14.4 vs. 12.5 VOLTS

[Flashovr29]

I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.

What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?

[Scott Gardner]

On 15 Mar 2005 17:41:20 -0800, (Flashovr29) wrote:

>I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
>wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.
>
>What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?


With the engine off, the battery voltage is about 12.5V. With the
engine running, the alternator output is higher, between 13.5 and 15V.
How much of a difference this makes depends on your amplifier. Some
are designed to produce virtually the same power regardless of input
voltage. Others are not regulated as tightly, and their output can
vary significantly as input voltage changes.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's anything to worry
about.


--
Scott Gardner

"It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it"

[Waldodamon]

This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
HC4002's, BOTH of them, were originally running at 13v. At 14.4v, each
amp is supposed to push 4000w at 1 ohm bridged. At 1 ohm bridged, I
tested the output of the amp and found it was pushing 3342 watts. Ok,
so now I take the regulator out of the scene and let my Ohio Generator
push a whopping 15v to each amp. Here's the big surprise to all you
electronics "wizards", each amp now pushes 4044 watts bridged at 1 ohm.
Now, maybe YOU can't hear the difference, but when I am pushing 6
subs, first at 3000, now at 4000 watts, I don't know maybe it's just
me, but I heard a difference. I heard a difference so much that I had
to raise the gain on my 4-channel to now keep up with the level coming
out of the 2 HC4002's. So long as the voltage is steady, and like you
guys mentioned about the drops, if there's a huge bass peak in the
song, yes, voltage will raise then drop off again, however when the
voltage is at 14.4 or 15v RMS if you will, it makes a big difference.


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[MOSFET]

"Scott Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> On 15 Mar 2005 17:41:20 -0800, (Flashovr29) wrote:
> In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's anything to worry
> about.
>
Actually, it's something I worry about a great deal!

I have a Rockford Punch 225.2 (450 watts x 1) as my sub amp and believe me,
it matters a great deal whether it is getting 12.5 or 14 volts. I have
taken great pains to assure my amps get every last tenth of a volt. Besides
the usual scheme of using heavy gauge wire to my amps, I also have added
heavy gauge ground wires to my battery and alternator. If this is not done,
I find the voltage differential between the grounds at the amp and the
grounds at the battery/alternator can be as much as two tenths of a volt.
Remember, voltage is a measure of an electrical difference. You can work on
both sides of the equation to maximize voltage, most people just focus on
the positive side.

MOSFET

[MZ]

> Actually, it's something I worry about a great deal!
>
> I have a Rockford Punch 225.2 (450 watts x 1) as my sub amp and believe me,
> it matters a great deal whether it is getting 12.5 or 14 volts. I have
> taken great pains to assure my amps get every last tenth of a volt. Besides
> the usual scheme of using heavy gauge wire to my amps, I also have added
> heavy gauge ground wires to my battery and alternator. If this is not done,
> I find the voltage differential between the grounds at the amp and the
> grounds at the battery/alternator can be as much as two tenths of a volt.
> Remember, voltage is a measure of an electrical difference. You can work on
> both sides of the equation to maximize voltage, most people just focus on
> the positive side.

While there may be a slight difference in sound between listening to the
audio system at a steady 12.5 vs. 14.5, the transient drop associated with
high current draws (either due to the cable's resistance, the alternator's
output impedance, or the amplifier's output impedance) isn't noticable by
ear. In other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to worry
about.

[Waldodamon]

just to add, I know someone mentioned I would make a repair tech happy
because running at higher voltages can damage the amp. Well, that
would be true if this was a run of the mill Fosgate amp Class AB with
regulated power supply, but it's not. These two HC4002 amps are HIGH
CURRENT. I am not saying they can take 17-18 volts and be cool, but
the recommended rating is 14-15 volts. This is where they can work
best. And yes, to another comment, I could not have tested the voltage
nor the wattage output without a meter :)


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[MOSFET]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
> ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to worry
> about.

Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling me that
and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)

MOSFET

[[email protected]]

MOSFET wrote:
> "MZ" > wrote in message
> ...
> n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
> > ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to
worry
> > about.
>
> Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling
me that
> and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)
>
> MOSFET

You're a ****ing faggot, dude!!! I really don't think that extra 2.5VDC
is going to give you, an extra 10dB, that would give you a perceivable
difference of volume. Please, do us all a favor and hang yourself from
the highest raffter, you can find, and kill yourself so you never have
to post a stupid response again.

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
ups.com...

>
> You're a ****ing faggot, dude!!! I really don't think that extra 2.5VDC
> is going to give you, an extra 10dB, that would give you a perceivable
> difference of volume. Please, do us all a favor and hang yourself from
> the highest raffter, you can find, and kill yourself so you never have
> to post a stupid response again.

