looking for good portable/field recorder

[Bert Aerts]

hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
power would be cool...
any advice?

[Logan Shaw]

Bert Aerts wrote:

> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...

Haven't used it, but Marantz PMD670 is one to consider:

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1582&CatID=19&SubCatID=180

It has phantom power, it's stereo, and it records to CompactFlash.

Also haven't used these, but you could consider the Edirol R-1 or R-4:

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

I don't think the R-1 has phantom power or standard XLR mic inputs.
A web search indicates the R-4 is new and isn't shipping yet. I think
the same thing goes for the R-1.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Bert Aerts wrote:

> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...

Haven't used it, but Marantz PMD670 is one to consider:

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1582&CatID=19&SubCatID=180

It has phantom power, it's stereo, and it records to CompactFlash.

Also haven't used these, but you could consider the Edirol R-1 or R-4:

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

I don't think the R-1 has phantom power or standard XLR mic inputs.
A web search indicates the R-4 is new and isn't shipping yet. I think
the same thing goes for the R-1.

- Logan

[Scott Dorsey]

Bert Aerts > wrote:
>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>power would be cool...
>any advice?

What's your budget?
The Edirol looks nice... the Deva is popular. A used HHb DAT deck is nice
too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Bert Aerts > wrote:
>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>power would be cool...
>any advice?

What's your budget?
The Edirol looks nice... the Deva is popular. A used HHb DAT deck is nice
too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...

How much money/time/space do you have? If you're dreaming of and "I
only need . . . " price, dream on. This product category is becoming
split in two directions - on the low end, toys, and on the high end,
products that are targeted to the film sound market (though there's a
range of low to high there).

Marantz and Fostex both make recorders that use a flash memory card
(the Fostex can take a micro drive but I don't recall the Marantz
makes that claim), Sound Devices has a two-channel hard disk recorder,
and Edirol has recently come up with a couple of attractive units, one
in the "advanced toy" category, one in the "low high end" category,
with four channels.

But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the
professional grade portable DAT recorder.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...

How much money/time/space do you have? If you're dreaming of and "I
only need . . . " price, dream on. This product category is becoming
split in two directions - on the low end, toys, and on the high end,
products that are targeted to the film sound market (though there's a
range of low to high there).

Marantz and Fostex both make recorders that use a flash memory card
(the Fostex can take a micro drive but I don't recall the Marantz
makes that claim), Sound Devices has a two-channel hard disk recorder,
and Edirol has recently come up with a couple of attractive units, one
in the "advanced toy" category, one in the "low high end" category,
with four channels.

But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the
professional grade portable DAT recorder.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[T Maki]

Well, I like my Maranta PMD670. Might be more than you need
though. It gots inputskis bote dem fur de condensator
microphonage (and dat phantometer power), and fur a lign,
too.

With a greatolbigabite microdrivenator, ya gets yerself a
greatolbunchaminutes record time fer outten dem location
boonies.

Worth a look. Shop right and get it for $700, plus a bill
for a CF or microdrive.



TM


Bert Aerts wrote:
>
> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...
> any advice?

[T Maki]

Well, I like my Maranta PMD670. Might be more than you need
though. It gots inputskis bote dem fur de condensator
microphonage (and dat phantometer power), and fur a lign,
too.

With a greatolbigabite microdrivenator, ya gets yerself a
greatolbunchaminutes record time fer outten dem location
boonies.

Worth a look. Shop right and get it for $700, plus a bill
for a CF or microdrive.



TM


Bert Aerts wrote:
>
> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...
> any advice?

[Edward Bridge]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100381370k@trad...
>
> But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the
> professional grade portable DAT recorder.

I think ,you just made my night. I pick up a second hand tascam DA -P1 with
Sony stereo Mic ( I don't use that too much) for $800.00, last year and
it's been my best friend at the little concerts we do . I thought maybe I
was going backwards in buying it .But the tascam dat works well with the
pair of mic's I use.

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Edward Bridge]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100381370k@trad...
>
> But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the
> professional grade portable DAT recorder.

I think ,you just made my night. I pick up a second hand tascam DA -P1 with
Sony stereo Mic ( I don't use that too much) for $800.00, last year and
it's been my best friend at the little concerts we do . I thought maybe I
was going backwards in buying it .But the tascam dat works well with the
pair of mic's I use.

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Dave]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Bert Aerts > wrote:
>>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>>power would be cool...
>>any advice?
>
> What's your budget?
> The Edirol looks nice... the Deva is popular. A used HHb DAT deck is nice
> too.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

......and I just happen to have a HHb PortaDat for sale with a bunch of
extras. Contact me offlist if you're interested.

dave
davemor at knology dot net

[Dave]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Bert Aerts > wrote:
>>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>>power would be cool...
>>any advice?
>
> What's your budget?
> The Edirol looks nice... the Deva is popular. A used HHb DAT deck is nice
> too.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

......and I just happen to have a HHb PortaDat for sale with a bunch of
extras. Contact me offlist if you're interested.

dave
davemor at knology dot net

[Bert Aerts]

i searched for these products, and they all look fine too me. price is
a little bit too much, maybe i should look for a cheaper/2nd hand
solution...

thanx for the advice!

ciao

[Bert Aerts]

i searched for these products, and they all look fine too me. price is
a little bit too much, maybe i should look for a cheaper/2nd hand
solution...

thanx for the advice!

ciao

[Eric Toline]

Re: looking for good portable/field recorder

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Sat, Nov 13, 2004, 7:09pm From:
(Mike=A0Rivers)

How much money/time/space do you have? If you're dreaming of and "I only
need . . . " price, dream on. This product category is becoming split in
two directions - on the low end, toys, and on the high end, products
that are targeted to the film sound market (though there's a range of
low to high there).

But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the professional
grade portable DAT recorder.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

For NLHD portable film sound use they're here now although the
marketplace is more crowded than ever before. The players are:

Fostex: PD-6
Zaxcom: Deva: 3, 4 & 5
Sound Devices: 722, 744T
Hhb: Portadrive
Cantar
Nagra V

Many choices with track availibility from 2 to 10 and prices ranging
from $2650 for the 722 to $16,000 for the Cantar.

Eric






--

[Eric Toline]

Re: looking for good portable/field recorder

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Sat, Nov 13, 2004, 7:09pm From:
(Mike=A0Rivers)

How much money/time/space do you have? If you're dreaming of and "I only
need . . . " price, dream on. This product category is becoming split in
two directions - on the low end, toys, and on the high end, products
that are targeted to the film sound market (though there's a range of
low to high there).

But the world is still waiting for the replacement for the professional
grade portable DAT recorder.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

For NLHD portable film sound use they're here now although the
marketplace is more crowded than ever before. The players are:

Fostex: PD-6
Zaxcom: Deva: 3, 4 & 5
Sound Devices: 722, 744T
Hhb: Portadrive
Cantar
Nagra V

Many choices with track availibility from 2 to 10 and prices ranging
from $2650 for the 722 to $16,000 for the Cantar.

Eric






--

[Mike Rivers]

In article . net> writes:

> I pick up a second hand tascam DA -P1 with
> Sony stereo Mic ( I don't use that too much) for $800.00, last year and
> it's been my best friend at the little concerts we do . I thought maybe I
> was going backwards in buying it .But the tascam dat works well with the
> pair of mic's I use.

Take good care of it and say nice things to it. Once it dies, it's
highly unlikely that it will ever be repaired. I have a dead DA-P20,
which is why I'm on a quest for a suitable replacement. I could buy a
Marantz PMD670 but I would only consider that a temporary solution,
and it's too expensive to put on the shelf after a year or two. At
least the DAT had a good 8 year run.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article . net> writes:

> I pick up a second hand tascam DA -P1 with
> Sony stereo Mic ( I don't use that too much) for $800.00, last year and
> it's been my best friend at the little concerts we do . I thought maybe I
> was going backwards in buying it .But the tascam dat works well with the
> pair of mic's I use.

Take good care of it and say nice things to it. Once it dies, it's
highly unlikely that it will ever be repaired. I have a dead DA-P20,
which is why I'm on a quest for a suitable replacement. I could buy a
Marantz PMD670 but I would only consider that a temporary solution,
and it's too expensive to put on the shelf after a year or two. At
least the DAT had a good 8 year run.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Bert Aerts" > wrote in message om...
> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...
> any advice?

A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Bert Aerts" > wrote in message om...
> hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
> only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
> of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
> also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
> power would be cool...
> any advice?

A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> For NLHD portable film sound use they're here now although the
> marketplace is more crowded than ever before.

This is true but it's not what the people who record music as music
are looking for. 2 tracks for $1000 or under, with real mic inputs.

I'm also not comfortable without an inexpensive removable recording
medium (like a DAT) but I guess I'll have to settle for a hard drive
that has sufficient capacity so that I can get through a session
(which might be a long weekend or even a week) without unloading it.
I've been able to manage my Jukebox 3's 20 GB disk without any
emergencies so I guess that concept will have to do until they make
flash memory cheap enough so that I can leave it on the shelf, and
proven permanent enough so that it can be the "master" without a
redundant copy on some other medium.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> For NLHD portable film sound use they're here now although the
> marketplace is more crowded than ever before.

This is true but it's not what the people who record music as music
are looking for. 2 tracks for $1000 or under, with real mic inputs.

I'm also not comfortable without an inexpensive removable recording
medium (like a DAT) but I guess I'll have to settle for a hard drive
that has sufficient capacity so that I can get through a session
(which might be a long weekend or even a week) without unloading it.
I've been able to manage my Jukebox 3's 20 GB disk without any
emergencies so I guess that concept will have to do until they make
flash memory cheap enough so that I can leave it on the shelf, and
proven permanent enough so that it can be the "master" without a
redundant copy on some other medium.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Edward Bridge]

/
"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100436019k@trad...
>
> Take good care of it and say nice things to it.


Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each
day while flipping a load of wash.



Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

[Edward Bridge]

/
"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100436019k@trad...
>
> Take good care of it and say nice things to it.


Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each
day while flipping a load of wash.



Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

[Mike Rivers]

In article <ANNld.2970$J55.2279@trnddc06> writes:

> A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
> if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
> should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.

But there's a difference between "portable" (which doesn't need a
4-space flight case and a bunch of cables hooking up several units
before you can go to work) and "transportable" (which means you can
pick it all up and carry it easily).

I want it all in one package, just like my TASCAM DAT.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <ANNld.2970$J55.2279@trnddc06> writes:

> A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
> if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
> should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.

But there's a difference between "portable" (which doesn't need a
4-space flight case and a bunch of cables hooking up several units
before you can go to work) and "transportable" (which means you can
pick it all up and carry it easily).

I want it all in one package, just like my TASCAM DAT.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Kurt Albershardt]

Bert Aerts wrote:
> i searched for these products, and they all look fine too me. price is
> a little bit too much, maybe i should look for a cheaper/2nd hand
> solution...

Refurbished Nomad Jukebox 3, $140 on eBay (direct from Creative with a 30-day warranty.)

You'll need a preamp or mixer, though...

[Kurt Albershardt]

Bert Aerts wrote:
> i searched for these products, and they all look fine too me. price is
> a little bit too much, maybe i should look for a cheaper/2nd hand
> solution...

Refurbished Nomad Jukebox 3, $140 on eBay (direct from Creative with a 30-day warranty.)

You'll need a preamp or mixer, though...

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <ANNld.2970$J55.2279@trnddc06> writes:
>
>
>> A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
>> if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
>> should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.
>
>
> But there's a difference between "portable" (which doesn't need a
> 4-space flight case and a bunch of cables hooking up several units
> before you can go to work) and "transportable" (which means you can
> pick it all up and carry it easily).
>
> I want it all in one package, just like my TASCAM DAT.

Sounds lke you want a 722 (at half price.)

One of the Japanese guys in the Fostex booth at AES admitted to me they are working on getting a hard drive into the FR2.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <ANNld.2970$J55.2279@trnddc06> writes:
>
>
>> A two channel phantom power supply isn't going to break the bank... and
>> if you have a 4 space flight case, any typical DAT machine with pro interfaces
>> should do the trick. Probably all can be had on e-Bay for under $600.
>
>
> But there's a difference between "portable" (which doesn't need a
> 4-space flight case and a bunch of cables hooking up several units
> before you can go to work) and "transportable" (which means you can
> pick it all up and carry it easily).
>
> I want it all in one package, just like my TASCAM DAT.

Sounds lke you want a 722 (at half price.)

One of the Japanese guys in the Fostex booth at AES admitted to me they are working on getting a hard drive into the FR2.

[Mike Rivers]

In article . net> writes:

> Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each
> day while flipping a load of wash.

17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
months.

Good thing some of my audio gear didn't come with a 10 year warranty.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article . net> writes:

> Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each
> day while flipping a load of wash.

17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
months.

Good thing some of my audio gear didn't come with a 10 year warranty.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Edward Bridge]

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100470482k@trad...
>
> In article . net>
writes:
>
> > Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat
each
> > day while flipping a load of wash.
>
> 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
> have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
> warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
> months.

I know, I have a few apartments that every 10 year , hot water heater is
done. This 17 year old one , in my own place in just a "a.j. smith" and is
over work with my four kids and their baths and bed sheets . . .She's my
lucky hot water heater. :>)




> Good thing some of my audio gear didn't come with a 10 year warranty.
>
I hope my DAT has the same luck."?)

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Edward Bridge]

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100470482k@trad...
>
> In article . net>
writes:
>
> > Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat
each
> > day while flipping a load of wash.
>
> 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
> have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
> warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
> months.

I know, I have a few apartments that every 10 year , hot water heater is
done. This 17 year old one , in my own place in just a "a.j. smith" and is
over work with my four kids and their baths and bed sheets . . .She's my
lucky hot water heater. :>)




> Good thing some of my audio gear didn't come with a 10 year warranty.
>
I hope my DAT has the same luck."?)

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article . net> writes:
>
>
>> Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat
>> each day while flipping a load of wash.
>
>
> 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
> have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
> warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
> months.

If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time. This information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years or so.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article . net> writes:
>
>
>> Hey, you know that trick! I give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat
>> each day while flipping a load of wash.
>
>
> 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed. The ones I buy seem to
> have cracked the secret of the car battery warranty. As soon as the
> warranty period is up, you can count on them going within a couple of
> months.

If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time. This information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years or so.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time. This
> information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years or so.

I have a gas water heater. I suspect that the failure mode is that
sediment collects on the bottom, which eventually insulates the water
from the burner. I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time. This
> information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years or so.

I have a gas water heater. I suspect that the failure mode is that
sediment collects on the bottom, which eventually insulates the water
from the burner. I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>On 2004-11-14 said:
> writes: Hey, you know that trick! I
> >>give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each day while
> >flipping a load of wash. 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed.
> >The ones I buy seem to have cracked the secret of the car battery
> >warranty. As soon as the warranty period is up, you can count on
> >them going within a couple of months.
>
>HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to save
>the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck where I
>used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks. THat
>stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
>orange liquid coming out of the shower head.

And that is why you should do the monthly purge. Or at least every six
months. It's not that difficult to drain a gallon out of the thing into
a bucket.

