Hi-MD: the perfect car stereo format?

[J. Tyler]

To increase capacity without changing discs, I was thinking of
replacing my MD deck with a MP3/WMA car CD player (or adding a MP3/WMA
CD changer)...until I saw this:

http://www.sony.net/Products/Hi-MD/

* 1GB discs hold almost 8 hours of music with ATRAC3plus @256kbps (HQ)
* Small size and easily handling vs. awkward CD juggling on the road
* Easily rewritable (a million times like the old MDs?)
* Dust-jacket protection (critical in a car, I think)
* Better physical shock resistance than larger CDs with greater flex
* Allows for uncompressed PCM audio if desired, and more of it than a
CD-R
* Drag & drop music transfer on a PC (can also be used for generic
storage)

I hope they make some car decks or changers soon. The CD-R format will
surely remain cheaper, but money isn't everything. Look how much we
spend on amps and speakers. I want something in a car that can be
handled quickly, stores in a small space, resists physical damage and
allows hours of playback without fumbling for another disc. I don't
care if it never gets popular among people who are stuck on other
formats, just bring it on and give it a reasonable price!

JT

[Chuck]

Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?

tx

[EFFENDI]

Chuck wrote:
> Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
>
> tx
>
>

yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums. im still happy with my Creative Labs Zen
NX...it is cheaper compared to CD-R and MD in the long run. If I were to
burn 20GB of MP3 onto CDs I would have a hell of a time trying shuffle
through all of them trying to play them all through a CD player. I still
think nothing beats the aux-in route and ipod or other portable media
player. you have music wherever you go. isnt that what it is all about??

EFFENDI

[Oogle B.]

EFFENDI > wrote in message >...
> Chuck wrote:
> > Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
> >
> > tx
> >
> >
>
> yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
> awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
> 1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums. im still happy with my Creative Labs Zen
> NX...it is cheaper compared to CD-R and MD in the long run. If I were to
> burn 20GB of MP3 onto CDs I would have a hell of a time trying shuffle
> through all of them trying to play them all through a CD player. I still
> think nothing beats the aux-in route and ipod or other portable media
> player. you have music wherever you go. isnt that what it is all about??
>
> EFFENDI

Why are there many formats available now ? It is not that one format
is better than the other (some formats maybe better but normal ears
can't hear them) but because THEY HAVE DIFEERENT USES OR THE USERS
HAVE Different requirements. The best media for you is the one that
is most suitable for your use.

I record in many places and I do not want to risk losing my 8000+
songs collection on a HD media like Ipod in case i drop the thing. So
I bought two MD's : a Sony to record and a Sharp to play.

But I would still want to buy someday an HD device like Ipod for less
vigorous applications and once they solved some technical issues like
battery life and others.

My two cents.

oogle B.

[Chuck]

I dont like the idea of compressing an already compress file. This is kind
of stupid. What the hell Sony was thinking ?

So I guess Ill need 2 copy of the same song on my hard drive because Hi-MD
doesnt support .mp3 !

Really I dont understand this one. If all the players available on the
market only the Mini Disc has this feature !

Ill gor for a Nomad Zen NX xtr.

And btw, the Nomad will be the backup of what I have on my hard drive. So
who care if I drop the Nomad or if I have a hd crash.

Chuck

[J. Tyler]

"Chuck" > wrote in message >...

> I dont like the idea of compressing an already compress file. This is kind
> of stupid. What the hell Sony was thinking ?

I've been dubbing MP3s digitally in real time to MD for years and the
sound quality doesn't seem to deteriorate any more than it does from
CD to MD (which is basically nil). The degree of 2nd generation loss
in such digital copies seems to be more theoretical than real. ATRAC
has always sounded very transparent to me. Cleaner than even a 320k
MP3.

> So I guess Ill need 2 copy of the same song on my hard drive because Hi-MD
> doesnt support .mp3 !

Some people think Hi-MD may be hackable to play MP3s directly, but MP3
itself is a dated, relatively inefficient compression format and I
won't miss it.

JT

[J. Tyler]

EFFENDI > wrote in message >...

> Chuck wrote:
> > Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
> >
> > tx
> >
> >
>
> yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
> awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
> 1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums.

Only a couple? I'd check your math.

A 1GB Hi-MD (7h55m) will allow for 8 to 12 typical albums in
ATRAC3plus 256kbps mode, which should be cleaner sounding than even
the best MP3s. I assume it will be gapless too; another shortcoming of
MP3. I also assume it will allow after-the-fact editing of tracks and
all the other gizmos that make MD stand out. The handling ease and
toughness of the discs can't be ignored either.

