Re: Bush, The WORST President in History ?

[Tha Ghee]

"thelizman" > wrote in message
...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> > It's difficult not to agree. I've 57 years old, and I've never seen a
President
> > who combined such a lack of "vision" (that is, a coherent view of what
he wanted
> > to accomplish) with such a doctrinaire approach to issues.
>
> Most people with half a clue know that 9/11 defined Bush's presidency
> for him. Before that, he was focused on the economy.
>
Liz he couldn't have been to concerned with the Econ. it's been in shambles
since GWB took over.

[Les]

"Tha Ghee" > wrote in message .
> >
> Liz he couldn't have been to concerned with the Econ. it's been in
shambles
> since GWB took over.
>
>

Not only do you not know about Car audio but economics has passed you by
too. The economy will in and of itself produce peaks and valleys. That is an
important part to our economy staying stable, remember the Great Depression.
The stock market crash was a symptom, not the cause. The economy was turning
bad at the end of the Clinton admin because of the descisions and events
that happened during that time, he did have 8 years to screw it up. Now we
are back on the upswing due in part to the way a capitalistic economy works
and partly to do with the descisions that Bush and Congress have made. And
make no mistake there is more than one person making the economical
descisions in gov't, but we often like to forget that and just blame the one
you see. So Ghee, comment on the economy when you have some understanding on
how it works.

Les

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
>
> Liz he couldn't have been to concerned with the Econ. it's been in shambles
> since GWB took over.

I wouldn't call unprecedented growth "shambles". If you update your
data, you'll see that the collapse of the Clinton economy - which
occurred less than 2 months after Bush came into office, and 3 months
before any Bush policies came into effect.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

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[Tha Ghee]

"Les" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Tha Ghee" > wrote in message .
> > >
> > Liz he couldn't have been to concerned with the Econ. it's been in
> shambles
> > since GWB took over.
> >
> >
>
> Not only do you not know about Car audio but economics has passed you by
> too. The economy will in and of itself produce peaks and valleys. That is
an
> important part to our economy staying stable, remember the Great
Depression.
> The stock market crash was a symptom, not the cause. The economy was
turning bad at the end of the Clinton admin because of the descisions and
events
> that happened during that time, he did have 8 years to screw it up. Now we
> are back on the upswing due in part to the way a capitalistic economy
works
> and partly to do with the descisions that Bush and Congress have made. And
> make no mistake there is more than one person making the economical
> descisions in gov't, but we often like to forget that and just blame the
one
> you see. So Ghee, comment on the economy when you have some understanding
on how it works.
>
> Les
>
I'm sorry you think you know something but you don't if the economy is in
this alleged up turn why is the stock market still low?? why are there no
new jobs, why is the hosing market turning cold, and why is the interest
rate on the rise. until you have an ideal what your talking about come
better. I have a few clues do you?? you'll also know that about every 75
years there is a depression and we're real close to it. I'm not blaming one
person but the collective bunch has done a bad job and told many lies to
cover up their shortcomings.

[Tha Ghee]

"thelizman" > wrote in message
...
> Tha Ghee wrote:
> >
> > Liz he couldn't have been to concerned with the Econ. it's been in
shambles
> > since GWB took over.
>
> I wouldn't call unprecedented growth "shambles". If you update your
> data, you'll see that the collapse of the Clinton economy - which
> occurred less than 2 months after Bush came into office, and 3 months
> before any Bush policies came into effect.
>
unpresented growth where for the rich?? if you new anything you would know
that the ecomony crashed around 9/11 but liek other topics you don't.

[Les]

"Tha Ghee" > wrote in message
> >
> I'm sorry you think you know something but you don't if the economy is in
> this alleged up turn why is the stock market still low??

My stocks are up! And the stock market is not the only indicator of the
economy.

why are there no
> new jobs,

Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
oppurtunities would open up to you.

>why is the hosing market turning cold,

The housing market is fine. The interest rates are good and the avg market
time (how long the house is on the market, I know that Ghee would get
confused if I didn't add that) in my area is great.

and why is the interest
> rate on the rise.

Which interest rate are you talking about? You do realize there are several
interest rates?

until you have an ideal what your talking about come
> better. I have a few clues do you??

Well before we get there why don't you provide some sources for your above
info, you seem to require them for everyone else so why not yourself?

you'll also know that about every 75
> years there is a depression and we're real close to it.

Really? You're not implying that we are near another Great Depression is
about to happen just because its almost 75 years later are you? That's not
how it works.

With all of your talking and spewing you come out looking more and more like
a ****ing retarded pinko everytime you post.

Les

[nmm]

On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 2:22 AM, Les >
wrote:
>Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
>might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
>oppurtunities would open up to you.

Actualy the big job gains, in the recent statistical Voo Doo has been in
the manufacturing section. This is due to "Fast Food Workers" being
classified as "Manufacturers" now.

The Job losses were in Unionised, high paying jobs. So for the Arthur
Anderson type accountants there is an Economic recovery; whereas in reality
there is more unemployment than in the depression. There is no longer Job
security, through the shell game of "Who is the Contractor". There are no
Health Plans, and poor health care.

The prospects for the average american are dismal.

[Les]

"nmm" > wrote in message

> >Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
> >might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
> >oppurtunities would open up to you.
>
> >
> The Job losses were in Unionised, high paying jobs. So for the Arthur
> Anderson type accountants there is an Economic recovery; whereas in
reality
> there is more unemployment than in the depression.

Sources? Or just a bunch of talk? You can say all you want about this or
that and in the end it means nothing without proof.
I was talking about what I have seen with my own eyes. I have friends in all
kinds of job areas and noone seems to have problems here. Not saying there
is not any problems, because there is, but all of this "it's the worst it's
been since the depression" and "it only benifits the wealthy" is a bunch of
****.

> The prospects for the average american are dismal.
>

I am an average american and things look good. My family and friends are
average americans and things are good for them too. My family in New York is
doing well, as is my family in North Carolina. Where are all of these bad
nasty things that "average americans" are supposed to be experiencing?
And IIRC you do not even live in America, so how in the hell are you
supposed to know what it's like for average americans? I don't proceed to
tell someone living in Russia I have a clue about what it's like to live
there because I see some news clips and read a few stats.

[nmm]

On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 9:58 PM, Les >
wrote:
>
>"nmm" > wrote in message
>
>> >Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
>> >might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
>> >oppurtunities would open up to you.
>>
>> >
>> The Job losses were in Unionised, high paying jobs. So for the Arthur
>> Anderson type accountants there is an Economic recovery; whereas in
>reality
>> there is more unemployment than in the depression.
>
>Sources? Or just a bunch of talk? You can say all you want about this or
>that and in the end it means nothing without proof.

I've seen the unemployment stats.. Yes the population is much bigger now,
so percentage wise it isn't as great.. bit there are moe people unemployed
now than in the depression.



>I was talking about what I have seen with my own eyes. I have friends in
all
>kinds of job areas and noone seems to have problems here. Not saying there
>is not any problems, because there is, but all of this "it's the worst
it's
>been since the depression" and "it only benifits the wealthy" is a bunch
of
>****.
>

I hear from my friend in Buffalo all the time about his $200 tax rebate. He
doesn't realise that a lot of his other fees have gone up that more than
cancel this cash in hand pain relief.


> > The prospects for the average american are dismal.
>>
>
>I am an average american and things look good. My family and friends are
>average americans and things are good for them too. My family in New York
>is
>doing well, as is my family in North Carolina.

Out of intrest, Are most of them in unionised jobs? How are their medical
benifits covered? Are they Contract workers, or steadily employed? What
happens if they get injured on the job, are they covered in anyway?


>Where are all of these bad
>nasty things that "average americans" are supposed to be experiencing?
>And IIRC you do not even live in America, so how in the hell are you
>supposed to know what it's like for average americans?

I'm working and living in Toronto right now, but my girlfriend is applying
for jobs in the states ( She's on sabaticle from her New Jersey University
teaching job) . Compared to other years for her there aren't as many
postions available. I have friends that are contractors in Broadcast
working in Atlanta, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, NYC and a few other places.
The engineering firm that contracts labour ( In Minesota) said to me "we
Prefer to hire Canadian labour, because it's more economical, and they are
better trained ". That's Great for me, but for You?
Most of my friends who work in that field are looking for work in other
fields. I know a lot of Canadians that are using their L2 NAFTA visas to do
work that normally Americans would have done. I know a lot of Canadians
working in teh States. AT&T were having all their cable head-ends built in
Canada, and installed by Canadians in the states.