You can buy heaters with a stainless steel lining, too, rather than the
cheap glass lining. They last a lot longer, but cost a lot more. I
just went from a well to city water and I'm seeing a lot less crap coming
out when I do the monthly purge, but I'm waiting to see how that affects
the total life.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>On 2004-11-14 said:
> writes: Hey, you know that trick! I
> >>give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each day while
> >flipping a load of wash. 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed.
> >The ones I buy seem to have cracked the secret of the car battery
> >warranty. As soon as the warranty period is up, you can count on
> >them going within a couple of months.
>
>HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to save
>the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck where I
>used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks. THat
>stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
>orange liquid coming out of the shower head.

And that is why you should do the monthly purge. Or at least every six
months. It's not that difficult to drain a gallon out of the thing into
a bucket.

You can buy heaters with a stainless steel lining, too, rather than the
cheap glass lining. They last a lot longer, but cost a lot more. I
just went from a well to city water and I'm seeing a lot less crap coming
out when I do the monthly purge, but I'm waiting to see how that affects
the total life.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Carlos Alden]

in article znr1100528229k@trad, Mike Rivers at wrote on
11/15/04 6:59 AM:

> I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
> times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
> with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>

I live in a place with amazingly high mineral content in the water. It
tastes like a mountain stream, but wreaks havoc with homes like mine which
do not have water softeners.

My gas water heater pops and chunks when it's heating. This is the layer of
mineral deposits breaking away from the bottom and roiling up to the
surface, banging on the inside of the tank. I asked our county gas people
if there was a known fix for this. "Get a new water heater" was the reply.
Apparently there is some way to drain and dig out the crud, but it's really
difficult, time consuming, and messy, and not that effective. A vinegar
wash doesn't get it out - just breaks it up in smaller pieces.

There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.

Carlos

[Carlos Alden]

in article znr1100528229k@trad, Mike Rivers at wrote on
11/15/04 6:59 AM:

> I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
> times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
> with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>

I live in a place with amazingly high mineral content in the water. It
tastes like a mountain stream, but wreaks havoc with homes like mine which
do not have water softeners.

My gas water heater pops and chunks when it's heating. This is the layer of
mineral deposits breaking away from the bottom and roiling up to the
surface, banging on the inside of the tank. I asked our county gas people
if there was a known fix for this. "Get a new water heater" was the reply.
Apparently there is some way to drain and dig out the crud, but it's really
difficult, time consuming, and messy, and not that effective. A vinegar
wash doesn't get it out - just breaks it up in smaller pieces.

There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.

Carlos

[L David Matheny]

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message ...
<snip>
> There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
>
This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might help.

[L David Matheny]

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message ...
<snip>
> There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
>
This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might help.

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
"L David Matheny" > wrote:

> "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> >
> This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might help.
>
>

It might keep the water heater from suffering arthritis pain, though.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
"L David Matheny" > wrote:

> "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> >
> This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might help.
>
>

It might keep the water heater from suffering arthritis pain, though.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Paul Stamler]

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "L David Matheny" > wrote:
>
> > "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the
water
> > > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> > >
> > This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might
help.
>
> It might keep the water heater from suffering arthritis pain, though.

And give you better imaging.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "L David Matheny" > wrote:
>
> > "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the
water
> > > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> > >
> > This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might
help.
>
> It might keep the water heater from suffering arthritis pain, though.

And give you better imaging.

Peace,
Paul

[Roger W. Norman]

Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would make
a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or gas.
Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but today
it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping for
a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using optical
to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked up
to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year and
clean as a whistle.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100528229k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time.
This
> > information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years
or so.
>
> I have a gas water heater. I suspect that the failure mode is that
> sediment collects on the bottom, which eventually insulates the water
> from the burner. I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
> times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
> with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would make
a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or gas.
Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but today
it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping for
a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using optical
to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked up
to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year and
clean as a whistle.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100528229k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > If you change the anode rods out, they can last an amazingly long time.
This
> > information seems to have been forgotten sometime in the past 30 years
or so.
>
> I have a gas water heater. I suspect that the failure mode is that
> sediment collects on the bottom, which eventually insulates the water
> from the burner. I've tried diligently draining the tank a couple of
> times a year and that doesn't seem to help. Maybe I should fill it
> with vinegar occasionally like I do with my coffee pots? <g>
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to the
same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You can
find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"L David Matheny" > wrote in message
...
> "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the
water
> > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> >
> This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might
help.
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to the
same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You can
find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"L David Matheny" > wrote in message
...
> "Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> > There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the
water
> > intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> > something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> > impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> > claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.
> >
> This has got to be totally bogus. A conventional water softener might
help.
>
>

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Roger W. Norman at
wrote on 11/15/04 10:56 AM:

> It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
> pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
> thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to the
> same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You can
> find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.

Yup, it sounded too good to be true. The Monster Cable of the home
appliance world. This device is small - a simple electromagnet unit smaller
than a CD and about 1" thick.

I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.

Carlos

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Roger W. Norman at
wrote on 11/15/04 10:56 AM:

> It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
> pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
> thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to the
> same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You can
> find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.

Yup, it sounded too good to be true. The Monster Cable of the home
appliance world. This device is small - a simple electromagnet unit smaller
than a CD and about 1" thick.

I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.

Carlos

[John O]

> I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
> also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.

That only happens if you sleep with your head pointing east or west. North
or south, and you're OK.

-John O

[John O]

> I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
> also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.

That only happens if you sleep with your head pointing east or west. North
or south, and you're OK.

-John O

[Edward Bridge]

> wrote in message
.. .
>GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
> orange liquid coming out of the shower head.



now when I take morning showers i'm going to be checking for orange stuff
:>)

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Edward Bridge]

> wrote in message
.. .
>GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
> orange liquid coming out of the shower head.



now when I take morning showers i'm going to be checking for orange stuff
:>)

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.

Sounds like something that we need for our studio cables. <G>

The magnetic part rang a bell though. In the manual for my water
heater (it's a Sears, so there's a real manual with a real parts list)
it says: "In some water areas, you may not be able to drain all
sediment deposits by simply draining the tank. In those cases, Mag
Erad (part no. 23600) can be used to help remove the sediment
deposits."

I looked up that part number on the Sears web site, which it
acknowledges as "Mag-Erad" but it say it's unavailable. A Google
search shows it to be a citric acid based cleaner available at
plumbing supply stores. So I wasn't too far off joking about
cleaning the water heater like a coffee pot.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> There are folks that make electromagentic collars that surround the water
> intake pipe and thus make the water softer. This supposedly realigns
> something in the minerals' molecular structure which then makes it
> impossible for it to stick to anything. As a side benefit this process
> claims that it eventually cleans out encrusted water heaters.

Sounds like something that we need for our studio cables. <G>

The magnetic part rang a bell though. In the manual for my water
heater (it's a Sears, so there's a real manual with a real parts list)
it says: "In some water areas, you may not be able to drain all
sediment deposits by simply draining the tank. In those cases, Mag
Erad (part no. 23600) can be used to help remove the sediment
deposits."

I looked up that part number on the Sears web site, which it
acknowledges as "Mag-Erad" but it say it's unavailable. A Google
search shows it to be a citric acid based cleaner available at
plumbing supply stores. So I wasn't too far off joking about
cleaning the water heater like a coffee pot.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Pooh Bear]

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

> Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would make
> a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or gas.
> Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but today
> it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping for
> a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using optical
> to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked up
> to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year and
> clean as a whistle.
>

What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

> Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would make
> a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or gas.
> Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but today
> it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping for
> a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using optical
> to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked up
> to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year and
> clean as a whistle.
>

What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.


Graham

[Roger W. Norman]

Only if you're sitting on a highly electro-magnetized toilet! <g> But then,
in the words of John Mellencamp, it "Hurts So Good"! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Roger W. Norman at
> wrote on 11/15/04 10:56 AM:
>
> > It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
> > pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
> > thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to
the
> > same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You
can
> > find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.
>
> Yup, it sounded too good to be true. The Monster Cable of the home
> appliance world. This device is small - a simple electromagnet unit
smaller
> than a CD and about 1" thick.
>
> I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
> also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.
>
> Carlos
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Only if you're sitting on a highly electro-magnetized toilet! <g> But then,
in the words of John Mellencamp, it "Hurts So Good"! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Roger W. Norman at
> wrote on 11/15/04 10:56 AM:
>
> > It is bogus. What it does is act as an electrical anode ending black
> > pipe/copper pipe electrical differences that end up as corrosion. Same
> > thing happens when a lot of different types of metal are connected to
the
> > same thing. Doesn't soften the water, just disperses the charge. You
can
> > find the same thing on gas engines in salt water for outboard boats.
>
> Yup, it sounded too good to be true. The Monster Cable of the home
> appliance world. This device is small - a simple electromagnet unit
smaller
> than a CD and about 1" thick.
>
> I'm surprised they didn't also claim that drinking magnetized water would
> also leach out cholesterol in the bloodstream.
>
> Carlos
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
water, too.

Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
generate enough electricity for a house?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
>
> > Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would
make
> > a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or
gas.
> > Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but
today
> > it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping
for
> > a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using
optical
> > to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked
up
> > to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> > The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year
and
> > clean as a whistle.
> >
>
> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
> I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.
>
>
> Graham
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
water, too.

Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
generate enough electricity for a house?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
>
> > Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would
make
> > a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or
gas.
> > Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but
today
> > it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping
for
> > a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using
optical
> > to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked
up
> > to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> > The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year
and
> > clean as a whistle.
> >
>
> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
> I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.
>
>
> Graham
>

[S O'Neill]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> generate enough electricity for a house?



That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

[S O'Neill]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> generate enough electricity for a house?



That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

[Roger W. Norman]

At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to accelerate
the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's normal
consumption. Obviously other factors come into play, and I wasn't really
trying to get into this line of reasoning.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
> > Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces
of
> > metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a
method of
> > free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe
with
> > a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> > generate enough electricity for a house?
>
>
>
> That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

[Roger W. Norman]

At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to accelerate
the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's normal
consumption. Obviously other factors come into play, and I wasn't really
trying to get into this line of reasoning.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
> > Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces
of
> > metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a
method of
> > free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe
with
> > a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> > generate enough electricity for a house?
>
>
>
> That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
this water heater.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
this water heater.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
boat leak.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.

If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
boat leak.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Len Moskowitz]

Bert Aerts > wrote:

>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>power would be cool...
>any advice?

iRiver iHP-120 (now know as H120).

http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/H120.aspx

Core Sound PDAudio

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

[Len Moskowitz]

Bert Aerts > wrote:

>hey all, i'm looking for a good tool to record on location. i need
>only one (stereo) input, and i wanna have the quality of digital sound
>of 44.1 khz, 16 bit or more...
>also it would be cool if i can connect condensator mics, so phantom
>power would be cool...
>any advice?

iRiver iHP-120 (now know as H120).

http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/H120.aspx

Core Sound PDAudio

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

[Len Moskowitz]

Logan Shaw > wrote:

>Haven't used it, but Marantz PMD670 is one to consider:

We posted a comparison of recorders including the PMD670 to our Web
site:

http://www.core-sound.com/comparison-pdaudio-pmd-670-fr-2.html

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

[Len Moskowitz]

Logan Shaw > wrote:

>Haven't used it, but Marantz PMD670 is one to consider:

We posted a comparison of recorders including the PMD670 to our Web
site:

http://www.core-sound.com/comparison-pdaudio-pmd-670-fr-2.html

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

[S O'Neill]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
>
>>That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
>
>
> If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> boat leak.

Yoobetchya, but he was going to power a house with it.

[S O'Neill]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
>
>>That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
>
>
> If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> boat leak.

Yoobetchya, but he was going to power a house with it.

[Paul Stamler]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100606650k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
>
> If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> boat leak.

We're back to boats again.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100606650k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
>
> If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> boat leak.

We're back to boats again.

Peace,
Paul

[Logan Shaw]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to accelerate
> the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
> power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's normal
> consumption.

Although that's not really and apples-to-apples comparison, since
a car battery operates at a nominal 12V and a house (in the USA)
operates at a nominal 120V RMS. 270A at 12V is the same amount
of power as 27A at 120V. That would barely drive the air conditioner
in my apartment, and then there are all the lights, computers, etc.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to accelerate
> the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
> power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's normal
> consumption.

Although that's not really and apples-to-apples comparison, since
a car battery operates at a nominal 12V and a house (in the USA)
operates at a nominal 120V RMS. 270A at 12V is the same amount
of power as 27A at 120V. That would barely drive the air conditioner
in my apartment, and then there are all the lights, computers, etc.

- Logan

[Pooh Bear]

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

> Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
> component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
> with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
> ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
> boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
> because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
> not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
> I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
> water, too.
>
> Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> generate enough electricity for a house?
>

Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?

Graham


>
> --
>
> Roger W. Norman
> SirMusic Studio
>
> "Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
> >
> > > Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would
> make
> > > a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or
> gas.
> > > Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but
> today
> > > it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping
> for
> > > a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using
> optical
> > > to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked
> up
> > > to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> > > The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year
> and
> > > clean as a whistle.
> > >
> >
> > What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
> >
> > I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.
> >
> >
> > Graham
> >

[Pooh Bear]

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

> Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
> component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
> with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
> ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
> boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
> because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
> not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
> I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
> water, too.
>
> Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> generate enough electricity for a house?
>

Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?

Graham


>
> --
>
> Roger W. Norman
> SirMusic Studio
>
> "Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
> >
> > > Water treatments would go a long way, but changing out the anodes would
> make
> > > a difference, too. But that depends on whether you have electric or
> gas.
> > > Gas has black pipe running (a electric path to copper waterpipe), but
> today
> > > it doesn't have to be. Technically you could change out the gas piping
> for
> > > a flexible plastic and end the problem once and for all (like using
> optical
> > > to end ground hums). Personally, I just have my gas water heater hooked
> up
> > > to the water pipe and change the anode connection every couple of years.
> > > The last water heater lasted 18 years. This one's into it's sixth year
> and
> > > clean as a whistle.
> > >
> >
> > What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
> >
> > I suspect our UK water heaters are a bit different.
> >
> >
> > Graham
> >

[George Gleason]

Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
>
>
>>Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
>>component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
>>with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
>>ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
>>boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
>>because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
>>not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
>>I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
>>water, too.
>>
>>Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
>>metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
>>free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
>>a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
>>generate enough electricity for a house?
>>
>
>
> Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
>
> Graham
>
Black Pipe is used for GAS lines
George

[George Gleason]

Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
>
>
>>Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
>>component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
>>with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
>>ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
>>boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
>>because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
>>not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
>>I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
>>water, too.
>>
>>Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
>>metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
>>free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
>>a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
>>generate enough electricity for a house?
>>
>
>
> Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
>
> Graham
>
Black Pipe is used for GAS lines
George

[Pooh Bear]

George Gleason wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
> >
> > "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
> >>component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
> >>with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
> >>ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
> >>boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
> >>because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
> >>not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
> >>I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
> >>water, too.
> >>
> >>Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> >>metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> >>free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> >>a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> >>generate enough electricity for a house?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
> >
> > Graham
> >
> Black Pipe is used for GAS lines
> George

I suspected it might be that. Is it made of steel ?

Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water too
).

The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is converted
to copper inside the property.

Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

George Gleason wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
> >
> > "Roger W. Norman" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Look on the leading black pipe. Black pipe (galvanized steel with another
> >>component) ultimately works like a di-electric conductor when in contact
> >>with copper, hence a "device" that bleeds electricity off the pipes and to
> >>ground. I have one that preceeds my water heater, which is prior to my
> >>boiler, and it needs either cleaning or changing every few years. And it's
> >>because there's electricity generated by the difference in the metals. It's
> >>not just in this circumstance that one finds a necessity for an anode. Like
> >>I said, it's required on any outboard or inboard/outboard boat motor in salt
> >>water, too.
> >>
> >>Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
> >>metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
> >>free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
> >>a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
> >>generate enough electricity for a house?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
> >
> > Graham
> >
> Black Pipe is used for GAS lines
> George

I suspected it might be that. Is it made of steel ?

Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water too
).

The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is converted
to copper inside the property.

Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.


Graham

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?

Iron (or actually steel) pipe, which just happens to be black. Not
copper, not PVC, not lead.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?

Iron (or actually steel) pipe, which just happens to be black. Not
copper, not PVC, not lead.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Bob Cain]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article > writes:
>
>
>>What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
>
> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> this water heater.

Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article > writes:
>
>
>>What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
>
> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> this water heater.

Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[S O'Neill]

Bob Cain wrote:
>
>
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> In article >
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>>
>>
>>
>> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
>> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
>> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
>> this water heater.
>
>
> Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.


Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
water wouldn't need this.

[S O'Neill]

Bob Cain wrote:
>
>
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> In article >
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>>
>>
>>
>> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
>> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
>> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
>> this water heater.
>
>
> Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.


Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
water wouldn't need this.

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Bob Cain

>Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are >used >to collect ions.

Rod material chosen to be sacrificed instead of tank material. Similar to
marine practices.

Reference: http://tinyurl.com/wmgq
--TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Bob Cain

>Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are >used >to collect ions.

Rod material chosen to be sacrificed instead of tank material. Similar to
marine practices.

Reference: http://tinyurl.com/wmgq
--TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Pooh Bear

>Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water
>too
>).
>
>The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is
>converted
>to copper inside the property.
>
>Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.

Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA spec):

<Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material manufactured to
the requirements of ASTM B 88 – Standard Specification for Seamless Copper
Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types K, L,
and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L being of
intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from copper
alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu)
and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of
0.015 % - 0.040 %.>

This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water heaters
etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form the
flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain soft
copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to be
orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen embrittlement").
Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines (still flare
ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare connectors,
I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Pooh Bear

>Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water
>too
>).
>
>The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is
>converted
>to copper inside the property.
>
>Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.

Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA spec):

<Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material manufactured to
the requirements of ASTM B 88 – Standard Specification for Seamless Copper
Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types K, L,
and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L being of
intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from copper
alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu)
and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of
0.015 % - 0.040 %.>

This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water heaters
etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form the
flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain soft
copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to be
orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen embrittlement").
Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines (still flare
ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare connectors,
I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP

[Bob Cain]

S O'Neill wrote:
> Bob Cain wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mike Rivers wrote:
>>
>>> In article >
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>>>
>>> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
>>> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
>>> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
>>> this water heater.
>
>> Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.
>
> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

Oops. I knew it was something like that. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

S O'Neill wrote:
> Bob Cain wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mike Rivers wrote:
>>
>>> In article >
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>>>
>>> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
>>> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
>>> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
>>> this water heater.
>
>> Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.
>
> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

Oops. I knew it was something like that. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[murph]

> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

Maybe easy to replace, but not in cellars with low ceilings. A few years
ago I called mfgr. Rod was 90.00. Heater cost me 149.00. Not worth it.
Damage was already done.

I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am getting
ready to do so again.

2 whole house filters BEFORE the tank. One sediment, one carbon. Been
all over the system. I put a pantyhose screen over outlet once when I
drained it. Had water company out here. Said deposits were calcium
"normal".

I've tried purging tank periodically, tried vinegar, etc. It's become
easier to just replace the tank. Throw it in the truck & take it back.
They gotta dispose of it.

I gotta quit drinking this water...
Save those receipts.

[murph]

> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.

Maybe easy to replace, but not in cellars with low ceilings. A few years
ago I called mfgr. Rod was 90.00. Heater cost me 149.00. Not worth it.
Damage was already done.

I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am getting
ready to do so again.

2 whole house filters BEFORE the tank. One sediment, one carbon. Been
all over the system. I put a pantyhose screen over outlet once when I
drained it. Had water company out here. Said deposits were calcium
"normal".

I've tried purging tank periodically, tried vinegar, etc. It's become
easier to just replace the tank. Throw it in the truck & take it back.
They gotta dispose of it.

I gotta quit drinking this water...
Save those receipts.

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message


> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
> warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> getting ready to do so again.

Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message


> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
> warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> getting ready to do so again.

Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?

[Roger W. Norman]

Math was never my strong suit, as I've often complained to Dr. Nuke about
when he brings up math for audio questions.

I do know that I haven't been killed by electricity even though I have done
everything in a house except run power from the pole.

But thanks, Logan. You are right.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Logan Shaw" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
> > At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to
accelerate
> > the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
> > power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's
normal
> > consumption.
>
> Although that's not really and apples-to-apples comparison, since
> a car battery operates at a nominal 12V and a house (in the USA)
> operates at a nominal 120V RMS. 270A at 12V is the same amount
> of power as 27A at 120V. That would barely drive the air conditioner
> in my apartment, and then there are all the lights, computers, etc.
>
> - Logan

[Roger W. Norman]

Math was never my strong suit, as I've often complained to Dr. Nuke about
when he brings up math for audio questions.

I do know that I haven't been killed by electricity even though I have done
everything in a house except run power from the pole.

But thanks, Logan. You are right.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Logan Shaw" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
> > At and extremely slow rate. The high rate batteries use acid to
accelerate
> > the ability to draw power, like car batteries with 270 amps of cranking
> > power. 270 amps is far in excess of what's necessary for a house's
normal
> > consumption.
>
> Although that's not really and apples-to-apples comparison, since
> a car battery operates at a nominal 12V and a house (in the USA)
> operates at a nominal 120V RMS. 270A at 12V is the same amount
> of power as 27A at 120V. That would barely drive the air conditioner
> in my apartment, and then there are all the lights, computers, etc.
>
> - Logan

[Roger W. Norman]

Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the black
appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
does in water pipes.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100639548k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
>
> Iron (or actually steel) pipe, which just happens to be black. Not
> copper, not PVC, not lead.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the black
appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
does in water pipes.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100639548k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > Ok - what's 'black pipe' ?
>
> Iron (or actually steel) pipe, which just happens to be black. Not
> copper, not PVC, not lead.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
because no water heater would heat water without it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100569959k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> this water heater.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
because no water heater would heat water without it.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100569959k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
>
> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> this water heater.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

That's what I was looking for. Sacrificial anode. Same as on a boat.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Cain wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike Rivers wrote:
> >
> >> In article >
> >> writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> >> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> >> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> >> this water heater.
> >
> >
> > Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.
>
>
> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.
>
> A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
> the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
> contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
> water wouldn't need this.

[Roger W. Norman]

That's what I was looking for. Sacrificial anode. Same as on a boat.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Cain wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike Rivers wrote:
> >
> >> In article >
> >> writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I wondered the same thing too, but I looked in the manual for my gas
> >> water heater and sure enough, it has one. Obviously not
> >> active-electrical since there's no electrical connection at all to
> >> this water heater.
> >
> >
> > Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are used to collect ions.
>
>
> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.
>
> A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
> the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
> contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
> water wouldn't need this.

[Roger W. Norman]

And I said this about 15 times on this thread.

But I'm glad to have you saying the same thing, Tom. Your electrical
knowledge has been a real plus on this newsgroup.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Bob Cain
>
> >Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are >used >to collect ions.
>
> Rod material chosen to be sacrificed instead of tank material. Similar to
> marine practices.
>
> Reference: http://tinyurl.com/wmgq
> --TP
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

And I said this about 15 times on this thread.

But I'm glad to have you saying the same thing, Tom. Your electrical
knowledge has been a real plus on this newsgroup.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Bob Cain
>
> >Probably parasitic. Passive anodes are >used >to collect ions.
>
> Rod material chosen to be sacrificed instead of tank material. Similar to
> marine practices.
>
> Reference: http://tinyurl.com/wmgq
> --TP
>
>

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

[black pipe]
>Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the black
>appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
>does in water pipes.

In plumbing, we used black pipe per this description (from Keidel Co.):

<When steel pipe is forged, a black oxide scale forms on its surface to give it
the finish we see on this type of pipe. Because steel is subject to rust and
corrosion, the factory also coats it with protective oil.
It is used for gas distribution inside and outside the house, and for hot water
circulation in boiler systems. It is not used for potable water, or for drain
waste, or vent lines.
It is sold in standard 21-foot lengths TBE.
Black pipe is cut and threaded to fit the job. Fittings for this type of pipe
are of black malleable (soft) cast iron.>

"Black galvanized" pipe I don't think I've ever seen. Even in moist crawl
spaces, cheap old "black iron" pipe doesn't seem to rust away. For underground
use, the pipe is coated with "tar" and then a plastic sleeve (usually yellow)
is applied. Buried joints are taped to minimize exposure to soil and water.
--TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

[black pipe]
>Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the black
>appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
>does in water pipes.

In plumbing, we used black pipe per this description (from Keidel Co.):

<When steel pipe is forged, a black oxide scale forms on its surface to give it
the finish we see on this type of pipe. Because steel is subject to rust and
corrosion, the factory also coats it with protective oil.
It is used for gas distribution inside and outside the house, and for hot water
circulation in boiler systems. It is not used for potable water, or for drain
waste, or vent lines.
It is sold in standard 21-foot lengths TBE.
Black pipe is cut and threaded to fit the job. Fittings for this type of pipe
are of black malleable (soft) cast iron.>

"Black galvanized" pipe I don't think I've ever seen. Even in moist crawl
spaces, cheap old "black iron" pipe doesn't seem to rust away. For underground
use, the pipe is coated with "tar" and then a plastic sleeve (usually yellow)
is applied. Buried joints are taped to minimize exposure to soil and water.
--TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

>And I said this about 15 times on this >thread.

I found a good picture.

>But I'm glad to have you saying the same thing, Tom. Your electrical
>knowledge has been a real plus on this >newsgroup.

I'm a plumber. I only know enough about electricity to let the electricians do
that work. Oh, and one other thing: "Always use a tester or VoM". --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

>And I said this about 15 times on this >thread.

I found a good picture.

>But I'm glad to have you saying the same thing, Tom. Your electrical
>knowledge has been a real plus on this >newsgroup.

I'm a plumber. I only know enough about electricity to let the electricians do
that work. Oh, and one other thing: "Always use a tester or VoM". --TP

[Scott Dorsey]

Roger W. Norman > wrote:
>Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>because no water heater would heat water without it.

Silly, that's what the gas line is for. Electricity is too expensive to
waste heating water.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Roger W. Norman > wrote:
>Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>because no water heater would heat water without it.

Silly, that's what the gas line is for. Electricity is too expensive to
waste heating water.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Logan Shaw]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
turning on the flashlight again once I was done.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
turning on the flashlight again once I was done.

- Logan

[Pooh Bear]

Tom Paterson wrote:

> >From: Pooh Bear
>
> >Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water
> >too
> >).
> >
> >The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is
> >converted
> >to copper inside the property.
> >
> >Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.
>
> Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA spec):
>
> <Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material manufactured to
> the requirements of ASTM B 88 – Standard Specification for Seamless Copper
> Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types K, L,
> and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L being of
> intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from copper
> alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu)
> and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of
> 0.015 % - 0.040 %.>
>
> This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water heaters
> etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form the
> flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain soft
> copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to be
> orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen embrittlement").
> Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines (still flare
> ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare connectors,
> I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP

Clearly very different to here.

We use the same copper pipe for water and gas. Optionally, water may be run in
plastic pipe.

Don't use 'flared' joints either.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Tom Paterson wrote:

> >From: Pooh Bear
>
> >Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the water
> >too
> >).
> >
> >The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then is
> >converted
> >to copper inside the property.
> >
> >Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.
>
> Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA spec):
>
> <Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material manufactured to
> the requirements of ASTM B 88 – Standard Specification for Seamless Copper
> Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types K, L,
> and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L being of
> intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from copper
> alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu)
> and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of
> 0.015 % - 0.040 %.>
>
> This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water heaters
> etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form the
> flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain soft
> copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to be
> orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen embrittlement").
> Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines (still flare
> ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare connectors,
> I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP

Clearly very different to here.

We use the same copper pipe for water and gas. Optionally, water may be run in
plastic pipe.

Don't use 'flared' joints either.

Graham

[murph]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> > heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> > Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
> > warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> > HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> > getting ready to do so again.
>
> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?


Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One "paper"
sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.

[murph]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> > heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> > Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt in
> > warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> > HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> > getting ready to do so again.
>
> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?


Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One "paper"
sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Logan Shaw at
wrote on 11/17/04 1:14 PM:

>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
> shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
> 3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
> light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
> turning on the flashlight again once I was done.
>
> - Logan


The original post must have meant electric heating systems. I had a
similar experience as above - we were out power for ten days due to an ice
storm, but the gas appliances worked fine. Thank God we continued to have
hot water, because that and the wood stove were the only things keeping us
warm. We also could cook by lighting the stove with a match.

Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends too
much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
unable to bypass the system to light it.

Carlos

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Logan Shaw at
wrote on 11/17/04 1:14 PM:

>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
> shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
> 3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
> light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
> turning on the flashlight again once I was done.
>
> - Logan


The original post must have meant electric heating systems. I had a
similar experience as above - we were out power for ten days due to an ice
storm, but the gas appliances worked fine. Thank God we continued to have
hot water, because that and the wood stove were the only things keeping us
warm. We also could cook by lighting the stove with a match.

Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends too
much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
unable to bypass the system to light it.

Carlos

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
>>> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
>>> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt
>>> in warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
>>> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
>>> getting ready to do so again.
>>
>> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?
>
>
> Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.

The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
used only on the cold side of the water heater.

You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
of the heater.

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
>>> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
>>> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt
>>> in warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
>>> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
>>> getting ready to do so again.
>>
>> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?
>
>
> Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.

The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
used only on the cold side of the water heater.

You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
of the heater.

[Arny Krueger]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message


> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

You never heard of gas water heaters?

[Arny Krueger]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message


> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

You never heard of gas water heaters?

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.

My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100735378k@trad
> In article >
> writes:
>
>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
> Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
> a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
> never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
> may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.

I've taken them apart. They indeed are based on a bimetalic thermocouple or
thermocouple stack (thermopile). They activate a sensitive solenoid that
operates the gas valve.

http://hearth.com/what/gas/howgasworks.html

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100735378k@trad
> In article >
> writes:
>
>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
>> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
> Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
> a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
> never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
> may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.