Forget your meds today?

MOSFET

[[email protected]]

I'm sorry you haven't killed yourself yet.

[[email protected]]

Actually, I went to school, so I know better than to ask such a stupid
question!!!!


P.S. DIE!!!!!!!

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually, I went to school, so I know better than to ask such a stupid
> question!!!!
>
>
> P.S. DIE!!!!!!!
>
You and mmdir2002 should get together. You have soooo much in common.

MOSFET

PS: Not dead yet!

[[email protected]]

MOSFET wrote:
> "MZ" > wrote in message
> ...
> n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
> > ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to
worry
> > about.
>
> Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling
me that
> and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)
>
> MOSFET

MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts
or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
output audio
is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
changed
by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different
of
input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually, I went to school, so I know better than to ask such a stupid
> question!!!!
>
>
> P.S. DIE!!!!!!!
>
Oh Angry Flamer Guy (AFG), where are you? You haven't reponded to my last
message. This was just getting interesting.

MOSFET

Oh where oh where has my AFG gone....

[[email protected]]

MOSFET wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
> >
> > You're a ****ing faggot, dude!!! I really don't think that extra
2.5VDC
> > is going to give you, an extra 10dB, that would give you a
perceivable
> > difference of volume. Please, do us all a favor and hang yourself
from
> > the highest raffter, you can find, and kill yourself so you never
have
> > to post a stupid response again.
>
> Forget your meds today?
>
> MOSFET


did you say that extra 2.5V will give you extra push on Amp output???
Man MOSFET I have to honestly say that you are one stupid ignorant one.
Did you ever study electronic before? Do you know why extra 2.5V will
NOT
give an extra push on Amp output?

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
> There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts
> or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
> output audio
> is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
> changed
> by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different
> of
> input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
> You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.
>

That makes no sense whatsoever. You're an idiot. Stop posting.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> did you say that extra 2.5V will give you extra push on Amp output???
> Man MOSFET I have to honestly say that you are one stupid ignorant one.
> Did you ever study electronic before? Do you know why extra 2.5V will
> NOT
> give an extra push on Amp output?
>
How come when you want to you can actually make a little sense? That's
strange.

I can't believe I'm actually going to rationally answer mmdir2002, but here
goes...

With an unregulated amp, 2.5 volts WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE in output!!!
Noticable? Maybe, it depends. But, yes, it makes a difference. Again, you
are showing how little you know!

MOSFET

[[email protected]]

Why don't you try yourself on your amp if 2.5V difference will make
any differenct in your amp output?

[[email protected]]

Because i'm right and you are wrong. I just proved to you you don't
anything about electronic.

[[email protected]]

MOSFET wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Actually, I went to school, so I know better than to ask such a
stupid
> > question!!!!
> >
> >
> > P.S. DIE!!!!!!!
> >
> You and mmdir2002 should get together. You have soooo much in
common.
>
> MOSFET
>
> PS: Not dead yet!

Did you ever study electronic before? Why can't you answer that?
Do you think car stereo tech would know about electronic other than
pick out different stereo brand label?

[Waldodamon]

now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a
child have GOT to learn no to do. second, never put someone down that
you do not know, another childish tendency. i think you need to take
some mushrooms and dissolve that ego of yours bud, think it's about
time. if you want to get yourself kicked off the forum even as a
GUEST, which would be completely lame, go for it. if you don't like
what i have to say, or if you don't agree with it, then don't. i could
care less what a child has to say. children are stupid, they flip out
easily, which you are no doubt doing. i know what i have. i know what
i USED to hit, and i know what i hit now. if you can't follow a simple
formula, voltage=amperage x resistance, or voltage=wattage/amperage, or
even voltage=the square root of wattage x resistance, then obviously
you're a child who has not yet completed eigth grade physics....go take
a nap and calm down like a good girl and come back when you're ready to
talk like an adult


--
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[Daniel Snooks]

wrote:
> MOSFET wrote:
>> "MZ" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
>>> ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to
>>> worry about.
>>
>> Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling
>> me that and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)
>>
>> MOSFET
>
> MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
> There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC
> Volts or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and
> the output audio
> is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
> changed
> by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different
> of
> input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
> You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.