I have friends that work in Graphic design in California an New York state.
They have to lie about their employment ( being part time, not being a
contractor ) in order to get medical coverage from places that they don't
work, because they can't afford to do so the legit way.

In general only a few of the people i know are buying houses, none of the
Americans i know are, especially none of the ones that i'm talking about
above.

Since i might have to move to the states, I"m trying to convince my
girlfriend that she's better off taking a year off and staying in Canada,
rather than trying to have a baby in the States ( cost differance in
medical fees $0 Canadian , or $3,000.00 US ).


>I don't proceed to
>tell someone living in Russia I have a clue about what it's like to live
>there because I see some news clips and read a few stats.
>

I've told Russians and they agree with me; Gorbochev turned a superpower
into a third world country. Imagine what it will be like when your pension
system is bankrupt; that's not far off.

[Tha Ghee]

"Les" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Tha Ghee" > wrote in message
> > >
> > I'm sorry you think you know something but you don't if the economy is
in
> > this alleged up turn why is the stock market still low??
>
> My stocks are up! And the stock market is not the only indicator of the
> economy.
>
> why are there no
> > new jobs,
>
> Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
> might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
> oppurtunities would open up to you.
>
> >why is the hosing market turning cold,
>
> The housing market is fine. The interest rates are good and the avg market
> time (how long the house is on the market, I know that Ghee would get
> confused if I didn't add that) in my area is great.
>
> and why is the interest rate on the rise.
>
> Which interest rate are you talking about? You do realize there are
several
> interest rates?
>
> until you have an ideal what your talking about come better. I have a few
clues do you??
>
> Well before we get there why don't you provide some sources for your above
> info, you seem to require them for everyone else so why not yourself?
>
> you'll also know that about every 75 years there is a depression and we're
real close to it.
>
> Really? You're not implying that we are near another Great Depression is
> about to happen just because its almost 75 years later are you? That's not
> how it works.
>
> With all of your talking and spewing you come out looking more and more
like
> a ****ing retarded pinko everytime you post.
>
> Les
>
dumbass you do realize that there's a big world outside of your market, you
have to think in a Nation view which you don't if the econ was strong the
rates would be higher so that the gov't could collect money do you know
that?? I graduated college have you ever been?? the prime rate(the one
that matters) will rise soon but if GWB is smart he'll tell Greensburg to
put that off. if you read a newspaper but I can tell you don't Les. well
in econ that's about what happens so yes just look at the history of
American and you'll see that this holds true. and Les you seem like a
closed-minded old dick that hasn't had any in awhile.

[Tha Ghee]

"Les" > wrote in message
...
>
> "nmm" > wrote in message
>
> > >Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
> > >might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
> > >oppurtunities would open up to you.
> >
> > >
> > The Job losses were in Unionised, high paying jobs. So for the Arthur
> > Anderson type accountants there is an Economic recovery; whereas in
> reality there is more unemployment than in the depression.
>
> Sources? Or just a bunch of talk? You can say all you want about this or
> that and in the end it means nothing without proof.
> I was talking about what I have seen with my own eyes. I have friends in
all
> kinds of job areas and noone seems to have problems here. Not saying there
> is not any problems, because there is, but all of this "it's the worst
it's
> been since the depression" and "it only benifits the wealthy" is a bunch
of
> ****.
>
> > The prospects for the average american are dismal.
> >
>
> I am an average american and things look good. My family and friends are
> average americans and things are good for them too. My family in New York
is
> doing well, as is my family in North Carolina. Where are all of these bad
> nasty things that "average americans" are supposed to be experiencing?
> And IIRC you do not even live in America, so how in the hell are you
> supposed to know what it's like for average americans? I don't proceed to
> tell someone living in Russia I have a clue about what it's like to live
> there because I see some news clips and read a few stats.
>
it won't matter you won't believe it, you'll say it's propaganda. I'm glad
for you and all your friends but for about 30 million Americans life isn't
good. pick up the NY Times, or LA Times and do some reading.

[Les]

> it won't matter you won't believe it, you'll say it's propaganda.

WTF?? In other words you don't have **** to bring to the table. So instead
you say that someone won't believe it so I am not even going to say it,
which is what I call a strawman.

I'm glad
> for you and all your friends but for about 30 million Americans life isn't
> good. pick up the NY Times, or LA Times and do some reading.

Sure there have been better times, but you and nmn insist that the average
american is suffering and that Bush's plans only help the rich. Well, I say
BULL****. I represented people from different parts of the country,
different backgrounds, lifestyles, professions, income, and ages. Could
things be better? Hell yes they could. Are things just the worst they've
been and were going to have another depression? Hell no. Why don't you look
around, go to the malls and see how hard it is to find a space. Look at the
real estate market and whats being bought and sold. Get your head out of
your ass and just look. From what I see, and what others that I know are
seeing, the times aren't as bad as the "bush bashers" are making it out to
be. I don't always agree with Bush, same as the president before him, but
your ignorant ass is so blinded by trying to find something wrong that you
can't see past your own agenda.

Les

[nmm]

Hey Les that's great but i wrote an extensive reply to you, with people i
know from differant parts of the USA.

The fact is that Neo-Liberalist economics Don't Work! The bureau of stats
amd measuremen's numbers don't equatee to the reality in the streets.

The erosion of Job Protection, Unemployment benifits, and Social Security
overall will lead to a larger state of depression than was seen in the
30s.

Neo-liberal economic policies are to blame. There is no differance from
Clinton to Bush, to Kerry.. They are not setting the agenda that privatises
Water resources, Medical insurance, and so forth. 70 years of progress made
by organised labour is being eroded by legal trickery. That's why all the
GM jobs are in Mexico, and Flint Mi is an abandoned city that I try to
avoid having to stop for gas in.




According to official numbers by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of
January 1999, only 5,950,000 million Americans were unemployed. But the
truth is that while the current official national unemployment rate in the
United States stands at a low 4.3 percent, there are far more people than
that who are either out of work, only able to find part-time work, employed
at below poverty level wages or employed below their skill level. Official
jobless figures are only the tip of the iceberg. In contrast to many
European countries, the United States, in compiling jobless data, excluded
persons without employment who had stopped looking for work. People who
want to work but are discouraged about job opportunities and so have given
up an active job search are not counted here as unemployed. Instead, they
are considered not to be in the labor force. Part-time workers who wanted
full-time jobs are nevertheless counted as fully employed. People working
even as little as one day a week are categorized as "employed." About two
million Americans, for example, are "on-call" workers who are called to
work as needed -- sometimes for one day, sometimes for longer. Substitute
teachers meet this definition. Such a methodology for determining the
extent of unemployment in America is symptomatic, at the very least, of the
lack of official concern regarding the problem. Many might say, with good
reason, that it reflects an intent to mislead.


On Sun, May 2, 2004 2:45 AM, Les > wrote:
>Sure there have been better times, but you and nmn insist that the average
>american is suffering and that Bush's plans only help the rich. Well, I
say
>BULL****. I represented people from different parts of the country,
>different backgrounds, lifestyles, professions, income, and ages. Could
>things be better? Hell yes they could. Are things just the worst they've
>been and were going to have another depression? Hell no. Why don't you
look
>around, go to the malls and see how hard it is to find a space. Look at
the
>real estate market and whats being bought and sold. Get your head out of
>your ass and just look. From what I see, and what others that I know are
>seeing, the times aren't as bad as the "bush bashers" are making it out to
>be. I don't always agree with Bush, same as the president before him, but
>your ignorant ass is so blinded by trying to find something wrong that you
>can't see past your own agenda.
>

maybe your ignorant ass is so blinded trying to see what is right, that
you can't see past what is wrong in the country. You live in NC right? A
lot of people moved there from Western New York and Michigan, ask them why
they left, and how things are back in their home states.

Companies like King Electronics moved out of New York State to avoid paying
the state taxes, break up their unions, and take advantage of lax laws in
places like North Carolina.

My friend in Buffalo had to move out of the city because his car was being
broken into every 2nd week. The restaurant down the street from his
downtown place was torched, and has sat abandoned for 4 years.

Downtown Detroit is a ghost-town.

Meanwhile you live next to one of the largest plants in the world for
reprocessing spent nuclear fuel. Hope that comforts you.

