Vintage Amplifiers for Idiots

[D. Lemon]

Hi,

I would very much appreciate a minute of your time.



The sum of my knowledge of electrical safety basically amounts to knowing a
three-prong adapter on a two-prong plug doesn't ground an appliance, but
having caught the "vintage virus" recently, I went shopping on eBay for a
low-wattage guitar amp.



A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.



I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
the lives of my loved ones, myself included.



What troubles me is the idea of less-suspecting musicians buying into a
potentially lethal decision. Approaching a group of "tube-heads" for simple
safety advice is inviting derision, but conscientiously I must. Call it my
civic-duty or anal-retentiveness, but I will feel irresponsible if I don't.



Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?



This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
come to the conclusion that I better not get it.



Realizing it may be difficult to put yourself in an idiot's shoes (not that
you'd care to), below is my personal example to which I'm not asking
specific answers except as in regards to a bigger picture of more general
safety rules:



This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
to:

The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
"Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
that means it does not have a "death cap".

It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
way.

Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.

I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
using the following example:

"With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html





and run the ground to the ground lug, the black to the fuse (install a fuse
if not present) and white to the transformer. I am still unclear if adding
an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.



So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.



I'm hoping for a check-list kind of guide or rules set or possible scenarios
that could serve as a warning to others. A list of known problem amps and
designs or a link to such would be helpful.



If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.



If you've read this far then I thank you very much for your consideration.

Sincerely, Dan



Silvertone, Harmony, Sears, Wards, Valco, Supra, Heath, Bogen,

Gibson, Fender,

[Scott Dorsey]

D. Lemon > wrote:
>This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
>to:
>
>The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
>"Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
>that means it does not have a "death cap".

That is kind of wacky... the reason you use a tube lineup like that is so
you don't need a power transformer. The 50V and 35V filaments are intended
for series string applications so you can build gear (like table radios)
with hot chassis and no power transformer.

Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should see two,
one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to the speaker) and
one for the power (the primary of which goes to the power line). If you
see only one (and things that look like transformers but have only two wires
coming out are chokes and do not count), you have a hot chassis amp.

>It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
>way.

The isolation transformer is something that people add on as an aftermarket
retrofit, to isolate hot chassis amps. You do not need such a thing if you
have a power transformer. If you have a hot chassis design without a power
transformer, retrofitting one might be a good idea.

>I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
>using the following example:
>
>"With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
>the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
>get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
>though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html

That is a good idea on every product ever made, actually. But isolating
a hot chassis design is still a good idea.

>If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
>tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
>warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
>just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
>ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.

Look, just the crazy prices that this junk is fetching on Ebay is scary
enough....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

D. Lemon > wrote:
>This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
>to:
>
>The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
>"Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
>that means it does not have a "death cap".

That is kind of wacky... the reason you use a tube lineup like that is so
you don't need a power transformer. The 50V and 35V filaments are intended
for series string applications so you can build gear (like table radios)
with hot chassis and no power transformer.

Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should see two,
one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to the speaker) and
one for the power (the primary of which goes to the power line). If you
see only one (and things that look like transformers but have only two wires
coming out are chokes and do not count), you have a hot chassis amp.

>It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
>way.

The isolation transformer is something that people add on as an aftermarket
retrofit, to isolate hot chassis amps. You do not need such a thing if you
have a power transformer. If you have a hot chassis design without a power
transformer, retrofitting one might be a good idea.

>I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
>using the following example:
>
>"With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
>the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
>get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
>though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html

That is a good idea on every product ever made, actually. But isolating
a hot chassis design is still a good idea.

>If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
>tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
>warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
>just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
>ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.

Look, just the crazy prices that this junk is fetching on Ebay is scary
enough....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Fred Gilham]

> Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should
> see two, one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to
> the speaker) and one for the power (the primary of which goes to the
> power line). If you see only one (and things that look like
> transformers but have only two wires coming out are chokes and do
> not count), you have a hot chassis amp.

If his amp has the same circuit as the Silvertone 1430, which has the
same tube lineup, then he will have 2 transformers. One of them will
be the output transformer; the other is a *filament* transformer for
the 12AU6.

This circuit is kind of goofy. If you try to convert it to 3-wire,
the most reasonable way to do so would be to hook the hot wire to the
fuse and the neutral to the switch. This means that even when the
power switch is off, several parts of the circuit will still be live
relative to the chassis. Note that this would *not* be the case with
a 2-wire cord, though with a 2-wire cord parts of the circuit would
still be hot relative to your cold water pipe. If I were putting in a
3-wire cord, I'd put the hot wire (black) on the switch, then hook the
other end of the switch to the fuse. I'd put the neutral wire on the
B-.

> > "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or
> > de-solder the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and
> > switch. While you're at it, get rid of the cap from the switch to
> > chassis ground (leave that ground lug, though!)"
> > http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html

The problem with doing that on this circuit is that you will then
route part of the signal path through your power cord, your electrical
service entrance, and back to the neutral wire. That seems like a
recipe for noise. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would leave the capacitor
in, after making sure that

1) Either it is a U. L. Listed capacitor specifically made for this
job (they did make them), or
2) (Not as good) You use a 1000V disc ceramic and heat-shrink a piece
of tubing around it so that it is well insulated.

At least that's what I would do --- and I'd never give the thing away
or sell it for fear of liability.

--
Fred Gilham || "If I thought there was anything at
all in your arguments, I should have to be not only a theist, but an
Episcopalian to boot," he said, after one interchange, reckoning that
since Episcopalianism was, in his book, that than which nothing could
be worse, this was an effective reductio ad absurdum. - J. R. Lucas

[Fred Gilham]

> Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should
> see two, one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to
> the speaker) and one for the power (the primary of which goes to the
> power line). If you see only one (and things that look like
> transformers but have only two wires coming out are chokes and do
> not count), you have a hot chassis amp.

If his amp has the same circuit as the Silvertone 1430, which has the
same tube lineup, then he will have 2 transformers. One of them will
be the output transformer; the other is a *filament* transformer for
the 12AU6.

This circuit is kind of goofy. If you try to convert it to 3-wire,
the most reasonable way to do so would be to hook the hot wire to the
fuse and the neutral to the switch. This means that even when the
power switch is off, several parts of the circuit will still be live
relative to the chassis. Note that this would *not* be the case with
a 2-wire cord, though with a 2-wire cord parts of the circuit would
still be hot relative to your cold water pipe. If I were putting in a
3-wire cord, I'd put the hot wire (black) on the switch, then hook the
other end of the switch to the fuse. I'd put the neutral wire on the
B-.

> > "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or
> > de-solder the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and
> > switch. While you're at it, get rid of the cap from the switch to
> > chassis ground (leave that ground lug, though!)"
> > http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html

The problem with doing that on this circuit is that you will then
route part of the signal path through your power cord, your electrical
service entrance, and back to the neutral wire. That seems like a
recipe for noise. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would leave the capacitor
in, after making sure that

1) Either it is a U. L. Listed capacitor specifically made for this
job (they did make them), or
2) (Not as good) You use a 1000V disc ceramic and heat-shrink a piece
of tubing around it so that it is well insulated.

At least that's what I would do --- and I'd never give the thing away
or sell it for fear of liability.

--
Fred Gilham || "If I thought there was anything at
all in your arguments, I should have to be not only a theist, but an
Episcopalian to boot," he said, after one interchange, reckoning that
since Episcopalianism was, in his book, that than which nothing could
be worse, this was an effective reductio ad absurdum. - J. R. Lucas

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> the lives of my loved ones, myself included.

Lots of people used amplifiers like this and stayed alive. There is
nothing inherently unsafe about not having a safety ground as long as
the amplifier is properly designed and there isn't enough current
leakage to the chassis so that something you might touch (like a
guitar plugged into the amplifier, which connects it to the chassis)
becomes hot with respect to the earth. This means that the amplifier
must not have any defective capacitors - a safe bet if it's just had a
"cap job" but may be worth checking out if it's truly in
vintage/virgin condition.

> This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> come to the conclusion that I better not get it.

Chicken! (though I really don't know if the amplifier is worth a hoot)

> This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> to:
>
> The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
> It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> way.

The power transformer is essentially an isolation transformer, keeping
both sides of the power line isolated from the chassis. Assuming the
wiring or the transformer insulation hasn't deteriorated a bunch, it
should be basically safe. Some amplifiers put a small capacitor
between one side of the AC line and the chassis (the polarity switch
flipped the plug wires, but at the power line frequency, the capacitor
(if it's good) is essentially an open circuit. This may be the "death
cap" you refer to.

I suppose that there may have been some cheap transformerless
amplifiers built along the same lines as transformerless AC/DC radios
of the '50's, but that's not on your radar.

> Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.

Sure. If the "ground" capacitor is shorted. But that's what we call
"broken."

> I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug

Yes, that would be a solution. But it would then no longer be
"vintage." However other than this, it would do no harm and would
improve the potential electrical safety.

> I am still unclear if adding
> an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.

No, it isn't, unless the amplifier's power transformer or some other
component is allowing current to flow to the chassis when it's not
supposed to. We also call this "broken." However it's the reason why a
"balanced power" transformer (a fancy isolation transformer) often
reduces the hum in a crummy olde amplifier.

> So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.

If I were you, I'd get one that hasn't been buggered and then make
your own decision as to whether you want to change the power cord or
not. You aren't going to change the world, particularly not the eBay
world, where you can never be sure of what you're getting.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> the lives of my loved ones, myself included.

Lots of people used amplifiers like this and stayed alive. There is
nothing inherently unsafe about not having a safety ground as long as
the amplifier is properly designed and there isn't enough current
leakage to the chassis so that something you might touch (like a
guitar plugged into the amplifier, which connects it to the chassis)
becomes hot with respect to the earth. This means that the amplifier
must not have any defective capacitors - a safe bet if it's just had a
"cap job" but may be worth checking out if it's truly in
vintage/virgin condition.

> This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> come to the conclusion that I better not get it.

Chicken! (though I really don't know if the amplifier is worth a hoot)

> This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> to:
>
> The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
> It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> way.

The power transformer is essentially an isolation transformer, keeping
both sides of the power line isolated from the chassis. Assuming the
wiring or the transformer insulation hasn't deteriorated a bunch, it
should be basically safe. Some amplifiers put a small capacitor
between one side of the AC line and the chassis (the polarity switch
flipped the plug wires, but at the power line frequency, the capacitor
(if it's good) is essentially an open circuit. This may be the "death
cap" you refer to.

I suppose that there may have been some cheap transformerless
amplifiers built along the same lines as transformerless AC/DC radios
of the '50's, but that's not on your radar.

> Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.

Sure. If the "ground" capacitor is shorted. But that's what we call
"broken."

> I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug

Yes, that would be a solution. But it would then no longer be
"vintage." However other than this, it would do no harm and would
improve the potential electrical safety.

> I am still unclear if adding
> an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.

No, it isn't, unless the amplifier's power transformer or some other
component is allowing current to flow to the chassis when it's not
supposed to. We also call this "broken." However it's the reason why a
"balanced power" transformer (a fancy isolation transformer) often
reduces the hum in a crummy olde amplifier.

> So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.

If I were you, I'd get one that hasn't been buggered and then make
your own decision as to whether you want to change the power cord or
not. You aren't going to change the world, particularly not the eBay
world, where you can never be sure of what you're getting.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Karl Uppiano]

Here's a different approach:

Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and electrical
box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box. Plug
your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in its
"vintage" condition.

Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI lets
you test it first.

[Karl Uppiano]

Here's a different approach:

Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and electrical
box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box. Plug
your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in its
"vintage" condition.

Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI lets
you test it first.

[Karl Uppiano]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote in message
news:cGxnd.830$Nh1.377@trnddc09...
> Here's a different approach:
>
> Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
> electrical box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the
> electrical box. Plug your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the
> GFCI. The GFCI will protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to
> leave your amp in its "vintage" condition.
>
> Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
> locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
> outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI lets
> you test it first.

Ha! They make these things:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11580/cid/3017

[Karl Uppiano]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote in message
news:cGxnd.830$Nh1.377@trnddc09...
> Here's a different approach:
>
> Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
> electrical box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the
> electrical box. Plug your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the
> GFCI. The GFCI will protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to
> leave your amp in its "vintage" condition.
>
> Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
> locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
> outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI lets
> you test it first.

Ha! They make these things:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11580/cid/3017

[Arny Krueger]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote in message
news:cGxnd.830$Nh1.377@trnddc09
> Here's a different approach:
>
> Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
> electrical box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the
> electrical box. Plug your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into
> the GFCI. The GFCI will protect you from unsafe leakage, while
> allowing you to leave your amp in its "vintage" condition.
>
> Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
> locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
> outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI
> lets you test it first.

The good news is that one can buy GFCI-protected extension cords,
ready-built.

http://doityourself.com/store/5861414.htm

http://store.watergardenweb.com/gfcitriptapw.html

and GFCI outlet adaptors

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/dajo/adplug3wirgf.html

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16524

[Arny Krueger]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote in message
news:cGxnd.830$Nh1.377@trnddc09
> Here's a different approach:
>
> Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
> electrical box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the
> electrical box. Plug your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into
> the GFCI. The GFCI will protect you from unsafe leakage, while
> allowing you to leave your amp in its "vintage" condition.
>
> Just be sure to test your GFCI frequently, especially when you change
> locations (in case you're plugged into a mis-wired outlet). Mis-wired
> outlets can be dangerous with or without GFCI, but at least the GFCI
> lets you test it first.

The good news is that one can buy GFCI-protected extension cords,
ready-built.

http://doityourself.com/store/5861414.htm

http://store.watergardenweb.com/gfcitriptapw.html

and GFCI outlet adaptors

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/dajo/adplug3wirgf.html

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16524

[D. Lemon]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> Lots of people used amplifiers like this and stayed alive. There is
> nothing inherently unsafe about not having a safety ground as long as
> the amplifier is properly designed

One

> and there isn't enough current
> leakage to the chassis so that something you might touch (like a
> guitar plugged into the amplifier, which connects it to the chassis)
> becomes hot with respect to the earth.

Two

> must not have any defective capacitors - a safe bet if it's just had a
> "cap job" but may be worth checking out if it's truly in
> vintage/virgin condition.

Three - I'm getting twitchy...

> Chicken!

Yes

> I suppose that there may have been some cheap transformerless
> amplifiers built along the same lines as transformerless AC/DC radios
> of the '50's, but that's not on your radar.

Good, I feel better for the guy who just bought it...

> If I were you, I'd get one that hasn't been buggered and then make
> your own decision as to whether you want to change the power cord or
> not.

I bought Jason's "Champ" http://boozhoundlabs.com/champ/

> You aren't going to change the world, particularly not the eBay
> world, where you can never be sure of what you're getting.

Mike, thanks for responding, I have a lot of respect for you.
But, I AM going to change the world, my Mom says so.
However, in the meantime, maybe someone will benefit from this...

Thanks very much for all responses. Sincerely, Dan

[D. Lemon]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> Lots of people used amplifiers like this and stayed alive. There is
> nothing inherently unsafe about not having a safety ground as long as
> the amplifier is properly designed

One

> and there isn't enough current
> leakage to the chassis so that something you might touch (like a
> guitar plugged into the amplifier, which connects it to the chassis)
> becomes hot with respect to the earth.

Two

> must not have any defective capacitors - a safe bet if it's just had a
> "cap job" but may be worth checking out if it's truly in
> vintage/virgin condition.

Three - I'm getting twitchy...

> Chicken!

Yes

> I suppose that there may have been some cheap transformerless
> amplifiers built along the same lines as transformerless AC/DC radios
> of the '50's, but that's not on your radar.

Good, I feel better for the guy who just bought it...

> If I were you, I'd get one that hasn't been buggered and then make
> your own decision as to whether you want to change the power cord or
> not.

I bought Jason's "Champ" http://boozhoundlabs.com/champ/

> You aren't going to change the world, particularly not the eBay
> world, where you can never be sure of what you're getting.

Mike, thanks for responding, I have a lot of respect for you.
But, I AM going to change the world, my Mom says so.
However, in the meantime, maybe someone will benefit from this...

Thanks very much for all responses. Sincerely, Dan

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>
>Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and electrical
>box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box. Plug
>your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
>protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in its
>"vintage" condition.

On these amplifiers, the GFCI will pop instantly as soon as you plug a
guitar in. On the metal-cased amplifiers, the GFCI will pop as soon as you
put it on the floor.

The GFCI is a wonderful thing because it shuts off a device that has unsafe
leakage. BUT, it shuts down a device with leakage levels that were considered
quite normal for consumer electronics back in the fifties.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>
>Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and electrical
>box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box. Plug
>your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
>protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in its
>"vintage" condition.

On these amplifiers, the GFCI will pop instantly as soon as you plug a
guitar in. On the metal-cased amplifiers, the GFCI will pop as soon as you
put it on the floor.

The GFCI is a wonderful thing because it shuts off a device that has unsafe
leakage. BUT, it shuts down a device with leakage levels that were considered
quite normal for consumer electronics back in the fifties.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[play-on]

As a guitarist and tube amp fan, I avoid amps that use tubes that are
not common. I think you'll be happier in the long run with amps that
use 12AX7, 6V6, EL84, etc etc.

Al

On 19 Nov 2004 17:20:53 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>D. Lemon > wrote:
>>This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
>>to:
>>
>>The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
>>"Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
>>that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
>That is kind of wacky... the reason you use a tube lineup like that is so
>you don't need a power transformer. The 50V and 35V filaments are intended
>for series string applications so you can build gear (like table radios)
>with hot chassis and no power transformer.
>
>Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should see two,
>one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to the speaker) and
>one for the power (the primary of which goes to the power line). If you
>see only one (and things that look like transformers but have only two wires
>coming out are chokes and do not count), you have a hot chassis amp.
>
>>It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
>>way.
>
>The isolation transformer is something that people add on as an aftermarket
>retrofit, to isolate hot chassis amps. You do not need such a thing if you
>have a power transformer. If you have a hot chassis design without a power
>transformer, retrofitting one might be a good idea.
>
>>I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
>>using the following example:
>>
>>"With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
>>the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
>>get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
>>though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
>
>That is a good idea on every product ever made, actually. But isolating
>a hot chassis design is still a good idea.
>
>>If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
>>tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
>>warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
>>just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
>>ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
>
>Look, just the crazy prices that this junk is fetching on Ebay is scary
>enough....
>--scott

[play-on]

As a guitarist and tube amp fan, I avoid amps that use tubes that are
not common. I think you'll be happier in the long run with amps that
use 12AX7, 6V6, EL84, etc etc.

Al

On 19 Nov 2004 17:20:53 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>D. Lemon > wrote:
>>This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
>>to:
>>
>>The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
>>"Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
>>that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
>That is kind of wacky... the reason you use a tube lineup like that is so
>you don't need a power transformer. The 50V and 35V filaments are intended
>for series string applications so you can build gear (like table radios)
>with hot chassis and no power transformer.
>
>Look at the chassis. How many transformers do you see? You should see two,
>one for the audio output (the secondary of which goes to the speaker) and
>one for the power (the primary of which goes to the power line). If you
>see only one (and things that look like transformers but have only two wires
>coming out are chokes and do not count), you have a hot chassis amp.
>
>>It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
>>way.
>
>The isolation transformer is something that people add on as an aftermarket
>retrofit, to isolate hot chassis amps. You do not need such a thing if you
>have a power transformer. If you have a hot chassis design without a power
>transformer, retrofitting one might be a good idea.
>
>>I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
>>using the following example:
>>
>>"With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
>>the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
>>get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
>>though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
>
>That is a good idea on every product ever made, actually. But isolating
>a hot chassis design is still a good idea.
>
>>If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
>>tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
>>warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
>>just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
>>ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
>
>Look, just the crazy prices that this junk is fetching on Ebay is scary
>enough....
>--scott

[Doug]

If you are buying a vintage amplifier for collection value that is one
thing. If you are buying for playing value that is another.

