Small Sub for Car Need Advice

[trader]

Hi,

Thanks for all the help in my previous posts. I have a new dilemma. I
want to add a sub to my Nissan Maxima. I need trunk space so I want to
install a 10" or 12" sub in the smallest enclosure possible and still
get great sound. I want to build my own box since I like to do wood
working (it'l cost me more but who cares) and keep it to about 1cu
foot. I'm not sure what sub drivers are quality. Can anyone suggest a
good 10" or 12" driver? A friend suggested an 10" Infinity Kappa.
The only thing I can find wrong with this sub is that the efficency is
only 87db.
Key Features:

=BB 10" subwoofer with slight cosmetic flaw
=BB Magnesium Metal Matrix (M3D) cone with 3" voice coil
=BB large-roll butyl-rubber surround
=BB massive cast-aluminum basket with Variable Q removable inserts
=BB suitable for free-air use (handles up to 200 watts in free-air
mode)
=BB recommended power range: 75-400 watts RMS
=BB peak power handling: 1,600 watts
=BB frequency response: 25-400 Hz
=BB sensitivity: 87 dB
=BB top mount depth: 6-1/2"
=BB sealed box volume: 0.3-1.0 cu. ft.
=BB ported box volume: 1.25-2.50 cu. ft.
=BB Recommended Q-Logic Box Type: 1, 2, 3
=BB warranty: 3 years

[MOSFET]

I'm afraid I'm not going to answer your question because I hate those kind
of "which is best" questions.

But, I HAVE built a sub box in a '97 Nissan Maxima SE and I can give you
some advice. I built a 3 cubic foot sealed box for two Soundstream SPL12
subs. Each 12" sub sat in it's own 1.5 cubic foot box. I built it with the
subs facing the back seats and the bass was then vented through that hole
above the back-seat armrest (it's for ski poles or something). There was
actually quite a bit of trunk space left when I was done as the Maxima trunk
is very large.

OK, here is the advice part: it took me about a month to build this box as
it PERFECTLY fit the contours of the trunk (to maximize the remaining trunk
space), and I had to take the back part of the car apart just to get it in.
The problem was, I really wasn't happy with the amount of bass I was
getting. I had MASSIVE cancellation effects. I know this because when I was
listening to the bass and I opened my trunk, the bass doubled! I wasn't
about to rip it out and do it all over again (my wife told me this), but in
all my subsequent subwoofer installs, I have the subs facing the back of the
car.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.

MOSFET

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

In article . com>,
trader > wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Thanks for all the help in my previous posts. I have a new dilemma. I
>want to add a sub to my Nissan Maxima. I need trunk space so I want to
>install a 10" or 12" sub in the smallest enclosure possible and still
>get great sound. I want to build my own box since I like to do wood

I recommend the Hsu. They used to be a lot more popular here than they
are these days but they really are great subs. They're meant for a
small to medium sized sealed enclosure.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky

[bobb]

On 2 Mar 2005 18:45:28 -0800, "trader" > wrote:

>Can anyone suggest a
>good 10" or 12" driver?


So what's the problem?

Everybody is gonna suggest his favorite.

U already know how big u want it be, u already know u want max
efficiency, u already know what amp is going to drive it, u already
now how much u wanna spend, just plug eveything into a spreadsheet and
pick what comes up on top - the scientific method.

[MZ]

> I'm afraid I'm not going to answer your question because I hate those kind
> of "which is best" questions.
>
> But, I HAVE built a sub box in a '97 Nissan Maxima SE and I can give you
> some advice. I built a 3 cubic foot sealed box for two Soundstream SPL12
> subs. Each 12" sub sat in it's own 1.5 cubic foot box. I built it with
> the
> subs facing the back seats and the bass was then vented through that hole
> above the back-seat armrest (it's for ski poles or something). There was
> actually quite a bit of trunk space left when I was done as the Maxima
> trunk
> is very large.
>
> OK, here is the advice part: it took me about a month to build this box as
> it PERFECTLY fit the contours of the trunk (to maximize the remaining
> trunk
> space), and I had to take the back part of the car apart just to get it
> in.
> The problem was, I really wasn't happy with the amount of bass I was
> getting. I had MASSIVE cancellation effects. I know this because when I
> was
> listening to the bass and I opened my trunk, the bass doubled! I wasn't
> about to rip it out and do it all over again (my wife told me this), but
> in
> all my subsequent subwoofer installs, I have the subs facing the back of
> the
> car.
>
> Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.


