View Full Version : DIY Class B Solid State Power Amp
Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
wrote:
> Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
> Linear 500 clone?
They would be the same reasons why there aren't any kits around
to build a Yugo clone.
dave weil
January 2nd 05, 01:35 AM
On 1 Jan 2005 15:57:45 -0800, wrote:
>Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
>Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
>Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
>cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
>don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
Couldn't you just get an arc welder cheaply at the local pawn shop?
Karl Uppiano
January 2nd 05, 07:36 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
> Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
> Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
> cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
> don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
Well, it's not exactly a kit, but it looks kind of nice:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
Looks like he'll sell you empty circuit boards.
Damon Hill
January 2nd 05, 08:26 AM
"Karl Uppiano" > wrote in news:lwNBd.22113
$rL3.15425@trnddc03:
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
>> Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
>> Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
>> cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
>> don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
>
> Well, it's not exactly a kit, but it looks kind of nice:
> http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
> Looks like he'll sell you empty circuit boards.
Been using this design for years; works very well and
sounds great. Bit of a challenge if you've not built something
from scratch (but some people like that challenge).
But a Flame Non-Linear kit? That's carrying nostaligia too far
unless the design's been improved. Might make more sense to put
the Leach board into the Phase Linear chassis.
--Damon
Sander deWaal
January 2nd 05, 11:08 AM
said:
>Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
>Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
>Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
>cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
>don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
http://www.decdun.fsnet.co.uk/gainclone.html
http://www.drtube.com/audioamp.htm
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampdept.htm
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
The Phase Linear's problems have all been found and fixed, which is
not something that can be said of most other designs. Extensive use of
these by pro contractors has purified the breed, so to speak.
There may be better designs, but I doubt the ones presented here are.
Sander deWaal
January 2nd 05, 10:46 PM
said:
>There may be better designs, but I doubt the ones presented here are.
The links I presented are of relative simplicity, which is almost
always a prerequisite in DIY.
Of course it is possible to build a 300 watt solid state amp yourself,
but is it practical?
If you persist in your quest, have a look here:
http://www.astro.uu.se/~marcus/private/schm250small.jpg
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Karl Uppiano
January 2nd 05, 10:54 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The Phase Linear's problems have all been found and fixed, which is
> not something that can be said of most other designs. Extensive use of
> these by pro contractors has purified the breed, so to speak.
Analog power amps aren't that complicated. How much of a shakedown do they
need?
> There may be better designs, but I doubt the ones presented here are.
The Leach amplifier has been out there for a long time. I haven't heard any
complaints...
The Gaincard/Gainclone isn't even a project-it's just providing power
and signal to an IC.
Excessive simplicity is a bane in terms of ensuring educational value.
People have to learn to solder well and use proper troubleshooting
techniques. Aside from their cow-vulva flapping sonics, single ended
no-feedback tube amps are just too simple to be of any value as
construction projects. Another pet peeve of mine is the regenerative
receiver, which people build because it requires no alignment.
Alignment is good!
If these projcts were for schoolchildren or the genuinely economically
disadvantaged, it might be different, but most people who build
electronics for a hobby are affluent, college educated people. They
need discipline and to be forced to think the task through in a
rational manner. Not mollycoddling.
Arny Krueger
January 3rd 05, 02:35 AM
wrote:
> Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
> Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
> Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a
few
> cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but
I
> don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
The leading enemy of kit amplifiers is the low cost of good amplifiers
that are sold fully built and tested for less than the parts cost of
any amp with comparable power.
Robert Morein
January 3rd 05, 03:43 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Would there be any good reasons to not do a kit to build, say a Phase
> Linear 500 clone? I know there are other designs out there (I hear
> Slone's sucks, but I don't know) and there are patents protecting a few
> cool things, such as Mcintosh's PowerGuard, for a few years yet, but I
> don't think any PL patents are under 34 years old.
>
Be sure to include a halogen fire extinguisher system triggered by a thermal
switch.
Build it in a sealed box, line with asbestos, and vent to the outside.
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
January 3rd 05, 06:18 AM
> If these projcts were for schoolchildren or the genuinely economically
> disadvantaged, it might be different, but most people who build
> electronics for a hobby are affluent, college educated people. They
> need discipline and to be forced to think the task through in a
> rational manner. Not mollycoddling.
>
I dare say that college educated people aren't going into electronics much
these days, as computer programming pays much better. Hence the shortage of
qualified broadcast engineers these days.
--
Best Regards,
Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
Arny Krueger
January 3rd 05, 04:26 PM
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
> I dare say that college educated people aren't going into electronics
much
> these days, as computer programming pays much better. Hence the
shortage of
> qualified broadcast engineers these days.
That's the choice I made about 30 years ago. Since then much of audio
has descended into pseudo-science.