If you are worried about the amps safety, that means you are going to
play the amp. I would suggest you take it to an amp tech and tell him
to check it out safety-wise. It is fairly simple to put a three prong
plug on an amp, although I don't remember us getting shocked by the
old two prongs. But three prong is safer.

I am not sure there is really a good reason to buy an old amp for
"tone" sake. There is a plethero of quality amps out there, designs
have improved and workmanship is better than ever. But if you have
your heart set on an old Silverface then go ahead and get one. Just
take it to an amp tech (preferably before buying if the seller will
let you, probably won't).

You might want to buy from a guitar store, many carry older, throughly
checked out amps that will aleviate some of your concerns.

"D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> I would very much appreciate a minute of your time.
>
>
>
> The sum of my knowledge of electrical safety basically amounts to knowing a
> three-prong adapter on a two-prong plug doesn't ground an appliance, but
> having caught the "vintage virus" recently, I went shopping on eBay for a
> low-wattage guitar amp.
>
>
>
> A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
> tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.
>
>
>
> I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> the lives of my loved ones, myself included.
>
>
>
> What troubles me is the idea of less-suspecting musicians buying into a
> potentially lethal decision. Approaching a group of "tube-heads" for simple
> safety advice is inviting derision, but conscientiously I must. Call it my
> civic-duty or anal-retentiveness, but I will feel irresponsible if I don't.
>
>
>
> Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
>
>
>
> This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> come to the conclusion that I better not get it.
>
>
>
> Realizing it may be difficult to put yourself in an idiot's shoes (not that
> you'd care to), below is my personal example to which I'm not asking
> specific answers except as in regards to a bigger picture of more general
> safety rules:
>
>
>
> This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> to:
>
> The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
> It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> way.
>
> Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.
>
> I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
> using the following example:
>
> "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
> the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
> get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
> though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
>
>
>
>
>
> and run the ground to the ground lug, the black to the fuse (install a fuse
> if not present) and white to the transformer. I am still unclear if adding
> an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.
>
>
>
> So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.
>
>
>
> I'm hoping for a check-list kind of guide or rules set or possible scenarios
> that could serve as a warning to others. A list of known problem amps and
> designs or a link to such would be helpful.
>
>
>
> If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
> tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
> warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
> just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
> ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
>
>
>
> If you've read this far then I thank you very much for your consideration.
>
> Sincerely, Dan
>
>
>
> Silvertone, Harmony, Sears, Wards, Valco, Supra, Heath, Bogen,
>
> Gibson, Fender,

[Doug]

If you are buying a vintage amplifier for collection value that is one
thing. If you are buying for playing value that is another.

If you are worried about the amps safety, that means you are going to
play the amp. I would suggest you take it to an amp tech and tell him
to check it out safety-wise. It is fairly simple to put a three prong
plug on an amp, although I don't remember us getting shocked by the
old two prongs. But three prong is safer.

I am not sure there is really a good reason to buy an old amp for
"tone" sake. There is a plethero of quality amps out there, designs
have improved and workmanship is better than ever. But if you have
your heart set on an old Silverface then go ahead and get one. Just
take it to an amp tech (preferably before buying if the seller will
let you, probably won't).

You might want to buy from a guitar store, many carry older, throughly
checked out amps that will aleviate some of your concerns.

"D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> I would very much appreciate a minute of your time.
>
>
>
> The sum of my knowledge of electrical safety basically amounts to knowing a
> three-prong adapter on a two-prong plug doesn't ground an appliance, but
> having caught the "vintage virus" recently, I went shopping on eBay for a
> low-wattage guitar amp.
>
>
>
> A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
> tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.
>
>
>
> I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> the lives of my loved ones, myself included.
>
>
>
> What troubles me is the idea of less-suspecting musicians buying into a
> potentially lethal decision. Approaching a group of "tube-heads" for simple
> safety advice is inviting derision, but conscientiously I must. Call it my
> civic-duty or anal-retentiveness, but I will feel irresponsible if I don't.
>
>
>
> Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
>
>
>
> This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> come to the conclusion that I better not get it.
>
>
>
> Realizing it may be difficult to put yourself in an idiot's shoes (not that
> you'd care to), below is my personal example to which I'm not asking
> specific answers except as in regards to a bigger picture of more general
> safety rules:
>
>
>
> This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> to:
>
> The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> that means it does not have a "death cap".
>
> It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> way.
>
> Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.
>
> I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
> using the following example:
>
> "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
> the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
> get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
> though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
>
>
>
>
>
> and run the ground to the ground lug, the black to the fuse (install a fuse
> if not present) and white to the transformer. I am still unclear if adding
> an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.
>
>
>
> So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.
>
>
>
> I'm hoping for a check-list kind of guide or rules set or possible scenarios
> that could serve as a warning to others. A list of known problem amps and
> designs or a link to such would be helpful.
>
>
>
> If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
> tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
> warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
> just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
> ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
>
>
>
> If you've read this far then I thank you very much for your consideration.
>
> Sincerely, Dan
>
>
>
> Silvertone, Harmony, Sears, Wards, Valco, Supra, Heath, Bogen,
>
> Gibson, Fender,

[Karl Uppiano]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>>
>>Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
>>electrical
>>box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box.
>>Plug
>>your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
>>protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in
>>its
>>"vintage" condition.
>
> On these amplifiers, the GFCI will pop instantly as soon as you plug a
> guitar in. On the metal-cased amplifiers, the GFCI will pop as soon as
> you
> put it on the floor.

On insulated floors like wood, carpet, rubber, etc.? Not even worth a try?
If it pops, turn the plug over. Capacitive coupling into thin air at 60Hz >
5mA seems rather unlikely.

> The GFCI is a wonderful thing because it shuts off a device that has
> unsafe
> leakage. BUT, it shuts down a device with leakage levels that were
> considered
> quite normal for consumer electronics back in the fifties.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Karl Uppiano]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>>
>>Go the hardware store and buy a GFCI outlet, three wire cord and
>>electrical
>>box. Wire up the cord to the GFCI and enclose it in the electrical box.
>>Plug
>>your GFCI into the wall, and plug the amp into the GFCI. The GFCI will
>>protect you from unsafe leakage, while allowing you to leave your amp in
>>its
>>"vintage" condition.
>
> On these amplifiers, the GFCI will pop instantly as soon as you plug a
> guitar in. On the metal-cased amplifiers, the GFCI will pop as soon as
> you
> put it on the floor.

On insulated floors like wood, carpet, rubber, etc.? Not even worth a try?
If it pops, turn the plug over. Capacitive coupling into thin air at 60Hz >
5mA seems rather unlikely.

> The GFCI is a wonderful thing because it shuts off a device that has
> unsafe
> leakage. BUT, it shuts down a device with leakage levels that were
> considered
> quite normal for consumer electronics back in the fifties.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

play-on <playonATcomcast.net> wrote:
>As a guitarist and tube amp fan, I avoid amps that use tubes that are
>not common. I think you'll be happier in the long run with amps that
>use 12AX7, 6V6, EL84, etc etc.

Not common? If it's used in AA5 table radios, it's one of the most common
tubes around.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

play-on <playonATcomcast.net> wrote:
>As a guitarist and tube amp fan, I avoid amps that use tubes that are
>not common. I think you'll be happier in the long run with amps that
>use 12AX7, 6V6, EL84, etc etc.

Not common? If it's used in AA5 table radios, it's one of the most common
tubes around.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[chetatkinsdiet]

Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
Wasn't it an Acoustic amp that killed the guy from Uriah Heep?
Anyway....you missed a good one on that little Silvertone. Those are
great sounding bedroom and studio amps. Funky little circuits, yes,
but they sound great.
later,
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
Wasn't it an Acoustic amp that killed the guy from Uriah Heep?
Anyway....you missed a good one on that little Silvertone. Those are
great sounding bedroom and studio amps. Funky little circuits, yes,
but they sound great.
later,
m

[agent86]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

Famous last words?

[agent86]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

Famous last words?

[Karl Uppiano]

>> Don't worry
>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> Famous last words?

Lots of people used these amps. Some got buzzed. Very few died. We have a
whole different idea of product liability and danger since the lawyers got
involved. I don't think they're helping society one little bit.

However, the technical solution is quite simple, really. You buy an
isolation transformer
(http://www.tripplite.com/products/conditioners/transformers.cfm) or a GFCI
and plug the amp into one of those. Someone else on this thread said that a
GFCI might be too sensitive (too safe!) for this application. I think that
depends on the amplifier design and its current state of repair, and the
environment it's being used in. It's inexpensive, so It doesn't hurt to try.
An isolation transformer is significantly more expensive, but it would be
safe and reliable.

[Karl Uppiano]

>> Don't worry
>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> Famous last words?

Lots of people used these amps. Some got buzzed. Very few died. We have a
whole different idea of product liability and danger since the lawyers got
involved. I don't think they're helping society one little bit.

However, the technical solution is quite simple, really. You buy an
isolation transformer
(http://www.tripplite.com/products/conditioners/transformers.cfm) or a GFCI
and plug the amp into one of those. Someone else on this thread said that a
GFCI might be too sensitive (too safe!) for this application. I think that
depends on the amplifier design and its current state of repair, and the
environment it's being used in. It's inexpensive, so It doesn't hurt to try.
An isolation transformer is significantly more expensive, but it would be
safe and reliable.

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
> Wasn't it an Acoustic amp that killed the guy from Uriah Heep?
> Anyway....you missed a good one on that little Silvertone. Those are
> great sounding bedroom and studio amps. Funky little circuits, yes,
> but they sound great.
> later,
> m

A hot chassis has *no* relationship to the output power of the amplifier.

Touching one is *exactly* the same as grabbing a bare wire connected
to the AC line. If you're grounded, you'll get the **** shocked out of
you,
whether the amp is 1 watt or 10,000. You might die from it.

*You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice
your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech
stuff to the people who know it.

Lord Valve
Expert

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
> Wasn't it an Acoustic amp that killed the guy from Uriah Heep?
> Anyway....you missed a good one on that little Silvertone. Those are
> great sounding bedroom and studio amps. Funky little circuits, yes,
> but they sound great.
> later,
> m

A hot chassis has *no* relationship to the output power of the amplifier.

Touching one is *exactly* the same as grabbing a bare wire connected
to the AC line. If you're grounded, you'll get the **** shocked out of
you,
whether the amp is 1 watt or 10,000. You might die from it.

*You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice
your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech
stuff to the people who know it.

Lord Valve
Expert

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>>> Don't worry
>>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>>
>> Famous last words?
>
>Lots of people used these amps. Some got buzzed. Very few died. We have a
>whole different idea of product liability and danger since the lawyers got
>involved. I don't think they're helping society one little bit.

The few that died would tend to argue with you.

That said, today stage setups tend to be a lot more complex and there are
a lot more things that need to be integrated together. Bringing a hot chassis
guitar amp up is just making for more nightmares for the PA guy and the stage
electrician.

>However, the technical solution is quite simple, really. You buy an
>isolation transformer
>(http://www.tripplite.com/products/conditioners/transformers.cfm) or a GFCI
>and plug the amp into one of those. Someone else on this thread said that a
>GFCI might be too sensitive (too safe!) for this application. I think that
>depends on the amplifier design and its current state of repair, and the
>environment it's being used in. It's inexpensive, so It doesn't hurt to try.
>An isolation transformer is significantly more expensive, but it would be
>safe and reliable.

Actually, smaller isolation transformers can be had for pretty cheap if you
don't want the nice NEMA box with the plugs on it. It's not difficult to
mount one of them inside an existing amplifier, add a three prong plug, and
convert a hot-chassis amp to a safe amp with an isolated and grounded chassis.
This is a very common thing for your neighborhood amp tech to do.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>>> Don't worry
>>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>>
>> Famous last words?
>
>Lots of people used these amps. Some got buzzed. Very few died. We have a
>whole different idea of product liability and danger since the lawyers got
>involved. I don't think they're helping society one little bit.

The few that died would tend to argue with you.

That said, today stage setups tend to be a lot more complex and there are
a lot more things that need to be integrated together. Bringing a hot chassis
guitar amp up is just making for more nightmares for the PA guy and the stage
electrician.

>However, the technical solution is quite simple, really. You buy an
>isolation transformer
>(http://www.tripplite.com/products/conditioners/transformers.cfm) or a GFCI
>and plug the amp into one of those. Someone else on this thread said that a
>GFCI might be too sensitive (too safe!) for this application. I think that
>depends on the amplifier design and its current state of repair, and the
>environment it's being used in. It's inexpensive, so It doesn't hurt to try.
>An isolation transformer is significantly more expensive, but it would be
>safe and reliable.

Actually, smaller isolation transformers can be had for pretty cheap if you
don't want the nice NEMA box with the plugs on it. It's not difficult to
mount one of them inside an existing amplifier, add a three prong plug, and
convert a hot-chassis amp to a safe amp with an isolated and grounded chassis.
This is a very common thing for your neighborhood amp tech to do.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JoeT]

"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
...
> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

This was tongue in cheek right? You do know the audio output wattage of an
amplifier is in no way related to the risk of being electrocuted by the AC
going into the amp from the outlet right?

If not, be afraid, be very afraid... lol

[JoeT]

"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
...
> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

This was tongue in cheek right? You do know the audio output wattage of an
amplifier is in no way related to the risk of being electrocuted by the AC
going into the amp from the outlet right?

If not, be afraid, be very afraid... lol

[Richard Crowley]

"JoeT" <noway@today> wrote in message
...
>
> "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
>> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> This was tongue in cheek right? You do know the audio output wattage of an
> amplifier is in no way related to the risk of being electrocuted by the AC
> going into the amp from the outlet right?
>
> If not, be afraid, be very afraid... lol

It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

[Richard Crowley]

"JoeT" <noway@today> wrote in message
...
>
> "chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this. You
>> want to get a little low wattage tube amp....get one. Don't worry
>> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
>> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> This was tongue in cheek right? You do know the audio output wattage of an
> amplifier is in no way related to the risk of being electrocuted by the AC
> going into the amp from the outlet right?
>
> If not, be afraid, be very afraid... lol

It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this.

I agree.

> Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

When it comes to a shorted capacitor making the chassis hot with
respect to AC ground, a 3 watt amp will indeed give you the same
"punch" as a large, high powered one.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Man, you are putting way, way, way too much thought into this.

I agree.

> Don't worry
> about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.

When it comes to a shorted capacitor making the chassis hot with
respect to AC ground, a 3 watt amp will indeed give you the same
"punch" as a large, high powered one.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
a leak in a brake line either.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
a leak in a brake line either.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[bulldog]

Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.

I mean put a wind screen on your mic. (Nothin like being bit right on
the lip) If your left hand is on the guitar strings and you touch the
chassis with your right hand and get a good jump start, well, you wont
do that again will ya? I think I'll keep my fingers on the plastic
knobs. (they're plastic for a reason)

Basically, don't F with fire if you don't want to get burned. And
especially, don't let you kids play with old tube amps.

By the way the only guitar amp I've ever seen with only one
transformer is a SilverTone amp-in-a-case design. I forget the actual
tube compliment, but basically consisted of a rectifier, a preamp
tube, and an output tube. This only works because the three filiment
voltages added up to 120 volts (50+50+20 (or 30) and all the tubes
were capable of running off 120 Volts DC.

Anyway, my advice is to not buy equipment you are afraid of, no matter
if it has 2 prongs, 3 prongs, a GFCI, a fuse, or creates zero gravity
and a stable worm hole.

If it scares you, buy modern tube equipment.

Bulldog


\

(Doug) wrote in message >...
> If you are buying a vintage amplifier for collection value that is one
> thing. If you are buying for playing value that is another.
>
> If you are worried about the amps safety, that means you are going to
> play the amp. I would suggest you take it to an amp tech and tell him
> to check it out safety-wise. It is fairly simple to put a three prong
> plug on an amp, although I don't remember us getting shocked by the
> old two prongs. But three prong is safer.
>
> I am not sure there is really a good reason to buy an old amp for
> "tone" sake. There is a plethero of quality amps out there, designs
> have improved and workmanship is better than ever. But if you have
> your heart set on an old Silverface then go ahead and get one. Just
> take it to an amp tech (preferably before buying if the seller will
> let you, probably won't).
>
> You might want to buy from a guitar store, many carry older, throughly
> checked out amps that will aleviate some of your concerns.
>
> "D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would very much appreciate a minute of your time.
> >
> >
> >
> > The sum of my knowledge of electrical safety basically amounts to knowing a
> > three-prong adapter on a two-prong plug doesn't ground an appliance, but
> > having caught the "vintage virus" recently, I went shopping on eBay for a
> > low-wattage guitar amp.
> >
> >
> >
> > A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
> > tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> > crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> > concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> > the lives of my loved ones, myself included.
> >
> >
> >
> > What troubles me is the idea of less-suspecting musicians buying into a
> > potentially lethal decision. Approaching a group of "tube-heads" for simple
> > safety advice is inviting derision, but conscientiously I must. Call it my
> > civic-duty or anal-retentiveness, but I will feel irresponsible if I don't.
> >
> >
> >
> > Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> > innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> > rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> > the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> > right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> > this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> > come to the conclusion that I better not get it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Realizing it may be difficult to put yourself in an idiot's shoes (not that
> > you'd care to), below is my personal example to which I'm not asking
> > specific answers except as in regards to a bigger picture of more general
> > safety rules:
> >
> >
> >
> > This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> > to:
> >
> > The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> > "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> > that means it does not have a "death cap".
> >
> > It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> > way.
> >
> > Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> > all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> > make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> > and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.
> >
> > I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
> > using the following example:
> >
> > "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
> > the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
> > get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
> > though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > and run the ground to the ground lug, the black to the fuse (install a fuse
> > if not present) and white to the transformer. I am still unclear if adding
> > an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.
> >
> >
> >
> > So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> > listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> > tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> > correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm hoping for a check-list kind of guide or rules set or possible scenarios
> > that could serve as a warning to others. A list of known problem amps and
> > designs or a link to such would be helpful.
> >
> >
> >
> > If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
> > tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
> > warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
> > just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
> > ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you've read this far then I thank you very much for your consideration.
> >
> > Sincerely, Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > Silvertone, Harmony, Sears, Wards, Valco, Supra, Heath, Bogen,
> >
> > Gibson, Fender,

[bulldog]

Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.

I mean put a wind screen on your mic. (Nothin like being bit right on
the lip) If your left hand is on the guitar strings and you touch the
chassis with your right hand and get a good jump start, well, you wont
do that again will ya? I think I'll keep my fingers on the plastic
knobs. (they're plastic for a reason)

Basically, don't F with fire if you don't want to get burned. And
especially, don't let you kids play with old tube amps.

