Am I crazy for wanting to build my own speakers?

[Mac Cool]

I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
not sure where to start.

I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.

I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
can be whatever).

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
--
Mac Cool

[George Gleason]

Mac Cool wrote:
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?

www.ebay.com
George

[George Gleason]

Mac Cool wrote:
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?

www.ebay.com
George

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
>and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
>to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
>Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
>book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
>was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
>books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
>not sure where to start.

Start by buying drivers, getting Dickason's Loudspeaker Cookbook. Expect
to build a couple dozen different designs before you get a sense of how you
want things voiced.

Dickason's book gives clean cookbook directions for all of the standard
alignments. If you know the driver parameters, you can figure the sort of
cabinet and the cabinet volume that is appropriate. You can estimate the
general system response using his math. This is by no means enough to get
a sense of how things work and a huge amount of cut and try work is going
to be needed.

>I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
>necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
>for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.

If you don't actually want to learn to design speakers, why not build a
kit? Madisound makes a number of nice kit speakers, where they supply
cabinet plans and drivers.

The problem with doing this is that you basically can't listen to the things
before building them (unless you visit Madisound in Wisconsin). And since
speakers all have huge amounts of coloration, you don't have a sense of
whether the compromises made are the ones you'd like. The Madisound designs
are all good ones, but they are all different and they might not be the ones
for you.

>I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
>feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
>left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
>spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
>good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
>existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
>can be whatever).

If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want speakers
voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing, and that would
mean things much more customized for your taste even than normal.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
>and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
>to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
>Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
>book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
>was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
>books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
>not sure where to start.

Start by buying drivers, getting Dickason's Loudspeaker Cookbook. Expect
to build a couple dozen different designs before you get a sense of how you
want things voiced.

Dickason's book gives clean cookbook directions for all of the standard
alignments. If you know the driver parameters, you can figure the sort of
cabinet and the cabinet volume that is appropriate. You can estimate the
general system response using his math. This is by no means enough to get
a sense of how things work and a huge amount of cut and try work is going
to be needed.

>I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
>necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
>for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.

If you don't actually want to learn to design speakers, why not build a
kit? Madisound makes a number of nice kit speakers, where they supply
cabinet plans and drivers.

The problem with doing this is that you basically can't listen to the things
before building them (unless you visit Madisound in Wisconsin). And since
speakers all have huge amounts of coloration, you don't have a sense of
whether the compromises made are the ones you'd like. The Madisound designs
are all good ones, but they are all different and they might not be the ones
for you.

>I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
>feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
>left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
>spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
>good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
>existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
>can be whatever).

If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want speakers
voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing, and that would
mean things much more customized for your taste even than normal.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[normanstrong]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter,
midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be
easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the
only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the
book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker
building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book
so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all
the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will
settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.

You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible about this. You can
buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need big and
floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and you will get more
speaker than you're likely to get building it yourself.

Norm Strong

[normanstrong]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter,
midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be
easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the
only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the
book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker
building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book
so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all
the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will
settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.

You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible about this. You can
buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need big and
floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and you will get more
speaker than you're likely to get building it yourself.

Norm Strong

[Paul Stamler]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.

Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent balance
between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication, rather more so
IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review are, I think,
overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks at Madisound will
design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.

Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent balance
between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication, rather more so
IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review are, I think,
overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks at Madisound will
design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.

Peace,
Paul

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

> Start by buying drivers, getting Dickason's Loudspeaker Cookbook.
> Expect to build a couple dozen different designs before you get a
> sense of how you want things voiced.
>
> Dickason's book gives clean cookbook directions for all of the
> standard alignments. If you know the driver parameters, you can
> figure the sort of cabinet and the cabinet volume that is
> appropriate. You can estimate the general system response using his
> math. This is by no means enough to get a sense of how things work
> and a huge amount of cut and try work is going to be needed.

I think it is a case of I don't know what I don't know. I know there are
formulas for figuring out the box size and I know that speakers sound
differently. Listening to speakers at an audio store I hear big
differences between speaker pairs. Usually many of them sound good, even
if I do like one pair more than another. It would seem like there would
be a way to tune a speaker after building the boxes, without having to
start all over.

I don't know how you calculate the box size for 2 way or 3 way speakers.
Do you just add up the individual calculation or is it more complex?

> If you don't actually want to learn to design speakers, why not build
> a kit? Madisound makes a number of nice kit speakers, where they
> supply cabinet plans and drivers.

I considered building a kit but they are priced well outside my budget.
Here is an example of what I'm looking for:
http://www.madisound.com/eton11_2.html but they are $1K+/pair. I could
buy floor speakers for less, probably not as good quality, but the
difference may be lost on me anyway.

> If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want
> speakers voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing,
> and that would mean things much more customized for your taste even
> than normal. --scott

Per the hearing loss, I actually demphasize the midrange and emphasize
the higher and lower frequencies. Exggerating the sounds I cannot hear
only 'muddies' the music more. Of course my experience is limited to
fairly lowend equipment.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

> Start by buying drivers, getting Dickason's Loudspeaker Cookbook.
> Expect to build a couple dozen different designs before you get a
> sense of how you want things voiced.
>
> Dickason's book gives clean cookbook directions for all of the
> standard alignments. If you know the driver parameters, you can
> figure the sort of cabinet and the cabinet volume that is
> appropriate. You can estimate the general system response using his
> math. This is by no means enough to get a sense of how things work
> and a huge amount of cut and try work is going to be needed.

I think it is a case of I don't know what I don't know. I know there are
formulas for figuring out the box size and I know that speakers sound
differently. Listening to speakers at an audio store I hear big
differences between speaker pairs. Usually many of them sound good, even
if I do like one pair more than another. It would seem like there would
be a way to tune a speaker after building the boxes, without having to
start all over.

I don't know how you calculate the box size for 2 way or 3 way speakers.
Do you just add up the individual calculation or is it more complex?

> If you don't actually want to learn to design speakers, why not build
> a kit? Madisound makes a number of nice kit speakers, where they
> supply cabinet plans and drivers.

