View Full Version : Turntable advice
I am considering upgrading my old Technics
SL B200 turntable. I am looking at turntables
around $300-$400 and narrowed it down to
3 choices. It's not possible for me right
now to go to an audio store and check out
these turntables. So, I am relying on specs
and reviews at Web-sites and ng-s for making
my decision. I would greatly appreciate if
someone on this NG that has had experience with
these turntables could give me some advice as
to which of these might be a better choice.
Turntable is for home use only, typically about
10-12 hrs/week.
The 3 TT-s I am looking at are:
1) Goldring GR-1 ($399)
Pros: OEM Rega P2, Rega 250 tonearm w/ Goldring Elektra cartridge,
value.
Cons: a) Manual speed change by removing platter.
b) No user reviews. Only reviews are from seller sites that make
lavish praises.
2) Technics 1200 MK II ($419 + cost of cartridge)
Pros: Rave user reviews, additional features over GR-1 (e.g. pitch
control), speed change switch.
Cons: A friend said that you pay this TT's price for the sturdiness
needed
for DJ use and so, its not the best choice for home use.
3) Music Hall MMF 2.1 ($314)
Pros: about $100 cheaper than 1) and 2)
Cons: Users say that factory assembled Goldring Elan cartridge does
not sound good. Cartridge headshell is difficult to change.
Also, as I am unlikely to get another turntable
in the next 10-15 years, would it be better value to
add $100-$200 to my budget and go for turntables
such as Music Hall MMF 5, Rega P3, or, are the value
additions in these turntables (for the the moderate
10-12 hrs/week usage that I'm going to have) over
the three TT-s I mentioned minimal?
Thanks
-Raj
wrote:
> I am considering upgrading my old Technics
> SL B200 turntable. I am looking at turntables
> around $300-$400 and narrowed it down to
> 3 choices. It's not possible for me right
> now to go to an audio store and check out
> these turntables. So, I am relying on specs
> and reviews at Web-sites and ng-s for making
> my decision. I would greatly appreciate if
> someone on this NG that has had experience with
> these turntables could give me some advice as
> to which of these might be a better choice.
>
> Turntable is for home use only, typically about
> 10-12 hrs/week.
>
> The 3 TT-s I am looking at are:
>
> 1) Goldring GR-1 ($399)
> Pros: OEM Rega P2, Rega 250 tonearm w/ Goldring Elektra cartridge,
> value.
> Cons: a) Manual speed change by removing platter.
> b) No user reviews. Only reviews are from seller sites that make
> lavish praises.
>
> 2) Technics 1200 MK II ($419 + cost of cartridge)
> Pros: Rave user reviews, additional features over GR-1 (e.g. pitch
> control), speed change switch.
> Cons: A friend said that you pay this TT's price for the sturdiness
> needed
> for DJ use and so, its not the best choice for home use.
>
> 3) Music Hall MMF 2.1 ($314)
> Pros: about $100 cheaper than 1) and 2)
> Cons: Users say that factory assembled Goldring Elan cartridge does
> not sound good. Cartridge headshell is difficult to change.
>
> Also, as I am unlikely to get another turntable
> in the next 10-15 years, would it be better value to
> add $100-$200 to my budget and go for turntables
> such as Music Hall MMF 5, Rega P3, or, are the value
> additions in these turntables (for the the moderate
> 10-12 hrs/week usage that I'm going to have) over
> the three TT-s I mentioned minimal?
>
> Thanks
> -Raj
>
>
Get the SL-1200, it's a great product that will just keep on going and
going. And getting parts, if needed, shouldn't be a problem for many,
many years to come. All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing driven
drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
record is direct drive.)
There's even a guy who offers some after-market improvements, should
you get the urge to "tweak" it:
http://tinyurl.com/569k7
You might find a 1200 for under $400 if you look around. Good luck.
jeffc
April 7th 05, 01:05 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing driven
> drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
> record is direct drive.)
Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master record cost about a
million times more than your home turntable.
jeffc wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing driven
> > drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
> > record is direct drive.)
>
> Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master record cost
about a
> million times more than your home turntable.
>
>
Wow, a cutting lathe for only $400,000,000? Can I get two?
wrote:
> Get the SL-1200, it's a great product that will just keep on going
and
> going. And getting parts, if needed, shouldn't be a problem for many,
> many years to come. All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing
driven
> drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
> record is direct drive.)
> There's even a guy who offers some after-market improvements, should
> you get the urge to "tweak" it:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/569k7
>
> You might find a 1200 for under $400 if you look around. Good luck.
I'm not arguing your suggestion, as I am not exactly a turntable
expert, and happen to use a Technics SL1800mk2 myself (similsr to the
1200). But isn't the general consensus there are better sounding
turntables in this price range than the 1200? Although it is
admittedly built like a tank, and damn near bullet proof...
Jeff
wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Get the SL-1200, it's a great product that will just keep on going
> and
> > going. And getting parts, if needed, shouldn't be a problem for
many,
> > many years to come. All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing
> driven
> > drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
> > record is direct drive.)
> > There's even a guy who offers some after-market improvements,
should
> > you get the urge to "tweak" it:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/569k7
> >
> > You might find a 1200 for under $400 if you look around. Good luck.
>
> I'm not arguing your suggestion, as I am not exactly a turntable
> expert, and happen to use a Technics SL1800mk2 myself (similsr to the
> 1200). But isn't the general consensus there are better sounding
> turntables in this price range than the 1200?
>
>
Think about where that "consensus" comes from: "audiophile" magazines
(do you think Technics is going to buy advertising space to reach, at
best, a few thousand buyers? OTOH, Goldring, Rega, Music Hall, etc.,
will buy such space. And advertising space leads to positive reviews
which leads to "consenus".)and "audiophile" dealers ( due to very wide
distribution, there is little profit in selling a Technics SL1200.
OTOH, there is much more profit to the dealer in a Goldring, Rega,
Music Hall, etc.)
>
>
> Although it is
> admittedly built like a tank, and damn near bullet proof...
>
>
It is also very quiet (low "rumble"), has great speed accuracy (low wow
and flutter), is pretty well isolated in most cases and has a pretty
low mass tonearm with very low bearing friction.
wrote:
> Think about where that "consensus" comes from: "audiophile" magazines
> (do you think Technics is going to buy advertising space to reach, at
> best, a few thousand buyers? OTOH, Goldring, Rega, Music Hall, etc.,
> will buy such space. And advertising space leads to positive reviews
> which leads to "consenus".)and "audiophile" dealers ( due to very
wide
> distribution, there is little profit in selling a Technics SL1200.
> OTOH, there is much more profit to the dealer in a Goldring, Rega,
> Music Hall, etc.)
> >
> >
> > Although it is
> > admittedly built like a tank, and damn near bullet proof...
> >
> >
> It is also very quiet (low "rumble"), has great speed accuracy (low
wow
> and flutter), is pretty well isolated in most cases and has a pretty
> low mass tonearm with very low bearing friction.
Thanks for your reply!
Being neither an audiophile, nor a vinylphile, your statements make
sense to me. And having little turntable experience except for the few
I have owned makes me unqualified to argue against what you have said.
But I have seen discussions by others practically putting the 1200 in
the same class sound quality wise as Bose speakers, which many
audiophiles detest. And although I'm pleased with my Technics, I'm
surprised that no one has jumped down your throat for your
recommendation of the 1200, whether they would be right, or wrong.
This is, after all, rec.audio.opinion, which seems to accidently
stumble into a discussion about audio matters at least once in a while.
: )
Jeff
wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Think about where that "consensus" comes from: "audiophile"
magazines
> > (do you think Technics is going to buy advertising space to reach,
at
> > best, a few thousand buyers? OTOH, Goldring, Rega, Music Hall,
etc.,
> > will buy such space. And advertising space leads to positive
reviews
> > which leads to "consenus".)and "audiophile" dealers ( due to very
> wide
> > distribution, there is little profit in selling a Technics SL1200.
