Pale Ale has gotten so popular
>the
>> > last few parties I went to had kegs of it... noticed everyone quit
>> > drinking beer pretty early. The women mostly hated it and made a
>> > tequila run, once the blender was running and the shots flowing the
>keg
>> > lost attention. I know its nothing special but I've grown to like
>Sam
>> > Adams Stout.. Its consistently pleasant, but not the cream though,
>> > yuch.
>>
>> Blender drinks are the natural enemy of good beer.
>
> :)
>
>>
>> > This thing looks like fun
>> > http://www.allaboutbeer.com/wbf/index.html
>>
>> I just missed this local event:
>>
>> http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/
>
>Looks like fun. A guy I work with is a big time home brewer. He had a
>party to choose his best brews for entry into the county fair last
>summer. He had a couple different porters, a brown ale, and a stout.
>At least 2 batches of each to choose from. Great party:) We tallied
>the votes and he entered the winners under his name. The beers that
>didn't get the nod were entered under his wifes name. One beer got a
>ribbon, 3rd place. It was the porter I preferred that was entered by
>his wife :).
>
> ScottW

My friend is one of the best known national beer judges in the country
and the guy who revived stone beer, which had never been commercially
brewed in this country and was only brewed by one German brewer prior
to his revival of the style. He's won quite a few national medals for
his beers.

Oh yeah, I managed his brewpub for 4 years, so I know a little bit
about beer. Just a little $2mil a year place.

Joseph Oberlander

May 24th 05, 08:03 AM

ScottW wrote:

> Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and after
> 3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
> head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
> frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink Killians
> Red than Sierra Nevada.

Damn that *is* desperate. Killians is pretty vile stuff.
Me, I think the best U.S. pseudo-microbrew is from a small
company in CA. Called Anchor(not Anchor Steam - totally
different company).

Still not half as good as beer from Australia, which
should tell you a lot. Well, there are 1-2 good Australian
beers, but they are nearly impossible to get in the U.S.

> Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
> like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
> am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
> micro brewed.

Exactly.

Joseph Oberlander

May 24th 05, 08:14 AM

dave weil wrote:

> On 23 May 2005 11:07:36 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>
>>Microbrewery has lost some meaning. Stone Brewery and Karl Strauss
>>like to call themselves micro while brewing a lot of beer. As far as I
>>am concerned, if you can buy a 6 pack of it in the store... it ain't
>>micro brewed.
>
>
> Microbrew has a certain technical meaning which isn't bound by law but
> has a pretty common shared expectation among those who care.

Hey! Just like audio! Whatever crap you can get away with
among the anal believers. Too bad 95% of it isn't the
real thing. Hey! Just like audio!

I knew this related to audio somehow.

Lionel

May 24th 05, 01:29 PM

In >, dave weil wrote :

> On 23 May 2005 15:43:07 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
>>
>>MINe 109 wrote:
>>> In article . com>,
>>> >
>>> > I'll have to try the Porter. The Pale Ale has gotten so popular
>>the
>>> > last few parties I went to had kegs of it... noticed everyone quit
>>> > drinking beer pretty early. The women mostly hated it and made a
>>> > tequila run, once the blender was running and the shots flowing the
>>keg
>>> > lost attention. I know its nothing special but I've grown to like
>>Sam
>>> > Adams Stout.. Its consistently pleasant, but not the cream though,
>>> > yuch.
>>>
>>> Blender drinks are the natural enemy of good beer.
>>
>> :)
>>
>>>
>>> > This thing looks like fun
>>> > http://www.allaboutbeer.com/wbf/index.html
>>>
>>> I just missed this local event:
>>>
>>> http://www.txbrewersfestival.com/
>>
>>Looks like fun. A guy I work with is a big time home brewer. He had a
>>party to choose his best brews for entry into the county fair last
>>summer. He had a couple different porters, a brown ale, and a stout.
>>At least 2 batches of each to choose from. Great party:) We tallied
>>the votes and he entered the winners under his name. The beers that
>>didn't get the nod were entered under his wifes name. One beer got a
>>ribbon, 3rd place. It was the porter I preferred that was entered by
>>his wife :).
>>
>> ScottW
>
> My friend is one of the best known national beer judges in the country
> and the guy who revived stone beer, which had never been commercially
> brewed in this country and was only brewed by one German brewer prior
> to his revival of the style. He's won quite a few national medals for
> his beers.
>
> Oh yeah, I managed his brewpub for 4 years, so I know a little bit
> about beer. Just a little $2mil a year place.

Beer is cooking only.
The main ingredient that you need is some *good* water.
The rest is only a question of imagination and experimentation.
It is not surprising that in every countries with available sane clear water
you can find good and very good beers.

dave weil

May 24th 05, 02:36 PM

On Tue, 24 May 2005 14:29:57 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>Beer is cooking only.

And wine is even easier. No cooking needed.

>The main ingredient that you need is some *good* water.

You don't even need that for wine. You just need some grapes. They can
even be "spoiled".

Actually, that was incorrect for beer. You need water, malt and yeast.
All are equally "main" ingredients. If any of the three is
substandard, the beer will be substandard.

>The rest is only a question of imagination and experimentation.
>It is not surprising that in every countries with available sane clear water
>you can find good and very good beers.

Same with every hemisphere and wine.

George Middius

May 24th 05, 03:03 PM

Joseph O'Blather said:

> the anal believers

Finally, Harold has achieved a convert.

Lionel

May 24th 05, 03:40 PM

In >, dave weil wrote :

> On Tue, 24 May 2005 14:29:57 +0200, Lionel >
> wrote:
>
>>Beer is cooking only.
>
> And wine is even easier. No cooking needed.

Why do you speak about wine ?
Where did I wrote that cooking is easy ? You seem to be a little bit
confused, Dave. Abuse of beer ?

>>The main ingredient that you need is some *good* water.
>
> You don't even need that for wine. You just need some grapes. They can
> even be "spoiled".

Have you seen a lot of vineyard in Ireland or in Norway ?
Why this comparison with wine again ?

> Actually, that was incorrect for beer. You need water, malt and yeast.
> All are equally "main" ingredients. If any of the three is
> substandard, the beer will be substandard.

Did I wrote something about substandard or do YOU want to read something
about substandard ?
Did I established any comparison with wine or did YOU want to read a
possible comparison with wine ?

Seems to me that you are trying to establish a kind of qualitative
comparison between wine and beer. If this is the case let me tell you that
you risk to make an ass of yourself and moreover that you aren't doing the
best job for you... ;-)

>>The rest is only a question of imagination and experimentation.
>>It is not surprising that in every countries with available sane clear
>>water you can find good and very good beers.
>
> Same with every hemisphere and wine.