I considered building a kit but they are priced well outside my budget.
Here is an example of what I'm looking for:
http://www.madisound.com/eton11_2.html but they are $1K+/pair. I could
buy floor speakers for less, probably not as good quality, but the
difference may be lost on me anyway.

> If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want
> speakers voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing,
> and that would mean things much more customized for your taste even
> than normal. --scott

Per the hearing loss, I actually demphasize the midrange and emphasize
the higher and lower frequencies. Exggerating the sounds I cannot hear
only 'muddies' the music more. Of course my experience is limited to
fairly lowend equipment.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

normanstrong:

> You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible about this. You can
> buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need big and
> floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and you will get more
> speaker than you're likely to get building it yourself.

I'll look around. I haven't found any floor speakers under $700 that I
really liked. There is definitely a difference between shelf speakers and
floor speakers and I like the floor speakers better. The floor speakers
have 'bigger' sound, that's the best I can describe it.

I have seen pictures of a medium sized speaker that has two woofers,
over/under and a tweeter in the middle. The design seems popular online
but I haven't seen any like that locally. Maybe I'm going to the wrong
shops. I'm wondering how those sound compared to floor speakers.
Like these: http://www.madisound.com/froymk3.html
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

normanstrong:

> You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible about this. You can
> buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need big and
> floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and you will get more
> speaker than you're likely to get building it yourself.

I'll look around. I haven't found any floor speakers under $700 that I
really liked. There is definitely a difference between shelf speakers and
floor speakers and I like the floor speakers better. The floor speakers
have 'bigger' sound, that's the best I can describe it.

I have seen pictures of a medium sized speaker that has two woofers,
over/under and a tweeter in the middle. The design seems popular online
but I haven't seen any like that locally. Maybe I'm going to the wrong
shops. I'm wondering how those sound compared to floor speakers.
Like these: http://www.madisound.com/froymk3.html
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Paul Stamler:

> Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent
> balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication,
> rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review
> are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks
> at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.

That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes
& Noble.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Paul Stamler:

> Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent
> balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication,
> rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review
> are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks
> at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.

That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes
& Noble.
--
Mac Cool

[Steven Sena]

Yes...

--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
> --
> Mac Cool

[Steven Sena]

Yes...

--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
> --
> Mac Cool

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: normanstrong:
:
: > You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible
about this. You can
: > buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need
big and
: > floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and
you will get more
: > speaker than you're likely to get building it
yourself.
:
: I'll look around. I haven't found any floor speakers
under $700 that I
: really liked. There is definitely a difference
between shelf speakers and
: floor speakers and I like the floor speakers better.
The floor speakers
: have 'bigger' sound, that's the best I can describe
it.
:
: I have seen pictures of a medium sized speaker that
has two woofers,
: over/under and a tweeter in the middle. The design
seems popular online
: but I haven't seen any like that locally. Maybe I'm
going to the wrong
: shops. I'm wondering how those sound compared to
floor speakers.
: Like these: http://www.madisound.com/froymk3.html
: --
: Mac Cool

Mack:

I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you can
do it, but if you are doing it to save money and not
just building up a kit, you will be disappointed. If
you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with speakers
no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
builder?

Phil
www.philsaudio.com

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: normanstrong:
:
: > You're not crazy, but you're not being sensible
about this. You can
: > buy excellent speakers for $200/pr. If you need
big and
: > floorstanding, you can still stay under $200, and
you will get more
: > speaker than you're likely to get building it
yourself.
:
: I'll look around. I haven't found any floor speakers
under $700 that I
: really liked. There is definitely a difference
between shelf speakers and
: floor speakers and I like the floor speakers better.
The floor speakers
: have 'bigger' sound, that's the best I can describe
it.
:
: I have seen pictures of a medium sized speaker that
has two woofers,
: over/under and a tweeter in the middle. The design
seems popular online
: but I haven't seen any like that locally. Maybe I'm
going to the wrong
: shops. I'm wondering how those sound compared to
floor speakers.
: Like these: http://www.madisound.com/froymk3.html
: --
: Mac Cool

Mack:

I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you can
do it, but if you are doing it to save money and not
just building up a kit, you will be disappointed. If
you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with speakers
no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
builder?

Phil
www.philsaudio.com

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you can
> do it, but if you are doing it to save money and not
> just building up a kit, you will be disappointed. If
> you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
> inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with speakers
> no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
> building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
> yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
> builder?

The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.

Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
sound great.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you can
> do it, but if you are doing it to save money and not
> just building up a kit, you will be disappointed. If
> you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
> inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with speakers
> no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
> building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
> yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
> builder?

The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.

Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
sound great.
--
Mac Cool

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error.

I read an interview with Richard Heyser wherein he said when he first
thought to mess with speakers he imagined he'd just overwhelm their
problems with physics. Shortly thereafter he came to an understanding
that absent advanced art, physics wouldn't do it.

> Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists?

Of course they are to some extent, but more than that, they are often
people who have learned how to listen.

> Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

Uhhh... no, they do not sound "great", if greatness be accuracy, and
listening to stuff that does sound more accurate can help adjust that
perception.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error.

I read an interview with Richard Heyser wherein he said when he first
thought to mess with speakers he imagined he'd just overwhelm their
problems with physics. Shortly thereafter he came to an understanding
that absent advanced art, physics wouldn't do it.

> Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists?

Of course they are to some extent, but more than that, they are often
people who have learned how to listen.

> Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

Uhhh... no, they do not sound "great", if greatness be accuracy, and
listening to stuff that does sound more accurate can help adjust that
perception.

--
ha

[agent86]

anybody-but-bush wrote:

> It is kind of like
> building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
> yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
> builder?

Therein lies the key.

[agent86]

anybody-but-bush wrote:

> It is kind of like
> building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta ask
> yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
> builder?

Therein lies the key.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>I think it is a case of I don't know what I don't know. I know there are
>formulas for figuring out the box size and I know that speakers sound
>differently. Listening to speakers at an audio store I hear big
>differences between speaker pairs. Usually many of them sound good, even
>if I do like one pair more than another. It would seem like there would
>be a way to tune a speaker after building the boxes, without having to
>start all over.