> > OTOH, there is much more profit to the dealer in a Goldring, Rega,
> > Music Hall, etc.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Although it is
> > > admittedly built like a tank, and damn near bullet proof...
> > >
> > >
> > It is also very quiet (low "rumble"), has great speed accuracy (low
> wow
> > and flutter), is pretty well isolated in most cases and has a
pretty
> > low mass tonearm with very low bearing friction.
>
> Thanks for your reply!
> Being neither an audiophile, nor a vinylphile, your statements make
> sense to me. And having little turntable experience except for the
few
> I have owned makes me unqualified to argue against what you have
said.
> But I have seen discussions by others practically putting the 1200 in
> the same class sound quality wise as Bose speakers, which many
> audiophiles detest. And although I'm pleased with my Technics, I'm
> surprised that no one has jumped down your throat for your
> recommendation of the 1200, whether they would be right, or wrong.
> This is, after all, rec.audio.opinion, which seems to accidently
> stumble into a discussion about audio matters at least once in a
while.
> : )
>
> Jeff
>
>
I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
jeffc
April 8th 05, 04:01 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> jeffc wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > All the anti-direct-drive talk is marketing driven
>> > drivel. (Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master
>> > record is direct drive.)
>>
>> Keep in mind that the cutting lathe that made the master record cost
> about a
>> million times more than your home turntable.
>>
>>
> Wow, a cutting lathe for only $400,000,000? Can I get two?
Yes, I will give you consecutive serial numbers for that price.
jeffc
April 8th 05, 04:12 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
> I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
> IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
> street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
> range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
> industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
Unless you're going to get a really good turntable, at this price range
you'll get more bang for the buck by getting a good cartridge, decent
tonearm, and then being very very picky about the setup. That has a whole
lot more to do with the sound than most people think.
jeffc wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>
> > I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
> > IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
> > street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
> > range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
> > industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
>
> Unless you're going to get a really good turntable, at this price
range
> you'll get more bang for the buck by getting a good cartridge, decent
> tonearm, and then being very very picky about the setup. That has a
whole
> lot more to do with the sound than most people think.
>
>
Agreed, but doesn't it make sense to begin with the best TT available
in the price range (in this case, $400), then add the "good cartridge"
and proper setup?
MINe 109
April 8th 05, 05:49 PM
In article om>,
wrote:
> jeffc wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >>
> > > I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
> > > IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
> > > street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
> > > range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
> > > industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
> >
> > Unless you're going to get a really good turntable, at this price
> range
> > you'll get more bang for the buck by getting a good cartridge, decent
>
> > tonearm, and then being very very picky about the setup. That has a
> whole
> > lot more to do with the sound than most people think.
> >
> >
> Agreed, but doesn't it make sense to begin with the best TT available
> in the price range (in this case, $400), then add the "good cartridge"
> and proper setup?
The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price and have
good arms.
Stephen
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
> > jeffc wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > > >>
> > > > I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price,
but,
> > > > IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's
$400
> > > > street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that
price
> > > > range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built,
cottage
> > > > industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
> > >
> > > Unless you're going to get a really good turntable, at this price
> > range
> > > you'll get more bang for the buck by getting a good cartridge,
decent
> >
> > > tonearm, and then being very very picky about the setup. That
has a
> > whole
> > > lot more to do with the sound than most people think.
> > >
> > >
> > Agreed, but doesn't it make sense to begin with the best TT
available
> > in the price range (in this case, $400), then add the "good
cartridge"
> > and proper setup?
>
> The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price and have
> good arms.
>
>
Rega P2:
>
_Base_: low-density fibre board laminated in generic plastic laminate
(helps increase sales of aftermarket isolation products!)
>
_Platter_: silver-painted high-density *fibre board* (good grief!!)
>
_Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape :-(
>
_Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that is
excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market if
real companies with real engineering departments and manufacturing
capabilities were still in the turntable business.
I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I can only
hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems similar to
the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to have a
decent platter.
BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass, good
geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very low
friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer down the
street, it is a very decent tonearm.
MINe 109
April 8th 05, 07:25 PM
In article om>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article om>,
> > wrote:
<$400 turntables>
> > The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price and have
> > good arms.
> Rega P2:
> _Base_: low-density fibre board laminated in generic plastic laminate
> (helps increase sales of aftermarket isolation products!)
It's got feet.
> _Platter_: silver-painted high-density *fibre board* (good grief!!)
Low resonance with that fibre board. Cheap, too.
> _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape :-(
And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that is
> excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
> everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market if
> real companies with real engineering departments and manufacturing
> capabilities were still in the turntable business.
If you want better built Regas, they cost more. Considering they
manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
they've found ways of keeping prices down.
And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded with
plastic 'tables.
And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed controller,
but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I can only
> hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems similar to
> the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to have a
> decent platter.
>
> BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass, good
> geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very low
> friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer down the
> street, it is a very decent tonearm.
I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about Technics. Indeed,
I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
These cost more than the Rega and Project.
Stephen
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > In article
om>,
> > > wrote:
>
> <$400 turntables>
>
> > > The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price and
have
> > > good arms.
>
> > Rega P2:
>
> > _Base_: low-density fibre board laminated in generic plastic
laminate
> > (helps increase sales of aftermarket isolation products!)
>
> It's got feet.
>
They don't do much!
>
> > _Platter_: silver-painted high-density *fibre board* (good grief!!)
>
> Low resonance with that fibre board. Cheap, too.
>
Cheap is the operative word. I wonder about how well-balanced it can
possibly be (leads to premature bearing wear) and how dimensionally
stable it is over time.
>
> > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape :-(
>
> And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
>
An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the 'table
a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell for
$300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
>
> > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that is
> > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
> > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market if
> > real companies with real engineering departments and manufacturing
> > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
>
> If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
>
Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective price
range.
>
> Considering they
> manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
> they've found ways of keeping prices down.
>
Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you have a
problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
>
> And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded with
> plastic 'tables.
>
What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a non-factor in
the market when turntables were a primary source component.
>
> And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed controller,
> but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
>
You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at prices
*starting* at $400.
>
> > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I can
only
> > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems
similar to
> > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to have a
> > decent platter.
> >
> > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass, good
> > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very low
> > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer down
the
> > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
>
> I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about Technics.
Indeed,
> I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
>
> http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
>
> These cost more than the Rega and Project.
>
>
The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge about
$135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably unnecessary)
"QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the value of
those offerings.
MINe 109
April 8th 05, 09:19 PM
In article . com>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article om>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > In article
> om>,
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > <$400 turntables>
> >
> > > > The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price and
> have
> > > > good arms.
> >
> > > Rega P2:
> >
> > > _Base_: low-density fibre board laminated in generic plastic
> laminate
> > > (helps increase sales of aftermarket isolation products!)
> >
> > It's got feet.
> >
> They don't do much!
> >
> > > _Platter_: silver-painted high-density *fibre board* (good grief!!)
> >
> > Low resonance with that fibre board. Cheap, too.
> >
> Cheap is the operative word. I wonder about how well-balanced it can
> possibly be (leads to premature bearing wear) and how dimensionally
> stable it is over time.
You'd best check to see if your speaker cabinet has fallen down, too.
> > > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape :-(
> >
> > And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> >
> An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the 'table
> a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell for
> $300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
Odd, many consider Rega arms to be bargains for the price. The answer to
your comment is 'economies of scale'. A large production run can go to
'a la carte' sales, OEM for other makers, and Rega 'tables.
> > > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that is
> > > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
> > > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market if
> > > real companies with real engineering departments and manufacturing
> > > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
> >
> > If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
> >
> Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective price
> range.
That doesn't keep them from sounding good, selling well, and garnering
warm reviews.
