The Great Debate was a null result

[Schizoid Man]

In my experice among audio dealers in Austin, New York and now San
Francisco, the high-end business seems to be more about the price of the
equipment than the fidelity of the music reproduction.

It is, to quote John Atkinson out of context, more about "beautifully
engineered" equipment than the music itself. Which is why I completely agree
with what Wes Philips says in the article below:
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/405awsi/index.html

I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded that
I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
to. This exemplifies exactly what I feel is wrong with the high-end business
today - most people don't have a clue.

This experience is almost analogous to an audio dealer berating Fremer that
a magazine like Stereophile could review the Apple iPod (in other words,
equipment worth $199 cannot be true high-end), or when another user on RAHE
flatly stated that "mp3 sounds terrible". Both opinions are not only wrong,
but reek of ignorance. Kudos to SP for reviewing products such as the Apple
iPod.

I used my iPod with Shure e3c earphones, and with files that are 'ripped'
using Apple's Lossless Encoder, the sound quality is truly staggering.

[Arny Krueger]

Schizoid Man wrote:

> This experience is almost analogous to an audio dealer
berating
> Fremer that a magazine like Stereophile could review the
Apple iPod
> (in other words, equipment worth $199 cannot be true
high-end), or
> when another user on RAHE flatly stated that "mp3 sounds
terrible".

> Both opinions are not only wrong, but reek of ignorance.

Strictly speaking an opinion can't be wrong, but like you
say an opinion can easily suggest that the one offering the
opinon is ignorant of relevant facts.

> Kudos to SP for reviewing products such as the Apple
iPod.

Agreed. Reviewing real-world products every once in a while
can't hurt.

> I used my iPod with Shure e3c earphones, and with files
that are
> 'ripped' using Apple's Lossless Encoder, the sound quality
is truly
> staggering.

Been there, done that and basically I agree.

[Clyde Slick]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
> In my experice among audio dealers in Austin, New York and now San
> Francisco, the high-end business seems to be more about the price of the
> equipment than the fidelity of the music reproduction.
>
> It is, to quote John Atkinson out of context, more about "beautifully
> engineered" equipment than the music itself. Which is why I completely
> agree with what Wes Philips says in the article below:
> http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/405awsi/index.html
>
> I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
> Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded
> that I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp
> without asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music
> I listen to.

"the high-end business seems to be more about the price of the
equipment than the fidelity of the music reproduction."

and

"Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded that
I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
to. "

the Jolida isn't an expensive piece of equipment.
not exactly an expensive peice of equipment.
What were you sayng about



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[George M. Middius]

Schizoid Man said:

> I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
> Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded that
> I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
> asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
> to. This exemplifies exactly what I feel is wrong with the high-end business
> today - most people don't have a clue.

I had a similar, yet opposite, experience. I called a shop to ask about a
power amplifier, and the salesguy immediately started pushing a receiver.
I tried to explain that my speakers do better with a dedicated amp, and he
wouldn't even listen. "20 years experience", "this receiver can drive any
speakers on the market", "don't worry about classical music"... It was as
if Arnii Krooger were a salesdroid. Clueless is the word.

[Steven Sullivan]

Arny Krueger > wrote:
> Schizoid Man wrote:

> > This experience is almost analogous to an audio dealer
> berating
> > Fremer that a magazine like Stereophile could review the
> Apple iPod
> > (in other words, equipment worth $199 cannot be true
> high-end), or
> > when another user on RAHE flatly stated that "mp3 sounds
> terrible".

> > Both opinions are not only wrong, but reek of ignorance.

> Strictly speaking an opinion can't be wrong, but like you
> say an opinion can easily suggest that the one offering the
> opinon is ignorant of relevant facts.

The RAHE poster who made that sweeping claim about mp3s was,
of course, unable to back it up with anything approaching
relevant facts.


___
-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Robert Morein]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
> In my experice among audio dealers in Austin, New York and now San
> Francisco, the high-end business seems to be more about the price of the
> equipment than the fidelity of the music reproduction.
>
> It is, to quote John Atkinson out of context, more about "beautifully
> engineered" equipment than the music itself. Which is why I completely
agree
> with what Wes Philips says in the article below:
> http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/405awsi/index.html
>
> I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
> Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded
that
> I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
> asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
> to. This exemplifies exactly what I feel is wrong with the high-end
business
> today - most people don't have a clue.
>
Yes, and this is one of the reasons hifi doesn't attract the younger
generation(s).

When I was in college, anyone in the know wanted a Hafler amp. It was a big
day for some when they ditched their Heathkit stuff for Hafler. There was a
shared passion for these modestly priced machines that does not exist today.

"Ugly" was "in". It was all about sound, performance for the price, and
build quality where it counts, not where it doesn't.
Consumers of this stuff were actually informed, intelligent, and involved.

I now direct a comment to Stereophile, since it is the most influential
surviving magazine.