Sander deWaal
January 3rd 05, 05:19 PM
said:
>The Gaincard/Gainclone isn't even a project-it's just providing power
>and signal to an IC.
Excuse me for trying to help you out.
>Excessive simplicity is a bane in terms of ensuring educational value.
>People have to learn to solder well and use proper troubleshooting
>techniques. Aside from their cow-vulva flapping sonics, single ended
>no-feedback tube amps are just too simple to be of any value as
>construction projects. Another pet peeve of mine is the regenerative
>receiver, which people build because it requires no alignment.
>Alignment is good!
Excuse me for trying to help you out.
>If these projcts were for schoolchildren or the genuinely economically
>disadvantaged, it might be different, but most people who build
>electronics for a hobby are affluent, college educated people. They
>need discipline and to be forced to think the task through in a
>rational manner. Not mollycoddling.
Excuse me for trying to help you out, mr. college-educated puz.
Now **** off and do your own googling for a schematic that suits your
highly-educated needs.
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
>
> >If these projcts were for schoolchildren or the genuinely
economically
> >disadvantaged, it might be different, but most people who build
> >electronics for a hobby are affluent, college educated people. They
> >need discipline and to be forced to think the task through in a
> >rational manner. Not mollycoddling.
>
> Excuse me for trying to help you out, mr. college-educated puz.
>
> Now **** off and do your own googling for a schematic that suits your
> highly-educated needs.
I think you missed my point a little, although I didn't mean to offend
you.
If one wants to build a Phase Linear (just as an example) the
schematic, which is the least of the problem, is commonly available.
Heatsinking and mech layout and the chassis are the issues, unless you
are a competent sheetmetal fabricator.
My point was just that the PL is complicated enough to make actual
troubleshooting and repair skills almost certainly necessary to getting
one from bare boards to operational. By using a reasonable amount of
test fixturing and a systematic approach to startup this can be done
without burning up a lot of silicon.
Most people on this group are middle-class, professional, or skilled
labor types, (in America at least) the "scruffy muffler mechanic type"
(no offense to highly trained exhaust technicians...) isn't interested
in this hobby for the most part, (now here's the key sentence) but yet
many of these same people wholly lack practical hands on skills
whatever. A person who has a CS/EE degree but couldn't fix a transistor
radio is exactly typical, colleges have little hands on training.
Some are actually proud of this state of affairs.
I realize that some on this group are not native English speakers,
and/or in their country many more people go to vo-tech training than
four year degree programs that crank out large numbers of liberal
arts/business majors absolutely bereft of skills (which speaks well,
not ill, of those countries) so I ask their understanding of this
situation.
Thank you for bearing with me on this issue.
>
> >If these projcts were for schoolchildren or the genuinely
economically
> >disadvantaged, it might be different, but most people who build
> >electronics for a hobby are affluent, college educated people. They
> >need discipline and to be forced to think the task through in a
> >rational manner. Not mollycoddling.
>
> Excuse me for trying to help you out, mr. college-educated puz.
>
> Now **** off and do your own googling for a schematic that suits your
> highly-educated needs.
I think you missed my point a little, although I didn't mean to offend
you.
If one wants to build a Phase Linear (just as an example) the
schematic, which is the least of the problem, is commonly available.
Heatsinking and mech layout and the chassis are the issues, unless you
are a competent sheetmetal fabricator.
My point was just that the PL is complicated enough to make actual
troubleshooting and repair skills almost certainly necessary to getting
one from bare boards to operational. By using a reasonable amount of
test fixturing and a systematic approach to startup this can be done
without burning up a lot of silicon.
Most people on this group are middle-class, professional, or skilled
labor types, (in America at least) the "scruffy muffler mechanic type"
(no offense to highly trained exhaust technicians...) isn't interested
in this hobby for the most part, (now here's the key sentence) but yet
many of these same people wholly lack practical hands on skills
whatever. A person who has a CS/EE degree but couldn't fix a transistor
radio is exactly typical, colleges have little hands on training.
Some are actually proud of this state of affairs.
I realize that some on this group are not native English speakers,
and/or in their country many more people go to vo-tech training than
four year degree programs that crank out large numbers of liberal
arts/business majors absolutely bereft of skills (which speaks well,
not ill, of those countries) so I ask their understanding of this
situation.
Thank you for bearing with me on this issue.
I don't know that being a "broadcast engineer" or a "audio (i.e.
recording, sound reinforcement) engineer" is really being an engineer
in the sense of modern P.E. programs, indeed, I recall that both SBE
and Novell (wrt its "CNE" designation) ran into this very issue.