> > Considering they
> > manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
> > they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> >
> Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you have a
> problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
I have a Volvo 240. Better check that 1200 for de-contenting, too.
> > And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded with
> > plastic 'tables.
> >
> What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a non-factor in
> the market when turntables were a primary source component.
Compared to the mass electronics market, sure, but they survived and are
still around.
> > And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed controller,
>
> > but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> >
> You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
> accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at prices
> *starting* at $400.
That's the one. I'm told the problem has been rectified in the recent
past, or I wouldn't recommend Rega at all.
> > > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I can
> only
> > > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems
> similar to
> > > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to have a
> > > decent platter.
> > >
> > > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass, good
> > > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very low
> > > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer down
> the
> > > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
> >
> > I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about Technics.
> Indeed,
> > I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
> >
> > http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
> >
> > These cost more than the Rega and Project.
> >
> >
> The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge about
> $135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably unnecessary)
> "QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the value of
> those offerings.
That's the kind of service one would expect for free from a high-end
shop. Speaking of de-contented, the 1200 doesn't come with dustcover
hinges?
Stephen
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > In article
om>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > om>,
> > > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > <$400 turntables>
> > >
> > > > > The Project Xpression and the Rega P2 are near that in price
and
> > have
> > > > > good arms.
> > >
> > > > Rega P2:
> > >
> > > > _Base_: low-density fibre board laminated in generic plastic
> > laminate
> > > > (helps increase sales of aftermarket isolation products!)
> > >
> > > It's got feet.
> > >
> > They don't do much!
> > >
> > > > _Platter_: silver-painted high-density *fibre board* (good
grief!!)
> > >
> > > Low resonance with that fibre board. Cheap, too.
> > >
> > Cheap is the operative word. I wonder about how well-balanced it
can
> > possibly be (leads to premature bearing wear) and how dimensionally
> > stable it is over time.
>
> You'd best check to see if your speaker cabinet has fallen down, too.
>
>
Last I checked, "balance" was not an issue in loudspeaker cabinet
panels. And small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity are
much more an issue in a TT platter than in a speaker cabinet.
>
> > > > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape
:-(
> > >
> > > And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> > >
> > An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the
'table
> > a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell for
> > $300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
>
> Odd, many consider Rega arms to be bargains for the price.
>
>
Odd, indeed. Proof that reading $teropile rots the brain(?).
>
> The answer to
> your comment is 'economies of scale'. A large production run can go
to
> 'a la carte' sales, OEM for other makers, and Rega 'tables.
>
>
Rega is a cottage industry, Stephen. "Economies of scale" hardly apply.
If they did, Rega wouldn't be selling $400 tinker-toy turntables that
run off-speed.
>
>
> > > > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that
is
> > > > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
> > > > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market
if
> > > > real companies with real engineering departments and
manufacturing
> > > > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
> > >
> > > If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
> > >
> > Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective price
> > range.
>
> That doesn't keep them from sounding good, selling well, and
garnering
> warm reviews.
>
>
Warm reviews given in consideration of advertising revenue. No
advertising = no reviews.
>
>
> > > Considering they
> > > manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's
good
> > > they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> > >
> > Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you have
a
> > problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
>
> I have a Volvo 240.
>
IIRC, you made the "de-contenting" comment some time ago re: the Toyota
Camry. If my recollection is wrong, never mind....
>
>
Better check that 1200 for de-contenting, too.
>
>
It still seems to be the best value in it's ($400) price range.
>
>
> > > And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded
with
> > > plastic 'tables.
> > >
> > What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a non-factor
in
> > the market when turntables were a primary source component.
>
> Compared to the mass electronics market, sure, but they survived and
are
> still around.
>
>
They "survived' by catering to a small niche market abandoned by the
serious manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But Rega offers
over-priced, over-hyped, cheesy products. But they sure write great
promotional copy.
>
>
> > > And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed
controller,
> >
> > > but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> > >
> > You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
> > accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at
prices
> > *starting* at $400.
>
> That's the one. I'm told the problem has been rectified in the recent
> past, or I wouldn't recommend Rega at all.
>
>
"told" by whom?
>
>
> > > > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I
can
> > only
> > > > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems
> > similar to
> > > > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to
have a
> > > > decent platter.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass,
good
> > > > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very
low
> > > > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer
down
> > the
> > > > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
> > >
> > > I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about Technics.
> > Indeed,
> > > I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
> > >
> > > http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
> > >
> > > These cost more than the Rega and Project.
> > >
> > >
> > The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge
about
> > $135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably
unnecessary)
> > "QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the value
of
> > those offerings.
>
> That's the kind of service one would expect for free from a high-end
> shop.
>
>
And when the high-end shop is offering up cheesy product with poor
factory QC, a "QC check" is absoutely necessary. OTOH, I'd bet the
out-of-the-box defect rate on a Technics 1200 is <2%.
And, in this case, the consumer has a clear choice: a box-stock 1200
for around $400, or a "value-added" version for more money.
>
>
Speaking of de-contented, the 1200 doesn't come with dustcover
> hinges?
>
>
Using a dustcover during playback is a well-known no-no in audiophile
circles. Technics is just protecting the public. ;-)
Paul Dormer wrote:
> " emitted :
>
> >I'm not arguing your suggestion, as I am not exactly a turntable
> >expert, and happen to use a Technics SL1800mk2 myself (similsr to
the
> >1200). But isn't the general consensus there are better sounding
> >turntables in this price range than the 1200?
>
> I've owned Technics 1210 MkII and Project 2.1 (I think this is
branded
> Musical Hall in the states)... similarly priced decks. There was no
> contest really. The Technics won hands down in terms of construction
> materials, build quality and ease of use [I plan to buy another] but
> the Project had a more refined and natural sound quality. For
> listeners of classical or acoustic music I would not hesitate to
> recommend the Project, but the Technics is a killer deck for dance
and
> reggae...
>
>
What accounted for the difference in sound quality? What else was
different aside from the TTs? A different cartridge, perhaps?
Paul Dormer wrote:
> "MINe 109" emitted :
>
> >If you want better built Regas, they cost more. Considering they
> >manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
> >they've found ways of keeping prices down.
>
> Saw a relatively new Rega 3 in a local ads paper go for =A330.
>
>
Is that around US$60 at the current exchange rate?
George M. Middius
April 8th 05, 11:21 PM
Paul Dormer said:
> Saw a relatively new Rega 3 in a local ads paper go for £30.
Was the seller's address located in Michigan?
MINe 109
April 8th 05, 11:22 PM
In article . com>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > In article
> om>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > om>,
> > > > > > wrote:
<fibre-board platter>
> > You'd best check to see if your speaker cabinet has fallen down, too.
> >
> >
> Last I checked, "balance" was not an issue in loudspeaker cabinet
> panels. And small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity are
> much more an issue in a TT platter than in a speaker cabinet.
Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
You'd probably be happier with the other Rega models that have glass or
acrylic platters.
> > > > > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam tape
> :-(
> > > >
> > > > And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> > > >
> > > An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the
> 'table
> > > a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell for
> > > $300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
> >
> > Odd, many consider Rega arms to be bargains for the price.
> >
> >
> Odd, indeed. Proof that reading $teropile rots the brain(?).
No, it must be something else, or Rega wouldn't do so well OEM, possibly
economies of scale making designing one's own arm too expensive compared
to buying from Rega.
> > The answer to
> > your comment is 'economies of scale'. A large production run can go
> to
> > 'a la carte' sales, OEM for other makers, and Rega 'tables.
> >
> >
> Rega is a cottage industry, Stephen. "Economies of scale" hardly apply.
> If they did, Rega wouldn't be selling $400 tinker-toy turntables that
> run off-speed.
"Economies of scale" do indeed apply, even to cottage industries.
> > > > > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm that
> is
> > > > > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega dealers
> > > > > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the market
> if
> > > > > real companies with real engineering departments and
> manufacturing
> > > > > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
> > > >
> > > > If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
> > > >
> > > Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective price
> > > range.
> >
> > That doesn't keep them from sounding good, selling well, and
> garnering
> > warm reviews.
> >
> >
> Warm reviews given in consideration of advertising revenue. No
> advertising = no reviews.
Skipped "sounding good" and "selling well."
> > > > Considering they
> > > > manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's
> good
> > > > they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> > > >
> > > Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you have
> a
> > > problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
> >
> > I have a Volvo 240.
> >
> IIRC, you made the "de-contenting" comment some time ago re: the Toyota
> Camry. If my recollection is wrong, never mind....
I observed that the Camry is "de-contented". I didn't "have a problem"
with it as such.
> Better check that 1200 for de-contenting, too.
> >
> >
> It still seems to be the best value in it's ($400) price range.
My recommendations are above that range, so everyone's happy.
> > > > And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded
> with
> > > > plastic 'tables.
> > > >
> > > What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a non-factor
> in
> > > the market when turntables were a primary source component.
> >
> > Compared to the mass electronics market, sure, but they survived and
> are
> > still around.
> >
> >
> They "survived' by catering to a small niche market abandoned by the
> serious manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But Rega offers
> over-priced, over-hyped, cheesy products. But they sure write great
> promotional copy.
Somebody doesn't like Rega. One man's tape is another man's "latest in
adhesive pad technology commonly found in the automotive and aerospace
Industry."
> > > > And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed
> controller,
> > >
> > > > but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> > > >
> > > You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
> > > accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at
> prices
> > > *starting* at $400.
> >
> > That's the one. I'm told the problem has been rectified in the recent
> > past, or I wouldn't recommend Rega at all.
> >
> >
> "told" by whom?
The same dealer who didn't mention the 1200 tonearm. My old objection to
Regas in general was a sense of thinness and edginess that could have
been due to the speed problem.
> > > > > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression. I
> can
> > > only
> > > > > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base seems
> > > similar to
> > > > > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to
> have a
> > > > > decent platter.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent mass,
> good
> > > > > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and very
> low
> > > > > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer
> down
> > > the
> > > > > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
> > > >
> > > > I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about Technics.
> > > Indeed,
> > > > I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
> > > >
> > > > These cost more than the Rega and Project.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge
> about
> > > $135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably
> unnecessary)
> > > "QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the value
> of
> > > those offerings.
> >
> > That's the kind of service one would expect for free from a high-end
> > shop.
> >
> >
> And when the high-end shop is offering up cheesy product with poor
> factory QC, a "QC check" is absoutely necessary. OTOH, I'd bet the
> out-of-the-box defect rate on a Technics 1200 is <2%.
>
> And, in this case, the consumer has a clear choice: a box-stock 1200
> for around $400, or a "value-added" version for more money.
P2, P3, P5, P7, P9.
Speaking of clear choices:
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3.htm
> Speaking of de-contented, the 1200 doesn't come with dustcover
> > hinges?
> Using a dustcover during playback is a well-known no-no in audiophile
> circles. Technics is just protecting the public. ;-)
Gets in the way of scratching, too.
Stephen
MINe 109
April 8th 05, 11:40 PM
In article >,
Paul Dormer > wrote:
> "MINe 109" emitted :
>
> >If you want better built Regas, they cost more. Considering they
> >manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
> >they've found ways of keeping prices down.
>
> Saw a relatively new Rega 3 in a local ads paper go for £30.
Someone's rent was due!
Stephen
andy
April 8th 05, 11:43 PM
The biggest impact on the sound comes from the cartridge. This needs to
be matched to the tonearm in terms of mass and compliance. The acoustic
effects of tonearm and turntable are negative and simply need to be
minimised. Perversely, marketing often seems to reverse the order of
importance to: turntable, tonearm and cartridge.
Purchasing new in the UK I would recommend the Goldring GR2 package at
GBP 230.00 ($433.00) principally because it has a good cartridge and
decent arm. Take some care about how you place the turntable in your
room and it should serve you well.
If you want to keep within budget I would suggest simply buying a good
cartridge for the turntable and arm you currently possess. Unless they
are starting to wear out with mechanical problems this will be the most
cost effective way to get a significant increase in sound quality.
MINe 109
April 9th 05, 12:40 AM
In article >,
Paul Dormer > wrote:
> "MINe 109" emitted :
>
> >> >If you want better built Regas, they cost more. Considering they
> >> >manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market, it's good
> >> >they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> >>
> >> Saw a relatively new Rega 3 in a local ads paper go for £30.
> >
> >Someone's rent was due!
>
> Actually, not. The seller didn't realise there was still a thriving
> market for turntables. More typically they go for £80+.
He could have transplanted the arm to a Technics...
Stephen
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > In article
. com>,
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > om>,
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > om>,
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> <fibre-board platter>
>
> > > You'd best check to see if your speaker cabinet has fallen down,
too.
> > >
> > >
> > Last I checked, "balance" was not an issue in loudspeaker cabinet
> > panels. And small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity
are
> > much more an issue in a TT platter than in a speaker cabinet.
>
> Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
>
>
Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
>
> You'd probably be happier with the other Rega models that have glass
or
> acrylic platters.
>
>
And even happier with a TT made by a different company.
>
>
> > > > > > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam
tape
> > :-(
> > > > >
> > > > > And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> > > > >
> > > > An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the
> > 'table
> > > > a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell
for
> > > > $300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
> > >
> > > Odd, many consider Rega arms to be bargains for the price.
> > >
> > >
> > Odd, indeed. Proof that reading $teropile rots the brain(?).
>
> No, it must be something else, or Rega wouldn't do so well OEM,
possibly
> economies of scale making designing one's own arm too expensive
compared
> to buying from Rega.
>
>
That is indeed a possibility. Betcha that arm is pretty cheap to OEMs.
IMO, the retail price of the tonearm is inflated to make possible
claims such as "here is a $400 turntable with a $300 tonearm". Probably
works on the gullible.
>
>
> > > The answer to
> > > your comment is 'economies of scale'. A large production run can
go
> > to
> > > 'a la carte' sales, OEM for other makers, and Rega 'tables.
> > >
> > >
> > Rega is a cottage industry, Stephen. "Economies of scale" hardly
apply.
> > If they did, Rega wouldn't be selling $400 tinker-toy turntables
that
> > run off-speed.
>
> "Economies of scale" do indeed apply, even to cottage industries.
>
>
Pity, then, that they choose to make such cheesy products.
>
>
> > > > > > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm
that
> > is
> > > > > > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega
dealers
> > > > > > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the
market
> > if
> > > > > > real companies with real engineering departments and
> > manufacturing
> > > > > > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
> > > > >
> > > > Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective
price
> > > > range.
> > >
> > > That doesn't keep them from sounding good, selling well, and
> > garnering
> > > warm reviews.
> > >
> > >
> > Warm reviews given in consideration of advertising revenue. No
> > advertising = no reviews.
>
> Skipped "sounding good" and "selling well."
>
>
"Sounding good" is an opinion. Yours. I prefer TTs that run on speed.
"Selling well"? Is this the "MacDonald's argument"?
>
>
> > > > > Considering they
> > > > > manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market,
it's
> > good
> > > > > they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> > > > >
> > > > Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you
have
> > a
> > > > problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
> > >
> > > I have a Volvo 240.
> > >
> > IIRC, you made the "de-contenting" comment some time ago re: the
Toyota
> > Camry. If my recollection is wrong, never mind....
>
> I observed that the Camry is "de-contented". I didn't "have a
problem"
> with it as such.
>
> > Better check that 1200 for de-contenting, too.
> > >
> > >
> > It still seems to be the best value in it's ($400) price range.
>
> My recommendations are above that range, so everyone's happy.
>
> > > > > And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded
> > with
> > > > > plastic 'tables.