Why do you speak about wine again ?
You sound like a guy who imperatively needs something to say, like if you
want to exprime a kind of frustration ? What's wrong with you Dave ?

Beer is cooking. Everywhere you can find a good cook and good water you can
find a good beer...

Wine is an other speciality which needs different attention, different
knowledge...
Since your insistance proves that you are craving for THE inane comparison
the only thing I will accept to write you is that I prefer to drink a good
beer than a bad wine and a good wine than a bad beer... The rest will be
your responsability, your fantasy...

....As usual. :-D

Arny Krueger

May 24th 05, 03:57 PM

"George Middius" > wrote in
message ...
> Joseph O'Blather said:
>
> > the anal believers
>
> Finally, Harold has achieved a convert.

Yet another sad case of Middius externalizating his fecal
obsession.

dave weil

May 24th 05, 04:08 PM

On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:40:51 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>In >, dave weil wrote :
>
>> On Tue, 24 May 2005 14:29:57 +0200, Lionel >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Beer is cooking only.
>>
>> And wine is even easier. No cooking needed.
>
>
>Why do you speak about wine ?
>Where did I wrote that cooking is easy ? You seem to be a little bit
>confused, Dave. Abuse of beer ?

A little defensive this afternoon, eh?

"Cooking only" implies that there's not much to it.

>>>The main ingredient that you need is some *good* water.
>>
>> You don't even need that for wine. You just need some grapes. They can
>> even be "spoiled".
>
>
>Have you seen a lot of vineyard in Ireland or in Norway ?

Did I say that there was?

Jave you seen a lot of great beers in Fiji? They have a lot of great
water there, ya know.

>Why this comparison with wine again ?

Because you make wine such a big deal and it's no bigger deal than
beer. It's just a refreshing drink that takes a lot of skill to
produce from raw ingredients.

>> Actually, that was incorrect for beer. You need water, malt and yeast.
>> All are equally "main" ingredients. If any of the three is
>> substandard, the beer will be substandard.
>
>Did I wrote something about substandard or do YOU want to read something
>about substandard ?

No, you implied that water was the main thing and that good water was
all you really needed. Your comment displays your ignorance about
beer.

>Did I established any comparison with wine or did YOU want to read a
>possible comparison with wine ?

There IS a comparison with wine. There are many more similarities than
differences.

>Seems to me that you are trying to establish a kind of qualitative
>comparison between wine and beer. If this is the case let me tell you that
>you risk to make an ass of yourself and moreover that you aren't doing the
>best job for you... ;-)

I can't help it if you're a wine snob. A great beer is like a great
wine. Your dismissal of beer is your own issue, not mine.

>>>The rest is only a question of imagination and experimentation.
>>>It is not surprising that in every countries with available sane clear
>>>water you can find good and very good beers.
>>
>> Same with every hemisphere and wine.
>
>Why do you speak about wine again ?
>You sound like a guy who imperatively needs something to say, like if you
>want to exprime a kind of frustration ? What's wrong with you Dave ?

I was simply responding to your backhanded comments about beer using a
point of reference that you can understand. What's wrong with YOU?

>Beer is cooking. Everywhere you can find a good cook and good water you can
>find a good beer...

And anyone who can get a hold of decent grapes and yeast can make a
good wine. So what? You don't have to live next to a vineyard to make
wine.

>Wine is an other speciality which needs different attention, different
>knowledge...

Ahhh, the snobbery comes to the fore. It's just a different skill set,
that's all.

>Since your insistance proves that you are craving for THE inane comparison
>the only thing I will accept to write you is that I prefer to drink a good
>beer than a bad wine and a good wine than a bad beer... The rest will be
>your responsability, your fantasy...

Well, it's just "cooking" right? What's the big deal. On one side,
it's cooking. On the other side, it's just mashing, filtering and
storing. You don't even have to grow the grapes to make the product.

Sorry to have gotten you all worked up in the middle of a work day.

George Middius

May 24th 05, 04:14 PM

Mr. **** squats another potfull™ of Krooglish.

> externalizating

It just occurred to me that maybe you're the reason Lionella can't learn proper
human language. What else did you teach her, Arnii? ;-)

JC Martin

May 24th 05, 04:30 PM

ScottW wrote:
> dave weil wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:19:22 GMT, Briel > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article >,
>
> says...
>
>>>>"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>Nath said:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Still spending your dole on ale for the mates?
>>>>>
>>>>>>At least we have real beer, not your **** flavoured attempt at
>
> it...
>
>>>>>American beers and ales are now the best in the world.
>>>>
>>>>George, please tell me you were high when you made the above
>
> assertion.
>
>>>While I wouldn't go so far as George in his praise of American
>
> beers,
>
>>>there is no doubt that the craft brewing industry in the US has
>
> created
>
>>>a beer scene with more diversity and quality than any country
>
> outside of
>
>>>Belgium.
>>>
>>>There are certainly areas in the US that are beer wastelands with
>>>nothing available but Budmillorcoors, but visiting somewhere like
>>>Portland OR will quickly change your mind about American beers.
>>
>>First of all, ale IS beer.
>>
>>Second of all, I would say that many American beers are now AMONG the
>>best in the world. There are planty of really fine beers being
>>produced here. Still, subject to the fact that this is opinion, the
>>most sterling examples of the different styles still reside in other
>>countries for the most part. Steam beer would be the only
>>counter-example that I can think of.
>>
>>However, the beer industry in the US has come light years in the past
>>two decades. With beers like Sierra Nevada and Anchor Steam, it's
>
> been
>
>>shown that America can mass-produce beers of world class quality.
>
>
> Sierra Nevada is ****. Beer has to pass the aftertaste test and after
> 3 Sierras I'm wondering who puked in my mouth and kicked me in the
> head. My sister-in-law left a case of Sierra Oktoberfest Ale in my
> frig. I couldn't give that nasty crap away. I'd rather drink Killians
> Red than Sierra Nevada.

I've never even heard of Sierra putting out an Oktoberfest Ale, but
their top beers are Pale Ale, Celebration Ale and their summer Pilsner.
Their Amber is good, but certainly not the best in its category.
California ales are incredible. Breweries worth nothing are North
Coast, Anderson Valley and Russian River, who makes great Belgium style
ales as well. Anyone who thinks California isn't one of the finest ale
producers in the world just doesn't know ale, period.

