Arny vs. Atkinson debat - Could someone post a blow by blow?

[Victor Martell]

Hello

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Thnx

V

[Tom]

"Victor Martell" > wrote
>
> I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
> tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> proceedings?


It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?

[Robert Morein]

"Tom" > wrote in message
...
> "Victor Martell" > wrote
> >
> > I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe
is
> > tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> > proceedings?
>
>
> It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?
>
Not for post-betting.

[vmartell]

Certainly - Just missed that info. However, it could be fun to follow
the thing in real time and comment as it goes, including audience
reaction and debaters' expression, body language, etc.

V

[EddieM]

> Victor Martell" > wrote
>
>
>
> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?



http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html


WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!



ROTF

[Schizoid Man]

"EddieM" > wrote in message

> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html
>
> WAHH hahahhahahah !!
>
> Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
> It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!
>
> I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
> about the flight. Lol!

I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference is
not only detectable, it is staggering.

[ScottW]

I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
summary.

Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
audio will more than suffice.

ScottW

[dave weil]

On 29 Apr 2005 23:36:32 -0700, "ScottW" > wrote:

>I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
>detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
>tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
>can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
>to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
>crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
>I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
>summary.
>
>Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
>audio will more than suffice.
>
>ScottW

"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".

I don't know if Mr. Rachlin has mischaracterized Arnold's rebuttal,
but this is a similar point to the one that says that by inducing a
highly unnatural and artificial comparison between very small musical
snippets, such as occurs in PCABX protocol, you have "altered" the
conciousness of the listener and have made it difficult to evaluate
the difference between components.

IOW, the mindset (read conciousness) of the listener is far different
than it would be if one were listening to systems in a manner more
similar to the actual listening that one does when listening for
enjoyment.

Also, there's the additional stress of the test itself, trying to find
differences in such small snatches of musical content. No, it's not
white-knuckle stress of being held up at gunpoint like Mr. Ferstler
likes to think that I'm saying, but it's stress nonetheless, and far
more stress than a test that progesses in a more natural fashion.

Any test is, by its very nature, going to alter the conciousness of
the listener, so his point is really pretty meaningless, because it's
true for all cases of testing.

[Clyde Slick]

"dave weil" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
> reviewer's system.
>
> Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
> as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
> not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
> same it was before he changed the amplifier".
>

Lordy! And he won't concede that listening in the ABX environment
changes the conscious state of the listener.

Basically, he is saying that the human emotional sate is merely
another variable to be eliminated in evaluating a system.

BORG ALERT!!!



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[MINe 109]

In article >,
"Clyde Slick" > wrote:

> "dave weil" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
> > reviewer's system.
> >
> > Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
> > as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
> > not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
> > same it was before he changed the amplifier".
> >
>
> Lordy! And he won't concede that listening in the ABX environment
> changes the conscious state of the listener.
>
> Basically, he is saying that the human emotional sate is merely
> another variable to be eliminated in evaluating a system.

The ideal reviewer:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/89/89mshortterm.phtml

Stephen

[Clyde Slick]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
>
> "EddieM" > wrote in message
>
>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html
>>
>> WAHH hahahhahahah !!
>>
>> Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
>> It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!
>>
>> I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
>> about the flight. Lol!
>
> I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
> important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference
> is not only detectable, it is staggering.
>

It is known as absolute polarity, it is the inversion of pahase of both
chanels simultaneously.

It is not always noticable to me, it tends to be more noticable
on cd's and on acoustic or vocal redordings.

Sometimes, a cd has the wrong absolute polarity, nad inverting it
during playback improvess the sound.

Two cd's I remember with inversions are my copy of
Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat" and the classic RCA,
"The Reiner Sound.". My lp versions are not inverted.
My Reiner lp is not original, it is a Clasic Records reissue




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[Arny Krueger]

EddieM wrote:
>> Victor Martell" > wrote
>>
>>
>>
>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(

[George M. Middius]

****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

> The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

> Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

Do you expect us to take your word about somebody else's boorishness?
That's like asking Ferstler to rate people's modesty.

[ScottW]

So according to this writeup.... you folded. Completely different
Kreuger than on RAO showed up. Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that? Sounds
like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by your metal
(sic) state of mind.

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

George M. Middius wrote:
> ****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.
>
>> The picture of me in question
>
> It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
I was going to do this debate?

[Arny Krueger]

ScottW wrote:

> So according to this writeup.... you folded.

Still can't read, eh scooter?

>Completely different Kreuger than on RAO showed up.

Since my name isn't Kreuger, you have to be talking about a different
guy.

>Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that?


I'd explain it to you if I thought you could understand an idea that
complex.

> Sounds like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by
> your metal (sic) state of mind.

Post again when you learn to read and spell, Scooter.

[George M. Middius]

The Big **** stinks up the joint.

> > ****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.
> >
> >> The picture of me in question
> >
> > It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.
>
> So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
> I was going to do this debate?

I'm surprised you showed up, but even more surprised you didn't bring a
bag of turds to throw around.

Were you humiliated often? Did anybody try to put money in your cup?

[ScottW]

First Howard reveals the magic surround, now you have a metal state of
mind with a concept of audio hygiene. Should I even bother watching
the video when it comes out?
Did you make a legit point or did you spin away your time in semantics
like a reviewer for Stereophile?

That's it! Arny showed up looking for a job. The suit gave it away.
Guess the house remodel is costing a bit more than planned.
Since Howie announced his impending retirement... you may find a job
yet.

ScottW

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> EddieM wrote:
>>> Victor Martell" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?
>
>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html
>
>
> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>
> Here's a working link:
>
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>

Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read it
last night



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[EddieM]

> Arny Krueger wrote
>> EddieM wrote:
>>> Victor Martell wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?
>
> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.


It worked last night.


> Here's a working link:
>
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
> than he is on RAHE. ;-(




I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about? How did you prepared in as far as flexing
some muscles for this Debate? What was your opponent's
greatest strength?

Well, did you had fun yesterday? How's the food?
Did you met any luminaries? Which one did you find
interesting the most?

[John Atkinson]

EddieM wrote:
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> > The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> > Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
> > beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
> > he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
> > him I know not.

Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.

> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
> was that all about?

That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.

My thanks, Arny, for your graciousness in agreeing to proceed with
the debate without being able to give your PowerPoint presentation.

I hope to have the recording available for streaming on our website
some time next week.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Schizoid Man]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message

> EddieM wrote:

>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>> was that all about?
>
> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
> DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
> computer to record the debate.

Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?

[Michael Conzo]

In article om, "John
Atkinson" > wrote:

> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.

This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It wasn't necessary
to pay equal respect to the audience, for they didn't come to hear
nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger. And your lack of proper
preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the debate made the effort clearly
biased by Stereophile. Any competent engineer tests his gear in situ before
a big gig. Your failures in this regard are frankly inexcusable.

[Robert Morein]

"Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
...
> In article om, "John
> Atkinson" > wrote:
>
> > That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
> > to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
> > Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
> > been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
> > Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
> > a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>
> This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
> incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.

"Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been attempts at
investment fraud.

[Arny Krueger]

George M. Middius wrote:
> The Big **** stinks up the joint.
>
>>> ****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.
>>>
>>>> The picture of me in question
>>>
>>> It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.
>>
>> So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way
>> that I was going to do this debate?
>
> I'm surprised you showed up,

Under states the fact that my appearance is a major sucessful attack
on your credibility, Middius.

[Arny Krueger]

Clyde Slick wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> EddieM wrote:
>>>> Victor Martell" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?
>>
>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html
>>
>>
>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>>
>> Here's a working link:
>>
>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

> Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
read
> it last night.

Prove it.

[Schizoid Man]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message

> Clyde Slick wrote:

>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message

>>> Here's a working link:
>>>
>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
>> Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
> read
>> it last night.
>
> Prove it.

It did, actually.

[Lionel]

> George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

>
>>The Big **** stinks up the joint.
>>
>>
>>>>****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The picture of me in question
>>>>
>>>>It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.
>>>
>>>So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way
>>>that I was going to do this debate?
>>
>>I'm surprised you showed up,

Poor George, he is so often wrong that his life is a
succession of pitiful denials.

> Under states the fact that my appearance is a major sucessful attack
> on your credibility, Middius.

Don't make the mistake, NostraMiddius hasn't any
credibility. He just makes sentences on RAO for narcissitic
pleasure only.

Apart Middius and his delusion of grandeur, this meeting is
a funny setback for all the RAO's moronic spectators who
were waiting for a wrestling fight.

:-)

[Lionel]

Robert Morein a écrit :
> "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article om, "John
>>Atkinson" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>>
>>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
>>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
>
>
> "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
> I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
> His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
> usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been attempts at
> investment fraud.

We are on RAO Bob !!!
Conzo/McCarty is somewhere right. You can easily imagine the
din, the cabal, the mockeries if Arny had made such mistake.

I'm sure that without a big effort of imagination you read
what Middius would have written. ;-)


Now we just hope that, at Stereophile, the reviews are
prepared with more care and more seriousness...
Now gossips and scandal mongerers can pretend that such lake
of professionalism could explain some technical divergences
between Atkinson and Krueger...

:-D

[Lionel]

Robert Morein a écrit :
> "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article om, "John
>>Atkinson" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>>
>>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
>>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
>
>
> "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
> I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
> His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
> usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been attempts at
> investment fraud.

We are on RAO Bob !!!
Conzo/McCarty is somewhere right. You can easily imagine the
din, the cabal, the mockeries if Arny had made such mistake.
I'm sure that without a big effort of imagination you can
read what Middius would have written. ;-)


Now we just hope that, at Stereophile, the reviews are
prepared with more care and more seriousness...
And we let the gossips and scandal mongerers pretend that
such lake of professionalism could explain some technical
divergences between Atkinson and Krueger...

:-D

[Arny Krueger]

EddieM wrote:
>> Arny Krueger wrote

>>> EddieM wrote:

>>>> Victor Martell wrote

>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?
>
>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

> It worked last night.

So you say.

>> Here's a working link:

>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's
>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>>
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.

> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
> was that all about?

Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.

As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.

Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.

Stuff happens.

The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.

My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.

I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.

Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.

> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.

If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.

> What was your opponent's greatest strength?

Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.

> Well, did you had fun yesterday?

I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

> How's the food?

Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

> Did you met any luminaries?

I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

> Which one did you find the most interesting?

I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

[Arny Krueger]

John Atkinson wrote:
> EddieM wrote:
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>>> Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
>>> beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
>>> he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
>>> him I know not.
>
> Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
> latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.

I didn't come a thousand miles to have my time wasted in great volume
by idiots like Harry Lavo.

[Arny Krueger]

Schizoid Man wrote:
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>
>> EddieM wrote:
>
>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>> was that all about?
>>
>> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the
appropriate
>> DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
>> computer to record the debate.
>
> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?

This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.

[Arny Krueger]

Michael Conzo wrote:
> In article om,
"John
> Atkinson" > wrote:
>
>> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.

> This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster,
> showed incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It
> wasn't necessary to pay equal respect to the audience, for they
> didn't come to hear nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger.

Thank you. A muzzle for Fremer would have also been a good idea.

>And your lack of proper preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the
debate
> made the effort clearly biased by Stereophile. Any competent
> engineer tests his gear in situ before a big gig. Your failures in
> this regard are frankly inexcusable.

The infrastructure failure is more excusable if you consider the
context - HE2005 was a IMO wasteland of modern and competent
presentation technology.

[Arny Krueger]

Robert Morein wrote:
> "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article om,
>> "John Atkinson" > wrote:
>>
>>> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>>> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>>> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>>> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>>> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not
have
>>> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>>
>> This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster,
>> showed incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
>
> "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.

This would be an unproven claim.

> I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.

I advise everybody to avoid interaction with Morein because he's nuts.

> His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of
others...

If irony killed!

[Schizoid Man]

"Lionel" > wrote in message

> Apart Middius and his delusion of grandeur, this meeting is a funny
> setback for all the RAO's moronic spectators who were waiting for a
> wrestling fight.

You hit the nail on the head, Lionel.

[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still have sphincters loosening, eh George ?






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[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still




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[Arny Krueger]

Richard wrote:
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
>> read it last night
>>
>
> Not for me! I got the same error message when trying to access it
> today as then:
>
> The page cannot be found
> The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
> changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
>
> It was broken then and remains broken but the one Arny Krueger
posted
> works.

It's possible that the earlier link worked - if the Enjoythemusic
author couldn't properly spell my name right the first time. It has
happened.

Note that despite my attempts with John to get my first name spelled
"Arny", my name-card at the debate was misspelled.

[George M. Middius]

You know the debate didn't go well because the Kroo is in full "debating
trade" stride immediately afterward.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

> > Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read
> > it last night.

> Prove it.

Stop whining, Arnii. Rochy fixed a spelling error in the original URL
(your name). You frequently use typos to score your "debating trade"
points. Here's a case of somebody fixing a typo, and you, in response,
denying the existence of something we can all see plainly. Does your
"debating trade" rulebook give you that kind of flexibility, or are you
just being a ****?

[MINe 109]

In article >,
"Schizoid Man" > wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>
> > Clyde Slick wrote:
>
> >> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>
> >>> Here's a working link:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
> >
> >> Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
> > read
> >> it last night.
> >
> > Prove it.
>
> It did, actually.

Worked for me too. Doesn't work now.

Stephen

[George M. Middius]

****-for-Brains tries to pull a shred of victory from a haystack of
humiliation and defeat.

> >>>> The picture of me in question

> >>> It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

No response from Krooger. Admission of lizardness noted.

> major sucessful attack on your credibility, Middius.

<snicker>

Shall we compare credibility, O ****ful One? When the video comes online,
we can see if your bite is as bad as your bark. How many times did you
accuse JA of "fraud" to his face? Zero, you say?

<snicker>

[Lionel]

In >, Schizoid Man wrote :

>
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>
>> Apart Middius and his delusion of grandeur, this meeting is a funny
>> setback for all the RAO's moronic spectators who were waiting for a
>> wrestling fight.
>
> You hit the nail on the head, Lionel.

I'm glad but not surprised that you agree with that.

[dave weil]

On Sun, 1 May 2005 05:49:41 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Schizoid Man wrote:
>> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>>
>>> EddieM wrote:
>>
>>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>>> was that all about?
>>>
>>> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>>> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>>> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>>> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>>> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>>> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the
>appropriate
>>> DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
>>> computer to record the debate.
>>
>> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?
>
>This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.

It's not like you have a website or anything...

[dave weil]

On Sun, 01 May 2005 11:26:27 GMT, Richard >
wrote:

>"Clyde Slick" > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read it
>>last night
>>
>
>Not for me! I got the same error message when trying to access it
>today as then:
>
>The page cannot be found
>The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
>changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
>
>It was broken then and remains broken but the one Arny Krueger posted
>works.

It worked for me as well, as it provided the quote that I used in my
post regarding the debate yesterday. It was the only link that I had
available to me.

[Tom]

"Richard" > wrote

> I got the message
> "The page you are looking for had its name changed."
> It was broken then and remains broken.


But it wasn't broken when it was first posted - was it, Richard?
You have a thing for Arny Krueger?

[Tom]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote

> .....There's a reason why almost every SET demo I heard
> was based on a recording of a solo or a very small group......

> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

"listen to gear" ???

If they like that kind of music played on that kind of gear, what's
the harm? Maybe that kind of distortion has some kind of
calming psychological effect.


> A companion from the BAS...

Boston Audio Society? Malesweski?


Anyway, thanks for the story. We look forward to the video.

[[email protected]]

George M. Middius wrote:
> ****-for-Brains tries to pull a shred of victory from a haystack of
> humiliation and defeat.
>
> > >>>> The picture of me in question
>
> > >>> It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.
>
> No response from Krooger. Admission of lizardness noted.
>
> > major sucessful attack on your credibility, Middius.
>
> <snicker>
>
> Shall we compare credibility, O ****ful One? When the video comes
online,
> we can see if your bite is as bad as your bark. How many times did
you
> accuse JA of "fraud" to his face? Zero, you say?
>
> <snicker>
>
>
Yeah, "George", let's compare Arny's credibility to yours. Arny went to
NYC and had a public face-to-face with Atkinson. Will you have a public
face-to-face with Arny Krueger?
Will you call him "****ful One", "Turdborg", "Mr.
****","****-for-brains", "pedophile", etc., to his face?

<snicker>

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> George M. Middius wrote:
>> The Big **** stinks up the joint.
>>
>>>> ****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.
>>>>
>>>>> The picture of me in question
>>>>
>>>> It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.
>>>
>>> So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way
>>> that I was going to do this debate?
>>
>> I'm surprised you showed up,
>
> Under states the fact that my appearance is a major sucessful attack
> on your credibility, Middius.
>
>

Who is Under?



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[George M. Middius]

The Little **** said:

> Will you call me "****ful One", "Turdborg", "Mr.
> ****","****-for-brains", "pedophile", etc., to my face?

Absolutely. Just tell me where and when to find you.

[George M. Middius]

Clyde Slick said:

> > Under states

> Who is Under?

That might be Arnii's code name for Thing. As in, under Arnii's pooper.

[Tom]

> wrote
>>
> Yeah, "George", let's compare Arny's credibility to yours. Arny went to
> NYC and had a public face-to-face with Atkinson. Will you have a public
> face-to-face with Arny Krueger?


How about you, tubby? Will you back up your RAO bravado in a
face-to-face? Come to think of it, your RAO bravado has really been
toned down lately? Do we have Lisa to thank? Or have you joined
an Ozark church group?

Why so little from you? Are you on the $9.95 AOL plan now?

What's your email address, babe?

[Lionel]

In >, dave weil wrote :

> On Sun, 01 May 2005 11:26:27 GMT, Richard >
> wrote:
>
>>"Clyde Slick" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read it
>>>last night
>>>
>>
>>Not for me! I got the same error message when trying to access it
>>today as then:
>>
>>The page cannot be found
>>The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
>>changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
>>
>>It was broken then and remains broken but the one Arny Krueger posted
>>works.
>
> It worked for me as well, as it provided the quote that I used in my
> post regarding the debate yesterday. It was the only link that I had
> available to me.

It was working for me too !!!
After it didn't work anymore !!!
Now I don't know if it still not working !!!

:-D

[Lionel]

In om>,
wrote :

> Yeah, "George", let's compare Arny's credibility to yours. Arny went to
> NYC and had a public face-to-face with Atkinson. Will you have a public
> face-to-face with Arny Krueger?
> Will you call him "****ful One", "Turdborg", "Mr.
> ****","****-for-brains", "pedophile", etc., to his face?

Are you waiting for an answer ? ;-)

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:

<snip>

>Stuff happens.


Well, kudos anyway for showing up.
Too bad about the PP presentation.
Any chance that it'll become available somewhere?

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Lionel]

"8hz" dave wrote :


>>> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?
>>
>>This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.
>
> It's not like you have a website or anything...

This was clearly suggested by : "I'll see if I can work something out", eh
idiot ?

(Seems that our Dave "Fat Tick" Weil is still desperately looking for
attention from Arnold Krueger).

;-)

[[email protected]]

Lionel wrote:
> In om>,
> wrote :
>
> > Yeah, "George", let's compare Arny's credibility to yours. Arny
went to
> > NYC and had a public face-to-face with Atkinson. Will you have a
public
> > face-to-face with Arny Krueger?
> > Will you call him "****ful One", "Turdborg", "Mr.
> > ****","****-for-brains", "pedophile", etc., to his face?
>
> Are you waiting for an answer ? ;-)
>
>
"George" already answered....by changing the subject. What a surprise!
;-)

[dave weil]

On Sun, 01 May 2005 16:28:58 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>"8hz" dave wrote :
>
>
>>>> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?
>>>
>>>This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.
>>
>> It's not like you have a website or anything...
>
>This was clearly suggested by : "I'll see if I can work something out", eh
>idiot ?

Awww, poor Lionel, back to the name-calling. Frankly, the suggestion
is one of uncertainty.

>(Seems that our Dave "Fat Tick" Weil is still desperately looking for
>attention from Arnold Krueger).

Oh, I know that Arnold is too scared of me to respond to me directly.
He just waits on your knee-jerk (emphasis on the final part of that)
response to allow him to get in a flaccid response to my points.

Attention from Arnold isn't even on the radar. As far as I'm
concerned, his fear is enough.

[whosbest54]

In article >, says...
>
>
>Schizoid Man wrote:
>> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>>
>>> EddieM wrote:
>>
>>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>>> was that all about?
>>>
>>> That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>>> to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>>> Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>>> been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>>> Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>>> a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the
>appropriate
>>> DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
>>> computer to record the debate.
>>
>> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?
>
>This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.
>
The (generally) standard way to do this is to convert it to PDF and post
it on some web site somewhere. There are free PDF converters if you need
one - just search for them. Good luck.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/

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[Lionel]

In >, dave weil wrote :

> On Sun, 01 May 2005 16:28:58 +0200, Lionel >
> wrote:
>
>>"8hz" dave wrote :
>>
>>
>>>>> Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?
>>>>
>>>>This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.
>>>
>>> It's not like you have a website or anything...
>>
>>This was clearly suggested by : "I'll see if I can work something out", eh
>>idiot ?
>
> Awww, poor Lionel, back to the name-calling.

When the qualificative applies to you it isn't name-calling... only
desperate honesty. ;-)

> Frankly, the suggestion
> is one of uncertainty.

Thank you for confirming that *idiot* was an euphemism only.

>>(Seems that our Dave "Fat Tick" Weil is still desperately looking for
>>attention from Arnold Krueger).
>
> Oh, I know that Arnold is too scared of me to respond to me directly.

Do you remember what you have written recently about "the dullest knives" ?