> > > > >
> > > > What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a
non-factor
> > in
> > > > the market when turntables were a primary source component.
> > >
> > > Compared to the mass electronics market, sure, but they survived
and
> > are
> > > still around.
> > >
> > >
> > They "survived' by catering to a small niche market abandoned by
the
> > serious manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But Rega
offers
> > over-priced, over-hyped, cheesy products. But they sure write great
> > promotional copy.
>
> Somebody doesn't like Rega.
>
>
You noticed!
>
>
> One man's tape is another man's "latest in
> adhesive pad technology commonly found in the automotive and
aerospace
> Industry."
>
And all can agree that hype and bull**** are just that. They could have
more honestly said: "adhesive pad technology commonly found in the
hardware aisle at Wal-Mart".
>
>
> > > > > And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed
> > controller,
> > > >
> > > > > but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> > > > >
> > > > You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
> > > > accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at
> > prices
> > > > *starting* at $400.
> > >
> > > That's the one. I'm told the problem has been rectified in the
recent
> > > past, or I wouldn't recommend Rega at all.
> > >
> > >
> > "told" by whom?
>
> The same dealer who didn't mention the 1200 tonearm. My old objection
to
> Regas in general was a sense of thinness and edginess that could have
> been due to the speed problem.
>
>
Nothing like an unbiased source!
>
>
> > > > > > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression.
I
> > can
> > > > only
> > > > > > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base
seems
> > > > similar to
> > > > > > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to
> > have a
> > > > > > decent platter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent
mass,
> > good
> > > > > > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and
very
> > low
> > > > > > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer
> > down
> > > > the
> > > > > > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
> > > > >
> > > > > I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about
Technics.
> > > > Indeed,
> > > > > I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > These cost more than the Rega and Project.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge
> > about
> > > > $135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably
> > unnecessary)
> > > > "QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the
value
> > of
> > > > those offerings.
> > >
> > > That's the kind of service one would expect for free from a
high-end
> > > shop.
> > >
> > >
> > And when the high-end shop is offering up cheesy product with poor
> > factory QC, a "QC check" is absoutely necessary. OTOH, I'd bet the
> > out-of-the-box defect rate on a Technics 1200 is <2%.
> >
> > And, in this case, the consumer has a clear choice: a box-stock
1200
> > for around $400, or a "value-added" version for more money.
>
> P2, P3, P5, P7, P9.
>
>
Yep, cheap cheese and it's more costly cousins.
>
>
> Speaking of clear choices:
>
> http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3.htm
>
> > Speaking of de-contented, the 1200 doesn't come with dustcover
> > > hinges?
>
> > Using a dustcover during playback is a well-known no-no in
audiophile
> > circles. Technics is just protecting the public. ;-)
>
> Gets in the way of scratching, too.
>
>
Do you have an itch?
MINe 109
April 9th 05, 02:36 AM
In article . com>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > In article
> . com>,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > om>,
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > om>,
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > <fibre-board platter>
> >
> > > > You'd best check to see if your speaker cabinet has fallen down,
> too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Last I checked, "balance" was not an issue in loudspeaker cabinet
> > > panels. And small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity
> are
> > > much more an issue in a TT platter than in a speaker cabinet.
> >
> > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> >
> >
> Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity."
> > You'd probably be happier with the other Rega models that have glass
> or
> > acrylic platters.
> >
> >
> And even happier with a TT made by a different company.
There's a good Technics still in production.
> > > > > > > _Motor_: generic motor held in place by double sided foam
> tape
> > > :-(
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And an arm that goes for $300 by itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > An overpriced tonearm (when sold individually) doesn't make the
> > > 'table
> > > > > a reasonable value. Face it, Stephen, if the arm needed to sell
> for
> > > > > $300, how could it be included on a $400 turntable??
> > > >
> > > > Odd, many consider Rega arms to be bargains for the price.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Odd, indeed. Proof that reading $teropile rots the brain(?).
> >
> > No, it must be something else, or Rega wouldn't do so well OEM,
> possibly
> > economies of scale making designing one's own arm too expensive
> compared
> > to buying from Rega.
> >
> >
> That is indeed a possibility. Betcha that arm is pretty cheap to OEMs.
> IMO, the retail price of the tonearm is inflated to make possible
> claims such as "here is a $400 turntable with a $300 tonearm". Probably
> works on the gullible.
No, the tonearm is remarkably cheap as a standalone product.
> > > > The answer to
> > > > your comment is 'economies of scale'. A large production run can
> go
> > > to
> > > > 'a la carte' sales, OEM for other makers, and Rega 'tables.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Rega is a cottage industry, Stephen. "Economies of scale" hardly
> apply.
> > > If they did, Rega wouldn't be selling $400 tinker-toy turntables
> that
> > > run off-speed.
> >
> > "Economies of scale" do indeed apply, even to cottage industries.
> >
> >
> Pity, then, that they choose to make such cheesy products.
That sound good. The cheesiness diminishes in the more expensive models.
> > > > > > > _Conclusion_: a Tinker-toy turntable with a decent tonearm
> that
> > > is
> > > > > > > excessively hyped by the "audiophile press" and Rega
> dealers
> > > > > > > everywhere. Products like this would be driven off the
> market
> > > if
> > > > > > > real companies with real engineering departments and
> > > manufacturing
> > > > > > > capabilities were still in the turntable business.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you want better built Regas, they cost more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Lots more. And they're *all* kinda cheesy in their respective
> price
> > > > > range.
> > > >
> > > > That doesn't keep them from sounding good, selling well, and
> > > garnering
> > > > warm reviews.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Warm reviews given in consideration of advertising revenue. No
> > > advertising = no reviews.
> >
> > Skipped "sounding good" and "selling well."
> >
> >
> "Sounding good" is an opinion. Yours. I prefer TTs that run on speed.
> "Selling well"? Is this the "MacDonald's argument"?
The new ones run on speed. If you argue they're no good because sales
were "insignificant," then I'm entitled to point out that sales are
significant enough for Rega.
> > > > > > Considering they
> > > > > > manufacture in the UK and export to a weak-dollar market,
> it's
> > > good
> > > > > > they've found ways of keeping prices down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Keeping prices down by "de-contenting" the product. Didn't you
> have
> > > a
> > > > > problem with this practice when it was used by car makers? :-)
> > > >
> > > > I have a Volvo 240.
> > > >
> > > IIRC, you made the "de-contenting" comment some time ago re: the
> Toyota
> > > Camry. If my recollection is wrong, never mind....
> >
> > I observed that the Camry is "de-contented". I didn't "have a
> problem"
> > with it as such.
> >
> > > Better check that 1200 for de-contenting, too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > It still seems to be the best value in it's ($400) price range.
> >
> > My recommendations are above that range, so everyone's happy.
> >
> > > > > > And they did okay back in the day when the market was flooded
> > > with
> > > > > > plastic 'tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > What time period are you talking about? IIRC, Rega was a
> non-factor
> > > in
> > > > > the market when turntables were a primary source component.
> > > >
> > > > Compared to the mass electronics market, sure, but they survived
> and
> > > are
> > > > still around.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > They "survived' by catering to a small niche market abandoned by
> the
> > > serious manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But Rega
> offers
> > > over-priced, over-hyped, cheesy products. But they sure write great
> > > promotional copy.
> >
> > Somebody doesn't like Rega.
> >
> >
> You noticed!
> >
> >
> > One man's tape is another man's "latest in
> > adhesive pad technology commonly found in the automotive and
> aerospace
> > Industry."
> >
> And all can agree that hype and bull**** are just that. They could have
> more honestly said: "adhesive pad technology commonly found in the
> hardware aisle at Wal-Mart".
Since it works for the job, keeps costs down and is ameliorated by a
genuine technological solution in the form of their new low-vibration
motor, your objection is aesthetic (and perfectly valid).