JT

[EFFENDI]

J. Tyler wrote:
> EFFENDI > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
>>>
>>>tx
>>>
>>>
>>
>>yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
>>awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
>>1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums.
>
>
> Only a couple? I'd check your math.
>
> A 1GB Hi-MD (7h55m) will allow for 8 to 12 typical albums in
> ATRAC3plus 256kbps mode, which should be cleaner sounding than even
> the best MP3s. I assume it will be gapless too; another shortcoming of
> MP3. I also assume it will allow after-the-fact editing of tracks and
> all the other gizmos that make MD stand out. The handling ease and
> toughness of the discs can't be ignored either.
>
> JT

JT:

I was talking about MP3 format in terms of its filesize, not ATRAC3. 1GB
= A few 192kbps MP3 albums (an album is roughyl 100MB) 10 albums per 1GB
on a 20-30GB hard-drive based MP3 player is an awful lot more portable
than carrying 20 HI-MD discs that are undoubtedly going to be very
pricey at introduction, not to mention the player cost itself as well as
expensive optical cables required (which requires expensive
optical-compatible audio gear) to connect. If you already have all of
that then cool. Personally, I have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant
say which sounds better. Please provide me with resources on comparisons
of the formats. I find that sound quality is HIGHLY subjective from
user-to-user. And please expand on what 'gizmos' you are talking about.
My Nomad Zen NX allows for time-shifting playback, reverb adjustment,
spatialization, graphical EQ, sorting of artist, album, or genre...the
list goes on. As far as toughness, well a solid state MP3 player or even
a hard-drive based player is more solid of a format than MD. And it is
equally portable and more compatible. Oh yes and much much cheaper on a
quantity of music storage basis. All I'm saying, MP3 works for me. Im
not bashing any format or saying anything is better than the other. In
fact I think that Hi-MD is step in the right direction, for those that
use/prefer the MD format. I totally agree with Oogle B.s post that media
format choice is dependant upon the users needs and requirements. So
check the math on that......

EFFENDI

[Steve Grauman]

>Personally, I have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant
>say which sounds better. Please provide me with resources on comparisons

http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/lab/index.html

These are lab tests conducted in Germany and England. The test
parameters/conditions are listed along with the results. I've always found
ATRAC3 to be fairly good, and usually preferable to MP3. With the advent of AAC
and FLAC (WMA Lossless never caught on to a great degree it seems, nor did MP3
PRO), which are lossless, it may be showing it's age a bit though. However,
Apple's iPod is the only portable I know of supporting AAC and none that I've
seen have FLAC support. ATRAC+ should be quite good, but I havn't done a test
yet myself. I bought my MD player/recorder when portable MP3 players had much
less storage and cost much more as per the price:memory ratio (like when
Diamond's 128Mb Rio was selling for $300 and larger ones were closer to $500).
I've been very happy, albeit the media is somewhat expensive, and I suppose
I've probably spent on media the difference between what my player cost and
what a larger MP3 unit would've cost me. The upside is that again, I've found
the ATRAC recordings on my MD's to be generally superior to MP3s and the newer
lossless formats are sparsly compatible.

>I find that sound quality is HIGHLY subjective from
>user-to-user.

This is largly true when comparing speakers, but when static test parameters
are presented in regards to the equipment and listening environment, many/most
people can tell the difference between MP3s and ATRACs, at least based on my
own sampling and the test results presented in the above link. ATRAC is
near-lossless and would've developed a lot more of MD had caught on and allowed
equipment/media prices to drop. I remember listening to a studio-published copy
of Pink Floyd's "The Division Bell" on MD and being blown away. My personal
unit has been used mainly to replay my CD collection, which I've transfered
(for the most part) to MD. I'll also add that there is a great deal of sonic
difference between the CD to MD recordings I made using my portable recorder
(usually connected via optical to a Sony D-EJ01 discman) and CD to MD transfers
made using a Sony 333ES home-MD component. I've been told that Denon's now-dead
MD100 home component was quite good as well. Sony's current offering in the
U.S. (they're now down to one model here) isn't nearly as good, it doesn't have
the Type-R circuit or the 20-Bit DAC.