-JC

Lionel

May 24th 05, 05:15 PM

dave weil a écrit :
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:40:51 +0200, Lionel >
> wrote:
>
>
>>In >, dave weil wrote :
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 24 May 2005 14:29:57 +0200, Lionel >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Beer is cooking only.
>>>
>>>And wine is even easier. No cooking needed.
>>
>>
>>Why do you speak about wine ?
>>Where did I wrote that cooking is easy ? You seem to be a little bit
>>confused, Dave. Abuse of beer ?
>
>
> A little defensive this afternoon, eh?
>
> "Cooking only" implies that there's not much to it.

This is what you want to read because you are suffering of
the Weil's complex.

In this case *only* isn't perjorative contrariwise for me
cooking is an *art*.
I am really *astonished* to be obliged to explain that to a
guy who is working for a restaurant and who is living of the
art of cooking.
What a strange "professional" you are Dave Weil. Any other
of your colleagues would have been flattered.

With beer no place for the chance it is cooking only. If you
have the good ingredient only skill and imagination (art)
make the difference.

I'm sorry that it is not your conception of the cooking
Dave... Perhaps you work for McDonald ? ;-)

>>>>The main ingredient that you need is some *good* water.
>>>
>>>You don't even need that for wine. You just need some grapes. They can
>>>even be "spoiled".
>>
>>
>>Have you seen a lot of vineyard in Ireland or in Norway ?
>
>
> Did I say that there was?

No but they have very good beer because they have good water
, good cook and good recipes.

> Jave you seen a lot of great beers in Fiji? They have a lot of great
> water there, ya know.

Fiji are a very good example : they were isolated from the
rest of the world during very long time. This explain that
the beer tradition (elaboration doesn't reach them.

>>Why this comparison with wine again ?
>
>
> Because you make wine such a big deal

Aaaah... The Weil's complex.
I like both wine and beer. For me a very good beer is as
prestigious as a very good wine.

> and it's no bigger deal than
> beer. It's just a refreshing drink that takes a lot of skill to
> produce from raw ingredients.

That's wrong beer need good water and a great chief do make
*the* good recipe.

>>>Actually, that was incorrect for beer. You need water, malt and yeast.
>>>All are equally "main" ingredients. If any of the three is
>>>substandard, the beer will be substandard.
>>
>>Did I wrote something about substandard or do YOU want to read something
>>about substandard ?
>
>
> No, you implied that water was the main thing and that good water was
> all you really needed. Your comment displays your ignorance about
> beer.

This is wrong I wrote that you need good water and a good
cook. The better is the cook, the better is the recipe, the
better is the beer.
This is what I wrote nothing else.

>>Did I established any comparison with wine or did YOU want to read a
>>possible comparison with wine ?
>
>
> There IS a comparison with wine. There are many more similarities than
> differences.

>>Seems to me that you are trying to establish a kind of qualitative
>>comparison between wine and beer. If this is the case let me tell you that
>>you risk to make an ass of yourself and moreover that you aren't doing the
>>best job for you... ;-)
>
>
> I can't help it if you're a wine snob. A great beer is like a great
> wine. Your dismissal of beer is your own issue, not mine.

Did I wrote that it is more difficult to make wine than beer ?
*NO* you have imagined it.
I can't help it if your Weil complex make you suffer so
much. ;-)

>>>>The rest is only a question of imagination and experimentation.
>>>>It is not surprising that in every countries with available sane clear
>>>>water you can find good and very good beers.
>>>
>>>Same with every hemisphere and wine.
>>
>>Why do you speak about wine again ?
>>You sound like a guy who imperatively needs something to say, like if you
>>want to exprime a kind of frustration ? What's wrong with you Dave ?
>
>
> I was simply responding to your backhanded comments about beer using a
> point of reference that you can understand. What's wrong with YOU?

>>Beer is cooking. Everywhere you can find a good cook and good water you can
>>find a good beer...
>
>
> And anyone who can get a hold of decent grapes and yeast can make a
> good wine. So what? You don't have to live next to a vineyard to make
> wine.

Did I say the contrary ?

>>Wine is an other speciality which needs different attention, different
>>knowledge...
>
>
> Ahhh, the snobbery comes to the fore. It's just a different skill set,
> that's all.

Ahhh, the Weil's complex is coming back....
No snobbery it's a different job a different knowledge a
different skill.
Did I wrote something else or dif you read something else ?

>>Since your insistance proves that you are craving for THE inane comparison
>>the only thing I will accept to write you is that I prefer to drink a good
>>beer than a bad wine and a good wine than a bad beer... The rest will be
>>your responsability, your fantasy...
>
>
> Well, it's just "cooking" right?

Yes but good cooking is surely more difficult than anything
else. So making a good beer is surely very difficult, at
least as difficult to make a good wine !

> What's the big deal. On one side,
> it's cooking. On the other side, it's just mashing, filtering and
> storing. You don't even have to grow the grapes to make the product.

Cooking is noble art, making wine is a noble art, making
beer is a noble art.
Did I wrote something else.

> Sorry to have gotten you all worked up in the middle of a work day.

I don't understand.

dave weil

May 24th 05, 05:41 PM

On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:15:43 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>> "Cooking only" implies that there's not much to it.
>
>This is what you want to read because you are suffering of
>the Weil's complex.
>
>In this case *only* isn't perjorative contrariwise for me
>cooking is an *art*.
>I am really *astonished* to be obliged to explain that to a
>guy who is working for a restaurant and who is living of the
>art of cooking.
>What a strange "professional" you are Dave Weil. Any other
>of your colleagues would have been flattered.

I'm willing to consider that this is simply your passing familiarity
with the English language. Using the word "only" in that context is
fairly dismissive.

ScottW

May 24th 05, 05:46 PM

dave weil wrote:
> >
> > I don't think revealing your annual compensation would disqualify
you
> >from commiserating with these disgruntled waiters. Might actually
make
> >them feel better about their situation.
>
> Frankly, my making $40 grand a year here is far better than them
> making their $50k (if they even make THAT),

$40K now.. wow... did you get a raise? Must be almost paying your
share of the federal budget. My kid was bussing last summer at a
pretty low end seafood place and he would have pulled in $25K full time
on his 15% of the tips share. Not bad for a part time summer job.. the
waiters and waitresses of course did better but most of them were
college kids. I don't think they were planning on making a career of
it.

> since I can actually buy
> scads of nice houses for under a hundred grand.

Really, if that is the case... why were you cramming those huge
Klipsch into your living room?

> Since you guys have to
> spend $300,000 for a starter house,

Last time we went over this you were claiming a trailer house was a
starter home. Anyway, now 300K might get you a condo. ASP for a
single family home was just about 500K in San Diego last month.