Just for fun ... let's notice that mmdir said 1.44V DC and 12.5V DC input
will produce relatively same output. So ... anyways, we all know that he
meant 14.4V DC (don't we? maybe??)
However, that statement really has absolutely zero to do with the next pearl
of wisdom ... "output current will not change with a small change of input
voltage" (I paraphrased a little for those who prefer a hint of proper
grammar) He bases this opinion on the well know fact that the input to an
amp is DC and the output from an amp is AC ?!? What the hell does this have
to do with anything?
In conclusion ... 14.4V is a 15% increase over 12.5V. As mentioned in
previous posts by people that actually know what they are talking about (eg.
MZ) this won't amount to a hill of beans IF THE AMP HAS A REGULATED POWER
SUPPLY. For those using old school stuff that doesn't have a decent
regulated PS ... that extra 15% will certainly give more headroom. (notice
there is no mention of an audible difference at normal listening levels)

sigh ... and I had promised myself I wouldn't respond to mmdir (ah well)


--
Dan Snooks

[MZ]

> Just for fun ... let's notice that mmdir said 1.44V DC and 12.5V DC input
> will produce relatively same output. So ... anyways, we all know that he
> meant 14.4V DC (don't we? maybe??)
> However, that statement really has absolutely zero to do with the next pearl
> of wisdom ... "output current will not change with a small change of input
> voltage" (I paraphrased a little for those who prefer a hint of proper
> grammar) He bases this opinion on the well know fact that the input to an
> amp is DC and the output from an amp is AC ?!? What the hell does this have
> to do with anything?
> In conclusion ... 14.4V is a 15% increase over 12.5V. As mentioned in
> previous posts by people that actually know what they are talking about (eg.
> MZ) this won't amount to a hill of beans IF THE AMP HAS A REGULATED POWER
> SUPPLY. For those using old school stuff that doesn't have a decent
> regulated PS ... that extra 15% will certainly give more headroom. (notice
> there is no mention of an audible difference at normal listening levels)

Actually, most amps today aren't tightly regulated. That's why it's
common to see two different ratings. If there's an increase in power of
15%, then that amounts to very little improvement. And, when we're
talking about voltage fluctuations while the stereo is playing with the
car on, the difference becomes inaudible (if it isn't already). Humans
simply can't perceive sub-1dB transients of that kind of duration.

[Waldodamon]

well, I sure did my share of tuning the place up as well. though some
people here acted in ways that I cannot understand, especially for
grown adults, I am assuming everyone here is to be considered an adult,
I too will apologize on behalf of stepping on toes by merely stating my
experience with this particular subject. I am hoping the person who
originally inquired about this has gotten something out of it more than
seeing how battles erupt. there really was equal resistance (no pun
intended) of opinion (for lack of better words considering no one with
"proof" from either side wanted to hear about the "proof" from either
side, therefore a "fact" was never proven and the whole conversation
has squabbled itself down to opinion bashing). so, I guess from this
point all the original questionee can do is experiment for his/her own
self and find out what their "proof", or "opinion", is. good luck!


--
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[Chad Wahls]

"Waldodamon" > wrote in message
news:1110984469.f092dacc204a43d47fd6e3e47e4d6587@t eranews...
>
> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> HC4002's, BOTH of them, were originally running at 13v. At 14.4v, each
> amp is supposed to push 4000w at 1 ohm bridged. At 1 ohm bridged, I
> tested the output of the amp and found it was pushing 3342 watts. Ok,
> so now I take the regulator out of the scene and let my Ohio Generator
> push a whopping 15v to each amp. Here's the big surprise to all you
> electronics "wizards", each amp now pushes 4044 watts bridged at 1 ohm.
> Now, maybe YOU can't hear the difference, but when I am pushing 6
> subs, first at 3000, now at 4000 watts, I don't know maybe it's just
> me, but I heard a difference. I heard a difference so much that I had
> to raise the gain on my 4-channel to now keep up with the level coming
> out of the 2 HC4002's. So long as the voltage is steady, and like you
> guys mentioned about the drops, if there's a huge bass peak in the
> song, yes, voltage will raise then drop off again, however when the
> voltage is at 14.4 or 15v RMS if you will, it makes a big difference.
>
>
> --
> Waldodamon
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Waldodamon's Profile:
> http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/member.php?userid=27319
> View this thread:
> http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=213518
> CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
>

Higher voltages will not add gain to an amp, it just increases rail voltage
to the finals and raises the clipping point. Sooooo. raising the gain on
your "4 channel" only proves correct when running the rig balls out.

The 1000 watt increase only accounts for 1dB or less of theoretical gain in
a perfect world. This is not factoring in power compression from heating the
VC with the first 3000 watts.

This in turn also jepordizes the SOA of the output transistor, you are gonna
make some repair tech really happy soon.

Chad

[MZ]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:

>
This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
>

How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
the laws of physics. Way to go.

[MOSFET]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
>
> >
> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> >
>
> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
> the laws of physics. Way to go.

Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of it.
I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
difference, right Mark.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Why don't you try yourself on your amp if 2.5V difference will make
> any differenct in your amp output?
>
Hey mmdir2002, before you post another stupid thing on this subject, try
RESEARCHING it a little. I have 15 years of test reports (in car audio
magazines) showing that there is for some amps a SIGNIFICANT increase in
wattage from 12.5 to 14.4 volts.

Go research the Accuvolt and see what Dr. Jacobs has to say on the subject.

You are an idiot, go away.

MOSFET

[Chad Wahls]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MZ" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
>>
>> >
>> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
>> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
>> >
>>
>> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
>> the laws of physics. Way to go.
>
> Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
> it.
> I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
> difference, right Mark.
>
> MOSFET
>
>

You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the added
stress to the amp?

It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the finals.
Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken measurements?

Chad

[MOSFET]

"Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> >> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> >> >
> >>
> >> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
> >> the laws of physics. Way to go.
> >
> > Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
> > it.
> > I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
> > difference, right Mark.
> >
> > MOSFET
> >
> >
>
> You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
> doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
> after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the
added
> stress to the amp?
>
> It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the
finals.
> Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken measurements?
>
> Chad
>
Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems
and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a new
(more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a
difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this
story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in
unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer.

Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with loosely
regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have
15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are they
lying?

Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if
you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all
I'm saying.

Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying
(what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Waldodamon" > wrote in message
> news:1110984469.f092dacc204a43d47fd6e3e47e4d6587@t eranews...
> >
> > This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> > correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> > HC4002's, BOTH of them, were originally running at 13v. At 14.4v, each
> > amp is supposed to push 4000w at 1 ohm bridged. At 1 ohm bridged, I
> > tested the output of the amp and found it was pushing 3342 watts. Ok,
> > so now I take the regulator out of the scene and let my Ohio Generator
> > push a whopping 15v to each amp. Here's the big surprise to all you
> > electronics "wizards", each amp now pushes 4044 watts bridged at 1 ohm.
> > Now, maybe YOU can't hear the difference, but when I am pushing 6
> > subs, first at 3000, now at 4000 watts, I don't know maybe it's just
> > me, but I heard a difference. I heard a difference so much that I had
> > to raise the gain on my 4-channel to now keep up with the level coming
> > out of the 2 HC4002's. So long as the voltage is steady, and like you
> > guys mentioned about the drops, if there's a huge bass peak in the
> > song, yes, voltage will raise then drop off again, however when the
> > voltage is at 14.4 or 15v RMS if you will, it makes a big difference.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Waldodamon
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Waldodamon's Profile:
> > http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/member.php?userid=27319
> > View this thread:
> > http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=213518
> > CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
> >
>
> Higher voltages will not add gain to an amp, it just increases rail
voltage
> to the finals and raises the clipping point. Sooooo. raising the gain on
> your "4 channel" only proves correct when running the rig balls out.
>
> The 1000 watt increase only accounts for 1dB or less of theoretical gain
in
> a perfect world. This is not factoring in power compression from heating
the
> VC with the first 3000 watts.
>
> This in turn also jepordizes the SOA of the output transistor, you are
gonna
> make some repair tech really happy soon.
>
> Chad
>
Chad, do you have any back copies of AS&S, CSR, CA&E? How do you explain
the changes in wattage when voltages are changed in test reports?

Also, my Fosgate amps give power specs at 12.5 and 14.4 volts. Why do they
do this if it doesn't matter?

Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge. It's
kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something
I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are arguing
as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps
produce more wattage with more voltage).

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
>
> >
> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> >
>
> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
> the laws of physics. Way to go.

Mark, instead of just saying something sarcastic to this guy who obviously
has some knowledge and good test equipment (those Ohio generators don't come
cheap), perhaps we could hear WHY he has rewritten the laws of physics.
Frankly, if you're not going to explain yourself, this hit-and-run kind of
posting basically amounts to a cheap shot and I would expect more from you.

MOSFET

[joe.ker]

Simple ohms law can clear it up
P=I*E (watts = Volts * Amps) if you increase the voltage or amps the watts
will increase also. This will only be true for nonregulated amps.
regulated amps will keep the voltage the same regardless of input voltage
(to a point). Weather you can hear a difference is a different story.
but I believe you can tell a difference.
I agree with Chad that running at higher voltage puts more stress on the
transistors. Low voltage is just as dangerous if not more so, as it can
cause the Amplifer to draw more Current to produce the desired output. Low
Voltage is usually what causes amps to overheat.