[Les]

"nmm" > wrote in message ...
>
(Snipped a bunch of numbers with some drivel)


I saw your post and that's what you have seen, I am not going to tell you
that what you see is wrong. Quote numbers all you want and it still will not
change what I have seen. Are there millions of Americans jobless? Yes, much
like every capitalistic society. Do I think that everything is fine and
nothing is ruined? No, I am not disillusioned and realize there are
problems. But Your, and Ghee's, insistance that things are so horrible for
the avg. american is just plain BS. Take a look at the malls, the car
dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
your own eyes the avg american living horribly.

>
> On Sun, May 2, 2004 2:45 AM, Les >
wrote:
> >Sure there have been better times, but you and nmn insist that the
average
> >american is suffering and that Bush's plans only help the rich. Well, I
> say
> >BULL****. I represented people from different parts of the country,
> >different backgrounds, lifestyles, professions, income, and ages. Could
> >things be better? Hell yes they could. Are things just the worst they've
> >been and were going to have another depression? Hell no. Why don't you
> look
> >around, go to the malls and see how hard it is to find a space. Look at
> the
> >real estate market and whats being bought and sold. Get your head out of
> >your ass and just look. From what I see, and what others that I know are
> >seeing, the times aren't as bad as the "bush bashers" are making it out
to
> >be. I don't always agree with Bush, same as the president before him, but
> >your ignorant ass is so blinded by trying to find something wrong that
you
> >can't see past your own agenda.
> >
>
> maybe your ignorant ass is so blinded trying to see what is right, that
> you can't see past what is wrong in the country.

I see plenty of things I disagree with. And things that may be wrong for me
in the situations that I am in. Then again, for every one of me that doesn't
like something there is likely another who has no problem with it.

You live in NC right?

Wrong. Thanks for playing though. I have some family and friends in NC
though.

A
> lot of people moved there from Western New York and Michigan, ask them why
> they left, and how things are back in their home states.

Well my family and friends in New York are doing fine, family in Syracuse
and friends in New York city, an actor no less. But I do not know anyone in
Michigan.
>
> Companies like King Electronics moved out of New York State to avoid
paying
> the state taxes, break up their unions, and take advantage of lax laws in
> places like North Carolina.

Well those are state issues. I thought we were discussing federal problems,
specifically those under GWB. Did I miss something?

>
> My friend in Buffalo had to move out of the city because his car was
being
> broken into every 2nd week. The restaurant down the street from his
> downtown place was torched, and has sat abandoned for 4 years.

Ok. My truck was broken into a couple of months ago too while visiting a
friend, it really sucks. But what does this have to do with the avg american
living in bad economic conditions? AFAIK break in's and arson happy no
matter what the economic times are.



>Meanwhile you live next to one of the largest plants in the world >for
>reprocessing spent nuclear fuel. Hope that comforts you.

Well I would assume that the people that actually live there some like it
and some don't, and some benefit from it and some don't. Since I do not live
there though it really doesn't seem to affect me.

BTW I am going on a vacation in the next month to Lake Martin AL, and then
to Rushton LA to see friends. They are both avg americans and both live,
well, like everyone else.

Here is the point, let me know if you have trouble understanding.
I am positive that some people and some areas are struggling, I have no
doubt about that. I am also positive that some people and some areas are
doing ok for themselves. The problem lies in your assertations that the avg
american are having economic troubles across the board. Which is just plain
not true. I know, my family and friends are avg. and most of then are doing
just fine.

On another note. You talk about what they should do and how to solve the
problems. If you and Ghee are such experts at how to solve the economic
troubles then why the hell are you not in office correcting them? Do you
guys really believe that if they listened to you and did what you said that
the problems would disappear? Welcome to a capitalistic society, it's not as
simple as get rid of "Neo-liberal economic policies". (I wonder who you
stole that from) or get rid of this or that, or start this program or do
this policy. It's a constant balance of give and take that will not be
solved and perfected in our lifetime, nor our children's, or the grandkids.

Les

[Andy Weaks]

Les wrote:

> "nmm" > wrote in message ...
> >
> (Snipped a bunch of numbers with some drivel)
>
> I saw your post and that's what you have seen, I am not going to tell you
> that what you see is wrong. Quote numbers all you want and it still will not
> change what I have seen. Are there millions of Americans jobless? Yes, much
> like every capitalistic society. Do I think that everything is fine and
> nothing is ruined? No, I am not disillusioned and realize there are
> problems. But Your, and Ghee's, insistance that things are so horrible for
> the avg. american is just plain BS. Take a look at the malls, the car
> dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
> your own eyes the avg american living horribly.

That is part of the problem. Most if not all of the activity you talk about is
being financed due to low interest rates, not increased wages. What happens when
rates increase? Have you seen the debt load of this country? Our so called
rebound is based on debt and more debt and government spending on the military
and is not sustainable. Look at what just the rumor of increased rates has done
to the market lately. Also the huge debt the country holds (how many trillions
with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest debtor nation now) and the
massive trade imbalance (another "debt") are warning signals that we are on the
precipice of what could be a collapse that makes the great depression look like
sunday school.

Then again maybe it won't if we give the rich another tax break.

[Les]

"Andy Weaks" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is part of the problem. Most if not all of the activity you talk
about is
> being financed due to low interest rates, not increased wages.

Prove it. The interest rates are low, and that is a good thing. Increased
wages or not the rates being low help the economy.

What happens when
> rates increase?

Then the rates increase. But for those who have bought houses and cars with
fixed rates there is no problem. Most credit cards have fixed interest rates
as long as you make your minimum. Noone wants the rates to increase but that
is the way the capitalistic economy works.

Have you seen the debt load of this country? Our so called
> rebound is based on debt and more debt and government spending on the
military
> and is not sustainable.

Again, prove it. At least nmn provides numbers and evidence, with which I
have no problem with. I think you watch too much cable TV news and are
merely spouting drivel back onto the newsgroups. And I also think you have
reading comprehension troubles as to what the issue is that we have been
talking about.

Look at what just the rumor of increased rates has done
> to the market lately.

Look at what it does anytime, no matter the economic conditions.

Also the huge debt the country holds (how many trillions
> with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest debtor nation now)
and the
> massive trade imbalance (another "debt")

I like that, it's not really a "debt" so you have to put it in quotations to
try and make it seem like it is. Very tricky.....

are warning signals that we are on the
> precipice of what could be a collapse that makes the great depression look
like
> sunday school.

You're one of those conspiracy theorists aren't you? Could be??? I would
agree with that. Then again it could be the biggest boom we have ever seen,
or it could be the end of the world. Could be's and maybe and it could
happen are not relevant to this particular discussion, which is present day,
right now. You crazy tree huggers.


Well since you know so much you better march your ass down to the White
House and tell them that you know what's wrong and how to fix it. I am sure
they are scratching their heads waiting on you.

>
> Then again maybe it won't if we give the rich another tax break.
>

Damn? I'm rich????? I didn't even know, but I must be since the tax breaks
help me and my avg income family.
BTW the rich people buy stuff from us avg people, and the employ the avg
people. If they have more money to spend then theoretically we should
benefit as well. Then again, that's theory, and it all depends on who's
wealthy at the time.

Les

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
>
> I'm sorry you think you know something but you don't if the economy is in
> this alleged up turn why is the stock market still low??

Stock markets have ****-all to do with economic health. That's like
saying that slow sales of high priced tomatoes at the grocery store in
winter is a sure sign of depression.

> why are there no
> new jobs,

Unemployment continues to drop - how do you think this happens without
new jobs, ya dumbass?

> why is the hosing market turning cold

I don't know about the hosing market. The housing market is levelling
off after low interest rates fueled a housing boom. If the housing
market didn't level off, deflationary pressures would cause a
devaluation of real estate holdings, which is bad bad bad for the economy.

> and why is the interest
> rate on the rise.

They're not on the rise. The Fed is currently discussing an increase in
rates in order to check any latent inflationary pressures. If you
continue to lower the interest rate, it causes the value of money to go
down. That's economic 101.

> until you have an ideal what your talking about come
> better.

You should talk. You know even less about macroeconomics than you claim
to know about car audio.

> I have a few clues do you?? you'll also know that about every 75
> years there is a depression and we're real close to it.

Near it? The time passed in 1997 - we are four years into that economic
cycle. The dot-com bust is analogous to the rampant speculation that
fueled Black Thursday. At this point, we are actually in recovery for
the Millenial Depression, and so long as we dont' do anything stupid
(like the New Deal) we'll have a boom economy starting in 3 years.