By the way the only guitar amp I've ever seen with only one
transformer is a SilverTone amp-in-a-case design. I forget the actual
tube compliment, but basically consisted of a rectifier, a preamp
tube, and an output tube. This only works because the three filiment
voltages added up to 120 volts (50+50+20 (or 30) and all the tubes
were capable of running off 120 Volts DC.

Anyway, my advice is to not buy equipment you are afraid of, no matter
if it has 2 prongs, 3 prongs, a GFCI, a fuse, or creates zero gravity
and a stable worm hole.

If it scares you, buy modern tube equipment.

Bulldog


\

(Doug) wrote in message >...
> If you are buying a vintage amplifier for collection value that is one
> thing. If you are buying for playing value that is another.
>
> If you are worried about the amps safety, that means you are going to
> play the amp. I would suggest you take it to an amp tech and tell him
> to check it out safety-wise. It is fairly simple to put a three prong
> plug on an amp, although I don't remember us getting shocked by the
> old two prongs. But three prong is safer.
>
> I am not sure there is really a good reason to buy an old amp for
> "tone" sake. There is a plethero of quality amps out there, designs
> have improved and workmanship is better than ever. But if you have
> your heart set on an old Silverface then go ahead and get one. Just
> take it to an amp tech (preferably before buying if the seller will
> let you, probably won't).
>
> You might want to buy from a guitar store, many carry older, throughly
> checked out amps that will aleviate some of your concerns.
>
> "D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would very much appreciate a minute of your time.
> >
> >
> >
> > The sum of my knowledge of electrical safety basically amounts to knowing a
> > three-prong adapter on a two-prong plug doesn't ground an appliance, but
> > having caught the "vintage virus" recently, I went shopping on eBay for a
> > low-wattage guitar amp.
> >
> >
> >
> > A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
> > tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think I have begun a journey to actually learning a thing or two about a
> > crucial subject, but for now I am overwhelmed to the point that I've
> > concluded it is not safe for me to buy a vintage amp for home use. I value
> > the lives of my loved ones, myself included.
> >
> >
> >
> > What troubles me is the idea of less-suspecting musicians buying into a
> > potentially lethal decision. Approaching a group of "tube-heads" for simple
> > safety advice is inviting derision, but conscientiously I must. Call it my
> > civic-duty or anal-retentiveness, but I will feel irresponsible if I don't.
> >
> >
> >
> > Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> > innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> > rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a serious inquiry. I recently initiated and then negotiated out of
> > the purchase of a Silvertone 1451. I liked the way it looked, the price was
> > right, and the seller said he had performed a complete cap job. Only because
> > this model was so rare did I have to search endlessly for nights on end to
> > come to the conclusion that I better not get it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Realizing it may be difficult to put yourself in an idiot's shoes (not that
> > you'd care to), below is my personal example to which I'm not asking
> > specific answers except as in regards to a bigger picture of more general
> > safety rules:
> >
> >
> >
> > This is what little I know and the conclusions, right or wrong, that I came
> > to:
> >
> > The tube lineup was 50C5, 35W4, and 12AU6 which I think puts it in the
> > "Radio tube" amp class. Now I believe it has a power transformer, so I think
> > that means it does not have a "death cap".
> >
> > It probably does not have an isolation transformer, a schematic is on the
> > way.
> >
> > Soooo. the two prong plug must be correctly plugged into the outlet first of
> > all. Even so, I believe there are extenuating circumstances that could still
> > make the chassis "hot" and possibly the simultaneous touching of the guitar
> > and chassis, or guitar and mic, or other loop could be dangerous.
> >
> > I think that one solution would be to properly install a three-prong plug
> > using the following example:
> >
> > "With the unit unplugged and the filter caps discharged, cut or de-solder
> > the old, two-wire, line cord from the fuse and switch. While you're at it,
> > get rid of the cap from the switch to chassis ground (leave that ground lug,
> > though!)" http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/Kalamazoo/Mods/safe.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > and run the ground to the ground lug, the black to the fuse (install a fuse
> > if not present) and white to the transformer. I am still unclear if adding
> > an isolation transformer is necessary once this has been accomplished.
> >
> >
> >
> > So you can see the mess I got myself in. A lot of these amps are being
> > listed on eBay because people are paying stupid money for anything with a
> > tube in it. A lot of three-prong plugs have been added and hopefully
> > correctly, but that too should be assessed with caution.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm hoping for a check-list kind of guide or rules set or possible scenarios
> > that could serve as a warning to others. A list of known problem amps and
> > designs or a link to such would be helpful.
> >
> >
> >
> > If that proves impractical or ill-advised in its own right, then at least I've
> > tried to address this issue. I'm not trying to minimize the precautions and
> > warnings already advocated by you guys and every other safety advocate. I'm
> > just hoping for something new that will reach the people like me - uniformed
> > ebayers potentially buying more than they bargained for.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you've read this far then I thank you very much for your consideration.
> >
> > Sincerely, Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > Silvertone, Harmony, Sears, Wards, Valco, Supra, Heath, Bogen,
> >
> > Gibson, Fender,

[Geoff Wood]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100992438k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
>> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
>> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
>> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.
>
> My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
> unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
> a leak in a brake line either.

But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
driving, and try to stop.

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100992438k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
>> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
>> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
>> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.
>
> My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
> unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
> a leak in a brake line either.

But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
driving, and try to stop.

geoff

[Sander deWaal]

(Mike Rivers) said:

>> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
>> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
>> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

>My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
>unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
>a leak in a brake line either.

The problem is you don't know when it will fail.
Would you sell such an amp to an unsuspecting customer, knowing
there's a risk he might electrocute himself?

An insulation transformer is the way to go.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Sander deWaal]

(Mike Rivers) said:

>> It is no laughing matter. You have a very good chance
>> of ending up seriously deceased. I wouldn't go near a
>> hot chassis without a good isolation transformer.

>My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
>unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
>a leak in a brake line either.

The problem is you don't know when it will fail.
Would you sell such an amp to an unsuspecting customer, knowing
there's a risk he might electrocute himself?

An insulation transformer is the way to go.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Sander deWaal]

(bulldog) said:

>Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
>with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
>Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.

You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
I wouldn't .

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Sander deWaal]

(bulldog) said:

>Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
>with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
>Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.

You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
I wouldn't .

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[winston]

"D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
....
> Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
> ...
> Sincerely, Dan
>


Hi Dan;

Sure...here's a few bits of common sense to apply in your quest for
tone.

1. No pain, no gain. - Buying old electrical gear, especially without
seeing it first (like ebay, for example) has inherent risk. So does
playing ice hockey.

2. Double it and Add Thirty.- Like converting from celcius to
fahrenheit, vintage gear will probably cost more than double what you
thought by the time all is said and done.

3. Total Harmonic Distortion.- When I was young and stupid, THD was
the unit of measurement in home audio equipment...less THD meant more
$$$. Vintage amps are the same way...my experience and common sense
says there are people spending farrr too much money to achieve tone on
a scale of diminishing returns. Buying a shrubbery, a really nice one,
might be just as advisable, because none of us is going to be Jimmy
Page.

4. Rubber soles.- I'm pretty sure most rockers wear Doc Martens for a
very good reason.

5. Snobbery.- Avoid it. There will always be someone ready to tell you
why your gear sucks.

6. Some Gear I Know.- You asked for recomendations. Someone's already
mentioned vintage Traynor tube amps. I'd second that suggestion and
add Garnet, possibly Pine. All were CSA Approved in their day and
built to last...I've yet to see a suspiciously wired old Traynor or
Garnet.

Have fun!

[winston]

"D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
....
> Will you guys and gals please share your educated, or hard-learned, or
> innate electrical common sense and offer your suggestions for essential
> rules of safety for musicians buying vintage amplifiers?
> ...
> Sincerely, Dan
>


Hi Dan;

Sure...here's a few bits of common sense to apply in your quest for
tone.

1. No pain, no gain. - Buying old electrical gear, especially without
seeing it first (like ebay, for example) has inherent risk. So does
playing ice hockey.

2. Double it and Add Thirty.- Like converting from celcius to
fahrenheit, vintage gear will probably cost more than double what you
thought by the time all is said and done.

3. Total Harmonic Distortion.- When I was young and stupid, THD was
the unit of measurement in home audio equipment...less THD meant more
$$$. Vintage amps are the same way...my experience and common sense
says there are people spending farrr too much money to achieve tone on
a scale of diminishing returns. Buying a shrubbery, a really nice one,
might be just as advisable, because none of us is going to be Jimmy
Page.

4. Rubber soles.- I'm pretty sure most rockers wear Doc Martens for a
very good reason.

5. Snobbery.- Avoid it. There will always be someone ready to tell you
why your gear sucks.

6. Some Gear I Know.- You asked for recomendations. Someone's already
mentioned vintage Traynor tube amps. I'd second that suggestion and
add Garnet, possibly Pine. All were CSA Approved in their day and
built to last...I've yet to see a suspiciously wired old Traynor or
Garnet.

Have fun!

[Mike Rivers]

In article > -nospam writes:

> > My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
> > unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
> > a leak in a brake line either.
>
> But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
> driving, and try to stop.

I do a subconscious checkout before I drive very far. I'm sure we all
do. If my foot sinks to the floor when I hold the brake pedal in the
garage, I don't drive the car. If it fails while I'm driving, well
that's just one of the risks I take by driving a car.

If you want to check your amplifier chassis with a voltmeter every
time you plug it in, you can certainly do that and at least know that
you started out safe. Or a GFI will do that for you (but as was
pointed out, they're more sensitive than the average human heart).

Hey, you could fall off the stage, or get hit with a flying drum
stick, too. Better to just forget playing the guitar and stay in bed.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > -nospam writes:

> > My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
> > unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
> > a leak in a brake line either.
>
> But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
> driving, and try to stop.

I do a subconscious checkout before I drive very far. I'm sure we all
do. If my foot sinks to the floor when I hold the brake pedal in the
garage, I don't drive the car. If it fails while I'm driving, well
that's just one of the risks I take by driving a car.

If you want to check your amplifier chassis with a voltmeter every
time you plug it in, you can certainly do that and at least know that
you started out safe. Or a GFI will do that for you (but as was
pointed out, they're more sensitive than the average human heart).

Hey, you could fall off the stage, or get hit with a flying drum
stick, too. Better to just forget playing the guitar and stay in bed.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[D. Lemon]

I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under
discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned
but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I
will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start.

My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere
think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would
be this:

CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially
if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you
are doing.

That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now.

It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase
plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to
fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards...
Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear
so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as
we speak....

Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the
"veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly
that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I
AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first.

My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't
mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice
so far.

I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan

[D. Lemon]

I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under
discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned
but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I
will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start.

My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere
think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would
be this:

CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially
if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you
are doing.

That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now.

It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase
plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to
fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards...
Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear
so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as
we speak....

Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the
"veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly
that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I
AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first.

My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't
mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice
so far.

I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> The problem is you don't know when it will fail.
> Would you sell such an amp to an unsuspecting customer, knowing
> there's a risk he might electrocute himself?

Why not? Someon else did - the original manufacturer for one, probalby
a few intermediate sales along the way. At least when it left the
plant, the buyer wouldn't electocute himself by touching the chassis.

I could verify that there's no leakage when I ship it out. If he
decides to take it into the bathtub with him, I can't help that
either. And the buyer should know that components eventually fail, so
he should be aware that at the first tingle he should get it repaired.

> An insulation transformer is the way to go.

You mean an isolation transformer? Sure, if he wants to add that.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> The problem is you don't know when it will fail.
> Would you sell such an amp to an unsuspecting customer, knowing
> there's a risk he might electrocute himself?

Why not? Someon else did - the original manufacturer for one, probalby
a few intermediate sales along the way. At least when it left the
plant, the buyer wouldn't electocute himself by touching the chassis.

I could verify that there's no leakage when I ship it out. If he
decides to take it into the bathtub with him, I can't help that
either. And the buyer should know that components eventually fail, so
he should be aware that at the first tingle he should get it repaired.

> An insulation transformer is the way to go.

You mean an isolation transformer? Sure, if he wants to add that.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[bulldog]

Sander deWaal > wrote in message >...
> (bulldog) said:
>
> >Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
> >with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
> >Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.
>
> You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
> I wouldn't .

First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
them because they liked them.

Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
everybody started seuing everybody else.

Bulldog

[bulldog]

Sander deWaal > wrote in message >...
> (bulldog) said:
>
> >Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
> >with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
> >Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.
>
> You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
> I wouldn't .

First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
them because they liked them.

Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
everybody started seuing everybody else.

Bulldog

[chetatkinsdiet]

Was I giving out advice?
You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net.....
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

Was I giving out advice?
You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net.....
m

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Was I giving out advice?

Yes.

"Don't worry about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's
not like the same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic
will give you."

You're a technical ignoramus, and that statement proves it...in spades.
It's advice, and it's *dangerous* advice. Next time, shut the **** up.

> You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net.....

Knowing your **** will get you hated in lots of places.

Like I said - go practice your scale and leave the tech stuff to the techs.


Lord Valve
Expert

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> Was I giving out advice?

Yes.

"Don't worry about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's
not like the same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic
will give you."

You're a technical ignoramus, and that statement proves it...in spades.
It's advice, and it's *dangerous* advice. Next time, shut the **** up.

> You are such a blowhard.....no wonder you're hated so much on the net.....

Knowing your **** will get you hated in lots of places.

Like I said - go practice your scale and leave the tech stuff to the techs.


Lord Valve
Expert

[agent86]

Geoff Wood wrote:

>> My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
>> unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
>> a leak in a brake line either.
>
> But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
> driving, and try to stop.

And you don't necessarily know the amp chassis is hot until the bass player
tries to hand you a joint (or a beer, or a soda) at rehearsal. Then, if
there's a potential difference between the chassis of the two amps, BOTH
players get zapped. It doesn't matter WHICH one is hot (with respect to
ground).

[agent86]

Geoff Wood wrote:

>> My point (and that of the manufacturers) is that the chassis isn't hot
>> unless the amplifier is broken. I don't drive cars when I know there's
>> a leak in a brake line either.
>
> But you don't necessarily know there's a leak in the brake until you are
> driving, and try to stop.

And you don't necessarily know the amp chassis is hot until the bass player
tries to hand you a joint (or a beer, or a soda) at rehearsal. Then, if
there's a potential difference between the chassis of the two amps, BOTH
players get zapped. It doesn't matter WHICH one is hot (with respect to
ground).

[Geoff Wood]

"bulldog" > wrote in message
om...
> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
> >...
>> (bulldog) said:
>>
>> >Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
>> >with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
>> >Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.
>>
>> You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
>> I wouldn't .
>
> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
> them because they liked them.
>
> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
> everybody started seuing everybody else.
Seuing -is that Kprean ?

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
us can take it no problem.

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"bulldog" > wrote in message
om...
> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
> >...
>> (bulldog) said:
>>
>> >Well, as a former tube amp technician who has been shocked more times
>> >with more volts than I would care to count, I would say suck it up.
>> >Yeah it hurts but you'll most probobly live.
>>
>> You'd sell an amp with a safety risk to an unsuspecting customer?
>> I wouldn't .
>
> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
> them because they liked them.
>
> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
> everybody started seuing everybody else.
Seuing -is that Kprean ?

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
us can take it no problem.

geoff

[Adam Stouffer]

bulldog wrote:
>
> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
> them because they liked them.
>
> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
> everybody started seuing everybody else.

How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords...


Adam

[Adam Stouffer]

bulldog wrote:
>
> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
> them because they liked them.
>
> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
> everybody started seuing everybody else.

How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords...


Adam

[Karl Uppiano]

"Adam Stouffer" > wrote in message
news:X2fod.4843$1B2.3482@trnddc02...
> bulldog wrote:
>>
>> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
>> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
>> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
>> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
>> them because they liked them.
>>
>> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
>> everybody started seuing everybody else.
>
> How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
> chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to everyone.
> What really scares me are resistor cords...

When I was a kid (ca. 1965), my aunt had an Arvin radio, typical All
American 5, hot chassis with a painted metal case. It was in the basement,
over a nice concrete floor. Standing in my bare feet, I got a nasty jolt
when I touched it. I mentioned it to my aunt, and she said "Oh, you need to
turn the plug over". That's how we dealt with stuff like that back then.

[Karl Uppiano]

"Adam Stouffer" > wrote in message
news:X2fod.4843$1B2.3482@trnddc02...
> bulldog wrote:
>>
>> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
>> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
>> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
>> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
>> them because they liked them.
>>
>> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
>> everybody started seuing everybody else.
>
> How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
> chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to everyone.
> What really scares me are resistor cords...

When I was a kid (ca. 1965), my aunt had an Arvin radio, typical All
American 5, hot chassis with a painted metal case. It was in the basement,
over a nice concrete floor. Standing in my bare feet, I got a nasty jolt
when I touched it. I mentioned it to my aunt, and she said "Oh, you need to
turn the plug over". That's how we dealt with stuff like that back then.

[chetatkinsdiet]

>
> > Don't worry
> > about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> > same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> When it comes to a shorted capacitor making the chassis hot with
> respect to AC ground, a 3 watt amp will indeed give you the same
> "punch" as a large, high powered one.


This was what I thought was an obvious joke. Seriously though....I
just realized that this thread was cross-posted to all these techie
groups....no wonder everyone sounds like this.
As I sit in my room surrounded by vintage Ampegs, Sunns, Marshalls,
Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I
can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords....I don't
worry about this sort of thing. Let me clarify. I check it out when
I get a new/old amp. If it's fine then, I don't worry about it. If I
happen to have one of these guys in the shop later on, my tech will
sometimes change cords for me or tell me everything is fine. Simple.
As Mike says earlier, if you're that worried about every little thing
then you probably have no business playing in a bar anyway where you
could get hit with a drumstick, a beer bottle, or really be out
driving that late at night with all the other drunks on the road.
Heck, I'd probably say playing a vintage amp is safer than going to an
NBA game these days....
later,
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

>
> > Don't worry
> > about converting a 3 watt amp to a grounded plug. It's not like the
> > same punch as a vintage Ampeg SVT, Sunn or Acoustic will give you.
>
> When it comes to a shorted capacitor making the chassis hot with
> respect to AC ground, a 3 watt amp will indeed give you the same
> "punch" as a large, high powered one.


This was what I thought was an obvious joke. Seriously though....I
just realized that this thread was cross-posted to all these techie
groups....no wonder everyone sounds like this.
As I sit in my room surrounded by vintage Ampegs, Sunns, Marshalls,
Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I
can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords....I don't
worry about this sort of thing. Let me clarify. I check it out when
I get a new/old amp. If it's fine then, I don't worry about it. If I
happen to have one of these guys in the shop later on, my tech will
sometimes change cords for me or tell me everything is fine. Simple.
As Mike says earlier, if you're that worried about every little thing
then you probably have no business playing in a bar anyway where you
could get hit with a drumstick, a beer bottle, or really be out
driving that late at night with all the other drunks on the road.
Heck, I'd probably say playing a vintage amp is safer than going to an
NBA game these days....
later,
m

[Geoff Wood]

"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message

> Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I
> can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords....

Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a two-prong
cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains transformer.

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"chetatkinsdiet" > wrote in message

> Fenders, Silvertones, Montgomery Ward, Vox and probably a few others I
> can't see right now....most of which are two prong cords....

Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a two-prong
cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains transformer.

geoff

[chetatkinsdiet]

It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.
My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he
didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't
really in the technical nature.
So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
someone else when looking for tubes.
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.
My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he
didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't
really in the technical nature.
So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
someone else when looking for tubes.
m

[Mike Rivers]

In article <X2fod.4843$1B2.3482@trnddc02> writes:

> How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
> chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
> everyone.

Plastic cases. (and Bakalite before that) Today we have the equivalent
blessed-by-the-pope-of-electrical-safety "double insulated" equipment
that has two-prong plugs with no safety ground to the case.

I'd suggest that guitarists who are afraid of their amps switch to
plastic strings.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <X2fod.4843$1B2.3482@trnddc02> writes:

> How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
> chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
> everyone.

Plastic cases. (and Bakalite before that) Today we have the equivalent
blessed-by-the-pope-of-electrical-safety "double insulated" equipment
that has two-prong plugs with no safety ground to the case.

I'd suggest that guitarists who are afraid of their amps switch to
plastic strings.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Yuri T.]

There's been an awful lot of discussion here and few clear answers. I
use a 1965 Fender Vibrolux regulary. It's one of the best sounding
amps around to me. When it had the original 2 prong cord I would get
shocked on the lips at the mic if the polarity switch was in the wrong
position. After having had enough of this I recapped the amp and
installed a 3 prong plug and grounded the chassis. Since then no
problem.

Still, these vintage amps now sell for way to much. I couldn't afford
it today. I paid about $400 for it now they sell for at least $1500+.

Ther are a lot of new good sounding tube amps to check out that will
have better safety built in. I don't know your budget but look at the
Fender reissues, Carr, Bogner, VHT. Even a couple of the Peaveys
arean't half bad. Use your ears and fingers a buy what works for you.

>...
> I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under
> discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned
> but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I
> will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start.
>
> My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere
> think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would
> be this:
>
> CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially
> if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you
> are doing.
>
> That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now.
>
> It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase
> plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to
> fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards...
> Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear
> so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as
> we speak....
>
> Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the
> "veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly
> that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I
> AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first.
>
> My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't
> mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice
> so far.
>
> I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan

[Yuri T.]

There's been an awful lot of discussion here and few clear answers. I
use a 1965 Fender Vibrolux regulary. It's one of the best sounding
amps around to me. When it had the original 2 prong cord I would get
shocked on the lips at the mic if the polarity switch was in the wrong
position. After having had enough of this I recapped the amp and
installed a 3 prong plug and grounded the chassis. Since then no
problem.

Still, these vintage amps now sell for way to much. I couldn't afford
it today. I paid about $400 for it now they sell for at least $1500+.

Ther are a lot of new good sounding tube amps to check out that will
have better safety built in. I don't know your budget but look at the
Fender reissues, Carr, Bogner, VHT. Even a couple of the Peaveys
arean't half bad. Use your ears and fingers a buy what works for you.

>...
> I appreciate the time you've taken to respond and some areas are still under
> discussion. There are too many issues for me to summarize what I've learned
> but I intend to return and do that at the first of the year. I do think I
> will keep reading and buy a neon tester and outlet tester to start.
>
> My intent was to address the issue and hopefully make someone somewhere
> think. If I were to stretch for a simple, preliminary conclusion, it would
> be this:
>
> CAUTION: If you want a little amp just for playing at home, and especially
> if you have children, don't buy a vintage tube amp unless you know what you
> are doing.
>
> That may be stating the obvious but there it is, for now.
>
> It may be hard for some to believe, but it's easy to reach this purchase
> plan when you hear how simple those old point-to-point amps are, so easy to
> fix that hand-wiring, any repairman can do it, screw those circuit boards...
> Even portfolio managers are advising clients to diversify into vintage gear
> so it's a great investment, what are you waiting for, prices are going up as
> we speak....
>
> Sometimes it's difficult to stand outside the box so I wonder if some of the
> "veterans" may be a little too cavalier in their approach - but honestly
> that is to be expected in any field. Maybe I AM being too cautious, maybe I
> AM thinking too hard on this, but I better figure that out first.
>
> My little girl is worth more to me than anything else in the world. I don't
> mind looking foolish if it is erring on the cautious side - the best advice
> so far.
>
> I sincerely appreciate the time and efforts of all you have responded. Dan

[Scott Dorsey]

Adam Stouffer > wrote:
>bulldog wrote:
>>
>> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
>> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
>> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
>> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
>> them because they liked them.
>>
>> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
>> everybody started seuing everybody else.
>
>How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
>chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
>everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords...

Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
occasionally got hurt on those.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Adam Stouffer > wrote:
>bulldog wrote:
>>
>> First of all I didn't sell amps. I repaired them. The owner already
>> knew his amplifier. He knew what to do and not to do. He also knew
>> what he should touch and what not to touch. Old 2 prong tube amps had
>> their safety issues, but the owners accepted that, and continued using
>> them because they liked them.
>>
>> Remember, the type of equipment in question was built long before
>> everybody started seuing everybody else.
>
>How did people survive all those years with so many radios having a hot
>chassis? They seemed safe enough to be sold by the thousands to
>everyone. What really scares me are resistor cords...

Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
occasionally got hurt on those.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tom Paterson]

From Yuri T :



>Still, these vintage amps now sell for way to much. I couldn't afford
>it today. I paid about $400 for it now they sell for at least $1500+.
>
>Ther are a lot of new good sounding tube amps to check out that will
>have better safety built in. I don't know your budget but look at the
>Fender reissues, (snip)

FYI:

http://www.fatdaddyblues.com/Pages/RBBass.html

[Tom Paterson]

From Yuri T :



>Still, these vintage amps now sell for way to much. I couldn't afford
>it today. I paid about $400 for it now they sell for at least $1500+.
>
>Ther are a lot of new good sounding tube amps to check out that will
>have better safety built in. I don't know your budget but look at the
>Fender reissues, (snip)

FYI:

http://www.fatdaddyblues.com/Pages/RBBass.html

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
> dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
> a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.
> My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he
> didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't
> really in the technical nature.
> So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
> someone else when looking for tubes.
> m

Fine with me, sparky.

And from now on, whenever you post ingnorant bull**** like
you posted, I'll rub your nose in it. Fair enough?

Lord Valve
Expert

[Lord Valve]

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

> It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
> dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
> a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.
> My advice to the guy to not worry so much about a vintage amp that he
> didn't even buy because he was worried about it shocking him wasn't
> really in the technical nature.
> So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
> someone else when looking for tubes.
> m

Fine with me, sparky.

And from now on, whenever you post ingnorant bull**** like
you posted, I'll rub your nose in it. Fair enough?

Lord Valve
Expert

[Sander deWaal]

"Geoff Wood" -nospam> said:

>Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
>healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
>us can take it no problem.

Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
crybaby?

BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Sander deWaal]

"Geoff Wood" -nospam> said:

>Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
>healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
>us can take it no problem.

Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
crybaby?

BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[[email protected]]

Lord Valve > wrote in message >...

> *You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice
> your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech
> stuff to the people who know it.

Maybe this is one way to help improve the gene pool.

Anyway, a high-capacity & cheap islolation xfmr that one can make,
maybe even in the ammo box mentioned by another, or at least in a
similar safe enclosure, beats the bleep out of using filament xfmrs if
real pwr is needed:

Salvage the PT's from 2 junked microwave ovens (usually the magnetrons
or electronics die leaving a good PT). Don't do this if you are a
dumfuk or space cadet because their secondaries are very HV, death
guaranteed (more gene pool refinement). Sometimes they are welded up
& need to be ground open, but they are free. Connect the HV sec's
back-to-back, and either weld their enclosures together, or do the
ammo box trick with a chassis-mount 3-wire outlet and be smart about
the layout. This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
mooring(<g>heavy).

[[email protected]]

Lord Valve > wrote in message >...

> *You* have no business handing out safety information. Go practice
> your scales (or, if you're a rock player, your scale) and leave the tech
> stuff to the people who know it.

Maybe this is one way to help improve the gene pool.

Anyway, a high-capacity & cheap islolation xfmr that one can make,
maybe even in the ammo box mentioned by another, or at least in a
similar safe enclosure, beats the bleep out of using filament xfmrs if
real pwr is needed:

Salvage the PT's from 2 junked microwave ovens (usually the magnetrons
or electronics die leaving a good PT). Don't do this if you are a
dumfuk or space cadet because their secondaries are very HV, death
guaranteed (more gene pool refinement). Sometimes they are welded up
& need to be ground open, but they are free. Connect the HV sec's
back-to-back, and either weld their enclosures together, or do the
ammo box trick with a chassis-mount 3-wire outlet and be smart about
the layout. This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
mooring(<g>heavy).

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message


> Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs,
> which kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them
> (most notably some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties)
> did not, and some folks occasionally got hurt on those.

This reminds me of a story about some computer installation guys that were
pushing some big cabinets around while they were still hooked to power. Two
cabinets brushed in passing, there was a really big flash, and it took a
crowbar to pry the welded sections apart.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message


> Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs,
> which kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them
> (most notably some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties)
> did not, and some folks occasionally got hurt on those.

This reminds me of a story about some computer installation guys that were
pushing some big cabinets around while they were still hooked to power. Two
cabinets brushed in passing, there was a really big flash, and it took a
crowbar to pry the welded sections apart.

[Brian McAllister]

On 22 Nov 2004 11:58:30 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
>kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
>some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
>occasionally got hurt on those.

And most of them had metal screws, holding them into the cabinet and
screwing directly into the metal chassis. The exposed heads of the
screws and their washers were at the same potential as the metal
chassis. I have never seen an AC-DC radio or TV with a wooden
chassis, but I guess that you actually meant to say wooden cabinets.

When I worked in Miami in the early '60s, many customers would
complain that they got a tingle when they touched the record changer
in their console stereo, when they were barefoot standing on the
terrazzo floor. The only practical solution was, put a rug in front
of the stereo.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

[Brian McAllister]

On 22 Nov 2004 11:58:30 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Most of those radio and TV sets had wooden chassis and plastic knobs, which
>kept anyone from directly touching the chassis. Some of them (most notably
>some notorious GE portable TV sets from the fifties) did not, and some folks
>occasionally got hurt on those.

And most of them had metal screws, holding them into the cabinet and
screwing directly into the metal chassis. The exposed heads of the
screws and their washers were at the same potential as the metal
chassis. I have never seen an AC-DC radio or TV with a wooden
chassis, but I guess that you actually meant to say wooden cabinets.

When I worked in Miami in the early '60s, many customers would
complain that they got a tingle when they touched the record changer
in their console stereo, when they were barefoot standing on the
terrazzo floor. The only practical solution was, put a rug in front
of the stereo.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

[Brian McAllister]

On 22 Nov 2004 09:25:06 -0800, wrote:

>This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
>no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
>mooring(<g>heavy).

I have a 1kva medically rated (lower leakage current) isolation
transformer that I bought, unused, from Duke University Surplus, for
$25. That was a pretty good deal. Still very heavy.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

[Brian McAllister]

On 22 Nov 2004 09:25:06 -0800, wrote:

>This will give you a ~ 1kw isolation xfmr for little or
>no cash. If you get bored with it, it might be used as a small boat
>mooring(<g>heavy).

I have a 1kva medically rated (lower leakage current) isolation
transformer that I bought, unused, from Duke University Surplus, for
$25. That was a pretty good deal. Still very heavy.


Brian McAllister
PO Box 25910
Sarasota FL 34277-2910

[Karl Uppiano]

I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want.

Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer,
full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs,
features, and power requirements. Volume knobs only go up to 10, however.

[Karl Uppiano]

I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want.

Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer,
full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs,
features, and power requirements. Volume knobs only go up to 10, however.

[Fred Gilham]

Geoff Wood wrote:
> Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a
> two-prong cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains
> transformer.

This is the crucial point! There is "vintage" and there is "vintage".
If your tube lineup is all 6XX and 12XXX, you are OK because these
almost certainly have a power transformer isolating the amp from the
line. If the tube lineup has things like 50C5, 35W4, numbers like
that, the novice should be wary because it is probably a
power-transformer-less design and could present a shock hazard in
normal operation.

--
Fred Gilham
Comprehensive Computer Language Preference Survey
Do you like Lisp? (Check one)
[ ] Yes [ ] Sure [ ] You bet [ ] Yep [ ] Da

[Fred Gilham]

Geoff Wood wrote:
> Two-prong cords are not the same as 'hot chassis'. You can have a
> two-prong cord with the chassis still isolated by a mains
> transformer.

This is the crucial point! There is "vintage" and there is "vintage".
If your tube lineup is all 6XX and 12XXX, you are OK because these
almost certainly have a power transformer isolating the amp from the
line. If the tube lineup has things like 50C5, 35W4, numbers like
that, the novice should be wary because it is probably a
power-transformer-less design and could present a shock hazard in
normal operation.

--
Fred Gilham
Comprehensive Computer Language Preference Survey
Do you like Lisp? (Check one)
[ ] Yes [ ] Sure [ ] You bet [ ] Yep [ ] Da

[D. Lemon]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote
> I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
> want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want.
>
> Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer,
> full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs,
> features, and power requirements.

Karl,
Thanks for the offer.
I bought Jaysen's champ: http://boozhoundlabs.com/champ/

To your point, I was attracted to vintage amps for reasons I've mentioned:
Simplicity, maintenance, tone, investment, and the intangible romantic
factor.
Another attraction was the availibility of low-wattage amplifiers. There are
more vintage models that address that demand and they are found on eBay much
more easily than anywhere else.

There has been a broad range of responses. I'd like to focus on one narrow
aspect for the moment:
A hot-chassis, or, more accurately, what makes a chassis hot?
I understand leakage - bad caps, compromised transformers, design - tested
with a neon tester.
Does incorrect polarity also by definition make a chassis hot?

And for now, if I'm correct, all of this is separate from the issue of
whether or not the amp is grounded.

Thanks. Dan

[D. Lemon]

"Karl Uppiano" > wrote
> I'll build you a nice custom hand-wired, point-to-point tubed amp if you
> want. I'll even use 50C5s, 35W4s and 12AV6s if that's what you want.
>
> Difference is, this one will be safe, using an input power transformer,
> full-wave rectifiers and push-pull outputs. Just send me the specs,
> features, and power requirements.

Karl,
Thanks for the offer.
I bought Jaysen's champ: http://boozhoundlabs.com/champ/

To your point, I was attracted to vintage amps for reasons I've mentioned:
Simplicity, maintenance, tone, investment, and the intangible romantic
factor.
Another attraction was the availibility of low-wattage amplifiers. There are
more vintage models that address that demand and they are found on eBay much
more easily than anywhere else.

There has been a broad range of responses. I'd like to focus on one narrow
aspect for the moment:
A hot-chassis, or, more accurately, what makes a chassis hot?
I understand leakage - bad caps, compromised transformers, design - tested
with a neon tester.
Does incorrect polarity also by definition make a chassis hot?

And for now, if I'm correct, all of this is separate from the issue of
whether or not the amp is grounded.

Thanks. Dan

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
> dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
> a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.

> So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
> someone else when looking for tubes.

I wasn't sure who you were takling about (I've been described as such
sometimes), but that last line clarifies it.

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> It's not knowing your **** that makes one hated. It's being a total
> dickhead, knowitall like you that has zero sense of humor that starts
> a conversation by trying to attack someone else for no reason.

> So, **** you, **** off and always from now on, expect me to suggest
> someone else when looking for tubes.

I wasn't sure who you were takling about (I've been described as such
sometimes), but that last line clarifies it.

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> what makes a chassis hot?
> I understand leakage - bad caps, compromised transformers, design - tested
> with a neon tester.
> Does incorrect polarity also by definition make a chassis hot?

Well, sort of. One side of the AC line (at least in the USA) is
connected to ground - the brown dirty stuff under the house. The other
side isn't. So at any electrical outlet, you can measure 120V between
ground and the hot pin. If everything is working perfectly, you should
measure no voltage between the other (ground) pin and ground, but in
the physical world, there's often a small voltage there, maybe a
couple of tenths of a volt.

To provide some protection from RF, the ground side of the power line
is often connected to the chassis through a small (typically 0.05 uF)
capacitor. This presents a relatively high impedance at 60 Hz (about
50K ohms for 0.05 uF capacitor) which limits the current to about 2
milliamperes from the hot side of the line.

If there's no polarity switch, the capacitor is connected to what
should be the ground side of the line (but without a polarized plug,
you can't be sure). If the hum isn't too bad when you plug it in, you
leave it as is. If it hums, you try reversing the plug, and if it hums
more, you put it back the way it was. What you're doing is connecting
(or not) the ground side of the line to the chassis through that
capacitor. But when the plug is in the "wrong" way, the hot side of
the line is connected to the chassis through that capacitor. The
polarity switch (if there is one) does the same thing as reversing the
plug.

So if the ground side of the line goes to the chassis through the
capacitor, all is well. At 60 Hz, practically no voltage will appear
between the chassis and ground (what you're standing on in bare feet).
And if the capacitor is doing it's job, the radio station next door,
because it's broadcasting at a considerably higher frequency than
60 Hz, will be effectively shunted to the chassis (which may or may
not be a good thing, but that's a different problem).

When the connections are such that the hot side of the line is
connected to the chassis through the capacitor, normally there isn't
enough current available to do any damage, but if the capacitor leaks
(that is, develops some internal DC resistance) this can allow more
current to flow through the chassis if it finds a path to ground
through you (or something less dangerous).

This is why I say that if you get a shock from an amplifier that's
"grounded" at high frequencies through the power line, it's broken -
the capacitor needs to be replaced with one that doesn't leak. And
leakage happens, mostly with age.

When you put a polarized plug on the amplifier, even if it's a
two-prong plug, you can assure that the side with the capacitor always
is connected to the ground side of the line, so it will be safe -
until you plug it into an outlet that has the hot and ground wires
switched. If you use a power cord with a safety ground pin and connect
the ground lead to the chassis, you can remove the line bypass
capacitor because the chassis will always be connected to ground. This
gives you the added safety that if something shorts out inside the
chassis (power wiring or the power transformer, typically) and the hot
side of the line inadvertently touches the chassis, the fuse in the
amplfiier or the circuit breaker feeding the outlet will blow.

And that's what it's all about.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> what makes a chassis hot?
> I understand leakage - bad caps, compromised transformers, design - tested
> with a neon tester.
> Does incorrect polarity also by definition make a chassis hot?

Well, sort of. One side of the AC line (at least in the USA) is
connected to ground - the brown dirty stuff under the house. The other
side isn't. So at any electrical outlet, you can measure 120V between
ground and the hot pin. If everything is working perfectly, you should
measure no voltage between the other (ground) pin and ground, but in
the physical world, there's often a small voltage there, maybe a
couple of tenths of a volt.

To provide some protection from RF, the ground side of the power line
is often connected to the chassis through a small (typically 0.05 uF)
capacitor. This presents a relatively high impedance at 60 Hz (about
50K ohms for 0.05 uF capacitor) which limits the current to about 2
milliamperes from the hot side of the line.

If there's no polarity switch, the capacitor is connected to what
should be the ground side of the line (but without a polarized plug,
you can't be sure). If the hum isn't too bad when you plug it in, you
leave it as is. If it hums, you try reversing the plug, and if it hums
more, you put it back the way it was. What you're doing is connecting
(or not) the ground side of the line to the chassis through that
capacitor. But when the plug is in the "wrong" way, the hot side of
the line is connected to the chassis through that capacitor. The
polarity switch (if there is one) does the same thing as reversing the
plug.