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo


"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet
is
> > >> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly
rewritten
> > >> the laws of physics. Way to go.
> > >
> > > Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell
of
> > > it.
> > > I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear
the
> > > difference, right Mark.
> > >
> > > MOSFET
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
> > doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
> > after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the
> added
> > stress to the amp?
> >
> > It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the
> finals.
> > Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken
measurements?
> >
> > Chad
> >
> Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems
> and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a
new
> (more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a
> difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this
> story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in
> unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer.
>
> Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with
loosely
> regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have
> 15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are
they
> lying?
>
> Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if
> you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all
> I'm saying.
>
> Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying
> (what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference.
>
> MOSFET
>
>

[MOSFET]

"joe.ker" > wrote in message
news:KFZZd.8255$oa6.1157@trnddc07...
> Simple ohms law can clear it up
> P=I*E (watts = Volts * Amps) if you increase the voltage or amps the
watts
> will increase also. This will only be true for nonregulated amps.
> regulated amps will keep the voltage the same regardless of input voltage
> (to a point). Weather you can hear a difference is a different story.
> but I believe you can tell a difference.
> I agree with Chad that running at higher voltage puts more stress on the
> transistors. Low voltage is just as dangerous if not more so, as it can
> cause the Amplifer to draw more Current to produce the desired output. Low
> Voltage is usually what causes amps to overheat.
>
Yes, perfect. Well said.

MOSFET

[Chad Wahls]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "MZ" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet
>> >> is
>> >> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly
>> >> rewritten
>> >> the laws of physics. Way to go.
>> >
>> > Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell
>> > of
>> > it.
>> > I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
>> > difference, right Mark.
>> >
>> > MOSFET
>> >
>> >
>>
>> You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
>> doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
>> after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the
> added
>> stress to the amp?
>>
>> It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the
> finals.
>> Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken
>> measurements?
>>
>> Chad
>>
> Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems
> and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a
> new
> (more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a
> difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this
> story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in
> unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer.
>
> Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with
> loosely
> regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have
> 15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are
> they
> lying?
>
> Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if
> you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all
> I'm saying.
>
> Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying
> (what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference.
>
> MOSFET
>
>

I hear ya, The point that I was making is that running an amplifier over
it's specified voltage is not likely to make a difference worth the risk,
The transformers will saturate etc.

But the difference you had from 11 some-odd volts to 14.4.... hell yeah :)

Chad

[Chad Wahls]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Waldodamon" > wrote in message
>> news:1110984469.f092dacc204a43d47fd6e3e47e4d6587@t eranews...
>> >
>> > This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
>> > correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
>> > HC4002's, BOTH of them, were originally running at 13v. At 14.4v, each
>> > amp is supposed to push 4000w at 1 ohm bridged. At 1 ohm bridged, I
>> > tested the output of the amp and found it was pushing 3342 watts. Ok,
>> > so now I take the regulator out of the scene and let my Ohio Generator
>> > push a whopping 15v to each amp. Here's the big surprise to all you
>> > electronics "wizards", each amp now pushes 4044 watts bridged at 1 ohm.
>> > Now, maybe YOU can't hear the difference, but when I am pushing 6
>> > subs, first at 3000, now at 4000 watts, I don't know maybe it's just
>> > me, but I heard a difference. I heard a difference so much that I had
>> > to raise the gain on my 4-channel to now keep up with the level coming
>> > out of the 2 HC4002's. So long as the voltage is steady, and like you
>> > guys mentioned about the drops, if there's a huge bass peak in the
>> > song, yes, voltage will raise then drop off again, however when the
>> > voltage is at 14.4 or 15v RMS if you will, it makes a big difference.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Waldodamon
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Waldodamon's Profile:
>> > http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/member.php?userid=27319
>> > View this thread:
>> > http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=213518
>> > CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
>> >
>>
>> Higher voltages will not add gain to an amp, it just increases rail
> voltage
>> to the finals and raises the clipping point. Sooooo. raising the gain on
>> your "4 channel" only proves correct when running the rig balls out.
>>
>> The 1000 watt increase only accounts for 1dB or less of theoretical gain
> in
>> a perfect world. This is not factoring in power compression from heating
> the
>> VC with the first 3000 watts.
>>
>> This in turn also jepordizes the SOA of the output transistor, you are
> gonna
>> make some repair tech really happy soon.
>>
>> Chad
>>
> Chad, do you have any back copies of AS&S, CSR, CA&E? How do you explain
> the changes in wattage when voltages are changed in test reports?
>
> Also, my Fosgate amps give power specs at 12.5 and 14.4 volts. Why do
> they
> do this if it doesn't matter?
>
> Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge.
> It's
> kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something
> I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are
> arguing
> as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps
> produce more wattage with more voltage).
>
> MOSFET
>
>

[Chad Wahls]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>

> Also, my Fosgate amps give power specs at 12.5 and 14.4 volts. Why do
> they
> do this if it doesn't matter?
>
> Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge.
> It's
> kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something
> I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are
> arguing
> as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps
> produce more wattage with more voltage).
>
> MOSFET
>
>

I can get ANY AMP to put out oodles of power.... How long does it haveta do
it for :)

Chad

[[email protected]]

Just curious how did you test the output?