> I'm not blaming one
> person but the collective bunch has done a bad job and told many lies to
> cover up their shortcomings.

Name the "many lies".

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
> "thelizman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I wouldn't call unprecedented growth "shambles". If you update your
>>data, you'll see that the collapse of the Clinton economy - which
>>occurred less than 2 months after Bush came into office, and 3 months
>>before any Bush policies came into effect.
>>
>
> unpresented growth where for the rich?? if you new anything you would know
> that the ecomony crashed around 9/11 but liek other topics you don't.

It would be one thing to **** up the spelling of "unprecedented" if you
were using the word cold, but you ****ed it up right after reading it in
my quote.

If you KNEW anything, you'd know that 9/11 was a depressive factor, but
that the recession was in full effect well before then. It was the hot
topic of the summer, the post-dot-com era, the collapse of tech stocks,
the failure of Enron/Global Crossing/Tyco et al, and so on happenned
before 9/11. Bush warned in his campaign stump speaches of the oncoming
depression, and he was accused of "talking down the economy".

Now what is it called when you do it?

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[thelizman]

nmm wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 2:22 AM, Les >
> wrote:
>
>>Noone around here is having any trouble, but I can understand where you
>>might be having some problems. If you graduated high school more
>>oppurtunities would open up to you.
>
>
> Actualy the big job gains, in the recent statistical Voo Doo has been in
> the manufacturing section. This is due to "Fast Food Workers" being
> classified as "Manufacturers" now.

Nobody is talking about unit-statistics here. We're talking about
overall job growth, and no matter where you classify the burger
flippers, they're still jobs.


> So for the Arthur
> Anderson type accountants there is an Economic recovery; whereas in reality
> there is more unemployment than in the depression.

Surely you're not referring to the great depression, where unemployment
peaked at 22%, as opposed to today unemployment which sits around 5.6%.

> There is no longer Job
> security, through the shell game of "Who is the Contractor".

Job security is a myth. There is no such thing in a free market economy.

> There are no
> Health Plans, and poor health care.

Did you get this speel of the Democratic Talking Points memo? The health
plan at McDonalds is better than most manufacturing workers have access to!

> The prospects for the average american are dismal.

Seems to me the "average american" is doing very well, considering
consumer confidence is up, and real incomes are up.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[nmm]

On Mon, May 3, 2004 1:14 AM, Les > wrote:
>On another note. You talk about what they should do and how to solve the
>problems. If you and Ghee are such experts at how to solve the economic
>troubles then why the hell are you not in office correcting them? Do you
>guys really believe that if they listened to you and did what you said
that
>the problems would disappear? Welcome to a capitalistic society, it's not
>as
>simple as get rid of "Neo-liberal economic policies". (I wonder who you
>stole that from) or get rid of this or that, or start this program or do
>this policy. It's a constant balance of give and take that will not be
>solved and perfected in our lifetime, nor our children's, or the
grandkids.
>

Fine I agree with you. Some people are doing OK, and some aren't. States
that tried to provide a social net, and worker friendly enviorments, have
had their laws undermined by companies that moved their operations out of
the country. Look at GM's operations in Mexico.

But answer some basic questions:

- How Secure is your job?

-What is your source of Medicare, and how secure is that?

Neo-liberal economic policies have been consistant from Reagan, Thatcher,
Mulroney, Bush 1&2, Clinton.

Bush 2 has gone out of his way to undo the social safety net, but that is
all part of the neo-liberal strategy.

There has been enough food for the entire world since the 1950s, noone is
doing anything about that. There are people in America that are hungry.
Meanwhile Raytheon shares are up, due to government spending. The
"Conservative" philosophy is for a "smaller government".. that is false
representation.

I don't think Kerry will do anything that differant; if there is a change
of the guard, it will be the same guard.

[Andy Weaks]

Les wrote:

> "Andy Weaks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That is part of the problem. Most if not all of the activity you talk
> about is
> > being financed due to low interest rates, not increased wages.
>
> Prove it. The interest rates are low, and that is a good thing. Increased
> wages or not the rates being low help the economy.
>

of course it has, and it can't be sustainable.

"US consumer debt has reached staggering levels after more than doubling
over the past 10 years. According to the most recent figures from the
Federal Reserve Board, consumer debt hit $1.98 trillion in October
2003, up from $1.5 trillion three years ago. This figure, representing
credit card and car loan debt, but excluding mortgages, translates into
approximately $18,700 per US household."

"Outstanding consumer credit, including mortgage and other debt, reached
$9.3 trillion in April 2003, representing an increase from $7 trillion in
January 2000. The total credit card debt alone stands at $735 billion,
with the household card debt of those who carry balances estimated to
average $12,000."

According to CNNMoney, consumer spending accounts for some 70
percent of the US gross domestic product. “So the world economy is
leveraged to the US consumer. And the US consumer is leveraged to the
hilt,” states the web site.

from the WSWS (just the first to show in Google) notice no opinions

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/debt-j15.shtml

next with opinion

The Federal Reserve recently reported that the amount of consumer debt in the
U.S. leapt up more than 5.2% in the month of August. This was the fifth
consecutive month of increases in household debt, and by far the largest rise
over that time period.

While lowering jobless claims, a sinking bond market, and a rising stock market
portend an improving American economy, there is something about the consumer
debt trend that is absolutely terrifying.

from the Motley Fool

and another view
http://www.homeboundmortgage.com/Mortgage_Info/Mortgage01_27_04/Mortgage9_Refinancing.htm

There is much more if you like but I tire of you.


>
> What happens when
> > rates increase?
>
> Then the rates increase. But for those who have bought houses and cars with
> fixed rates there is no problem. Most credit cards have fixed interest rates
> as long as you make your minimum. Noone wants the rates to increase but that
> is the way the capitalistic economy works.
>

Most credit cards are not fixed. Noon of mine are. Most of the offers in the
mail are for variable rates, if they were fixed I would get one.


> Have you seen the debt load of this country? Our so called
> > rebound is based on debt and more debt and government spending on the
> military
> > and is not sustainable.
>
> Again, prove it. At least nmn provides numbers and evidence, with which I
> have no problem with. I think you watch too much cable TV news and are
> merely spouting drivel back onto the newsgroups. And I also think you have
> reading comprehension troubles as to what the issue is that we have been
> talking about.
>

First I don't watch much tv. Some speedvision here and there. And this, from the
last line of the post I responded, "Take a look at the malls, the car
dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with your
own eyes the avg american living horribly." Sounds like you don't know what YOU
are talking about. I said it all may be an illusion based on credit. Credit that
many people other than myself thinks is a problem for the country.

See above articles and I guess you haven't noticed it but the government on
track to spend $500 billion BILLION more than it takes in this fiscal year. The
interest payment on the national debt is about $350 Billion a year. That is
about 15% of the total budget. What happens when interest rates go up? We now
owe a total of over $7 trillion.

I found an interesting site

http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/

You ever hear of Paul Weyrich?


>
> Look at what just the rumor of increased rates has done
> > to the market lately.
>
> Look at what it does anytime, no matter the economic conditions.
>
> Also the huge debt the country holds (how many trillions
> > with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest debtor nation now)
> and the
> > massive trade imbalance (another "debt")
>
> I like that, it's not really a "debt" so you have to put it in quotations to
> try and make it seem like it is. Very tricky.....
>

Read the Greider's latest article on the trade imbalance in the Nation and then
get back to me why I put it in quotation marks. The rest of the world is
beginning own us. I remember the shrill calls of xenophobia when the Japanese
were buying up some american landmarks. That was nothing compared the trade
deficit and debt owned by foreigners.


>
> are warning signals that we are on the
> > precipice of what could be a collapse that makes the great depression look
> like
> > sunday school.
>
> You're one of those conspiracy theorists aren't you? Could be??? I would
> agree with that. Then again it could be the biggest boom we have ever seen,
> or it could be the end of the world. Could be's and maybe and it could
> happen are not relevant to this particular discussion, which is present day,
> right now. You crazy tree huggers.

Why do you think I am tree hugger? Because I think that the debt this country is
piling up is dangerous to its economic well being. Name calling is unbecoming.
Did you see that guy that runs Berkshire Hathaway is also saying things need to
change? I am not the only person that thinks debt levels are too high. Hell I
belonged to the Concord Coalition back in the early 90s. It is relevant today,
how could it be not, spending today is debt tomorrow.