:-D

[whosbest54]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>>> Here's a working link:
>
>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
This is all I've seen of the debate other than the posts to this
thread. If there will be audio or video posted to this site, that
would be nice.

John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in the
text. Obviously the name tag in the photo can't be changed, so I
suggest you crop the photo to leave it out and add captions to the
pics.

My views on the announced topic of the debate have been posted to my
web page for years and are generally in line with Arny's. Those views
aren't modified in any way by what I've read in this thread or on the
above web page.

Nor are my views changed in any way by the way Arny and a number of
other posters choose to behave at times in this newsgroup. For
example, Arny recently replied to a post of mine pointing out that he's
a major contributor to this newsgroup despite his distain for the group
because he likes to annoy other posters.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/3985e2253d970
b59?dmode=source&hl=en

or

http://tinyurl.com/7eysu

John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
method, but on your opinion/feelings. Not that there's anything wrong
with that, if that's what you want to do and it makes you happy. I
choose to rely on more scientific methods to decern _real_ differences
in equipment. And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
aren't important, even if they exist.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
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[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

> No response from Krooger. Admission of lizardness noted.


Since Jim Morrison it's not an insult anymore...


> > major sucessful attack on your credibility, Middius.
>
> <snicker>
>
> Shall we compare credibility, O ****ful One? When the video comes online,
> we can see if your bite is as bad as your bark. How many times did you
> accuse JA of "fraud" to his face? Zero, you say?

Why to accuse JA to be a "fraud", eh George ?
...When the debate has proven that it's true !

;-)




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[Lionel]

In >, whosbest54 wrote :

> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
> method, but on your opinion/feelings.

How to be a hero without few magic legend ?

;-)

[Clyde Slick]

"Richard" > wrote in message
...

> Since I do not know Arny,

You are better off that way.



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[Clyde Slick]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> In >, whosbest54 wrote :
>
>> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
>> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
>> method, but on your opinion/feelings.
>
> How to be a hero without few magic legend ?
>
> ;-)

Maybe you can relate a poignant tale from the sewers.



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[Margaret von B.]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> EddieM wrote:
>>> Arny Krueger wrote
>
>>>> EddieM wrote:
>
>>>>> Victor Martell wrote
>
>>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> proceedings?
>>
>>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>
>> It worked last night.
>
> So you say.
>
>>> Here's a working link:
>
>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> Lavo's
>>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>>>
> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> didn't
>>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
> person
>>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>
> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
> blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
> points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
>
>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>> was that all about?
>
> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.
>
> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
> probably stole the cable.
>
> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
> seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>
> Stuff happens.
>
> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
> road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
> execute. I executed it and moved on.
>
> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
> minimal configuration of a business computer.
>
> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
> technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
> working in.
>
> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.
>
> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
> it wrong.
>
> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>
> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.
>
> Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
> typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
> tracking distortion included.
>
> A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
> ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
> at the show has sunk to.
>
> I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
> signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
> I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
> the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
> technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?
>
> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
> actually get AV.
>
>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
> Debate?
>
> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
> should have been their audio childhood.
>
> If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
> is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
> technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
> broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>
>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>
> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
> were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
> experiments.
>
> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
> Primedia.
>
> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>
>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>
> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
> agree with the core ideals.
>
> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
> be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>
> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>
>> How's the food?
>
> Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
> that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
> me healthy and that was that.
>
>> Did you met any luminaries?
>
> I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
> from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.
>
>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
>
> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>
> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.
>
>
>

Dear Arny,

First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of yours
demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when you're
behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people. During your
appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was suffering from
painful hemorroids. I realize you were in a hostile territory but your
bravado here set certain expectations that you totally failed to fulfill. It
IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but it is not okay to brag to be
something else when you fail in the spotlight . :-)

At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to display
appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.

However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a self-absorbed
babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many of the rooms sounded
quite mediocre given the price of the systems - makes you wonder why people
buy some of that stuff. And the Bösendorfer speakers' failure to perform was
sadly comparable to yours.

Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John Atkinson
accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot does not take his
own laptop and a projector with him under those circumstances? DUH! Just in
case you have fallen off the tech wagon, :-) I have a powerful traveling
setup that weighs less than 10 lbs and it goes everywhere I go on business.
You get no pity points from me for that. It just shows that you're a shoddy
amateur.

On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked very
nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open shirt. Maybe
you should ask John Atkinson. :-)

Cheers,

Margaret

[Lionel]

In >, Clyde Slick wrote :

>
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In >, whosbest54 wrote :
>>
>>> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
>>> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
>>> method, but on your opinion/feelings.
>>
>> How to be a hero without few magic legend ?
>>
>> ;-)
>
> Maybe you can relate a poignant tale from the sewers.

Once upon a time an ugly, sickly and shy rambling knight named Art Sackman
has paid 5 Euros for a small bottle of water in CDG airport...

:-D

[Clyde Slick]

"Margaret von B." > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked very
> nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open shirt.
> Maybe you should ask John Atkinson. :-)
>

Arny looked quite the 70's Luddite.
If irony danced to disco!



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[Clyde Slick]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> In >, Clyde Slick wrote :
>
>>
>> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In >, whosbest54 wrote :
>>>
>>>> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
>>>> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
>>>> method, but on your opinion/feelings.
>>>
>>> How to be a hero without few magic legend ?
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>
>> Maybe you can relate a poignant tale from the sewers.
>
> Once upon a time an ugly, sickly and shy rambling knight named Art Sackman
> has paid 5 Euros for a small bottle of water in CDG airport...
>
> :-D

Yes, the lack of choice was appalling.



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[Lionel]

In >, Margaret von B. wrote :

>
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> EddieM wrote:
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote
>>
>>>>> EddieM wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Victor Martell wrote
>>
>>>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
>> proceedings?
>>>
>>>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>>
>>> It worked last night.
>>
>> So you say.
>>
>>>> Here's a working link:
>>
>>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>>
>>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>> Lavo's
>>>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>>>>
>> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
>> didn't
>>>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
>> person
>>>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>>
>> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
>> blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
>> points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
>>
>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>> was that all about?
>>
>> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
>> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
>> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
>> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.
>>
>> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
>> probably stole the cable.
>>
>> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
>> seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
>> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>>
>> Stuff happens.
>>
>> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
>> road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
>> execute. I executed it and moved on.
>>
>> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
>> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
>> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
>> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
>> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
>> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
>> minimal configuration of a business computer.
>>
>> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
>> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
>> technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
>> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
>> working in.
>>
>> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
>> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
>> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.
>>
>> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
>> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
>> it wrong.
>>
>> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
>> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
>> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
>> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
>> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
>> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>>
>> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
>> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
>> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.
>>
>> Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
>> typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
>> tracking distortion included.
>>
>> A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
>> ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
>> at the show has sunk to.
>>
>> I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
>> signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
>> I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
>> the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
>> technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?
>>
>> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
>> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
>> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
>> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
>> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
>> actually get AV.
>>
>>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
>> Debate?
>>
>> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
>> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
>> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
>> should have been their audio childhood.
>>
>> If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
>> is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
>> technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
>> broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>>
>>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>>
>> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
>> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
>> were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
>> experiments.
>>
>> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
>> Primedia.
>>
>> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
>> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
>> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
>> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>>
>>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>>
>> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
>> agree with the core ideals.
>>
>> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
>> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
>> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
>> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
>> be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
>> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
>> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>>
>> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
>> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
>> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
>> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>>
>>> How's the food?
>>
>> Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
>> that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
>> me healthy and that was that.
>>
>>> Did you met any luminaries?
>>
>> I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
>> from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.
>>
>>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
>>
>> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
>> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>>
>> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
>> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
>> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Dear Arny,
>
> First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of yours
> demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when you're
> behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people. During your
> appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was suffering from
> painful hemorroids. I realize you were in a hostile territory but your
> bravado here set certain expectations that you totally failed to fulfill.
> It IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but it is not okay to brag to be
> something else when you fail in the spotlight . :-)
>
> At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to display
> appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.
>
> However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a self-absorbed
> babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many of the rooms sounded
> quite mediocre given the price of the systems - makes you wonder why
> people buy some of that stuff. And the Bösendorfer speakers' failure to
> perform was sadly comparable to yours.
>
> Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John
> Atkinson accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot does
> not take his own laptop and a projector with him under those
> circumstances? DUH! Just in case you have fallen off the tech wagon, :-) I
> have a powerful traveling setup that weighs less than 10 lbs and it goes
> everywhere I go on business.

Because you are a professional Maggy. This equipment is part of your panoply
of sales-droïd.

> You get no pity points from me for that. It
> just shows that you're a shoddy amateur.

Amateur ? Sounds to me that it is for this quality that Arnold has been
invited by John Atkinson who is a professional.
Are you sure to have correctly understood the prose and cons of this
debate ?
This was a debate between amateurs and professionals Maggy, nothing else...

> On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked very
> nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open shirt.
> Maybe you should ask John Atkinson. :-)

And Arnold can teach John how to manipulate a razor.

In conclusion if you attended to the debate your above report his as
indigent as your understanding of its origin.

You're welcome.

[George M. Middius]

Richard [sic] said:

> >But it wasn't broken when it was first posted - was it, Richard?
> >You have a thing for Arny Krueger?

> I can only tell you that, for whatever reason, it did not work for me
> yesterday and that is a fact.

There were two different links. Are you aware of that, or did Krooger
enlist you as a soldier in his "debating trade" army?

> Exactly what kind of "thing" would you be referring to Tom or is this
> some kind of homophobic reference?

Another newbie......

> Since I do not know Arny,

You don't? Well, I guess you can have some latitude if that's the case.

> Inane comments like yours from individuals, who obviously have
> psychological "issues", are cognitively challenged or both are why I
> seldom respond to this group.

Now you're talking about Krooger again. He's mentally ill. Perhaps this is
another thing you didn't know.

> p.s. Tom PLONK!

Recovering from an infection of Kroopologism isn't easy. You might want to
reconsider plonking Tom, because he's one of the few who shook it off.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote:

> Yeah, "George", let's compare Arny's credibility to yours. Arny went
> to NYC and had a public face-to-face with Atkinson. Will you have a
> public face-to-face with Arny Krueger?
> Will you call him "****ful One", "Turdborg", "Mr.
> ****","****-for-brains", "pedophile", etc., to his face?
>
> <snicker>

First, George would have to become part of the real world.

[MINe 109]

In article >,
whosbest54 > wrote:

> And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
> aren't important, even if they exist.

And sometimes they're important even if they don't exist...

Stephen

[Lionel]

In >, MINe 109 wrote :

> In article >,
> whosbest54 > wrote:
>
>> And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
>> aren't important, even if they exist.
>
> And sometimes they're important even if they don't exist...

:-)

[Arny Krueger]

Margaret von B. wrote:

> First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of
yours
> demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when
> you're behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people.

I take it that you were present at the HE2005 debate?

> During your appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was
> suffering from painful hemorroids.

That must have been during Harry's defecation sequence.

> I realize you were in a hostile
> territory but your bravado here set certain expectations that you
> totally failed to fulfill.

Why don't you ask Atkinson if I made a secret of my opinion of the
quality of the other presentations that I attended?

> It IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but
> it is not okay to brag to be something else when you fail in the
> spotlight . :-)

What failure?

> At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to
display
> appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.

I didn't notice any females in the room during the presentation.

> However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a
> self-absorbed babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many
of
> the rooms sounded quite mediocre given the price of the systems -
> makes you wonder why people buy some of that stuff. And the
> Bösendorfer speakers' failure to perform was sadly comparable to
> yours.

OK Maggies, let's talk about your failure to identify yourself to me,
oh vacuously brave one.

> Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John
> Atkinson accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot
> does not take his own laptop and a projector with him under those
> circumstances?

One who is under the impression that he is not flying off the edge of
the civilized world.

>DUH! Just in case you have fallen off the tech wagon,
> :-) I have a powerful traveling setup that weighs less than 10 lbs
> and it goes everywhere I go on business. You get no pity points from
> me for that. It just shows that you're a shoddy amateur.

It just shows that I'm too much of a trusting soul.

> On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked
> very nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open
> shirt. Maybe you should ask John Atkinson. :-)

For the record I wasn't wearing a suit. Any real woman or gay man who
was actually in the room would know that. Thanks for proving yourself
to be a liar again, Maggie.

[Margaret von B.]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> In >, Margaret von B. wrote :
>
>>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> EddieM wrote:
>>>>> Arny Krueger wrote
>>>
>>>>>> EddieM wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Victor Martell wrote
>>>
>>>>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
>>> proceedings?
>>>>
>>>>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>>>
>>>> It worked last night.
>>>
>>> So you say.
>>>
>>>>> Here's a working link:
>>>
>>>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>>>
>>>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>>> Lavo's
>>>>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>>>>>
>>> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
>>> didn't
>>>>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
>>> person
>>>>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>>>
>>> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
>>> blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
>>> points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
>>>
>>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>>> was that all about?
>>>
>>> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
>>> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
>>> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
>>> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.
>>>
>>> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
>>> probably stole the cable.
>>>
>>> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
>>> seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
>>> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>>>
>>> Stuff happens.
>>>
>>> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
>>> road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
>>> execute. I executed it and moved on.
>>>
>>> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
>>> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
>>> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
>>> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
>>> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
>>> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
>>> minimal configuration of a business computer.
>>>
>>> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
>>> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
>>> technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
>>> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
>>> working in.
>>>
>>> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
>>> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
>>> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.
>>>
>>> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
>>> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
>>> it wrong.
>>>
>>> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
>>> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
>>> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
>>> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
>>> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
>>> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>>>
>>> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
>>> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
>>> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.
>>>
>>> Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
>>> typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
>>> tracking distortion included.
>>>
>>> A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
>>> ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
>>> at the show has sunk to.
>>>
>>> I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
>>> signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
>>> I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
>>> the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
>>> technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?
>>>
>>> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
>>> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
>>> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
>>> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
>>> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
>>> actually get AV.
>>>
>>>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
>>> Debate?
>>>
>>> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
>>> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
>>> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
>>> should have been their audio childhood.
>>>
>>> If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
>>> is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
>>> technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
>>> broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>>>
>>>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>>>
>>> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
>>> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
>>> were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
>>> experiments.
>>>
>>> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
>>> Primedia.
>>>
>>> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
>>> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
>>> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
>>> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>>>
>>>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>>>
>>> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
>>> agree with the core ideals.
>>>
>>> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
>>> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
>>> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
>>> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
>>> be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
>>> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
>>> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>>>
>>> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
>>> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
>>> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
>>> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>>>
>>>> How's the food?
>>>
>>> Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
>>> that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
>>> me healthy and that was that.
>>>
>>>> Did you met any luminaries?
>>>
>>> I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
>>> from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.
>>>
>>>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
>>>
>>> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
>>> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>>>
>>> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
>>> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
>>> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Dear Arny,
>>
>> First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of yours
>> demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when you're
>> behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people. During your
>> appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was suffering from
>> painful hemorroids. I realize you were in a hostile territory but your
>> bravado here set certain expectations that you totally failed to fulfill.
>> It IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but it is not okay to brag to be
>> something else when you fail in the spotlight . :-)
>>
>> At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to display
>> appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.
>>
>> However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a self-absorbed
>> babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many of the rooms sounded
>> quite mediocre given the price of the systems - makes you wonder why
>> people buy some of that stuff. And the Bösendorfer speakers' failure to
>> perform was sadly comparable to yours.
>>
>> Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John
>> Atkinson accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot does
>> not take his own laptop and a projector with him under those
>> circumstances? DUH! Just in case you have fallen off the tech wagon, :-)
>> I
>> have a powerful traveling setup that weighs less than 10 lbs and it goes
>> everywhere I go on business.
>
> Squeak squeak squeak.....

Ah, it is Arny's self-appointed little gerbil. :-)

Margaret

[Margaret von B.]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> Margaret von B. wrote:
>
>> First of all I applaud you for showing up. However this post of
> yours
>> demonstrates clearly that your bark is much more impressive when
>> you're behind a keyboard than when you're live in front of people.
>
> I take it that you were present at the HE2005 debate?
>

What a waste of time that was!

>> During your appearance you looked like an insecure aging man who was
>> suffering from painful hemorroids.
>
> That must have been during Harry's defecation sequence.
>

No. That seemed to be the default expression. In fact, a doctor friend of
mine remarked that you come across like a person who is on Zoloft. I hope
he's wrong because I have nothing against you.

>> I realize you were in a hostile
>> territory but your bravado here set certain expectations that you
>> totally failed to fulfill.
>
> Why don't you ask Atkinson if I made a secret of my opinion of the
> quality of the other presentations that I attended?
>

There we go again. Too bad you didn't execute during the debate so the rest
of us could have witnessed it.

>> It IS okay to be a small-timer, Arny, but
>> it is not okay to brag to be something else when you fail in the
>> spotlight . :-)
>
> What failure?
>

Failure to hold your own. You lost.

>> At any rate now that your cover is blown I would expect you to
> display
>> appropriate humility in the future toward your fellow small-timers.
>
> I didn't notice any females in the room during the presentation.
>

Really, Mr. Deer-in-the-headlights? :-)

>> However I agree with some of your observations. Lavo was a
>> self-absorbed babbling idiot who obviously is big on himself. Many
> of
>> the rooms sounded quite mediocre given the price of the systems -
>> makes you wonder why people buy some of that stuff. And the
>> Bösendorfer speakers' failure to perform was sadly comparable to
>> yours.
>
> OK Maggies, let's talk about your failure to identify yourself to me,
> oh vacuously brave one.
>

Your expression wasn't exactly inviting. And I left before the end of the
nonevent anyway.

>> Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John
>> Atkinson accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot
>> does not take his own laptop and a projector with him under those
>> circumstances?
>
> One who is under the impression that he is not flying off the edge of
> the civilized world.
>

Excuses excuses excuses - as usual.

>>DUH! Just in case you have fallen off the tech wagon,
>> :-) I have a powerful traveling setup that weighs less than 10 lbs
>> and it goes everywhere I go on business. You get no pity points from
>> me for that. It just shows that you're a shoddy amateur.
>
> It just shows that I'm too much of a trusting soul.
>

It shows you're a fool. That's all.

>> On a positive note, I was surprised to see you in a suit. It looked
>> very nice on you but somebody needs to teach you how to wear an open
>> shirt. Maybe you should ask John Atkinson. :-)
>
> For the record I wasn't wearing a suit. Any real woman or gay man who
> was actually in the room would know that. Thanks for proving yourself
> to be a liar again, Maggie.
>

I guess I wasn't looking closely enough. I always thought that you look like
Jeffrey Dahmer and it scares me. And when you make statements like above, I
get even more scared. BTW, I'm serious. Just pull up Dahmer's picture and
imagine him in his early sixties or late fifties.

Perhaps if you are nicer to me I will one day introduce myself to you
without the presence of my Wolfhounds. :-)

Cheers,

Margaret

[Lionel_Chapuis]

"Margaret von B." wrote:


> Ah, it is Arny's self-appointed little gerbil. :-)

You prefer to be an hypocrit old whore, eh "Margaret" ?




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

[Margaret von B.]

<Lionel_Chapuis> wrote in message
...
> "Margaret von B." wrote:
>
>
>> Ah, it is Arny's self-appointed little gerbil. :-)
>
> You prefer to be an hypocrit old whore, eh "Margaret" ?
> squeak squeak squeak

:-)

Margaret

[Lionel]

In >, Margaret von B. wrote :

>
> <Lionel_Chapuis> wrote in message
>
...
>> "Margaret von B." wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ah, it is Arny's self-appointed little gerbil. :-)
>>
>> You prefer to be an hypocrit old whore, eh "Margaret" ?
>> squeak squeak squeak
>
> :-)

:-D


> Margaret

[John Atkinson]

whosbest54 wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
> >>> Here's a working link:
> >>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
> >
> This is all I've seen of the debate other than the posts to this
> thread. If there will be audio or video posted to this site, that
> would be nice.

As I wrote in another posting, the audio recording of the debate
will be available some time in the next week as a streamed file.
Arny has already assured me that he trsuts me not to change anything
in the mastering of the file. However, I am sending him the original
AIF file so he can compare what we make available on the Stereophile
website with the original.

> John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in
> the text.

I haven't yet published anything on the debate, so have nothing to
correct. Please be assured that when I do, Arny's name will be
correctly spelled. And as one of the participants, I don't think it
appropriate for Arny or me to write any comments. I will leave that to
members of the audience.

I am sorry about the misspelling of Arny's name. I had registered
him at the Show as "Arnold Krueger," so I do not know why his
name tag said anything different. Put it down to brain fade on
the part of our hard-working event staff.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[whosbest54]

In article . com>,
says...
>
>whosbest54 wrote:
>
>> John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in
>> the text.
>
>I haven't yet published anything on the debate, so have nothing to
>correct. Please be assured that when I do, Arny's name will be
>correctly spelled. And as one of the participants, I don't think it
>appropriate for Arny or me to write any comments. I will leave that to
>members of the audience.
>
>I am sorry about the misspelling of Arny's name. I had registered
>him at the Show as "Arnold Krueger," so I do not know why his
>name tag said anything different. Put it down to brain fade on
>the part of our hard-working event staff.
>
>John Atkinson
>Editor, Stereophile
>
John, based on the content of the site I give the URL for below, I had
assumed you had control over the text posted there. It seems to say that
the organization responsible for the site had something to do with
hosting the debate. If I was mistaken, I apologize.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[Surf]

plonk this, Richie.......