> I think that puts me way ahead.

Lot of folks use that 500K for retirement.. whats your plan? Oh yeah,
you're a social security dependent. I hope it works out for you.

> Plus, it takes me 8 minutes to get to work. Or downtown. Or out in
the
> country.

8 minutes to everywhere. I see Nashville is a rapidly growing
community.

Hey, I'm not going to knock living in hicksville... it definitely has
its perks. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you) hi-tech job
opportunities isn't something Nashville is known for. If it was, those
nice houses would be a lot nicer and a lot more expensive.

ScottW

dave weil

May 24th 05, 05:46 PM

On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:15:43 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>I don't understand.

That's nothing new.

Schizoid Man

May 24th 05, 05:55 PM

"JC Martin" > wrote in message

> I've never even heard of Sierra putting out an Oktoberfest Ale, but their
> top beers are Pale Ale, Celebration Ale and their summer Pilsner. Their
> Amber is good, but certainly not the best in its category. California ales
> are incredible. Breweries worth nothing are North Coast, Anderson Valley
> and Russian River, who makes great Belgium style ales as well. Anyone who
> thinks California isn't one of the finest ale producers in the world just
> doesn't know ale, period.

Agreed. Russian River is superb, Sierra is superb. Another cracking brewery
here in San Francisco is the Speakeasy.

George Middius

May 24th 05, 06:12 PM

Sluttie does Krooglish. How revolting.

>> "Cooking only" implies that there's not much to it.

>This is what you want to read because you are suffering of
>the Weil's complex.

Gibberish much? ;-)

Everybody with a brain™ agrees that your biggest flaw until now has been your
adoration of Arnii Krooborg. We accept that as an irrational, emotional
weakness. Everybody has such weaknesses; yours just happens to focus on an
individual whom most of us find revolting.

We don't so readily forgive your posturing about the use of English, however.
Your use of English is crude, fractured, erratic, and generally of abysmal
quality. You are practically the last RAO regular who should ever lecture about
the English language. Your command of it is so bad that your obvious forays to
online translation tools usually have comical results.

>In this case *only* isn't perjorative contrariwise for me
>cooking is an *art*.

Frankly, Slut, you don't know what you're talking about. You are completely
wrong, as you are about almost all of your attempts to "correct" others'
interpretations of your osterized babbling.

>I am really *astonished* to be obliged to explain that to a
>guy who is working for a restaurant and who is living of the
>art of cooking.

The only thing needing explanation is a way for you to express your thoughts
better in English.

>With beer no place for the chance it is cooking only.

This is nonsense. Did you try to translate a french idiom verbatim? "Avec la
biere il n'y a point de place pour la chance c'est seulement la cuisine." That's
word-for-word back to french. Does that make sense?

>> Because you make wine such a big deal

>I like both wine and beer. For me a very good beer is as
>prestigious as a very good wine.

That's gibberish, you know. "Prestigious" has no relevance to enjoying beer or
wine. Perhaps you meant "enjoyable" or "satisfying".

>That's wrong beer need good water and a great chief do make
>*the* good recipe.

More gibberish. Seeing you lecturing about English is like seeing the Krooborg
moaning about expensive audio gear.

>> No, you implied that water was the main thing and that good water was
>> all you really needed. Your comment displays your ignorance about
>> beer.

>This is wrong I wrote that you need good water and a good
>cook. The better is the cook, the better is the recipe, the
>better is the beer.
>This is what I wrote nothing else.

Nonetheless, in the context of the conversation, dave is correct about what you
implied.

Learn to read and write English better, why don't you.

>> Sorry to have gotten you all worked up in the middle of a work day.

>I don't understand.

You don't understand? That's probably because you're clueless. dave's comment is
an allusion to many of your own past comments. Essentially, he's pointing out
that you're an airhead and a hypocrite.

Bill

May 24th 05, 06:21 PM

On Mon, 23 May 2005 07:34:18 -0700, "Schizoid Man" >
wrote:

[ . . .]
>
>Isn't it a bit rich of you to say something like this after blowing (please
>do pardon the pun) your children's college fund on sexual tourism in
>Amsterdam?
>

The real trick is getting someone else to pay for the trip. It's easy
if you know how.

Bill

May 24th 05, 06:22 PM

dave weil

May 24th 05, 06:38 PM

On 24 May 2005 09:46:23 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>
>dave weil wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think revealing your annual compensation would disqualify
>you
>> >from commiserating with these disgruntled waiters. Might actually
>make
>> >them feel better about their situation.
>>
>> Frankly, my making $40 grand a year here is far better than them
>> making their $50k (if they even make THAT),
>
> $40K now.. wow... did you get a raise?

Actually I did.

>Must be almost paying your
>share of the federal budget. My kid was bussing last summer at a
>pretty low end seafood place and he would have pulled in $25K full time
>on his 15% of the tips share. Not bad for a part time summer job.. the
>waiters and waitresses of course did better but most of them were
>college kids.

Like I said, if they make $50K, then great, but let them try to buy a
house.

> I don't think they were planning on making a career of
>it.

That's a shame, because restaurants could use more career people.

>> since I can actually buy
>> scads of nice houses for under a hundred grand.
>
> Really, if that is the case... why were you cramming those huge
>Klipsch into your living room?

Because this is the house that I bought...for $49.5 BTW (now worth
about $75k). I didn't buy the house to put around a stereo system. Why
do YOU have YOUR listening room in a sub-optimal situation? Why?
Because you are working with what you have.

>> Since you guys have to
>> spend $300,000 for a starter house,
>
> Last time we went over this you were claiming a trailer house was a
>starter home. Anyway, now 300K might get you a condo. ASP for a
>single family home was just about 500K in San Diego last month.

Thank you for putting an exclamation point on MY point. I was being
generous. Here, $500,000 will buy you an acre, 3500 SF, a swimming
pool and all of the nice touches.

>> I think that puts me way ahead.
>
> Lot of folks use that 500K for retirement.. whats your plan? Oh yeah,
>you're a social security dependent. I hope it works out for you.

Yes, it probably will. My needs have always been pretty simple.
However, how are your waiters going to get that $500,000 into a house
in the first place?

>> Plus, it takes me 8 minutes to get to work. Or downtown. Or out in
>the
>> country.
>
>8 minutes to everywhere. I see Nashville is a rapidly growing
>community.

It is. I just don't like to live in the sprawling suburbs.

> Hey, I'm not going to knock living in hicksville... it definitely has
>its perks. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you) hi-tech job
>opportunities isn't something Nashville is known for.