[Bill L]

"EFFENDI" > wrote in message
...
> J. Tyler wrote:
>> EFFENDI > wrote in message
>> >...
>>
>>
>>>Chuck wrote:
>>>
>>>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
>>>>
>>>>tx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
>>>awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
>>>1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums.
>>
>>
>> Only a couple? I'd check your math.
>>
>> A 1GB Hi-MD (7h55m) will allow for 8 to 12 typical albums in
>> ATRAC3plus 256kbps mode, which should be cleaner sounding than even
>> the best MP3s. I assume it will be gapless too; another shortcoming of
>> MP3. I also assume it will allow after-the-fact editing of tracks and
>> all the other gizmos that make MD stand out. The handling ease and
>> toughness of the discs can't be ignored either.
>>
>> JT
>
> JT:
>
> I was talking about MP3 format in terms of its filesize, not ATRAC3. 1GB =
> A few 192kbps MP3 albums (an album is roughyl 100MB) 10 albums per 1GB on
> a 20-30GB hard-drive based MP3 player is an awful lot more portable than
> carrying 20 HI-MD discs that are undoubtedly going to be very pricey at
> introduction, not to mention the player cost itself as well as expensive
> optical cables required (which requires expensive optical-compatible audio
> gear) to connect. If you already have all of that then cool. Personally, I
> have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant say which sounds better. Please
> provide me with resources on comparisons of the formats. I find that sound
> quality is HIGHLY subjective from user-to-user. And please expand on what
> 'gizmos' you are talking about. My Nomad Zen NX allows for time-shifting
> playback, reverb adjustment, spatialization, graphical EQ, sorting of
> artist, album, or genre...the list goes on. As far as toughness, well a
> solid state MP3 player or even a hard-drive based player is more solid of
> a format than MD. And it is equally portable and more compatible. Oh yes
> and much much cheaper on a quantity of music storage basis. All I'm
> saying, MP3 works for me. Im not bashing any format or saying anything is
> better than the other. In fact I think that Hi-MD is step in the right
> direction, for those that use/prefer the MD format. I totally agree with
> Oogle B.s post that media format choice is dependant upon the users needs
> and requirements. So check the math on that......
>
> EFFENDI

Got to disagree that a HDD based player is "more solid" than MD I've dropped
my Sony MZ-R700 several times (onto hard surfaces) and it's survived. Could
you really drop an iPod several times and it still play?

BillL

[EFFENDI]

Bill L wrote:
> "EFFENDI" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>J. Tyler wrote:
>>
>>>EFFENDI > wrote in message
>...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Chuck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ?
>>>>>
>>>>>tx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an
>>>>awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks.
>>>>1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums.
>>>
>>>
>>>Only a couple? I'd check your math.
>>>
>>>A 1GB Hi-MD (7h55m) will allow for 8 to 12 typical albums in
>>>ATRAC3plus 256kbps mode, which should be cleaner sounding than even
>>>the best MP3s. I assume it will be gapless too; another shortcoming of
>>>MP3. I also assume it will allow after-the-fact editing of tracks and
>>>all the other gizmos that make MD stand out. The handling ease and
>>>toughness of the discs can't be ignored either.
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>JT:
>>
>>I was talking about MP3 format in terms of its filesize, not ATRAC3. 1GB =
>>A few 192kbps MP3 albums (an album is roughyl 100MB) 10 albums per 1GB on
>>a 20-30GB hard-drive based MP3 player is an awful lot more portable than
>>carrying 20 HI-MD discs that are undoubtedly going to be very pricey at
>>introduction, not to mention the player cost itself as well as expensive
>>optical cables required (which requires expensive optical-compatible audio
>>gear) to connect. If you already have all of that then cool. Personally, I
>>have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant say which sounds better. Please
>>provide me with resources on comparisons of the formats. I find that sound
>>quality is HIGHLY subjective from user-to-user. And please expand on what
>>'gizmos' you are talking about. My Nomad Zen NX allows for time-shifting
>>playback, reverb adjustment, spatialization, graphical EQ, sorting of
>>artist, album, or genre...the list goes on. As far as toughness, well a
>>solid state MP3 player or even a hard-drive based player is more solid of
>>a format than MD. And it is equally portable and more compatible. Oh yes
>>and much much cheaper on a quantity of music storage basis. All I'm
>>saying, MP3 works for me. Im not bashing any format or saying anything is
>>better than the other. In fact I think that Hi-MD is step in the right
>>direction, for those that use/prefer the MD format. I totally agree with
>>Oogle B.s post that media format choice is dependant upon the users needs
>>and requirements. So check the math on that......
>>
>>EFFENDI
>
>
> Got to disagree that a HDD based player is "more solid" than MD I've dropped
> my Sony MZ-R700 several times (onto hard surfaces) and it's survived. Could
> you really drop an iPod several times and it still play?
>
> BillL
>
>
a resounding YES!!

ive dropped my Nomad Zen NX about 400 times and its still ticking,
dents, scratches and all. I dont know about the MD players... its hard
to drop an MP3 compared to dropping a physical MD.

EFFENDI

[Chuck]

400 times ?

[EFFENDI]

Chuck wrote:
> 400 times ?
>
>
well maybe not that much. a few dozen at least though...LOL

EFFENDI

[jpswanberg]

so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait fo
the latest edition of Beta to be introduced... jp

-
jpswanber
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community
http://www.RealCarAudio.co
jpswanberg's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=290
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5135

[Steve Grauman]

>so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait for
>the latest edition of Beta to be introduced...