So if the ground side of the line goes to the chassis through the
capacitor, all is well. At 60 Hz, practically no voltage will appear
between the chassis and ground (what you're standing on in bare feet).
And if the capacitor is doing it's job, the radio station next door,
because it's broadcasting at a considerably higher frequency than
60 Hz, will be effectively shunted to the chassis (which may or may
not be a good thing, but that's a different problem).

When the connections are such that the hot side of the line is
connected to the chassis through the capacitor, normally there isn't
enough current available to do any damage, but if the capacitor leaks
(that is, develops some internal DC resistance) this can allow more
current to flow through the chassis if it finds a path to ground
through you (or something less dangerous).

This is why I say that if you get a shock from an amplifier that's
"grounded" at high frequencies through the power line, it's broken -
the capacitor needs to be replaced with one that doesn't leak. And
leakage happens, mostly with age.

When you put a polarized plug on the amplifier, even if it's a
two-prong plug, you can assure that the side with the capacitor always
is connected to the ground side of the line, so it will be safe -
until you plug it into an outlet that has the hot and ground wires
switched. If you use a power cord with a safety ground pin and connect
the ground lead to the chassis, you can remove the line bypass
capacitor because the chassis will always be connected to ground. This
gives you the added safety that if something shorts out inside the
chassis (power wiring or the power transformer, typically) and the hot
side of the line inadvertently touches the chassis, the fuse in the
amplfiier or the circuit breaker feeding the outlet will blow.

And that's what it's all about.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[chetatkinsdiet]

That's what i meant. I was typing fast and was thinking hot chassis
and typing 2 prong cord.
later,
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

That's what i meant. I was typing fast and was thinking hot chassis
and typing 2 prong cord.
later,
m

[BLCKOUT420]

For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.

[BLCKOUT420]

For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.

[Iain M Churches]

"Geoff Wood" -nospam> wrote in message
...
>
> "bulldog" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> (bulldog) said:
>>>
> Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
> healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
> us can take it no problem.
>
> geoff
>

What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
Atlantic
in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))

Iain

[Iain M Churches]

"Geoff Wood" -nospam> wrote in message
...
>
> "bulldog" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> (bulldog) said:
>>>
> Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
> healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
> us can take it no problem.
>
> geoff
>

What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
Atlantic
in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))

Iain

[RdM]

"Iain M Churches" > in
>:
:
: "Geoff Wood" -nospam> wrote in message
: ...
: >
: > "bulldog" > wrote in message
: > om...
: >> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
: >> >...
: >>> (bulldog) said:
: >>>
: > Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
: > healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
: > us can take it no problem.
: >
: > geoff

Have to say I thought that was "Iberial" in Arial font ...
(i.e. from Iberia;-) (still looks the same as I write:-)

: What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
: Atlantic
: in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))
:
: Iain

Sure. Just build one of these and test yourself, uh, out;-)
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/tickle.htm

[RdM]

"Iain M Churches" > in
>:
:
: "Geoff Wood" -nospam> wrote in message
: ...
: >
: > "bulldog" > wrote in message
: > om...
: >> Sander deWaal > wrote in message
: >> >...
: >>> (bulldog) said:
: >>>
: > Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
: > healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
: > us can take it no problem.
: >
: > geoff

Have to say I thought that was "Iberial" in Arial font ...
(i.e. from Iberia;-) (still looks the same as I write:-)

: What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
: Atlantic
: in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))
:
: Iain

Sure. Just build one of these and test yourself, uh, out;-)
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/tickle.htm

[Kruse]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101141044k@trad>...

> Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
> for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
> newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
> notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

[Kruse]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101141044k@trad>...

> Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
> for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
> newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
> notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

[Geoff Wood]

"Kruse" > wrote in message
m...
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1101141044k@trad>...
>
>> Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
>> for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
>> newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
>> notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.
>
> BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
> thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
> people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
> him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
> bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
> life threatening.
> And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

Dunno what the rules are where he come's from.. But in this socialist
paradise, if I repair something I have to put a sticker on it, signed by me,
saying that it has been tested to comply with electrical safety regulations.
How's that for personal responsibilty ?

But then, we do have national electrical safety regulations...

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"Kruse" > wrote in message
m...
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1101141044k@trad>...
>
>> Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
>> for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
>> newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
>> notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.
>
> BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
> thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
> people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
> him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
> bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
> life threatening.
> And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

Dunno what the rules are where he come's from.. But in this socialist
paradise, if I repair something I have to put a sticker on it, signed by me,
saying that it has been tested to comply with electrical safety regulations.
How's that for personal responsibilty ?

But then, we do have national electrical safety regulations...

geoff

[Tommy B]

What a great word, "Christofascists"
Darwin who?

Tom

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Geoff Wood" -nospam> said:
>
> >Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about
a
> >healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists
like
> >us can take it no problem.
>
> Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
> crybaby?
>
> BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)
>
> --
> Sander de Waal
> " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Tommy B]

What a great word, "Christofascists"
Darwin who?

Tom

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Geoff Wood" -nospam> said:
>
> >Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about
a
> >healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists
like
> >us can take it no problem.
>
> Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
> crybaby?
>
> BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)
>
> --
> Sander de Waal
> " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
BLCKOUT420 > wrote:
>For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.

Sorry, I have seen too many people die this way.

A wireless mike is not a solution for someone who is floating well above
ground potential. Because sooner or later they're going to touch the
drum kit or the bass player or...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
BLCKOUT420 > wrote:
>For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.

Sorry, I have seen too many people die this way.

A wireless mike is not a solution for someone who is floating well above
ground potential. Because sooner or later they're going to touch the
drum kit or the bass player or...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> BUT, he [Lord Valve] makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
> thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
> people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
> him more closely than anybody here.

Maybe people who need their toob amps fixed are just tough guys who
like other guys who talk tough.

Did he give an explanation of why a chassis becomes hot? I'm sure he
could, but instead, chose to attack a participant. That doesn't give a
good impression for a businessman.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> BUT, he [Lord Valve] makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
> thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
> people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
> him more closely than anybody here.

Maybe people who need their toob amps fixed are just tough guys who
like other guys who talk tough.

Did he give an explanation of why a chassis becomes hot? I'm sure he
could, but instead, chose to attack a participant. That doesn't give a
good impression for a businessman.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Georg Grosz]

"D. Lemon" > wrote in message >...

> A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
> tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply. Second, take it to a tech and have them
bring it up to modern safety standards.

Third, don't bring it to a gig. Bring a POD instead.

Thankfully, I play jazz, and it has been a long time since I've seen a
tube amp on the bandstand.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
> are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
> transformer power supply.

Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
power transformers here?

This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Georg Grosz]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101299358k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
> > are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
> > transformer power supply.
>
> Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
> lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
> power transformers here?
>
> This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
> Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
> get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
> to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
> those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.

You'd be surprised at what people will dredge up out of the closet and
plug a guitar into. I have never seen hot chassis gear, but plenty of
other things. One time I got to the gig with easily five minutes to
spare, and the guitarist had been there for an hour hooking up an
amazing assemblage that included an old Marshall with a two-wire cord,
some 240 Volt gadgets plugged into an autotransformer, and a
relatively new "boutique" tube amp. All powered by a combination of
those cheap two-prong extensions with the three little outlets on one
end. The three-prong plugs were stuck into the outlets so the third
prong was doing nothing. The Marshall was being used for vocals. And
he told me he sometimes got a shock from it.

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

[play-on]

On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

>From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
>and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
>amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

[Lord Valve]

Georg Grosz wrote:

> From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> solid state gear.

You should get out more.

LV

[Blues_Jam]

"play-on" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
> wrote:
>
> >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> >amps.
>
> Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>
> Al

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either ;)

Blues

[Lord Valve]

Blues_Jam wrote:

> "play-on" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> > >amps.
> >
> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
> >
> > Al
>
> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
> either ;)
>
> Blues


BB king plays a Lab Series.

LV

[anybody-but-bush]

"play-on" > wrote in message
...
: On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800,
(Georg Grosz)
: wrote:
:
: >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the
ones using modern
: >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being
used by some rock
: >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly
small solid state
: >amps.
:
: Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to
talk about really
: "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being
totally unknown to
: the general public) the vast majority continue to use
tube amps.
:
: Al

And may I also add, that Al's vast majority of "famous"
guitar players above usually have only a cord between
the ax and the amp. It is all in the fingers, so save
yourself a lot of dough and learn to play like they
play instead of spending all your time and money on
gimmicks that may make your playing sound like their
sound but your playing still sounds like you playing. .

Phil

[Harvey Gerst]

Lord Valve > wrote:

>Blues_Jam wrote:
>
>> "play-on" > wrote:
>> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
>> >
>> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
>> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
>> > >amps.

>> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
>> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
>> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

>> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
>> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
>> either ;)

>BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[ScotFraser]

<< Albert King played a solid state amp.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/ >><BR><BR>

Indeed, the one time I saw him he was playing your design.

Scott Fraser

[Lord Valve]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> Lord Valve > wrote:
>
> >Blues_Jam wrote:
> >
> >> "play-on" > wrote:
> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> >> > >amps.
>
> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>
> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
> >> either ;)
>
> >BB king plays a Lab Series.
>
> Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV

[Harvey Gerst]

Lord Valve > wrote:

>
>
>Harvey Gerst wrote:
>
>> Lord Valve > wrote:
>>
>> >Blues_Jam wrote:
>> >
>> >> "play-on" > wrote:
>> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
>> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
>> >> > >amps.
>>
>> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
>> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
>> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>>
>> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
>> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
>> >> either ;)
>>
>> >BB king plays a Lab Series.

>> Albert King played a solid state amp.

>Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

>Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
>but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV,

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[BLCKOUT420]

>> From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>> solid state gear.

I don't know any.

[Lord Valve]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> Lord Valve > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
> >
> >> Lord Valve > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Blues_Jam wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "play-on" > wrote:
> >> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> >> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> >> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> >> >> > >amps.
> >>
> >> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> >> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> >> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
> >>
> >> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
> >> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
> >> >> either ;)
> >>
> >> >BB king plays a Lab Series.
>
> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.
>
> >Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.
>
> >Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
> >but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.
>
> LV,
>
> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

LV

[Harvey Gerst]

Lord Valve > wrote:

>
>
>Harvey Gerst wrote:
>
>> Lord Valve > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lord Valve > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Blues_Jam wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "play-on" > wrote:
>> >> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>> >> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
>> >> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
>> >> >> > >amps.
>> >>
>> >> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
>> >> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
>> >> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>> >>
>> >> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
>> >> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
>> >> >> either ;)
>> >>
>> >> >BB king plays a Lab Series.
>>
>> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.
>>
>> >Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.
>>
>> >Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
>> >but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

>> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

>Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[a.m.]

"Harvey Gerst" > wrote in message
...
> Lord Valve > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
> >
> >> Lord Valve > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Lord Valve > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Blues_Jam wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "play-on" > wrote:
> >> >> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using
modern
> >> >> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by
some rock
> >> >> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid
state
> >> >> >> > >amps.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about
really
> >> >> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally
unknown to
> >> >> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube
amps.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a
single
> >> >> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get
out much
> >> >> >> either ;)
> >> >>
> >> >> >BB king plays a Lab Series.
> >>
> >> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.
> >>
> >> >Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.
> >>
> >> >Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
> >> >but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.
>
> >> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.
>
> >Still sounded like ass live.
>
> Well, Albert seemed to like it.
>
> Harvey Gerst
> Indian Trail Recording Studio
> http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Finally...celebrity death match warm up, Harvey vs. Valve.

[BLCKOUT420]

>> >Still sounded like ass live.
>>
>> Well, Albert seemed to like it.

I saw Albert in a small club in the late 80s. He had a Acoustic 2-15 bottom
with a horn, with a guitar case covering the front to muffle the sound. He was
turned up loud as heck , and you know what? It sounded like ****.

[play-on]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:28:50 -0600, Harvey Gerst
> wrote:

>Lord Valve > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Harvey Gerst wrote:
>>
>>> Lord Valve > wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Harvey Gerst wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Lord Valve > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >Blues_Jam wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> "play-on" > wrote:
>>> >> >> > (Georg Grosz) wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
>>> >> >> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
>>> >> >> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
>>> >> >> > >amps.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
>>> >> >> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
>>> >> >> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
>>> >> >> blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
>>> >> >> either ;)
>>> >>
>>> >> >BB king plays a Lab Series.
>>>
>>> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.
>>>
>>> >Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.
>>>
>>> >Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
>>> >but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.
>
>>> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.
>
>>Still sounded like ass live.
>
>Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

[Tom Paterson]

From: (BLCKOUT420)

>I saw Albert in a small club in the late 80s. He had a Acoustic 2-15 bottom
>with a horn, with a guitar case covering the front to muffle the sound. He
>was
>turned up loud as heck , and you know >what? It sounded like ****.

Same amp, small club, mid-seventies, no guitar case, sounded great. Hell of a
night, he tore it up. The Twin he started out with didn't make it BTW.

At a late 60's gig, larger venue, the Acoustic didn't work well at all. Saw him
a year or so later outdoors (festival); between his amp and the PA, sounded
fine in spite of tuning problems. --TP

[Karl Uppiano]

> But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Discuss.

[Harvey Gerst]

play-on > wrote:

>Harvey Gerst > wrote:
>>Lord Valve > wrote:

>>>> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.

>>>> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

>>>Still sounded like ass live.

>>Well, Albert seemed to like it.

>But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
>
>Al

True, I just knew Albert.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[BLCKOUT420]

>Does he
>know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Show me one.It hasn't been done yet...

also, don't get me wrong about Albert. I'm talking about his tone, not his
playing. He was one funky assed mofo. I saw him several times, and thought he
was simply spectacular. I just hated the way his guitar tone sounded the second
time I saw him.I actually thought that he had been on the receiving end of a
bad rider, and somebody just slipped in a crappy amp.

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>> But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
>
>Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
>know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved building
an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid state
amps sound different.

>Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
>lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound different.

>Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.
---scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 26 Nov 2004 21:27:26 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
>beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
>curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
>It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.

"Bailiff, whack his pee-pee."

Everybody knows that everything sounds the same. Please try to control
yourself. (Ix-nay!)

Chris Hornbeck

[Karl Uppiano]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>>> But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
>>
>>Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
>>know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?
>
> Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved
> building
> an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid
> state
> amps sound different.

I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,
It's a lot harder to explain sonic differences, if any (especially if noise,
frequency response and distortion are similar in the amplifiers being
compared).

>>Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
>>(or
>>lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.
>
> Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a
> zero-feedback
> solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound
> different.

Are there any *measureable* differences between them? Are they running into
overload at any time?

>>Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.
>
> Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
> beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
> curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
> It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.

FET curves look a lot like tetrode curves to me, although the voltages and
currents are much different. Some high-end tube enthusiasts only like to
listen to triode amplifiers. Sometimes, only class-A amplifiers, despite the
fact that the price per watt becomes enormous.

My personal belief is that the quest for highest fidelity, from an
engineering perspective (i.e., numerically, scientifically and objectively)
is most easily accomplished using BJT designs. But if money (and
reliability, repeatability and consistency) is no object, some interesting
creations can be made by trial-and-error using other devices. This is a
generalization, of course. I have designed with JFETs and MOSFETs or opamps
because of some specific design requirement or another with very predictable
results. So far, I have never been called upon by any employer to design any
tube gear.

For musical instrument amplifiers, and live recording (where the maximum
level is not known in advance) tubes may have the advantage due to the way
they overload. But according to articles I've read on the subject, this is
partially due (as I said in my earlier post) to the amount of feedback, and
the amount of iron in the audio path, as well as tube characteristics
themselves.

Of course, this is all speculation until someone actually publishes some
scientific research, which may never happen. I doubt there's any money in
it. I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
first transistors, instead of BJTs. The transition to solid state design
would have been much smoother, I think.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 03:37:27 GMT, "Karl Uppiano"
> wrote:

> I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
>first transistors, instead of BJTs.

Bizarrely enough, they were!

Chris Hornbeck

[Lord Valve]

Harvey Gerst wrote:

> play-on > wrote:
>
> >Harvey Gerst > wrote:
> >>Lord Valve > wrote:
>
> >>>> >> Albert King played a solid state amp.
>
> >>>> I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.
>
> >>>Still sounded like ass live.
>
> >>Well, Albert seemed to like it.
>
> >But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
> >
> >Al
>
> True, I just knew Albert.

Hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

No-one said you can't like amps that sound like ass.
I don't make the rules, I'm just an observer. If you're
in love with three-legged fuses, no reason Albert can't
be too. I know a few folks who aren't; turn your radio
on and have a listen, won't you? It's all good. ;-)


Lord Valve
Tone Chaperone

VISIT MY WEBSITE: http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve
I specialize in top quality HAND SELECTED NOS and
current-production vacuum tubes for guitar and
bass amps. Good prices, fast service.
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* Meatloaf * Catherine Wheel * Yo La Tengo * Let's Go Bowling *
* Rob Hyckys (guitarist for Commander Cody) * Waky Amps *
* Fleetwood Mac * Tyrin Benoit * Eugene Fodor * Dale Bruning *
* Komet Amplification * Dr. Z * Maven Peal * Blockhead Amps *
* Jim Kelley * Balls Amplification * Roccaforte Amplifiers *
* Gerhart Amplification * Aiken Amplification * The Right Half of AGA *
* Lots More *

NBS Electronics, 230 South Broadway, Denver, CO 80209-1510
Phone orders/tech support after 1:30 PM Denver time at 303-778-1156

- Our 23rd Year -

VISA - MASTERCARD - PAYPAL

"It ain't braggin', if ya can do it." - Dizzy Dean

[Lord Valve]

Karl Uppiano wrote:

> > But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
>
> Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps?

Probably. ;-)

> Does he
> know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Does he give a ****? Probably not. ;-)

> Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
> lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Gosh, thanks.

> Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Hint: trons need plenty of room to frolic.

Now, if you wanna squish 'em all up into an itty-bitty
piece of sand, you go right ahead. I prefer free-range
organic trons which have plenty of room to do the bop,
the shimmy, the shake, or whatever other gyrations
their little homespun inspiration may lead them to try.
Don't need no consarned foreign molecules in the
way, or no dope, neither.

> Discuss.

Go right ahead.

Lord Valve
Uberrohrenfuhrer, Thousand Year Glass Reich

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>
>I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
>instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
>characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
>behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
>philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,
>It's a lot harder to explain sonic differences, if any (especially if noise,
>frequency response and distortion are similar in the amplifiers being
>compared).

Lots and lots. There's that terrible 1972 JAES paper that keeps turning
up, but there have also been some more careful studies like some of
Marshall Leach's work. Doug Self's series on amplifier design in Wireless
World talks a little bit about different distortion modes and their
significance in different topologies. Remember, nothing is strictly linear,
although some things are more linear than others.

>>>Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
>>>(or
>>>lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.
>>
>> Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a
>> zero-feedback
>> solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound
>> different.
>
>Are there any *measureable* differences between them? Are they running into
>overload at any time?

Of course! The curves are different, so the distortion spectrum is going to
be measurably different. That's the real deal.