"Richard" > wrote
>>
>>But it wasn't broken when it was first posted - was it, Richard?
>>You have a thing for Arny Krueger?
>>
> I can only tell you that, for whatever reason, it did not work for me
> yesterday and that is a fact.

Yesterday isn't when it was first posted, dim. It worked when it was
first posted. But you chose to buddy up with Arny. Good choice.

> Exactly what kind of "thing" would you be referring to Tom or is this
> some kind of homophobic reference? If that is the case, it says
> volumes about your character and mental state.

You're full of ****, richie. "Thing" could mean a number of different
things. But you chose to infer a homosexual thing. I guess that says
volumes about you.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> EddieM wrote:
> >> Victor Martell" > wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?
>
> > http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html
>
>
> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>
> Here's a working link:
>
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>

The first link WAS correct though it was MY FAULT as i, in an honest
error, misspelt Arnie's last name. So i made the appropriate
corrections that were needed in the original file. Please accept my
apology for the error on my part.


> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

Agreed his question was VERY long-winded. The photo was taken at the
very beginning of the debate (i was the person in the red shirt in the
front row just in front of you).

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> It's possible that the earlier link worked - if the Enjoythemusic
> author couldn't properly spell my name right the first time. It has
> happened.
>
> Note that despite my attempts with John to get my first name spelled
> "Arny", my name-card at the debate was misspelled.

Will correct the first name error on the website right now. Was going
by your Stereophile show name card. You are 100% correct about my
previous last name error and made the correction. Excellent
observation.

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[John Atkinson]

whosbest54 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> >whosbest54 wrote:
> >> John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in
> >> the text.
> >
> >I haven't yet published anything on the debate, so have nothing to
> >correct. Please be assured that when I do, Arny's name will be
> >correctly spelled.
>
> based on the content of the site I give the URL for below, I had
> assumed you had control over the text posted there.

No, there is no connection between Stephen Rochlin's "Enjoy the
Music" audio webzine and Stereophile.

> It seems to say that the organization responsible for the site
> had something to do with hosting the debate. If I was mistaken,
> I apologize.
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

No apology necessary. The debate was hosted by Stereophile at
Primedia's just-finished Home Entertainment 2005 Show in
Manhattan. We unfortuantely spelled Arny as "Arnie" on the tent
card on the presenter's table. Stephen attended the debate as an
independent member of the press and posted his comments at his own
website.

As I said, the audio recording of the debate -- including Arny's
version of the "scream heard around the world" -- will be made
available at www.stereophile.com in the near future.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[[email protected]]

John Atkinson wrote:
> whosbest54 wrote:> No, there is no connection between Stephen
Rochlin's "Enjoy the
> Music" audio webzine and Stereophile.

Agreed, there is no connection. FYI: got a :-) as my first name is
spelt Steven :) Hey, this is great! For the first time in many
years i am getting joy and a :-) from RAO.

BTW: JA, enjoyed listening to your jazz trio's wonderful musicianship
this afternoon during the show.

Enjoy the Music,

Stephen, er, um, Steven R. Rochlin :) :) :)
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[John Atkinson]

Richard wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >Note that despite my attempts with John to get my first name
> spelled "Arny", my name-card at the debate was misspelled.

Please note that there were no "attempts." Arny brought the
unfortunate misspelling to my attention when I entered the venue.
I apologized and Arny said it was not a big deal. I thought that
would be the end of the matter.

> I am also surprised to hear that someone of John Atkinson's
> stature was not together enough to provide promised equipment
> for the presentation.

If you read my explanation elsewhere in this thread, you will have
seen that Murphy's Law struck with a vengeance, taking out both the
supplied PC and the backup. Arny could have used my own laptop
for his presentation, but at the possible expense of the promised
recording. I explained what had happened, in the spirit of "the show
must go on," Arny said he would read from printouts of his Powerpoint
slide show, and we went ahead rather than keep the audience waiting
any longer.

I regret these two errors, of course, but please note that everything
else to do with the logistics of Arny Krueger's presentation in New
York appeared to go as planned.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[John Atkinson]

wrote:
> John Atkinson wrote:
> there is no connection between Stephen Rochlin's "Enjoy the
> Music" audio webzine and Stereophile.
>
> Agreed, there is no connection. FYI: got a :-) as my first name is
> spelt Steven :)

Oh ****! Sorry Steven, I have just been copy-editing Stephen
Mejias' Day 4 on-line report from the Show and confused my
"v"s and "ph"es. :-(

> JA, enjoyed listening to your jazz trio's wonderful musicianship
> this afternoon during the show.

Thanks Steven. I kid my bosses that the real reason Stereophile does
a Show is to give my band a gig once a year :-)

But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about. I thought I saw
Arny and Tom Nousaine taking in their concert, BTW.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Mike McKelvy]

Michael Conzo said:

>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster,
showed
>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It wasn't
necessary
>to pay equal respect to the audience, for they didn't come to hear
>nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger. And your lack of proper
>preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the debate made the effort
clearly
>biased by Stereophile. Any competent engineer tests his gear in situ
before
>a big gig. Your failures in this regard are frankly inexcusable.

But completely expected.

[George M. Middius]

John Atkinson said:

> I regret these two errors, of course, but please note that everything
> else to do with the logistics of Arny Krueger's presentation in New
> York appeared to go as planned.

I thought the plan was for Arnii's head to explode. ;-)

[[email protected]]

Hi Everyone,

Ok, now that i have corrected the name spelling error (apologies to
all and was quite surprised there was so much debate about it and
slings/arrows thrown), how about we get back to the main subject at
hand? Arny did indeed appear to be less hostile in person. Found this
to be refreshing as the debate appeared to generally STAY ON TOPIC AND
FOLLOW A NATURAL PROGRESSION.

As someone who once truly enjoyed RAO many years ago, this newsgroups
appears to have really degraded. The arguing about spelling errors, the
constant name calling, and personal attacks that have nothing to do
with the topic/subject at hand is quite childish. Would truly enjoy
seeing RAO circa 2000 or so, though that time has long since past (am
referring also to pre Zipser).

So the blow by blow i posted was as fast as i could type and comprehend
without any topic/subject changing editorial. It appears neither JA nor
AK disagree with what was typed by yours truly. While i am leaving for
Munich shortly and may not be able to post here to fully follow this
thread each day, my hopes are that my posting may help to bring a sense
of "Ok, Steven of Enjoy the Music.com made an honest mistake and we
should try to make sure it is properly corrected." There is no need to
call each other names or make personal attacks about it. Could we
please, with sugar on top and a cherry, find a way to bring RAO's S/N
level to more signal?

Debates such as JA vs. AK is a good thing. It showed that two adults
can debate without name calling, personal attacks, etc. If we could
apply this same professionalism here on RAO it would probably be
greatly appreciated by many others. Please feel free to look at RAO's
archives and see how it was in the early days.

Wish everyone here all the very best and hope this post will, in some
small way, help others to see we truly could use more signal. Different
opinions are fine, provided they are debated in an adult manner. IMHO
JA and AK proved that at the PRIMEDIA (Stereophile) show.

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[Clyde Slick]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> As I said, the audio recording of the debate -- including Arny's
> version of the "scream heard around the world" -- will be made
> available at www.stereophile.com in the near future.
>

Gov. Dean was there?



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[[email protected]]

John Atkinson wrote:
> Oh f--k! Sorry Steven, I have just been copy-editing Stephen
> Mejias' Day 4 on-line report from the Show and confused my
> "v"s and "ph"es. :-(

Totally fine, no worries. Have done the SAME thing myself when
editing articles. When writing for a European magazine, then for my US
publication, i fine it favourable to remember which target country
colours and the proper English employed accordingly :) :)

Been a long time since i have really participated here on RAO. This is
as good a time as any :)


> Thanks Steven. I kid my bosses that the real reason Stereophile does
> a Show is to give my band a gig once a year :-)

:)


> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.


Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
recordings.

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[Robert Morein]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Morein a écrit :
> > "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>In article om, "John
> >>Atkinson" > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
> >>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
> >>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
> >>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
> >>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
> >>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
> >>
> >>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
> >>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
> >
> >
> > "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
> > I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
> > His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
> > usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been
attempts at
> > investment fraud.
>
> We are on RAO Bob !!!
Lionel,
McCarty is not like us. His activities have in the past had the
appearance of investment fraud. His website, "Coral Sea Studios", was at one
time populated by many false endorsements, including my name. His
"worldjazz" website used fictitious front people and stolen identities from
unsuspecting people. I have copies of these pages. Many people suspect him
of email "bombing" and propagation of computer viruses. The FBI determined
that he used a false identity to infiltrate a film project I was running.
Charges were presented by the FBI to the U.S. Attorney's office, District of
Connecticut. At the time, they chose not to prosecute. However, this is a
discretionary choice of the U.S. Attorney's office, even if he may have
violated statutes. The records of the investigation remain in the records of
the FBI, available by subpoena to anyone who wishes to file a civil suit
against him.

Last fall, there was intervention at the level of "head of state" to
stop McCarty's schemes. This appears to have succeeded.

There is no one like McCarty on this group. Everyone I know and argue
with on rao is, IMHO, a good and upstanding citizen. This includes Arny. I
may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who I
would change a tire for. As I would for anyone else.

I urge that we not give McCarty or his sockpuppets the legitimacy he
desires. He is not a good man.

[Clyde Slick]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who I
> would change a tire for.

I would present him with a nice necklace.



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[EddieM]

> Arny Krueger wrote
>> EddieM wrote:
>
>
>
>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
>> Debate?
>
> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
> should have been their audio childhood.



Thanks for your reply Mr. Krueger. Just as every audiophiles accross
audio newsgroups, I shall look forward to the recorded event of the
Debate on-line courtesy of the Stereophile organization.

Good thing this time, we won't have to be concern with unintentional
misspellings.

[Margaret von B.]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Ok, now that i have corrected the name spelling error (apologies to
> all and was quite surprised there was so much debate about it and
> slings/arrows thrown), how about we get back to the main subject at
> hand? Arny did indeed appear to be less hostile in person. Found this
> to be refreshing as the debate appeared to generally STAY ON TOPIC AND
> FOLLOW A NATURAL PROGRESSION.
>
> As someone who once truly enjoyed RAO many years ago, this newsgroups
> appears to have really degraded. The arguing about spelling errors, the
> constant name calling, and personal attacks that have nothing to do
> with the topic/subject at hand is quite childish. Would truly enjoy
> seeing RAO circa 2000 or so, though that time has long since past (am
> referring also to pre Zipser).
>
> So the blow by blow i posted was as fast as i could type and comprehend
> without any topic/subject changing editorial. It appears neither JA nor
> AK disagree with what was typed by yours truly. While i am leaving for
> Munich shortly and may not be able to post here to fully follow this
> thread each day, my hopes are that my posting may help to bring a sense
> of "Ok, Steven of Enjoy the Music.com made an honest mistake and we
> should try to make sure it is properly corrected." There is no need to
> call each other names or make personal attacks about it. Could we
> please, with sugar on top and a cherry, find a way to bring RAO's S/N
> level to more signal?
>
> Debates such as JA vs. AK is a good thing. It showed that two adults
> can debate without name calling, personal attacks, etc.

I'm sure you mean well Stephan but the truth is that it was not informative,
it was not stimulating and it was certainly not entertaining. In fact it was
a major snoozefest. Even the Toney vs. Ruiz that I attended on Saturday
night was more of a surprise than the so called "debate". If you know
anything about boxing, it was Ruiz vs. Ruiz kind of matchup.

>If we could
> apply this same professionalism here on RAO it would probably be
> greatly appreciated by many others.

A good idea Stephane but there are too many folks here who have no other
content in their lives and no other avenues to feel their power.

>Please feel free to look at RAO's
> archives and see how it was in the early days.
>
> Wish everyone here all the very best and hope this post will, in some
> small way, help others to see we truly could use more signal. Different
> opinions are fine, provided they are debated in an adult manner. IMHO
> JA and AK proved that at the PRIMEDIA (Stereophile) show.
>

The mayoral race here in San Antonio is 1000 times more interesting.

> Enjoy the Music,
>
> Steven R. Rochlin
> www.EnjoyTheMusic.com
>

What do you have against the late Mr. Zipser, Mr. Rocklin? I never had the
pleasure of knowing him but in retrospect he was truly a witty and acerbicly
funny man. Men like that are extinct here these days. Sorry but I just
cannot agree with you except on one point. RAO really sucks because audio is
only an excuse to promote some of the most pathetic stuff on God's green
earth. Like one dorj named Festler and his plagiarized ramblings that got
him "published". But some people just love to be caned I guess.

Have a safe trip to Munich Stephanie!

[GeoSynch]

Clyde Slick wrote:

> Robert Morein wrote:

>> may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who I
>> would change a tire for.

> I would present him with a nice necklace.

A Colombian necktie to precede the tire necklace for 'Conzo' McLardo?


GeoSynch

[Margaret von B.]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> EddieM wrote:
>>> Arny Krueger wrote
>
>>>> EddieM wrote:
>
>>>>> Victor Martell wrote
>
>>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> proceedings?
>>
>>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>
>> It worked last night.
>
> So you say.
>
>>> Here's a working link:
>
>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> Lavo's
>>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>>>
> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> didn't
>>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
> person
>>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>
> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
> blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
> points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
>

Is THAT what happened, Mr. Deer-in-the-Headlights? :-) :-) :-)

In fact Atkinson had you in his crosshairs most of the time but being either
a merciful or timid hunter did not pull the trigger, Mr. Deer.

>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>> was that all about?
>
> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
> bunch of video projectors at my church

WOW! I did not know you had a managerial background. Be sure to include it
in your resume.

> - that exact cable accompanies
> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.
>

Organizing the Stereophile show is certainly nothing compared to that.
Verrry impressive!

> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
> probably stole the cable.
>

I wondered what that was in Nousiaine's pants. I thought maybe he was just
happy to be with you. LOL!

> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
> seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>

I agree. Atkinson should have clearly employed your extensive management
talent to pull off the show.

> Stuff happens.
>
> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
> road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
> execute. I executed it and moved on.
>

Too bad it wasn't apparent to the audience. Unless it was your "scared
ostrich" technique. You still have sand in your ears?

> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
> minimal configuration of a business computer.
>
> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
> technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
> working in.
>

You blended in that context exceedingly well, I might add.

> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.
>
> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
> it wrong.
>
> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>
> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.
>
> Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
> typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
> tracking distortion included.
>
> A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
> ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
> at the show has sunk to.
>
> I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
> signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
> I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
> the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
> technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?
>
> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
> actually get AV.
>

I'm sure AV is a piece of cake compared to managing MULTIPLE projectors at a
church.

>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
> Debate?
>
> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
> should have been their audio childhood.
>

Maybe they had happy childhoods. At least they seemed like a happy group
with no chronic bitterness in them.

> If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
> is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
> technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
> broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>

Look in the mirror to find why your listening technology has failed. Even
better, listen to the recording.

>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>
> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
> were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
> experiments.
>

In that case it is pretty sad that Atkinson handily outperformed you. You
never even got off the starting blocks, Mr. Projector Executive.

> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
> Primedia.
>
> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>

You could use some of Fremer's qualities, you know. I know it IS sad.

>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>
> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
> agree with the core ideals.
>

I'm glad it felt like home! BTW, you strongly contributed to the above
climate.

> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
> be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>
> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
> products were sonic crap.

I'm sure they would have appreciated your church projector executive
experience. :-)

>But a few bright spots aside, this was a
> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>
>> How's the food?
>
> Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
> that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
> me healthy and that was that.
>
>> Did you met any luminaries?
>
> I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
> from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.
>
>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
>
> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>
> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.
>

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip so much. Next time don't forget to take the
cross on your back.

Good night, Jesus!

Margaret

[Margaret von B.]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Robert Morein a écrit :
>> > "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>In article om, "John
>> >>Atkinson" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>> >>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>> >>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>> >>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>> >>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>> >>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>> >>
>> >>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
>> >>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
>> > I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
>> > His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
>> > usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been
> attempts at
>> > investment fraud.
>>
>> We are on RAO Bob !!!
> Lionel,
> McCarty is not like us. His activities have in the past had the
> appearance of investment fraud. His website, "Coral Sea Studios", was at
> one
> time populated by many false endorsements, including my name. His
> "worldjazz" website used fictitious front people and stolen identities
> from
> unsuspecting people. I have copies of these pages. Many people suspect him
> of email "bombing" and propagation of computer viruses. The FBI determined
> that he used a false identity to infiltrate a film project I was running.
> Charges were presented by the FBI to the U.S. Attorney's office, District
> of
> Connecticut. At the time, they chose not to prosecute. However, this is a
> discretionary choice of the U.S. Attorney's office, even if he may have
> violated statutes. The records of the investigation remain in the records
> of
> the FBI, available by subpoena to anyone who wishes to file a civil suit
> against him.
>
> Last fall, there was intervention at the level of "head of state" to
> stop McCarty's schemes. This appears to have succeeded.
>
> There is no one like McCarty on this group. Everyone I know and argue
> with on rao is, IMHO, a good and upstanding citizen. This includes Arny. I
> may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who I
> would change a tire for. As I would for anyone else.
>

I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with Arnie
as well.

Cheers!

Margaret

[Robert Morein]

"GeoSynch" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Clyde Slick wrote:
>
> > Robert Morein wrote:
>
> >> may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone
who I
> >> would change a tire for.
>
> > I would present him with a nice necklace.
>
> A Colombian necktie to precede the tire necklace for 'Conzo' McLardo?
>
>
> GeoSynch
>
It's mystifying why he's so addicted to sockpuppets.
Even after we found out where he lives, where he works, what he owns, what
land he doesn't own, and who he's tried to go into business with.
Take a look at the below text version of one of his websites, "Coral Seas",
on 11/12/02.
At the time, I was pointing out that he was using fraudulent endorsements.
It seems he wanted to show me he could get away with anything; see line 5.

As for the necktie, it's not necessary. A scammer has great difficulty after
he is exposed. It's like he's been sprayed in fluorescent dye.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
PALM COVE, QUEENSLAND, AUSTRALIA
"WORTH THE WAIT" Los Angeles Magazine Weekly
"The First Resort Recording Facility with
World Class technology AND location!" Pro Sound Asia Pacific
"Tell me when you're booking - I'll be there!" Director/Producer Bob Morein
BUILDING & DEVELOPMENT APPROVALS RECEIVED
ACCESS ROAD OPENED - INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADE STARTED
CONSTRUCTION CONTRACT FINALISED
WEBCAM TO BE ACTIVATED SHORTLY
DESIGN TEAM:
ACOUSTIC DESIGN GROUP (U.K.) JOHN FLYNN / SAM TOYOSHIMA
TECHNICAL DESIGN: MARTIN BENGE / NEIL ALDRIDGE (MUSIC)
KEN SKIMMING (FILM, TELEVISION, MULTIMEDIA)
ALL ROOMS DESIGNED FOR 5.1 DIGITAL SURROUND FOR
FILM, DIGITAL TELEVISION, AND MUSIC PRODUCTION
EQUIPPED WITH EUPHONIX SYSTEM 5- II, DIGIDESIGN PROTOOLS HD,
SSL 9000J, SONY 3348HR,
ALL-FORMAT VIDEO PROJECTION, AND GENELEC MONITORING

ARCHITECT VIEW OF STUDIO BUILDING - OCEANFRONT ELEVATION
Founders & Directors: Brian L. McCarty & Jeffrey Wexler
Asia Market Coordinattor: David C.L. Feng (Livewire Ltd. H.K.)
LIVE SITECAM FEED STARTS LATE NOVEMBER
Coral Sea Studios P.O. Box 31 Clifton Beach, Qld 4879 AUSTRALIA
+61 (07) 4059-2888 +61 (07) 4059-2574 FAX
U.S. Office +1 (310) 388-1054
NOTE: SEVERAL ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN MADE TO "HACK" INTO THIS WEBSITE AS WELL AS
ATTEMPTS AT "IDENTITY THEFT" OF SEVERAL PERSONS ASSOCIATED WITH OUR PROJECT.
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF EMAIL YOU HAVE RECEIVED OR
OTHER INFORMATION THAT YOU MAY SEE, PLEASE CONTACT US IMMEDIATELY.
INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE PERPETRATORS IS CURRENTLY UNDERWAY.
Enter a City or US Zip:



Powered by:
OVER VISITORS SERVED

[Schizoid Man]

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>>
>> As I said, the audio recording of the debate -- including Arny's
>> version of the "scream heard around the world" -- will be made
>> available at www.stereophile.com in the near future.
>>
>
> Gov. Dean was there?

Surely you mean President Dean.

[Schizoid Man]

> wrote in message

>> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
>> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
>
>
> Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
> heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
> recordings.
>

I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?

[Schizoid Man]

"Margaret von B." > wrote in message

> I'm sure you mean well Stephan but the truth is that it was not
> informative,

> A good idea Stephane but there are too many folks here who have no other

> Have a safe trip to Munich Stephanie!

Were you high when you wrote this post?

Or is your spelling skill, or lack thereof, inversely proportional to the
length of the of the post.

[George M. Middius]

Schizoid Man said:

> > A good idea Stephane but there are too many folks here who have no other
>
> > Have a safe trip to Munich Stephanie!
>
> Were you high when you wrote this post?
>
> Or is your spelling skill, or lack thereof, inversely proportional to the
> length of the of the post.

Have you ever met Rochy? If so, you wouldn't be so cavalier about the
virtues of artificial highs.

[Lionel]

In >, Margaret von B. wrote :


> ...too many folks here who have no other
> content in their lives and no other avenues to feel their power.

Sure that you are speaking about George M. Middius, I'm right yes ?