No, it's just home to a huge medical and music industry. I know tht
it's not as "hi tech" as building cell phones, but what the hey? We
only build cars here and run hospitals across the country and do
significant medical research at Vanderbilt, a school that is
considered the equivalent of Ivy league. We also sell billions of
dollars of music. Frankly, it's a great place to live. Just ask folks
like Mark Knopfler, Cher, Peter Framton, Ben Folds, and countless
other musicians.

I'll stick to "hickville" as opposed to living in a rather souless
place like San Diego. I'll give you one thing though - you have a
great zoo. Probably the best in the country.

>If it was, those
>nice houses would be a lot nicer and a lot more expensive.

Oh, we have our share of those as well. Lots of million dollar
mansions that would cost upwards of $10,000,000 there in San Diego. In
fact, a community only 5 miles from where I live is one of the
wealthiest in the nation. Belle Meade's average income is $190,000.
About 18,000 people live there.

Finally, one of the great things about living here - no state income
tax. And a state with a surplus. I'm quite happy here for the moment.

Schizoid Man

May 24th 05, 07:00 PM

"dave weil" > wrote in message

> I'll stick to "hickville" as opposed to living in a rather souless
> place like San Diego. I'll give you one thing though - you have a
> great zoo. Probably the best in the country.

Compared to San Francisco, yes, San Diego is pretty dire. Typical suburban
sprawl.

>>If it was, those
>>nice houses would be a lot nicer and a lot more expensive.
>
> Oh, we have our share of those as well. Lots of million dollar
> mansions that would cost upwards of $10,000,000 there in San Diego. In
> fact, a community only 5 miles from where I live is one of the
> wealthiest in the nation. Belle Meade's average income is $190,000.
> About 18,000 people live there.

Even so, I don't think the best of Southern California compares what we have
up here. The Bay Area really is ridiculous. Forget places like Pacific
Heights or any of the trendy San Francisco neighborhoods, a cookie cutter
house out in the wilderness of Fremont (east of the city) or Mountain View
(south of the city) will set you back by at least $500,000.

It's even worse if you head up north into Marin, being the wealthiest county
in the country now.

> Finally, one of the great things about living here - no state income
> tax. And a state with a surplus. I'm quite happy here for the moment.

True. But then, we have Lake Tahoe in the winter, Monterey in the summer and
Napa Valley all year round, great weather and the beers in the nation.

Bill Riel

May 24th 05, 07:16 PM

In article >,
says...

> I don't think Belgium beats the UK for variety.

Well, I do - but I'm not knocking UK beers: Cask bitter is my favourite
beer style (and it's one that American brewers generally don't do well).
But you can go into a cafe in most towns in Belgium and select from
close to 300 beers! imo it's beer nirvana :-)

> There are even small
> bars in London's West End with their own brewery on site. They tend to
> specialize in bitter beers heavy in hops, toasted to their own recipe
> for a "house" flavour.

Well, what American brewers tend to do well is brew heavily hopped beers
- occasionally too heavily and out of balance, but when the balance is
right they are really superb.

But British brewers are the world's best at brewing low gravity (or
ordinary) bitters with astonishing complexity and balance for the
strength.

Cheers,

Bill

Lionel

May 24th 05, 07:27 PM

dave weil a écrit :
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:15:43 +0200, Lionel >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>"Cooking only" implies that there's not much to it.
>>
>>This is what you want to read because you are suffering of
>>the Weil's complex.
>>
>>In this case *only* isn't perjorative contrariwise for me
>>cooking is an *art*.
>>I am really *astonished* to be obliged to explain that to a
>>guy who is working for a restaurant and who is living of the
>>art of cooking.
>>What a strange "professional" you are Dave Weil. Any other
>>of your colleagues would have been flattered.
>
>
> I'm willing to consider that this is simply your passing familiarity
> with the English language.

LOL !

> Using the word "only" in that context is
> fairly dismissive.

Perhaps it could be confusing at the first reading but I
have noted that you have insisted in your strange attitude
even after my explanations. This tells a lot about THE real
motivations of *your* posts.

PS : considering my alleged "snobbery" about wine ask your
friend Middius how a guy who is promoting some Corbières
wines against the "overwhelming consensus of the wine
connoisseurs" can be snobbish...

:-D

Lionel

May 24th 05, 07:28 PM

dave weil a écrit :
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:15:43 +0200, Lionel >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't understand.
>
>
> That's nothing new.

:-D

Bill Riel

May 24th 05, 07:31 PM

In article >, dweil2
@bellsouth.net says...

> First of all, ale IS beer.

Of course...

>
> Second of all, I would say that many American beers are now AMONG the
> best in the world. There are planty of really fine beers being
> produced here. Still, subject to the fact that this is opinion, the
> most sterling examples of the different styles still reside in other
> countries for the most part. Steam beer would be the only
> counter-example that I can think of.

I'd largely agree with that - I just got back from the Czech Republic,
and the pilseners and dark lagers there were better than any American
versions that I've tried.

Likewise, I have yet to find American cask bitter as balanced as what I
find in the UK.

But you can find examples of virtually all styles of beer brewed
somewhere in the US today.

While not distinct styles per se, there are several "sub-styles" that
have evolved in the US and are fairly unique. APA (American Pale Ale)
has evolved from English pale ale, but is generally much hoppier and
always uses very distinct American hops (the signature American hop is
Cascade which has a very citrusy nose and flavour). I think APA is a
terrific beer style/

I also happen to think that US IPAs are the best in the world - some
English IPAs simply aren't hopped enough to warrant the title.

btw, In case you are interested in beer styles, a good source is the
beer judge certification org: http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.html

--
Bill

Lionel

May 24th 05, 07:36 PM

George "Betty Boop" Middius is playing the ambulance for his
friend Dave Weil.

Rather than a boring english lesson I would have loved to
read from you an other "overwhelming consensus of the
opinions of wine connoisseurs", eh "exclusive diet soda
drinker".

George Middius

May 24th 05, 08:02 PM

Ask, and ye shall receive.

>Rather than a boring english lesson I would have loved to
>read from you an[sic] other "overwhelming consensus of the
>opinions of wine connoisseurs", eh[sic] "exclusive diet soda
>drinker".[sic][sic][sic][sic]

Aside from your atrocious mangling of English, Slut, there is an overwhelming
consensus that you are an insincere troll who cares more about avenging the
injustices of fate than about improving your own circumstances.