I've taken them apart. They indeed are based on a bimetalic thermocouple or
thermocouple stack (thermopile). They activate a sensitive solenoid that
operates the gas valve.

http://hearth.com/what/gas/howgasworks.html

[Scott Dorsey]

Carlos Alden > wrote:
>
>Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends too
>much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
>unable to bypass the system to light it.

Chakaal's boiler uses electricity for control, but also to run two little
quarter-horsepower circulating pumps. Which makes you think that it is
just 400W or so until you realize how nasty a load the motors are. I suspect
it will probably run off a 1KW inverter in a pinch although I haven't tried
it.

My gas furnace has a 1 HP blower motor, which is way too much to deal with
on an inverter. And I donated my generator to a bunch of WWII re-enactors...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Carlos Alden > wrote:
>
>Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends too
>much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
>unable to bypass the system to light it.

Chakaal's boiler uses electricity for control, but also to run two little
quarter-horsepower circulating pumps. Which makes you think that it is
just 400W or so until you realize how nasty a load the motors are. I suspect
it will probably run off a 1KW inverter in a pinch although I haven't tried
it.

My gas furnace has a 1 HP blower motor, which is way too much to deal with
on an inverter. And I donated my generator to a bunch of WWII re-enactors...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Pooh Bear]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "murph" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >>> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> >>> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> >>> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt
> >>> in warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> >>> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> >>> getting ready to do so again.
> >>
> >> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?
> >
> >
> > Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> > the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> > "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>
> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
> used only on the cold side of the water heater.
>
> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
> of the heater.

Heating water in the USA sounds *astonishingly* complicated !


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "murph" > wrote in message
>
> > In article >,
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
> >
> >>> I live in Nashville. Been in this house for 14 year & 3 gas water
> >>> heaters. Replaced the original a few years after we moved in. Home
> >>> Depot, don't remember the brand. 5 year warranty. Kept the receipt
> >>> in warranty folder. 4 years, 2 mos. later it fails.
> >>> HD replaces it w/GE 40 gal. Replaced it once after 3 years & am
> >>> getting ready to do so again.
> >>
> >> Do you have a dielectric coupling in the system?
> >
> >
> > Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> > the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> > "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>
> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
> used only on the cold side of the water heater.
>
> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
> of the heater.

Heating water in the USA sounds *astonishingly* complicated !


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> news:znr1100735378k@trad
> > In article >
> > writes:
> >
> >> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >> because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
> > Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
> > a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
> > never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
> > may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.
>
> I've taken them apart. They indeed are based on a bimetalic thermocouple or
> thermocouple stack (thermopile). They activate a sensitive solenoid that
> operates the gas valve.
>
> http://hearth.com/what/gas/howgasworks.html

Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.

It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> news:znr1100735378k@trad
> > In article >
> > writes:
> >
> >> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >> because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > My gas water heater has no electrical connection to the outside world.
> > Any electricity involved with its operation is self-generated. There's
> > a temperature sensor (it's call a thermocouple in the book, but I've
> > never taken one apart) that holds the pilot valve open that I think
> > may be electrical, or maybe it's just a heat pipe.
>
> I've taken them apart. They indeed are based on a bimetalic thermocouple or
> thermocouple stack (thermopile). They activate a sensitive solenoid that
> operates the gas valve.
>
> http://hearth.com/what/gas/howgasworks.html

Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.

It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.


Graham

[mr c deckard]

?? either you sent that one too quick or i'm missing something -- most
of the heaters here in st louis are nat gas.

chris deckard
saint louis mo




"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message >...
> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> --
>

[mr c deckard]

?? either you sent that one too quick or i'm missing something -- most
of the heaters here in st louis are nat gas.

chris deckard
saint louis mo




"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message >...
> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> --
>

[murph]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> > the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> > "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>
> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
> used only on the cold side of the water heater.
>
> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
> of the heater.


You might have misunderstood me. They are on the inlet side of the tank.
In from street, hits 2 filters, then the heater.
The reason I started using the whole house filters originally was the
taste (heavy chlorine). So I decided to add the extra sediment filter
before the carbon. I've wondered if the filters could somehow be
compunding the problem, but I will never understand the
science...Anyway, this has been a very interesting thread.

[murph]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> > Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater are
> > the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
> > "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>
> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are supposed to be
> used only on the cold side of the water heater.
>
> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the hot side
> of the heater.


You might have misunderstood me. They are on the inlet side of the tank.
In from street, hits 2 filters, then the heater.
The reason I started using the whole house filters originally was the
taste (heavy chlorine). So I decided to add the extra sediment filter
before the carbon. I've wondered if the filters could somehow be
compunding the problem, but I will never understand the
science...Anyway, this has been a very interesting thread.

[Dale Farmer]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> You never heard of gas water heaters?

There are gas powered water heaters that use no external electricity.
The tiny amount of power needed to operate the thermostat is provided
by a thermocouple heated by the pilot light. Newer ones actually have
a small generator in the water flow, and only turn on when the water is
running.

--Dale

[Dale Farmer]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> You never heard of gas water heaters?

There are gas powered water heaters that use no external electricity.
The tiny amount of power needed to operate the thermostat is provided
by a thermocouple heated by the pilot light. Newer ones actually have
a small generator in the water flow, and only turn on when the water is
running.

--Dale

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Pooh Bear

[thermocouples, gas WH]

>Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
>
>It opens the main burners automatically >on demand for hot water.

The thermostat has a sensor in the tank. When the water temp falls below the
setting, the "main" valve opens, allowing gas to flow to the burner. The pilot
flame lights the burner, which runs until the set temp is reached again. The
pilot flame thermocouple "safety loop" is there so that the burner lights off
instead of an unlit pilot allowing the passing unburned nat. gas into the room
(ka-boom).

There's an "ECO" cutoff in the probe, too, which will shut off the gas if it
gets too hot. Along with the T&P valve, the object is to prevent "runaway"
(stuck on) burners from running the temp up until the tank ruptures.
Steam explosion, no good. Water heaters flying like rocketships, I've seen it
in "plumber training films". --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Pooh Bear

[thermocouples, gas WH]

>Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
>
>It opens the main burners automatically >on demand for hot water.

The thermostat has a sensor in the tank. When the water temp falls below the
setting, the "main" valve opens, allowing gas to flow to the burner. The pilot
flame lights the burner, which runs until the set temp is reached again. The
pilot flame thermocouple "safety loop" is there so that the burner lights off
instead of an unlit pilot allowing the passing unburned nat. gas into the room
(ka-boom).

There's an "ECO" cutoff in the probe, too, which will shut off the gas if it
gets too hot. Along with the T&P valve, the object is to prevent "runaway"
(stuck on) burners from running the temp up until the tank ruptures.
Steam explosion, no good. Water heaters flying like rocketships, I've seen it
in "plumber training films". --TP

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>> Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater
>>> are the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
>>> "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>>
>> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are
>> supposed to be used only on the cold side of the water heater.

>> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the
>> hot side of the heater.

> You might have misunderstood me. They are on the inlet side of the
> tank. In from street, hits 2 filters, then the heater.

I've got that.

> The reason I started using the whole house filters originally was the
> taste (heavy chlorine). So I decided to add the extra sediment filter
> before the carbon. I've wondered if the filters could somehow be
> compunding the problem, but I will never understand the
> science...

Your use of filters is just fine.

However, there still might be a benefit to adding a dielectric coupling on
the output side of the hot water heater.

>Anyway, this has been a very interesting thread.

[Arny Krueger]

"murph" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>>> Copper back to water meter. The only thing between meter & heater
>>> are the 2 whole house filters I mentioned. The housings are PVC. One
>>> "paper" sediment filter & one carbon activated filter for chlorine.
>>
>> The filter bodies are good dielectric isolators, but they are
>> supposed to be used only on the cold side of the water heater.

>> You might want to put a dielectric isolator into the piping on the
>> hot side of the heater.

> You might have misunderstood me. They are on the inlet side of the
> tank. In from street, hits 2 filters, then the heater.

I've got that.

> The reason I started using the whole house filters originally was the
> taste (heavy chlorine). So I decided to add the extra sediment filter
> before the carbon. I've wondered if the filters could somehow be
> compunding the problem, but I will never understand the
> science...

Your use of filters is just fine.

However, there still might be a benefit to adding a dielectric coupling on
the output side of the hot water heater.

>Anyway, this has been a very interesting thread.

[Arny Krueger]

"Dale Farmer" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical
>>> connection because no water heater would heat water without it.
>>
>> You never heard of gas water heaters?
>
> There are gas powered water heaters that use no external
> electricity. The tiny amount of power needed to operate the
> thermostat is provided by a thermocouple heated by the pilot light.
> Newer ones actually have a small generator in the water flow, and
> only turn on when the water is running.

Agreed.

[Arny Krueger]

"Dale Farmer" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical
>>> connection because no water heater would heat water without it.
>>
>> You never heard of gas water heaters?
>
> There are gas powered water heaters that use no external
> electricity. The tiny amount of power needed to operate the
> thermostat is provided by a thermocouple heated by the pilot light.
> Newer ones actually have a small generator in the water flow, and
> only turn on when the water is running.

Agreed.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Heating water in the USA sounds *astonishingly* complicated !

1. When the rain barrel is sufficiently full, gather a small pile of
wood, some smooth rocks, and a tub. Fill the tub half full of water.
2. Cut two sticks
3. Rub sticks together to make a fire
4. Ignite wood pile.
5. When wood is burning nicely, pile rocks on top.
6. When rocks are heated, carefully transfer them to the tub of water.
The tub should not be roughly 3/4 full
7. In a few minutes, enjoy the hot water.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Heating water in the USA sounds *astonishingly* complicated !

1. When the rain barrel is sufficiently full, gather a small pile of
wood, some smooth rocks, and a tub. Fill the tub half full of water.
2. Cut two sticks
3. Rub sticks together to make a fire
4. Ignite wood pile.
5. When wood is burning nicely, pile rocks on top.
6. When rocks are heated, carefully transfer them to the tub of water.
The tub should not be roughly 3/4 full
7. In a few minutes, enjoy the hot water.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.

When I lived in an apartment in Japan (new housing, 1970), we had one
gas water heater in the kitchen and another in the bathroom. There was a
pilot light and a small tank. Opening the faucet activated the burner
which heated the water as it flowed. They worked great, and they were
very inexpensive (you could buy one for about $20 in a department
store). But the flame was pretty much open.

When I got back to the US, I looked into getting a water heater like
that for my upstairs bathroom but found that they were illegal in the
US because of the open flame. There were (and probably still are -
Arny will point to a line, I'm sure) fancy ones intended for mountain
cabins and such but they were very expensive. It was cheaper to waste
water waiting for the hot water to get through teh pipes.

Incidentally, in the Japan apartment, the bathroom water heater had
real plumbing going to it, but the gas in the kitchen came out of a
two-spigot fixture that looked like what we had on the work benches in
high school chem lab. Gas was connected by a rubber hose, and water
was connected with what looked like a piece of garden hose with
standard connections. The "hot water tap" was on the bottom of the
water heater.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.

When I lived in an apartment in Japan (new housing, 1970), we had one
gas water heater in the kitchen and another in the bathroom. There was a
pilot light and a small tank. Opening the faucet activated the burner
which heated the water as it flowed. They worked great, and they were
very inexpensive (you could buy one for about $20 in a department
store). But the flame was pretty much open.

When I got back to the US, I looked into getting a water heater like
that for my upstairs bathroom but found that they were illegal in the
US because of the open flame. There were (and probably still are -
Arny will point to a line, I'm sure) fancy ones intended for mountain
cabins and such but they were very expensive. It was cheaper to waste
water waiting for the hot water to get through teh pipes.

Incidentally, in the Japan apartment, the bathroom water heater had
real plumbing going to it, but the gas in the kitchen came out of a
two-spigot fixture that looked like what we had on the work benches in
high school chem lab. Gas was connected by a rubber hose, and water
was connected with what looked like a piece of garden hose with
standard connections. The "hot water tap" was on the bottom of the
water heater.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Pooh Bear]

Tom Paterson wrote:

> >From: Pooh Bear
>
> [thermocouples, gas WH]
>
> >Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> >
> >It opens the main burners automatically >on demand for hot water.
>
> The thermostat has a sensor in the tank. When the water temp falls below the
> setting, the "main" valve opens, allowing gas to flow to the burner. The pilot
> flame lights the burner, which runs until the set temp is reached again. The
> pilot flame thermocouple "safety loop" is there so that the burner lights off
> instead of an unlit pilot allowing the passing unburned nat. gas into the room
> (ka-boom).
>
> There's an "ECO" cutoff in the probe, too, which will shut off the gas if it
> gets too hot. Along with the T&P valve, the object is to prevent "runaway"
> (stuck on) burners from running the temp up until the tank ruptures.
> Steam explosion, no good. Water heaters flying like rocketships, I've seen it
> in "plumber training films". --TP

Ok - mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up as it
passes through.

Quite popular in the UK either as stand alone or as part of a central heating
'boiler'.

No wasted energy in storing hot water. No limit to the amount of hot water
available ( so you can't run out of hot water ).

The hot water storage tanks we do have here ( UK ) are made of copper. They
usually incorporate an electrical element too for an alternatative source of
heating. Heating from the gas 'boiler' is by an independent water filled heat
exchanger ( coil of copper tube internally ) and typically run from a central
heating system


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Tom Paterson wrote:

> >From: Pooh Bear
>
> [thermocouples, gas WH]
>
> >Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> >
> >It opens the main burners automatically >on demand for hot water.
>
> The thermostat has a sensor in the tank. When the water temp falls below the
> setting, the "main" valve opens, allowing gas to flow to the burner. The pilot
> flame lights the burner, which runs until the set temp is reached again. The
> pilot flame thermocouple "safety loop" is there so that the burner lights off
> instead of an unlit pilot allowing the passing unburned nat. gas into the room
> (ka-boom).
>
> There's an "ECO" cutoff in the probe, too, which will shut off the gas if it
> gets too hot. Along with the T&P valve, the object is to prevent "runaway"
> (stuck on) burners from running the temp up until the tank ruptures.
> Steam explosion, no good. Water heaters flying like rocketships, I've seen it
> in "plumber training films". --TP

Ok - mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up as it
passes through.

Quite popular in the UK either as stand alone or as part of a central heating
'boiler'.

No wasted energy in storing hot water. No limit to the amount of hot water
available ( so you can't run out of hot water ).

