ABX test between amplifiers

[Clyde Slick]

"Fella" > wrote in message
...
>
> We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd player
> attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca connections
> going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The densen and the sf
> giving speaker connections to the abx comparator box giving further
> connections (in between the speakers) to the box that the friend used to
> level match (also levelled channels, but it wasn't necessary with the both
> amps).. Lotsa connections here... "Hmmm.. I thought".
>
> Anyways, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of it" hands me the
> comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC music and
> press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen then" says I.
> "You really are smart" says the other friend.
>
> I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY the
> same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat distant and
> uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch sources. "I am
> panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says, "listen for a while,
> relax".
>
> I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint difference as
> I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more harshness in the
> midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to listen to the same part
> of the same song as amps are swithced and same song same part AGAIN as I
> press "X".. Two remotes, shaky fingers, stress.. I give up with the same
> place bul**** and start doind A-X only during the course of a given song
> (I put away the CD remote altogether), and giving my answers accordingly..
> towards the end that is (turns out the only right answer streaks I had was
> then)..
>
> After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room. "I'm
> done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
> couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.
>
> Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of frustration
> we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the 3000+ euro SF amp.
> We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no difference! Same dry, colorless
> music coming out of both A and B. The friend is insulted (the SF owner)
> goes all red in the face. Takes the test, knows half and half...
>
> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc, kill
> the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear reader.
> Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps are like
> day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another ABX test
> again.
>
> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will say,
> surely. I don't care.
>

DBT provides several means by which even a naive listener can be
brainwashed to fail in recognizing profound differences.

A. Krueger 2005



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[Fella]

We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd player
attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca
connections going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The densen
and the sf giving speaker connections to the abx comparator box giving
further connections (in between the speakers) to the box that the friend
used to level match (also levelled channels, but it wasn't necessary
with the both amps).. Lotsa connections here... "Hmmm.. I thought".

Anyways, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of it" hands me the
comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC music
and press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen then"
says I. "You really are smart" says the other friend.

I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY the
same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat distant
and uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch sources. "I
am panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says, "listen for a
while, relax".

I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint difference
as I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more harshness in the
midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to listen to the same
part of the same song as amps are swithced and same song same part AGAIN
as I press "X".. Two remotes, shaky fingers, stress.. I give up with
the same place bul**** and start doind A-X only during the course of a
given song (I put away the CD remote altogether), and giving my answers
accordingly.. towards the end that is (turns out the only right answer
streaks I had was then)..

After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room. "I'm
done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.

Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of frustration
we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the 3000+ euro SF
amp. We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no difference! Same dry,
colorless music coming out of both A and B. The friend is insulted (the
SF owner) goes all red in the face. Takes the test, knows half and half...

So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear
reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another
ABX test again.

NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
say, surely. I don't care.

[Arny Krueger]

"Clyde Slick" > wrote in message

> "Fella" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd
>> player attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca
>> connections going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The
>> densen and the sf giving speaker connections to the abx comparator
>> box giving further connections (in between the speakers) to the box
>> that the friend used to level match (also levelled channels, but it
>> wasn't necessary with the both amps).. Lotsa connections here...
>> "Hmmm.. I thought". Anyways, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of it"
>> hands me the
>> comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC
>> music and press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen
>> then" says I. "You really are smart" says the other friend.
>>
>> I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY
>> the same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat
>> distant and uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch
>> sources. "I am panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says,
>> "listen for a while, relax".
>>
>> I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint
>> difference as I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more
>> harshness in the midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to
>> listen to the same part of the same song as amps are swithced and
>> same song same part AGAIN as I press "X".. Two remotes, shaky
>> fingers, stress.. I give up with the same place bul**** and start
>> doind A-X only during the course of a given song (I put away the CD
>> remote altogether), and giving my answers accordingly.. towards the
>> end that is (turns out the only right answer streaks I had was
>> then).. After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room.
>> "I'm
>> done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
>> couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.
>>
>> Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of
>> frustration we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the
>> 3000+ euro SF amp. We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no
>> difference! Same dry, colorless music coming out of both A and B.
>> The friend is insulted (the SF owner) goes all red in the face.
>> Takes the test, knows half and half... So, to cut it short .. :) either
>> the ABX, all those connections,
>> etc, kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You
>> pick, dear reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real
>> world those amps are like day and night. I know that also that I'll
>> never take another ABX test again.
>>
>> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
>> say, surely. I don't care.
>>

> PCABX provides several means by which even a naive listener can be
> educated to listen reliably for subtle differences.>

> A. Krueger 2005

Agreed.