Is this nice lady related to you?
http://tinyurl.com/99sfr

This must be your self-portrait:
http://tinyurl.com/bd5ah

How did you look before the surgery? Wait, here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/4oyqm

Lionel

May 24th 05, 09:17 PM

George "Drag Queen" Middius tired after a last "gay" parade.

http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/images/lists/work/203_3_lg.jpg

Nice tits George !... But you should have been careful to adulterated
hormones.

:-D

PS : don't forget to connect the perfusions before to go to bed.

Lionel

May 24th 05, 09:21 PM

In >, George Middius wrote :

> I am an insincere troll

Not all the time George !

;-)

ScottW

May 24th 05, 10:45 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On 24 May 2005 09:46:23 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> > $40K now.. wow... did you get a raise?
>
> Actually I did.

Congratulations.
>
> >Must be almost paying your
> >share of the federal budget. My kid was bussing last summer at a
> >pretty low end seafood place and he would have pulled in $25K full time
> >on his 15% of the tips share. Not bad for a part time summer job.. the
> >waiters and waitresses of course did better but most of them were
> >college kids.
>
> Like I said, if they make $50K, then great, but let them try to buy a
> house.

I am not disagreeing. It's very difficult for anyone in low wage, low
skilled fields to become a home owner out here.

>
> > I don't think they were planning on making a career of
> >it.
>
> That's a shame, because restaurants could use more career people.

At those wages? If they want people to make a career out of it,
don't you think they need to raise the base salary?

My kid quit his bussing job cuz the new owner decided to have just
one busser for 40+ tables. He couldn't finishing cleaning by 12 on
weeknights and that just didn't work with school. His boss told him
when he complained that he didn't have any problem finding a Mexican to
run his ass off all night. I guess he knew since he was a Mexican.

>
> >> since I can actually buy
> >> scads of nice houses for under a hundred grand.
> >
> > Really, if that is the case... why were you cramming those huge
> >Klipsch into your living room?
>
> Because this is the house that I bought...for $49.5 BTW (now worth
> about $75k).

Hey... a windfall, more congrats.

> I didn't buy the house to put around a stereo system. Why
> do YOU have YOUR listening room in a sub-optimal situation? Why?

Why are you shouting Dave? WHY? WHY?
Anyway, by sub-optimal you mean less than perfect... I've never been in
a perfect listening room... have you? But, FWIW, when I added a
second story I did put in two large rooms one of which is now my
listening room. I did some little things like making the inside wall
(front wall) double panelled with a buried acoustic panel layer to keep
sound transmissions down. I also loaded the space between floors with
insulation to keep sound down. That worked pretty well... I can rock
upstairs and my wife isn't disturbed in the master bedroom downstairs.
It isn't perfect but it will do.

> Because you are working with what you have.

And still working... I didn't like the sliding door to a deck on my
rear wall so I enclosed the deck and created an arched opening. That
helped a bunch.

Have you made any mods or are you truly stuck?

>
> >> Since you guys have to
> >> spend $300,000 for a starter house,
> >
> > Last time we went over this you were claiming a trailer house was a
> >starter home. Anyway, now 300K might get you a condo. ASP for a
> >single family home was just about 500K in San Diego last month.
>
> Thank you for putting an exclamation point on MY point. I was being
> generous. Here, $500,000 will buy you an acre, 3500 SF, a swimming
> pool and all of the nice touches.

Except for the acre...more like 12K sq ft.. thats sounds about like
the average home out here. Perhaps the cost of housing isn't all that
different. My wife likes to garden so we have a half acre and pool in
the back. Anymore would be a burden.

>
> >> I think that puts me way ahead.
> >
> > Lot of folks use that 500K for retirement.. whats your plan? Oh yeah,
> >you're a social security dependent. I hope it works out for you.
>
> Yes, it probably will. My needs have always been pretty simple.
> However, how are your waiters going to get that $500,000 into a house
> in the first place?

Marry an educated successful women I guess. Like I said, I don't
recommend a career in waitering for anyone who actually wants a home or
a family.

>
> >> Plus, it takes me 8 minutes to get to work. Or downtown. Or out in
> >the
> >> country.
> >
> >8 minutes to everywhere. I see Nashville is a rapidly growing
> >community.
>
> It is. I just don't like to live in the sprawling suburbs.
>
> > Hey, I'm not going to knock living in hicksville... it definitely has
> >its perks. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you) hi-tech job
> >opportunities isn't something Nashville is known for.
>
> No, it's just home to a huge medical and music industry.

Last I heard, the music industry is going through a bit of a
downturn.

> I know tht
> it's not as "hi tech" as building cell phones, but what the hey?

No one is building cell phones in SD anymore. Even Kyocera who bought
our cell phone business some 5+ years ago has gone south and to CMs.
However there are at least 3 major players who have design centers in
the area which provides a pretty good technical base in that field. San
Diego is also pretty established in bio-tech.

> We
> only build cars here and run hospitals across the country

We can't keep our hospitals open as only 1 in 3 patients pay for their
service.

>and do
> significant medical research at Vanderbilt, a school that is
> considered the equivalent of Ivy league. We also sell billions of
> dollars of music. Frankly, it's a great place to live. Just ask folks
> like Mark Knopfler, Cher, Peter Framton, Ben Folds, and countless
> other musicians.
>
> I'll stick to "hickville" as opposed to living in a rather souless
> place like San Diego.

I'm sure Cher brings a lot of soul to wherever she lives :). You may
call it souless, but what I have come to realize is that San Diegans
don't rely on others to provide them with entertainment. Between the
ocean, the deserts, and the mountains... everyone seems to find plenty
to do without Cher. No, you won't find some incredible club scene or
music scene (althought places like Humphries by the Bay and Coors
Amphitheatre seem to do fine and I missed the recent 2 day Festival
Del Mar which I heard was awesome
http://www.festivaldelmar.org/?page=performers) but that doesn't mean
people are lacking for things to do nor enjoying themselves.

ScottW

ScottW

May 24th 05, 10:47 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 14:39:36 -0700, "Schizoid Man" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"dave weil" > wrote in message
> >
> >>> So, are you telling these unhappy guys on the boards how well they can
> >>>do in Nashville? We need to move some of this excess disgruntled labor
> >>>into the heartland.
> >>
> >> No, mostly I commiserated with them. It wasn't my idea to lord my good
> >> fortune over them.
> >
> >Dave,
> >
> >You're not really comparing Nashville and San Diego are you? Please don't.
>
> Yes. and quite favorably.

Just wondering when you were last in San Diego? You don't seem to
have much reason to visit this part of the country.