> Well since you know so much you better march your ass down to the White
> House and tell them that you know what's wrong and how to fix it. I am sure
> they are scratching their heads waiting on you.
>

See Paul Weyrich. There is a method to this madness. Why has BUSH, Bush of all
people run up the largest debt in history.

I haven't been able to donate enough money to get a visitation. I doubt a two
hundred dollar campaign contribution will get me in the door. As a aside, did
you see where Halliburton has cut its lobbying budget in half since 2001. I
wonder why?


>
> > Then again maybe it won't if we give the rich another tax break.
> >
>
> Damn? I'm rich????? I didn't even know, but I must be since the tax breaks
> help me and my avg income family.

My wife has a small business and I have mid level job and we paid about the
same this year. My wife did $2000 less business than the year before and paid
more taxes. We don't have kids.


> BTW the rich people buy stuff from us avg people, and the employ the avg
> people. If they have more money to spend then theoretically we should
> benefit as well. Then again, that's theory, and it all depends on who's
> wealthy at the time.
>
> Les

Again see what the sage of omaha has to say about taxes and the rich.

[Les]

"Andy Weaks" > wrote in message
...
> "US consumer debt has reached staggering levels after more than doubling
> over the past 10 years. According to the most recent figures from the
> Federal Reserve Board, consumer debt hit $1.98 trillion in October
> 2003, up from $1.5 trillion three years ago. This figure, representing
> credit card and car loan debt, but excluding mortgages, translates into
> approximately $18,700 per US household."

So, approximately one nice car per household. Some people have problems with
money management. But before you go any further look at the title of the
post, then look at what the discussion was about. Whatever numbers you spout
it still does not prove the original part that I initially argued with,
which is where are the bad times? The avg american is not living horribly.

>
> "Outstanding consumer credit, including mortgage and other debt, reached
> $9.3 trillion in April 2003, representing an increase from $7 trillion in
> January 2000. The total credit card debt alone stands at $735 billion,
> with the household card debt of those who carry balances estimated to
> average $12,000."

So that is the average for all classes combined. I would be interested to
see what the avg debt for the "middle class" is. A figure that is all
encompassing like that really has no relevance to the discussion of what an
average middle class american carries in debt. Even though it is the
"Average" for the whole does not mean it is the average for a class.

> >
> > What happens when
> > > rates increase?
> >
> > Then the rates increase. But for those who have bought houses and cars
with
> > fixed rates there is no problem. Most credit cards have fixed interest
rates
> > as long as you make your minimum. Noone wants the rates to increase but
that
> > is the way the capitalistic economy works.
> >
>
> Most credit cards are not fixed. Noon of mine are. Most of the offers in
the
> mail are for variable rates, if they were fixed I would get one.

2 of mine are, the third was one for the first year then became variable so
I cancelled it. You just have to look harder. Then again it is harder to
get approved for a fixed interest if your rating is bad. It is also a double
edged sword. When the interest swing lower your paying more, but when it
rises you save.
>
>
> > Have you seen the debt load of this country? Our so called
> > > rebound is based on debt and more debt and government spending on the
> > military
> > > and is not sustainable.
> >
> > Again, prove it. At least nmn provides numbers and evidence, with which
I
> > have no problem with. I think you watch too much cable TV news and are
> > merely spouting drivel back onto the newsgroups. And I also think you
have
> > reading comprehension troubles as to what the issue is that we have been
> > talking about.
> >
>
> First I don't watch much tv. Some speedvision here and there. And this,
from the
> last line of the post I responded, "Take a look at the malls, the car
> dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
your
> own eyes the avg american living horribly." Sounds like you don't know
what YOU
> are talking about. I said it all may be an illusion based on credit.
Credit that
> many people other than myself thinks is a problem for the country.

It can be a problem. But with wise money management credit is not a bad
thing. I have not been able to find stats on that ratio.

>

>
>
> >
> > Look at what just the rumor of increased rates has done
> > > to the market lately.
> >
> > Look at what it does anytime, no matter the economic conditions.
> >
> > Also the huge debt the country holds (how many trillions
> > > with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest debtor nation
now)
> > and the
> > > massive trade imbalance (another "debt")
> >
> > I like that, it's not really a "debt" so you have to put it in
quotations to
> > try and make it seem like it is. Very tricky.....
> >
>
> Read the Greider's latest article on the trade imbalance in the Nation and
then
> get back to me why I put it in quotation marks.

So you didn't even come up with the word play on your own? I'm disapointed
in you. If it's a debt then the quotations would be unnecessary, but when
your trying to make it seem like it is you use the quotations and then try
and reason. It's a decent way to argue when the other person doesn't call
you out on it.

> >
> > are warning signals that we are on the
> > > precipice of what could be a collapse that makes the great depression
look
> > like
> > > sunday school.
> >
> > You're one of those conspiracy theorists aren't you? Could be??? I would
> > agree with that. Then again it could be the biggest boom we have ever
seen,
> > or it could be the end of the world. Could be's and maybe and it could
> > happen are not relevant to this particular discussion, which is present
day,
> > right now. You crazy tree huggers.
>
> Why do you think I am tree hugger? Because I think that the debt this
country is
> piling up is dangerous to its economic well being. Name calling is
unbecoming.

Give up your holier than thou bull****, I don't have time to play.

> Did you see that guy that runs Berkshire Hathaway is also saying things
need to
> change? I am not the only person that thinks debt levels are too high.
Hell I
> belonged to the Concord Coalition back in the early 90s. It is relevant
today,
> how could it be not, spending today is debt tomorrow.


>
> > Well since you know so much you better march your ass down to the White
> > House and tell them that you know what's wrong and how to fix it. I am
sure
> > they are scratching their heads waiting on you.
> >
>
> See Paul Weyrich. There is a method to this madness. Why has BUSH, Bush of
all
> people run up the largest debt in history.
>
> I haven't been able to donate enough money to get a visitation. I doubt a
two
> hundred dollar campaign contribution will get me in the door. As a aside,
did
> you see where Halliburton has cut its lobbying budget in half since 2001.
I
> wonder why?

Well that's a ****ing shame. We can all tell that you could solve all of the
nations economic troubles. It's easy to sit here and think that we know
everything and we can tell what all of the problems are, but I doubt that we
could fathom the pressures felt and the considerable effects of the
descisions we would make if what we think is right was put into practice.
>
>
> >
> > > Then again maybe it won't if we give the rich another tax break.
> > >
> >
> > Damn? I'm rich????? I didn't even know, but I must be since the tax
breaks
> > help me and my avg income family.
>
> My wife has a small business and I have mid level job and we paid about
the
> same this year. My wife did $2000 less business than the year before and
paid
> more taxes. We don't have kids.

I don't have kids either and make an average income, but I benefited. My
business will launch this year so I am interested to see the taxes involved
in detail and get a hard number.
>
>
> > BTW the rich people buy stuff from us avg people, and the employ the avg
> > people. If they have more money to spend then theoretically we should
> > benefit as well. Then again, that's theory, and it all depends on who's
> > wealthy at the time.
> >
> > Les
>
> Again see what the sage of omaha has to say about taxes and the rich.
>

Again, I am offering my observations and opinions. I do not give a ****
about what the sage of omaha says. What do you say? Think for yourself.

Les

[Les]

"nmm" > wrote in message >
> But answer some basic questions:
>
> - How Secure is your job?

As secure as any. In the forseeable future I do not have anything to worry
about. The only problem could be is if I **** off the wrong person or decide
to leave.
>
> -What is your source of Medicare, and how secure is that?

My medical and dental are gotten through my employer, so it's as secure as
my job is. So for the foreseeable future I am not worrying about it for
myself. My parents get it through my mothers work. Some of the others in my
family get it through the gov't but I do not know the details.

>
> Neo-liberal economic policies have been consistant from Reagan, Thatcher,
> Mulroney, Bush 1&2, Clinton.
>
> Bush 2 has gone out of his way to undo the social safety net, but that is
> all part of the neo-liberal strategy.

Explain what you mean in more detail? How? With what policies?
(actually not being argumentative this time)

Les

[nmm]

On Mon, May 3, 2004 11:35 PM, Les >
wrote:
> The avg american is not living horribly.

That's relative.

Compared to teh average Canadian, Swede, Australian, Dutch, they are
living horribly.

Compared to the average Somalian, Aritriean, Iraqi, Palestinian, Ivory
Coast, Ghanaian, they are living well, and have similar medical coverage.