> > > > > > And they sound okay. I haven't heard the new add-on speed
> > > controller,
> > > > >
> > > > > > but that would eliminate the biggest criticism I've heard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > You mean the "criticism" that stock Regas have very poor speed
> > > > > accuracy? A turntable that runs off speed is a poor product at
> > > prices
> > > > > *starting* at $400.
> > > >
> > > > That's the one. I'm told the problem has been rectified in the
> recent
> > > > past, or I wouldn't recommend Rega at all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > "told" by whom?
> >
> > The same dealer who didn't mention the 1200 tonearm. My old objection
> to
> > Regas in general was a sense of thinness and edginess that could have
>
> > been due to the speed problem.
> >
> >
> Nothing like an unbiased source!
They have the advantage of hearing the product regularly.
> > > > > > > I've no first-hand experience with the Pro-ject Expression.
> I
> > > can
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > hope it is better than their earlier "stuff". The base
> seems
> > > > > similar to
> > > > > > > the Rega (cheap and easy to make), but at least it seems to
> > > have a
> > > > > > > decent platter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, Stephen, the tonearm on the the SL1200 has decent
> mass,
> > > good
> > > > > > > geometry (i.e., can be set-up for low tracking error) and
> very
> > > low
> > > > > > > friction bearings. Despite what you hear at the Rega dealer
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > street, it is a very decent tonearm.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I haven't spoken to the dealer down the street about
> Technics.
> > > > > Indeed,
> > > > > > I've read many endorsements of the 1200 on other forums.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?1200bld.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These cost more than the Rega and Project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > The "street price" on a 1200 is about $400. KAB seems to charge
> > > about
> > > > > $135 for dustcover hinges, a different mat and a (probably
> > > unnecessary)
> > > > > "QC check". The end user needs to make a determination of the
> value
> > > of
> > > > > those offerings.
> > > >
> > > > That's the kind of service one would expect for free from a
> high-end
> > > > shop.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > And when the high-end shop is offering up cheesy product with poor
> > > factory QC, a "QC check" is absoutely necessary. OTOH, I'd bet the
> > > out-of-the-box defect rate on a Technics 1200 is <2%.
> > >
> > > And, in this case, the consumer has a clear choice: a box-stock
> 1200
> > > for around $400, or a "value-added" version for more money.
> >
> > P2, P3, P5, P7, P9.
> >
> >
> Yep, cheap cheese and it's more costly cousins.
You pays your money...
> > Speaking of clear choices:
> >
> > http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3.htm
> >
> > > Speaking of de-contented, the 1200 doesn't come with dustcover
> > > > hinges?
> >
> > > Using a dustcover during playback is a well-known no-no in
> audiophile
> > > circles. Technics is just protecting the public. ;-)
> >
> > Gets in the way of scratching, too.
> >
> >
> Do you have an itch?
http://music.hyperreal.org/dj/sl1200.html
Paul Dormer wrote:
> " emitted :
>
> >I'm not arguing your suggestion, as I am not exactly a turntable
> >expert, and happen to use a Technics SL1800mk2 myself (similsr to
the
> >1200). But isn't the general consensus there are better sounding
> >turntables in this price range than the 1200?
>
> I've owned Technics 1210 MkII and Project 2.1 (I think this is
branded
> Musical Hall in the states)... similarly priced decks. There was no
> contest really. The Technics won hands down in terms of construction
> materials, build quality and ease of use [I plan to buy another] but
> the Project had a more refined and natural sound quality. For
> listeners of classical or acoustic music I would not hesitate to
> recommend the Project, but the Technics is a killer deck for dance
and
> reggae...
I had considered upgrading my turntable to a low price range ($500)
"audiophile" turntable years ago on other folks recommendations.
But I've always questioned the value of that when the type of music I
listen to is mostly 70s and 80s rock (another reason I can't be an
audiophile). I can see where a good 'table could make a difference in
regards to classical or acoustic music. But I somehow think it would
be a waste of time for my type of music listening. Your statements
would appear to validate my supposition. But I have one more question:
In my SL1800, I'm currently using an old Shure V15 TypeIV cartridge,
and have been very pleased with it. For 70s rock, would there be a
better choice?
Jeff
MINe 109 wrote:
>
>
<totally snipped!>
>
>
Stephen, we could go on and on.....but let's not.
Enjoy your Rega (you can always buy new motor mounts at Wal-mart, Home
Depot or Ace Hardware. ;-> )
ScottW
April 9th 05, 04:28 AM
MINe 109 wrote:
> > >
> > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > >
> > >
> > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
>
> Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
humidity."
Technically impossible.
ScottW
ScottW
April 9th 05, 04:32 AM
I see an LT-30 went for over $300 on E-Bay. Somebody wake up Trots and
tell him Mitsubishi is making a comeback :)
ScottW
jeffc
April 9th 05, 01:24 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Unless you're going to get a really good turntable, at this price
> range
>> you'll get more bang for the buck by getting a good cartridge, decent
>
>> tonearm, and then being very very picky about the setup. That has a
> whole
>> lot more to do with the sound than most people think.
>>
>>
> Agreed, but doesn't it make sense to begin with the best TT available
> in the price range (in this case, $400), then add the "good cartridge"
> and proper setup?
No I don't think so. The answer would only be yes if you took his premise
as set in stone - that he was going to buy a $400 turntable. My point is it
doesn't make any sense to set a budget for the turntable, cartridge and
(possibly) tonearm separately. It only makes sense to set a budget for the
whole shebang.
jeffc
April 9th 05, 01:27 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I had considered upgrading my turntable to a low price range ($500)
> "audiophile" turntable years ago on other folks recommendations.
> But I've always questioned the value of that when the type of music I
> listen to is mostly 70s and 80s rock (another reason I can't be an
> audiophile).
Well I see your point. While not disagreeing, I'd just point out that
- you can get your records for almost free, as compared to CD cost of those
same titles
- with a record cleaner, many used records can be gotten into great shape
- sometimes that original LP sounds better than a crappily-engineered CD
reissue of the title. Especially true, but not restricted to, CD titles
that came out in the 80s.
MINe 109
April 9th 05, 02:30 PM
In article om>,
"ScottW" > wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> >
> > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> humidity."
>
> Technically impossible.
Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
violins.
Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously off-balance
due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
Stephen
MINe 109
April 9th 05, 02:34 PM
In article . com>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> >
> >
> <totally snipped!>
> >
> >
> Stephen, we could go on and on.....but let's not.
>
> Enjoy your Rega (you can always buy new motor mounts at Wal-mart, Home
> Depot or Ace Hardware. ;-> )
I won't start up again by telling you what turntable I do have, but I
can probably get a motor for it the same places.
Stephen
George M. Middius
April 9th 05, 03:28 PM
MINe 109 said:
> > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > > humidity."
> > Technically impossible.
> Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
> violins.
You mean squishy frog extract and essence of lark's vomit? :-)
> Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously off-balance
> due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
Tests! We need lots of tests!
Sander deWaal
April 9th 05, 03:54 PM
George M. Middius > said:
>Tests! We need lots of tests!
Its like, youve definately seen, the light's, Muddis, Lot;"S!
Thank's Midduis for finally admittiong my origional ABX device, was
based on heavily audio, knowlege and a little faith Gorge!
;-)
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
George M. Middius
April 9th 05, 04:32 PM
Sander deWaal said:
> >Tests! We need lots of tests!
> Its like, youve definately seen, the light's, Muddis, Lot;"S!
> Thank's Midduis for finally admittiong my origional ABX device, was
> based on heavily audio, knowlege and a little faith Gorge!
I think you need a very hot shower.
> ;-)
Now I need a shower too, after reading this snotstorm of Krooglish-like
verbiage. I'm going to think twice about renewing your Krooglish license
next year.
Sander deWaal
April 9th 05, 04:44 PM
George M. Middius > said:
>Sander deWaal said:
>> >Tests! We need lots of tests!