And I can build you a transistor amp and you can swap the 2N3055 output
transistors for MJ10004 (and rebias) and it'll sound different, again
because the distortion spectrum is measurably different. (The same goes
for a tube amp with swaps between tube types).

>>>Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.
>>
>> Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
>> beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
>> curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
>> It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.
>
>FET curves look a lot like tetrode curves to me, although the voltages and
>currents are much different. Some high-end tube enthusiasts only like to
>listen to triode amplifiers. Sometimes, only class-A amplifiers, despite the
>fact that the price per watt becomes enormous.

I think in part that is a reaction to the obsession with amplifier power
that we've been seeing since the seventies. FET curves are more like triode
curves than they are like bipolar curves... but for that matter, the FET
curves aren't all the same. Doesn't take much of a change to be audible,
and kinks you can't see on the Tek curve tracer get quite easily measured
when you are sweeping a mixture of high and low level signals through an
amp.

>My personal belief is that the quest for highest fidelity, from an
>engineering perspective (i.e., numerically, scientifically and objectively)
>is most easily accomplished using BJT designs. But if money (and
>reliability, repeatability and consistency) is no object, some interesting
>creations can be made by trial-and-error using other devices. This is a
>generalization, of course. I have designed with JFETs and MOSFETs or opamps
>because of some specific design requirement or another with very predictable
>results. So far, I have never been called upon by any employer to design any
>tube gear.

I have mostly designed tube amps, including a bunch of transformerless tube
amps using very high transconductance regulator tubes, and it has been a
hell of a lot of fun. I tend to prefer MOSFET designs over BJT stuff, if
only because it's possible to build much simpler circuits with less to go
wrong (no thermal compensation, etc.). But that's just me, and I don't know
anything about guitar amps at all, just hi-fi stuff.

>For musical instrument amplifiers, and live recording (where the maximum
>level is not known in advance) tubes may have the advantage due to the way
>they overload. But according to articles I've read on the subject, this is
>partially due (as I said in my earlier post) to the amount of feedback, and
>the amount of iron in the audio path, as well as tube characteristics
>themselves.

For the most part, yeah, but musical instrument amplifiers aren't really
amplifiers. They are part of a more complex system in which an instrument,
an amplifier, and a speaker, all interact. And they are specifically designed
not to be accurate. The low level distortion spectra as well as the spectra
at clipping are specifically designed for particular sounds, and often things
are done in the amplifier that compensate for things in the speaker or the
instrument so you can't easily separate the system into parts. This sounds
like a lot of work to model effectively to me.

>Of course, this is all speculation until someone actually publishes some
>scientific research, which may never happen. I doubt there's any money in
>it. I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
>first transistors, instead of BJTs. The transition to solid state design
>would have been much smoother, I think.

FETs actually were the first transistors, having been discovered some time
in the late 19th century. But they weren't practical (to the point of being
able to carry useful current) until well after junction transistors had
become popular. I'll think of the guy that discovered the things... Wentz
I want to say? It's discussed in the MIT Press book on the history of electric
power distribution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article <XDSpd.365$Hk6.19@trnddc05> writes:

> >>Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
> >>know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

> I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
> instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
> characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
> behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
> philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,

All the research in the AES isn't going to change a player's attitude.
If they play blues, they'll play tubes until there's no more vacuum.
It isn't about high fidelity. It's about attitude.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[BLCKOUT420]

I thought the tubes vs. transistor thing was over a long time ago. I thought
the big argument now was the digital modeling amps vs. the real thing.

Which ,by the way, a pod or tonelab is still no match for the real thing.

And yes , I do have a Vox Tonelab. I also have 29 vintage amps.

[Karl Uppiano]

"Lord Valve" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Karl Uppiano wrote:
>
>> > But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.
>>
>> Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps?
>
> Probably. ;-)
>
>> Does he
>> know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?
>
> Does he give a ****? Probably not. ;-)
>
>> Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
>> (or
>> lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.
>
> Gosh, thanks.

Don't mention it. I'm just throwing stuff out there because I think it's
interesting. I've always been puzzled about why people obsess over
implementation details.

>> Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.
>
> Hint: trons need plenty of room to frolic.
>
> Now, if you wanna squish 'em all up into an itty-bitty
> piece of sand, you go right ahead. I prefer free-range
> organic trons which have plenty of room to do the bop,
> the shimmy, the shake, or whatever other gyrations
> their little homespun inspiration may lead them to try.
> Don't need no consarned foreign molecules in the
> way, or no dope, neither.
>
>> Discuss.
>
> Go right ahead.

It has already started.

> Lord Valve
> Uberrohrenfuhrer, Thousand Year Glass Reich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Scott Dorsey]

Karl Uppiano > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>>
>> And I can build you a transistor amp and you can swap the 2N3055 output
>> transistors for MJ10004 (and rebias) and it'll sound different, again
>> because the distortion spectrum is measurably different. (The same goes
>> for a tube amp with swaps between tube types).
>
>That wouldn't surprise me, but if/when the distortion is below the noise,
>what is it that we're perceiving, if anything?

If you can answer that question with good solid supporting evidence, you
can probably get a whole issue of the JAES all to yourself. That is a
question that people have been asking for 75 years or so. The answers
get better, but they remain pretty diffuse.

>> FETs actually were the first transistors, having been discovered some time
>> in the late 19th century. But they weren't practical (to the point of
>> being
>> able to carry useful current) until well after junction transistors had
>> become popular. I'll think of the guy that discovered the things... Wentz
>> I want to say? It's discussed in the MIT Press book on the history of
>> electric
>> power distribution.
>
>I should have said "practical transistors".

I'm _still_ waiting for practical transistors today. Either you can get
low noise or high breakdown voltages, you can't get both. And if you want
high breakdown voltages and high input impedance, you can't get low
Miller capacitance. This isn't the future I was promised. And semiconductor
guys are increasingly trying to sell me lower and lower voltage parts. For
God's sake, I want _higher_ operating levels, not lower ones. Take your 3V
rails and stick them, Maxim. I want +/-48V supplies minimum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> And semiconductor
> guys are increasingly trying to sell me lower and lower voltage parts. For
> God's sake, I want _higher_ operating levels, not lower ones. Take your 3V
> rails and stick them, Maxim. I want +/-48V supplies minimum.

And in your cellular phone, too.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Yuri T.]

play-on > wrote in message >...
> On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
> wrote:
>
> >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> >amps.
>
> Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
>
> Al

Yeah, that's funny. Almost everyone I know uses tube amps. Jazz
players tend to be the exception. Then you'll see Polytones and JC
120s. Both of which are too clean and dry for rock, blues, etc.

[Yuri T.]

>
> BB king plays a Lab Series.
>
> LV

When I've seen him it was a Fender Twin.

Lab Series, ugh. The few I've heard rather sucked but there may be exceptions.

[Yuri T.]

> Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
> beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
> curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
> It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.
> ---scott

No one can agree....

[Yuri T.]

> All the research in the AES isn't going to change a player's attitude.
> If they play blues, they'll play tubes until there's no more vacuum.
> It isn't about high fidelity. It's about attitude.

Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE. It's
also most impossible to explain. In general tube guitar amps just feel
better, more organic to the player. Kinda like the difference between
a real piano with nice action and a digital piano with nice action.
Not that there aren't decent soild state amps. But there's just
something 'bout them tubes. Plus you can't argue with a 40 year old
amp that has never failed me. (Though it did about knock me
unconscious once before I installed the grounded plug.)

Comparing guitar amps is more subjective than microphones. There's the
interaction of the player, guitar and whatever little boxes are
plugged in too.

I own a POD. Useful tool but there's just a bit of latency between the
picking of the note and the hearing of the note that bothers me.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.

This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
players.

> also most impossible to explain. In general tube guitar amps just feel
> better, more organic to the player. Kinda like the difference between
> a real piano with nice action and a digital piano with nice action.
> Not that there aren't decent soild state amps. But there's just
> something 'bout them tubes.

This is "attitude" for sure.

> Comparing guitar amps is more subjective than microphones. There's the
> interaction of the player, guitar and whatever little boxes are
> plugged in too.

That's very much like microphones. And some singers and
instrumentalists have their special microphones - another just won't
do.

> I own a POD. Useful tool but there's just a bit of latency between the
> picking of the note and the hearing of the note that bothers me.

Hardly representative of a solid state amplifier. That's like a
fair-to-middlin' digital piano with a bad action.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Les Cargill]

BLCKOUT420 wrote:

> I thought the tubes vs. transistor thing was over a long time ago.

That will never be over.

> I thought
> the big argument now was the digital modeling amps vs. the real thing.
>

That actually has been over for quite a while.

> Which ,by the way, a pod or tonelab is still no match for the real thing.
>
> And yes , I do have a Vox Tonelab. I also have 29 vintage amps.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Mike Rivers wrote:

> > I own a POD. Useful tool but there's just a bit of latency between the
> > picking of the note and the hearing of the note that bothers me.

> Hardly representative of a solid state amplifier. That's like a
> fair-to-middlin' digital piano with a bad action.

This is .sig material! <g>

--
ha

[play-on]

On 29 Nov 2004 12:06:14 -0800, (Yuri T.) wrote:

>>
>> BB king plays a Lab Series.
>>
>> LV
>
>When I've seen him it was a Fender Twin.
>
>Lab Series, ugh. The few I've heard rather sucked but there may be exceptions.

Actually they were one of the best solid state guitar amps made. I've
heard two different guitarists play thru a single 15 model Lab Series
(the R-9?) and they both sounded good thru the amp.

Al

[play-on]

On 29 Nov 2004 21:34:04 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>In article > writes:
>
>> Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
>
>This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
>players.
>
>> also most impossible to explain. In general tube guitar amps just feel
>> better, more organic to the player. Kinda like the difference between
>> a real piano with nice action and a digital piano with nice action.
>> Not that there aren't decent soild state amps. But there's just
>> something 'bout them tubes.
>
>This is "attitude" for sure.

No Mike, it's not. Listen, I've been playing as a pro guitarist for
over 30 years, and I have tried just about every amp over the years.

Tube amps are a "feel" thing -- as he said, it's a bit like keyboard
action. A tube amp, when pushed, pushes back a little bit and the
guitarist can play with the dynamics of this. It's kind of like
having a giant tube compressor.

Al

[Joe Mama]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article >,
> BLCKOUT420 > wrote:
>
>>For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.
>
>
> Sorry, I have seen too many people die this way.
>
> A wireless mike is not a solution for someone who is floating well above
> ground potential. Because sooner or later they're going to touch the
> drum kit or the bass player or...
> --scott

Uhhh, I think he meant a wireless for the guitar...

Cheers,
joe.

[Scott Dorsey]

Joe Mama > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> In article >,
>> BLCKOUT420 > wrote:
>>
>>>For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a wireless.
>>
>> Sorry, I have seen too many people die this way.
>>
>> A wireless mike is not a solution for someone who is floating well above
>> ground potential. Because sooner or later they're going to touch the
>> drum kit or the bass player or...
>
>Uhhh, I think he meant a wireless for the guitar...

Sure, but that totally changes the tone...
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

A more appropriate assessment is that a tube amp fails in a predictable way,
and as it fails (speakers break up, transformer sags, etc) it produces a
sound that seems to emanate from the interaction of the player, guitar and
amp. But it's like using a soften function on a digital photo. While the
photo may become more pleasing on the overall view, it's actually less sharp
and less detailed. Or, maybe it's more warm than true to the color, or
whatever. That's why guitar players like what they hear when they've
cranked the amp up to get the transformer to sag and why they are dumping
100 watts into vintage 25 watt speakers, etc.

I know because I bought my first electric guitar in 1961 (still have it) and
so I have some serious guitar playing under my belt too. But the fact is
that I've dealt with hundreds of guitar players over the years, and to a
fault most rock players simply have no ability to determine WHY they like
the sound of an overdriven amp, they just do, and mostly, to be totally
honest, is because it hides most of the stuff they do wrong, and allows they
to pin their perceived playing abilities on the amp's ability to hide what
they don't do right.

I'm sure you've run into situations where players sound good on a Les
Paul/Marshall combination but when they get hold of an acoustic, they can't
play for a good ****. They explain it as a difference in the way the
guitars are set up, but the fact is they never learned good guitar technique
in the first place. They are jammers.

The reason I say this is that, like I said, I've dealt with tons of players,
and the best ones are the ones that know the guitar inside and out, can use
an amp or not, and can make any music they play sound good.

Now I'm not doubting your abilities, Al, I'm just making a generalized
statement here from my experiences over the years. Guitar players are a
dime a dozen, but good guitar players are more like $100 per pound. Gantt
Kushner, here locally in DC is an example of a good guitar player. His amp
is a Bogner, and while it can crank and kick with the best of the blues boys
in town, it's capable enough to allow him to do anything his playing
abilities can come up with. Then there's Steve Abshire, Paul Bollenbach,
Paul Winger, and a number of other fantastically good players that can sit
in on any session or live event without so much as a "what key" statement.
I'd say fully 98% of the guitar players out there don't fit this mold.

So I'd suggest that the tale of the vintage guitar amp is a tale of minimal
pages in the runes of guitar playing. While certain amps seem to work best
for the majority, it's the spectacular that belie the myth.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"play-on" > wrote in message
...
> On 29 Nov 2004 21:34:04 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >In article >
writes:
> >
> >> Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
> >
> >This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
> >players.
> >
> >> also most impossible to explain. In general tube guitar amps just feel
> >> better, more organic to the player. Kinda like the difference between
> >> a real piano with nice action and a digital piano with nice action.
> >> Not that there aren't decent soild state amps. But there's just
> >> something 'bout them tubes.
> >
> >This is "attitude" for sure.
>
> No Mike, it's not. Listen, I've been playing as a pro guitarist for
> over 30 years, and I have tried just about every amp over the years.
>
> Tube amps are a "feel" thing -- as he said, it's a bit like keyboard
> action. A tube amp, when pushed, pushes back a little bit and the
> guitarist can play with the dynamics of this. It's kind of like
> having a giant tube compressor.
>
> Al

[Roger W. Norman]

"Totally changes the sound" doesn't necessarily equate to changing it for
the worse, Scott. I have a stupid little Nady guitar wireless that sounds
surprisingly good, probably because it's compressing the **** out of the
signal from the guitar, but I've not noticed anything un-usable from it. I
use it all the time when I'm playing out because I don't have to worry about
bull**** electrical problems from "Sound by Gus" guys.

Just carry a good supply of fresh 9 volt batteries! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Joe Mama > wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> In article >,
> >> BLCKOUT420 > wrote:
> >>
> >>>For all you guys that are so paranoid about being shocked- buy a
wireless.
> >>
> >> Sorry, I have seen too many people die this way.
> >>
> >> A wireless mike is not a solution for someone who is floating well
above
> >> ground potential. Because sooner or later they're going to touch the
> >> drum kit or the bass player or...
> >
> >Uhhh, I think he meant a wireless for the guitar...
>
> Sure, but that totally changes the tone...
> --scott
>
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:

> >This is "attitude" for sure.
>
> No Mike, it's not. Listen, I've been playing as a pro guitarist for
> over 30 years, and I have tried just about every amp over the years.

It sounds like you have an "attitude" there. You've been playing for
30 years so you know what's right.

YOu have a preference, and that's fine. It's your craft. When you
insist that the other kind doesn't feel right to you, that's
"attitude."

> Tube amps are a "feel" thing -- as he said, it's a bit like keyboard
> action. A tube amp, when pushed, pushes back a little bit and the
> guitarist can play with the dynamics of this. It's kind of like
> having a giant tube compressor.

Why isn't this possible in solid state amplifiers? I'll bet it is.
Could be you've just never wanted to believe it's possible. Or that
since you found your sound, you just didn't worry about all the other
possibilities. That's perfectly normal.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[George Gleason]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:
>
>
>>>This is "attitude" for sure.
>>
>>No Mike, it's not. Listen, I've been playing as a pro guitarist for
>>over 30 years, and I have tried just about every amp over the years.
>
>
> It sounds like you have an "attitude" there. You've been playing for
> 30 years so you know what's right.
>
> YOu have a preference, and that's fine. It's your craft. When you
> insist that the other kind doesn't feel right to you, that's
> "attitude."
>
>
>>Tube amps are a "feel" thing -- as he said, it's a bit like keyboard
>>action. A tube amp, when pushed, pushes back a little bit and the
>>guitarist can play with the dynamics of this. It's kind of like
>>having a giant tube compressor.
>
>
> Why isn't this possible in solid state amplifiers? I'll bet it is.
> Could be you've just never wanted to believe it's possible. Or that
> since you found your sound, you just didn't worry about all the other
> possibilities. That's perfectly normal.
>
>
>
Haveing enjoyed thousands of guitarists playing through thousands of
different amps I can saftley say for myself , as a listener, it doesn't
make one ant **** of difference whether it is a hot rodded vintage
tooober or a 10 watt transistor radio that the guitarist is playing
through
if the player is skilled I am going to enjoy them equally

same goes for guitars
he could play the dinkiest Koren strat copy or Neil Youngs black beauty
or buddy hollys axe
makes NF difference (to me) it is the artist and music that I listen to
not the name plate on the amp or guitar
IMO vintage is all a freaking scam until your talking hundreds of years
A Loar signed mando averages about 100 grand right now
they do not move me any more that a 1200$ Rigel does
cross posts removed
George

[Roger W. Norman]

Then again, of the number of amps I have, one is a Traynor Mark III 100 watt
with 4 GT 6L6s and at full tilt it plays absolutely clean into an Ampeg V22
4-12 cab (the entire amp has been re-tubed). Yanked two of the 6L6s and
it's got some ability to do something else. So obviously, if the amp is
tube and it only plays clean as designed, then your speculation is
incorrect.

There are tons of factors involved, like how much voltage is being put
across the tube plates, how beefy the power transformer is, what the
efficiency of the speakers and cabinet are, etc. To simply suggest that
tubes are what make the difference is folly. And even if it were true, then
tube age would make a more pronounced difference than any tube aficionado is
going to allow for, because I've seen players with 20 year old tubes
adamantly suggesting their amp is the best whilst other players with new
tubes in their old rigs or NOS tubes in their new rigs kick the most butt.

AND I've recorded Charley Bird playing an acoustic/electric who's tone was
to die for. Unfortunately he did within a month of his last concert of
which I recorded. But the point is that the "stuff" of playing guitar is
the guitar playing, not the amp it goes through.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Yuri T." > wrote in message
om...
> play-on > wrote in message
>...
> > On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
> > >solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
> > >and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
> > >amps.
> >
> > Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
> > "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
> > the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.
> >
> > Al
>
> Yeah, that's funny. Almost everyone I know uses tube amps. Jazz
> players tend to be the exception. Then you'll see Polytones and JC
> 120s. Both of which are too clean and dry for rock, blues, etc.