[nmm]

On Mon, May 3, 2004 11:42 PM, Les >
wrote:
>
>"nmm" > wrote in message >
>> But answer some basic questions:
>>
>> - How Secure is your job?
>
>As secure as any. In the forseeable future I do not have anything to worry
>about. The only problem could be is if I **** off the wrong person or
decide
>to leave.
>>
>> -What is your source of Medicare, and how secure is that?
>
>My medical and dental are gotten through my employer, so it's as secure as
>my job is. So for the foreseeable future I am not worrying about it for
>myself. My parents get it through my mothers work. Some of the others in
>my
>family get it through the gov't but I do not know the details.
>

So your medical benifits are dependant on your job, which in tern is
dependant on "Not ****ing off the wrong person". I wish i had faith in such
a system.



>>
>> Neo-liberal economic policies have been consistant from Reagan,
>Thatcher,
>> Mulroney, Bush 1&2, Clinton.
>>
>> Bush 2 has gone out of his way to undo the social safety net, but that
is
>> all part of the neo-liberal strategy.
>
>Explain what you mean in more detail? How? With what policies?
>(actually not being argumentative this time)
>
>Les


The "Neo-Liberal" agenda is the privatisation of what were the domains of
publicly held agencies; Hospitals, Water, Electricity, Banking etc...

There hasn't been any major policy shift against this trend by either of
the American political parties. This is because the intrests that control
the major political parties and the media want to reduce the price of
labour and the amount of taxation on corporations. Compare the levels of
corporate taxation from the 1950/60s to now. Large corporations are
"Transnational" keeping their financial centres in places that are "Tax
Havens".


Removing the social net, or "putting it in the hands of Private Industry"
will reduce the cost of labour, and the obligations of employers. Contract
labour don't have the same benifits that regular labour , or unionsied
(historical term these days) did.

Yes Jobs are eliminated, and jobs are created. The jobs that are being
eliminated are the ones that were secure, provided decent wages, and
ensured the obigations of employers. The ones being created are Temporary
Contract work. Even the Army are contracting out security work. The third
largest force in the "Co-allition " is contract security workers.

This is the "Neo-Liberal" agenda of circumventing labour laws.

I hope you don't **** off the wrong person.

[Tha Ghee]

"Andy Weaks" > wrote in message
...
> Les wrote:
>
> > "nmm" > wrote in message
...
> > >
> > (Snipped a bunch of numbers with some drivel)
> >
> > I saw your post and that's what you have seen, I am not going to tell
you
> > that what you see is wrong. Quote numbers all you want and it still will
not
> > change what I have seen. Are there millions of Americans jobless? Yes,
much like every capitalistic society. Do I think that everything is fine and
> > nothing is ruined? No, I am not disillusioned and realize there are
> > problems. But Your, and Ghee's, insistance that things are so horrible
for
> > the avg. american is just plain BS. Take a look at the malls, the car
> > dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
> > your own eyes the avg american living horribly.
>
> That is part of the problem. Most if not all of the activity you talk
about is
> being financed due to low interest rates, not increased wages. What
happens when rates increase? Have you seen the debt load of this country?
Our so called
> rebound is based on debt and more debt and government spending on the
military and is not sustainable. Look at what just the rumor of increased
rates has done to the market lately. Also the huge debt the country holds
(how many trillions with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest
debtor nation now) and the massive trade imbalance (another "debt") are
warning signals that we are on the precipice of what could be a collapse
that makes the great depression look like sunday school.
>
> Then again maybe it won't if we give the rich another tax break.
>
great point Andy, look how the stock market took a dive when there was talk
about a rate hike. Les I thought we had a robust economy.

[Tha Ghee]

"Les" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Andy Weaks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "US consumer debt has reached staggering levels after more than doubling
> > over the past 10 years. According to the most recent figures from the
> > Federal Reserve Board, consumer debt hit $1.98 trillion in October
> > 2003, up from $1.5 trillion three years ago. This figure, representing
> > credit card and car loan debt, but excluding mortgages, translates into
> > approximately $18,700 per US household."
>
> So, approximately one nice car per household. Some people have problems
with money management. But before you go any further look at the title of
the
> post, then look at what the discussion was about. Whatever numbers you
spout
> it still does not prove the original part that I initially argued with,
> which is where are the bad times? The avg american is not living horribly.
>
> >
> > "Outstanding consumer credit, including mortgage and other debt, reached
> > $9.3 trillion in April 2003, representing an increase from $7 trillion
in
> > January 2000. The total credit card debt alone stands at $735 billion,
> > with the household card debt of those who carry balances estimated to
> > average $12,000."
>
> So that is the average for all classes combined. I would be interested to
> see what the avg debt for the "middle class" is. A figure that is all
> encompassing like that really has no relevance to the discussion of what
an
> average middle class american carries in debt. Even though it is the
> "Average" for the whole does not mean it is the average for a class.
>
Les are you stupid or just thick. if the avg. American has $19k in debt
this is horrible for the economy if there is any kind of large down turn and
banks call in their markers we will be in a recession.

[Tha Ghee]

"thelizman" > wrote in message
...
> Tha Ghee wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry you think you know something but you don't if the economy is
in
> > this alleged up turn why is the stock market still low??
>
> Stock markets have ****-all to do with economic health. That's like
> saying that slow sales of high priced tomatoes at the grocery store in
> winter is a sure sign of depression.
>
> > why are there no new jobs,
>
> Unemployment continues to drop - how do you think this happens without
> new jobs, ya dumbass?
>
> > why is the hosing market turning cold
>
> I don't know about the hosing market. The housing market is levelling
> off after low interest rates fueled a housing boom. If the housing
> market didn't level off, deflationary pressures would cause a
> devaluation of real estate holdings, which is bad bad bad for the economy.
>
> > and why is the interest rate on the rise.
>
> They're not on the rise. The Fed is currently discussing an increase in
> rates in order to check any latent inflationary pressures. If you
> continue to lower the interest rate, it causes the value of money to go
> down. That's economic 101.
>
> > until you have an ideal what your talking about come better.
>
> You should talk. You know even less about macroeconomics than you claim
> to know about car audio.
>
> > I have a few clues do you?? you'll also know that about every 75
> > years there is a depression and we're real close to it.
>
> Near it? The time passed in 1997 - we are four years into that economic
> cycle. The dot-com bust is analogous to the rampant speculation that
> fueled Black Thursday. At this point, we are actually in recovery for
> the Millenial Depression, and so long as we dont' do anything stupid
> (like the New Deal) we'll have a boom economy starting in 3 years.
>
> > I'm not blaming one person but the collective bunch has done a bad job
and told many lies to cover up their shortcomings.
>
> Name the "many lies".
>
> --
> thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"
>
> Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
> http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
> a half of knowledge.
>
> teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
> teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
> "It's about the music, stupid"
>
> This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
> other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
> is forbidden.

theliz you're stupid, the stock market has a lot to do with the health and
strength of the economy, now I know you have little knowledge about anything
past car audio. could be that people are not looking or they fall of the
list of UE but that may be lost on you. no middle management is loosing
their jobs overseas so they can't afford nice houses just apts. or they're
in foreclosure. did you see what's happening to the market with the talk
about rising the IR it went in the tank. if you think so liz. I highly
doubt will have a upturn or any better econ. if we tread water that will be
a windfall. I said ABOUT every 75 years. have you picked up a paper or
watched TV??

[Tha Ghee]

"thelizman" > wrote in message
...
> Tha Ghee wrote:
> > "thelizman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I wouldn't call unprecedented growth "shambles". If you update your
> >>data, you'll see that the collapse of the Clinton economy - which
> >>occurred less than 2 months after Bush came into office, and 3 months
> >>before any Bush policies came into effect.
> >
> > unpresented growth where for the rich?? if you new anything you would
knowthat the ecomony crashed around 9/11 but liek other topics you don't.
>
> It would be one thing to **** up the spelling of "unprecedented" if you
> were using the word cold, but you ****ed it up right after reading it in
> my quote.
>
> If you KNEW anything, you'd know that 9/11 was a depressive factor, but
> that the recession was in full effect well before then. It was the hot
> topic of the summer, the post-dot-com era, the collapse of tech stocks,
> the failure of Enron/Global Crossing/Tyco et al, and so on happenned
> before 9/11. Bush warned in his campaign stump speaches of the oncoming
> depression, and he was accused of "talking down the economy".
>
> Now what is it called when you do it?
>
> --
> thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"
>
> Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
> http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
> a half of knowledge.
>
> teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
> teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
> "It's about the music, stupid"
>
> This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
> other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
> is forbidden.

where is unprecedented growth, if you look no one has jobs, but productivity
is up because people know if they don't bust azz on the job they may not
have one for a year. and your point is?? "Now what is it called when you
do it" what are you saying here??