[Lionel]

Margaret von B. wrote

> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with Arnie
> as well.

At least you have had a marvellous occasion to slap him in the face and what
have you done ?...
....You have left the room before the end of the debate, creeping like a
worm.

What were you recently writing about people who "who have no other avenues
to feel their power" ?

[Lionel]

In
>,
Lionel_Chapuis <> wrote :

> George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:
>
>> No response from Krooger. Admission of lizardness noted.
>
>
> Since Jim Morrison it's not an insult anymore...
>
>
>> > major sucessful attack on your credibility, Middius.
>>
>> <snicker>
>>
>> Shall we compare credibility, O ****ful One? When the video comes online,
>> we can see if your bite is as bad as your bark. How many times did you
>> accuse JA of "fraud" to his face? Zero, you say?
>
> Why to accuse JA to be a "fraud", eh George ?
> ..When the debate has proven that it's true !

*Ooops* !!!! I should have written :
"when the goal of the debate was to prove that it's true".

Personnally I don't think that Mr Atkinson is fraud.
In the world of the shoes-shinning edition, at least from a *technical*
point of view, Stereophile is doing a better job than 99% of the
competition.

[Lionel]

In >, Robert Morein wrote :

>
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Robert Morein a écrit :
>> > "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>In article om, "John
>> >>Atkinson" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
>> >>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
>> >>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
>> >>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
>> >>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
>> >>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
>> >>
>> >>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster, showed
>> >>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
>> > I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
>> > His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others on
>> > usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been
> attempts at
>> > investment fraud.
>>
>> We are on RAO Bob !!!
> Lionel,
> McCarty is not like us. His activities have in the past had the
> appearance of investment fraud. His website, "Coral Sea Studios", was at
> one time populated by many false endorsements, including my name. His
> "worldjazz" website used fictitious front people and stolen identities
> from unsuspecting people. I have copies of these pages. Many people
> suspect him of email "bombing" and propagation of computer viruses. The
> FBI determined that he used a false identity to infiltrate a film project
> I was running. Charges were presented by the FBI to the U.S. Attorney's
> office, District of Connecticut. At the time, they chose not to prosecute.
> However, this is a discretionary choice of the U.S. Attorney's office,
> even if he may have violated statutes. The records of the investigation
> remain in the records of the FBI, available by subpoena to anyone who
> wishes to file a civil suit against him.
>
> Last fall, there was intervention at the level of "head of state" to
> stop McCarty's schemes. This appears to have succeeded.
>
> There is no one like McCarty on this group. Everyone I know and argue
> with on rao is, IMHO, a good and upstanding citizen. This includes Arny. I
> may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who I
> would change a tire for. As I would for anyone else.
>
> I urge that we not give McCarty or his sockpuppets the legitimacy he
> desires. He is not a good man.

Sorry Bob I forgot the duplicity of the guy.

[Lionel]

In >, Margaret von B. wrote :


> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with Arnie
> as well.

At least you have had a marvellous occasion to slap him in the face and what
have you done "Margaret" ?...
....You have left the room before the end of the debate, creeping like a
worm.

What were you recently writing about people "who have no other avenues
to feel their power" ?

:-)

Cheers!

Lionel Chapuis

[Arny Krueger]

Margaret von B. wrote:
>
> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with
> Arnie as well.

Homocide becomes you, Maggie.

[Arny Krueger]

Mike McKelvy wrote:
> Michael Conzo said:
>
>> This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster,
>> showed incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It
>> wasn't necessary to pay equal respect to the audience, for they
>> didn't come to hear nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger. And
>> your lack of proper preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the
debate
>> made the effort clearly biased by Stereophile. Any competent
>> engineer tests his gear in situ before a big gig. Your failures in
>> this regard are frankly inexcusable.
>
> But completely expected.

Agreed. I saw this all coming and prepared for it the best I could.

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg puns itself to death.

> > I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with
> > Arnie as well.

> Homocide becomes you, Maggie.

Thank's for admitting Mr. Krooger that, its like you know you we're lying,
before, about the man in the rain-coat. LOt"S! ;-)

[George M. Middius]

The Big **** crows about his big defeat.

> Agreed. I saw this all coming and prepared for it the best I could.

Unfortunately for you, your entirely unscientific preparation of eating a
couple extra TurdBars™ did nothing to energize your feeble mind.

[[email protected]]

Margaret von B. wrote:
> What do you have against the late Mr. Zipser, Mr. Rocklin? I never
had the
> pleasure of knowing him but in retrospect he was truly a witty and
acerbicly
> funny man.

Steve was a fun guy and in fact we enjoyed some great meals together.
In fact i hung out with him and stayed in his home in S. FL on the
beach. Was simply giving a timeline.

> Have a safe trip to Munich Stephanie!

Thanks. Wheels up in a few hours. Fun fun fun on the autobahn :)

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[[email protected]]

Schizoid Man wrote:
> "Margaret von B." > wrote in
message
>
> > I'm sure you mean well Stephan but the truth is that it was not
> > informative,
>
> > A good idea Stephane but there are too many folks here who have no
other
>
> > Have a safe trip to Munich Stephanie!
>
> Were you high when you wrote this post?
>
> Or is your spelling skill, or lack thereof, inversely proportional to
the
> length of the of the post.

This is exactly what i mean. Ok, my name was not spelt correctly in the
post and i can simply ignore it.

Nothing else to see here, move along, move along :)

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[[email protected]]

Schizoid Man wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> >> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I
still
> >> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
> >
> >
> > Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time
i
> > heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now
old)
> > recordings.
> >
>
> I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King
Crimson?


You are right, we went off an a tangent. Basically we were discussing
how, perhaps, we might not fully appreciate different musical genres in
today's musicals atmosphere.

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
www.EnjoyTheMusic.com

[Arny Krueger]

wrote:

>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108 minute, more or less,
>> marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
didn't
>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
person
>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

> Agreed his question was VERY long-winded.

It was no question at all. It did save John from having to deal with
tough stuff.

There's an obvious inherent problem when the moderator is one of the
protaganists.

> The photo was taken at the very beginning of the debate (i was the
person in the red shirt in the
> front row just in front of you).

OK, that must have been when I was absorbing the deep-sixing of my
presentation.

[Arny Krueger]

Victor Martell wrote:

> I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I
> believe is tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow
by
> blow of the proceedings?

You can probably gauge the perceived outcome of the debate by the
delay before it is posted in full. ;-)

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Victor Martell wrote:
>
> > I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I
> > believe is tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow
> by
> > blow of the proceedings?
>
> You can probably gauge the perceived outcome of the debate by the
> delay before it is posted in full. ;-)
>
>
If it's not available by the end of today (5/2/05), I think we'll know
the answer. (Maybe Atkinson is looking for the new Rosemary Woods ;->)

[dave weil]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 07:12:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Margaret von B. wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with
>> Arnie as well.
>
>Homocide becomes you, Maggie.

Is this a Freudian Slip, Arnold?

If so, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Hopefully the family will
understand.

[whosbest54]

In article . com>,
says...
>
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
> Ok, now that i have corrected the name spelling error (apologies to
>all and was quite surprised there was so much debate about it and
>slings/arrows thrown), how about we get back to the main subject at
>hand? Arny did indeed appear to be less hostile in person. Found this
>to be refreshing as the debate appeared to generally STAY ON TOPIC AND
>FOLLOW A NATURAL PROGRESSION.
>
Thank you for correcting the spelling errors.

>As someone who once truly enjoyed RAO many years ago, this newsgroups
>appears to have really degraded. The arguing about spelling errors, the
>constant name calling, and personal attacks that have nothing to do
>with the topic/subject at hand is quite childish. Would truly enjoy
>seeing RAO circa 2000 or so, though that time has long since past (am
>referring also to pre Zipser).
>
I agree with you 100% Steven and have been saying so for years on my web
page. Not that it makes any difference with some posters. I don't think
it ever will, regardless what you or I say about trying to behave in a
civil manner.

>
>Debates such as JA vs. AK is a good thing. It showed that two adults
>can debate without name calling, personal attacks, etc. If we could
>apply this same professionalism here on RAO it would probably be
>greatly appreciated by many others. Please feel free to look at RAO's
>archives and see how it was in the early days.
>
I've observed several times that people tend to behave differently in
person than they do here. There's just something about the nature of
usenet that seems to bring out the worst in some posters. Maybe it's the
lack of body language and eye to eye contact or the ability to say
whatever you want without thinking too long about it. I suppose there
are different reasons for different posters.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

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[John Atkinson]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Victor Martell wrote:
> > I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which
> I believe is tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post
> a blow by blow of the proceedings?
>
> You can probably gauge the perceived outcome of the debate by
> the delay before it is posted in full. ;-)

I am no sure what you are inferring, Mr. Krueger. Today is my
first day back in the office after spending 4 full days at the
Show. As I promised you in person Friday, I am sending you
today a CD-R with a 2-channel 16/44k1 WAV file of the unedited
recording for your reference. I will be FTP'ing a 64kbps mono
MP3 file of the debate to my webmaster Wednesday to be made
available on www.stereophile.com Monday May 9.

Regarding your comments about what you referred to in another
r.a.o. posting as Harry Lavo's "filibustering" in Friday's
debate, I checked the recording and Harry's comment and question
took 3:50. Yes, this was on the long side but he did make one
important point, I felt, that had not been made by either of us.

For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
opening statement lasted 9:05.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[John Atkinson]

whosbest54 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> >Debates such as JA vs. AK is a good thing. It showed that two
> >adults can debate without name calling, personal attacks, etc.
> >If we could apply this same professionalism here on RAO it
> >would probably be greatly appreciated by many others. Please
> >feel free to look at RAO's archives and see how it was in the
> >early days.
>
> I've observed several times that people tend to behave
> differently in person than they do here.

I wasn't aware that I behaved any differently in person to Mr.
Krueger at last Friday's debate, "whosbest54," than I have
on the newsgroups. I think that people should reserve
judgment on issues such as this until they can hear the
streamed audio file next Monday.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[John Atkinson]

John Atkinson wrote:
> I am no sure what you are "inferring," Mr. Krueger...

Implying, of course. He implies, I infer. -- JA

[whosbest54]

In article . com>,
says...
>
>whosbest54 wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> says...
>> >Debates such as JA vs. AK is a good thing. It showed that two
>> >adults can debate without name calling, personal attacks, etc.
>> >If we could apply this same professionalism here on RAO it
>> >would probably be greatly appreciated by many others. Please
>> >feel free to look at RAO's archives and see how it was in the
>> >early days.
>>
>> I've observed several times that people tend to behave
>> differently in person than they do here.
>
>I wasn't aware that I behaved any differently in person to Mr.
>Krueger at last Friday's debate, "whosbest54," than I have
>on the newsgroups. I think that people should reserve
>judgment on issues such as this until they can hear the
>streamed audio file next Monday.
>
John, I wasn't referring to you specifically; it was more of a generic
general statement and not necessarily aimed at this specific debate.
Perhaps I should have worded the sentence to say that in general I've
observed some people tend to behave differently.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

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[whosbest54]

In article . com>,
says...
>
>I wasn't aware that I behaved any differently in person to Mr.
>Krueger at last Friday's debate, "whosbest54," than I have
>on the newsgroups. I think that people should reserve
>judgment on issues such as this until they can hear the
>streamed audio file next Monday.
>
Also John, this is a good example of how you perceived what I posted
differently than what I intended and was thinking when I wrote it. I
think that sort of misunderstanding contributes to the problems in
usenet. Not unexepected given that you and I don't know each other and
have never met.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
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[Joseph Oberlander]

> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

That's the sad reality. Unlike cars and computers, audio and
music maybe has a major change once every decade. The times
imbetween are glacially slow and dull. Add a channel here,
try some different crossover there(which someone already probably
tried a decade before, and a decade before, and...). The last time
I went to NAAM, it was simmilar, though the sales people there were
all top-notch and notivated. Lots of crap with a few gems here and
there.(like the new Mason & Hamlin pianos - finally as good again
as the ones that made them famous nearly a centruy ago.)

Also, the audio areas at NAAM probably had half of the same
makers there as at your show - and 90% of it sounded dreadful,
considering the price.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Richard wrote:

> "Tom" > wrote:
>
>
>>"Richard" > wrote
>>
>>
>>> I got the message
>>>"The page you are looking for had its name changed."
>>>It was broken then and remains broken.
>>
>>
>>But it wasn't broken when it was first posted - was it, Richard?
>>You have a thing for Arny Krueger?
>>
>
>
> I can only tell you that, for whatever reason, it did not work for me
> yesterday and that is a fact.

It's the site's fault. Try chopping off the end and
finding it from their main page. Evidently there is
some background java or something that needs to be
properly set up to display the page.

[Sander deWaal]

Joseph Oberlander > said:

>
>> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
>> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
>> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
>> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>
>That's the sad reality. Unlike cars and computers, audio and
>music maybe has a major change once every decade. The times
>imbetween are glacially slow and dull. Add a channel here,
>try some different crossover there(which someone already probably
>tried a decade before, and a decade before, and...). The last time
>I went to NAAM, it was simmilar, though the sales people there were
>all top-notch and notivated. Lots of crap with a few gems here and
>there.(like the new Mason & Hamlin pianos - finally as good again
>as the ones that made them famous nearly a centruy ago.)
>
>Also, the audio areas at NAAM probably had half of the same
>makers there as at your show - and 90% of it sounded dreadful,
>considering the price.


Cue the bright and shiny world of audio DIY. :-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Sander deWaal]

Joseph Oberlander > said:

>>>> I got the message
>>>>"The page you are looking for had its name changed."
>>>>It was broken then and remains broken.


>>>But it wasn't broken when it was first posted - was it, Richard?
>>>You have a thing for Arny Krueger?


>> I can only tell you that, for whatever reason, it did not work for me
>> yesterday and that is a fact.


>It's the site's fault. Try chopping off the end and
>finding it from their main page. Evidently there is
>some background java or something that needs to be
>properly set up to display the page.


Evidently the difference between Kreuger and Krueger is too subtle for
you ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Joseph Oberlander]

> Finally, as far as the botched "presentation" goes...although John Atkinson
> accepted the blame for it, I disagree. What kind of idiot does not take his
> own laptop and a projector with him under those circumstances? DUH! Just in
> case you have fallen off the tech wagon, :-)

Other than the idiot(maybe "newbie" instead) part, yes - never
ever EVER trust someone else's setup to work. Bring your own.
I don't even trust the client to have proper hand tools to
open their computer case. And you know what - it's never let
me down having this philosophy :)

[Joseph Oberlander]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Victor Martell wrote:
>
>
>>I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I
>>believe is tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow
>
> by
>
>>blow of the proceedings?
>
>
> You can probably gauge the perceived outcome of the debate by the
> delay before it is posted in full. ;-)

What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

[Steven Sullivan]

Arny Krueger > wrote:
> EddieM wrote:
> >> Victor Martell" > wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?

> > http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkreuger.html


> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

> Here's a working link:

> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

I certainly don't recall Arny *crying* during Harry's monologue...
*yawning*, yes, crying no.

And he wasn't the only one.


--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On 2 May 2005 08:43:32 -0700, "John Atkinson"
> wrote:


>Regarding your comments about what you referred to in another
>r.a.o. posting as Harry Lavo's "filibustering" in Friday's
>debate, I checked the recording and Harry's comment and question
>took 3:50. Yes, this was on the long side but he did make one
>important point, I felt, that had not been made by either of us.

At least Howard would have head-butted the tweako gasbag before he got
to his point, note.

[John Atkinson]

whosbest54 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> >whosbest54 wrote:
> >> I've observed several times that people tend to behave
> >> differently in person than they do here.
> >
> >I wasn't aware that I behaved any differently in person to Mr.
> >Krueger at last Friday's debate, "whosbest54," than I have
> >on the newsgroups. I think that people should reserve
> >judgment on issues such as this until they can hear the
> >streamed audio file next Monday.
> >
> John, I wasn't referring to you specifically; it was more of a
> generic general statement and not necessarily aimed at this
> specific debate.

Okay. I suspect I was misled by the context for your comment.

> this is a good example of how you perceived what I posted
> differently than what I intended and was thinking when I
> wrote it. I think that sort of misunderstanding contributes
> to the problems in usenet.

I am sure you are correct in this feeling.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Joseph Oberlander]

> For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
> reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
> opening statement lasted 9:05.
>
> John Atkinson
> Editor, Stereophile

Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
boring voice that puts you to sleep...

Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah

Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

[John Atkinson]

Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote:
> At least Howard would have head-butted the tweako gasbag
> before he got to his point, note.

Point noted. Given Howard's recent threat to put me in the
hospital, I reckon I dodged a bullet thanks to him not
attending the debate. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> EddieM wrote:
> >> Arny Krueger wrote
>
> >>> EddieM wrote:
>
> >>>> Victor Martell wrote
>
> >>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> proceedings?
> >
> >> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
>
> > It worked last night.
>
> So you say.
>
> >> Here's a working link:
>
> >> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
> >> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> Lavo's
> >> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
> >>
>
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> >> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> didn't
> >> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
> person
> >> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>
> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that
Harry's
> blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
> points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.


I suppose we will see who needed what when we finally get the actual
recording of the debate for ourselves.


>
> > I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
> > was that all about?
>
> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.


Was there no working projector? Seems to me that it wouldn't have been
*that* difficult to find a video cable in that beuilding at that time.
What heppened? Did you not get there ahead of time?



>
> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
> probably stole the cable.


Considering how many cables must have been in the building at that time
I find it hard to believe that this was a stumbling block.



>
> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology.


Was there a working projector?



He
> seemed to leave everything to the last minute.



No surprise there. Those shows are a lot of work. There is never enough
time to do things the way you want to do them. It's the nature of the
beast. Why didn't you just bring everything you needed?



He apologized but he
> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>
> Stuff happens.


That's a fact.





>
> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
> road. It was not unexpected.



Why didn't you bring your own laptop and cables if it weren't
unexpected? If there were no working projector that's one thing but the
rest is pretty easy to bring yourself.



I already had working plan "B" ready to
> execute. I executed it and moved on.



Seems to me a better plan B would have been to BYO as much as possible.




>
> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
> minimal configuration of a business computer.



I think a better plan B would have been your laptop and your cables in
your hands a substantial amount of time before you were to begin. Just
my opinion.



>
> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
> technology.



Really? *That* disappointed you? Interesting. For me the fact that one
can find the actual equipment and the actual designers of the equipment
in person is one of the major draws for a show like this one. What
better presentation is there than in the flesh presence?



So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
> working in.



Live demos of actual equipment with the actual designers there to talk
about it? I just don't see that as backwards. Besides, it really is up
to the people buying the space to make the most of their presentations.





>
> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right
out.
>
> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
> it wrong.
>
> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>
> The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
> technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
> apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.
>
> Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
> typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
> tracking distortion included.
>
> A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
> ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
> at the show has sunk to.
>
> I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
> signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
> I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
> the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
> technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?
>
> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
> actually get AV.



Hmmm. This makes me wonder if this was your first audio show. You seem
to think the presentations at such a show are an accurate reflection of
the quality of the equipment being presented. You seem to think you can
even get a fair evaluation of individual components such as amps in
this envirement. I'm curious, you make some pretty strong comments on
SETs here. How do you know your impressions were a reflection of SETs
and not a reflection of your expectations? I cannot think of a much
less controled envirement than a show. You can hardly ever actually sit
down in the sweet spot and listen carefully to anything without someone
talking or walking or standing in front of you. It simply isn't an
envirement suitable for meaningful critical listening. I think it is
rather naive to draw any negetive conclusions about any particular
components based on a show experience. I wonder how many SETs you
actually managed to listen to from the propper listening position
without any interuption or distraction? I wonder how someone who takes
issue with subjective reviews due to the effects of bias can possibly
make such comments about the sound of SETs based on impressions from a
show?



>
> > How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
> Debate?
>
> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
> should have been their audio childhood.


Really? Seems one would remain focused and ready for a meaningful
rebuttal. Oh well.



>
> If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of
today
> is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
> technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
> broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>
> > What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>
> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths.


Well we will see for ourselves when the debate becomes available. If
that were the case though, why no victory dance? You didn't destroy an
unprepared opponent in a debate? Well, we'll see and judge for
ourselves.


He obviously had nothing of
> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical
examples
> were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
> experiments.
>
> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
> Primedia.
>
> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>
> > Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>
> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
> agree with the core ideals.
>
> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that
can't
> be it.



That's kind of an ugly thing to say. You know some of us had freinds
that died in 9/11.




The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>
> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?



I don't think you can say that without more experience with these kinds
of shows. If you were surprised that the majority of the sound was
disappointing then you must be rather green when it comes to shows like
this and rather naive about the dhallenges one faces with getting good
sound out of a hotel room. Good sounding exhibits have always been the
exception rather than the rule and one simply cannot expect to have the
oppurtunity to listen to any given setup the way it is meant to be
heard with people in and out of the rooms. It's not a fiar envirement.
It's like saying sports cars really don't perform as claimed based on a
test drive in rush hour traffic.



>
> > How's the food?
>
> Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
> that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
> me healthy and that was that.
>
> > Did you met any luminaries?
>
> I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few
people
> from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.
>
> > Which one did you find the most interesting?
>
> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.


I am surprised you don't understand the issues involved in the sound
one finds at these kinds of events.



>
> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end
audio
> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I
figured
> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.







Scott Wheeler

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On 2 May 2005 10:59:15 -0700, "John Atkinson"
> wrote:

>
>Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote:
>> At least Howard would have head-butted the tweako gasbag
>> before he got to his point, note.
>
>Point noted. Given Howard's recent threat to put me in the
>hospital, I reckon I dodged a bullet thanks to him not
>attending the debate. :-)
>

I think he would have been too preoccupied with Margaret's cleavage to
even notice you.