You can change box volume and venting. You can shrink the box volumes,
anyway. You can fiddle with crossover points. But if you suddenly discover
that you can't stand spitty dome tweeters (and plenty of folks seem happy
with them but they drive me up the wall), and you have a design based around
one, you're going to have to go back.

And yes, there are big differences between commercial designs, which is
where the problems come in. Speakers are so much a personal preference.

>I don't know how you calculate the box size for 2 way or 3 way speakers.
>Do you just add up the individual calculation or is it more complex?

On a two-way system, the tweeter is most often a sealed box itself, and
the box equations only relate to the woofer. So half of the math has been
done for you. In a three-way system where you have the woofer and the
midrange driver sharing a box, they interact with one another. And that
is where you want the fudge factors in the Dickason book.

>> If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want
>> speakers voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing,
>> and that would mean things much more customized for your taste even
>> than normal. --scott
>
>Per the hearing loss, I actually demphasize the midrange and emphasize
>the higher and lower frequencies. Exggerating the sounds I cannot hear
>only 'muddies' the music more. Of course my experience is limited to
>fairly lowend equipment.

So, ever listened to a single full-range 8" driver? It'll cost you ten
bucks to buy one from Quam, and you can play with different cabinets.
You won't have much top or bottom extension, but it might be an inexpensive
way to start, if your goal is to have fun and learn about speaker design.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>I think it is a case of I don't know what I don't know. I know there are
>formulas for figuring out the box size and I know that speakers sound
>differently. Listening to speakers at an audio store I hear big
>differences between speaker pairs. Usually many of them sound good, even
>if I do like one pair more than another. It would seem like there would
>be a way to tune a speaker after building the boxes, without having to
>start all over.

You can change box volume and venting. You can shrink the box volumes,
anyway. You can fiddle with crossover points. But if you suddenly discover
that you can't stand spitty dome tweeters (and plenty of folks seem happy
with them but they drive me up the wall), and you have a design based around
one, you're going to have to go back.

And yes, there are big differences between commercial designs, which is
where the problems come in. Speakers are so much a personal preference.

>I don't know how you calculate the box size for 2 way or 3 way speakers.
>Do you just add up the individual calculation or is it more complex?

On a two-way system, the tweeter is most often a sealed box itself, and
the box equations only relate to the woofer. So half of the math has been
done for you. In a three-way system where you have the woofer and the
midrange driver sharing a box, they interact with one another. And that
is where you want the fudge factors in the Dickason book.

>> If you have a hearing problem, it would seem to me that you want
>> speakers voiced to exaggerate the sounds you have trouble hearing,
>> and that would mean things much more customized for your taste even
>> than normal. --scott
>
>Per the hearing loss, I actually demphasize the midrange and emphasize
>the higher and lower frequencies. Exggerating the sounds I cannot hear
>only 'muddies' the music more. Of course my experience is limited to
>fairly lowend equipment.

So, ever listened to a single full-range 8" driver? It'll cost you ten
bucks to buy one from Quam, and you can play with different cabinets.
You won't have much top or bottom extension, but it might be an inexpensive
way to start, if your goal is to have fun and learn about speaker design.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Eric Desrochers]

Speakers building is a great hobby. It combines several different kind
of knowledge/habilities : Mathematics, electrical/electronic, wood
working... you also need a good ear and some musical taste too! To the
beginner, this is certainly easier to build decent loudspeakers than to
build say, a decent power amplifier.

I'd second the recommandation on the Dickason book. It's a necessity.

However, you will find that your 200$ budget is limiting. For just
about double you'd have considerably better quality and choices. I
designed a reference quality home speaker system for about a grand in
drivers alone, which is not exactly a fortune, but of course remains
five time more than your projected budget).

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Eric Desrochers]

Speakers building is a great hobby. It combines several different kind
of knowledge/habilities : Mathematics, electrical/electronic, wood
working... you also need a good ear and some musical taste too! To the
beginner, this is certainly easier to build decent loudspeakers than to
build say, a decent power amplifier.

I'd second the recommandation on the Dickason book. It's a necessity.

However, you will find that your 200$ budget is limiting. For just
about double you'd have considerably better quality and choices. I
designed a reference quality home speaker system for about a grand in
drivers alone, which is not exactly a fortune, but of course remains
five time more than your projected budget).

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
>boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
>years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
>before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.

You haven't actually built a boat, have you?

>Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
>speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
>sound great.

Perhaps your definition of "sounding great" is different than mine.

If you find car stereo speakers you like, buy them and put them in a box.
Don't make me listen to them, please. But if it makes you happy, go with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
>boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
>years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
>before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.

You haven't actually built a boat, have you?

>Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
>speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
>sound great.

Perhaps your definition of "sounding great" is different than mine.

If you find car stereo speakers you like, buy them and put them in a box.
Don't make me listen to them, please. But if it makes you happy, go with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>Mac Cool wrote:
>
>> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>> trial and error.
>
>I read an interview with Richard Heyser wherein he said when he first
>thought to mess with speakers he imagined he'd just overwhelm their
>problems with physics. Shortly thereafter he came to an understanding
>that absent advanced art, physics wouldn't do it.

But, imagine what it must have been like designing speakers before the
Thiele-Small theory! It's really fascinating to read some of the old
Altec application notes from the days when there was only a rather vague
grip on the whole device physics... they have tables and tables of
empirical fudge factors.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>Mac Cool wrote:
>
>> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>> trial and error.
>
>I read an interview with Richard Heyser wherein he said when he first
>thought to mess with speakers he imagined he'd just overwhelm their
>problems with physics. Shortly thereafter he came to an understanding
>that absent advanced art, physics wouldn't do it.

But, imagine what it must have been like designing speakers before the
Thiele-Small theory! It's really fascinating to read some of the old
Altec application notes from the days when there was only a rather vague
grip on the whole device physics... they have tables and tables of
empirical fudge factors.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[agent86]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

Well, some of them sound great.

It's not trial & error (unless you make it that way). But specs can only
tell you so much. The first speakers you build will undoubtedly make
sound. So that's a start, at least. They might even sound pretty good (if
you get hold of a good design & are meticulous in your workmanship. But
it's very doubtful that they will sound exactly like you expected them to
(that's the trial & error part).