[Roger W. Norman]

Would it then be possible to call for help whilst stranded in the middle of
an Ohio river flood in spring?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1101599642k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > And semiconductor
> > guys are increasingly trying to sell me lower and lower voltage parts.
For
> > God's sake, I want _higher_ operating levels, not lower ones. Take your
3V
> > rails and stick them, Maxim. I want +/-48V supplies minimum.
>
> And in your cellular phone, too.
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Paul Asbell]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

>A more appropriate assessment is that a tube amp fails in a predictable way,
>and as it fails (speakers break up, transformer sags, etc) it produces a
>sound that seems to emanate from the interaction of the player, guitar and
>amp. But it's like using a soften function on a digital photo. While the
>photo may become more pleasing on the overall view, it's actually less sharp
>and less detailed. Or, maybe it's more warm than true to the color, or
>whatever. That's why guitar players like what they hear when they've
>cranked the amp up to get the transformer to sag and why they are dumping
>100 watts into vintage 25 watt speakers, etc.
>
>I know because I bought my first electric guitar in 1961 (still have it) and
>so I have some serious guitar playing under my belt too. But the fact is
>that I've dealt with hundreds of guitar players over the years, and to a
>fault most rock players simply have no ability to determine WHY they like
>the sound of an overdriven amp, they just do, and mostly, to be totally
>honest, is because it hides most of the stuff they do wrong, and allows they
>to pin their perceived playing abilities on the amp's ability to hide what
>they don't do right.
>
>I'm sure you've run into situations where players sound good on a Les
>Paul/Marshall combination but when they get hold of an acoustic, they can't
>play for a good ****. They explain it as a difference in the way the
>guitars are set up, but the fact is they never learned good guitar technique
>in the first place. They are jammers.
>
>The reason I say this is that, like I said, I've dealt with tons of players,
>and the best ones are the ones that know the guitar inside and out, can use
>an amp or not, and can make any music they play sound good.
>
>Now I'm not doubting your abilities, Al, I'm just making a generalized
>statement here from my experiences over the years. Guitar players are a
>dime a dozen, but good guitar players are more like $100 per pound. Gantt
>Kushner, here locally in DC is an example of a good guitar player. His amp
>is a Bogner, and while it can crank and kick with the best of the blues boys
>in town, it's capable enough to allow him to do anything his playing
>abilities can come up with. Then there's Steve Abshire, Paul Bollenbach,
>Paul Winger, and a number of other fantastically good players that can sit
>in on any session or live event without so much as a "what key" statement.
>I'd say fully 98% of the guitar players out there don't fit this mold.
>
>So I'd suggest that the tale of the vintage guitar amp is a tale of minimal
>pages in the runes of guitar playing. While certain amps seem to work best
>for the majority, it's the spectacular that belie the myth.
>
>
>

Good, thoughtful post here, Roger.

There's a reason that many savvy players use the word "forgiving" to
describe certain amps and guitars. It is sometimes used as a compliment,
to indicate that the amp or guitar makes 'good sounds" regardless of how
its played. A lot of compression, harmonic distortion, amp/speaker sag,
or spacial FX like 'verb or cathedral-like delay can have that effect on
certain players.

But a great player may wish for a more "accurate" translator of his
technique, so that a wide variety of tone shadings can be under his
voluntary control. That sort of player will feel more comfortable with
an acoustic guitar, for example, and also with a less "forgiving" amp
that translates more faithfully the details of his right hand picking
technique and dynamics. I think you're referring to players like that in
your description above, Roger.

A quick note- this issue is not NECESSARILY a solid-state vs tubes one.
For example, within the world of tube amps, there are amps based more on
the Blackface Fender models which tend to compress less, have a
pronounced treble peak, etc, and others in the modded hi-gain Marshall
camp that are made to overdrive easily, compress a lot, and produce a
recognizable, familiar tone no matter HOW the guitar is played, and by
whom. Different players will like one or the other, or possibly both...
but one amp is far more "forgiving" than the other. Also, one is capable
of being more tonally variable and individually expressive than the
other. When a player says he loves the "tube amp tone", it's not clear
which quality he's referring to... but it's often one or the other, but
not both.


Paul


Paul Asbell

www.paulasbell.com

[play-on]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:23:02 -0500, "Roger W. Norman"
> wrote:

>A more appropriate assessment is that a tube amp fails in a predictable way,
>and as it fails (speakers break up, transformer sags, etc) it produces a
>sound that seems to emanate from the interaction of the player, guitar and
>amp. But it's like using a soften function on a digital photo. While the
>photo may become more pleasing on the overall view, it's actually less sharp
>and less detailed. Or, maybe it's more warm than true to the color, or
>whatever. That's why guitar players like what they hear when they've
>cranked the amp up to get the transformer to sag and why they are dumping
>100 watts into vintage 25 watt speakers, etc.
>
>I know because I bought my first electric guitar in 1961 (still have it) and
>so I have some serious guitar playing under my belt too. But the fact is
>that I've dealt with hundreds of guitar players over the years, and to a
>fault most rock players simply have no ability to determine WHY they like
>the sound of an overdriven amp, they just do, and mostly, to be totally
>honest, is because it hides most of the stuff they do wrong, and allows they
>to pin their perceived playing abilities on the amp's ability to hide what
>they don't do right.
>
>I'm sure you've run into situations where players sound good on a Les
>Paul/Marshall combination but when they get hold of an acoustic, they can't
>play for a good ****. They explain it as a difference in the way the
>guitars are set up, but the fact is they never learned good guitar technique
>in the first place. They are jammers.
>
>The reason I say this is that, like I said, I've dealt with tons of players,
>and the best ones are the ones that know the guitar inside and out, can use
>an amp or not, and can make any music they play sound good.

I can do that. But I still prefer tube amps given the choice.

>Now I'm not doubting your abilities, Al, I'm just making a generalized
>statement here from my experiences over the years. Guitar players are a
>dime a dozen, but good guitar players are more like $100 per pound. Gantt
>Kushner, here locally in DC is an example of a good guitar player. His amp
>is a Bogner, and while it can crank and kick with the best of the blues boys
>in town, it's capable enough to allow him to do anything his playing
>abilities can come up with. Then there's Steve Abshire, Paul Bollenbach,
>Paul Winger, and a number of other fantastically good players that can sit
>in on any session or live event without so much as a "what key" statement.
>I'd say fully 98% of the guitar players out there don't fit this mold.

I wasn't talking from the perspective of wanna-bees or kids who can't
really play. Just for your future reference, I've been playing
professionally since 1972... I've been lucky enough to work with some
really great people, many of them legends of American popular music.
I've done network television, major label albums, toured the country,
done theatrical gigs, and have played in pretty much every possible
venue, from the high to the low.

>So I'd suggest that the tale of the vintage guitar amp is a tale of minimal
>pages in the runes of guitar playing.

It's not about vintage, it's about tubes. I usually use newer tube
amps for live work & use smaller vintage amps in the studio.

While certain amps seem to work best
>for the majority, it's the spectacular that belie the myth.

I rarely use my amps pushed really hard & turned up super loud as I'm
not really a "rock" player. I can, and have gotten good guitar sounds
going into a solid state amp, or even going direct. It's in the
fingers, not the gear. But, I still vastly prefer tube amps, more for
the clean (but "colored") tone they get than for the balls-to-the-wall
overdrive. The overdriven sound with solid state modeling amps is
actually pretty good, where they can't compete in my book is in the
warm, low gain tones. I haven't yet heard a solid state amp that can
sound like a nice Fender tube amp with the volume on "3".

Al

[play-on]

On 30 Nov 2004 11:39:32 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:
>
>> >This is "attitude" for sure.
>>
>> No Mike, it's not. Listen, I've been playing as a pro guitarist for
>> over 30 years, and I have tried just about every amp over the years.
>
>It sounds like you have an "attitude" there. You've been playing for
>30 years so you know what's right.

I know what's right for me -- why shouldn't I, after so many years of
experience? I'm speaking for myself... that is "attitude"???
Everyone else is welcome to play thru whatever they want... but the
fast point is many many pro guitarists agree with my preference for
tube amps.

>YOu have a preference, and that's fine. It's your craft. When you
>insist that the other kind doesn't feel right to you, that's
>"attitude."

Why? It's not an attitude, if it doesn't feel right, it doesn't...
end of story.
>
>> Tube amps are a "feel" thing -- as he said, it's a bit like keyboard
>> action. A tube amp, when pushed, pushes back a little bit and the
>> guitarist can play with the dynamics of this. It's kind of like
>> having a giant tube compressor.
>
>Why isn't this possible in solid state amplifiers? I'll bet it is.
>Could be you've just never wanted to believe it's possible. Or that
>since you found your sound, you just didn't worry about all the other
>possibilities. That's perfectly normal.

The modelling amps have tried hard to emulate that feel of tube amps,
and they are getting better all the time, especially with the
overdriven sounds. I played a Vox "Valvetronix" amp at Guitar Center
the other day that sounded damn good. But for a pretty, smooth,
slightly compressed clean or semi-clean sound, that reacts that
certain way, tube amps still rule for me personally. I still have not
played a modelling amp that can give you the touchy-feely response.
You are welcome to use whatever you want... go for it... but wait a
minute, you don't even play the electric guitar, do you? See, it's
not just about the sound... to a non-player, the sound may be almost
the same. But for the guy playing, it's the response that makes the
difference.

Al

[play-on]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:32:50 -0500, "Roger W. Norman"
> wrote:

>But the point is that the "stuff" of playing guitar is
>the guitar playing, not the amp it goes through.

Certainly... it's the guy not the gear in the final analysis. That
doesn't stop people from wanting the best gear they can get. When you
start talking about electric guitar, in many generes the amp has
become part of the instrument, not just a way to make the guitar
louder. A guitarist can be as picky about an amp as he might be about
a guitar.

Al

[Paul Asbell]

....

>>So I'd suggest that the tale of the vintage guitar amp is a tale of minimal
>>pages in the runes of guitar playing.
>>
>>
>
>It's not about vintage, it's about tubes. I usually use newer tube
>amps for live work & use smaller vintage amps in the studio.
>
> While certain amps seem to work best
>
>
>>for the majority, it's the spectacular that belie the myth.
>>
>>
>
>I rarely use my amps pushed really hard & turned up super loud as I'm
>not really a "rock" player. I can, and have gotten good guitar sounds
>going into a solid state amp, or even going direct. It's in the
>fingers, not the gear. But, I still vastly prefer tube amps, more for
>the clean (but "colored") tone they get than for the balls-to-the-wall
>overdrive. The overdriven sound with solid state modeling amps is
>actually pretty good, where they can't compete in my book is in the
>warm, low gain tones. I haven't yet heard a solid state amp that can
>sound like a nice Fender tube amp with the volume on "3".
>
>Al
>
>

Yes... what Al said goes for a LOT of highly experienced, expert
players... myself included.


Paul


Paul Asbell

www.paulasbell.com

[Lord Valve]

Paul Asbell wrote:

> ...
>
> >>So I'd suggest that the tale of the vintage guitar amp is a tale of minimal
> >>pages in the runes of guitar playing.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It's not about vintage, it's about tubes. I usually use newer tube
> >amps for live work & use smaller vintage amps in the studio.
> >
> > While certain amps seem to work best
> >
> >
> >>for the majority, it's the spectacular that belie the myth.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I rarely use my amps pushed really hard & turned up super loud as I'm
> >not really a "rock" player. I can, and have gotten good guitar sounds
> >going into a solid state amp, or even going direct. It's in the
> >fingers, not the gear. But, I still vastly prefer tube amps, more for
> >the clean (but "colored") tone they get than for the balls-to-the-wall
> >overdrive. The overdriven sound with solid state modeling amps is
> >actually pretty good, where they can't compete in my book is in the
> >warm, low gain tones. I haven't yet heard a solid state amp that can
> >sound like a nice Fender tube amp with the volume on "3".
> >
> >Al
> >
> >
>
> Yes... what Al said goes for a LOT of highly experienced, expert
> players... myself included.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Asbell
>
> www.paulasbell.com


The amps I built for Derek Trucks to use with the Allman Brothers Band are
tubers.

Stage level was a problem. The Allmans use *three*
drummers at the same time, and they work huge
venues. DT had been using a SS Randall, which
was plenty loud, but it lacked something he was looking
for, especially in the feedback characteristics. DT does
a lot of controlled feedback stuff - super tasty, in fact -
and while he was getting exactly what he needed out of
the (LV-tweaked) '65 BFSR which he was using with
his own band, he couldn't use it with the Allmans. It just
wasn't loud enough. Ordinarily, when a stage level problem
is encountered, the fix is to bring the amp's mike up in the
monitor mix - but that *doesn't work* for guitar feedback
technique. DT doesn't sing, and he hates monitors anyway.
That's one of the reasons his own band (the Derek
Trucks Band) carries two full-size Leslies instead
of just one small one - DT likes to hear the real thing,
because a Leslie simply doesn't sound "right" through
a monitor. What he needed for the ABB tour was
the Super Reverb from Hell, and that's what I built him -
a modified Super Six, jacked up to 118 watts output,
running Mercury Magnetics iron through six custom-built
Weber 10" "Pyle clone" speakers. A few proprietary
tweaks here and there, to be sure. ;-) I delivered another
one back in April when the ABB rolled through Denver,
and since then he's taken to using BOTH of them at
the same time, especially outdoors. He can stand
further from his rig and still do his feedback tricks
that way (so he says).

BTW - all you FX freaks might want to know about
DT's processing gear:

It's called a guitar cord. ;-)

Catch DT with the ABB or his own band (which
I prefer) and you won't soon forget it.

Lord Valve

[Mike Rivers]

In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:

> I know what's right for me -- why shouldn't I, after so many years of
> experience? I'm speaking for myself... that is "attitude"???

Not when you make it clear that it's your preference. But when you
declare that a tube amplifier is better, and then use your experience
to back that up, it's what I call attitude. Call it what you want, or
nothing.

> Everyone else is welcome to play thru whatever they want... but the
> fast point is many many pro guitarists agree with my preference for
> tube amps.

Hey, many people had a preference for George Bush, too. That doesn't
mean he's better than the other guy.

> You are welcome to use whatever you want... go for it... but wait a
> minute, you don't even play the electric guitar, do you?

Well, no, but I understand what you're talking about. However if solid
state amplifiers didn't work for guitar players, they wouldn't sell so
many of them. I'll admit that there ARE a lot of tube amplifier out
there - it's the largest market for vacuum tubes so they must be doing
something right. But I know a lot of guitar players who have learnd to
become comfortable with solid stage amps and choose to use them for
their primary benefits - size, weight, and reliability.

> See, it's
> not just about the sound... to a non-player, the sound may be almost
> the same. But for the guy playing, it's the response that makes the
> difference.

I can say the same about banjos. But there isn't just one kind of
banjo that I'm comfortable playing.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Paul Asbell]

Lord Valve wrote:

>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I rarely use my amps pushed really hard & turned up super loud as I'm
>>>not really a "rock" player. I can, and have gotten good guitar sounds
>>>going into a solid state amp, or even going direct. It's in the
>>>fingers, not the gear. But, I still vastly prefer tube amps, more for
>>>the clean (but "colored") tone they get than for the balls-to-the-wall
>>>overdrive. The overdriven sound with solid state modeling amps is
>>>actually pretty good, where they can't compete in my book is in the
>>>warm, low gain tones. I haven't yet heard a solid state amp that can
>>>sound like a nice Fender tube amp with the volume on "3".
>>>
>>>Al
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Yes... what Al said goes for a LOT of highly experienced, expert
>>players... myself included.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>Paul Asbell

>>www.paulasbell.com
>>
>>
>
>
>The amps I built for Derek Trucks to use with the Allman Brothers Band are
>tubers.
>
>Stage level was a problem. The Allmans use *three*
>drummers at the same time, and they work huge
>venues. DT had been using a SS Randall, which
>was plenty loud, but it lacked something he was looking
>for, especially in the feedback characteristics. DT does
>a lot of controlled feedback stuff - super tasty, in fact -
>and while he was getting exactly what he needed out of
>the (LV-tweaked) '65 BFSR which he was using with
>his own band, he couldn't use it with the Allmans. It just
>wasn't loud enough. Ordinarily, when a stage level problem
>is encountered, the fix is to bring the amp's mike up in the
>monitor mix - but that *doesn't work* for guitar feedback
>technique. DT doesn't sing, and he hates monitors anyway.
>That's one of the reasons his own band (the Derek
>Trucks Band) carries two full-size Leslies instead
>of just one small one - DT likes to hear the real thing,
>because a Leslie simply doesn't sound "right" through
>a monitor. What he needed for the ABB tour was
>the Super Reverb from Hell, and that's what I built him -
>a modified Super Six, jacked up to 118 watts output,
>running Mercury Magnetics iron through six custom-built
>Weber 10" "Pyle clone" speakers. A few proprietary
>tweaks here and there, to be sure. ;-) I delivered another
>one back in April when the ABB rolled through Denver,
>and since then he's taken to using BOTH of them at
>the same time, especially outdoors. He can stand
>further from his rig and still do his feedback tricks
>that way (so he says).
>
>BTW - all you FX freaks might want to know about
>DT's processing gear:
>
>It's called a guitar cord. ;-)
>
>Catch DT with the ABB or his own band (which
>I prefer) and you won't soon forget it.
>
>Lord Valve
>
>
>
>

I'm not personally a huge ABB fan, but Derek and his band is definitely
a personal fave. I love his sound in that group... if you're in part
responsible for his SR sounding so good, Congrats!

I have also longed for the "just like my SR, but louder"... sounds like
you nailed it for DT.

--
Best regards

Paul


Paul Asbell

www.paulasbell.com

[play-on]

On 1 Dec 2004 08:21:32 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>> You are welcome to use whatever you want... go for it... but wait a
>> minute, you don't even play the electric guitar, do you?
>
>Well, no, but I understand what you're talking about. However if solid
>state amplifiers didn't work for guitar players, they wouldn't sell so
>many of them. I'll admit that there ARE a lot of tube amplifier out
>there - it's the largest market for vacuum tubes so they must be doing
>something right. But I know a lot of guitar players who have learnd to
>become comfortable with solid stage amps and choose to use them for
>their primary benefits - size, weight, and reliability.

Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
the #1 thing. I don't particularly enjoy lugging heavy amps around,
but I'm glad to do it to get a sound that I like. As far as
reliability many SS amps are not that reliable. Sure you don't have
to change tubes with them, but when they do develop problems, they can
be more difficult to troubleshoot and repair. I have a 1960 Fender
Bassman, it has *never* failed on a job since I bought it in 1980. OF
course I've had to have maintenance done, but the thing is just an
overbuilt workhorse. The only time I had a problem with it in almost
25 years was in a rehearsal when it fried a resistor across one of the
power tubes.

The main reason so many SS amps are sold is that they are relatively
inexpensive.

>> See, it's
>> not just about the sound... to a non-player, the sound may be almost
>> the same. But for the guy playing, it's the response that makes the
>> difference.
>
>I can say the same about banjos. But there isn't just one kind of
>banjo that I'm comfortable playing.

I play more than one kind of guitar amp too... but they all happen to
use tubes.

Al

[play-on]

On 1 Dec 2004 08:21:32 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>> You are welcome to use whatever you want... go for it... but wait a
>> minute, you don't even play the electric guitar, do you?
>
>Well, no, but I understand what you're talking about. However if solid
>state amplifiers didn't work for guitar players, they wouldn't sell so
>many of them. I'll admit that there ARE a lot of tube amplifier out
>there - it's the largest market for vacuum tubes so they must be doing
>something right. But I know a lot of guitar players who have learnd to
>become comfortable with solid stage amps and choose to use them for
>their primary benefits - size, weight, and reliability.

Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
the #1 thing. I don't particularly enjoy lugging heavy amps around,
but I'm glad to do it to get a sound that I like. As far as
reliability many SS amps are not that reliable. Sure you don't have
to change tubes with them, but when they do develop problems, they can
be more difficult to troubleshoot and repair. I have a 1960 Fender
Bassman, it has *never* failed on a job since I bought it in 1980. OF
course I've had to have maintenance done, but the thing is just an
overbuilt workhorse. The only time I had a problem with it in almost
25 years was in a rehearsal when it fried a resistor across one of the
power tubes.

The main reason so many SS amps are sold is that they are relatively
inexpensive.

>> See, it's
>> not just about the sound... to a non-player, the sound may be almost
>> the same. But for the guy playing, it's the response that makes the
>> difference.
>
>I can say the same about banjos. But there isn't just one kind of
>banjo that I'm comfortable playing.

I play more than one kind of guitar amp too... but they all happen to
use tubes.

Al

[Mike Rivers]

In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:

> Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
> tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
> the #1 thing.

I did say "become comfortable with" and that doesn't mean being lazy,
I meant getting a sound they like out of it. You say you can't, I say
you don't care enough to try hard enough, and that's all right if you
don't mind lugging around a heavy amp and changing tubes.

There used to be a rock bar band around here that carried a small
grand piano with them because the pianist didn't like the sound of the
electronic pianos of the period (this was 20 years ago or more). They
took the legs off so they could put it in a van and set it up on stage
on milk creates. Four of them could handle it, the fifth carried his
own drums in. But I'll bet that today he plays something he can carry
under one arm.

But suit yourself.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:

> Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
> tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
> the #1 thing.

I did say "become comfortable with" and that doesn't mean being lazy,
I meant getting a sound they like out of it. You say you can't, I say
you don't care enough to try hard enough, and that's all right if you
don't mind lugging around a heavy amp and changing tubes.

There used to be a rock bar band around here that carried a small
grand piano with them because the pianist didn't like the sound of the
electronic pianos of the period (this was 20 years ago or more). They
took the legs off so they could put it in a van and set it up on stage
on milk creates. Four of them could handle it, the fifth carried his
own drums in. But I'll bet that today he plays something he can carry
under one arm.

But suit yourself.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Yuri T.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101769678k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
>
> This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
> players.


LOL and this goes hand in hand with 'attitude' when it comes to engineers.

[Yuri T.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101769678k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
>
> This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
> players.


LOL and this goes hand in hand with 'attitude' when it comes to engineers.

[Yuri T.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101933683k@trad>...
> In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:
>
> > Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
> > tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
> > the #1 thing.
>
> I did say "become comfortable with" and that doesn't mean being lazy,
> I meant getting a sound they like out of it. You say you can't, I say
> you don't care enough to try hard enough, and that's all right if you
> don't mind lugging around a heavy amp and changing tubes.
>
> There used to be a rock bar band around here that carried a small
> grand piano with them because the pianist didn't like the sound of the
> electronic pianos of the period (this was 20 years ago or more). They
> took the legs off so they could put it in a van and set it up on stage
> on milk creates. Four of them could handle it, the fifth carried his
> own drums in. But I'll bet that today he plays something he can carry
> under one arm.
>
> But suit yourself.


Geez Mike, what did a guitar player ever do to you? So get
'comfortable with' getting a sound out of a pair of SM57s at a chamber
recital you are recording. They are good quality reliable microphones
and you are lazy if you don't keep trying harder to get the sound you
want out of them instead of pulling out that pair of Sheops that make
your ears happy.

I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's. The amp
is almost half of the insrument. There have been some solid state or
hybrid amps that I like. I certainly could use one if I needed to.
Tubes are no crutch. But I always and up with a tube amp. I own and
gig with a 1965 Fender Vibrolux. 35 watts, not overly loud or heavy
and it has never failed me. I also have a Bogner which is a wonderful
amp but a bit too much for many of the gigs I play.

As usual non-guitarists just don't get it. Same as non-trumpet players
don't understand the whole mouthpiece thing. Like non-engineers don't
get the whole mic-pre thing. They won't necessarily hear the
difference between a Rolls mic pre or a Hardy.


Okay Rant off. Have a good one Mike.

[Yuri T.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1101933683k@trad>...
> In article > playonATcomcast.net writes:
>
> > Right, size, weight, and reliability... I notice you didn't mention
> > tone or sound as a "primary benefit". For serious guitarists tone is
> > the #1 thing.
>
> I did say "become comfortable with" and that doesn't mean being lazy,
> I meant getting a sound they like out of it. You say you can't, I say
> you don't care enough to try hard enough, and that's all right if you
> don't mind lugging around a heavy amp and changing tubes.
>
> There used to be a rock bar band around here that carried a small
> grand piano with them because the pianist didn't like the sound of the
> electronic pianos of the period (this was 20 years ago or more). They
> took the legs off so they could put it in a van and set it up on stage
> on milk creates. Four of them could handle it, the fifth carried his
> own drums in. But I'll bet that today he plays something he can carry
> under one arm.
>
> But suit yourself.


Geez Mike, what did a guitar player ever do to you? So get
'comfortable with' getting a sound out of a pair of SM57s at a chamber
recital you are recording. They are good quality reliable microphones
and you are lazy if you don't keep trying harder to get the sound you
want out of them instead of pulling out that pair of Sheops that make
your ears happy.

I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's. The amp
is almost half of the insrument. There have been some solid state or
hybrid amps that I like. I certainly could use one if I needed to.
Tubes are no crutch. But I always and up with a tube amp. I own and
gig with a 1965 Fender Vibrolux. 35 watts, not overly loud or heavy
and it has never failed me. I also have a Bogner which is a wonderful
amp but a bit too much for many of the gigs I play.

As usual non-guitarists just don't get it. Same as non-trumpet players
don't understand the whole mouthpiece thing. Like non-engineers don't
get the whole mic-pre thing. They won't necessarily hear the
difference between a Rolls mic pre or a Hardy.


Okay Rant off. Have a good one Mike.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Geez Mike, what did a guitar player ever do to you?

Only insist that tubes were better, that's all.

> So get
> 'comfortable with' getting a sound out of a pair of SM57s at a chamber
> recital you are recording. They are good quality reliable microphones
> and you are lazy if you don't keep trying harder to get the sound you
> want out of them instead of pulling out that pair of Sheops that make
> your ears happy.

Done that. But now I have better. But I don't have one microphone that
I use for that application because I'm "comfortable" with it, I
realize that some variety is nice, and it doesn't have to sound the
same all the time. Also, when it comes to microphones, you have to
consider the venue - there are directivity patterns that work better
in some venues than others. I suspect that it's the same with guitar
amplifiers, too. An experienced player wouldn't use the same amplifier
in a coffee house (and turn it down) that he'd use in an arena (and
put a mic on it). So saying that tubes are best is like saying
condenser mics or tube mics or ribbons are the best. It depends.

> I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
> through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
> stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's. The amp
> is almost half of the insrument.

I'll go along with that, except that you can't make a bad guitar good
by playing it through a great amplifier. But a good player can do a
good job with almost any setup. He might not be able to do what he
considers his best every time, but then who does?

> As usual non-guitarists just don't get it. Same as non-trumpet players
> don't understand the whole mouthpiece thing. Like non-engineers don't
> get the whole mic-pre thing. They won't necessarily hear the
> difference between a Rolls mic pre or a Hardy.

And this is a bad thing? If they're good engineers and produce a good
final product, who cares what they use? Well, the engineer might
because he might have to work harder mixing through a Mackie than
through an API, but that's life. Like a famous guitar player once
said: "You can't always get what you want." But I suppose that if you
buy it and haul it, you get what you think you need.

I have nothing against tube amplifiers or people who use them. I only
have it in for people who insist that it's the only way to design a
useful amplifier, because it isn't.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Geez Mike, what did a guitar player ever do to you?

Only insist that tubes were better, that's all.

> So get
> 'comfortable with' getting a sound out of a pair of SM57s at a chamber
> recital you are recording. They are good quality reliable microphones
> and you are lazy if you don't keep trying harder to get the sound you
> want out of them instead of pulling out that pair of Sheops that make
> your ears happy.

Done that. But now I have better. But I don't have one microphone that
I use for that application because I'm "comfortable" with it, I
realize that some variety is nice, and it doesn't have to sound the
same all the time. Also, when it comes to microphones, you have to
consider the venue - there are directivity patterns that work better
in some venues than others. I suspect that it's the same with guitar
amplifiers, too. An experienced player wouldn't use the same amplifier
in a coffee house (and turn it down) that he'd use in an arena (and
put a mic on it). So saying that tubes are best is like saying
condenser mics or tube mics or ribbons are the best. It depends.

> I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
> through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
> stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's. The amp
> is almost half of the insrument.

I'll go along with that, except that you can't make a bad guitar good
by playing it through a great amplifier. But a good player can do a
good job with almost any setup. He might not be able to do what he
considers his best every time, but then who does?

> As usual non-guitarists just don't get it. Same as non-trumpet players
> don't understand the whole mouthpiece thing. Like non-engineers don't
> get the whole mic-pre thing. They won't necessarily hear the
> difference between a Rolls mic pre or a Hardy.

And this is a bad thing? If they're good engineers and produce a good
final product, who cares what they use? Well, the engineer might
because he might have to work harder mixing through a Mackie than
through an API, but that's life. Like a famous guitar player once
said: "You can't always get what you want." But I suppose that if you
buy it and haul it, you get what you think you need.

I have nothing against tube amplifiers or people who use them. I only
have it in for people who insist that it's the only way to design a
useful amplifier, because it isn't.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[BLCKOUT420]

this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell you
they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp, just as
there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds just
as good as that $100,000 console.

[BLCKOUT420]

this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell you
they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp, just as
there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds just
as good as that $100,000 console.

[Lord Valve]

Yuri T. wrote:

> I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
> through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
> stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's.

Hey, a DC boy...

I worked at Chuck's before you were born, whippersnapper. ;-)
Hell, my band used to go downtown to Chuck's when we
needed gear. (I can't remember where it was - 7th avenue?
It got burned down in the MLK riots and that's when he moved
to Wheaton.) We bought from Veneman's, too. I bought my
first Hammond from the Wheaton Hammond Organ Studio,
which was about 100 feet from Chuck's front door. (Ain't
there no more.) I got my first Leslie from Chuck's (in Wheaton).

So - does DC still suck? ;-)

Lord Valve
Old

[Lord Valve]

Yuri T. wrote:

> I've been playing guitar since I was 10, now 36. I've have played
> through literally 100's of amplifiers. I worked at 3 different music
> stores in the past. Chuck Levin's, Veneman's and Zavarella's.

Hey, a DC boy...

I worked at Chuck's before you were born, whippersnapper. ;-)
Hell, my band used to go downtown to Chuck's when we
needed gear. (I can't remember where it was - 7th avenue?
It got burned down in the MLK riots and that's when he moved
to Wheaton.) We bought from Veneman's, too. I bought my
first Hammond from the Wheaton Hammond Organ Studio,
which was about 100 feet from Chuck's front door. (Ain't
there no more.) I got my first Leslie from Chuck's (in Wheaton).

So - does DC still suck? ;-)

Lord Valve
Old

[Scott Dorsey]

Lord Valve > wrote:
>
>So - does DC still suck? ;-)

It's only sucked since Charlie Byrd died and Ramsey Lewis left town.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Lord Valve > wrote:
>
>So - does DC still suck? ;-)

It's only sucked since Charlie Byrd died and Ramsey Lewis left town.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell you
> they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp, just as
> there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds just
> as good as that $100,000 console.

'Scuse me? What thread were you reading?

Nobody said that. If you bring your tube amp to my studio, I'll
happily record it. If it doesn't sound right with the song, you can be
the judge (though I might suggest something else). If you don't bring
your own favoirite amp to the studio and haven't made arrangements to
have one waiting for you there (and hope the amp we get sounds just
like they one you have at home), then you apparently don't care enough
about those things.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell you
> they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp, just as
> there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds just
> as good as that $100,000 console.

'Scuse me? What thread were you reading?

Nobody said that. If you bring your tube amp to my studio, I'll
happily record it. If it doesn't sound right with the song, you can be
the judge (though I might suggest something else). If you don't bring
your own favoirite amp to the studio and haven't made arrangements to
have one waiting for you there (and hope the amp we get sounds just
like they one you have at home), then you apparently don't care enough
about those things.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I worked at Chuck's before you were born, whippersnapper. ;-)
> Hell, my band used to go downtown to Chuck's when we
> needed gear. (I can't remember where it was - 7th avenue?

11th and H Street NE. That was a really cool shop.

> We bought from Veneman's, too.

They were the first local dealer to have a dedicated department for
audio gear when they opened their first Rockville store. I think
Bradley Broadcast still exists.

> So - does DC still suck? ;-)

For local music venues, yes - or at least it does now. We used to have
some pretty good places and there are a few good clubs but they're
expensive and for the most part only book people whose CDs you can buy
anywhere. But the food is good.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I worked at Chuck's before you were born, whippersnapper. ;-)
> Hell, my band used to go downtown to Chuck's when we
> needed gear. (I can't remember where it was - 7th avenue?

11th and H Street NE. That was a really cool shop.

> We bought from Veneman's, too.

They were the first local dealer to have a dedicated department for
audio gear when they opened their first Rockville store. I think
Bradley Broadcast still exists.

> So - does DC still suck? ;-)

For local music venues, yes - or at least it does now. We used to have
some pretty good places and there are a few good clubs but they're
expensive and for the most part only book people whose CDs you can buy
anywhere. But the food is good.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Andre Jute]

Lord Valve > wrote in message >...

> Lord Valve
> Old

Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, poet of thermionic truth

Arm the wrinklies! - Andre Jute, libertarian

[Andre Jute]

Lord Valve > wrote in message >...

> Lord Valve
> Old

Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, poet of thermionic truth

Arm the wrinklies! - Andre Jute, libertarian

[Geoff Wood]

"Yuri T." > wrote in message
om...
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1101769678k@trad>...
>> In article >
>> writes:
>>
>> > Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
>>
>> This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
>> players.
>
>
> LOL and this goes hand in hand with 'attitude' when it comes to engineers.

Just heard (again) on the radio some folklore regarding Keith Richards
getting "knocked out" by a shock off a mic with a
ground-fault-power-problem, lying there semi-comatose for 7 minutes, then
getting up and carrying on playing his guitar as if nothing had happened.

Truth be known, it did actually kill him - he's looked post-mortem pretty
much ever since. Mind you, he looked a bid ghoulish before too ...

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"Yuri T." > wrote in message
om...
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1101769678k@trad>...
>> In article >
>> writes:
>>
>> > Umm, c'mon Mike it's about more than 'attitude'. It's about TONE.
>>
>> This goes hand in hand with "attitude" when it comes to guitar
>> players.
>
>
> LOL and this goes hand in hand with 'attitude' when it comes to engineers.

Just heard (again) on the radio some folklore regarding Keith Richards
getting "knocked out" by a shock off a mic with a
ground-fault-power-problem, lying there semi-comatose for 7 minutes, then
getting up and carrying on playing his guitar as if nothing had happened.

Truth be known, it did actually kill him - he's looked post-mortem pretty
much ever since. Mind you, he looked a bid ghoulish before too ...

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"BLCKOUT420" > wrote in message
...
> this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell
> you
> they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp,
> just as
> there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds
> just
> as good as that $100,000 console.

I've never met an engineer who would claim anything like that.

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

"BLCKOUT420" > wrote in message
...
> this thread has made me realize that there are engineers that will tell
> you
> they can get the same sounds from a transistor amp as from a tube amp,
> just as
> there are guitar players that will tell you that their mackie 32-8 sounds
> just
> as good as that $100,000 console.

I've never met an engineer who would claim anything like that.

geoff

[DeserTBoB]

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 16:17:51 +1300, "Geoff Wood"
> wrote:

>I've never met an engineer who would claim anything like that. <snip>

Well, there are engineers and then there are the "injunears," usually
retreaded gee-tawr players with a 3rd grade reading level...like
Pittman, for example!

dB

[DeserTBoB]

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 16:17:51 +1300, "Geoff Wood"
> wrote:

>I've never met an engineer who would claim anything like that. <snip>

Well, there are engineers and then there are the "injunears," usually
retreaded gee-tawr players with a 3rd grade reading level...like
Pittman, for example!

dB

[Mike brown]

In article >,
(Andre Jute) wrote:

> Lord Valve > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Lord Valve
> > Old
>
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, poet of
thermionic truth
>
> Arm the wrinklies! - Andre Jute, libertarian


Ahhh.

Do not go gentle into that good night.


It takes on a new and slightly different meaning when you are 70 and on
your own.

I still like it though.

MJRB

[Mike brown]

In article >,
(Andre Jute) wrote:

> Lord Valve > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Lord Valve
> > Old
>
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, poet of
thermionic truth
>
> Arm the wrinklies! - Andre Jute, libertarian


Ahhh.

Do not go gentle into that good night.


It takes on a new and slightly different meaning when you are 70 and on
your own.

I still like it though.

MJRB

[james of tucson]

On 2004-12-04, Geoff Wood > wrote:

> Truth be known, it did actually kill him - he's looked post-mortem pretty
> much ever since. Mind you, he looked a bid ghoulish before too ...

I have a Rolling Stone paper from 1972 (It wasn't anything you could
call a magazine yet, if you remember), that has a 4-fold picture of
Keith. He looks entirely corpselike in this picture too.

[james of tucson]

On 2004-12-04, Geoff Wood > wrote:

> Truth be known, it did actually kill him - he's looked post-mortem pretty
> much ever since. Mind you, he looked a bid ghoulish before too ...

I have a Rolling Stone paper from 1972 (It wasn't anything you could
call a magazine yet, if you remember), that has a 4-fold picture of
Keith. He looks entirely corpselike in this picture too.

[Bill Vermillion]

In article >, Roger W. Norman
> wrote:

>A more appropriate assessment is that a tube amp fails in a
>predictable way, and as it fails (speakers break up, transformer
>sags, etc) it produces a sound that seems to emanate from the
>interaction of the player, guitar and amp.

And the story is that when recording the Marty Robbin's "Don't
Worry 'Bout Me" the bass player hit a note and it was distorted.

A tube had fallen out. He put it back, and then the producer
decided he liked it better with it out. Thus the first 'fuzztone'
was born.

A few days later Grady Martin recorded a song featuring this
new sound called "The Fuzz". This dates to about 1958 - and
remember playing both on the radio then. Of course only one
becamse a hit.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

[Randy Yates]

(Bill Vermillion) writes:

> In article >, Roger W. Norman
> > wrote:
>
> >A more appropriate assessment is that a tube amp fails in a
> >predictable way, and as it fails (speakers break up, transformer
> >sags, etc) it produces a sound that seems to emanate from the
> >interaction of the player, guitar and amp.
>
> And the story is that when recording the Marty Robbin's "Don't
> Worry 'Bout Me" the bass player hit a note and it was distorted.
>
> A tube had fallen out. He put it back, and then the producer
> decided he liked it better with it out. Thus the first 'fuzztone'
> was born.
>
> A few days later Grady Martin recorded a song featuring this
> new sound called "The Fuzz". This dates to about 1958 - and
> remember playing both on the radio then. Of course only one
> becamse a hit.

Hey Bill - thanks for a great story!
--
Randy Yates
Sony Ericsson Mobile Communications
Research Triangle Park, NC, USA
, 919-472-1124