The ATRAC3 compression format Sony created for MD is actually superior to MP3,
based on my own personal experiences and listening tests I've seen. Sony's
initial failure with MD was largely the result of improper advertising (or lack
of it), non-existant in-store support for the pre-recorded media and a nearly
complete lack of pre-recorded content. This is similar on the marketing
stupidity scale to Sony's approach with Beta - they refused to license out the
technology to other manufacturers while JVC was more than happy to let other
companies make VHS equipment. HI-MD is said to be quite a good format, but
ultimately Sony's inability to properly market the hardware and the
ever-increasing presence of HDD based MP3 players will probably kill it. It's
only too bad, I've got a Sony 555ES home MD deck with their "Type R" circuitry
that makes very good sounding CD dubs, and between it and my portable player,
I've been able to extract quite a bit of enjoyment from the format. But I'm on
the verge of buying a HDD based MP3 player (probably an iPod) and so even my
pleasent experiences in the past with MD are unlikely to make me want to buy
into the new version. In addition, Sony is the only company left supporting MD
for Car Audio use, but Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, Eclipse and even Sony are all
making HDD equipped decks for car use. Although, I believe that Sony and
Eclipse's units both use the ATRAC3 format rather than MP3. I'm just waiting
for Apple to jump in and make something for the car that'll play MP3s in
addition to AAC and Apple Lossless rips, without the need to connect an iPod
via AUX. inputs.

[Tha Ghee]

"Steve Grauman" > wrote in message
...
> >so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait for
> >the latest edition of Beta to be introduced...
>
> The ATRAC3 compression format Sony created for MD is actually superior to
MP3, based on my own personal experiences and listening tests I've seen.
Sony's
> initial failure with MD was largely the result of improper advertising (or
lack
> of it), non-existant in-store support for the pre-recorded media and a
nearly
> complete lack of pre-recorded content. This is similar on the marketing
> stupidity scale to Sony's approach with Beta - they refused to license out
the
> technology to other manufacturers while JVC was more than happy to let
other
> companies make VHS equipment. HI-MD is said to be quite a good format, but
ultimately Sony's inability to properly market the hardware and the
> ever-increasing presence of HDD based MP3 players will probably kill it.
It's
> only too bad, I've got a Sony 555ES home MD deck with their "Type R"
circuitry that makes very good sounding CD dubs, and between it and my
portable player, I've been able to extract quite a bit of enjoyment from the
format. But I'm on the verge of buying a HDD based MP3 player (probably an
iPod) and so even my pleasent experiences in the past with MD are unlikely
to make me want to buy into the new version. In addition, Sony is the only
company left supporting MD for Car Audio use, but Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood,
Eclipse and even Sony are all making HDD equipped decks for car use.
Although, I believe that Sony and Eclipse's units both use the ATRAC3 format
rather than MP3. I'm just waiting for Apple to jump in and make something
for the car that'll play MP3s in addition to AAC and Apple Lossless rips,
without the need to connect an iPod via AUX. inputs.

ATRAC3 is a better codec than mp3 but like you stated it's less supported, I
think AAC is fine when it come to compromise of sound vs. space. another
good one is ogg. but wma is also making in roads so I think that most
manuf. will support AAC, MP3 &, WMA, before it jumps back to MD.

[Steve Grauman]

>I
>think AAC is fine when it come to compromise of sound vs. space. another
>good one is ogg. but wma is also making in road

..WMA is lossy and useless for anyone with a sensitive ear who's as picky as I
am. The only reason it's made in-roads anywhere is because of the fiancial
support Microsoft is able to throw at the format. Of course there's a newer
"lossless" codec built into Windows Media Player but I find AAC to be very
close in sound quality while needing less space and for some reason, rips made
using Apple's lossless MPEG-4 based codec sound better to me than lossless .WMA
files do. Many of Pioneer's decks will decode .WMA files from CD, but AFAIK
none of the in-car HDD based players will take it. AAC is a superior format, no
surpirse considering Dolby Labs had a hand in it's development.

>so I think that most
>manuf. will support AAC, MP3 &, WMA, before it jumps back to MD

The industry at large never excepted MD to begin with so there's really nothing
to jump back to. If there were suddenly wide-spread industry support for MD,
it'd be the first time. Blaupunkt, Eclipse and Nakamichi made MD capable decks
in limited number for a short period of time. Eclipse dropped theirs after one
model year, Blaupunkt dropped theirs after 2 and Nakamichi now only makes their
unit for Europe, where MD has a slightly larger following.