The hot water storage tanks we do have here ( UK ) are made of copper. They
usually incorporate an electrical element too for an alternatative source of
heating. Heating from the gas 'boiler' is by an independent water filled heat
exchanger ( coil of copper tube internally ) and typically run from a central
heating system


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> > It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.
>
> When I lived in an apartment in Japan (new housing, 1970), we had one
> gas water heater in the kitchen and another in the bathroom. There was a
> pilot light and a small tank. Opening the faucet activated the burner
> which heated the water as it flowed. They worked great, and they were
> very inexpensive (you could buy one for about $20 in a department
> store). But the flame was pretty much open.
>
> When I got back to the US, I looked into getting a water heater like
> that for my upstairs bathroom but found that they were illegal in the
> US because of the open flame. There were (and probably still are -
> Arny will point to a line, I'm sure) fancy ones intended for mountain
> cabins and such but they were very expensive. It was cheaper to waste
> water waiting for the hot water to get through teh pipes.
>
> Incidentally, in the Japan apartment, the bathroom water heater had
> real plumbing going to it, but the gas in the kitchen came out of a
> two-spigot fixture that looked like what we had on the work benches in
> high school chem lab. Gas was connected by a rubber hose, and water
> was connected with what looked like a piece of garden hose with
> standard connections. The "hot water tap" was on the bottom of the
> water heater.

We used to have those 'open flame' types too. Made illegal since blocked flues can cause
carbon monoxide production that can leak into the room ( and poison you ). Every so often you
hear of someone on holiday in Spain dying from this type of water heating - not sure if
they've abandoned them there now too.

The current versions have 'sealed flues' The flue carries cold air in from the outside and
exhausts the 'used air' too. Usually a concentric arrangement with a dedicated flue cover.
They are sealed from room air this way. Otherwise works the same way. No tank involved btw.
Yes, you have to wait a little for the temp to get nice and warm but they are quite
efficient.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Now *that* actually sounds not dissimilar to my old gas water heater.
> > It opens the main burners automatically on demand for hot water.
>
> When I lived in an apartment in Japan (new housing, 1970), we had one
> gas water heater in the kitchen and another in the bathroom. There was a
> pilot light and a small tank. Opening the faucet activated the burner
> which heated the water as it flowed. They worked great, and they were
> very inexpensive (you could buy one for about $20 in a department
> store). But the flame was pretty much open.
>
> When I got back to the US, I looked into getting a water heater like
> that for my upstairs bathroom but found that they were illegal in the
> US because of the open flame. There were (and probably still are -
> Arny will point to a line, I'm sure) fancy ones intended for mountain
> cabins and such but they were very expensive. It was cheaper to waste
> water waiting for the hot water to get through teh pipes.
>
> Incidentally, in the Japan apartment, the bathroom water heater had
> real plumbing going to it, but the gas in the kitchen came out of a
> two-spigot fixture that looked like what we had on the work benches in
> high school chem lab. Gas was connected by a rubber hose, and water
> was connected with what looked like a piece of garden hose with
> standard connections. The "hot water tap" was on the bottom of the
> water heater.

We used to have those 'open flame' types too. Made illegal since blocked flues can cause
carbon monoxide production that can leak into the room ( and poison you ). Every so often you
hear of someone on holiday in Spain dying from this type of water heating - not sure if
they've abandoned them there now too.

The current versions have 'sealed flues' The flue carries cold air in from the outside and
exhausts the 'used air' too. Usually a concentric arrangement with a dedicated flue cover.
They are sealed from room air this way. Otherwise works the same way. No tank involved btw.
Yes, you have to wait a little for the temp to get nice and warm but they are quite
efficient.


Graham

[Tom Paterson]

From Pooh Bear:

> mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
>demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up >as
it passes through.

I found a website for USA sales of tankless gas (on demand) WH's, but I've
never seen one in the field. Sounds good to me...

Electric on-demand heaters are available and more popular where the water has
certain difficult high mineral content. One I looked at long ago was much
easier to de-scale than a tank unit. On-demand is also seen here in
under-counter models for kitchen use (saving long piping runs where there is a
tank heater for distant bath/laundry areas), and in hot water dispensers for
tea (ahem). Yes we do it differently here and that's not to say we do it
"best". Some homes have two 40-gallon (and up) water heaters, gas or electric.
Lots of energy "waste" there in service of convenience and lip service to water
conservation. Thanks for your posts, looking at on-demand pending the *next*
remodel (we never learn). --TP

[Tom Paterson]

From Pooh Bear:

> mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
>demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up >as
it passes through.

I found a website for USA sales of tankless gas (on demand) WH's, but I've
never seen one in the field. Sounds good to me...

Electric on-demand heaters are available and more popular where the water has
certain difficult high mineral content. One I looked at long ago was much
easier to de-scale than a tank unit. On-demand is also seen here in
under-counter models for kitchen use (saving long piping runs where there is a
tank heater for distant bath/laundry areas), and in hot water dispensers for
tea (ahem). Yes we do it differently here and that's not to say we do it
"best". Some homes have two 40-gallon (and up) water heaters, gas or electric.
Lots of energy "waste" there in service of convenience and lip service to water
conservation. Thanks for your posts, looking at on-demand pending the *next*
remodel (we never learn). --TP

[Roger W. Norman]

You got some of the quote from me and some from somewhere else, so you kinda
threw me. No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

But it's not IRON pipe because you can easily damage iron. It's maleable.
I've banged on black pipe and galvanized steel water piping and don't see
much of a difference in there tempered state or basic composition. I did,
however, look it up before I spoke on it.

I spent a number of years doing plumbing too, 2 of which were almost
specific to cutting and threading black pipe for gas pipeing. Remember,
iron is FE and a metal, whilst steel is an alloy that is basically carbon
and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt, sulfur,
molybdenum, tungsten and any number of other components. If you think of
iron in plumbing, you should think of cast iron stacks. I can't find
another example. The designation is black pipe being pipe without a zinc
coating, and galvanized pipe as pipe with a zinc coating. And while black
pipe may not carry potable water, it certainly can be used in water
applications such as radiators and other low pressure water carrying
environments.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Roger W. Norman"
>
> [black pipe]
> >Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the
black
> >appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
> >does in water pipes.
>
> In plumbing, we used black pipe per this description (from Keidel Co.):
>
> <When steel pipe is forged, a black oxide scale forms on its surface to
give it
> the finish we see on this type of pipe. Because steel is subject to rust
and
> corrosion, the factory also coats it with protective oil.
> It is used for gas distribution inside and outside the house, and for hot
water
> circulation in boiler systems. It is not used for potable water, or for
drain
> waste, or vent lines.
> It is sold in standard 21-foot lengths TBE.
> Black pipe is cut and threaded to fit the job. Fittings for this type of
pipe
> are of black malleable (soft) cast iron.>
>
> "Black galvanized" pipe I don't think I've ever seen. Even in moist crawl
> spaces, cheap old "black iron" pipe doesn't seem to rust away. For
underground
> use, the pipe is coated with "tar" and then a plastic sleeve (usually
yellow)
> is applied. Buried joints are taped to minimize exposure to soil and
water.
> --TP

[Roger W. Norman]

You got some of the quote from me and some from somewhere else, so you kinda
threw me. No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

But it's not IRON pipe because you can easily damage iron. It's maleable.
I've banged on black pipe and galvanized steel water piping and don't see
much of a difference in there tempered state or basic composition. I did,
however, look it up before I spoke on it.

I spent a number of years doing plumbing too, 2 of which were almost
specific to cutting and threading black pipe for gas pipeing. Remember,
iron is FE and a metal, whilst steel is an alloy that is basically carbon
and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt, sulfur,
molybdenum, tungsten and any number of other components. If you think of
iron in plumbing, you should think of cast iron stacks. I can't find
another example. The designation is black pipe being pipe without a zinc
coating, and galvanized pipe as pipe with a zinc coating. And while black
pipe may not carry potable water, it certainly can be used in water
applications such as radiators and other low pressure water carrying
environments.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Roger W. Norman"
>
> [black pipe]
> >Actually, it's galvanized steel with a carbon component that gives the
black
> >appearance and stops it from having pinprick leaks like galvanized steel
> >does in water pipes.
>
> In plumbing, we used black pipe per this description (from Keidel Co.):
>
> <When steel pipe is forged, a black oxide scale forms on its surface to
give it
> the finish we see on this type of pipe. Because steel is subject to rust
and
> corrosion, the factory also coats it with protective oil.
> It is used for gas distribution inside and outside the house, and for hot
water
> circulation in boiler systems. It is not used for potable water, or for
drain
> waste, or vent lines.
> It is sold in standard 21-foot lengths TBE.
> Black pipe is cut and threaded to fit the job. Fittings for this type of
pipe
> are of black malleable (soft) cast iron.>
>
> "Black galvanized" pipe I don't think I've ever seen. Even in moist crawl
> spaces, cheap old "black iron" pipe doesn't seem to rust away. For
underground
> use, the pipe is coated with "tar" and then a plastic sleeve (usually
yellow)
> is applied. Buried joints are taped to minimize exposure to soil and
water.
> --TP

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
"Roger W. Norman" > wrote:

[snip]

> and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt, sulfur,
^^^^^^
Your audio background is showing here: I think you mean nickel?

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
"Roger W. Norman" > wrote:

[snip]

> and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt, sulfur,
^^^^^^
Your audio background is showing here: I think you mean nickel?

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Roger W. Norman]

Silly, what do you think supplies the thermostat? Although I admit that not
"all" water heaters use a thermostat that works by electricity, you probably
shouldn't have one if you want efficiency these days. Some cheaper ones use
coils that expand as the water is heated and cut off, shrinking until the
water is cooled enough to trip the switch again, but still, most today use
electricity to be more "accurate". Plus, a lot of new gas heaters do NOT
have a pilot light but rather switch on the gas when the temperature is read
to be too low and then fire the heater. Particularly the new "on demand"
non-tank water heaters.

You need to watch more "know it all" channels! <g>

But then again, put black pipe and copper directly together and you'll get
corrosion, plain and simple. It's just worse of you have an electronic
thermostat.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman > wrote:
> >Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> Silly, that's what the gas line is for. Electricity is too expensive to
> waste heating water.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

Silly, what do you think supplies the thermostat? Although I admit that not
"all" water heaters use a thermostat that works by electricity, you probably
shouldn't have one if you want efficiency these days. Some cheaper ones use
coils that expand as the water is heated and cut off, shrinking until the
water is cooled enough to trip the switch again, but still, most today use
electricity to be more "accurate". Plus, a lot of new gas heaters do NOT
have a pilot light but rather switch on the gas when the temperature is read
to be too low and then fire the heater. Particularly the new "on demand"
non-tank water heaters.

You need to watch more "know it all" channels! <g>

But then again, put black pipe and copper directly together and you'll get
corrosion, plain and simple. It's just worse of you have an electronic
thermostat.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Roger W. Norman > wrote:
> >Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> Silly, that's what the gas line is for. Electricity is too expensive to
> waste heating water.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

During our big hurricane last year I didn't have to worry about the gas
boiler, but I can tie into our electrical box to power the thermostat. Then
again, my gas range didn't work without matches.

A typical $200 water heater uses an internal coil and a mechanical switch to
open the gas pitcock. Not efficient though and now accounts for far less
sales than those with electronic components that measure heat, gas flow,
etc.

Again, I shouldn't have said "all" water heaters. But, by far, on today's
market, gas water heaters have and electronic component that advances
corrosion and it's something people should be aware of. It IS NOT a problem
with electric water heaters because they don't have different metal
components coming together in a single unit.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Logan Shaw at
> wrote on 11/17/04 1:14 PM:
>
> >> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >> because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
> > shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
> > 3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
> > light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
> > turning on the flashlight again once I was done.
> >
> > - Logan
>
>
> The original post must have meant electric heating systems. I had a
> similar experience as above - we were out power for ten days due to an ice
> storm, but the gas appliances worked fine. Thank God we continued to have
> hot water, because that and the wood stove were the only things keeping us
> warm. We also could cook by lighting the stove with a match.
>
> Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends
too
> much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
> unable to bypass the system to light it.
>
> Carlos
>

[Roger W. Norman]

During our big hurricane last year I didn't have to worry about the gas
boiler, but I can tie into our electrical box to power the thermostat. Then
again, my gas range didn't work without matches.

A typical $200 water heater uses an internal coil and a mechanical switch to
open the gas pitcock. Not efficient though and now accounts for far less
sales than those with electronic components that measure heat, gas flow,
etc.

Again, I shouldn't have said "all" water heaters. But, by far, on today's
market, gas water heaters have and electronic component that advances
corrosion and it's something people should be aware of. It IS NOT a problem
with electric water heaters because they don't have different metal
components coming together in a single unit.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Logan Shaw at
> wrote on 11/17/04 1:14 PM:
>
> >> Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> >> because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > I beg to differ based on experiences several years ago taking a hot
> > shower in a pitch dark house that had been without electricity for
> > 3 days. I developed a little ritual that involved using the flash
> > light to get to the shower, then showering in total darkness, then
> > turning on the flashlight again once I was done.
> >
> > - Logan
>
>
> The original post must have meant electric heating systems. I had a
> similar experience as above - we were out power for ten days due to an ice
> storm, but the gas appliances worked fine. Thank God we continued to have
> hot water, because that and the wood stove were the only things keeping us
> warm. We also could cook by lighting the stove with a match.
>
> Our hot water radiator heating system is actually gas-fired, but depends
too
> much on electricity to make it run and respond to the thermostat. I was
> unable to bypass the system to light it.
>
> Carlos
>

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Ok - mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
> demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up as it
> passes through.
>
> Quite popular in the UK either as stand alone or as part of a central heating
> 'boiler'.
>
> No wasted energy in storing hot water. No limit to the amount of hot water
> available ( so you can't run out of hot water ).

Believe it or not, we had almost just this same discussion a few months
ago on another newsgroup I read.

One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
so there is another level of insulation too.

Plus, storage tanks do have some advantages. You can put them on
a timer and shut power off during peak electrical demand and still
have hot water during those times, because the water will stay
plenty hot for quite some time. And this is not just hypothetical;
it's becoming fairly normal[1].

Also, it seems like demand water heaters are less practical when
natural gas isn't available cheaply. In that case, you need LOTS
of current to heat that water, so you have to run special circuits
to every spot where hot water might be used.

Plus with a central system, you avoid the extra expense of putting
a heater in every appliance (clothes washer, dishwasher, etc.) that
might need hot water.

So there are advantages and disadvantages to each way of doing it.

- Logan

[1] along with thermostats for the HVAC that are controlled
centrally by the power company; if they experience a
short-term spike in demand, they can tell the unit to shut off
for the next 10 minutes; this helps them smooth out the peaks.

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Ok - mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water on
> demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up as it
> passes through.
>
> Quite popular in the UK either as stand alone or as part of a central heating
> 'boiler'.
>
> No wasted energy in storing hot water. No limit to the amount of hot water
> available ( so you can't run out of hot water ).

Believe it or not, we had almost just this same discussion a few months
ago on another newsgroup I read.

One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
so there is another level of insulation too.

Plus, storage tanks do have some advantages. You can put them on
a timer and shut power off during peak electrical demand and still
have hot water during those times, because the water will stay
plenty hot for quite some time. And this is not just hypothetical;
it's becoming fairly normal[1].

Also, it seems like demand water heaters are less practical when
natural gas isn't available cheaply. In that case, you need LOTS
of current to heat that water, so you have to run special circuits
to every spot where hot water might be used.