But it sounds like you really REALLY want to make your own speakers. So I
say "Have at it". Worst thing that can happen is you learn something & end
up with an extra set of speakers for your work room. Well, actually the
worst thing is you might cut off a finger or two, but we're hoping you'll
be more careful than that. In any event, what you learn about speakers
will probably be worth your time & money.

[agent86]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

Well, some of them sound great.

It's not trial & error (unless you make it that way). But specs can only
tell you so much. The first speakers you build will undoubtedly make
sound. So that's a start, at least. They might even sound pretty good (if
you get hold of a good design & are meticulous in your workmanship. But
it's very doubtful that they will sound exactly like you expected them to
(that's the trial & error part).

But it sounds like you really REALLY want to make your own speakers. So I
say "Have at it". Worst thing that can happen is you learn something & end
up with an extra set of speakers for your work room. Well, actually the
worst thing is you might cut off a finger or two, but we're hoping you'll
be more careful than that. In any event, what you learn about speakers
will probably be worth your time & money.

[Paul Stamler]

Here's a suggestion: Start with something small, rather than a big tower
system. A two-way speaker with a 6-1/2" Vifa woofer and a 1" Vifa tweeter is
a nice start. (They're a lot less spitty than much of the competition.) Get
Madisound to design you a 4th-order (24dB/octave) crossover, buy all the
parts from them and build the thing. Use Dickason's book to choose a box
size -- for a first project, I think do a sealed box, and go for a Qtc of
about .7. Use good wood -- either MDF or Baltic Birch -- and damp the walls
with sidewalk-separator panels. Stuff with Dacron, about 1 lb per cubic foot
of space, which you can buy at a fabric store. Avoid fiberglass, unless you
like to itch.

Once you've built it, listen; it'll probably sound pretty good, maybe a
little bass-shy because it's a 6" in a closed box, but experimenting with
room placement will help. More important, you'll have figured out whether
you think this is a hell of a lot of fun, or a hell of a pain in the ass. If
the latter, well, you've got some decent small speakers for the bedroom, and
you can go buy something for the living room. (Check out Phase Technology
for stuff that's better'n usual bang for the buck.) If the former,
congratulations; you're hooked. Start plotting the towers.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

Here's a suggestion: Start with something small, rather than a big tower
system. A two-way speaker with a 6-1/2" Vifa woofer and a 1" Vifa tweeter is
a nice start. (They're a lot less spitty than much of the competition.) Get
Madisound to design you a 4th-order (24dB/octave) crossover, buy all the
parts from them and build the thing. Use Dickason's book to choose a box
size -- for a first project, I think do a sealed box, and go for a Qtc of
about .7. Use good wood -- either MDF or Baltic Birch -- and damp the walls
with sidewalk-separator panels. Stuff with Dacron, about 1 lb per cubic foot
of space, which you can buy at a fabric store. Avoid fiberglass, unless you
like to itch.

Once you've built it, listen; it'll probably sound pretty good, maybe a
little bass-shy because it's a 6" in a closed box, but experimenting with
room placement will help. More important, you'll have figured out whether
you think this is a hell of a lot of fun, or a hell of a pain in the ass. If
the latter, well, you've got some decent small speakers for the bedroom, and
you can go buy something for the living room. (Check out Phase Technology
for stuff that's better'n usual bang for the buck.) If the former,
congratulations; you're hooked. Start plotting the towers.

Peace,
Paul

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: anybody-but-bush:
:
: > I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you
can
: > do it, but if you are doing it to save money and
not
: > just building up a kit, you will be disappointed.
If
: > you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
: > inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with
speakers
: > no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
: > building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta
ask
: > yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
: > builder?
:
: The difference is that a person can do some research,
decide what kind of
: boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build
it. It might take
: years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have
to build a dozen boats
: before you get one to float; as has been suggested
with speakers.

Floating is equivelent to making noise. Buying plans is
equivelent of building a kit. You want good sound?
That is like building a raceing boat, for racing in a
lake or a defferent one for the ocean etc. You are
probably going to make a lot of mods based on each
excursion into the water.
:
: Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker
building has to be
: trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are
perfectionists? Car
: speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic
covers and they can
: sound great.

Nothing is going to stop you from slapping some drivers
in a box and letting them rip. If you do a good job on
the box it may even float.

Phil Abbate
http://philsaudio.com/enthusiast.htm
: --
: Mac Cool

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: anybody-but-bush:
:
: > I have been building speakers for 30 years. Yes you
can
: > do it, but if you are doing it to save money and
not
: > just building up a kit, you will be disappointed.
If
: > you peruse it for years and have a scientific type
: > inquisitiveness you very well may wind up with
speakers
: > no one can touch at any price. It is kind of like
: > building a boat. Sure you can do it, but you gotta
ask
: > yourself why. Do I want to fish or become a boat
: > builder?
:
: The difference is that a person can do some research,
decide what kind of
: boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build
it. It might take
: years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have
to build a dozen boats
: before you get one to float; as has been suggested
with speakers.

Floating is equivelent to making noise. Buying plans is
equivelent of building a kit. You want good sound?
That is like building a raceing boat, for racing in a
lake or a defferent one for the ocean etc. You are
probably going to make a lot of mods based on each
excursion into the water.
:
: Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker
building has to be
: trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are
perfectionists? Car
: speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic
covers and they can
: sound great.

Nothing is going to stop you from slapping some drivers
in a box and letting them rip. If you do a good job on
the box it may even float.