What I do know is that a lot of companies are looking to hire four
year EE grads to be glorified salespeople ("sales engineers") or
out-and-out technicians (the medical imaging firms are big here.) I
think that sucks, because someone who really is fit to be a design
engineer is probably going to be bored and frustrated whereas a lot of
excellent professional salespeople with good electronics knowledge but
an unrelated or no degree, or excellent technicians with (the
worthless....) EET or unrelated or no degrees are locked out.
As far as computer programming...what real programming talent is going
to want to spend their days writing Visual Basic bull****? The real
driving force behind the explosion of open source software is probably
the CS grads who are now employed out of industry and writing elegant
code in fascinating projects to keep their hand in. Same principle.
Arny Krueger
January 4th 05, 02:57 AM
wrote:
> If one wants to build a Phase Linear (just as an example) the
> schematic, which is the least of the problem, is commonly available.
Agreed.
> Heatsinking and mech layout and the chassis are the issues, unless
you
> are a competent sheetmetal fabricator.
They are IME one of the simpler parts of the problem.
> My point was just that the PL is complicated enough to make actual
> troubleshooting and repair skills almost certainly necessary to
getting
> one from bare boards to operational.
In the day of high powered SS power amp kits, people actually built
comparable amps with a fair probability of sucess. The Dyna 400, 416
and Heath AA-1640 come to mind.
> By using a reasonable amount of
> test fixturing and a systematic approach to startup this can be done
> without burning up a lot of silicon.
Focus on that systematic approach to startup.
> Most people on this group are middle-class, professional, or skilled
> labor types, (in America at least) the "scruffy muffler mechanic
type"
> (no offense to highly trained exhaust technicians...) isn't
interested
> in this hobby for the most part, (now here's the key sentence) but
yet
> many of these same people wholly lack practical hands on skills
> whatever. A person who has a CS/EE degree but couldn't fix a
transistor
> radio is exactly typical, colleges have little hands on training.
Let's face it, nobody much fixes commodity transistor radios these
days.
> Some are actually proud of this state of affairs.
Or, they see it as an inevitable consequence of technological progress.
>> (Arny)
> Most people on this group are middle-class, professional, or skilled
> labor types, (in America at least) the "scruffy muffler mechanic
type"
> (no offense to highly trained exhaust technicians...) isn't
interested
> in this hobby for the most part, (now here's the key sentence) but
yet
> many of these same people wholly lack practical hands on skills
> whatever. A person who has a CS/EE degree but couldn't fix a
transistor
> radio is exactly typical, colleges have little hands on training.
Let's face it, nobody much fixes commodity transistor radios these
days.
> Some are actually proud of this state of affairs.
Or, they see it as an inevitable consequence of technological progress.
Eventually it bites you in the ass although it does contribute to short
term efficiency. I think a good economic upheval (a la the '29 crash)
every two generations would probably be a Good Thing.
Would Feynmann have thought to put the O-ring in the ice water if he
had been trained fifty years later?
Sander deWaal
January 4th 05, 02:10 PM
said:
>I think you missed my point a little, although I didn't mean to offend
>you.
Ok, I was a bit too harsh in my comments. My apologies.
>If one wants to build a Phase Linear (just as an example) the
>schematic, which is the least of the problem, is commonly available.
>Heatsinking and mech layout and the chassis are the issues, unless you
>are a competent sheetmetal fabricator.
Well, to be fair, I'm an EE, and audio is my hobby.
The schematic isn't the problem indeed, but it gets really interesting
when building the thing.
acquiring the materials, drilkling, have a chasis layout, getting the
ground paths right, it is all part of the fun of the hobby for me.
But strictly economical speaking, in this timeframe it is pretty
useless to build anything yourself.
I do so because of the fun and the learning part.
Buying a kit and assembling it isn't going to learn you much about hum
induction from supply leads, or ground loops, because everything is
neatly explained in the manual.
Building something from scratch as I usually do, is the best way to
learn things.
The added bonus is a working device after you're finished.
>My point was just that the PL is complicated enough to make actual
>troubleshooting and repair skills almost certainly necessary to getting
>one from bare boards to operational. By using a reasonable amount of
>test fixturing and a systematic approach to startup this can be done
>without burning up a lot of silicon.
But building one from a kit isn't going to get you the needed
knowledge to troubleshoot any problems.
>Most people on this group are middle-class, professional, or skilled
>labor types, (in America at least) the "scruffy muffler mechanic type"
>(no offense to highly trained exhaust technicians...) isn't interested
>in this hobby for the most part, (now here's the key sentence) but yet
>many of these same people wholly lack practical hands on skills
>whatever. A person who has a CS/EE degree but couldn't fix a transistor
>radio is exactly typical, colleges have little hands on training.