Your experiences are quite common. Some in here remember about a year ago
when I got really busy with work (and the snow wouldn't go away either), so
I attempted to find a local installer to put the stuff in my new-to-me car.
I was pretty frustrated with the ignorance of most installers. One of the
common claims they made was that a single sub would be ineffective in my
car. Sure, part of this was a sales pitch so that I'd ditch my JL 12 and
buy 2 or 3 subs from them. But their reasoning went like this: "we
installed a sub in the stock location (rear deck) in the same kind of car
you have and it wasn't very good. When we put two in the trunk, it sounded
great." So they attributed the difference to the addition of a second sub,
when in reality the difference could be accounted for simply by the
location/aiming of the subwoofer. Subsequently, I had to end up putting the
gear in myself because 9 of the 10 shops in my area said it wasn't possible
to install the gear I had, and the last shop did it but screwed up
(http://mdz.no-ip.org/audio/install/speakers.html). The single sub I put in
was rear-facing and was more than loud enough, contrary to the first shop's
claims.

In addition, it's probably important to point out that it's not necessarily
the aiming that's the issue, but rather the location of the cone in the
trunk. Eddie explains it well here:
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html . So, in light of this
information, in many cases you can get around the cancellation by
side-firing (my current project) from the back of the trunk - behind one of
the wheel wells, for example.

[MOSFET]

So, in light of this
> information, in many cases you can get around the cancellation by
> side-firing (my current project) from the back of the trunk - behind one
of
> the wheel wells, for example.
>
Absolutely, Mark. I think the best advice in the world when it comes to
subs is to experiment if possible. In my case, I spent a HUGE amount of
effort building a sub-box without knowing how it would sound.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Yikes!

Mark, I took a look at those pictures and I can't believe that work was done
by a profesional. I mean, all that crap touching the surrounds? I hope
that shop is now out of business, they give installers a bad name!

MOSFET

[trader]

I think I have it narrowed to the Infinity 12.1D It got great reviews
and fits my specs. The only thing is that it has a metal cone. I'm
use to Poly or paper. The efficency on the sub is 96db.
http://www.infinitysystems.com/caraudio/product.aspx?ProdId='KAPPA+PERFECT12.1D'&Ser=KPE&Cat=SUB

I may get the DVC and then wired the sub for 2ohm and drive it with a
Bridged Orion amp. Does this sound right?

[Tony F]

What year is your Maxima, Trader?

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP (Just gettin' started)

[trader]

Its a 1999 Tony. I've owned several and wouldn't own any other car in
its price range.

[trader]

Tony. You have a kick butt system. I read several excellent reviews
on your Eclipse HU.

So far I bought a Kenwood Excelon HU KDC-X678, a PG Xenon amp, a Orion
Cobal Blue Amp to drive the sub Hopefully) a pair of Polk 6 x 9's. I
still need a pair of speakers for the front doors. In my Pathfinder I
installed Polk Momo's 6 x 9's (in the front doors) but I had to do a
lot of cutting. Since I am going to have a sub I was thinking of
getting 6 3/4" speakers for the frot doors and mounting the 6 x 9's in
the trunk. I was wondering what your thoughts are on using 6 3/4"
speakers in the front doors instead of 6 x 9's. Also, I'm wondering if
I will get any mid bass out of the 6 x 9's (installed by back window)
since they will not be in a box? Thanks

[MZ]

> The efficency on the sub is 96db.

("in car @ 40Hz")

They're getting a big help from cabin gain here by measuring in-car. Go to
the boxes and parameters page on that site and take a look at the
sensitivity graph on the first page. It appears they've also got the
low-pass filter engaged for the test.

I wouldn't put too much stock into that rating.

[MOSFET]

> They're getting a big help from cabin gain here by measuring in-car.

More proof that you cannot trust efficiency numbers, Mark?