>> Its like, youve definately seen, the light's, Muddis, Lot;"S!
>> Thank's Midduis for finally admittiong my origional ABX device, was
>> based on heavily audio, knowlege and a little faith Gorge!
>I think you need a very hot shower.
>> ;-)
>Now I need a shower too, after reading this snotstorm of Krooglish-like
>verbiage. I'm going to think twice about renewing your Krooglish license
>next year.
Baloney, Slick.
And learn to write.
Your reluctance to list your audio components is as much an indication
of your tweako-freako mumbo-jumbo lifestyle as your inability to
correctly devise a level-matched double blind listening test, pal.
Haw haw haw.
I'm off for a few days again losers, still a lot to do in the garden
tool shed.
Feel free to drool over my publications while I'm not here, but be
sure to do so publicly.
Harold Feckler.
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
wrote:
> I am considering upgrading my old Technics
> SL B200 turntable. I am looking at turntables
> around $300-$400 and narrowed it down to
> 3 choices. It's not possible for me right
> now to go to an audio store and check out
> these turntables. So, I am relying on specs
> and reviews at Web-sites and ng-s for making
> my decision. I would greatly appreciate if
> someone on this NG that has had experience with
> these turntables could give me some advice as
> to which of these might be a better choice.
>
> Turntable is for home use only, typically about
> 10-12 hrs/week.
>
> The 3 TT-s I am looking at are:
>
> 1) Goldring GR-1 ($399)
> Pros: OEM Rega P2, Rega 250 tonearm w/ Goldring Elektra cartridge,
> value.
> Cons: a) Manual speed change by removing platter.
> b) No user reviews. Only reviews are from seller sites that make
> lavish praises.
>
> 2) Technics 1200 MK II ($419 + cost of cartridge)
> Pros: Rave user reviews, additional features over GR-1 (e.g. pitch
> control), speed change switch.
> Cons: A friend said that you pay this TT's price for the sturdiness
> needed
> for DJ use and so, its not the best choice for home use.
>
> 3) Music Hall MMF 2.1 ($314)
> Pros: about $100 cheaper than 1) and 2)
> Cons: Users say that factory assembled Goldring Elan cartridge does
> not sound good. Cartridge headshell is difficult to change.
>
> Also, as I am unlikely to get another turntable
> in the next 10-15 years, would it be better value to
> add $100-$200 to my budget and go for turntables
> such as Music Hall MMF 5, Rega P3, or, are the value
> additions in these turntables (for the the moderate
> 10-12 hrs/week usage that I'm going to have) over
> the three TT-s I mentioned minimal?
>
> Thanks
> -Raj
The Music Hall MMF 2.1 will give you better sound than the Technics. I
have never heard the Goldring. The Music Hall MMF 5 will give you
better sound than the MMF 2.1. The differences are easily heard. The
value of those improvements are always personal.
Scott Wheeler
wrote:
> wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Think about where that "consensus" comes from: "audiophile"
> magazines
> > > (do you think Technics is going to buy advertising space to
reach,
> at
> > > best, a few thousand buyers? OTOH, Goldring, Rega, Music Hall,
> etc.,
> > > will buy such space. And advertising space leads to positive
> reviews
> > > which leads to "consenus".)and "audiophile" dealers ( due to very
> > wide
> > > distribution, there is little profit in selling a Technics
SL1200.
> > > OTOH, there is much more profit to the dealer in a Goldring,
Rega,
> > > Music Hall, etc.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Although it is
> > > > admittedly built like a tank, and damn near bullet proof...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > It is also very quiet (low "rumble"), has great speed accuracy
(low
> > wow
> > > and flutter), is pretty well isolated in most cases and has a
> pretty
> > > low mass tonearm with very low bearing friction.
> >
> > Thanks for your reply!
> > Being neither an audiophile, nor a vinylphile, your statements make
> > sense to me. And having little turntable experience except for the
> few
> > I have owned makes me unqualified to argue against what you have
> said.
> > But I have seen discussions by others practically putting the 1200
in
> > the same class sound quality wise as Bose speakers, which many
> > audiophiles detest. And although I'm pleased with my Technics, I'm
> > surprised that no one has jumped down your throat for your
> > recommendation of the 1200, whether they would be right, or wrong.
> > This is, after all, rec.audio.opinion, which seems to accidently
> > stumble into a discussion about audio matters at least once in a
> while.
> > : )
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
> IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
> street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
> range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
> industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
And they sound substantially better. So, unless they have a serious
issue with mexhanical failure the build difference really is a
non-issue but the sound difference is an issue.
Scott Wheeler
ScottW wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> >
> > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> humidity."
>
> Technically impossible.
>
> ScottW
Really? News to me.
Scott Wheeler
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article om>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > >
> > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > humidity."
> >
> > Technically impossible.
>
> Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
> violins.
>
> Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously
off-balance
> due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
>
>
Not to start this exchange again, Stephen, but the two issues are not
necessarily related. What I meant was that I wondered how well balanced
a 12" disk of HDF will be in practice. The dimensional changes with
temperature and humidity are a different issue.
>
Seems to me that HDF is a poor choice for a platter, unless the maker
is looking for a very cheap way out. I, for one, would rather have a TT
with a decent platter and an *optional* dustcover. YMMV.
wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
<snipped>
>
> > I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price, but,
> > IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's $400
> > street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that price
> > range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built, cottage
> > industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
>
> And they sound substantially better.
>
>
Classic OSAF!
>
> So, unless they have a serious
> issue with mexhanical failure the build difference really is a
> non-issue but the sound difference is an issue.
>
>
Only true if one believes the Tinker-toys actually *sound better*.
wrote:
> ScottW wrote:
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > >
> > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > humidity."
> >
> > Technically impossible.
> >
> > ScottW
>
> Really? News to me.
>
>
I suspect that many facts are news to you, Wheeler.
wrote:
> wrote:
> > ScottW wrote:
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > > >
> > > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > > humidity."
> > >
> > > Technically impossible.
> > >
> > > ScottW
> >
> > Really? News to me.
> >
> >
> I suspect that many facts are news to you, Wheeler.
Of course many facts are news to me. I suppose you think you know
everything. Everything except how to leave the nest and get a real
life. Maybe Scott was considering the bit about small dimensional
changes due to temperature. Yes of course that is impossible seal out,
but it is also irrelevent since it is not a unique property of fiber
board. Evey material has this problem. OTOH it is possible to seal out
humidity. That was the point of my comment.
Scott Wheeler
Ruud Broens
April 9th 05, 07:26 PM
"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: George M. Middius > said:
:
:
: >Sander deWaal said:
:
: >> >Tests! We need lots of tests!
:
: >> Its like, youve definately seen, the light's, Muddis, Lot;"S!
: >> Thank's Midduis for finally admittiong my origional ABX device, was
: >> based on heavily audio, knowlege and a little faith Gorge!
:
: >I think you need a very hot shower.
:
: >> ;-)
:
: >Now I need a shower too, after reading this snotstorm of Krooglish-like
: >verbiage. I'm going to think twice about renewing your Krooglish license
: >next year.
:
:
: Baloney, Slick.
: And learn to write.
:
:
: Your reluctance to list your audio components is as much an indication
: of your tweako-freako mumbo-jumbo lifestyle as your inability to
: correctly devise a level-matched double blind listening test, pal.
:
:
: Haw haw haw.
:
:
: I'm off for a few days again losers, still a lot to do in the garden
: tool shed.
: Feel free to drool over my publications while I'm not here, but be
: sure to do so publicly.
:
:
:
: Harold Feckler.
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
...Posting twice within an hour , young man ?
OK, i'm an old pensioner, nothing better to do, but you ? get a life Sander !
Heel Fijn;-)
Sander deWaal
April 9th 05, 07:41 PM
"Ruud Broens" > said:
>..Posting twice within an hour , young man ?