[Chad Wahls]

"Waldodamon" > wrote in message
news:1110997664.fca609f51e53ac2313e84a8bbd3b61a4@t eranews...
>
> just to add, I know someone mentioned I would make a repair tech happy
> because running at higher voltages can damage the amp. Well, that
> would be true if this was a run of the mill Fosgate amp Class AB with
> regulated power supply, but it's not. These two HC4002 amps are HIGH
> CURRENT. I am not saying they can take 17-18 volts and be cool, but
> the recommended rating is 14-15 volts. This is where they can work
> best. And yes, to another comment, I could not have tested the voltage
> nor the wattage output without a meter :)
>

And a dummy load? If not, after heating what was the impedance (not
resistance) of the coils. Was this a true RMS signal or a peak reading with
a data hold meter? And the voltage I am referring to is rail voltage at the
output transistor. The ratio of this increase to the ratio of the input
voltage increase gives representation of power supply loss (transformer core
loss, etc)

Chad

[[email protected]]

Shut the **** up! You have never study electronic before. Your kind of
car stereo tech is not electronicn technician at all.
What do you know about inside of the amplifier? I asked you why 2.5V
different will not make any differenct.
You couldn't answer because you don't know. There is no car magazine
showing signficicant incrased in output AC.
You are making up from your ignorant take-no-prisoner dumb brain.

[[email protected]]

3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power.
Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
with your dollies.

[[email protected]]

Sir, you really aren't the poster child for the English language. And
your people think we assault the language....... Nothing personal, just
please use a spell check.

[Chad Wahls]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> 3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
> audible difference in power.
> Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
> be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
> Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
> And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
> with your dollies.
>

It has been readily documented that people can easily hear a 3 dB increase.
BUT note that I said HEAR wonder how that translates to tactile sensation?

Chad

[Bob]

Just to put in my two cents:

Power = Work / Time

Work = F * d * cos( @ )

Fc = m * v * v / r

Thus E = m * c * c

And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it!

[MZ]

> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> > Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
> > it.

Does he make money from it?

[MZ]

Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
suggesting that there's a drastic change in efficiency? Where is that
coming from? The vast majority of amplifiers aren't fully regulated.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, MOSFET wrote:

>
> "Chad Wahls" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> > >> correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
> > >> the laws of physics. Way to go.
> > >
> > > Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
> > > it.
> > > I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
> > > difference, right Mark.
> > >
> > > MOSFET
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
> > doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
> > after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the
> added
> > stress to the amp?
> >
> > It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the
> finals.
> > Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken measurements?
> >
> > Chad
> >
> Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems
> and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a new
> (more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a
> difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this
> story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in
> unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer.
>
> Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with loosely
> regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have
> 15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are they
> lying?
>
> Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if
> you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all
> I'm saying.
>
> Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying
> (what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference.
>
> MOSFET
>
>
>

[MZ]

> Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge. It's
> kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something
> I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are arguing
> as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps
> produce more wattage with more voltage).

Maximum output is not the same thing as gain.

[MZ]

> > This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
> > correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio
> > >
> >
> > How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
> > the laws of physics. Way to go.
>
> Mark, instead of just saying something sarcastic to this guy who obviously
> has some knowledge and good test equipment (those Ohio generators don't come
> cheap), perhaps we could hear WHY he has rewritten the laws of physics.
> Frankly, if you're not going to explain yourself, this hit-and-run kind of
> posting basically amounts to a cheap shot and I would expect more from you.

Chad summed it up already.

[MZ]

> > Simple ohms law can clear it up
> > P=I*E (watts = Volts * Amps) if you increase the voltage or amps the
> watts
> > will increase also. This will only be true for nonregulated amps.
> > regulated amps will keep the voltage the same regardless of input voltage
> > (to a point). Weather you can hear a difference is a different story.
> > but I believe you can tell a difference.
> > I agree with Chad that running at higher voltage puts more stress on the
> > transistors. Low voltage is just as dangerous if not more so, as it can
> > cause the Amplifer to draw more Current to produce the desired output. Low
> > Voltage is usually what causes amps to overheat.
> >
> Yes, perfect. Well said.

The gain of an amp is dependent mostly on the current source driving the
VA stage, and the gain of the VA stage itself. Neither of these things
are directly influenced by supply voltage.