[Steven Sullivan]

Sander deWaal > wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > said:

> <snip>

> >Stuff happens.


> Well, kudos anyway for showing up.
> Too bad about the PP presentation.
> Any chance that it'll become available somewhere?

Arny, was the PP presentation any more than what you
were refering to on paper during the first part
of your turn -- the definitions of
subjectivst and objectivist? Or was there
a set of graphics or a data presentation too?

--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Sander deWaal]

said:


>Hmmm. This makes me wonder if this was your first audio show. You seem
>to think the presentations at such a show are an accurate reflection of
>the quality of the equipment being presented. You seem to think you can
>even get a fair evaluation of individual components such as amps in
>this envirement. I'm curious, you make some pretty strong comments on
>SETs here. How do you know your impressions were a reflection of SETs
>and not a reflection of your expectations? I cannot think of a much
>less controled envirement than a show. You can hardly ever actually sit
>down in the sweet spot and listen carefully to anything without someone
>talking or walking or standing in front of you. It simply isn't an
>envirement suitable for meaningful critical listening. I think it is
>rather naive to draw any negetive conclusions about any particular
>components based on a show experience. I wonder how many SETs you
>actually managed to listen to from the propper listening position
>without any interuption or distraction? I wonder how someone who takes
>issue with subjective reviews due to the effects of bias can possibly
>make such comments about the sound of SETs based on impressions from a
>show?


On all the shows I attended or demoed, they all played * too ****in'
LOUD* for my tastes.
That includes demos of SET amps.
You simply can't crank them up beyond the 8 watts they're supposed to
deliver at 5 % or so.

That said, any show is the worst place to evaluate a component
seriously, even when played within normal listening levels.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[John Atkinson]

wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
> > Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation
> > technology.
>
> Was there a working projector?

Yes, with the usual VGA lead. As I said in another posting, the
laptop I had provided Arny was not working and the backup I
was kindly offered required a different adaptor to the VGA-DVI
I had in my computer bag. It would have been a 30-minute
task to run down to the Apple store and get a suitable cable,
but Arny agreed to go ahead without the PowerPoint so that
the show could start on time.

I have now apologized for this mishap to Mr. Krueger on
multiple occasions; I fail to undertsnad why he is still
making an issue of it. And in my opinion, given that his
slides were text-based, I don't the mishap materially
affected the efficacy of his presentation.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Lionel]

Joseph Oberlander a écrit :
>
>> For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
>> reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
>> opening statement lasted 9:05.
>>
>> John Atkinson
>> Editor, Stereophile
>
>
> Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
> men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
> boring voice that puts you to sleep...
>
> Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
> John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah



> Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
> discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
> Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains
and ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the
parasitic contributions from the usual polluters and
hatemongers : Middius, Sackman, Weil, Richman...

Note that they have done their best during the months before
to exacerbate the passions, to provocate... in order to
change the debate in a bull**** scuffle.

Nobody wins ? Sure !
But IMHO it's not really important since the villains have lost.

:-)

[Steven Sullivan]

whosbest54 > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >
> >>> Here's a working link:
> >
> >>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
> >
> This is all I've seen of the debate other than the posts to this
> thread. If there will be audio or video posted to this site, that
> would be nice.

> John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in the
> text. Obviously the name tag in the photo can't be changed, so I
> suggest you crop the photo to leave it out and add captions to the
> pics.

> My views on the announced topic of the debate have been posted to my
> web page for years and are generally in line with Arny's. Those views
> aren't modified in any way by what I've read in this thread or on the
> above web page.

> Nor are my views changed in any way by the way Arny and a number of
> other posters choose to behave at times in this newsgroup. For
> example, Arny recently replied to a post of mine pointing out that he's
> a major contributor to this newsgroup despite his distain for the group
> because he likes to annoy other posters.

> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/msg/3985e2253d970
> b59?dmode=source&hl=en

> or

> http://tinyurl.com/7eysu

> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
> method, but on your opinion/feelings. Not that there's anything wrong
> with that, if that's what you want to do and it makes you happy. I
> choose to rely on more scientific methods to decern _real_ differences
> in equipment. And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
> aren't important, even if they exist.

This was the point I tried to make in my question to him...which IIRC was
the only question directed solely at Mr. Atkinson (all the rest but for the
very last, which was of the 'can't we just get along' sort, were, as
best I recall, anti-Arny). John's anecdote seemed to me
to boil down to: "I failed a DBT of an SS vs a tube amp...but when I lived
with the SS amp I hated it...then when I switched to the tube amp I loved it...
and therefore, DBTs are no damn good for substantiating audible difference."

To me this chain of reason was deeply flawed.
I asked him the (obvious to me) question -- even giving him the
benefit of doubt that 'long term' listening might make the listener more sensitive to
differences (consider it a form of 'training'; DBT advocates also advocate listener
training) -- why didn't he then *REPEAT THE DBT*? Surely something that had
gradually evoked *such* a visceral dislike during weeks of listening, would distinguish
itself *now* in a DBT from the warm, fuzzy tube amp, right? Surely their
sonic signatures were now engraved in memory?

It may be that in my nervousness I didn't make the question direct enough,
because the answer he gave didn't seem to address it. He simply repeated that the DBT
he had done at the *start* was negative and therefore he *shouldn't have*
preferred either amp. Whihc is more bad reasoning. But maybe it's just thatt deep
down he simply doesn't think DBTs *work*, despite their being the gold standard
in daily use in real audio research (not to mention other forms of
psychological research and product testing)?

If he's right it's something scientists in general and the
folks at Harman/JBL in particular need to be informed of posthaste!

If he;s wrong, well....scientists could find a polite way to say
'told ya so'.

John, feel free to respond to my question again. ;>

[Steven Sullivan]

John Atkinson > wrote:

> whosbest54 wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > says...
> > >whosbest54 wrote:
> > >> John, I suggest you correct the spelling of Arny's first name in
> > >> the text.
> > >
> > >I haven't yet published anything on the debate, so have nothing to
> > >correct. Please be assured that when I do, Arny's name will be
> > >correctly spelled.
> >
> > based on the content of the site I give the URL for below, I had
> > assumed you had control over the text posted there.

> No, there is no connection between Stephen Rochlin's "Enjoy the
> Music" audio webzine and Stereophile.

> > It seems to say that the organization responsible for the site
> > had something to do with hosting the debate. If I was mistaken,
> > I apologize.
> > http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

> No apology necessary. The debate was hosted by Stereophile at
> Primedia's just-finished Home Entertainment 2005 Show in
> Manhattan. We unfortuantely spelled Arny as "Arnie" on the tent
> card on the presenter's table. Stephen attended the debate as an
> independent member of the press and posted his comments at his own
> website.

> As I said, the audio recording of the debate -- including Arny's
> version of the "scream heard around the world" -- will be made
> available at www.stereophile.com in the near future.


I forgot about that! Yes, that certainly woke everyone up. ;>



--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Arny Krueger]

wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> EddieM wrote:
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote
>>
>>>>> EddieM wrote:

>>>> Here's a working link:

>>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html

>>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>>>> Lavo's 108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
>>>> didn't stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and
bore
>>>> in person than he is on RAHE. ;-(

>> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that
>> Harry's blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of
>> critical points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.

> I suppose we will see who needed what when we finally get the actual
> recording of the debate for ourselves.

Scott, you're so self-deluded that you wont' see anything but your
prejudices.

>>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
>>> was that all about?

>> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
>> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage
a
>> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable
accompanies
>> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.

> Was there no working projector?

What's unclear about my statements about a cable gone missing?

OK Scott, I'll spell it out for your little pea brain. There was a
computer and a projector but a standard cable that connects the two
was nowhere to be found. I don't know if they would actually work or
not, because there was no cable to test them with. Got it?

> Seems to me that it wouldn't have been
> *that* difficult to find a video cable in that beuilding at that
time.

No doubt, but *everything* was left to the last minute.

> What heppened?

Atkinson got caught flat-footed.

>Did you not get there ahead of time?

I was there nearly an hour in advance. But, a panel discussion was
going on, so I did not inspect the equipment very closely.

>> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology -
someone
>> probably stole the cable.

> Considering how many cables must have been in the building at that
> time I find it hard to believe that this was a stumbling block.

Well Scott I find it hard to believe that you can't understand the
concept of a deadline.


>> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology.

> Was there a working projector?

Asked and answered.

>> He seemed to leave everything to the last minute.

> No surprise there. Those shows are a lot of work. There is never
> enough time to do things the way you want to do them. It's the
nature
> of the beast. Why didn't you just bring everything you needed?

Because it was a win-win situation for me. I didn't need the working
projector *that* bad. I just read my notes.

>> He apologized but he
>> screwed up because he did not have his act together.

>> Stuff happens.

> That's a fact.

Finally Scotty we descend to a level that you can comprehend.

>> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
>> road. It was not unexpected.

> Why didn't you bring your own laptop and cables if it weren't
> unexpected?

Sue me for thinking that people can be trusted to follow though on a
reasonable agreement.

>If there were no working projector that's one thing but
> the rest is pretty easy to bring yourself.

Thanks Scott for showing that you approve of people being
untrustworthy.

> I already had working plan "B" ready to
>> execute. I executed it and moved on.

> Seems to me a better plan B would have been to BYO as much as
> possible.

You've got me confused with a beast of burden.

>> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
>> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
>> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
>> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
>> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint
on
>> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of
the
>> minimal configuration of a business computer.

> I think a better plan B would have been your laptop and your cables
in
> your hands a substantial amount of time before you were to begin.
Just
> my opinion.

Your opinion is as worthless and biased as ever, Scott.

>> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment
to
>> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of
presentation
>> technology.

> Really? *That* disappointed you? Interesting.

Not at all. I expected to be disappointed by the technology.

>For me the fact that one
> can find the actual equipment and the actual designers of the
> equipment in person is one of the major draws for a show like this
one.

That would be more interesting if more of them were honest and
competent.

>What better presentation is there than in the flesh presence?

Flesh presence of someone who is credible.

>> So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
>> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
>> working in.

> Live demos of actual equipment with the actual designers there to
talk
> about it?

Obviously competency means nothing to you, Scott.

> I just don't see that as backwards.

That would be because you are so arrogant and gullable, Scott.

>Besides, it really is up
> to the people buying the space to make the most of their
> presentations.

Now that I can agree with.

>> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding
crap
>> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers
were
>> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right
>> out.

>> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
>> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still
get
>> it wrong.

>> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
>> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
>> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
>> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny
bit
>> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room)
tended
>> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

>> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
>> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
>> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high
school
>> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at
least
>> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
>> actually get AV.

> Hmmm. This makes me wonder if this was your first audio show.

Not at all.

> You seem
> to think the presentations at such a show are an accurate reflection
> of the quality of the equipment being presented.

No, I think the presentations are a way to obtain relevant information
about the products.

>You seem to think
> you can even get a fair evaluation of individual components such as
> amps in this envirement.

I think that I can detect the difference between
environmentally-induced grundge and crappy-equipment-induced grunge at
least some of the time.

> I'm curious, you make some pretty strong
> comments on SETs here. How do you know your impressions were a
> reflection of SETs and not a reflection of your expectations?

Good question. When you can answer the question for yourself Scott,
please get back with us.

> I cannot think of a much less controled envirement than a show.

I agree - I think that many of the vendors are working hard to make
the listening evaluations as meaningless as possible.

> You can
> hardly ever actually sit down in the sweet spot and listen carefully
> to anything without someone talking or walking or standing in front
> of you.

That wasn't much a a problem most of the time.

>It simply isn't an envirement suitable for meaningful
> critical listening. I think it is rather naive to draw any negetive
> conclusions about any particular components based on a show
> experience.

Depends on the conclusion.

> I wonder how many SETs you actually managed to listen to
> from the propper listening position without any interuption or
> distraction?

When the crappy sound is that strongly crappy, it doesn't take a
pristine enviroment to hear it clearly.

>I wonder how someone who takes issue with subjective
> reviews due to the effects of bias can possibly make such comments
> about the sound of SETs based on impressions from a show?

Let someone send me a SET to DBT! ;-)

>>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
>>> Debate?

>> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that
was
>> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
>> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
>> should have been their audio childhood.

> Really? Seems one would remain focused and ready for a meaningful
> rebuttal. Oh well.

In the context the better strategy was to avoid getting distracted by
obvious red herrings.


>> We have been refining our
>> evaluation technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is
>> locked in a broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
>>
>>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
>>
>> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths.

> Well we will see for ourselves when the debate becomes available.

Scott, you are so blinded by your arrogance and stupidity that you
won't see anything meaningful.

> If that were the case though, why no victory dance?

It's not my style to dance on my opponent's grave.

> You didn't destroy an unprepared opponent in a debate?

I think that the problems with Atkinson's run down memory lane was
self-evident to anybody who was unbiassed enough to understand the
topic.

>Well, we'll see and judge for ourselves.

Not you Scott. You're head is too deeply imbedded where the sun shines
not.


> He obviously had nothing of
>> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical
>> examples were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his
own
>> experiments.

>> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
>> Primedia.

>> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
>> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
>> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
>> reads his articles in SP should know that.
>>
>>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
>>
>> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
>> agree with the core ideals.
>>
>> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
>> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people
I
>> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
>> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that
>> can't be it.

> That's kind of an ugly thing to say. You know some of us had freinds
> that died in 9/11.

What's unclear about "no, they were innocents"? Obviously that is very
unclear to a person with your vastly reduced mentality, Scott.

>> The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
>> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is
no
>> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

>> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
>> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
>> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
>> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?


> I don't think you can say that without more experience with these
> kinds of shows.

I wasn't comparing them to other shows of this kind. I was comparing
them to modern standards for competence.

> If you were surprised that the majority of the sound
> was disappointing then you must be rather green when it comes to
> shows like this and rather naive about the dhallenges one faces with
> getting good sound out of a hotel room.

Enough people got it right enough that one could easily see how good
sound was done.

>Good sounding exhibits have
> always been the exception rather than the rule and one simply cannot
> expect to have the oppurtunity to listen to any given setup the way
> it is meant to be heard with people in and out of the rooms.

Depends on what you are listening to and for. I'd never blow off a
speaker on the grounds of tonal balance if it were smooth. However, we
heard a number of speakers that had big nasty holes in their response,
and you can't always blame that on the room.

> It's not a fiar envirement. It's like saying sports cars really
don't perform
> as claimed based on a test drive in rush hour traffic.

Agreed, but when the sports car won't start, and then when started it
rolls over on its back...

>>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
>>
>> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
>> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

> I am surprised you don't understand the issues involved in the sound
> one finds at these kinds of events.

Since that is a figment of your mind Scott, I don't know why it
surprises you. Thanks for admitting that you don't know yourself!

>> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end
>> audio systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses,
I
>> figured out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

[Steven Sullivan]

Margaret von B. > wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
> > EddieM wrote:
> >>> Arny Krueger wrote
> >
> >>>> EddieM wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Victor Martell wrote
> >
> >>>>> Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
> > proceedings?
> >>
> >>> Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.
> >
> >> It worked last night.
> >
> > So you say.
> >
> >>> Here's a working link:
> >
> >>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
> >
> >>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> > Lavo's
> >>> 108 minute, more or less, marathon
> >>>
> > declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> >>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> > didn't
> >>> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
> > person
> >>> than he is on RAHE. ;-(
> >
> > On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
> > blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
> > points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
> >

> Is THAT what happened, Mr. Deer-in-the-Headlights? :-) :-) :-)

> In fact Atkinson had you in his crosshairs most of the time but being either
> a merciful or timid hunter did not pull the trigger, Mr. Deer.


Oh, *please*....by no nonbiased stretch of the imagination did either party's
presentation demolish the other's . There simply wasn't time, IMO.

On the other hand , it was Arny, I think, who was able to at least
take one well-deserved shot at R.A.O.



--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[John Atkinson]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> wrote:
> There's an obvious inherent problem when the moderator is one
> of the protagonists.

I am sorry you feel that way, Mr. Krueger. If you had a problem
with this, should you not have raised it back in November when
you agreed to this format? As it stands, I don't believe I did
anything to cramp your style as a debater. And as with the other
claims you and others have made about the debate, I believe
that people in general would be wise to hold off expressing
opinions on matters like this until they can listen to the
recording.

> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
> Primedia.

No, that is not the case.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Steven Sullivan]

Schizoid Man > wrote:

> > wrote in message

> >> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
> >> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
> >
> >
> > Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
> > heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
> > recordings.
> >

> I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?

They make music.


--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Arny Krueger]

John Atkinson wrote:

> Regarding your comments about what you referred to in another
> r.a.o. posting as Harry Lavo's "filibustering" in Friday's
> debate, I checked the recording and Harry's comment and question
> took 3:50. Yes, this was on the long side but he did make one
> important point, I felt, that had not been made by either of us.

I don't know what that might be.

> For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
> reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
> opening statement lasted 9:05.

OK, but unlike Harry, we actually said something relevant.

For example John, you basically admitted that you've never been
involved in a competently-run DBT.

Did that include the test of the Quad 405? Interesting question - I
have a friend who tells me he has one. When my house project is done
and my house is in some kind of order, I may set up a PCABX test of
it.

[Steven Sullivan]

Arny Krueger > wrote:
> wrote:

> >> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> Lavo's 108 minute, more or less,
> >> marathon
> declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> >> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> didn't
> >> stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in
> person
> >> than he is on RAHE. ;-(

> > Agreed his question was VERY long-winded.

> It was no question at all. It did save John from having to deal with
> tough stuff.


There was a quesiton in there, but you really had to be versed in
his pet causes on r.a.h-e to notice it...he wanted to know if you
endorsed 'monadic' controlled listening tests. HArry is convinced
that science is trembling on the verge of (or has already made)
new discoveries that will overturn the DBT paradigm and
send standard DBT protocols into the dustbin of history...

Given the choice between wading into *that* morass, or answering
that other guy's question about the mathematical/philosophical
bases of DBTs....I think JA and you did the right thing.




--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Arny Krueger]

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

>> For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
>> reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
>> opening statement lasted 9:05.

Had there been a working PPT setup I would have been on time.

> Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
> men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
> boring voice that puts you to sleep...
>
> Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
> John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
>
> Q: Was anything at all decided?

Is that a relevant criteria?

>Did either one of you actually
> discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?

I don't think that I heard anything from John that I hadn't heard
several times before.

> Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.

It was definately not two monlogues - there was some interaction.
Well, at least until Harry started droning.

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Sander deWaal > wrote:
>> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>> <snip>
>
>>> Stuff happens.
>
>
>> Well, kudos anyway for showing up.
>> Too bad about the PP presentation.
>> Any chance that it'll become available somewhere?
>
> Arny, was the PP presentation any more than what you
> were refering to on paper during the first part
> of your turn -- the definitions of
> subjectivst and objectivist?

Yes.

> Or was there a set of graphics or a data presentation too?

No. It was only about 5 pages. 5 pages, 5 minutes - that's how it came
out during rehearsals.

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Arny Krueger > wrote:
>
>> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding
crap
>> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers
were
>> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right
>> out.
>
> THis was my first audio show....I can't fathom how anyone
> could get a reliable idea of how *any* of this stuff sounded,
> based on the setups I heard (about ten or fifteen of them, then
> I gave up).

It's all that listener training that Nousaine and I have been
subjected to over the years... ;-)

> Herding people into small hotel rooms
> with high ambient noise levels...with the demonstrators allowed to
> change settings by remote control *during* the demo (I saw at least
> one guy doing this)...and with most of the demos too loud anyway
> (perhaps to try to drown out the thumping and talking from outside
> the room)... playing mostly the same homogenized vocal jazz (though
> one radical
> room was playing those up and comers *The Beatles* -- alas, it was
> 'Octopus' Garden' during my session)...no thanks. Certainly whatever
> little trust I placed in audio show reviews before, is now rendered
> even more dilute.

>> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
>> Primedia.

> Heh. Arny, I was sitting in the viper's nest up front, amidst
> the Primedians, on the JA side of the room....when you took the
stage,
> one in front of me turned to around to one next to me to engage in
> this exchange of open-mindedness:

> "Is that Arny Kruger?"
> "Yes. I don't like him"
> "Me neither"

I wouldn't expect them to like me. I'd be surprised if they did.
However, they seem to be diluting the concentration of Stereophile in
their collection of A/V magazines so like it or not, they are kinda
agreeing with me.

>> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
>> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
>> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
>> reads his articles in SP should know that.

> Ah, I wish I had been able to stay for that.

Sorry you missed it. Sorry that the photographer missed it. Sorry that
its probably going to be trimmed from the recording.

>> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end
>> audio systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses,
I
>> figured out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

> I couldn't believe that stuff...a most unusual species...giant audio
> pythons on display!

Just a caricature of audio.

[Arny Krueger]

John Atkinson wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> wrote:
>> There's an obvious inherent problem when the moderator is one
>> of the protagonists.
>
> I am sorry you feel that way, Mr. Krueger. If you had a problem
> with this, should you not have raised it back in November when
> you agreed to this format?

Beggars can't be choosers.

>As it stands, I don't believe I did
> anything to cramp your style as a debater.

Asked and answered.

> And as with the other
> claims you and others have made about the debate, I believe
> that people in general would be wise to hold off expressing
> opinions on matters like this until they can listen to the
> recording.

It doesn't matter because most minds are made up, already.

>> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
>> Primedia.

> No, that is not the case.