ScottW

ScottW

May 24th 05, 10:51 PM

Schizoid Man wrote:
> "dave weil" > wrote in message
>
> > I'll stick to "hickville" as opposed to living in a rather souless
> > place like San Diego. I'll give you one thing though - you have a
> > great zoo. Probably the best in the country.
>
> Compared to San Francisco, yes, San Diego is pretty dire. Typical suburban
> sprawl.
>
> >>If it was, those
> >>nice houses would be a lot nicer and a lot more expensive.
> >
> > Oh, we have our share of those as well. Lots of million dollar
> > mansions that would cost upwards of $10,000,000 there in San Diego. In
> > fact, a community only 5 miles from where I live is one of the
> > wealthiest in the nation. Belle Meade's average income is $190,000.
> > About 18,000 people live there.
>
> Even so, I don't think the best of Southern California compares what we have
> up here.

I hate the So Cal & No Cal term though I have used it. Kind of
implies Monterey and Oakland are on par. Or San Diego and Compton.

>The Bay Area really is ridiculous. Forget places like Pacific
> Heights or any of the trendy San Francisco neighborhoods, a cookie cutter
> house out in the wilderness of Fremont (east of the city) or Mountain View
> (south of the city) will set you back by at least $500,000.

Is this a good thing?

>
> It's even worse if you head up north into Marin, being the wealthiest county
> in the country now.
>
> > Finally, one of the great things about living here - no state income
> > tax. And a state with a surplus. I'm quite happy here for the moment.
>
> True. But then, we have Lake Tahoe in the winter, Monterey in the summer and
> Napa Valley all year round, great weather and the beers in the nation.

and a teachers union spending 18 million on political self interest :)

ScottW

MINe 109

May 24th 05, 11:16 PM

In article . com>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> I hate the So Cal & No Cal term though I have used it. Kind of
> implies Monterey and Oakland are on par. Or San Diego and Compton.

I'll guess you haven't lived north of the Tehachapis.

Stephen

Schizoid Man

May 25th 05, 12:44 AM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> No one is building cell phones in SD anymore. Even Kyocera who bought
> our cell phone business some 5+ years ago has gone south and to CMs.
> However there are at least 3 major players who have design centers in
> the area which provides a pretty good technical base in that field. San
> Diego is also pretty established in bio-tech.

San Diego is still not a patch on San Francisco in terms of arts, culture,
music, vitality or the abundance of high-tech jobs.

In fact, in a head-to-head comparison, the only plus points I would give San
Diego is better weather and hotter women. ;-)

Schizoid Man

May 25th 05, 12:49 AM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> I hate the So Cal & No Cal term though I have used it. Kind of
> implies Monterey and Oakland are on par. Or San Diego and Compton.

Good point, but then Oakland and Compton are not exactly on par either! ;-)

>>The Bay Area really is ridiculous. Forget places like Pacific
>> Heights or any of the trendy San Francisco neighborhoods, a cookie cutter
>> house out in the wilderness of Fremont (east of the city) or Mountain
>> View
>> (south of the city) will set you back by at least $500,000.
>
> Is this a good thing?

Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here. Plus,
after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and Austin
is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins) and New York (capital of the
world, 'nuff said), I think San Francisco is an ideal mix between the
idyllic and the frenetic.

Plus, we literally have the best parts of the country on the outskirts of
the city.

> and a teachers union spending 18 million on political self interest :)

We can blame that one on the Guv. ;-)

Surf

May 25th 05, 03:04 AM

"Schizoid Man" > wrote
>
> Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here. Plus,
> after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and
> Austin is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins)

what are the property taxes like there?

ScottW

May 25th 05, 03:16 AM

Schizoid Man wrote:
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
> > I hate the So Cal & No Cal term though I have used it. Kind of
> > implies Monterey and Oakland are on par. Or San Diego and Compton.
>
> Good point, but then Oakland and Compton are not exactly on par either! ;-)
>
> >>The Bay Area really is ridiculous. Forget places like Pacific
> >> Heights or any of the trendy San Francisco neighborhoods, a cookie cutter
> >> house out in the wilderness of Fremont (east of the city) or Mountain
> >> View
> >> (south of the city) will set you back by at least $500,000.
> >
> > Is this a good thing?
>
> Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here.

One would think but San Diego's recent run up in real estate grossly
outpaced the income levels around here. That correlation is
temporarily broken as people used the lower interest rates and equity
to move up.

> Plus,
> after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and Austin
> is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins) and New York (capital of the
> world, 'nuff said),

New York isn't for me.

> I think San Francisco is an ideal mix between the
> idyllic and the frenetic.
>
> Plus, we literally have the best parts of the country on the outskirts of
> the city.

Parts of 'frisco are great.. other parts attract the pervs of the
country. I've spent too much time in silicon valley and it amazed me a
place home to so much money could be so devoid of anything but
industry. You had to drive somewhere for almost any kind of
entertainment beyond a typical restaurant. That was amazing to me.
I used to know a guy that lived in some old section of 'frisco with
those attached row homes...no yard...very skinny arrangements. It was
supposedly some famous area... close to that windy road on the hill.
His place was 2 stories and only 1200 sq ft, he paid 700K for it about
8 years ago and then paid another 300K for a 3rd story that added 600
sq. ft. Building had to be nearly reframed the core structure was so
old. All that and he had a rotten commute to Santa Clara. He loved
it, thought he was in heaven :)

>
> > and a teachers union spending 18 million on political self interest :)
>
> We can blame that one on the Guv. ;-)

Should have heard the SDMEA acting so gracious today as they "took
the lead" and accepted a pay freeze. All the while their nervous
smiles revealed their true panic that their pension benefits will be
declared illegal. The illustrious lame duck/resigned mayor just
revealed they spent 20 mil in outside attorneys fees to obtain a
"second opinion" over the city attorney who has called them all crooks.
If they weren't before this, now they are. Now these schmucks want to
tax the beach to bail their crooked asses out. SD politics are a made
for TV script.

ScottW

Lionel

May 25th 05, 04:00 AM

In >, Signal wrote :

> "Lionel" emitted :
>
>>> you are an insincere troll
>>
>>Not all the time George !

Oh,An attentive reader !...

Congratulation Paulo.

> You can only fool....
>
> Hey.. what's that behind you!

Schizoid Man

May 25th 05, 07:31 AM

"Surf" > wrote in message

> "Schizoid Man" > wrote
>>
>> Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here. Plus,
>> after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and
>> Austin is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins)
>
>
> what are the property taxes like there?

On average, I'd say property tax is about 1% higher in Texas than in
California, but the net result is still in Texas's favor with the overall
property costs being lower.