MOSFET

[Tony F]

Trader,

I would recommend you save your money and go all-out and buy a JL Audio
Stealthbox for your Maxima. The make one for the 95-99 generation.
Although I'm sure it's quite pricey, you'll love the sound. It mounts in
the rear corner of the trunk on the passenger side I believe and takes up
very little space. Of course, it's not your only option...I'm just making a
suggestion.

I would definitley go with some 6-3/4" speakers up front and put the 6x9s in
back. I've had some decent results with a few vehicles with speakers in the
rear deck. Of course, some people don't even LIKE rear speakers. Dont'
worry about getting bass from the 6x9s...that's what the sub is for. If
you're looking for midbass, then spend your efforts doing a quality install
on the front door speakers, and also the 6x9s. I don't care for midbass
coming from the back (as many do), plus your rear deck is probably going to
rattle...Maximas are known for that.

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP (Just gettin' started)

[MZ]

>> They're getting a big help from cabin gain here by measuring in-car.
>
> More proof that you cannot trust efficiency numbers, Mark?

I suppose. Just look at that graph. There's about a 10dB difference (or
more) at 40Hz when measuring in and out of cars. So it's unfair to compare
two subs where the methodology differs in that respect.

Bells went off when I read him post "96dB", because that's an outrageously
high number.

[MOSFET]

"Tony F" > wrote in message
...
, plus your rear deck is probably going to
> rattle...Maximas are known for that.
>
> Tony

Oh, man! I had SOOOO much trouble with the rear deck rattling in my Maxima.
I was ALWAYS taking it off and putting a little Dynamat here and there.

My Maxima came with the Bose system, which I immediately yanked out (still
have it, if anyone wants to give me a few bucks for it, it's yours). I used
those tweeter pods in the A-pillars for my Boston Pro series tweeters. I
would have prefered to mount the tweeters closer to the midbass speakers,
but what the heck, the A-pillar pods were already there and they looked
good. I used no rear fill as this (the empty holes)also helped vent bass
into the cabin.

MOSFET

[trader]

I wonder if spraying the underbelly of the rear deck with spray on
undercoating would help. I use the stuff for my sub enclosures and it
does a great job of dampening vibrations. In Maximas there is also a
bar that is used for the trunk (it runs under the rear deck speakers)
and that rattles without sub so I can imagine what I'm in store for.
I'm hoping the 6 3/4 speakers will produce enough midbass.

[trader]

I built it with the subs facing the back seats and the bass was then
vented through that hole
above the back-seat armrest (it's for ski poles or something). There
was
actually quite a bit of trunk space left when I was done as the Maxima
trunk
is very large.

This was my plan minus one driver. I wanted one 12" driver is a 1 cu.
ft. Enclosure.


OK, here is the advice part: it took me about a month to build this box
as
it PERFECTLY fit the contours of the trunk (to maximize the remaining
trunk
space), and I had to take the back part of the car apart just to get it
in.
The problem was, I really wasn't happy with the amount of bass I was
getting. I had MASSIVE cancellation effects. I know this because when
I was
listening to the bass and I opened my trunk, the bass doubled! I
wasn't
about to rip it out and do it all over again (my wife told me this),
but in
all my subsequent subwoofer installs, I have the subs facing the back
of the
car.

Interesting. In my home system I turned the sub towards the wall to
increase the BASS output and to reduce high frequencies from my
soundstage. If you were positioning the subs out the trap door on the
Maxima I would think it would increase SPL vs. keeping the flap closed
and pointing the driver to the back of the car. My sub will be movable
so I can play with this. I also wonder if the sub will effect the
performace of the 6 X 9 deck speakers. Have you played with turning the
sub on and off and listening for changes in the SQ of the 6 x 9's?


Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.

[T]

bobb wrote:
> On 2 Mar 2005 18:45:28 -0800, "trader" > wrote:
>
>
>>Can anyone suggest a
>>good 10" or 12" driver?
>
>
>
> So what's the problem?
>
> Everybody is gonna suggest his favorite.
>
> U already know how big u want it be, u already know u want max
> efficiency, u already know what amp is going to drive it, u already
> now how much u wanna spend, just plug eveything into a spreadsheet and
> pick what comes up on top - the scientific method.
>


U are missing a few 'Why's & 'Oh's.

8D <--- big cheesy grin.


TBerk