>OK, i'm an old pensioner, nothing better to do, but you ? get a life Sander !
Will you please stop hurting my feelings like that?
>Heel Fijn;-)
Who IS the new leader of China, anyway? ;-)
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
MINe 109
April 9th 05, 07:46 PM
In article om>,
wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article om>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > > >
> > > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > > humidity."
> > >
> > > Technically impossible.
> >
> > Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
> > violins.
> >
> > Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously
> off-balance
> > due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
> >
> >
> Not to start this exchange again, Stephen, but the two issues are not
> necessarily related. What I meant was that I wondered how well balanced
> a 12" disk of HDF will be in practice. The dimensional changes with
> temperature and humidity are a different issue.
The problems of an unbalanced platter would include audible wow or
premature bearing wear. I imagine humidity would have little effect on
painted HDF.
If balance isn't the problem, what is? VTA problems from swollen
platters? Rega famously doesn't worry much about VTA in general. Wear?
> Seems to me that HDF is a poor choice for a platter, unless the maker
> is looking for a very cheap way out. I, for one, would rather have a TT
> with a decent platter and an *optional* dustcover. YMMV.
Maybe HDF is good for supplying non-resonant mass. I agree that low
price is probably the biggest factor in Rega's choice and that there
must be reasons the higher-performing Rega 'tables have different
platters. Of course, marketing is one of them.
I guess optional dustcovers are the exception for inexpensive decks, so
chalk one up for Technics.
Of course, you could have the best of both worlds:
http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj-technics-arm.htm
If the OP is still out there:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1093010514&read&3&4&
A bit over the price range when you add on the cart, but I imagine
you'll not disagree with the description.
Stephen
wrote:
> wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> <snipped>
> >
>
> > > I'm not saying the 1200 is the best TT available at any price,
but,
> > > IMO, it is the best TT available *new* for anywhere near it's
$400
> > > street price. Frankly, the "audiophile" alternatives in that
price
> > > range (Rega, Pro-ject, Music Hall, etc.) are cheaply built,
cottage
> > > industry Tinker-toys surrounded by alot of market-driven hype.
> >
> > And they sound substantially better.
> >
> >
> Classic OSAF!
> >
> > So, unless they have a serious
> > issue with mexhanical failure the build difference really is a
> > non-issue but the sound difference is an issue.
> >
> >
> Only true if one believes the Tinker-toys actually *sound better*.
For you it may be about belief. For me it isn't a matter of belief but
a matter of experience. If the Technics table did sound better than the
Music Hall I would say so. It simply doesn't.
Scott Wheeler
Ruud Broens
April 9th 05, 07:58 PM
"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
: "Ruud Broens" > said:
:
: >..Posting twice within an hour , young man ?
: >OK, i'm an old pensioner, nothing better to do, but you ? get a life Sander !
:
:
: Will you please stop hurting my feelings like that?
:
:
: >Heel Fijn;-)
:
:
: Who IS the new leader of China, anyway? ;-)
:
: --
: Sander de Waal
: " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Why do you keep asking/telling ME ? ;-)
Rudy
wrote:
> I am considering upgrading my old Technics
> SL B200 turntable. I am looking at turntables
> around $300-$400 and narrowed it down to
> 3 choices. It's not possible for me right
> now to go to an audio store and check out
> these turntables. So, I am relying on specs
> and reviews at Web-sites and ng-s for making
> my decision. I would greatly appreciate if
> someone on this NG that has had experience with
> these turntables could give me some advice as
> to which of these might be a better choice.
>
> Turntable is for home use only, typically about
> 10-12 hrs/week.
>
> The 3 TT-s I am looking at are:
>
> 1) Goldring GR-1 ($399)
> Pros: OEM Rega P2, Rega 250 tonearm w/ Goldring Elektra cartridge,
> value.
> Cons: a) Manual speed change by removing platter.
> b) No user reviews. Only reviews are from seller sites that make
> lavish praises.
>
> 2) Technics 1200 MK II ($419 + cost of cartridge)
> Pros: Rave user reviews, additional features over GR-1 (e.g. pitch
> control), speed change switch.
> Cons: A friend said that you pay this TT's price for the sturdiness
> needed
> for DJ use and so, its not the best choice for home use.
>
> 3) Music Hall MMF 2.1 ($314)
> Pros: about $100 cheaper than 1) and 2)
> Cons: Users say that factory assembled Goldring Elan cartridge does
> not sound good. Cartridge headshell is difficult to change.
>
> Also, as I am unlikely to get another turntable
> in the next 10-15 years, would it be better value to
> add $100-$200 to my budget and go for turntables
> such as Music Hall MMF 5, Rega P3, or, are the value
> additions in these turntables (for the the moderate
> 10-12 hrs/week usage that I'm going to have) over
> the three TT-s I mentioned minimal?
>
> Thanks
> -Raj
Now if you are willing to spend a little extra on something
used....http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1118025135
This is a substantial step up in sound quality from the Music Halls or
the Regas.
Scott Wheeler
George M. Middius
April 10th 05, 12:28 PM
Paul Dormer said:
> I don't have enough experience with turntables to comment.
Admissions like that can get you thrown out of the Hive.
Margaret von B.
April 11th 05, 12:31 AM
I would also recommend the Denon DP-59L. A killer DD turntable for the
price.
MvB
"Paul Dormer" > wrote in message
...
> " emitted :
>[i]
>>I'm not arguing your suggestion, as I am not exactly a turntable
>>expert, and happen to use a Technics SL1800mk2 myself (similsr to the
>>1200). But isn't the general consensus there are better sounding
>>turntables in this price range than the 1200?
>
> I've owned Technics 1210 MkII and Project 2.1 (I think this is branded
> Musical Hall in the states)... similarly priced decks. There was no
> contest really. The Technics won hands down in terms of construction
> materials, build quality and ease of use but
> the Project had a more refined and natural sound quality. For
> listeners of classical or acoustic music I would not hesitate to
> recommend the Project, but the Technics is a killer deck for dance and
> reggae...
ScottW
April 11th 05, 07:13 AM
MINe 109 wrote:
> In article om>,
> "ScottW" > wrote:
>
> > MINe 109 wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > >
> > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > humidity."
> >
> > Technically impossible.
>
> Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
> violins.
>
> Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously
off-balance
> due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
>
> Stephen
No, not really. I was just pointing that containing the forces of
thermal expansion with a thin coating isn't going to happen. A humidity
barrier may work. Biggest problem I can think of would be dimensional
changes causing speed errors (pulley size variance). If the variance
didn't maintain a round shape then a bit of wow could be induced.
Non-homogeneous materials can expand and contract in some pretty
strange and unexpected modes.
ScottW
MINe 109
April 11th 05, 04:57 PM
In article . com>,
"ScottW" > wrote:
> MINe 109 wrote:
> > In article om>,
> > "ScottW" > wrote:
> >
> > > MINe 109 wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe there's a reason for that silver paint...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Other than to put a silk purse luster on a sow's ear?
> > > >
> > > > Or to seal out "small dimensional changes with temperature and
> > > humidity."
> > >
> > > Technically impossible.
> >
> > Maybe rega should varnish it with whatever Stradivarius used on his
> > violins.
> >
> > Do you think a solid fibre-board platter will go seriously
> off-balance
> > due to "small dimensional changes with temperature and humidity"?
> No, not really. I was just pointing that containing the forces of
> thermal expansion with a thin coating isn't going to happen. A humidity
> barrier may work.
I was referring to the humidity factor.
> Biggest problem I can think of would be dimensional
> changes causing speed errors (pulley size variance). If the variance
> didn't maintain a round shape then a bit of wow could be induced.
> Non-homogeneous materials can expand and contract in some pretty
> strange and unexpected modes.
Particle board is probably homogenous enough. Chances are if the platter
were round enough to start with and kept in a stable environment there
won't be a problem. OTOH, you won't see me swapping my metal platter for
MDF.
Stephen
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