Indeed one could see that as a problem, but on the other hand, in the
industry there's virtually no need for them to develop those skills.
Modern technology calls for more theoretical understanding of
problems, not fixing transistor amplifiers (I know, I'm stretching it
a bit).
That's why I have audio as a hobby now, and applied hard-and software
as a profession.
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
January 5th 05, 09:42 AM
>
> In the day of high powered SS power amp kits, people actually built
> comparable amps with a fair probability of sucess. The Dyna 400, 416
> and Heath AA-1640 come to mind.
I've got a rack full of Hafler 500s that I assembled from kits, dirt cheap.
They've been terrific and have stood up to over 20 years of punishing use
and they continue to work great. The benefit of kits is that you can easily
repair and maintain them, and even modify them to improve their performance,
relatively easily.
--
Best Regards,
Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
R
January 9th 05, 05:40 AM
"Arny Krueger" > wrote in news:1104769598.517897.96930
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
>
>> I dare say that college educated people aren't going into electronics
> much
>> these days, as computer programming pays much better. Hence the
> shortage of
>> qualified broadcast engineers these days.
>
> That's the choice I made about 30 years ago. Since then much of audio
> has descended into pseudo-science.
>
>
Descended into pseudo-science?
I do believe that depends upon one's "circle of friends" so to speak.
While that is certainly true in the consumer marketplace, in the true
engineering end there is more true science than ever before.
r
--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
Mr. T
January 9th 05, 06:19 AM
"R" > wrote in message
. 1...
> Descended into pseudo-science?
> I do believe that depends upon one's "circle of friends" so to speak.
> While that is certainly true in the consumer marketplace, in the true
> engineering end there is more true science than ever before.
By a smaller number of people though.
The number of R&D engineers especially has dropped in most countries. Maybe
China is an exception.
MrT.
Arny Krueger
January 9th 05, 12:23 PM
"R" > wrote in message
. 1
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in
> news:1104769598.517897.96930 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
>>
>>> I dare say that college educated people aren't going into
>>> electronics much these days, as computer programming pays much
>>> better. Hence the shortage of qualified broadcast engineers these
>>> days.
>> That's the choice I made about 30 years ago. Since then much of audio
>> has descended into pseudo-science.
> Descended into pseudo-science?
Yeah, I get a little sick every time I see Monster Cable in Best Bur or
Circuit City. Didn't used to be so.
> I do believe that depends upon one's "circle of friends" so to speak.
IME Science is pretty much the same no matter who your friends are. ;-)
> While that is certainly true in the consumer marketplace, in the true
> engineering end there is more true science than ever before.
If so, why all the hullabaloo about SACD and DVD-A?
Arny Krueger
January 9th 05, 01:10 PM
"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> Robot said:
>
>> Descended into pseudo-science?
>> I do believe that depends upon one's "circle of friends" so to speak.
>> While that is certainly true in the consumer marketplace
>
> So you actually believe consumer electronics are designed and
> manufactured using "pseudo-science"?
I guess you never heard of marketing, Middius. Seems pretty strange that you
haven't eer heard of marketing but this is not among your strangest posts.
Clyde Slick
January 9th 05, 05:05 PM
"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
>
>
> I guess you never heard of marketing, Middius. Seems pretty strange that
> you haven't eer heard of marketing but this is not among your strangest
> posts.
Has anyone else eer heard that?
Clyde Slick
January 9th 05, 08:13 PM
"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Clyde Slick said:
>
>> > you haven't eer heard of marketing but this is not among your strangest
>
> You're a poet now? The gods must be smiling....
>
>> Has anyone else eer heard that?
>
> Mr. **** has apparently claimed to be the world's leading expert in
> marketing. I'm sure he has a plaque on his wall, right next to the ones
> for Greatest Living Orthographer, Super-Duper Kumpyootur Guy, and
> Legendary Audio Enjuhnear.
>
What about the best ashtray for Omni design award?
Clyde Slick wrote:
> "George M. Middius" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Clyde Slick said:
> >
> >> > you haven't eer heard of marketing but this is not among your
strangest
> >
> > You're a poet now? The gods must be smiling....
> >
> >> Has anyone else eer heard that?
> >
> > Mr. **** has apparently claimed to be the world's leading expert in
> > marketing. I'm sure he has a plaque on his wall, right next to the
ones
> > for Greatest Living Orthographer, Super-Duper Kumpyootur Guy, and
> > Legendary Audio Enjuhnear.
> >
> What about the best ashtray for Omni design award?
We don't really know that someone didn't have to jump in and fix that
for Arny.
We have Arny's own words on the subject of his excellence, he has never
excelled at anything. These moments of self-awareness in Arny are
refreshing. Too bad they are so few and far between.
Scott Wheeler
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