[Tha Ghee]

Les" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "nmm" > wrote in message ...
> >
> (Snipped a bunch of numbers with some drivel)
>
> I saw your post and that's what you have seen, I am not going to tell you
> that what you see is wrong. Quote numbers all you want and it still will
not change what I have seen. Are there millions of Americans jobless? Yes,
much like every capitalistic society. Do I think that everything is fine and
> nothing is ruined? No, I am not disillusioned and realize there are
> problems. But Your, and Ghee's, insistance that things are so horrible for
> the avg. american is just plain BS. Take a look at the malls, the car
> dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
> your own eyes the avg american living horribly.
>
why are the numbers snipped because you can't refute them?? they are
horrible why is the consumer debt at an all time high if the job market was
good this wouldn't be a problem. get your head out the sand

well car sells are down for the year. retail is still not strong past
wally-world. like always the rich get richer, and the poor get nothing.

[Tha Ghee]

"Les" > wrote in message
m...
>
> > it won't matter you won't believe it, you'll say it's propaganda.
>
> WTF?? In other words you don't have **** to bring to the table. So instead
> you say that someone won't believe it so I am not even going to say it,
> which is what I call a strawman.
>
> I'm glad for you and all your friends but for about 30 million Americans
life
isn't good. pick up the NY Times, or LA Times and do some reading.
>
> Sure there have been better times, but you and nmn insist that the average
> american is suffering and that Bush's plans only help the rich. Well, I
say BULL****. I represented people from different parts of the country,
> different backgrounds, lifestyles, professions, income, and ages. Could
> things be better? Hell yes they could. Are things just the worst they've
> been and were going to have another depression? Hell no. Why don't you
look around, go to the malls and see how hard it is to find a space. Look at
the real estate market and whats being bought and sold. Get your head out of
> your ass and just look. From what I see, and what others that I know are
> seeing, the times aren't as bad as the "bush bashers" are making it out to
> be. I don't always agree with Bush, same as the president before him, but
> your ignorant ass is so blinded by trying to find something wrong that you
> can't see past your own agenda.
>
> Les
>
go to www.findarticle.com . who do you represent. you probably don't know
anyone that's unemployed. and I doubt you know for sure if were going to
have a depression or not. like I posted before retail sales are down. I
have no agenda, I'm just trying to get my million. I see it all just look
around Cincy, which is very republican and to say the job market here is
bleak is being kind. I have "agenda" or problem with GWB past him being a
dullard. I like that he's in, cause when I hit a mil. he'll help to keep me
rich.

[Les]

"Tha Ghee" > wrote in message > >
> great point Andy, look how the stock market took a dive when there was
talk
> about a rate hike. Les I thought we had a robust economy.
>
>

And in a couple of weeks some good news will come out and it will climb.
Does that mean that everything is fine? One dive, one climb, it doesn't
matter. Would you like to try again?

Les

[Les]

"Tha Ghee" > wrote in message > >
> > So that is the average for all classes combined. I would be interested
to
> > see what the avg debt for the "middle class" is. A figure that is all
> > encompassing like that really has no relevance to the discussion of what
> an
> > average middle class american carries in debt. Even though it is the
> > "Average" for the whole does not mean it is the average for a class.
> >
> Les are you stupid or just thick. if the avg. American has $19k in debt
> this is horrible for the economy if there is any kind of large down turn
and
> banks call in their markers we will be in a recession.
>
>

The average debt that was quoted was for ALL Americans. You cannot take that
data and extrapolate with any reasonable accuracy that the avg middle class
American is 19k in debt.
And I guess you have not taken out a loan recently. Most loans, i.e. any I
have seen, cannot make the loan due immediately. They have to finish out
their duration. Also, the data does not take into account people who use
credit cars to purchase very large money items. I purchased $10,000 dollars
worth of PA gear on a credit card, it was 0% interest for a year and I paid
it off. Same as cash. My dad did the same thing with tools for his business.
But the numbers do not take that into account. And then let us not forget
the wealthy who are in that figure. On client that we worked with had a
party that cost $30,000, guess how they paid for it? Did you even have a
point?

Les

[Les]

"Tha Ghee" > wrote in message


Quote numbers all you want and it still will
> not change what I have seen. Are there millions of Americans jobless?
Yes,
> much like every capitalistic society. Do I think that everything is fine
and
> > nothing is ruined? No, I am not disillusioned and realize there are
> > problems. But Your, and Ghee's, insistance that things are so horrible
for
> > the avg. american is just plain BS. Take a look at the malls, the car
> > dealerships, the entertainment industry and then tell me if you see with
> > your own eyes the avg american living horribly.
> >
> why are the numbers snipped because you can't refute them??

Read this line that I wrote again, I already answered your ignorant ass
question before you wrote it. I said "Quote numbers all you want and it
still will not change what I have seen."
If you would develop your reading comprehension skills you would have
answered your own question.

Les

[nmm]

On Sun, May 9, 2004 2:21 AM, Les > wrote:
>Read this line that I wrote again, I already answered your ignorant ass
>question before you wrote it. I said "Quote numbers all you want and it
>still will not change what I have seen."
>If you would develop your reading comprehension skills you would have
>answered your own question.
>
>Les
>

Well Les, i was still waiting for a response to my other post.

What would you do with no job or healthcare, all because you said the
wrong thing to the wrong person?

You concievably could lose everything if you wre to get seriously il, and
terminated from your job. Are you going to count on some "Faith Based
Initiative" to help you out?

[Les]

> >
>
> Well Les, i was still waiting for a response to my other post.

Well cosidering you don't make a point and are just asking dumb questions I
passed on it. But I'll humor you anyway.
>
> What would you do with no job or healthcare, all because you said the
> wrong thing to the wrong person?

The same ****ing thing that anyone would (should) do. Get another job. What
the hell else am I supposed to do? I guess you're one of the people who
thinks that it's the governments responsibility to take care of me? I don't
work that way. If I lose this job, I will simply find another.

>
> You concievably could lose everything if you wre to get seriously il, and
> terminated from your job.

Sure, I could conceivably get killed in a car wreck too. I could get
seriously ill and die from that as well. What's your point? You are merely
stating something that is true for everyone. You seem to have a problem that
I have my health insurance through my job, well I don't. I had health
insurance before I got this job and I will have it after.

Are you going to count on some "Faith Based
> Initiative" to help you out?
>

No, I will rely on my skill set, work ethic, and my own initiative to help
me out.
nmm, what the hell is your point? I would do what anyone else with a sense
of personal responsibility would do, so I fail to see where you are going.
Make a solid point and state your view or quit ****ing bothering me.

Les

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:

> theliz you're stupid, the stock market has a lot to do with the health and
> strength of the economy,

No, they don't. One only has to look at the value of stock prices
compared to aggregate demand to see that stock prices react to the
economy as slowly as three months after the fact. Anyone who has ever
studied the Great Depression knows that stocks were worth only 20% of
their asking price in the weeks leading up to the eventual stock market
collapse.

If you knew anything about stocks, you'd never even think about saying
they're an indicator of economic health. That is why we have "leading
economic indicators" like consumer confidence, durable goods orders, and
price indices.


--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
> where is unprecedented growth, if you look no one has jobs, but productivity
> is up because people know if they don't bust azz on the job they may not
> have one for a year. and your point is?? "Now what is it called when you
> do it" what are you saying here??

http://www.bls.gov/ces/home.htm

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
>
> Les are you stupid or just thick. if the avg. American has $19k in debt
> this is horrible for the economy if there is any kind of large down turn and
> banks call in their markers we will be in a recession.

You really have no clue about debt, currency, or any of that do you?

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
> Also the huge debt the country holds
> (how many trillions with much of owned by foreigners, we are the biggest
> debtor nation now) and the massive trade imbalance (another "debt")
>
> great point Andy, look how the stock market took a dive when there was talk
> about a rate hike. Les I thought we had a robust economy.

You are so unbelievably clueless.

A "trade imbalance" is not a debt.


--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
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teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
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is forbidden.

[thelizman]

nmm wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2004 2:21 AM, Les > wrote:
>
> What would you do with no job or healthcare, all because you said the
> wrong thing to the wrong person?
>
> You concievably could lose everything if you wre to get seriously il, and
> terminated from your job. Are you going to count on some "Faith Based
> Initiative" to help you out?