Phil Abbate
http://philsaudio.com/enthusiast.htm
: --
: Mac Cool

[anybody-but-bush]

Try this link
http://ldsg.snippets.org/idx.php3
Phil Abbate
www. philsaudio.com

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in
message
...
: Here's a suggestion: Start with something small,
rather than a big tower
: system. A two-way speaker with a 6-1/2" Vifa woofer
and a 1" Vifa tweeter is
: a nice start. (They're a lot less spitty than much of
the competition.) Get
: Madisound to design you a 4th-order (24dB/octave)
crossover, buy all the
: parts from them and build the thing. Use Dickason's
book to choose a box
: size -- for a first project, I think do a sealed box,
and go for a Qtc of
: about .7. Use good wood -- either MDF or Baltic
Birch -- and damp the walls
: with sidewalk-separator panels. Stuff with Dacron,
about 1 lb per cubic foot
: of space, which you can buy at a fabric store. Avoid
fiberglass, unless you
: like to itch.
:
: Once you've built it, listen; it'll probably sound
pretty good, maybe a
: little bass-shy because it's a 6" in a closed box,
but experimenting with
: room placement will help. More important, you'll have
figured out whether
: you think this is a hell of a lot of fun, or a hell
of a pain in the ass. If
: the latter, well, you've got some decent small
speakers for the bedroom, and
: you can go buy something for the living room. (Check
out Phase Technology
: for stuff that's better'n usual bang for the buck.)
If the former,
: congratulations; you're hooked. Start plotting the
towers.
:
: Peace,
: Paul
:
:

[anybody-but-bush]

Try this link
http://ldsg.snippets.org/idx.php3
Phil Abbate
www. philsaudio.com

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in
message
...
: Here's a suggestion: Start with something small,
rather than a big tower
: system. A two-way speaker with a 6-1/2" Vifa woofer
and a 1" Vifa tweeter is
: a nice start. (They're a lot less spitty than much of
the competition.) Get
: Madisound to design you a 4th-order (24dB/octave)
crossover, buy all the
: parts from them and build the thing. Use Dickason's
book to choose a box
: size -- for a first project, I think do a sealed box,
and go for a Qtc of
: about .7. Use good wood -- either MDF or Baltic
Birch -- and damp the walls
: with sidewalk-separator panels. Stuff with Dacron,
about 1 lb per cubic foot
: of space, which you can buy at a fabric store. Avoid
fiberglass, unless you
: like to itch.
:
: Once you've built it, listen; it'll probably sound
pretty good, maybe a
: little bass-shy because it's a 6" in a closed box,
but experimenting with
: room placement will help. More important, you'll have
figured out whether
: you think this is a hell of a lot of fun, or a hell
of a pain in the ass. If
: the latter, well, you've got some decent small
speakers for the bedroom, and
: you can go buy something for the living room. (Check
out Phase Technology
: for stuff that's better'n usual bang for the buck.)
If the former,
: congratulations; you're hooked. Start plotting the
towers.
:
: Peace,
: Paul
:
:

[U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:52:07 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>
> The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
> boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
> years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
> before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.
>
> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

You've clearly never built a boat. :)

I build furniture. Generally speaking, the raw materials are much less
than the cost of, say, a Mission-style table.

I spent around $300 for a table for my wife that would retail for a
couple thousand. But my labor is free, right? ;)

People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it takes
to build a boat.

But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
tend to think high end designs.

This doesn't make sense for mass produced designs, but for a one-off, it
makes perfect sense.

Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets from
the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good drivers
cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of the people
who build speakers do so because they believe they can do better than
commercially available designs.

[U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:52:07 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:
>
>
> The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
> boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
> years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
> before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.
>
> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

You've clearly never built a boat. :)

I build furniture. Generally speaking, the raw materials are much less
than the cost of, say, a Mission-style table.

I spent around $300 for a table for my wife that would retail for a
couple thousand. But my labor is free, right? ;)

People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it takes
to build a boat.

But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
tend to think high end designs.

This doesn't make sense for mass produced designs, but for a one-off, it
makes perfect sense.

Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets from
the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good drivers
cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of the people
who build speakers do so because they believe they can do better than
commercially available designs.

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:13:17 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
> wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:52:07 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:
>>
>>
>> The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
>> boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
>> years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
>> before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
>> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
>> sound great.
>
>You've clearly never built a boat. :)
>
>I build furniture. Generally speaking, the raw materials are much less
>than the cost of, say, a Mission-style table.
>
>I spent around $300 for a table for my wife that would retail for a
>couple thousand. But my labor is free, right? ;)
>
>People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
>standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
>relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it takes
>to build a boat.
>
>But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
>over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
>tend to think high end designs.
>
>This doesn't make sense for mass produced designs, but for a one-off, it
>makes perfect sense.
>
>Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets from
>the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good drivers
>cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of the people
>who build speakers do so because they believe they can do better than
>commercially available designs.
>

I'm assuming that you mean they can design aesthetically more
pleasing-looking cabinets. To make better speakers doesn't take a wood
craftsman, but a design lab, a great engineer, anechoic chamber, many,
many prototypes - need I go on?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:13:17 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
> wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:52:07 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:
>>
>>
>> The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what kind of
>> boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It might take
>> years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to build a dozen boats
>> before you get one to float; as has been suggested with speakers.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just stubborn but I don't see why speaker building has to be
>> trial and error. Is it just that speaker builders are perfectionists? Car
>> speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
>> sound great.
>
>You've clearly never built a boat. :)
>
>I build furniture. Generally speaking, the raw materials are much less
>than the cost of, say, a Mission-style table.
>
>I spent around $300 for a table for my wife that would retail for a
>couple thousand. But my labor is free, right? ;)
>
>People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
>standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
>relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it takes
>to build a boat.
>
>But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
>over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
>tend to think high end designs.
>
>This doesn't make sense for mass produced designs, but for a one-off, it
>makes perfect sense.
>
>Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets from
>the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good drivers
>cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of the people
>who build speakers do so because they believe they can do better than
>commercially available designs.
>

I'm assuming that you mean they can design aesthetically more
pleasing-looking cabinets. To make better speakers doesn't take a wood
craftsman, but a design lab, a great engineer, anechoic chamber, many,
many prototypes - need I go on?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Karl Winkler]

Mac Cool > wrote in message >...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Having built a couple pairs of speakers for the same reason (I
couldn't find anything I liked at a resonable price), I have to say it
is right on the border of being more trouble than it's worth. However,
I'm pretty happy with what I ended up with, although now that my
system is in a larger room, I think the speakers are bass-shy. I went
with sealed enclosures ("acoustic suspension") because I'm not a fan
of the LF delay (phase shift) caused by ported boxes. However, unless
you are looking at large LF drivers (10" or 12") and thus a 3-way
design, sealed boxes often don't provide the real low end support that
ported boxes do. My favorite speakers were Vandersteen 2ce, but they
were too big for the place where I lived for the last 5 years... Now I
wish I had them back... I also went with a 2-way design, using a 7"
driver for the bass, and a 1" silk dome for the highs. The tradeoffs
between 2-way and 3-way gave me headaches for months before I finally
made my decision. Here's how I saw it:

2-way
Simpler crossover design by a long shot!
Lower cost (usually)
Easier to match two drivers than three
Easier to make the front baffle (only two holes)
Often better imaging due to only one crossover point/phase shift

3-way
Better bass because larger driver can be used for woofer (larger
woofers don't go as high without lots of distortion!)
Possibility of better midrange, esp. for voice due to having the full
vocal range on one driver

I used Weem's book, and got the latest revision at the time (from 1991
I think). But agreed: it's pretty technical, and the projects he
suggests weren't in line with what I wanted.