Good, I think the name is one of the better parts of the magazine.

[whosbest54]

In article >, says...
>
>> John, your story about what you did with your amps in your 20's was
>> interesting, but your decision making wasn't based on any scientific
>> method, but on your opinion/feelings. Not that there's anything wrong
>> with that, if that's what you want to do and it makes you happy. I
>> choose to rely on more scientific methods to decern _real_ differences
>> in equipment. And, as I say on my web page, often those differences
>> aren't important, even if they exist.
>
>This was the point I tried to make in my question to him...which IIRC was
>the only question directed solely at Mr. Atkinson (all the rest but for the
>very last, which was of the 'can't we just get along' sort, were, as
>best I recall, anti-Arny). John's anecdote seemed to me
>to boil down to: "I failed a DBT of an SS vs a tube amp...but when I lived
>with the SS amp I hated it...then when I switched to the tube amp I loved it...
>and therefore, DBTs are no damn good for substantiating audible difference."
>
>To me this chain of reason was deeply flawed.
>I asked him the (obvious to me) question -- even giving him the
>benefit of doubt that 'long term' listening might make the listener more sensitive to
>differences (consider it a form of 'training'; DBT advocates also advocate listener
>training) -- why didn't he then *REPEAT THE DBT*? Surely something that had
>gradually evoked *such* a visceral dislike during weeks of listening, would distinguish
>itself *now* in a DBT from the warm, fuzzy tube amp, right? Surely their
>sonic signatures were now engraved in memory?
>
>It may be that in my nervousness I didn't make the question direct enough,
>because the answer he gave didn't seem to address it. He simply repeated that the DBT
>he had done at the *start* was negative and therefore he *shouldn't have*
>preferred either amp. Whihc is more bad reasoning. But maybe it's just thatt deep
>down he simply doesn't think DBTs *work*, despite their being the gold standard
>in daily use in real audio research (not to mention other forms of
>psychological research and product testing)?
>
>If he's right it's something scientists in general and the
>folks at Harman/JBL in particular need to be informed of posthaste!
>
>If he;s wrong, well....scientists could find a polite way to say
>'told ya so'.
>
>John, feel free to respond to my question again. ;>
>
It'd be nice if he responded to my original paragraph too.

I agree with you that he should have done the test again - or better yet, setup both
amps at home in his system with a switch box and have someone else wire it up and keep
the identity of which amp is on away from him. That other person would come in and
switch the amps between A and B on the switch box at random and keep a record of that.
Then he would select one or the other at random and keep a logbook of which one he
listened too. Then, after weeks of listening, see if he likes A or B better or can tell
the difference. There may be other ways to do a scientific test.

The key is he knew what he was listening to and that takes away the scientific
objectiveness of it.

However, if one wants to rely on nonscientific subjectiveness, they have that right.
But don't try to sell it as scientifically valid. It's based on opinions.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Arny Krueger > wrote:
>> wrote:
>
>>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>> Lavo's 108 minute, more or less,
>>>> marathon
>>
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
>>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
>>>> didn't stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore
>>>> in person than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>
>>> Agreed his question was VERY long-winded.
>
>> It was no question at all. It did save John from having to deal
with
>> tough stuff.
>
>
> There was a quesiton in there, but you really had to be versed in
> his pet causes on r.a.h-e to notice it...he wanted to know if you
> endorsed 'monadic' controlled listening tests.

Even knowing how monad is defined, I wouldn't know what he meant
without more explanation.

> HArry is convinced
> that science is trembling on the verge of (or has already made)
> new discoveries that will overturn the DBT paradigm and
> send standard DBT protocols into the dustbin of history...

Clearly so.

> Given the choice between wading into *that* morass, or answering
> that other guy's question about the mathematical/philosophical
> bases of DBTs....I think JA and you did the right thing.

That other guy had some problems of his own.

[Mike McKelvy]

Michael Conzo said:

>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo >filibuster,
showed
>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion. It >wasn't
necessary
>to pay equal respect to the audience, for they didn't come >to hear
>nonsensical audience abuse of Mr. krueger. And your >lack of proper
>preparation for Mr. Krueger's side of the debate made the >effort
clearly
>biased by Stereophile. Any competent engineer tests his >gear in situ
before
>a big gig. Your failures in this regard are frankly >inexcusable.

But not completely unexpected.

[Lionel]

Steven Sullivan a écrit :
> Schizoid Man > wrote:
>
>
> wrote in message
>
>
>>>>But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
>>>>don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
>>>heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
>>>recordings.
>>>
>
>
>>I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?
>
>
> They make music.


That's true, like Pat Metheny and Ted Nugent.

[Mike McKelvy]

Joseph Oberlander said:




>What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
>doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
>I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

What needed to be resolved? It's already well estaqblishjed that the
Stereophile methodolgy for discerning the qualities of audio gear are
worthless. Having a chance to wrap up JA's slithering out of the
previous attempts to pin him down in a one on one with Arny was the
most important thing to come out the whole thing. Well that and
knowing that Fremer is still a spoiled brat, and hasn't changed much
since he attacked Nousaine at some other show several years ago.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> wrote:
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >> EddieM wrote:
> >>>> Arny Krueger wrote
> >>
> >>>>> EddieM wrote:
>
> >>>> Here's a working link:
>
> >>>> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
> >>>> The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
> >>>> Lavo's 108 minute, more or less, marathon
>
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
> >>>> -sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson
> >>>> didn't stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and
> bore
> >>>> in person than he is on RAHE. ;-(
>
> >> On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that
> >> Harry's blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of
> >> critical points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.
>
> > I suppose we will see who needed what when we finally get the
actual
> > recording of the debate for ourselves.
>
> Scott, you're so self-deluded that you wont' see anything but your
> prejudices.


Already making excuses I see.




>
> >>> I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
> >>> was that all about?
>
> >> Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
> >> standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage
> a
> >> bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable
> accompanies
> >> every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.
>
> > Was there no working projector?
>
> What's unclear about my statements about a cable gone missing?


What is unclear about my question about the projector?




>
> OK Scott, I'll spell it out for your little pea brain. There was a
> computer and a projector but a standard cable that connects the two
> was nowhere to be found. I don't know if they would actually work or
> not, because there was no cable to test them with. Got it?



You came unprepared even though you expected things to go wrong. Got
it.




>
> > Seems to me that it wouldn't have been
> > *that* difficult to find a video cable in that beuilding at that
> time.
>
> No doubt, but *everything* was left to the last minute.


By *you* as well. It seems that you are just as guilty as Atkinson. He
has a pretty good excuse. He was pretty busy. You have no such excuse.
No big deal but you were not prepared for the very thing you say you
expected to happen. Kind of lame.







>
> > What heppened?
>
> Atkinson got caught flat-footed.


Actually you did. His presentation didn't run into the same problems as
yours did.



>
> >Did you not get there ahead of time?
>
> I was there nearly an hour in advance. But, a panel discussion was
> going on, so I did not inspect the equipment very closely.



Oops.




>
> >> As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology -
> someone
> >> probably stole the cable.
>
> > Considering how many cables must have been in the building at that
> > time I find it hard to believe that this was a stumbling block.
>
> Well Scott I find it hard to believe that you can't understand the
> concept of a deadline.


Actually I can. I meet them all the time. I don't allow things as lame
as this to keep me from meeting my deadlines. I am in the habbit of
taking care of everything *I need* in order to make my deadlines. Maybe
sitting on your ass in front of your computer all these years with no
responsibilities contributed to your lack of preparedness. Maybe you
just aren't used to getting ready for anything.



>
>
> >> Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology.
>
> > Was there a working projector?
>
> Asked and answered.


By Mr. Atkinson, yes.



>
> >> He seemed to leave everything to the last minute.
>
> > No surprise there. Those shows are a lot of work. There is never
> > enough time to do things the way you want to do them. It's the
> nature
> > of the beast. Why didn't you just bring everything you needed?
>
> Because it was a win-win situation for me. I didn't need the working
> projector *that* bad. I just read my notes.


That makes no sense. You prepared a power point presentation for the
sake of not using it? Why bother? Why not just plan on reading your
notes to begin with?



>
> >> He apologized but he
> >> screwed up because he did not have his act together.
>
> >> Stuff happens.
>
> > That's a fact.
>
> Finally Scotty we descend to a level that you can comprehend.


No you finaly had a moment of clarity. Stuff does happen. You weren't
prepared. Yet you still whine like a baby about it.



>
> >> The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
> >> road. It was not unexpected.
>
> > Why didn't you bring your own laptop and cables if it weren't
> > unexpected?
>
> Sue me for thinking that people can be trusted to follow though on a
> reasonable agreement.


Well why don't you get your story straight? Did you trust people to
follow through on a reasonable agreement or was this "not unexpected?"



>
> >If there were no working projector that's one thing but
> > the rest is pretty easy to bring yourself.
>
> Thanks Scott for showing that you approve of people being
> untrustworthy.


You are an idiot. I showed no such thing. But you are showing an
inability to take responsibility for your own lack of preparedness. You
claim you expected this sort of thing to happen. You could have
*easily* prepared for it and you failed. You are just being the same
old ass hole you usually are on line. "Stuff happens" it aint the same
as being untrustworthy dickhead.


>
> > I already had working plan "B" ready to
> >> execute. I executed it and moved on.
>
> > Seems to me a better plan B would have been to BYO as much as
> > possible.
>
> You've got me confused with a beast of burden.


You aren't even making sense now Arny.




>
> >> My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
> >> press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from.
I
> >> knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
> >> that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
> >> computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint
> on
> >> my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of
> the
> >> minimal configuration of a business computer.
>
> > I think a better plan B would have been your laptop and your cables
> in
> > your hands a substantial amount of time before you were to begin.
> Just
> > my opinion.
>
> Your opinion is as worthless and biased as ever, Scott.


Really? My plan wouldn't have worked? You are so full of it.



>
> >> I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment
> to
> >> me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of
> presentation
> >> technology.
>
> > Really? *That* disappointed you? Interesting.
>
> Not at all. I expected to be disappointed by the technology.


You seem to be quite confused. Lets review. "The show was a major
disappointment to me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds
of presentation technology." "Really? *That* disappointed you?" "Not at
all."OK.............



>
> >For me the fact that one
> > can find the actual equipment and the actual designers of the
> > equipment in person is one of the major draws for a show like this
> one.
>
> That would be more interesting if more of them were honest and
> competent.


That might mean something if you were honest or competent.




>
> >What better presentation is there than in the flesh presence?
>
> Flesh presence of someone who is credible.


To bad you had nothing to offer there.



>
> >> So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
> >> technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
> >> working in.
>
> > Live demos of actual equipment with the actual designers there to
> talk
> > about it?
>
> Obviously competency means nothing to you, Scott.



Your posturing about it means nothing to me.




>
> > I just don't see that as backwards.
>
> That would be because you are so arrogant and gullable, Scott.



If irony killed.




>
> >Besides, it really is up
> > to the people buying the space to make the most of their
> > presentations.
>
> Now that I can agree with.
>
> >> Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding
> crap
> >> masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers
> were
> >> really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right
> >> out.
>
> >> Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
> >> something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still
> get
> >> it wrong.
>
> >> I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
> >> they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why
almost
> >> every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a
very
> >> small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny
> bit
> >> complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room)
> tended
> >> to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.
>
> >> But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
> >> presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
> >> their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high
> school
> >> students to run their sales presentations, there would have at
> least
> >> been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school
students
> >> actually get AV.
>
> > Hmmm. This makes me wonder if this was your first audio show.
>
> Not at all.


What others have you been to? How were they different?



>
> > You seem
> > to think the presentations at such a show are an accurate
reflection
> > of the quality of the equipment being presented.
>
> No, I think the presentations are a way to obtain relevant
information
> about the products.


Then why comment on the capabilities of components based on listening
in such an obviously flawed envirement? You didn't claim to base your
comments on any "information" but on your listening experience.






>
> >You seem to think
> > you can even get a fair evaluation of individual components such as
> > amps in this envirement.
>
> I think that I can detect the difference between
> environmentally-induced grundge and crappy-equipment-induced grunge
at
> least some of the time.


Based on listening under show conditions. I find your opinion highly
suspect and in complete contradiction to your alleged beliefs on audio.
I guess you now think you are not subject to bias affects? funny that.





>
> > I'm curious, you make some pretty strong
> > comments on SETs here. How do you know your impressions were a
> > reflection of SETs and not a reflection of your expectations?
>
> Good question. When you can answer the question for yourself Scott,
> please get back with us.



Why can't *you* answer the question? I already know the answer. You
don't know they weren't a reflection of your biases.



>
> > I cannot think of a much less controled envirement than a show.
>
> I agree - I think that many of the vendors are working hard to make
> the listening evaluations as meaningless as possible.


Ah more mind reading from the self-proclaimed skeptic.



>
> > You can
> > hardly ever actually sit down in the sweet spot and listen
carefully
> > to anything without someone talking or walking or standing in front
> > of you.
>
> That wasn't much a a problem most of the time.


That surprises me. So most of the time the rooms were pretty much empty
and you were able to sit down in the sweet spot and listen carefully
without such distractions? Steve Sullivan seems to have had a very
different experience.


>
> >It simply isn't an envirement suitable for meaningful
> > critical listening. I think it is rather naive to draw any negetive
> > conclusions about any particular components based on a show
> > experience.
>
> Depends on the conclusion.


Your conclusions are the ones in question. They are naive at best. I
think they really are just antagonistic blustering in reality.



>
> > I wonder how many SETs you actually managed to listen to
> > from the propper listening position without any interuption or
> > distraction?
>
> When the crappy sound is that strongly crappy, it doesn't take a
> pristine enviroment to hear it clearly.


So you think you can draw these conclusions without even sitting in the
sweet spot and listening without distraction. That is a joke. You are
just making a fool of yourself now.




>
> >I wonder how someone who takes issue with subjective
> > reviews due to the effects of bias can possibly make such comments
> > about the sound of SETs based on impressions from a show?
>
> Let someone send me a SET to DBT! ;-)


I'm not stopping anyone from doing so. But you are just trying to stir
the pot. your observations are obviously more of a reflection on you
than the SETs you listened to.



>
> >>> How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this
> >>> Debate?
>
> >> Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that
> was
> >> that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer
and
> >> others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
> >> should have been their audio childhood.
>
> > Really? Seems one would remain focused and ready for a meaningful
> > rebuttal. Oh well.
>
> In the context the better strategy was to avoid getting distracted by
> obvious red herrings.


Doesn't matter if *you* don't get distracted by red herrings. What
matters is if the audience is getting distracted by red herrings. How
can you do anything about it if you aren't even paying attention. No,
it is always best to pay attention to what the other side is saying in
a debate and be ready with a good rebuttal.




>
>
> >> We have been refining our
> >> evaluation technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is
> >> locked in a broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.
> >>
> >>> What was your opponent's greatest strength?
> >>
> >> Atkinson demonstrated no strengths.
>
> > Well we will see for ourselves when the debate becomes available.
>
> Scott, you are so blinded by your arrogance and stupidity that you
> won't see anything meaningful.


If irony killed. But I see you are expecting to not look to good. I
won't let that affect *my* judgement.




>
> > If that were the case though, why no victory dance?
>
> It's not my style to dance on my opponent's grave.


LOL, it is your style to dance even when egg is hanging on your face.




>
> > You didn't destroy an unprepared opponent in a debate?
>
> I think that the problems with Atkinson's run down memory lane was
> self-evident to anybody who was unbiassed enough to understand the
> topic.


1. You thought you had an "unbiased" audience?
2. You thought it was better not to rebut a point and just hope the
audience saw it the way you did?
3. You think it is a good strategy to not challenge points made by the
opposition in a debate or at least call them out for what you see those
points to be?
WOW.



>
> >Well, we'll see and judge for ourselves.
>
> Not you Scott. You're head is too deeply imbedded where the sun
shines
> not.


This amounts to a concession speech in your world Arny. Your posturing
about me is a joke.




>
>
> > He obviously had nothing of
> >> substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical
> >> examples were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his
> own
> >> experiments.
>
> >> There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
> >> Primedia.
>
> >> And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child,
on
> >> his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate.
He
> >> obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody
who
> >> reads his articles in SP should know that.
> >>
> >>> Well, did you had fun yesterday?
> >>
> >> I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
> >> agree with the core ideals.
> >>
> >> The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
> >> really working hard to support the show. All of the service people
> I
> >> had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
> >> unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that
> >> can't be it.
>
> > That's kind of an ugly thing to say. You know some of us had
freinds
> > that died in 9/11.
>
> What's unclear about "no, they were innocents"? Obviously that is
very
> unclear to a person with your vastly reduced mentality, Scott.


OK I guess an idiot like you who thinks calling someone a pedophile is
an accpetable thing to do when loosing a debate on audio would fail to
see what a ****ed up thing it is to say what you said.



>
> >> The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
> >> stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is
> no
> >> longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)
>
> >> I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots
of
> >> points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
> >> products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
> >> very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?
>
>
> > I don't think you can say that without more experience with these
> > kinds of shows.
>
> I wasn't comparing them to other shows of this kind. I was comparing
> them to modern standards for competence.


Oh you were taking things out of context. Nothing new.



>
> > If you were surprised that the majority of the sound
> > was disappointing then you must be rather green when it comes to
> > shows like this and rather naive about the dhallenges one faces
with
> > getting good sound out of a hotel room.
>
> Enough people got it right enough that one could easily see how good
> sound was done.


Yep, you don't really get it. No surprise.



>
> >Good sounding exhibits have
> > always been the exception rather than the rule and one simply
cannot
> > expect to have the oppurtunity to listen to any given setup the way
> > it is meant to be heard with people in and out of the rooms.
>
> Depends on what you are listening to and for.


Not really. If you are not hearing the equipment the way it was
designed to be heard you are getting a false impression, period.




I'd never blow off a
> speaker on the grounds of tonal balance if it were smooth. However,
we
> heard a number of speakers that had big nasty holes in their
response,
> and you can't always blame that on the room.


You can't even comment on it unless you know the speakers are set up
the way they were designed to be set up and you are listening to them
from the correct position without other people walking infront of them
and talking.And you know the program material is not a problem etc...
You are simply missing the point about the problems of show conditions
or you don't really understand them. I'm not saying you *can't be
right* when you say something sounds bad I'm saying you have *no way of
knowing* that is the true nature of the equipment under show
conditions.



>
> > It's not a fiar envirement. It's like saying sports cars really
> don't perform
> > as claimed based on a test drive in rush hour traffic.
>
> Agreed, but when the sports car won't start, and then when started
it
> rolls over on its back...


Then it's broken. Which is not a reflection of a working version.



>
> >>> Which one did you find the most interesting?
> >>
> >> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
> >> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>
> > I am surprised you don't understand the issues involved in the
sound
> > one finds at these kinds of events.
>
> Since that is a figment of your mind Scott, I don't know why it
> surprises you.


It isn't a figment of my mind. It is a reflection of *your* claims.



Thanks for admitting that you don't know yourself!


Thanks again for showing you are a complete ****head when you feel safe
at home behind your computer. From all acounts you were a fart in a
punch bowl in person. No surprise there. The only surprise for me was
your willingness to demonstrate it.



>
> >> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end
> >> audio systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses,
> I
> >> figured out that they were needed to inflate the prices.






Scott Wheeler

[Schizoid Man]

"Steven Sullivan" > wrote in message

> Schizoid Man > wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>
>> >> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
>> >> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
>> >
>> >
>> > Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
>> > heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
>> > recordings.
>> >
>
>> I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?
>
> They make music.

Thanks for that splendid clarification. :-)

[John Atkinson]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Sorry that its probably going to be trimmed from the recording.

For goodness sake Mr. Krueger, leave it alone. At the time you
were shouting at Fremer and he was shouting back, I was spooling
mike cables having already removed the microphone from in front
of you. So, no I haven't trimmed yours and Michael's outbursts
from the recording because, as you well know, they weren't
recorded in the first place! Or are you going to tell me that
the person wearing your name badge who watched me remove the
mike and spool the cable was not you?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Steven Sullivan]

wrote:
> Hi Everyone,

> Ok, now that i have corrected the name spelling error (apologies to
> all and was quite surprised there was so much debate about it and
> slings/arrows thrown), how about we get back to the main subject at
> hand? Arny did indeed appear to be less hostile in person. Found this
> to be refreshing as the debate appeared to generally STAY ON TOPIC AND
> FOLLOW A NATURAL PROGRESSION.

> As someone who once truly enjoyed RAO many years ago, this newsgroups >
appears to have really degraded . The arguing about spelling errors, the >
constant name calling, and personal attacks that have nothing to do > with
the topic/subject at hand is quite childish. Would truly enjoy > seeing
RAO circa 2000 or so, though that time has long since past (am > referring
also to pre Zipser).


RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been a
Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop in an
unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always numbered.
One could spend time trying to killfile one's way into making RAO
worthwhile...I went that route for some time, but it just isn't worth it.
So other than the very occasional looksee and the even rarer post, I skip
RAO and stick to the moderated , high S/N versoin -- rec.audio.high-end.

[Steven Sullivan]

Lionel > wrote:
> Steven Sullivan a ?crit :
> > Schizoid Man > wrote:
> >
> >
> > wrote in message
> >
> >
> >>>>But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
> >>>>don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
> >>>heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
> >>>recordings.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >>I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?
> >
> >
> > They make music.


> That's true, like Pat Metheny and Ted Nugent.

Indeed, and no doubt some people fail to appreciate *their* music's
virtues on first listen.