[MZ]

> 3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
> audible difference in power.

Sorry, but this is highly dependent on the frequency. It can actually be
as little as about 3 dB for some frequencies.

> Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
> be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
> Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
> And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
> with your dollies.

No one knows who you are. 3 posts a year don't count.

[MZ]

>
now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a
child have GOT to learn no to do.


What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup.

[[email protected]]

I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.

[[email protected]]

Uhh, quit posting, here, through CAF. No one is going to be kicked off,
banned, hanged, drawn, and quartered, etc.......

[joe.ker]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> MOSFET wrote:
> > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
> > > ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to
> worry
> > > about.
> >
> > Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling
> me that
> > and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)
> >
> > MOSFET
>
> MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
> There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts
> or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
> output audio
> is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
> changed
> by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different
> of
> input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
> You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.
>

If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC voltage
and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to step up
the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about 64
volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on amp
(Chad may know that better than me)

[MOSFET]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
> >

Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

MOSFET

[joe.ker]

"MOSFET" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MZ" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
> > >
>
> Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
> mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
volume
> (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
> getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I
am
> getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?
>
> I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?
>
> MOSFET
>
>

The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be using
less current. and current is what produces heat

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo

[joe.ker]

"Flashovr29" > wrote in message
om...
> I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
> wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.
>
> What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?



Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ?


--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo

[MOSFET]

"joe.ker" > wrote in message
news:xA2_d.9254$Z07.5150@trnddc02...
>
>
>
>
>
> "MOSFET" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are
you
> > > >
> >
> > Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
> > mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
> volume
> > (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
> > getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when
I
> am
> > getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?
> >
> > I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?
> >
> > MOSFET
> >
> >
>
> The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
using
> less current. and current is what produces heat
>
> --
> The Clown Prince of Car Stereo
>
>

Yes, thank you.

[MOSFET]

"joe.ker" > wrote in message
news:NB2_d.9255$Z07.749@trnddc02...
>
>
>
>
>
> "Flashovr29" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
> > wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.
> >
> > What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?
>
>
>
> Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ?
>
>
> --
> The Clown Prince of Car Stereo
>
Well, who the hell knows? We have everybody fighting.

And then this guy, Tubehead1, comes out of the blue and apparently hates my
guts and wants me to die for GOD KNOWS WHY?

Now, mmdir2002, you may flame me and tell me to die. I have been so rude to
you that you have earned the right to flame me.

I think we all need to take a deep breath here and just chill. And
mmdir2002, if you truly are trying to help people then I am sorry for some
of things I have said to you.

MOSFET

[Scott Gardner]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:44:35 GMT, MZ > wrote:

>>
>now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a
>child have GOT to learn no to do.
>
>
>What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup.


A lot of people post here via CarAudioForum.com. It's a web-based
bulletin-board that serves as a front-end for rec.audio.car. That's
probably what he's talking about with "admin" and "kicked off".




--
Scott Gardner

"It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it"

[Chad Wahls]

joe.ker wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > MOSFET wrote:
> > > "MZ" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
> > > > ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing
to
> > worry
> > > > about.
> > >
> > > Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go
telling
> > me that
> > > and making me wonder if I have wasted my time! ;)
> > >
> > > MOSFET
> >
> > MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
> > There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC
Volts
> > or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
> > output audio
> > is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
> > changed
> > by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big
different
> > of
> > input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
> > You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.
> >
>
> If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC
voltage
> and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to
step up
> the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about
64
> volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on
amp
> (Chad may know that better than me)

Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
"float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular :) Or they must use an
output transformer.

Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
using google groups right now and hate it!

Chad

[MZ]

>I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.

You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

[MZ]

>> Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
>> >
>
> Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
> mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
> volume
> (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
> getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I
> am
> getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?
>
> I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

Obviously wrong, perhaps. :)

I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is proportional
to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of heat
as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your
confusion comes from.

Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the efficiency
of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most
unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked, tends
to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption.

[MZ]

> The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
> using
> less current. and current is what produces heat

Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro to
physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on
the cover. Schrodinger, illustrated.

Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors would
heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being
superconductors. :)

[MZ]

> Just to put in my two cents:
>
> Power = Work / Time
>
> Work = F * d * cos( @ )
>
> Fc = m * v * v / r
>
> Thus E = m * c * c
>
> And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it!
>

Hey, Bob, you're on the right track, man. Heat :: Energy. Power = time
rate of energy. Current = charged particles (electrons, ions, etc) flowing
per second (Coul/sec).

Anyway, if we're interested in temperature, which I think we are (how did we
get on this topic again?), then we're interested in the amount of heat
produced and the ability of the object to dissipate the heat. Current can,
of course, produce heat, but it's only through electrical power
dissipation - i * r.