Someone else pointed out Ebay, but I'd suggest looking around at used
shops instead because it's always best to hear the exact speakers you
are buying. In the DC area, High Tech Exchange was a great resource.
I'd guess there are similar shops in most larger cities. Here in
Albuquerque, it's Hudson's Audio.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

[Karl Winkler]

Mac Cool > wrote in message >...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
> and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
> to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
> Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
> book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
> was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
> books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
> not sure where to start.
>
> I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
> necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
> for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
> I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
> feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
> left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
> spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
> good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
> existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
> can be whatever).
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Having built a couple pairs of speakers for the same reason (I
couldn't find anything I liked at a resonable price), I have to say it
is right on the border of being more trouble than it's worth. However,
I'm pretty happy with what I ended up with, although now that my
system is in a larger room, I think the speakers are bass-shy. I went
with sealed enclosures ("acoustic suspension") because I'm not a fan
of the LF delay (phase shift) caused by ported boxes. However, unless
you are looking at large LF drivers (10" or 12") and thus a 3-way
design, sealed boxes often don't provide the real low end support that
ported boxes do. My favorite speakers were Vandersteen 2ce, but they
were too big for the place where I lived for the last 5 years... Now I
wish I had them back... I also went with a 2-way design, using a 7"
driver for the bass, and a 1" silk dome for the highs. The tradeoffs
between 2-way and 3-way gave me headaches for months before I finally
made my decision. Here's how I saw it:

2-way
Simpler crossover design by a long shot!
Lower cost (usually)
Easier to match two drivers than three
Easier to make the front baffle (only two holes)
Often better imaging due to only one crossover point/phase shift

3-way
Better bass because larger driver can be used for woofer (larger
woofers don't go as high without lots of distortion!)
Possibility of better midrange, esp. for voice due to having the full
vocal range on one driver

I used Weem's book, and got the latest revision at the time (from 1991
I think). But agreed: it's pretty technical, and the projects he
suggests weren't in line with what I wanted.

Someone else pointed out Ebay, but I'd suggest looking around at used
shops instead because it's always best to hear the exact speakers you
are buying. In the DC area, High Tech Exchange was a great resource.
I'd guess there are similar shops in most larger cities. Here in
Albuquerque, it's Hudson's Audio.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>I'm assuming that you mean they can design aesthetically more
>pleasing-looking cabinets. To make better speakers doesn't take a wood
>craftsman, but a design lab, a great engineer, anechoic chamber, many,
>many prototypes - need I go on?

And this, in short, is how the NRC has managed to phenomenally boost the
Canadian loudspeaker industry with comparatively low cost. They provide
all of these things (except the many prototypes) to manufacturers for cheap.

While in the US, you need JBL's resources in order to get accurate polar
plots at low frequencies. This makes it hard for small manufacturers to
compete. Let alone homebrewers.
--scott
(who has built a few speakers, mostly by wholesale lifting of
commercial designs that he has liked the sound of)
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce > wrote:
>
>I'm assuming that you mean they can design aesthetically more
>pleasing-looking cabinets. To make better speakers doesn't take a wood
>craftsman, but a design lab, a great engineer, anechoic chamber, many,
>many prototypes - need I go on?

And this, in short, is how the NRC has managed to phenomenally boost the
Canadian loudspeaker industry with comparatively low cost. They provide
all of these things (except the many prototypes) to manufacturers for cheap.

While in the US, you need JBL's resources in order to get accurate polar
plots at low frequencies. This makes it hard for small manufacturers to
compete. Let alone homebrewers.
--scott
(who has built a few speakers, mostly by wholesale lifting of
commercial designs that he has liked the sound of)
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Karl Winkler wrote:

> Having built a couple pairs of speakers for the same reason (I
> couldn't find anything I liked at a resonable price), I have to say it
> is right on the border of being more trouble than it's worth.

I'm thinking of building my own white van. That way I could save a lot
on speakers.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Karl Winkler wrote:

> Having built a couple pairs of speakers for the same reason (I
> couldn't find anything I liked at a resonable price), I have to say it
> is right on the border of being more trouble than it's worth.

I'm thinking of building my own white van. That way I could save a lot
on speakers.

--
ha

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

> While in the US, you need JBL's resources in order to get accurate polar
> plots at low frequencies. This makes it hard for small manufacturers to
> compete. Let alone homebrewers.
> --scott
> (who has built a few speakers, mostly by wholesale lifting of
> commercial designs that he has liked the sound of)

If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply and
some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to get
the balance right. It's hard, but doable. What's much harder is to build
multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all
the resources you can muster and then some.

Peace,
Paul (found out the hard way)

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

> While in the US, you need JBL's resources in order to get accurate polar
> plots at low frequencies. This makes it hard for small manufacturers to
> compete. Let alone homebrewers.
> --scott
> (who has built a few speakers, mostly by wholesale lifting of
> commercial designs that he has liked the sound of)

If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply and
some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to get
the balance right. It's hard, but doable. What's much harder is to build
multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all
the resources you can muster and then some.