[Steven Sullivan]

Schizoid Man > wrote:

> "Steven Sullivan" > wrote in message

> > Schizoid Man > wrote:
> >
> >> > wrote in message
> >
> >> >> But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
> >> >> don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
> >> > heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
> >> > recordings.
> >> >
> >
> >> I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?
> >
> > They make music.

> Thanks for that splendid clarification. :-)

You're welcome ;>

It isn't necessary for KC to have anything *more* than to do with MMW than
that, is it?

--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[John Atkinson]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> It may be that in my nervousness I didn't make the question direct
> enough, because the answer he gave didn't seem to address it.

I thought I had answered your question as I understood it, Mr.
Sullivan.
The recording will make it clear whether I did or not, and I would be
happy to elaborate on my answer once you have heard it, if you feel it
necessary. Thank you, BTW, for taking part in the debate. And you are
right about King Crimson.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Howard Ferstler]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>
> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.

These are reasons why I consider such shows to be a waste of
time for enthusiasts, and even for journalists who want to
get as much out of life as possible. The shows (particularly
those that cater to high enders) are mainly ways for sales
people to line up deals and glad hand.

Howard Ferstler

[[email protected]]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
>
<snipped>
>
>
> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been a

> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
in an
> unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always numbered.
>
>
....and let's not forget all of Middius' "little helpers".

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:


> John's anecdote seemed to me
> to boil down to: "I failed a DBT of an SS vs a tube amp...but when
I lived
> with the SS amp I hated it...then when I switched to the tube amp I
loved it...
> and therefore, DBTs are no damn good for substantiating audible
> difference."

That seems to me to net things out pretty well.

> To me this chain of reason was deeply flawed.

Agreed. It can be boiled down to: I did one DBT and didn't like how it
came out, therefore all DBTs are inherently flawed. It's about the
same error as saying "If a cocker spaniel is a dog then all dogs are
cocker spaniels".

> I asked him the (obvious to me) question -- even giving him the
> benefit of doubt that 'long term' listening might make the listener
> more sensitive to differences (consider it a form of 'training'; DBT
> advocates also advocate listener training) -- why didn't he then
> *REPEAT THE DBT*?

Good question. There are other questions that can be raised relating
to the details of the DBT. Was a speaker-like load involved? Was there
listener training of the kind that I provide at www.pcabx.com? Did he
have control over program material and switching? Was there any
assurance that the program material was of the kind that would elicit
poor performance from the UUT's?

>Surely something that had
> gradually evoked *such* a visceral dislike during weeks of
listening,
> would distinguish itself *now* in a DBT from the warm, fuzzy tube
> amp, right?

Another imbedded false assumption is the idea that that decades-old
DBT was fully comparable to the best that we can do today.

>Surely their sonic signatures were now engraved in memory?

In the face of such superficial thinking, who would know?

Just because this is what Atkinson thought 20 years ago doesn't mean
that it represents 20 years of thought. In contrast, the PCABX
methodology *is* based on over 20 years of thought and experience by a
number of skillful and highly motivated experimenters.

[Schizoid Man]

"Steven Sullivan" > wrote in message

>> Thanks for that splendid clarification. :-)
>
> You're welcome ;>
>
> It isn't necessary for KC to have anything *more* than to do with MMW than
> that, is it?

No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...

[Arny Krueger]

John Atkinson wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> Sorry that its probably going to be trimmed from the recording.
>
> For goodness sake Mr. Krueger, leave it alone. At the time you
> were shouting at Fremer and he was shouting back, I was spooling
> mike cables having already removed the microphone from in front
> of you.

Gee, those eyes in the back of my head are on the friz again!

> So, no I haven't trimmed yours and Michael's outbursts
> from the recording because, as you well know, they weren't
> recorded in the first place!

I can live with that. ;-)

>Or are you going to tell me that
> the person wearing your name badge who watched me remove the
> mike and spool the cable was not you?

Lots of things happened at the time that I don't have perfect
recollection of.

[Arny Krueger]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been
a
> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
> in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always
> numbered.

I guess you don't remember Allan/Ellen/Allen Derrida?

Change Middius to Derrida, move the clock back some months, and now
you have it like it was.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote:
> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>>
> <snipped>
>>
>>
>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been
a
>
>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up
shop
>> in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always
>> numbered.
>>
>>
> ...and let's not forget all of Middius' "little helpers".

....and those of Derrida before him.

[Surf]

"whosbest54" > wrote
>
> However, if one wants to rely on nonscientific subjectiveness, they have
> that right.
> But don't try to sell it as scientifically valid. It's based on opinions.


I believe it's possible that different music reproduction systems could have
different
subconscious effects. We're talking about vibrations. Maybe you don't hear
the
differences, but you feel them. Maybe one pattern of vibrations has a
calming
effect and another an irritating or neutral effect.

Still it should be possible to determine the differences somehow.

[Arny Krueger]

Surf wrote:
> "whosbest54" > wrote
>>
>> However, if one wants to rely on nonscientific subjectiveness, they
>> have that right.
>> But don't try to sell it as scientifically valid. It's based on
>> opinions.
>
>
> I believe it's possible that different music reproduction systems
> could have different subconscious effects. We're talking about
vibrations. Maybe you
> don't hear the differences, but you feel them. Maybe one pattern
of vibrations has a
> calming effect and another an irritating or neutral effect.

If this happened reliably and somehow crossed the line into conscious
perception, then it would be detectable with DBTs.

> Still it should be possible to determine the differences somehow.

Agreed.

[Lionel]

Steven Sullivan a écrit :
> Lionel > wrote:
>
>>Steven Sullivan a ?crit :
>>
>>>Schizoid Man > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>But we did have some other great live music this year, though I still
>>>>>>don't fully get what Medeski Martin + Wood are about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Agreed some music i simply do not fully understand. The first time i
>>>>>heard King Crimson in the early 1980's... Now i love those (now old)
>>>>>recordings.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I lost the thread... what exactly does MMW have to do with King Crimson?
>>>
>>>
>>>They make music.
>
>
>
>>That's true, like Pat Metheny and Ted Nugent.
>
>
> Indeed, and no doubt some people fail to appreciate *their* music's
> virtues on first listen.


Oh this was the point...
My MMW was Ornette Coleman and my King Krimson was Jeff Beck...

[George M. Middius]

John Atkinson said:

> > this is a good example of how you perceived what I posted
> > differently than what I intended and was thinking when I
> > wrote it. I think that sort of misunderstanding contributes
> > to the problems in usenet.
>
> I am sure you are correct in this feeling.

You were also correct in imputing an intention to criticize to 54borg.
This individual, sometimes suspected (but not proven) to be Greg Pavlov,
was long ago co-opted by the Hive. Hence, to 54borg, you are evil
incarnate.

[George M. Middius]

Sulliborg said:

> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been a
> Middius here, really.

<blush>

You do me such an honor, sir. Do I then deserve the full credit for
achieving the absence of your malodorous self from these confines? I've
always suspected you lesser 'borgs are not completely irrational and
totally lacking in analytical skill, unlike your deeply warped and
ideological leaders, the Major 'Borgs. I accept your praise in the spirit
of mutual contempt, and may the BorgSmugSnot be with you. Always.

[George M. Middius]

John Atkinson said:

> I am sorry you feel that way, Mr. Krueger. If you had a problem
> with this, should you not have raised it back in November when
> you agreed to this format? As it stands, I don't believe I did
> anything to cramp your style as a debater. And as with the other
> claims you and others have made about the debate, I believe
> that people in general would be wise to hold off expressing
> opinions on matters like this until they can listen to the
> recording.

I will be amazed if Krooger comes off as anything less than the total dork
we know him to be. ;-)

[Lionel]

Schizoid Man a écrit :
> "Steven Sullivan" > wrote in message
>
>
>>>Thanks for that splendid clarification. :-)
>>
>>You're welcome ;>
>>
>>It isn't necessary for KC to have anything *more* than to do with MMW than
>>that, is it?
>
>
> No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...

Average musicians combinating their culinary knowledge to
cook lovingly some of the greatest moments of the Soup-Rock. ;-)

[George M. Middius]

The Little **** said:

[nothing]

Are you okay, Thing? You made a whole post without mentioning me or Tom or
dave. Or, dare one think it, Marc. <cue panic attack from Thing>

[George M. Middius]

John Atkinson said:

> Implying, of course. He implies, I infer. -- JA

Mostly, of course, Krooger defecates.

[George M. Middius]

Joseph Oberlander said:

> What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
> doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
> I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.

This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
plainly a month or more ago.

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said:

> Evidently the difference between Kreuger and Krueger is too subtle for
> you ;-)

A **** by any other name is just as Kroogerish.

[George M. Middius]

Joseph Oberlander said:

> Other than the idiot(maybe "newbie" instead) part, yes - never
> ever EVER trust someone else's setup to work. Bring your own.
> I don't even trust the client to have proper hand tools to
> open their computer case. And you know what - it's never let
> me down having this philosophy :)

Are you soliticiting Turdborg to take you on as a partner? Sad to say, no
matter how much of a genius or brilliant businessman you might be, Krooger
is beyond repair.

[Lionel]

In om>,
wrote :

>
> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>>
> <snipped>
>>
>>
>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been a
>
>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
> in an
>> unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always numbered.

Ingrat, George "Betty Boop" Middius is a fragile little thing ruined by
complex and contradictions.
Give him a chance !

> ...and let's not forget all of Middius' "little helpers".

[Surf]

> wrote

> If it's not available by the end of today (5/2/05), I think we'll know
> the answer.

Does a CDR in today's mail work for you, Richard?
Maybe Arny will put a copy on his website.

[George M. Middius]

John Atkinson said:

> I have now apologized for this mishap to Mr. Krueger on
> multiple occasions; I fail to undertsnad why he is still
> making an issue of it. And in my opinion, given that his
> slides were text-based, I don't the mishap materially
> affected the efficacy of his presentation.

Krooger is sewing the 'borg equivalent of a loser's parachute. Near as I
can tell, it's made entirely of Pure Debating Trade™ loose-weave fabric
and stitched together with BorgSmugSnot thread.

[George M. Middius]

Brother Horace the Eternally Ignored said:

> The shows (particularly
> those that cater to high enders) are mainly ways for sales
> people to line up deals and glad hand.

Yet another party to which you'll never be invited.

[Clyde Slick]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...

>
> According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains and
> ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the parasitic
> contributions from the usual polluters and hatemongers : Middius, Sackman,
> Weil, Richman...
>


hatemongering would be irrelevant, unless the debate were about France.



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[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

>
>
> The Little **** said:
>
> [nothing]
>
> Are you okay, Thing? You made a whole post without mentioning me or Tom or
> dave...

Is it to celebrate this performance that you haven't written anything about Arnold Krueger ?


Nota : "Tom" is correctly capitalized but not "dave"...
Is it a kind of hierarchy that you use to distinguish some of your flunkeys ?




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[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

>
>
> The Little Sh




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[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...

> Did that include the test of the Quad 405? Interesting question - I
> have a friend who tells me he has one. When my house project is done
> and my house is in some kind of order, I may set up a PCABX test of
> it.
>

castanets, here we come!



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[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>
>> Or was there a set of graphics or a data presentation too?
>
> No. It was only about 5 pages. 5 pages, 5 minutes - that's how it came
> out during rehearsals.
>


Did they subtantially rouse the Boys in The Basement?



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[Clyde Slick]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> Sorry that its probably going to be trimmed from the recording.
>
> For goodness sake Mr. Krueger, leave it alone. At the time you
> were shouting at Fremer and he was shouting back, I was spooling
> mike cables having already removed the microphone from in front
> of you. So, no I haven't trimmed yours and Michael's outbursts
> from the recording because, as you well know, they weren't
> recorded in the first place! Or are you going to tell me that
> the person wearing your name badge who watched me remove the
> mike and spool the cable was not you?
>
> John Atkinson
> Editor, Stereophile
>

Ah, so John Parcher did show up after all.



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[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

>
>
> John Atkinson said:
>
> > I am sorry you feel that way, Mr. Krueger. If you had a problem
> > with this, should you not have raised it back in November when
> > you agreed to this format? As it stands, I don't believe I did
> > anything to cramp your style as a debater. And as with the other
> > claims you and others have made about the debate, I believe
> > that people in general would be wise to hold off expressing
> > opinions on matters like this until they can listen to the
> > recording.
>


> ;-)


George, have you a particular taste for the small bearded quinquagenarian ?

;-)




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[Lionel_Chapuis]

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[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> John Atkinson wrote:
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> Sorry that its probably going to be trimmed from the recording.
>>
>> For goodness sake Mr. Krueger, leave it alone. At the time you
>> were shouting at Fremer and he was shouting back, I was spooling
>> mike cables having already removed the microphone from in front
>> of you.
>
> Gee, those eyes in the back of my head are on the friz again!
>
>
>>Or are you going to tell me that
>> the person wearing your name badge who watched me remove the
>> mike and spool the cable was not you?
>

Arny, thank you for admitting that
you wear your nameplate on your ass.

If the nameplate fits, it must be Mr. ****s.



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[Lionel]

In >, Clyde Slick wrote :


> ...unless the debate were about France.

It doesn't matter since you have proved so many times that you are not
enough courageous nor intelligent to be really dangerous.

[Schizoid Man]

"Lionel" > wrote in message

> Schizoid Man a écrit :

>> No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...
>
> Average musicians combinating their culinary knowledge to cook lovingly
> some of the greatest moments of the Soup-Rock. ;-)

Average musicians? And I thought only Middius could make such moronic
comments! ;-)

[Robert Morein]

"Margaret von B." > wrote in message
...
>
[snip[
> >
>
> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with Arnie
> as well.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Margaret
>
I guess "irony" CAN kill :)

[Schizoid Man]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
> of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
> relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
> there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
> approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
> the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.

It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
having the debate in the first place.

I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
scatological reference.

[Schizoid Man]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message

Bob,

I've seen a bunch of messages on rec.audio.marketplace saying that the Sound
Emporium is a scam. Frankly, they have not been forthcoming about
information on their products and listings. I saw your name mentioned in one
of their posts.

Have you had any experience with these guys?

[Lionel]

In >, Schizoid Man wrote :

>
> "Lionel" > wrote in message
>
>> Schizoid Man a écrit :
>
>>> No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...
>>
>> Average musicians combinating their culinary knowledge to cook lovingly
>> some of the greatest moments of the Soup-Rock. ;-)
>
> Average musicians? And I thought only Middius could make such moronic
> comments! ;-)

Don't be so severe with me, it was just to make a little bit noise.
Note that King Crimson isn't my bowl of soup.

[Lionel]

In >, Schizoid Man wrote :

>
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>
> > This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire
> > issue
>> of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
>> relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
>> there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
>> approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
>> the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.
>
> It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
> vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
> having the debate in the first place.
>
> I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
> scatological reference.

"Having a "debate" about this is like debating the virtues of pepper vs.
salt -- it's meaningless".

It would be interesting at this point to know :
- If George remembers that John Atkinson is at the initiator and the
oragnizator of the "debate" ?
- If George remembers that he pretended that John Atkinson will pulverized
Arnold Krueger's arguments during the "debate" ?
- Why, during the past months, George has done so much noise around such
"meaningless" subject ?

I'm afraid that we will remain without any answers to these questions.

:-D

[George M. Middius]

Schizoid Man said:

> > This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
> > of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
> > relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
> > there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
> > approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
> > the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.
>
> It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
> vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
> having the debate in the first place.

Your fantasies interest you? Not surprising.

You've completely misconstrued what I said. Did you doff your dot in honor
of the so-called "debate", or have you been sniffing fairy dust?

> I am impressed. You managed an entire paragraph without a single
> scatological reference.

You're becoming suspiciously ****ty. Time for a bath, perhaps? ;-)

[[email protected]]

Lionel wrote:
>
<snipped>
>
> George "Betty Boop" Middius is a fragile little thing ruined by
> complex and contradictions.
>
>
His Momma made the poor little feygele do things with his shmekel while
his sisters 'watched'. :-0

[Robert Morein]

"Lionel" > wrote in message
...
> In >, Robert Morein wrote :
>
> >
> > "Lionel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Robert Morein a écrit :
> >> > "Michael Conzo" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> >>In article om,
"John
> >> >>Atkinson" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
> >> >>>to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
> >> >>>Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
> >> >>>been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
> >> >>>Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
> >> >>>a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output.
> >> >>
> >> >>This, along with your failure to stop the Harry Lavo filibuster,
showed
> >> >>incredible bias and abuse of Mr. Krueger in my opinion.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Michael Conzo" is actually Brian L. McCarty.
> >> > I advise everyone to avoid interaction with this person.
> >> > His history on usenet is unsavory, and involves harassment of others
on
> >> > usenet by identity theft, as well as websites that may have been
> > attempts at
> >> > investment fraud.
> >>
> >> We are on RAO Bob !!!
> > Lionel,
> > McCarty is not like us. His activities have in the past had the
> > appearance of investment fraud. His website, "Coral Sea Studios", was at
> > one time populated by many false endorsements, including my name. His
> > "worldjazz" website used fictitious front people and stolen identities
> > from unsuspecting people. I have copies of these pages. Many people
> > suspect him of email "bombing" and propagation of computer viruses. The
> > FBI determined that he used a false identity to infiltrate a film
project
> > I was running. Charges were presented by the FBI to the U.S. Attorney's
> > office, District of Connecticut. At the time, they chose not to
prosecute.
> > However, this is a discretionary choice of the U.S. Attorney's office,
> > even if he may have violated statutes. The records of the investigation
> > remain in the records of the FBI, available by subpoena to anyone who
> > wishes to file a civil suit against him.
> >
> > Last fall, there was intervention at the level of "head of state" to
> > stop McCarty's schemes. This appears to have succeeded.
> >
> > There is no one like McCarty on this group. Everyone I know and
argue
> > with on rao is, IMHO, a good and upstanding citizen. This includes Arny.
I
> > may argue with Arny, and my ridicule may be harsh, but he is someone who
I
> > would change a tire for. As I would for anyone else.
> >
> > I urge that we not give McCarty or his sockpuppets the legitimacy he
> > desires. He is not a good man.
>
> Sorry Bob I forgot the duplicity of the guy.

No problemo :)

[Joseph Oberlander]

Lionel wrote:
> Joseph Oberlander a écrit :
>
>>
>>> For comparison, your opening prepared statement, including
>>> reading your PowerPoint slides, lasted 7:37, while my
>>> opening statement lasted 9:05.
>>>
>>> John Atkinson
>>> Editor, Stereophile
>>
>>
>>
>> Somehow I have this mental image of two old crotchety
>> men rambling on and on and on and on in this incredibly
>> boring voice that puts you to sleep...
>>
>> Arny: I think that blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
>> John: Well I think blah bla blah bla blah bla blah
>
>
>
>
>> Q: Was anything at all decided? Did either one of you actually
>> discuss something and come to a change of mind as a result?
>> Of not, it's just two monologues and not a real debate.
>
>
> According to Atkinson wish Krueger has been able to explains and
> ellaborate his point of view in *person*... without the parasitic
> contributions from the usual polluters and hatemongers : Middius,
> Sackman, Weil, Richman...
>
> Note that they have done their best during the months before to
> exacerbate the passions, to provocate... in order to change the debate
> in a bull**** scuffle.
>
> Nobody wins ? Sure !
> But IMHO it's not really important since the villains have lost.
>
> :-)


You're probably right, but jhezzeus. 7 and 9 minutes respectively?
Me? My intro would have been this as John:
"Well, I'd like top say thanks you as well to everyone who came. Now,
unlike Arny, you all know who I am. I don't need to tell you all about
my past as it's covered in the convention booklet and can be found
as well at the magazine's website. That said, let's get down to audio.
Arny..."(insert direct in your-face question here)

Maybe 30-45 seconds tops then into a real discussion. Nine minutes
is ubsurd. Nobody gives a damn about what you did 20 years ago.
You, either Arny. This is like watching two politicians go at it.
Nobody gets in the other's face, nothing gets resolved.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Steven Sullivan wrote:

> to boil down to: "I failed a DBT of an SS vs a tube amp...but when I lived
> with the SS amp I hated it...

ie: "It was butt-ugly and I wasn't happy with it"(fair enough reason)

> then when I switched to the tube amp I loved it...

ie: "I like glowing tubes as they create a more interactive and
pleasing image"(fair enough as well)

> and therefore, DBTs are no damn good for substantiating audible difference."

ie:"I don't want to admit that my decision was purely emotional
as real men don't admit they have emotions about audio decor."

[dave weil]

On 2 May 2005 18:26:10 -0700, wrote:

>
>Lionel wrote:
>>
><snipped>
>>
>> George "Betty Boop" Middius is a fragile little thing ruined by
>> complex and contradictions.
>>
>>
>His Momma made the poor little feygele do things with his shmekel while
>his sisters 'watched'. :-0

This has been a really helpful thread for RAO...

<chuckle>

[Joseph Oberlander]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> wrote:
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>EddieM wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Arny Krueger wrote
>>>
>>>>>>EddieM wrote:
>
>
>>>>>Here's a working link:
>
>
>>>>>http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2005/atkinsonkrueger.html
>
>
>>>>>The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
>>>>>Lavo's 108 minute, more or less, marathon

(snip huge tangled post)

UG! Arny Ginsu'd that post into tiny little sentance fragment
bits. PLease just answer in paragraph style - it's painful
to read through that large a wad of hash.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 17:37:48 -0400, Howard Ferstler
> wrote:

>Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
>> amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.
>>
>> I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
>> systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
>> out that they were needed to inflate the prices.
>
>These are reasons why I consider such shows to be a waste of
>time for enthusiasts, and even for journalists who want to
>get as much out of life as possible. The shows (particularly
>those that cater to high enders) are mainly ways for sales
>people to line up deals and glad hand.