Plus with a central system, you avoid the extra expense of putting
a heater in every appliance (clothes washer, dishwasher, etc.) that
might need hot water.

So there are advantages and disadvantages to each way of doing it.

- Logan

[1] along with thermostats for the HVAC that are controlled
centrally by the power company; if they experience a
short-term spike in demand, they can tell the unit to shut off
for the next 10 minutes; this helps them smooth out the peaks.

[Roger W. Norman]

Yeah, but I didn't get back to the group until now, so read what I've
already written. The thermocoupled device (Dale Farmer's message) is
another form of generating electricity, btw, so there goes that idea of NO
electricity! <g>

Only the oldest of gas fired water heaters used NO electricity. They used
mechanical coils inside of the water heater (cause leaks) that expanded
until the water was at the "somewhat" right temperature, and then contracted
until they opened the gas again, which the pilot light fired. Today none of
these devices work the same way because even a pilot light is costly,
although I bought a new one six years ago and it still uses the pilot light.
So it's recent, but still accurate.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> You never heard of gas water heaters?
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Yeah, but I didn't get back to the group until now, so read what I've
already written. The thermocoupled device (Dale Farmer's message) is
another form of generating electricity, btw, so there goes that idea of NO
electricity! <g>

Only the oldest of gas fired water heaters used NO electricity. They used
mechanical coils inside of the water heater (cause leaks) that expanded
until the water was at the "somewhat" right temperature, and then contracted
until they opened the gas again, which the pilot light fired. Today none of
these devices work the same way because even a pilot light is costly,
although I bought a new one six years ago and it still uses the pilot light.
So it's recent, but still accurate.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>
>
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
>
> You never heard of gas water heaters?
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

I've considered getting one here (tankless) because it's the most efficient
use of energy to heat water. There are alternatives, like a radiator boiler
that also heats hot water, but I'm not certain of how the exchange works
because you certainly don't want your boiler working when your AC is on, but
you still need hot water. I've seen everything from multiple tank systems
with ancillary heating to tankless systems that use multiple burners to
allow multiple bathrooms to have uninterupted hot water for showers without
the over/under burn.

BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical component
to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
shouldn't be by today. So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the pilot
light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas water
heater.

I didn't think we needed to get too involved with the specifics but I see I
was wrong.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> From Pooh Bear:
>
> > mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water
on
> >demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up
>as
> it passes through.
>
> I found a website for USA sales of tankless gas (on demand) WH's, but I've
> never seen one in the field. Sounds good to me...
>
> Electric on-demand heaters are available and more popular where the water
has
> certain difficult high mineral content. One I looked at long ago was much
> easier to de-scale than a tank unit. On-demand is also seen here in
> under-counter models for kitchen use (saving long piping runs where there
is a
> tank heater for distant bath/laundry areas), and in hot water dispensers
for
> tea (ahem). Yes we do it differently here and that's not to say we do it
> "best". Some homes have two 40-gallon (and up) water heaters, gas or
electric.
> Lots of energy "waste" there in service of convenience and lip service to
water
> conservation. Thanks for your posts, looking at on-demand pending the
*next*
> remodel (we never learn). --TP

[Roger W. Norman]

I've considered getting one here (tankless) because it's the most efficient
use of energy to heat water. There are alternatives, like a radiator boiler
that also heats hot water, but I'm not certain of how the exchange works
because you certainly don't want your boiler working when your AC is on, but
you still need hot water. I've seen everything from multiple tank systems
with ancillary heating to tankless systems that use multiple burners to
allow multiple bathrooms to have uninterupted hot water for showers without
the over/under burn.

BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical component
to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
shouldn't be by today. So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the pilot
light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas water
heater.

I didn't think we needed to get too involved with the specifics but I see I
was wrong.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Tom Paterson" > wrote in message
...
> From Pooh Bear:
>
> > mine worked on a similar principle but had no tank. You just heat water
on
> >demand. The flame heats a heat exchanger directly and the water heats up
>as
> it passes through.
>
> I found a website for USA sales of tankless gas (on demand) WH's, but I've
> never seen one in the field. Sounds good to me...
>
> Electric on-demand heaters are available and more popular where the water
has
> certain difficult high mineral content. One I looked at long ago was much
> easier to de-scale than a tank unit. On-demand is also seen here in
> under-counter models for kitchen use (saving long piping runs where there
is a
> tank heater for distant bath/laundry areas), and in hot water dispensers
for
> tea (ahem). Yes we do it differently here and that's not to say we do it
> "best". Some homes have two 40-gallon (and up) water heaters, gas or
electric.
> Lots of energy "waste" there in service of convenience and lip service to
water
> conservation. Thanks for your posts, looking at on-demand pending the
*next*
> remodel (we never learn). --TP

[Roger W. Norman]

It's in the above thread.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"mr c deckard" > wrote in message
om...
> ?? either you sent that one too quick or i'm missing something -- most
> of the heaters here in st louis are nat gas.
>
> chris deckard
> saint louis mo
>
>
>
>
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>...
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > --
> >

[Roger W. Norman]

It's in the above thread.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"mr c deckard" > wrote in message
om...
> ?? either you sent that one too quick or i'm missing something -- most
> of the heaters here in st louis are nat gas.
>
> chris deckard
> saint louis mo
>
>
>
>
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
>...
> > Yes there is. All water heaters have an active electrical connection
> > because no water heater would heat water without it.
> >
> > --
> >

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, one letter out of an entire post! <g> Of course, had it been the wrong
chord in the wrong place in a song, perhaps it would have been as noticable,
too! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt,
sulfur,
> ^^^^^^
> Your audio background is showing here: I think you mean nickel?
>
> -Jay
> --
> x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
> x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
> x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
> x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, one letter out of an entire post! <g> Of course, had it been the wrong
chord in the wrong place in a song, perhaps it would have been as noticable,
too! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > and manganese at the lowest level, and can include nichol, cobalt,
sulfur,
> ^^^^^^
> Your audio background is showing here: I think you mean nickel?
>
> -Jay
> --
> x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
> x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
> x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
> x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Roger W. Norman]

What's "plastic pipe"? Polyvinyl Chloride? In that case it's expensive to
have PVC potable waterpipe because it's manfactured differently and it's not
the same size as normal PVC and it requires a different cleaning solution
and bonding agent. I just ran Potable PVC to my outdoor kitchen cookstation
and the price was something like $40 for maybe 25 feet of run to hook up to
a cold water sink. I can't imagine what a house would cost to use Potable
PVC for the water pipeing.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Paterson wrote:
>
> > >From: Pooh Bear
> >
> > >Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the
water
> > >too
> > >).
> > >
> > >The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then
is
> > >converted
> > >to copper inside the property.
> > >
> > >Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.
> >
> > Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA
spec):
> >
> > <Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material
manufactured to
> > the requirements of ASTM B 88 â?" Standard Specification for Seamless
Copper
> > Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types
K, L,
> > and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L
being of
> > intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from
copper
> > alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper
(Cu)
> > and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous
(P) of
> > 0.015 % - 0.040 %.>
> >
> > This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water
heaters
> > etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form
the
> > flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain
soft
> > copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to
be
> > orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen
embrittlement").
> > Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines
(still flare
> > ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare
connectors,
> > I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP
>
> Clearly very different to here.
>
> We use the same copper pipe for water and gas. Optionally, water may be
run in
> plastic pipe.
>
> Don't use 'flared' joints either.
>
> Graham
>

[Roger W. Norman]

What's "plastic pipe"? Polyvinyl Chloride? In that case it's expensive to
have PVC potable waterpipe because it's manfactured differently and it's not
the same size as normal PVC and it requires a different cleaning solution
and bonding agent. I just ran Potable PVC to my outdoor kitchen cookstation
and the price was something like $40 for maybe 25 feet of run to hook up to
a cold water sink. I can't imagine what a house would cost to use Potable
PVC for the water pipeing.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Paterson wrote:
>
> > >From: Pooh Bear
> >
> > >Over here ( UK ) the gas pipe to the heater will be copper ( as is the
water
> > >too
> > >).
> > >
> > >The gas entering my home starts off as a steel pipe though - and then
is
> > >converted
> > >to copper inside the property.
> > >
> > >Never seen any examples over here of the 'orange discolouration'.
> >
> > Your copper gas lines must be different material from water lines (USA
spec):
> >
> > <Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper material
manufactured to
> > the requirements of ASTM B 88 â?" Standard Specification for Seamless
Copper
> > Water Tube, of three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types
K, L,
> > and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with type L
being of
> > intermediate thickness. All three types of tube are manufactured from
copper
> > alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper
(Cu)
> > and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous
(P) of
> > 0.015 % - 0.040 %.>
> >
> > This stuff, when used with flare fittings for gas connections to water
heaters
> > etc., does get orange especially where the copper was stressed to form
the
> > flare, though they might take some years to fail. Leaks in older plain
soft
> > copper connectors are "usual" (more than common); the flares are seen to
be
> > orange and/or black and crumbly upon disassembly ("hydrogen
embrittlement").
> > Coated corrugated copper lines and all-stainless steel flexi lines
(still flare
> > ends on half union fittings) have replaced plain soft copper flare
connectors,
> > I believe at least since the 1984 Uniform Code. --TP
>
> Clearly very different to here.
>
> We use the same copper pipe for water and gas. Optionally, water may be
run in
> plastic pipe.
>
> Don't use 'flared' joints either.
>
> Graham
>

[Roger W. Norman]

> Yoobetchya, but he was going to power a house with it.

No I weren't! <g> I said:

"Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
generate enough electricity for a house?"

I mean, a "million miles of copper and black pipe" should have been a clue!
<g> Funny, but on the macrocosmic spectrum of the universe, it takes
ungodly amounts of material to garner small amounts of power (virtually
negligable), but on the microscopic spectrum, the smallest particles can
emanate vast scales of energy. Perhaps somewhere inbetween we can power a
house. In the meantime, I'll keep 10 gallons of gas on hand to feed my
generator when I need power and everyone else doesn't have it. Obviously, I
don't trust in the million miles of pipe theory! <g> I don't even have the
breath to take a toke off that pipe.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> > In article > writes:
> >
> >
> >>That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
> >
> >
> > If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> > prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> > plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> > away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> > boat leak.
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

> Yoobetchya, but he was going to power a house with it.

No I weren't! <g> I said:

"Makes one wonder if, since there's enough difference between two pieces of
metal to generate an electrical difference, then perhaps we have a method of
free power right there, although it would be exceedingly small. Maybe with
a million miles of copper and some black pipe here and there we could
generate enough electricity for a house?"

I mean, a "million miles of copper and black pipe" should have been a clue!
<g> Funny, but on the macrocosmic spectrum of the universe, it takes
ungodly amounts of material to garner small amounts of power (virtually
negligable), but on the microscopic spectrum, the smallest particles can
emanate vast scales of energy. Perhaps somewhere inbetween we can power a
house. In the meantime, I'll keep 10 gallons of gas on hand to feed my
generator when I need power and everyone else doesn't have it. Obviously, I
don't trust in the million miles of pipe theory! <g> I don't even have the
breath to take a toke off that pipe.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"S O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> > In article > writes:
> >
> >
> >>That's how a battery works, and it consumes one of the metals.
> >
> >
> > If one of those metals is the 'anode rod' then that's a good thing. It
> > prevents the pipe or the tank from being consumed. That's what anode
> > plates on the bottom of a boat hull do - keep the electrolytic action
> > away from metal that, when enough was removed, would would make the
> > boat leak.
>
>

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

>But it's not IRON pipe because you can easily damage iron. It's maleable.
>I've banged on black pipe and galvanized steel water piping and don't see
>much of a difference in there tempered state or basic composition. I did,
>however, look it up before I spoke on it.

Yup, that's why I put the "black iron" pipe quote marks where I did-- it's just
an expression. The fittings used are malleble cast iron.

> If you think of
>iron in plumbing, you should think of cast iron stacks. I can't find
>another example.

Yup, CI pipe, still the norm for commercial and used in homes for noise
suppression, or where required by code (PVC burns and gives off fumes).

>The designation is black pipe being pipe without a zinc
>coating, and galvanized pipe as pipe with a zinc coating.

Yes, "black iron" is just an expression, possibly local. Pronounced "arn" here
in Texas.

>black
>pipe may not carry potable water, it certainly can be used in water
>applications such as radiators and other low pressure water carrying
>environments.

Sprinkler (fire abatement) systems-- "only carries water once", cheaper...

(out of order snip)

>No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
>steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
>actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
>I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

>No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
>steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
>actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
>I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

I'll be happy to find a link to the material you're talking about, but the
"black pipe" I've seen is just steel with a "crust" on it from forming, and an
oily coating used to prevent rusting. After the material I've seen gets wet, it
will rust, inside and out.

I'm wondering if there are special codes where you live (or worked) that demand
a different material.

OT, not political. Good deal... --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Roger W. Norman"

>But it's not IRON pipe because you can easily damage iron. It's maleable.
>I've banged on black pipe and galvanized steel water piping and don't see
>much of a difference in there tempered state or basic composition. I did,
>however, look it up before I spoke on it.

Yup, that's why I put the "black iron" pipe quote marks where I did-- it's just
an expression. The fittings used are malleble cast iron.

> If you think of
>iron in plumbing, you should think of cast iron stacks. I can't find
>another example.

Yup, CI pipe, still the norm for commercial and used in homes for noise
suppression, or where required by code (PVC burns and gives off fumes).

>The designation is black pipe being pipe without a zinc
>coating, and galvanized pipe as pipe with a zinc coating.

Yes, "black iron" is just an expression, possibly local. Pronounced "arn" here
in Texas.

>black
>pipe may not carry potable water, it certainly can be used in water
>applications such as radiators and other low pressure water carrying
>environments.

Sprinkler (fire abatement) systems-- "only carries water once", cheaper...

(out of order snip)

>No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
>steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
>actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
>I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

>No, black pipe isn't for potable water, but it is galvanized
>steel with a carbon component and without the zinc coating. And it's
>actually impregnated with an oily residue that exudes from the pipe because
>I've never been able to wipe it off for any periods of time! <g>

I'll be happy to find a link to the material you're talking about, but the
"black pipe" I've seen is just steel with a "crust" on it from forming, and an
oily coating used to prevent rusting. After the material I've seen gets wet, it
will rust, inside and out.

I'm wondering if there are special codes where you live (or worked) that demand
a different material.

OT, not political. Good deal... --TP

[murph]

> >>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.
>
> A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
> the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
> contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
> water wouldn't need this.

There was a timely segment on "Ask This Old House" re: water heaters.
They showed a cut away view of a bad tank. Naturally, the anode was
shot, dissolved to almost nothing. Most often made of zinc or magnesium.

I posted here the other day about going through 3 heaters & another one
soon over the course of 14 yrs. Also posted that I get a lot of calcium
when I drain or purge the tank. Even with 2 whole house filters before
the tank.