[MZ]

> Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
> bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
> "float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
> Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular :) Or they must use an
> output transformer.
>
> Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
> derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
> are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
> bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
> current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
> they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
> inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
> impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
> automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
> transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
> just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
> that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
> using google groups right now and hate it!

Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart
OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software that
I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server.

So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top
notch.

[MZ]

> well, I sure did my share of tuning the place up as well. though some
> people here acted in ways that I cannot understand, especially for
> grown adults, I am assuming everyone here is to be considered an adult,
> I too will apologize on behalf of stepping on toes by merely stating my
> experience with this particular subject. I am hoping the person who
> originally inquired about this has gotten something out of it more than
> seeing how battles erupt. there really was equal resistance (no pun
> intended) of opinion (for lack of better words considering no one with
> "proof" from either side wanted to hear about the "proof" from either
> side, therefore a "fact" was never proven and the whole conversation
> has squabbled itself down to opinion bashing). so, I guess from this
> point all the original questionee can do is experiment for his/her own
> self and find out what their "proof", or "opinion", is. good luck!

Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. :) Is there such a thing as
"facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with enough
evidence to say that something else is a fact.

[FasDeth]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> You are making up from your ignorant take-no-prisoner dumb brain.

Thats a new one... Hey. At least his spelling is getting better.

[FasDeth]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...

> "proof", or "opinion",
> Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. :) Is there such a thing as
> "facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with
> enough evidence to say that something else is a fact.
Fact. My amps are rated differently at 12/14v. But personally (ie(Opinion)),
I can't tell the difference.But then again I don't really use the stereo at
any real volume longer than five minutes or so unless the car is running .

[Daniel Snooks]

MZ wrote:
>> I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.
>
> You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

ROFLMFAO ... shots at the Liz ... it's been too long :-)

--
Dan Snooks

[Chad Wahls]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
>> Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
>> bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
>> "float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
>> Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular :) Or they must use an
>> output transformer.
>>
>> Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
>> derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
>> are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
>> bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
>> current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
>> they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
>> inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
>> impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
>> automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
>> transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
>> just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
>> that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
>> using google groups right now and hate it!
>
> Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart
> OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software
> that I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server.
>
> So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top
> notch.
>

PINE!!! Woo Hoo! Been a long time since I've used that!

I use the university news server from where I work, we actually did away
with our discreet one but share with another university. When I'm at home I
use google because I have been too laxt to set up the server on the home PC.
I will check out giganews as this one does not support binary groups and
many I know post schematics that I want to check out....

Thanks for the heads up!

Chad

[joe.ker]

Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed.
are not superconductors supercooled?

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo


"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> > The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
> > using
> > less current. and current is what produces heat
>
> Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro
to
> physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on
> the cover. , illustrated.
>
> Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors
would
> heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being
> superconductors. :)
>
>

[MOSFET]

"MZ" > wrote in message
...
> >> Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are
you
> >> >
> >
> > Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
> > mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
> > volume
> > (wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
> > getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when
I
> > am
> > getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?
> >
> > I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?
>
> Obviously wrong, perhaps. :)
>
> I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is
proportional
> to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of
heat
> as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your
> confusion comes from.
>
> Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the
efficiency
> of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most
> unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked,
tends
> to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption.
>
Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of it
all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).

And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the
same heat would be generated no matter what.
But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only
getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several
times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4
volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on.

MOSFET

[[email protected]]

>You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

HAHAHAHA, nope. I still drop by from time to time, but usually don't
post because there are many bright people here, now. It's like first
come, first serve you know. No sense in being the 5th person to answer
a question with the same answer. I just turned 30 last week, so now I
am officially a "Grumpy Old Man"!!! :D

[[email protected]]

>(I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).

AHHHH, so that's your problem. I'm sorry for everything negative that I
said to you before. I mean, it's obvious, you can't help
it................

[MZ]

> Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
> poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed.
> are not superconductors supercooled?

Of course. But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
resistance (ie. power = i*r). It's hard enough as it is to, say, run the
magnet in an MRI facility. It would take a whole building just to cool it
if the laws of physics didn't dictate that heat is a product of power.

[MZ]

> Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of
> it
> all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).
>
> And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the
> same heat would be generated no matter what.
> But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only
> getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several
> times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4
> volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on.

11 volts might explain it. When you're close to the limits of operation,
things can be funky.

[[email protected]]

> But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
>was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
>resistance (ie. power = i*r).

M,

Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R? ;)

[MZ]

> > But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
> >was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
> >resistance (ie. power = i*r).
>
> M,
>
> Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R? ;)

Yep. Thanks.