That's the real purpose of ANY kind of trade show. The demonstrations
and exhibitions are just window dressing.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Mike McKelvy wrote:

> Joseph Oberlander said:
>
>
>
>
>
>>What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
>>doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
>>I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.
>
>
> What needed to be resolved? It's already well estaqblishjed that the
> Stereophile methodolgy for discerning the qualities of audio gear are
> worthless. Having a chance to wrap up JA's slithering out of the
> previous attempts to pin him down in a one on one with Arny was the
> most important thing to come out the whole thing. Well that and
> knowing that Fremer is still a spoiled brat, and hasn't changed much
> since he attacked Nousaine at some other show several years ago.

Well, hopefully any live debate like this would at least attempt
a serious discussion of some sort. Then again, it WAS a convention,
which is pretty much a waste of time and space going in.

[dave weil]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:50 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Steven Sullivan wrote:
>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been
>a
>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
>> in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always
>> numbered.
>
>I guess you don't remember Allan/Ellen/Allen Derrida?
>
>Change Middius to Derrida, move the clock back some months, and now
>you have it like it was.

Of course, ironically, the constant here is Krueger.

[Joseph Oberlander]

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Joseph Oberlander said:
>
>
>>What, you mean two old farts pontificating forever and not really
>>doing anytihng other than stating their own opinions? From what
>>I heard, absolutely nothing was resolved. You both failed.
>
>
> This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
> of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
> relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
> there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
> approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
> the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
> obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
> not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
> delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
> objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
> plainly a month or more ago.

You made my point quite well. :) It was utterly pointless and they
both are failures. A *REAL* discussion would have focused on
a couple of topics and gone into them in depth. There was zero
intellectual knowledge to be gained from this by the convention
goers, which is why I said they both failed. The time and space
at the convention should have been for the convention atendees'
benefit instead of time for Arny and John to blather on and on.

[Joseph Oberlander]

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Joseph Oberlander said:
>
>
>>Other than the idiot(maybe "newbie" instead) part, yes - never
>>ever EVER trust someone else's setup to work. Bring your own.
>>I don't even trust the client to have proper hand tools to
>>open their computer case. And you know what - it's never let
>>me down having this philosophy :)
>
>
> Are you soliticiting Turdborg to take you on as a partner? Sad to say, no
> matter how much of a genius or brilliant businessman you might be, Krooger
> is beyond repair.

God, no. I don't have time to deal with teaching anybody
right now(not that most of the people here would bother
they're so set in their ways)

[Robert Morein]

"Schizoid Man" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>
> Bob,
>
> I've seen a bunch of messages on rec.audio.marketplace saying that the
Sound
> Emporium is a scam. Frankly, they have not been forthcoming about
> information on their products and listings. I saw your name mentioned in
one
> of their posts.
>
> Have you had any experience with these guys?
>
All of the messages that claim Sound Emporium are scammers have been
authored by Brian L. McCarty, mostly using his "Official Ram Bluebook"
sockpuppet.
There are two aspects to this:
1. Brian L. McCarty claims they are scammers, but he is himself a highly
dubious individual, who has accused many innocent people.
2. No complaint against Sound Emporium has ever surfaced in r.a.m, except
for one that was clearly forged by McCarty.

As for my experience with them, I find their way of doing business to be a
bit strange, but I can't find anything to indicate customer discontent. I do
know that two of McCarty's claims about them are blatently false.

1. McCarty has claimed that they sell counterfeit Sennheiser headphones, and
that they are not "authorized dealers." I called up Sennheiser North
America, had a discussion with Mr. Douglas, and was told that unlike many or
most hifi manufacturers, Sennheiser does not rely on an authorized dealer
network. Instead, they rely on three national distributors, who sell to
anybody. ANYBODY can resell Sennheiser headphones with warranty. They do
this because they want their phones omnipresent in record stores and other
small shops.
Sennheiser does have a very few "authorized dealers", large national chains
and resellers who can afford the onerous volume requirements, such as Best
Buy, J&R, and so forth. However, a reseller who purchases from one of their
distributors is perfectly legitimate. Sennheiser even honors warranty claims
on gray market products, because their products are so reliable it the costs
are negligible.

Mr. Douglas told me there are no counterfeit Sennheiser headphones. Computer
audio by Sennheiser, however, has been counterfeited.

2. A while back McCarty also accused Sound Emporium of not having a
legitimate relationship with Earmax. I tracked down the U.K. (I think, it's
been a while) manufacturer, Hart Huschens, who verified that they were, at
the time, and possibly still, the U.S. authorized importer of Earmax
products.

So the question arises, if Sound Emporium is legitimate, and I think they
are, why don't they do the right thing and provide full contact information,
a linecard, etc. ? I can't really answer that question, but I have a few
suggestions:

1. They may have a warehouse, or private residence, that is not completely
secure against burglary. They may have a valuable inventory, the location of
which they may wish to keep secret.
2. They may not pay taxes. I have a feeling that they do, because McCarty
loves to snitch, and has probably been nagging local, state, and federal
authorities to investigate them. McCarty has hounded numerous people on
r.a.m., mostly without success.
3. They may not have a properly registered business. Once again, I doubt
this, because McCarty has probably been complaining to the local tax
authorities for years. He's been complaining that one Donald Winslow in
Portland Oregon, has an unregistered business, he has been complaining for
three years, and the guy is still in business.

My position on this is as follows: If anyone, be it McCarty, or anyone else,
accuses enough people, some bad apples will be caught, just by accident. But
the cost of McCarty's witch hunt is simply unacceptable -- namely, damaging
the reputations and livelyhoods of innocent people. As far as I am aware,
the only person in McCarty's FAQ list who actually deserves to be there is
Randy Boggess, but McCarty had nothing to do with it. It was Dave Palmer who
ran Boggess to ground, and right into West Virginia court.

As it stands, Sound Emporium has to be given the benefit of the doubt. No
one has ever accused them, and yet they advertise constantly in r.a.m. It
would be very strange for unhappy people to remain silent. Consequently, I
give them the benefit of the doubt, and suggest that we let their reputation
be our guide.

I do not have any association with Sound Emporium. The reason I have chosen
to respond to McCarty's posts about Sound Emporium are related to a detailed
assessment of McCarty's psychological makeup, AND to unburden r.a.m. with
replies to McCarty that some people felt were excessive in number.

As always, I'm open to talk about this subject: (215) 646-4894
Bob Morein

[Surf]

"Joseph Oberlander" attempts humor....

> ie: "It was butt-ugly and I wasn't happy with it"(fair enough reason)
>
> ie: "I like glowing tubes as they create a more interactive and
> pleasing image"(fair enough as well)
>
> ie:"I don't want to admit that my decision was purely emotional
> as real men don't admit they have emotions about audio decor."


Isn't it fun making jokes with guys that think science knows everything?

what if.........?

[Steven Sullivan]

John Atkinson > wrote:

> Steven Sullivan wrote:
> > It may be that in my nervousness I didn't make the question direct
> > enough, because the answer he gave didn't seem to address it.

> I thought I had answered your question as I understood it, Mr.
> Sullivan.
> The recording will make it clear whether I did or not, and I would be
> happy to elaborate on my answer once you have heard it, if you feel it
> necessary.

Quite so...it may turn out that the fault in comprehension was
mine, not yours. My question should be quite clear to both of us now, though.

> Thank you, BTW, for taking part in the debate. And you are
> right about King Crimson.

They're the King Crimson-est.


--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Steven Sullivan]

Lionel > wrote:
> In >, Schizoid Man wrote :

> >
> > "Lionel" > wrote in message
> >
> >> Schizoid Man a ?crit :
> >
> >>> No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...
> >>
> >> Average musicians combinating their culinary knowledge to cook lovingly
> >> some of the greatest moments of the Soup-Rock. ;-)
> >
> > Average musicians? And I thought only Middius could make such moronic
> > comments! ;-)

> Don't be so severe with me, it was just to make a little bit noise.
> Note that King Crimson isn't my bowl of soup.

They've been known to make a little bit of noise too. ;>


--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

[Lionel]

In >, dave weil wrote :

> On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:50 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote:
>
>>Steven Sullivan wrote:
>>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been
>>a
>>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
>>> in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always
>>> numbered.
>>
>>I guess you don't remember Allan/Ellen/Allen Derrida?
>>
>>Change Middius to Derrida, move the clock back some months, and now
>>you have it like it was.
>
> Of course, ironically, the constant here is Krueger.

Oh no Dave the real irony is really more cruel than that.
Since many years Arnold was providing a goal to your life, this was your
daily antidepressant...
The real irony Dave is to see your pathetic and grotesque efforts to recover
the few attention he was granted you...
Sad, very sad.

[Lionel]

"8hz" dave wrote :

> On 2 May 2005 18:26:10 -0700, wrote:
>
>>
>>Lionel wrote:
>>>
>><snipped>
>>>
>>> George "Betty Boop" Middius is a fragile little thing ruined by
>>> complex and contradictions.
>>>
>>>
>>His Momma made the poor little feygele do things with his shmekel while
>>his sisters 'watched'. :-0
>
> This has been a really helpful thread for RAO.

Glad to see you rally our POV, Dave.
Thank you for your support.

[Lionel]

In >, Steven Sullivan wrote :

> Lionel > wrote:
>> In >, Schizoid Man wrote :
>
>> >
>> > "Lionel" > wrote in message
>> >
>> >> Schizoid Man a ?crit :
>> >
>> >>> No it isn't. I'm a bit of a KC nut, so I was just wondering...
>> >>
>> >> Average musicians combinating their culinary knowledge to cook
>> >> lovingly some of the greatest moments of the Soup-Rock. ;-)
>> >
>> > Average musicians? And I thought only Middius could make such moronic
>> > comments! ;-)
>
>> Don't be so severe with me, it was just to make a little bit noise.
>> Note that King Crimson isn't my bowl of soup.
>
> They've been known to make a little bit of noise too. ;>


True, an overvalued academic noise IMHO.
Note that I haven't heard anything from Fripp since the begining of the 80s.

[Lionel]

In >, Robert Morein wrote :

>
> "Margaret von B." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
> [snip[
>> >
>>
>> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a tire iron with
>> Arnie as well.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Margaret


> I guess "irony" CAN kill :)


Yes, Maggie is our RAO "Iron Lady"...

:-D

[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

>
>
> Schizoid Man said:
>
> > > This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
> > > of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
> > > relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
> > > there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
> > > approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
> > > the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless.
> >
> > It's interesting how you've switched from your usual personal attacks, and
> > vociferously stating that Krueger would never show up, to arguing against
> > having the debate in the first place.
>
> Your fantasies interest you? Not surprising.
>
> You've completely misconstrued what I said. Did you doff your dot in honor
> of the so-called "debate", or have you been sniffing fairy dust?

Middius usual tatic... immediate flight, as far as possible from the subject of disagreement. :-)

Tell us George on which criteria have you purchased your audio system ?

Perhaps the "overwhelming consensus of the opinions of wine connoisseurs" ? LOL !

:-D




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

[George M. Middius]

Obie said:

> >>>>>Lavo's 108 minute

> (snip huge tangled post)

> UG! Arny Ginsu'd that post into tiny little sentance fragment
> bits. PLease just answer in paragraph style - it's painful
> to read through that large a wad of hash.

Are you trying to strip Mr. **** of one of his main "debating trade"
dodges? Shame on you.

[George M. Middius]

Obie-Wanna-Clue said:

> > This is among your stupider comments this decade, Obie. The entire issue
> > of "evaluating" audio equipment is one of preference. There are no
> > relevant facts about "tests" if you don't want to do them, and similarly
> > there is nothing meaningful to you metrons in the listen-for-enjoyment
> > approach taken by Normals. Having a "debate" about this is like debating
> > the virtues of pepper vs. salt -- it's meaningless. Therefore, it's pretty
> > obvious that the "debate" wasn't intended to "resolve" anything, at least
> > not on JA's part. Maybe Krooger went in carting his usual truckload of
> > delusions and paranoia; who knows. But you can easily discern JA's
> > objectives for inviting Mr. **** to take the floor, since he stated them
> > plainly a month or more ago.
>
> You made my point quite well. :) It was utterly pointless and they
> both are failures.

Funny how two people can read the same words and understand them
completely differently....


> A *REAL* discussion would have focused on
> a couple of topics and gone into them in depth.

In your terms, that would have been equally pointless. In my terms, which
you still don't understand, it depends what the topics were.

> There was zero
> intellectual knowledge to be gained from this by the convention
> goers, which is why I said they both failed.

True but irrelevant.

> The time and space
> at the convention should have been for the convention atendees'
> benefit instead of time for Arny and John to blather on and on.

You have completely missed the point of the exercise. Let's hope your
business acumen is a tiny bit better, else we'll have to dismiss you as a
Ferstler wannabe.

[George M. Middius]

dave weil said:

> This has been a really helpful thread for RAO...
>
> <chuckle>

I'll trade you two Things and a Sluttie for a Krooborg and your Nousiane.

[Lionel_Chapuis]

George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:


> I'll trade you two...


As mythomaniac and vain than Trotsky...

:-D




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

[Arny Krueger]

Lionel wrote:
> In >, Robert Morein
wrote :
>
>>
>> "Margaret von B." >
wrote in
>> message ...
>>>
>> [snip[
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a
tire iron with
>>> Arnie as well.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Margaret
>
>
>> I guess "irony" CAN kill :)
>
>
> Yes, Maggie is our RAO "Iron Lady"...

This "Iron Lady" nickname would be confusing to many of
Maggies clients and close associates, given that "Iron Lady"
usually suggests highly controlled sexual activities.

[Arny Krueger]

Surf wrote:

> "Joseph Oberlander" does humor....

>> ie: "It was butt-ugly and I wasn't happy with it"(fair
enough reason)

>> ie: "I like glowing tubes as they create a more
interactive and
>> pleasing image"(fair enough as well)

>> ie:"I don't want to admit that my decision was purely
emotional
>> as real men don't admit they have emotions about audio
decor."

> Isn't it fun making jokes with guys that think science
knows
> everything?

Who might that be?

[Arny Krueger]

Lionel wrote:
> In >, dave weil
wrote :
>
>> On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:50 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>>>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as
there's been
>>> a
>>>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like
that set up
>>>> shop in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are
almost always
>>>> numbered.
>>>
>>> I guess you don't remember Allan/Ellen/Allen Derrida?
>>>
>>> Change Middius to Derrida, move the clock back some
months, and now
>>> you have it like it was.
>>
>> Of course, ironically, the constant here is Krueger.
>
> Oh no Dave the real irony is really more cruel than that.
> Since many years Arnold was providing a goal to your life,
this was
> your daily antidepressant...
> The real irony Dave is to see your pathetic and grotesque
efforts to
> recover the few attention he was granted you...
> Sad, very sad.

Not only that, but Dave is revising history. Derrida (and
Zipser) was actively trashing RAO for months if not years
before I posted here the first time.

[dave weil]

On 03 May 2005 11:58:40 GMT, Lionel_Chapuis <> wrote:

> George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:
>
>
>> I'll trade you two...
>
>
>As mythomaniac and vain than Trotsky...

So, why don't you seek some help for yourself then?

I'll have to admit, it take a lot of courage for you to admit this,
Lionel.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 03 May 2005 08:43:11 +0200, Lionel >
wrote:

>In >, dave weil wrote :
>
>> On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:42:50 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Steven Sullivan wrote:
>>>> RAO's been a cesspit for as long as...well, as long as there's been
>>>a
>>>> Middius here, really. When malignant entities like that set up shop
>>>> in an unmoderated newsgroup, its useful days are almost always
>>>> numbered.
>>>
>>>I guess you don't remember Allan/Ellen/Allen Derrida?
>>>
>>>Change Middius to Derrida, move the clock back some months, and now
>>>you have it like it was.
>>
>> Of course, ironically, the constant here is Krueger.
>
>Oh no Dave the real irony is really more cruel than that.
>Since many years Arnold was providing a goal to your life, this was your
>daily antidepressant...
>The real irony Dave is to see your pathetic and grotesque efforts to recover
>the few attention he was granted you...
>Sad, very sad.

What's sadder is that I now perform that very function for YOU.

AT least you've had your daily dose. I hope this alows you to make
love to your wife now.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 3 May 2005 08:19:09 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>
>Not only that, but Dave is revising history. Derrida (and
>Zipser) was actively trashing RAO for months if not years
>before I posted here the first time.

Not according to this thread, which talks about how low RAO has fallen
in recent years.

Just waiting now for Lionel's inevitable reply, so that you can
respond to this...

[whosbest54]

In article >,
says...
>
>John Atkinson said:
>
>> > this is a good example of how you perceived what I posted
>> > differently than what I intended and was thinking when I
>> > wrote it. I think that sort of misunderstanding contributes
>> > to the problems in usenet.
>>
>> I am sure you are correct in this feeling.
>
>You were also correct in imputing an intention to criticize to 54borg.
>This individual, sometimes suspected (but not proven) to be Greg Pavlov,
>was long ago co-opted by the Hive. Hence, to 54borg, you are evil
>incarnate.
>
Whatta maroon! lol

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://members.aol.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[Powell]

"John Atkinson" wrote

> "If, after having listened to the best that high-end audio
> has to offer, both in the way of digital and analog
> playback, Mr. Krueger still feels that the whole business
> is a fraud, well at least that opinion will be based on
> exposure to it".
>
Do you think Arny has changed his mind?

Would you do it again (make the offer to debate Arny)
knowing what you do now?

[Joseph Oberlander]

Surf wrote:
> "Joseph Oberlander" attempts humor....
>
>
>>ie: "It was butt-ugly and I wasn't happy with it"(fair enough reason)
>>
>>ie: "I like glowing tubes as they create a more interactive and
>>pleasing image"(fair enough as well)
>>
>>ie:"I don't want to admit that my decision was purely emotional
>>as real men don't admit they have emotions about audio decor."
>
>
>
> Isn't it fun making jokes with guys that think science knows everything?
>
> what if.........?

This actually is what most tube vs SS choice comes down to.
People like their little glowing tubes and don't like their
huge wad of sterile looking aluminum and steel.

Then they spend eons justifying it rather than just admiting
that they like how one looks more than the other(which is a
perfectly valid reason if their egos would allow them to admit it)

[Joseph Oberlander]

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Obie said:
>
>
>>>>>>>Lavo's 108 minute
>
>
>>(snip huge tangled post)
>
>
>>UG! Arny Ginsu'd that post into tiny little sentance fragment
>>bits. PLease just answer in paragraph style - it's painful
>>to read through that large a wad of hash.
>
>
> Are you trying to strip Mr. **** of one of his main "debating trade"
> dodges? Shame on you.

Normally I don't care, but that one was especially tangled.
I actually stopped reading it halfway though as it became a
chore to figure out who was quoting who.

[Joseph Oberlander]

George M. Middius wrote:

>>There was zero
>>intellectual knowledge to be gained from this by the convention
>>goers, which is why I said they both failed.
>
> True but irrelevant.

I think the larger picture is to have something that the people
who paid their money can get something out of, given the forum
in which it was taking place. If it can't do this, it's a
waste of time and the other considerations are rendered
(nearly but not completely) moot.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Surf wrote:

>>Isn't it fun making jokes with guys that think science
>
> knows
>
>>everything?
>
>
> Who might that be?

Actually it was quite clear that I was talking about John's
accounting of "how DBX let me down". He bought an ugly
chunk of metal and wanted his warm glowing tubes instead,
but was obviously unable to admit that it was his bias
instead of the testing methods.

[John Atkinson]

Powell wrote:
> Do you think Arny has changed his mind?

>From what he has posted in the past few days, sadly no.
What was it Dorothy Parker said? "You can drag a whore
to culture but you can't make her drink"?

> Would you do it again (make the offer to debate Arny)
> knowing what you do now?

Sure. Why not? At least the idiots who were proclaiming
that I was afraid to debate Mr. Krueger in public can
now let that subject die. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[MINe 109]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> Lionel wrote:
> > In >, Robert Morein
> wrote :
> >
> >>
> >> "Margaret von B." >
> wrote in
> >> message ...
> >>>
> >> [snip[
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you Bob. I would have an exchange with a
> tire iron with
> >>> Arnie as well.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>>
> >>> Margaret
> >
> >
> >> I guess "irony" CAN kill :)
> >
> >
> > Yes, Maggie is our RAO "Iron Lady"...
>
> This "Iron Lady" nickname would be confusing to many of
> Maggies clients and close associates, given that "Iron Lady"
> usually suggests highly controlled sexual activities.

Or, to those of us less perverted, Margaret Thatcher.

Stephen

[[email protected]]

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>
> > to boil down to: "I failed a DBT of an SS vs a tube amp...but when
I lived
> > with the SS amp I hated it...
>
> ie: "It was butt-ugly and I wasn't happy with it"(fair enough reason)


All be it one *you* invented. If that is fair in your mind.....




>
> > then when I switched to the tube amp I loved it...
>
> ie: "I like glowing tubes as they create a more interactive and
> pleasing image"(fair enough as well)



No actually rewriting another person's anecdote is pretty unfair. Why
do you do it? Are you not confident that the facts will support your
position?




>
> > and therefore, DBTs are no damn good for substantiating audible
difference."
>
> ie:"I don't want to admit that my decision was purely emotional
> as real men don't admit they have emotions about audio decor."



I am amazed at just how subjective so called objectivists are when it
comes to dealing with opposing POVs. you guys like to just make stuff
up. I guess it is easier than dealing with Jon's story as he actually
told it.





Scott Wheeler