Well they went on to another tank to demonstrate replacing the anode
rod. Pulled the old one out (with a huge cheater bar on a 1/2" drive
ratchet). The anode was caked with calcium rendering it usless. Not
eaten up at all, just caked with it. So the plumber slides in a new one.
But the host then asks the plumber "what about those heaters in low
ceiling basements"? Exactly what I was thinking. The plumber whips out a
collapsible anode. Pretty clever.

[murph]

> >>> What's the anode connection on a gas water heater ?

> Its a sacrificial anode. It gives up ions to the water so the pipes and
> tank don't, therefore it erodes and is easy to replace.
>
> A microsopic current flows between the pipes and the anode, generated by
> the "battery" formed when the anode and the pipes are brought into
> contact with the water. Impurities act as the electrolyte; distilled
> water wouldn't need this.

There was a timely segment on "Ask This Old House" re: water heaters.
They showed a cut away view of a bad tank. Naturally, the anode was
shot, dissolved to almost nothing. Most often made of zinc or magnesium.

I posted here the other day about going through 3 heaters & another one
soon over the course of 14 yrs. Also posted that I get a lot of calcium
when I drain or purge the tank. Even with 2 whole house filters before
the tank.

Well they went on to another tank to demonstrate replacing the anode
rod. Pulled the old one out (with a huge cheater bar on a 1/2" drive
ratchet). The anode was caked with calcium rendering it usless. Not
eaten up at all, just caked with it. So the plumber slides in a new one.
But the host then asks the plumber "what about those heaters in low
ceiling basements"? Exactly what I was thinking. The plumber whips out a
collapsible anode. Pretty clever.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
> water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
> of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
> and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
> so there is another level of insulation too.

The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
the shower. Modern houses are a little better because they insulate
the pipes, but when my house was built, nobody worried about energy
cost.

There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
> water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
> of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
> and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
> so there is another level of insulation too.

The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
the shower. Modern houses are a little better because they insulate
the pipes, but when my house was built, nobody worried about energy
cost.

There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical component
> to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
> shouldn't be by today.

Let's not get Philly on us here and argue a point that's correct but
not relevant. Remember that we were talking about sediment in a water
heater tank and how the "Anode rod" helps to manage this by
electrolytic action.

The thermocouple that controls the pilot valve is sufficiently
isolated from the water that it cannot contribute to the electrolysis,
or even to the build-up of sediment.

> So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
> conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the pilot
> light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas water
> heater.

But not through the water, and not through the tank.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical component
> to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
> shouldn't be by today.

Let's not get Philly on us here and argue a point that's correct but
not relevant. Remember that we were talking about sediment in a water
heater tank and how the "Anode rod" helps to manage this by
electrolytic action.

The thermocouple that controls the pilot valve is sufficiently
isolated from the water that it cannot contribute to the electrolysis,
or even to the build-up of sediment.

> So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
> conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the pilot
> light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas water
> heater.

But not through the water, and not through the tank.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <znr1100806314k@trad> (that's me!) writes:

> The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> the shower.

To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
here)

Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
or bathroom sink.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <znr1100806314k@trad> (that's me!) writes:

> The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> the shower.

To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
here)

Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
or bathroom sink.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Ron Capik]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> < ...snip.. >
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.
>

Short answer: dissolved gas.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Ron Capik]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>
> < ...snip.. >
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.
>

Short answer: dissolved gas.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Jay Kadis]

In article <znr1100869222k@trad>, (Mike Rivers) wrote:

> In article <znr1100806314k@trad> (that's me!) writes:
>
> > The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> > few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> > heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> > run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> > the shower.
>
> To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
> and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
> here)
>
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.
>

Plenty of possibilities:

different density
different concentration of dissolved gasses
different pressure
hot water pipes insulated, cold water pipes not

some of which would affect the turbulence in the pipes.

On the other hand, I haven't noticed such a difference in my house. I'm going
to have to listen carefully tomorrow. We're on a hill and water is electrically
pumped, resulting in lots of air in the water, so that might be obscuring the
temperature-related sound differences.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article <znr1100869222k@trad>, (Mike Rivers) wrote:

> In article <znr1100806314k@trad> (that's me!) writes:
>
> > The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> > few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> > heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> > run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> > the shower.
>
> To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
> and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
> here)
>
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.
>

Plenty of possibilities:

different density
different concentration of dissolved gasses
different pressure
hot water pipes insulated, cold water pipes not

some of which would affect the turbulence in the pipes.

On the other hand, I haven't noticed such a difference in my house. I'm going
to have to listen carefully tomorrow. We're on a hill and water is electrically
pumped, resulting in lots of air in the water, so that might be obscuring the
temperature-related sound differences.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100869222k@trad

> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.

Comment about dissolved gasses seems relevant. Heat water and the dissolved
gasses tend to form bubbles, which could have audible effects, particularly
when they pass through valves.

Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change length. The
length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if stickpin is
involved.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100869222k@trad

> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.

Comment about dissolved gasses seems relevant. Heat water and the dissolved
gasses tend to form bubbles, which could have audible effects, particularly
when they pass through valves.

Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change length. The
length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if stickpin is
involved.

[Arny Krueger]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message


Correction:

.. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if sticktion
is involved.

[Arny Krueger]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message


Correction:

.. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if sticktion
is involved.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article > writes:
>
>
>> One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
>> water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
>> of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
>> and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
>> so there is another level of insulation too.
>
>
> The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> the shower. Modern houses are a little better because they insulate
> the pipes, but when my house was built, nobody worried about energy
> cost.
>
> There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
> turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
> the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.

There are also tankless water heaters (used in Europe and the orient for 50+ years now) which will typically halve your gas bill. The most efficient use is usually 2 or more small units close to the point of use. See Takagai, Rinnai, Aquastar, etc.

Those hot water loop systems are essential in large multistory commercial buildings and I've worked on a few monster houses that had them.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article > writes:
>
>
>> One of the points raised was that the heat lost by a storage type
>> water heater is not as great as you might think. It is a big tank
>> of water (thus very high thermal mass) with not a lot of surface area,
>> and a lot of insulation. And it is usually located in a small closet,
>> so there is another level of insulation too.
>
>
> The loss, at least in my house, is in the uninsulated pipes. There's a
> few gallons of water in the pipe between the basement (where the water
> heater is) and the most distant bathroom, so I have to let the water
> run for about a minute before the hot water from the heater gets to
> the shower. Modern houses are a little better because they insulate
> the pipes, but when my house was built, nobody worried about energy
> cost.
>
> There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
> turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
> the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.

There are also tankless water heaters (used in Europe and the orient for 50+ years now) which will typically halve your gas bill. The most efficient use is usually 2 or more small units close to the point of use. See Takagai, Rinnai, Aquastar, etc.

Those hot water loop systems are essential in large multistory commercial buildings and I've worked on a few monster houses that had them.

[Roger W. Norman]

OK, I'm out of my element! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100868961k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical
component
> > to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
> > shouldn't be by today.
>
> Let's not get Philly on us here and argue a point that's correct but
> not relevant. Remember that we were talking about sediment in a water
> heater tank and how the "Anode rod" helps to manage this by
> electrolytic action.
>
> The thermocouple that controls the pilot valve is sufficiently
> isolated from the water that it cannot contribute to the electrolysis,
> or even to the build-up of sediment.
>
> > So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
> > conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the
pilot
> > light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas
water
> > heater.
>
> But not through the water, and not through the tank.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Roger W. Norman]

OK, I'm out of my element! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100868961k@trad...
>
> In article > writes:
>
> > BUT, my point was that all hot water heaters have some electrical
component
> > to them but the very oldest, and even if those are in operation they
> > shouldn't be by today.
>
> Let's not get Philly on us here and argue a point that's correct but
> not relevant. Remember that we were talking about sediment in a water
> heater tank and how the "Anode rod" helps to manage this by
> electrolytic action.
>
> The thermocouple that controls the pilot valve is sufficiently
> isolated from the water that it cannot contribute to the electrolysis,
> or even to the build-up of sediment.
>
> > So whether it's by electronic monitoring of heating
> > conditions or thermocoulpled devices that shut down the gas when the
pilot
> > light goes out, there's some current flowing somewhere inside of a gas
water
> > heater.
>
> But not through the water, and not through the tank.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers )
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Arny Krueger at
wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:

> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change length. The
> length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if stickpin is
> involved.
>
>
Okay, this seems really bizarre to be discussing hot water heaters on an
audio newsgroup, but why not? The internet is a truly strange place...

BUT I have an audio question related to Arny's comment above.

When our hot water radiator system fires up in the morning the pipes start
banging. Common phenomenon wherever there is hot water heat. I know it's
from the pipes "expanding", but just exactly how does pipe expansion make
the sound? Is it the pipe expanding against the 2x4 brackets that keep it
in place in the wall? Is it the pipe expanding against the attached
couplings at either end of its length?

Is it the pipe itself? If so, how does the expansion actually make the
clang and tic-tic-tic sounds? Sound is made from one thing hitting another
and the adjacent air being disturbed, so if it's a single thing - a pipe -
what about the pipe's expansion is causing the sound pressure wave? can
someone give me the physics of heat expansion effects without reverting to
"well, it's from the expansion."

Always wondered,
Carlos

[Carlos Alden]

in article , Arny Krueger at
wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:

> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change length. The
> length changes could cause audible effects, particularly if stickpin is
> involved.
>
>
Okay, this seems really bizarre to be discussing hot water heaters on an
audio newsgroup, but why not? The internet is a truly strange place...

BUT I have an audio question related to Arny's comment above.

When our hot water radiator system fires up in the morning the pipes start
banging. Common phenomenon wherever there is hot water heat. I know it's
from the pipes "expanding", but just exactly how does pipe expansion make
the sound? Is it the pipe expanding against the 2x4 brackets that keep it
in place in the wall? Is it the pipe expanding against the attached
couplings at either end of its length?

Is it the pipe itself? If so, how does the expansion actually make the
clang and tic-tic-tic sounds? Sound is made from one thing hitting another
and the adjacent air being disturbed, so if it's a single thing - a pipe -
what about the pipe's expansion is causing the sound pressure wave? can
someone give me the physics of heat expansion effects without reverting to
"well, it's from the expansion."

Always wondered,
Carlos

[Logan Shaw]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.

Well, I don't know why it happens, but I can say you're not the only
one to observe the phenomenon. I think I may have even e-mailed it
in to The Straight Dope a few years ago. (They already have an
answer to a question about why shower curtains move the direction
they do, so I figured it was within their subject area.) I don't
think they ever published an answer. Oh well.

I did notice just now, however, that they have a question which might
be related. Someone submitted a question asking why the hot water in
their house would come out nice and strong initially but then slow to
a trickle pretty quickly thereafter. The answer turned out to be
pretty simple: because the heat makes the washer in the faucet expand
and block off some of the flow.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.

Well, I don't know why it happens, but I can say you're not the only
one to observe the phenomenon. I think I may have even e-mailed it
in to The Straight Dope a few years ago. (They already have an
answer to a question about why shower curtains move the direction
they do, so I figured it was within their subject area.) I don't
think they ever published an answer. Oh well.

I did notice just now, however, that they have a question which might
be related. Someone submitted a question asking why the hot water in
their house would come out nice and strong initially but then slow to
a trickle pretty quickly thereafter. The answer turned out to be
pretty simple: because the heat makes the washer in the faucet expand
and block off some of the flow.

- Logan

[Arny Krueger]

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message


> in article , Arny Krueger at
> wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:

>> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change
>> length. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly
>> if stiction is involved.

> BUT I have an audio question related to Arny's comment above.

> When our hot water radiator system fires up in the morning the pipes
> start banging. Common phenomenon wherever there is hot water heat.
> I know it's from the pipes "expanding", but just exactly how does
> pipe expansion make the sound? Is it the pipe expanding against the
> 2x4 brackets that keep it in place in the wall? Is it the pipe
> expanding against the attached couplings at either end of its length?

> Is it the pipe itself? If so, how does the expansion actually make
> the clang and tic-tic-tic sounds? Sound is made from one thing
> hitting another and the adjacent air being disturbed, so if it's a
> single thing - a pipe - what about the pipe's expansion is causing
> the sound pressure wave? can someone give me the physics of heat
> expansion effects without reverting to "well, it's from the
> expansion."

I alluded to the most common, probable effect above as stiction. Stiction is
a contraction of sticky and friction, which tends to make things move in
jerks as opposed to say fluid friction, which tends to make things move
smoothly.

Pipes are typically mechanically clamped in place inside a building. They go
through holes in timbers and beams, they are clamped to beams and timbers in
other places, and they are constrained by appliances and other pipes at
their ends. If an engineer wanted this whole lashup to exapand and contract
as silently as possible, there would be minimal sliding contact anywhere,
and where there was sliding contact, there would either be something
resilient like rubber or something with very little friction like teflon. In
addtion, to silence this whole works there would be things like expansion
joints, probably in the form of copper bellows and the like. Or, the pipes
would include sections that bent rather than pushing along the length.

[Arny Krueger]

"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message


> in article , Arny Krueger at
> wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:

>> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change
>> length. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly
>> if stiction is involved.

> BUT I have an audio question related to Arny's comment above.

> When our hot water radiator system fires up in the morning the pipes
> start banging. Common phenomenon wherever there is hot water heat.
> I know it's from the pipes "expanding", but just exactly how does
> pipe expansion make the sound? Is it the pipe expanding against the
> 2x4 brackets that keep it in place in the wall? Is it the pipe
> expanding against the attached couplings at either end of its length?

> Is it the pipe itself? If so, how does the expansion actually make
> the clang and tic-tic-tic sounds? Sound is made from one thing
> hitting another and the adjacent air being disturbed, so if it's a
> single thing - a pipe - what about the pipe's expansion is causing
> the sound pressure wave? can someone give me the physics of heat
> expansion effects without reverting to "well, it's from the
> expansion."

I alluded to the most common, probable effect above as stiction. Stiction is
a contraction of sticky and friction, which tends to make things move in
jerks as opposed to say fluid friction, which tends to make things move
smoothly.

Pipes are typically mechanically clamped in place inside a building. They go
through holes in timbers and beams, they are clamped to beams and timbers in
other places, and they are constrained by appliances and other pipes at
their ends. If an engineer wanted this whole lashup to exapand and contract
as silently as possible, there would be minimal sliding contact anywhere,
and where there was sliding contact, there would either be something
resilient like rubber or something with very little friction like teflon. In
addtion, to silence this whole works there would be things like expansion
joints, probably in the form of copper bellows and the like. Or, the pipes
would include sections that bent rather than pushing along the length.

[Steve L.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1100806314k@trad:

> There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
> turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
> the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.

In Monterey county,CA it's a requirement for remodels and new construction,
not because of the conveience but because water here is scarce, so it's
primary function is to save water. A good thing in the long run.

[Steve L.]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1100806314k@trad:

> There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> when a tap isn't open. That assures that you get hot water when you
> turn on the tap, but it also means that you're heating the house with
> the water heater. Probably not a good thing in the long run.

In Monterey county,CA it's a requirement for remodels and new construction,
not because of the conveience but because water here is scarce, so it's
primary function is to save water. A good thing in the long run.