Peace,
Paul (found out the hard way)

[L David Matheny]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message ...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, <snip>
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
If you haven't already, do some reading on sites like these:
http://www.audioxpress.com/
http://www.huennebeck-online.de/tmp/DIYaudio.html
http://icc.skku.ac.kr/~won/electro/audiospeakers.html

[L David Matheny]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message ...
> I would like to build a set of floor speakers, <snip>
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
If you haven't already, do some reading on sites like these:
http://www.audioxpress.com/
http://www.huennebeck-online.de/tmp/DIYaudio.html
http://icc.skku.ac.kr/~won/electro/audiospeakers.html

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

>>The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what
>>kind of boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It
>>might take years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to
>>build a dozen boats before you get one to float; as has been
>>suggested with speakers.
>
> You haven't actually built a boat, have you?

How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that floats,
don't blame the boat.

I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I built
would float.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

>>The difference is that a person can do some research, decide what
>>kind of boat they want to build, buy or draw plans and build it. It
>>might take years, it might take a lifetime, but you don't have to
>>build a dozen boats before you get one to float; as has been
>>suggested with speakers.
>
> You haven't actually built a boat, have you?

How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that floats,
don't blame the boat.

I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I built
would float.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> Floating is equivelent to making noise.

Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think comparing boats to
speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is equivalent to noise,
is more indicative of your personality than any commonality between boats
and speakers. I'm not being negative about your personality, but it's
different strokes for different folks.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> Floating is equivelent to making noise.

Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think comparing boats to
speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is equivalent to noise,
is more indicative of your personality than any commonality between boats
and speakers. I'm not being negative about your personality, but it's
different strokes for different folks.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

> So, ever listened to a single full-range 8" driver? It'll cost you
> ten bucks to buy one from Quam, and you can play with different
> cabinets. You won't have much top or bottom extension, but it might
> be an inexpensive way to start, if your goal is to have fun and learn
> about speaker design.

Thanks Scott, I appreciate the help.

--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Scott Dorsey:

> So, ever listened to a single full-range 8" driver? It'll cost you
> ten bucks to buy one from Quam, and you can play with different
> cabinets. You won't have much top or bottom extension, but it might
> be an inexpensive way to start, if your goal is to have fun and learn
> about speaker design.

Thanks Scott, I appreciate the help.

--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Paul Stamler:

> Here's a suggestion: Start with something small

Thanks, it sounds like good advice and I'm going to follow it. I can
always use some smaller speakers for the bedroom.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Paul Stamler:

> Here's a suggestion: Start with something small

Thanks, it sounds like good advice and I'm going to follow it. I can
always use some smaller speakers for the bedroom.
--
Mac Cool

[Logan Shaw]

Mac Cool wrote:
> How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that floats,
> don't blame the boat.
>
> I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I built
> would float.

Ah yes, but would it capsize when placed in a real-world body of water?
Most boats don't float very well after they've capsized. (There are
some notable exceptions, one of which I am personally grateful for.
Thankfully the lake was deep enough at that point so that when the mast
rotated 180 degrees -- directly DOWN into the water -- it did not get
stuck on anything, and we were able to rotate it another 180 degrees
back to (regular) vertical.)

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Mac Cool wrote:
> How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that floats,
> don't blame the boat.
>
> I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I built
> would float.

Ah yes, but would it capsize when placed in a real-world body of water?
Most boats don't float very well after they've capsized. (There are
some notable exceptions, one of which I am personally grateful for.
Thankfully the lake was deep enough at that point so that when the mast
rotated 180 degrees -- directly DOWN into the water -- it did not get
stuck on anything, and we were able to rotate it another 180 degrees
back to (regular) vertical.)

- Logan

[anybody-but-bush]

You are misunderstanding my analogy. If anyone can make
a boat that floats then anyone can make a speaker that
makes some noise. If you are looking for a good
sounding speaker, accurate speaker, reference monitor,
that speaker needs to do more than just float, it needs
to do a lot of stuff just right and "anybody" can not
do that right out of the gate, it will take experience
and good tools.

If you want to listen to music buy speakers if you want
to be a speaker builder then plan on a long uphill
struggle and spending some dough on tools and parts..

Philip Abbate
LspCAD Dealer\
( that is Loudspeaker Computer Aided Design)
www.philsaudio.com/lspcad.htm

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: anybody-but-bush:
:
: > Floating is equivelent to making noise.
:
: Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think
comparing boats to
: speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is
equivalent to noise,
: is more indicative of your personality than any
commonality between boats
: and speakers. I'm not being negative about your
personality, but it's
: different strokes for different folks.
: --
: Mac Cool

[anybody-but-bush]

You are misunderstanding my analogy. If anyone can make
a boat that floats then anyone can make a speaker that
makes some noise. If you are looking for a good
sounding speaker, accurate speaker, reference monitor,
that speaker needs to do more than just float, it needs
to do a lot of stuff just right and "anybody" can not
do that right out of the gate, it will take experience
and good tools.

If you want to listen to music buy speakers if you want
to be a speaker builder then plan on a long uphill
struggle and spending some dough on tools and parts..

Philip Abbate
LspCAD Dealer\
( that is Loudspeaker Computer Aided Design)
www.philsaudio.com/lspcad.htm

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
: anybody-but-bush:
:
: > Floating is equivelent to making noise.
:
: Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think
comparing boats to
: speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is
equivalent to noise,
: is more indicative of your personality than any
commonality between boats
: and speakers. I'm not being negative about your
personality, but it's
: different strokes for different folks.
: --
: Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles:

> You've clearly never built a boat. :)

I'm betting you haven't either.

> I build furniture.

I build furniture.

> People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
> standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
> relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it
> takes to build a boat.
>
> But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
> over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
> tend to think high end designs.

Here you are clearly wrong, there are many, many people who build
servicable boats. There are discussion groups, books and websites
dedicated to small serviceable boats and I would bet that only a
minority of home boat builders build high end boats.

Why do you build furniture? Do you do it to save money or is it because
you love creating something with your hands, having control over the
quality of the finished product within your ability.

> Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets
> from the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good
> drivers cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of
> the people who build speakers do so because they believe they can do
> better than commercially available designs.

Maybe some of them can. The best speaker in the world is wasted on an
uneducated ear. However good at furniture building you are, it is
doubtful that your first piece was perfect, or your second, or your
third...
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles:

> You've clearly never built a boat. :)

I'm betting you haven't either.