And a giant ****ing meteor might come out of the sky and kill us all!

If you're such a ****up that you a) can't get a job where you don't work
for assholes, b) are so irresponsible that you can't hold your mouth
long enough to hold a job, or c) don't have the skills to justify being
an arrogant prick to your coworkers, then thats your problem.
Personally, I could care less about poorly adjusted fools like you.
Someones got to wash my car, clean my pool, and walk my dogs.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
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[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:
>
> why are the numbers snipped because you can't refute them?? they are
> horrible why is the consumer debt at an all time high if the job market was
> good this wouldn't be a problem. get your head out the sand
>
> well car sells are down for the year. retail is still not strong past
> wally-world. like always the rich get richer, and the poor get nothing.

Ghee, you're a moron. Consumer debt is a GOOD THING! That consumer debt
is from people BUYING things, like cars, washing machines, furniture,
homes, etc. Hell, an average consumer debt of $19k is nothing! Your
average home is $100,000! So people get stuff, and they do it by
borrowing money from someone else, who they pay back - with interest.
That interest is extra money for the bank. Even making loans creates new
money for banks, because the money loaned stays on its balance sheets as
cash reserves until it's taken out.

You really need to get a clue on how the banking system and monetary
policy work in a market economy.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
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[thelizman]

Tha Ghee wrote:

> you probably don't know
> anyone that's unemployed.

According to you, millions of people are unemployed. How likely is it
that he doesn't? Hey, I'm unemployed! So what!

> and I doubt you know for sure if were going to
> have a depression or not.

And a moron like you does? Sorry charlie, nobody can predict recessions
because of cyclical changes in the economy and because of hte time it
takes to gather economic statistics.

> like I posted before retail sales are down.

According to this article, not only are retail sales up this week (by
..3%), but they are up over last week which was "unusually strong".

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040511-110814-2832r.htm

> I
> have no agenda,

I'm calling bull****.

> I'm just trying to get my million. I see it all just look
> around Cincy, which is very republican and to say the job market here is
> bleak is being kind.

That's because your part of ohio is heavily leveraged in manufacturing
jobs. Ohio has always had a ****ty economy, and most people leave Ohio
for other areas.

--
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"It's about the music, stupid"

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[thelizman]

nmm wrote:
>
> Well Les are you just going to take that?

There's nothing for him to take.


--
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[nmm]

On Wed, May 12, 2004 3:57 PM, thelizman >
wrote:
>nmm wrote:
>> On Sun, May 9, 2004 2:21 AM, Les >
>wrote:
>>
>> What would you do with no job or healthcare, all because you said the
>> wrong thing to the wrong person?
>>
>> You concievably could lose everything if you wre to get seriously il,
and
>> terminated from your job. Are you going to count on some "Faith Based
>> Initiative" to help you out?
>
>And a giant ****ing meteor might come out of the sky and kill us all!

Hopefully you first.

>
>If you're such a ****up that you a) can't get a job where you don't work
>for assholes, b) are so irresponsible that you can't hold your mouth
>long enough to hold a job, or c) don't have the skills to justify being
>an arrogant prick to your coworkers, then thats your problem.
>Personally, I could care less about poorly adjusted fools like you.
>Someones got to wash my car, clean my pool, and walk my dogs.

Well Les are you just going to take that?

[Les]

"nmm" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, May 12, 2004 3:57 PM, thelizman >
> wrote:
> >nmm wrote:
> >> On Sun, May 9, 2004 2:21 AM, Les >
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> What would you do with no job or healthcare, all because you said the
> >> wrong thing to the wrong person?
> >>
> >> You concievably could lose everything if you wre to get seriously il,
> and
> >> terminated from your job. Are you going to count on some "Faith Based
> >> Initiative" to help you out?
> >
> >And a giant ****ing meteor might come out of the sky and kill us all!
>
> Hopefully you first.
>
> >
> >If you're such a ****up that you a) can't get a job where you don't work
> >for assholes, b) are so irresponsible that you can't hold your mouth
> >long enough to hold a job, or c) don't have the skills to justify being
> >an arrogant prick to your coworkers, then thats your problem.
> >Personally, I could care less about poorly adjusted fools like you.
> >Someones got to wash my car, clean my pool, and walk my dogs.
>
> Well Les are you just going to take that?
>
>

I've never lost a job for any of those reasons. I agree with the assesment.
BTW I responded to your post, do you have anything to add? Maybe what the
hell your point was?

Les

[nmm]

On Wed, May 12, 2004 6:08 PM, thelizman >
wrote:
>nmm wrote:
>>
>> Well Les are you just going to take that?
>
>There's nothing for him to take.
>

again your reading comprehension , or ability to follow a conversation
isn't working so well there Andrew.

Les was the one who said his job depended on "Not saying anything that
would **** off his employers"

You added your diatribe to that.

NOt up to it anymore are ya.

Don't lose your head.

[thelizman]

nmm wrote:
>
> Les was the one who said his job depended on "Not saying anything that
> would **** off his employers"

And your point? There's nothing for him to "take". That statement was
directed at no-skill morons like you. Now bag my groceries, bitch.

--
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teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
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[nmm]

On Thu, May 13, 2004 5:42 AM, thelizman >
wrote:
>nmm wrote:
>>
>> Les was the one who said his job depended on "Not saying anything that
>> would **** off his employers"
>
>And your point? There's nothing for him to "take". That statement was
>directed at no-skill morons like you. Now bag my groceries, bitch.

No it was directed at whoever has a job that they can get fired from by
****ing off the boss.

Since you are unemployed and unemployable, it won't effect you Andrew
Krause / Disabled Vet (Ha)

Maybe you'd be employable if you learnt how to read a little better. Though
in NC literacy isn't so highly prized.

So did they find Elmer's Head yet?

[Les]

"nmm" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, May 13, 2004 5:42 AM, thelizman >
> wrote:
> >nmm wrote:
> >>
> >> Les was the one who said his job depended on "Not saying anything
that
> >> would **** off his employers"
> >
> >And your point? There's nothing for him to "take". That statement was
> >directed at no-skill morons like you. Now bag my groceries, bitch.
>
> No it was directed at whoever has a job that they can get fired from by
> ****ing off the boss.

So, it was directed at basically every American citizen who holds a job? In
virtually any business there is always the possibility of saying something,
that should have been kept to oneself, that could ultimately result in the
loss of a job. Telling management to **** off would likely yeild bad
results, yet we have all thought about saying it.
Now, I on the other hand, am not a moron and know what to keep to myself.
Therefore I do not have anything to worry about from that perspective.

So did you have a chance to figure out what the hell you were talking about
earlier? I am still waiting for you to respond. Maybe I should ask you the
same questions.

What would you do if you lost your job or healthcare? I am betting ride the
unemployment train as long as possible.

Les

[nmm]

On Thu, May 13, 2004 11:00 PM, Les >
wrote:
>
>What would you do if you lost your job or healthcare? I am betting ride
the
>unemployment train as long as possible.
>
>Les
>

I'm Canadian, can't lose my healthcare; it's enshrined in our constitution.

Can't go on the dole either (never have), as i'm a "contracter" so jobs
get done and start up all the time.

[thelizman]

nmm wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2004 5:42 AM, thelizman >
>
> No it was directed at whoever has a job that they can get fired from by
> ****ing off the boss.

Right...no talent low-skilled workers. People who have more than a high
school diploma/GED/equivalency don't sweat the "getting fired because I
made the boss angry" scenario. They sweat the "oh my god my job has been
outsourced" scenario.

Outsourced. Look it up.

--
thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

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"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

[John Durbin]

So you think educated people shouldn't have to worry about ****ing off
the boss?

JD

thelizman wrote:

> nmm wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 13, 2004 5:42 AM, thelizman
>> >
>>
>> No it was directed at whoever has a job that they can get fired from by
>> ****ing off the boss.
>
>
> Right...no talent low-skilled workers. People who have more than a
> high school diploma/GED/equivalency don't sweat the "getting fired
> because I made the boss angry" scenario. They sweat the "oh my god my
> job has been outsourced" scenario.
>
> Outsourced. Look it up.
>

[nmm]

On Wed, May 12, 2004 4:11 PM, thelizman >
wrote:
>According to you, millions of people are unemployed. How likely is it
>that he doesn't? Hey, I'm unemployed!



Why doesn't this suprise me?