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Clyde Slick" > wrote in message
>
>> "Fella" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd
>>> player attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca
>>> connections going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The
>>> densen and the sf giving speaker connections to the abx comparator
>>> box giving further connections (in between the speakers) to the box
>>> that the friend used to level match (also levelled channels, but it
>>> wasn't necessary with the both amps).. Lotsa connections here...
>>> "Hmmm.. I thought". Anyways, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of
>>> it" hands me the
>>> comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC
>>> music and press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen
>>> then" says I. "You really are smart" says the other friend.
>>>
>>> I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY
>>> the same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat
>>> distant and uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch
>>> sources. "I am panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says,
>>> "listen for a while, relax".
>>>
>>> I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint
>>> difference as I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more
>>> harshness in the midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to
>>> listen to the same part of the same song as amps are swithced and
>>> same song same part AGAIN as I press "X".. Two remotes, shaky
>>> fingers, stress.. I give up with the same place bul**** and start
>>> doind A-X only during the course of a given song (I put away the CD
>>> remote altogether), and giving my answers accordingly.. towards the
>>> end that is (turns out the only right answer streaks I had was
>>> then).. After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room.
>>> "I'm
>>> done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
>>> couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.
>>>
>>> Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of
>>> frustration we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the
>>> 3000+ euro SF amp. We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no
>>> difference! Same dry, colorless music coming out of both A and B.
>>> The friend is insulted (the SF owner) goes all red in the face.
>>> Takes the test, knows half and half... So, to cut it short .. :) either
>>> the ABX, all those connections,
>>> etc, kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You
>>> pick, dear reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real
>>> world those amps are like day and night. I know that also that I'll
>>> never take another ABX test again.
>>>
>>> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
>>> say, surely. I don't care.
>>>
>
>> Arny Kreuger stole and plagiarized ABX 'teknology' from
>> others who actually 'did the work'.
>
>> A. Krueger 2005
>
> Agreed.
>
>



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[JBorg]

> Fella wrote
>
>
>
>
> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc, kill
> the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear reader.
> Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps are like day
> and night. I know that also that I'll never take another ABX test again.


It behooves me to add that recently, two of the most ardent proponent
of such hysterical listening test gave conflicting information on the
resulting outcome of their test at r.a.o.!


Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
capricious scrawl at rahe.

[Arny Krueger]

"JBorg" > wrote in message

>> Fella wrote

>> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections,
>> etc, kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You
>> pick, dear reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real
>> world those amps are like day and night. I know that also that I'll
>> never take another ABX test again.

This would be a good thing, because people tend to judge procedures by who
uses them. Having certain people use the ABX procedure might have been, at
one point long ago, been harmful to its progress and thereby the progress of
audio. At this time ABX is so overwhelmingly accepted among serious audio
people that one Borglet either way, means nothing.

> It behooves me to add that recently, two of the most ardent proponent
> of such hysterical listening test gave conflicting information on the
> resulting outcome of their test at r.a.o.!

This is either self-deception or just plain a lie. What actually happened is
that two people closely identified with ABX said the same thing in slightly
different words. Borglet for some reason has decided to claim that they are
in conflict.

> Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
> by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
> capricious scrawl at rahe.

ABX/DBT is so widely accepted that despite the partisan acts of the RAHE
moderators against ABX proponents, it is still widely promoted and
supported by RAHE participants who have a serious interest in audio.

[Eiron]

Fella wrote:

> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
> kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear
> reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
> are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another
> ABX test again.
>
> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
> say, surely. I don't care.


I applaud the fella for having the courage to come back here and admit
the results of his test.

--
Eiron.

[JBorg]

> Arny Krueger wrote
>> JBorg wrote
>
>
>
>> It behooves me to add that recently, two of the most ardent proponent
>> of such hysterical listening test gave conflicting information on the
>> resulting outcome of their test at r.a.o.!
>
> This is either self-deception or just plain a lie. What actually happened is
> that two people closely identified with ABX said the same thing in slightly
> different words. Borglet for some reason has decided to claim that they are
> in conflict.


Please prove it was self-deception or a lie.



>> Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
>> by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
>> capricious scrawl at rahe.
>
> ABX/DBT is so widely accepted that despite the partisan acts of the RAHE
> moderators against ABX proponents, it is still widely promoted and supported
> by RAHE participants who have a serious interest in audio.
>

"Fella" > wrote in message
...
>
> We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd player
> attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca connections
> going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The densen and the sf
> giving speaker connections to the abx comparator box giving further
> connections (in between the speakers) to the box that the friend used to
> level match (also levelled channels, but it wasn't necessary with the both
> amps).. Lotsa connections here... "Hmmm.. I thought".
>
> Anyways, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of it" hands me the
> comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC music and
> press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen then" says I.
> "You really are smart" says the other friend.
>
> I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY the
> same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat distant and
> uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch sources. "I am
> panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says, "listen for a while,
> relax".
>
> I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint difference as
> I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more harshness in the
> midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to listen to the same part
> of the same song as amps are swithced and same song same part AGAIN as I
> press "X".. Two remotes, shaky fingers, stress.. I give up with the same
> place bul**** and start doind A-X only during the course of a given song
> (I put away the CD remote altogether), and giving my answers accordingly..
> towards the end that is (turns out the only right answer streaks I had was
> then)..
>
> After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room. "I'm
> done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
> couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.
>
> Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of frustration
> we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the 3000+ euro SF amp.
> We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no difference! Same dry, colorless
> music coming out of both A and B. The friend is insulted (the SF owner)
> goes all red in the face. Takes the test, knows half and half...
>
> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc, kill
> the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear reader.
> Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps are like
> day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another ABX test
> again.

You got exactly the results I would expect you to get. (Your reaction to
those results is also what I would expect.) In short, nothing about this
test is at all surprising.

However, you're right about the "day and night" differences between the Azur
and the SF amplifiers. The difference is about 2680 euros.

Norm Strong

[Sander deWaal]

Fella > said:

>So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
>kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear
>reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
>are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another
>ABX test again.


Thanks for reporting.
This kind of corrobberates with my own thoughts about listening tests
vs. casual listening.


>NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
>say, surely. I don't care.


Enjoy your spare time :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> Fella > said:
>
>> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
>> kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick,
>> dear reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world
>> those amps are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never
>> take another ABX test again.
>
>
> Thanks for reporting.
> This kind of corrobberates with my own thoughts about listening tests
> vs. casual listening.

Just sitting here watching the blind mislead the blind, lost in their
ignorance and prejudices. (irony intended!).

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:

>>> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
>>> kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick,
>>> dear reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world
>>> those amps are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never
>>> take another ABX test again.

>> Thanks for reporting.
>> This kind of corrobborates with my own thoughts about listening tests
>> vs. casual listening.

>Just sitting here watching the blind mislead the blind, lost in their
>ignorance and prejudices. (irony intended!).


The blind misleading the blind, would that be double-blind? ;-)

(irony intended!)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Michael McKelvy]

"Fella" > wrote in message
...
>
> We were finally able to do the test: A sony ES type gigantic sacd player
> attached to an ABX comparator. From that box two separate rca connections
> going to the densen and the sonus faber musica. The densen and the sf
> giving speaker connections to the abx comparator box giving further
> connections (in between the speakers) to the box that the friend used to
> level match (also levelled channels, but it wasn't necessary with the both
> amps).. Lotsa connections here... "Hmmm.. I thought".
>
> Anyway, "here" the freind says "get a feeling of it" hands me the
> comparator remote and tells me how it works. We put on the BVSC music and
> press play. "B is SF" the freind explains "A is the densen then" says I.
> "You really are smart" says the other friend.
>
> I switch between amps.. NO difference. NOTHING! They sound EXACTLY the
> same. The *very same* dry, but EXQUISITELY detailed, somewhat distant and
> uninvolving music coming out of the dunlavys as I switch sources. "I am
> panicking" says I to the friend. "Don't" he says, "listen for a while,
> relax".
>
> I listen for some minutes. There *is* a slight, a very faint difference as
> I switch back and forth, more detail and a bit more harshness in the
> midrange of the SF. So I start the test. I try to listen to the same part
> of the same song as amps are swithced and same song same part AGAIN as I
> press "X".. Two remotes, shaky fingers, stress.. I give up with the same
> place bul**** and start doind A-X only during the course of a given song
> (I put away the CD remote altogether), and giving my answers accordingly..
> towards the end that is (turns out the only right answer streaks I had was
> then)..
>
> After a very stressfull 15 minutes, I kinda RUN out of the room. "I'm
> done" says I. We go over to the computer for the results: 15 tries (I
> couldn't even count the tries) and only 9 correct. Unaccaptable.
>
> Then the SF owner takes the test.. Much worse result. Out of frustration
> we put a 320 euro cambrdige audio azur amp against the 3000+ euro SF amp.
> We do some casual AB listening. AGAIN no difference! Same dry, colorless
> music coming out of both A and B. The friend is insulted (the SF owner)
> goes all red in the face. Takes the test, knows half and half...
>

You did fine up to here. Nice refreshing honesty.

> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc, kill
> the difference,

They don't and you can prove it by doing a comaprison without the box.

or yes, amps really do sound alike.

Bingo!

You pick, dear
> reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
> are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another ABX
> test again.
>
You just proved that in the real world they are the same except for the
excessive difference in price.

> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will say,
> surely. I don't care.
>
Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[JBorg]

> Arny Krueger wrote
>> JBorg wrote
>
>
>snip<
>
>
>> Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
>> by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
>> capricious scrawl at rahe.
>
>
>
> ABX/DBT is so widely accepted that despite the partisan acts of the RAHE
> moderators against ABX proponents, it is still widely promoted and supported
> by RAHE participants who have a serious interest in audio.



Among the manifestation to being one of the McMorons is that they
are not aware that they are one. They will struggle and fight to the
end because they are aware that they are.

[JBorg]

> Arny Krueger wrote
>> JBorg wrote
>
>
>snip<
>
>
>> Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
>> by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
>> capricious scrawl at rahe.
>
>
>
> ABX/DBT is so widely accepted that despite the partisan acts of the RAHE
> moderators against ABX proponents, it is still widely promoted and supported
> by RAHE participants who have a serious interest in audio.




The Obs and the Dress in holy matrimony.

A self-serving collusion that continues to give.
With tender-hearted parasol and nipple to
nurture and feed. It's a sanctuary where time
is suspended at will.

[Howard Ferstler]

Fella wrote:

> So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
> kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear
> reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
> are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another
> ABX test again.
>
> NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
> say, surely. I don't care.

There was only one thing wrong with this comparison.

You guys should have compared a really cheap amp to one of
those exotics. What's more, the hookups to the cheap amp
should have been cheap wires.

That way, when you heard no differences you would have been
even more demoralized.

I think that it is a great day, indeed, when a tweako
becomes demoralized. The hobby gains some ground.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

JBorg wrote:

> Yes, abx/dbt is among the ghastliest audio fantasy ever concocted
> by these whimsical do-gooders particularly if one is to read their
> capricious scrawl at rahe.

Looks like you are becoming a bit demoralized, too. That
little audio god of your having some problems? Are you
having some doubts?

Good.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

JBorg wrote:

> The Obs and the Dress in holy matrimony.
>
> A self-serving collusion that continues to give.
> With tender-hearted parasol and nipple to
> nurture and feed. It's a sanctuary where time
> is suspended at will.

Yep, you are losing - and you know it.

Howard Ferstler

[Howard Ferstler]

Eiron wrote:
>
> Fella wrote:
>
> > So, to cut it short .. :) either the ABX, all those connections, etc,
> > kill the difference, or yes, amps really do sound alike. You pick, dear
> > reader. Me? I think its irrelevant. I know in the real world those amps
> > are like day and night. I know that also that I'll never take another
> > ABX test again.
> >
> > NOTE: This'll be my last post here. "Good riddance" some of you will
> > say, surely. I don't care.
>
> I applaud the fella for having the courage to come back here and admit
> the results of his test.

His comments also dramatize just how much audio tweakos need
a mystical belief system to get along with the hobby. Shake
that belief system up a bit and the participant becomes
demoralized.

That an adult would be that way regarding a hobby that
involves his supposed mystical hearing ability and his
enshrined amps and wires is in itself pretty mysterious.

Howard Ferstler

[[email protected]]

The tweako at least has a hobby. The buyers of Wal-Mart audio do not.
Tey just charge it on credit and throw it out when it dies.

The true hobbyist who builds new gear or repairs the old at least has
the satisfaction of accomplishment. It used to be even more fun when we
could find old Stereo 70s at yard sales for $10 and make a pretty
decent forty watt monoblock out of them (and use the Dyna circuit board
for a poor man's version of John Entwhistle's gold-record-shooting).

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
oups.com

> The tweako at least has a hobby.

Such as it is.

> The buyers of Wal-Mart audio do not.

Sure they do - they can have a hobby composed of listening to recordings as
opposted to figuratively jousting with windmills that have blades composed
of misapprehensions,

> They just charge it on credit and throw it out when it dies.

.... and spends the time in between listening to music.

[[email protected]]

I sometimes wonder if anyone who hasn't smelled a good booger on the
700 degree tip of a Weller WTCPT should be allowed to enjoy music in
the home.