Schizoid Man

May 25th 05, 07:35 AM

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> Parts of 'frisco are great.. other parts attract the pervs of the
> country. I've spent too much time in silicon valley and it amazed me a
> place home to so much money could be so devoid of anything but
> industry. You had to drive somewhere for almost any kind of
> entertainment beyond a typical restaurant.

Well said, Scott. Parts of the valley really are quite dire. Endless
suburban sprawl. Multi-lane highways, strip malls, car parks, clusters of
office building. It could be Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, Houston... it's
all the same.

European cities - London, Paris, Amsterdam, Vienna - are truly in a class of
their own.

But I suppose it's really a function of mindset, American v European.

George M. Middius

May 25th 05, 12:56 PM

Schizoid Man said:

> Multi-lane highways, strip malls, car parks, clusters of
> office building. It could be Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, Houston... it's
> all the same.
>
> European cities - London, Paris, Amsterdam, Vienna - are truly in a class of
> their own.
>
> But I suppose it's really a function of mindset, American v European.

If by "mindset" you mean greed, then you're right.

dave weil

May 25th 05, 01:48 PM

On 24 May 2005 14:45:25 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>> That's a shame, because restaurants could use more career people.
>
> At those wages? If they want people to make a career out of it,
>don't you think they need to raise the base salary?

Not really. I think that making $15 - $25 an hour works for quite a
few people. After all, there are plenty of people who earn less for
most of their lives.

There are some distinct advantages to the job as a career and there
are a few drawbacks as well, just like any other career.

Raising the base salary would make it hard for most people to eat out,
since menu prices would rise something like 30% at worse (if tipping
were abolished and people were paid roughly what they're making now
with tips). At least there in California, the base rate is a little
over minimum wage (and menu prices are higher than the rest of the
country). In most of the rest of the country, the wage is more like
2.13 - 3.30 an hour.

As to the rest of your post, I guess it's just people defending where
they live, and I'm cool with that. But just as you wouldn't want to
live in NYC, I wouldn't want to live in SoCal. We have a lot of people
around here that love Florida and I don't mind visiting, but I
wouldn't want to live there. I'm just not all that enamoured of the
ocean. Give me hills and lush mountains any day. I'd love to live in
wine country, but I'm realistic about the chances of THAT. I like
Nashville, because it's easy to achieve a great standard of living
without giving up very much, like the ability to buy a house.

MINe 109

May 25th 05, 02:02 PM

In article om>,
"ScottW" > wrote:

> Parts of 'frisco are great... 'frisco...

And you complain about "SoCal?"

BTW, the character of Silicon Valley was established before the money
got there.

Stephen

Bill

May 25th 05, 04:05 PM

On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:49:32 -0700, "Schizoid Man" >
wrote:

[. . .]

>Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here. Plus,
>after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and Austin
>is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins) and New York (capital of the
>world, 'nuff said), I think San Francisco is an ideal mix between the
>idyllic and the frenetic.
>
>Plus, we literally have the best parts of the country on the outskirts of
>the city.
[. . .]

Living in the People's Republic of Austin puts you right next to the
what is indeed some of the most geologically interesting area in the
state. "Eight counties of sheer beauty surrounded by 245 of stark
reality."

Schizoid Man

May 25th 05, 06:35 PM

"Bill" > wrote in message

> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:49:32 -0700, "Schizoid Man" >
> wrote:
>
> [. . .]
>
>>Not really, but it is a direct function of the income levels here. Plus,
>>after living in Austin (Texas is another state with no income tax and
>>Austin
>>is usually high on 'quality of life' rankins) and New York (capital of the
>>world, 'nuff said), I think San Francisco is an ideal mix between the
>>idyllic and the frenetic.
>>
>>Plus, we literally have the best parts of the country on the outskirts of
>>the city.
> [. . .]
>
> Living in the People's Republic of Austin puts you right next to the
> what is indeed some of the most geologically interesting area in the
> state. "Eight counties of sheer beauty surrounded by 245 of stark
> reality."

Well said...

ScottW

May 25th 05, 08:20 PM

dave weil wrote:
> On 24 May 2005 14:45:25 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> >> That's a shame, because restaurants could use more career people.
> >
> > At those wages? If they want people to make a career out of it,
> >don't you think they need to raise the base salary?
>
> Not really. I think that making $15 - $25 an hour works for quite a
> few people. After all, there are plenty of people who earn less for
> most of their lives.

Sad but true. Did you see the National average home resale (not new)
price just broke 200K? Hard to rationalize to anyone that $15-$25 will
work for a young person trying to get a start.

>
> There are some distinct advantages to the job as a career and there
> are a few drawbacks as well, just like any other career.
>
> Raising the base salary would make it hard for most people to eat out,
> since menu prices would rise something like 30% at worse (if tipping
> were abolished and people were paid roughly what they're making now
> with tips). At least there in California, the base rate is a little
> over minimum wage (and menu prices are higher than the rest of the
> country). In most of the rest of the country, the wage is more like
> 2.13 - 3.30 an hour.

6.75/hour is the min wage... my kid got $7.50 to start.. as a bus
boy.
>
> As to the rest of your post, I guess it's just people defending where
> they live, and I'm cool with that.

Me too. I went on 2 week motorcycle tour across Kentucky and
Tennessee some 20 years ago. Eastern Tennessee in the smokies there
was gorgeous. Coming from Minnesota the coolest thing was few
mosquitoes... the hills and flowing streams give 'em little breeding
grounds I guess.

> But just as you wouldn't want to
> live in NYC, I wouldn't want to live in SoCal. We have a lot of people
> around here that love Florida and I don't mind visiting, but I
> wouldn't want to live there.

I spent 2 weeks in Boca Raton in July one year. Awful... absolutely
awful.

>I'm just not all that enamoured of the
> ocean. Give me hills and lush mountains any day.

You do realize we can go from the Ocean to about 6,000 foot elevation
in about 40 minutes out here? Theres probably still a bit of snow
within an hour of my place up in the San Bernadino mountains.

> I'd love to live in
> wine country, but I'm realistic about the chances of THAT.

Ramona (just a few miles east of SD) used to be a major wine area years
ago but some disease wiped most of the vines. Now people are starting
them up again. One of the guys I work with bought a small place out
there that has vines that survived on their own for the last 40 years.
He joined a small consortium of growers who established a winery.
Theres a historical vinyard in Escondido and quite a few vinyards in
Temecula and Rancho California which is less than a half hour from my
place in North County.

> I like
> Nashville, because it's easy to achieve a great standard of living
> without giving up very much, like the ability to buy a house.

Used to be able to buy a huge grand old house of about 5000 sq ft in
Hurley Wisconsin for back taxes ;).

ScottW