I have immense respect for John Atkinson personally, and his measurement
work. However, he did inform me once, in response to one of my letters of
protest, that Stereophile was an "exclusive" magazine, not "inclusive". I
believe I made my protest in the context of the nonrepresentation of Sony
ES, certain other Japanese manufacturers, and Hafler, which are partial
examples of performance without pretense. In some cases, notably Sony DSP,
which in 1991 was an exceptional technological advance, Hafler and Acoustat
MOSFETs, these equipments were technological leaders.

I concede that influence of the magazines is open to debate, but the
evolution of audio has reached a sad plateau, concerned mainly with
engineering out iron and copper, while concentrating on aspects of decor.
The middle aged man who seeks rejuvenation might wish to have an altar to
technology in his living room, but there are those of us who prefer to
listen.

An examination of Parasound specs shows that the newer models have lost 10
dB of s/n compared to the old ones, while acquiring the bejeweled appearance
of so many made-in-China pieces.

The result is an entry level vacuum. With little literature or product of a
utilitarian nature, a younger person has no easy access to really good
sound.

Sadly, the best place to buy good two channel gear is eBay.

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Arny Krueger > wrote:

>> Schizoid Man wrote:

>>> This experience is almost analogous to an audio dealer
berating
>>> Fremer that a magazine like Stereophile could review the
Apple iPod
>>> (in other words, equipment worth $199 cannot be true
high-end), or
>>> when another user on RAHE flatly stated that "mp3 sounds
terrible".

>>> Both opinions are not only wrong, but reek of ignorance.
>
>> Strictly speaking an opinion can't be wrong, but like you
>> say an opinion can easily suggest that the one offering
the
>> opinon is ignorant of relevant facts.

> The RAHE poster who made that sweeping claim about mp3s
was,
> of course, unable to back it up with anything approaching
> relevant facts.

What's new?

As far as consumer audio opinion groups on Usenet, you've
got RAHE which is a bad joke, and RAO which is a perverse
joke.

[Sander deWaal]

"Robert Morein" > said:

>> I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
>> Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded
>that
>> I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
>> asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
>> to. This exemplifies exactly what I feel is wrong with the high-end
>business
>> today - most people don't have a clue.

>Yes, and this is one of the reasons hifi doesn't attract the younger
>generation(s).


Every time I read threads like this, I realize how happy I am being a
DIY-er.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Lionel]

Sander deWaal a écrit :
> "Robert Morein" > said:
>
>
>>>I was on RAHE the other day asking about replacement suggestions for a
>>>Marantz integrated amp. Almost immediately, some audio dealer responded
>>
>>that
>>
>>>I would be much better off upgrading to a 20wpc Jolida tube amp without
>>>asking any questions about my listening room or the type of music I listen
>>>to. This exemplifies exactly what I feel is wrong with the high-end
>>
>>business
>>
>>>today - most people don't have a clue.
>
>
>>Yes, and this is one of the reasons hifi doesn't attract the younger
>>generation(s).
>
>
>
> Every time I read threads like this, I realize how happy I am being a
> DIY-er.

Seems to me that with Bob and Schizo you are the last RAOers
to cultivate a minimum "audio" common sens... :-|

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
> As far as consumer audio opinion groups on Usenet, you've
> got RAHE which is a bad joke, and RAO which is a perverse
> joke.
>

.....but funny!!!
Thanks for all the material, Arny!



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[[email protected]]

The old Hafler amplifiers, or should I say the middle-aged solid state
Hafler amplifiers, are still good basic equipment that can be
refurbished or modified and give pretty decent sound. Some mods make
them quite good. You can still get a good performance to dollar ratio
out of these things. But they are not "high-end" audio, which is about,
or should be, the best possible performance. Measured or perceived, or
some combination of both. The same is true in principle of Dynaco Mk.n
/ST70 amps-work ok with mods, fun to play with, but you are not going
to make a first rate amplifier from them. The OPTs aren't there, the
power supply isn't there.

Stereophile couldn't make money promoting hobby audio-Ed Dell is in
effect subsidizing AudioXPress, the only non-tweakstremist _hobby_ mag
in the USA. The _electronics_ magazines are dead for all intents and
purposes-even the bottom feeders won't write for them anymore-so can
you blame JA?

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >, says...

>I used my iPod with Shure e3c earphones, and with files that are 'ripped'
>using Apple's Lossless Encoder, the sound quality is truly staggering.

What is the apple losless encoder? Does this software come with an ipod?
-------------
Alex

[Schizoid Man]

"Alex Rodriguez" > wrote in message

> In article >
>
>>I used my iPod with Shure e3c earphones, and with files that are 'ripped'
>>using Apple's Lossless Encoder, the sound quality is truly staggering.
>
> What is the apple losless encoder? Does this software come with an ipod?
> -------------
> Alex

It's an importing method in iTunes.

[Nathan Hess]

"Schizoid Man" > writes:

> In my experice among audio dealers in Austin, New York and now San
> Francisco, the high-end business seems to be more about the price of the
> equipment than the fidelity of the music reproduction.

Have you given Brian Kurtz over at Sound Mind Audio a call?

--woodstock
--
It's funny how you can go through life thinking you've seen
everything... Then you suddenly realize there are millions of things
you've never seen before. -- Linus, to Charlie Brown _~~.
(_" /
'`