[Mike Rivers]

In article 6> writes:

> > There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> > water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> > when a tap isn't open.

> In Monterey county,CA it's a requirement for remodels and new construction,
> not because of the conveience but because water here is scarce, so it's
> primary function is to save water. A good thing in the long run.

Also, in Monterey, it doesn't get as cold as it does here in the DC
area, so there isn't as much heat loss to the house there as there
would be here.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article 6> writes:

> > There are circulating hot water systems with a pump that keep hot
> > water flowing through the pipes and send it back to the water heater
> > when a tap isn't open.

> In Monterey county,CA it's a requirement for remodels and new construction,
> not because of the conveience but because water here is scarce, so it's
> primary function is to save water. A good thing in the long run.

Also, in Monterey, it doesn't get as cold as it does here in the DC
area, so there isn't as much heat loss to the house there as there
would be here.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Michael R. Kesti]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
>and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
>here)
>
>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
>water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
>I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
>or bathroom sink.

This question involves sound rather than audio. <g>

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

[Michael R. Kesti]

Mike Rivers wrote:

>To follow this up, here's a question for the fluid mechanics majors,
>and it even involves audio. (I'm starting to think Car Talk Puzzler
>here)
>
>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
>water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
>I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
>or bathroom sink.

This question involves sound rather than audio. <g>

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

[Loren Amelang]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:47:18 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message

>
>> in article , Arny Krueger at
>> wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:
>
>>> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change
>>> length. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly
>>> if stiction is involved.
....
>Pipes are typically mechanically clamped in place inside a building. They go
>through holes in timbers and beams, they are clamped to beams and timbers in
>other places, and they are constrained by appliances and other pipes at
>their ends. If an engineer wanted this whole lashup to exapand and contract
>as silently as possible, there would be minimal sliding contact anywhere,
>and where there was sliding contact, there would either be something
>resilient like rubber or something with very little friction like teflon.

In most any plumbing department you can buy pipe insulators - several
parallel plastic washers (polypropylene?) linked together at their
inner diameter to maintain their spacing, and split along one side to
allow them to snap around the pipe. At one end is a larger, stronger
washer, which you hammer on to drive the insulator along the pipe into
an oversized hole through any support member the pipe must cross.
Wonderful little things. Not only do they provide total silence during
temperature changes, they also reduce heat loss to the framing. Kind
of hard to retrofit, though...

Loren

[Loren Amelang]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:47:18 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Carlos Alden" > wrote in message

>
>> in article , Arny Krueger at
>> wrote on 11/19/04 8:43 AM:
>
>>> Hot water causes cold pipes to get hot, which makes them change
>>> length. The length changes could cause audible effects, particularly
>>> if stiction is involved.
....
>Pipes are typically mechanically clamped in place inside a building. They go
>through holes in timbers and beams, they are clamped to beams and timbers in
>other places, and they are constrained by appliances and other pipes at
>their ends. If an engineer wanted this whole lashup to exapand and contract
>as silently as possible, there would be minimal sliding contact anywhere,
>and where there was sliding contact, there would either be something
>resilient like rubber or something with very little friction like teflon.

In most any plumbing department you can buy pipe insulators - several
parallel plastic washers (polypropylene?) linked together at their
inner diameter to maintain their spacing, and split along one side to
allow them to snap around the pipe. At one end is a larger, stronger
washer, which you hammer on to drive the insulator along the pipe into
an oversized hole through any support member the pipe must cross.
Wonderful little things. Not only do they provide total silence during
temperature changes, they also reduce heat loss to the framing. Kind
of hard to retrofit, though...

Loren

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> This question involves sound rather than audio. <g>

Is that your final answer?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> This question involves sound rather than audio. <g>

Is that your final answer?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Arny Krueger]

"Loren Amelang" > wrote in message


> In most any plumbing department you can buy pipe insulators - several
> parallel plastic washers (polypropylene?) linked together at their
> inner diameter to maintain their spacing, and split along one side to
> allow them to snap around the pipe. At one end is a larger, stronger
> washer, which you hammer on to drive the insulator along the pipe into
> an oversized hole through any support member the pipe must cross.

I did some searching and found that a few places have them.

> Wonderful little things. Not only do they provide total silence during
> temperature changes, they also reduce heat loss to the framing.

Given that wood itself is a kind of insulator, this is probabaly a marginal
benefit.

> Kind of hard to retrofit, though...

Yes, but I've got two new bathrooms under construction. I'll have to see
what I can do to get them built right.

[Arny Krueger]

"Loren Amelang" > wrote in message


> In most any plumbing department you can buy pipe insulators - several
> parallel plastic washers (polypropylene?) linked together at their
> inner diameter to maintain their spacing, and split along one side to
> allow them to snap around the pipe. At one end is a larger, stronger
> washer, which you hammer on to drive the insulator along the pipe into
> an oversized hole through any support member the pipe must cross.

I did some searching and found that a few places have them.

> Wonderful little things. Not only do they provide total silence during
> temperature changes, they also reduce heat loss to the framing.

Given that wood itself is a kind of insulator, this is probabaly a marginal
benefit.

> Kind of hard to retrofit, though...

Yes, but I've got two new bathrooms under construction. I'll have to see
what I can do to get them built right.

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Arny Krueger"

>Yes, but I've got two new bathrooms under construction. I'll have to see
>what I can do to get them built right.

This is a kind of minimum (scroll down to the first product):

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toiletflanges.html

Brass ring, screwed onto the floor with brass screws (lead anchors in
masonry/concrete). Plain wax ring (no gaskets or neoprene). Solid brass closet
bolts, not plated. With "china caps", installed in correct order.

Better might be a lead "stool stack" (riser) soldered correctly to a "deep"
pattern brass ring, also fastened to the floor with brass screws.

Your plumber will likely scoff. The repairman who comes in some time later will
shake his head and bite his lip if you have a rotted steel flange or broken (at
the thin part near the bolts) PVC flange.

I could say a few other things and would be happy to take this to email. --TP

[Tom Paterson]

>From: "Arny Krueger"

>Yes, but I've got two new bathrooms under construction. I'll have to see
>what I can do to get them built right.

This is a kind of minimum (scroll down to the first product):

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toiletflanges.html

Brass ring, screwed onto the floor with brass screws (lead anchors in
masonry/concrete). Plain wax ring (no gaskets or neoprene). Solid brass closet
bolts, not plated. With "china caps", installed in correct order.

Better might be a lead "stool stack" (riser) soldered correctly to a "deep"
pattern brass ring, also fastened to the floor with brass screws.

Your plumber will likely scoff. The repairman who comes in some time later will
shake his head and bite his lip if you have a rotted steel flange or broken (at
the thin part near the bolts) PVC flange.

I could say a few other things and would be happy to take this to email. --TP

[S O'Neill]

Mike Rivers wrote:


> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.


I gonna guess that the valve heats up and the opening that's producing
the sound changes size and/or shape.

[S O'Neill]

Mike Rivers wrote:


> Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
> I can clearly hear when the hot water gets there. Same in the kitchen
> or bathroom sink.


I gonna guess that the valve heats up and the opening that's producing
the sound changes size and/or shape.

[Tom Paterson]

From S O'Neill:

(Mike Rivers wrote):

>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
>> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
>> I can clearly hear when the hot water >>gets there.

(S. O'N. replied):

>I gonna guess that the valve heats up and the opening that's producing
>the sound changes size and/or shape.

The sound changes before the valve has much of a chance to heat up. Density.

There is enough difference in density of water layers of different temperature
that submarines can (or maybe "could") hide from hunters using sonar-- the
"ping" (sound energy) would deflect at the thermocline, not on the boat's hull.

In plumbing, I have been told of instances where the supplied hot and cold
columns of water do not combine in the mixer valve (tub/shower), even at the
minimum 25- 30psi seen in residential water supplies.
--TP

[Tom Paterson]

From S O'Neill:

(Mike Rivers wrote):

>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
>> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
>> I can clearly hear when the hot water >>gets there.

(S. O'N. replied):

>I gonna guess that the valve heats up and the opening that's producing
>the sound changes size and/or shape.

The sound changes before the valve has much of a chance to heat up. Density.

There is enough difference in density of water layers of different temperature
that submarines can (or maybe "could") hide from hunters using sonar-- the
"ping" (sound energy) would deflect at the thermocline, not on the boat's hull.

In plumbing, I have been told of instances where the supplied hot and cold
columns of water do not combine in the mixer valve (tub/shower), even at the
minimum 25- 30psi seen in residential water supplies.
--TP

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Paul Stamler wrote:

> We're back to boats again.

I want to build my own water heater, to save a little money and also get
better performance.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Paul Stamler wrote:

> We're back to boats again.

I want to build my own water heater, to save a little money and also get
better performance.

--
ha

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I want to build my own water heater, to save a little money and also get
> better performance.

You could mount tube sockets into the top of it and get 100 watts out
of a pair of 6L6s dangling upside down into the water. The water would
take heat away from the toobs and you could use the heated water to
make tea.

Just be careful playing your guitar barefoot on the basement floor
though, unless you have an insulation [sic] transformer.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I want to build my own water heater, to save a little money and also get
> better performance.

You could mount tube sockets into the top of it and get 100 watts out
of a pair of 6L6s dangling upside down into the water. The water would
take heat away from the toobs and you could use the heated water to
make tea.

Just be careful playing your guitar barefoot on the basement floor
though, unless you have an insulation [sic] transformer.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[[email protected]]

:>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
:>> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
:>> I can clearly hear when the hot water >>gets there.

The valve-heating-up explanation is likely part of the answer, but I have
heard the same phenomenon in partially open 1/4 turn ball valves which
don't close up significantly when temp increases.

Another possibility is related to how the noise is generated in the
first place: cavitation at the orifice. Under proper circumstances
when water pressure is released at the edges of a valve opening the
dynamics pull tiny transient near-vacuum bubbles which quickly
collapse with a shock. Add up the tiny "clicks" from these events
and you get the "hiss" of water escaping through a valve.

Note I said near-vacuum. The bubbles actually have a measure of
water vapor in them, according to the vapor pressure of water
at that temperature.

Now as water heats up, its vapor pressure increases. This changes
the absolute pressure of the cavitation bubbles, affecting their
size and energy, affecting the "clicks", affecting the integrated
sound.

A similar effect occurs with a metal teapot on the stove. As the
water heats up the sound changes as increasing vapor pressure of
the heating water changes the characteristics of the transient
bubbles on the kettle bottom which make the racket.

In a valve, the water is literally "boiling" in much the same
way.

Incidently, cavitation is violent enough on a microscopic level
to hammer tiny bits of the valve edges away, eventually
destroying the valve.

Bob (in an alternate life is a water plant operator) Miller

[[email protected]]

:>Why does hot flowing hot water sound different than cold flowing
:>> water? When I start the water running in the shower before I undress,
:>> I can clearly hear when the hot water >>gets there.

The valve-heating-up explanation is likely part of the answer, but I have
heard the same phenomenon in partially open 1/4 turn ball valves which
don't close up significantly when temp increases.

Another possibility is related to how the noise is generated in the
first place: cavitation at the orifice. Under proper circumstances
when water pressure is released at the edges of a valve opening the
dynamics pull tiny transient near-vacuum bubbles which quickly
collapse with a shock. Add up the tiny "clicks" from these events
and you get the "hiss" of water escaping through a valve.

Note I said near-vacuum. The bubbles actually have a measure of
water vapor in them, according to the vapor pressure of water
at that temperature.

Now as water heats up, its vapor pressure increases. This changes
the absolute pressure of the cavitation bubbles, affecting their
size and energy, affecting the "clicks", affecting the integrated
sound.

A similar effect occurs with a metal teapot on the stove. As the
water heats up the sound changes as increasing vapor pressure of
the heating water changes the characteristics of the transient
bubbles on the kettle bottom which make the racket.

In a valve, the water is literally "boiling" in much the same
way.

Incidently, cavitation is violent enough on a microscopic level
to hammer tiny bits of the valve edges away, eventually
destroying the valve.

Bob (in an alternate life is a water plant operator) Miller

[[email protected]]

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On 2004-11-14 said:
writes: Hey, you know that trick! I
>>give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each day while
>flipping a load of wash. 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed.
>The ones I buy seem to have cracked the secret of the car battery
>warranty. As soon as the warranty period is up, you can count on
>them going within a couple of months.
HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to save
the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck where I
used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks. THat
stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
orange liquid coming out of the shower head.




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

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On 2004-11-14 said:
writes: Hey, you know that trick! I
>>give my 17 year old hot water heater a pat each day while
>flipping a load of wash. 17 years on a water heater! I'm impressed.
>The ones I buy seem to have cracked the secret of the car battery
>warranty. As soon as the warranty period is up, you can count on
>them going within a couple of months.
HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to save
the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck where I
used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks. THat
stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see bright
orange liquid coming out of the shower head.




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

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On 2004-11-15 (ScottDorsey) said:
I wrote:
>>HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to
>>save the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck
>>where I used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks.
>>THat stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see
>>bright orange liquid coming out of the shower head.
>And that is why you should do the monthly purge. Or at least every
>six months. It's not that difficult to drain a gallon out of the
>thing into a bucket.
>You can buy heaters with a stainless steel lining, too, rather than
>the cheap glass lining. They last a lot longer, but cost a lot
>more. I just went from a well to city water and I'm seeing a lot
>less crap coming out when I do the monthly purge, but I'm waiting
>to see how that affects the total life.
tHose are better from what I've heard. THe community I lived in for a
number of years was on a municipal well and you'd even get bright
orange liquid coming from the cold water taps. ESpecially when they'd
purged the system with the fire hydrants in my neighborhood. THis was
a suburb and many were advocating we go back to hooking up to the
larger city's water system. THis stuff did serious damage to the
water meters the city installed oto btw.




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



A good captain is one who is hoisting his first drink in a
bar when the storm hits.

[[email protected]]

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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:36:44 GMT
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On 2004-11-15 (ScottDorsey) said:
I wrote:
>>HEy that anode rod that's supposed to do the electrolysis bit to
>>save the tank must actually work with the water you have. BAck
>>where I used to live you were lucky to get ten years on the tanks.
>>THat stuff was nasty. GO down to take a morning shower and see
>>bright orange liquid coming out of the shower head.
>And that is why you should do the monthly purge. Or at least every
>six months. It's not that difficult to drain a gallon out of the
>thing into a bucket.
>You can buy heaters with a stainless steel lining, too, rather than
>the cheap glass lining. They last a lot longer, but cost a lot
>more. I just went from a well to city water and I'm seeing a lot
>less crap coming out when I do the monthly purge, but I'm waiting
>to see how that affects the total life.
tHose are better from what I've heard. THe community I lived in for a
number of years was on a municipal well and you'd even get bright
orange liquid coming from the cold water taps. ESpecially when they'd
purged the system with the fire hydrants in my neighborhood. THis was
a suburb and many were advocating we go back to hooking up to the
larger city's water system. THis stuff did serious damage to the
water meters the city installed oto btw.




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



A good captain is one who is hoisting his first drink in a
bar when the storm hits.