> I build furniture.

I build furniture.

> People who build boats CAN (and occasionally do) build "servicable
> standard" boats. But WHY? You can buy a "servicable standard boat"
> relatively inexpensively, especially in comparison to the hours it
> takes to build a boat.
>
> But the labor differential to make a Top Notch boat isn't that great
> over and above making a Good Enough boat, so boat building hobbiests
> tend to think high end designs.

Here you are clearly wrong, there are many, many people who build
servicable boats. There are discussion groups, books and websites
dedicated to small serviceable boats and I would bet that only a
minority of home boat builders build high end boats.

Why do you build furniture? Do you do it to save money or is it because
you love creating something with your hands, having control over the
quality of the finished product within your ability.

> Same song with speakers. While I have built "Good Enough" cabinets
> from the Theile-Small parameters (and I would again if I found good
> drivers cheap. I always have spare MDF and plywood around) most of
> the people who build speakers do so because they believe they can do
> better than commercially available designs.

Maybe some of them can. The best speaker in the world is wasted on an
uneducated ear. However good at furniture building you are, it is
doubtful that your first piece was perfect, or your second, or your
third...
--
Mac Cool

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> > Floating is equivelent to making noise.

> Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think comparing boats to
> speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is equivalent to noise,
> is more indicative of your personality than any commonality between boats
> and speakers. I'm not being negative about your personality, but it's
> different strokes for different folks.

He means it doesn't take much to build a speaker that will output some
kind of sound, as it doesn't take much to build a boat that floats,
either. But with higher performance from either device comes necessary
investment in components, design, labor, testing, labor, testing, labor,
etcd.

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> > Floating is equivelent to making noise.

> Having spent a good bit of time in a boat I think comparing boats to
> speakers is a bad analogy. If you think floating is equivalent to noise,
> is more indicative of your personality than any commonality between boats
> and speakers. I'm not being negative about your personality, but it's
> different strokes for different folks.

He means it doesn't take much to build a speaker that will output some
kind of sound, as it doesn't take much to build a boat that floats,
either. But with higher performance from either device comes necessary
investment in components, design, labor, testing, labor, testing, labor,
etcd.

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> You are misunderstanding my analogy. If anyone can make
> a boat that floats then anyone can make a speaker that
> makes some noise.

I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the
tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or
racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a
source of pride for the builder.

What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not
know how they know it.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

anybody-but-bush:

> You are misunderstanding my analogy. If anyone can make
> a boat that floats then anyone can make a speaker that
> makes some noise.

I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the
tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or
racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a
source of pride for the builder.

What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not
know how they know it.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Logan Shaw:

>> How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that
>> floats, don't blame the boat.
>>
>> I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I
>> built would float.
>
> Ah yes, but would it capsize when placed in a real-world body of
> water?

No one can guarantee a boat won't capsize. Boats are designed for the type
of water they will be used in. If a boat is pushed beyond the limits it
was designed for, it will fail.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I don't think boat building is a good analogy
for speaker building.
--
Mac Cool

[Mac Cool]

Logan Shaw:

>> How many boats have you built? If you can't build a boat that
>> floats, don't blame the boat.
>>
>> I have never built a boat, but I guarantee you that the first one I
>> built would float.
>
> Ah yes, but would it capsize when placed in a real-world body of
> water?

No one can guarantee a boat won't capsize. Boats are designed for the type
of water they will be used in. If a boat is pushed beyond the limits it
was designed for, it will fail.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I don't think boat building is a good analogy
for speaker building.
--
Mac Cool

[Tony]

Enough with the "bad analogy". Analogies don't have to be perfect in
every way, but this one was pretty good. Everyone else here "gets it".
If you don't, just move on.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)

[Tony]

Enough with the "bad analogy". Analogies don't have to be perfect in
every way, but this one was pretty good. Everyone else here "gets it".
If you don't, just move on.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)

[TonyP]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...
> If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply
and
> some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
> resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to
get
> the balance right. It's hard, but doable.

And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances, etc.
unless you have measurement facilities.

>What's much harder is to build
> multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all
> the resources you can muster and then some.

Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored
driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar tolerances.

TonyP.

[TonyP]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...
> If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply
and
> some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
> resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to
get
> the balance right. It's hard, but doable.

And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances, etc.
unless you have measurement facilities.

>What's much harder is to build
> multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes all
> the resources you can muster and then some.

Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored
driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar tolerances.

TonyP.

[Pooh Bear]

No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You could
spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover
networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the
cookbook says btw.

It would be a learning experience though.

The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a better
set of speakers than you can make for the same money.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You could
spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover
networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the
cookbook says btw.

It would be a learning experience though.

The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a better
set of speakers than you can make for the same money.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

They can also sound truly awful.

This is a result you have to consider.

Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge
of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot
more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> sound great.

They can also sound truly awful.

This is a result you have to consider.

Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge
of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot
more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Paul Stamler:
>
> > Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent
> > balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication,
> > rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review
> > are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks
> > at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.
>
> That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes
> & Noble.

Does that come out of the $200 ?

Ker-ching !

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mac Cool wrote:

> Paul Stamler:
>
> > Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" strikes an excellent
> > balance between beginner-friendliness and technical sophistication,
> > rather more so IMHO than Weems's. The criticisms in the Amazon review
> > are, I think, overstated. Oh, and for a very reasonable fee the folks
> > at Madisound will design a crossover for whatever drivers you want.
>
> That's two votes for Dickason's book. I'll see if I can find it at Barnes
> & Noble.

Does that come out of the $200 ?

Ker-ching !

Graham

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the
> tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or
> racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a
> source of pride for the builder.

> What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not
> know how they know it.

Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
potential pitfalls. Enjoy.

Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
experience.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Mac Cool wrote:

> I don't misunderstand at all... it is a flawed analogy. Anyone with the
> tools and will can build a quite servicable boat. It may not be a yacht or
> racing boat, it won't be perfect, but it will provide pleasure and be a
> source of pride for the builder.

> What I do understand is that some people know what they know, but do not
> know how they know it.

Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
potential pitfalls. Enjoy.

Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
experience.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Pooh Bear wrote:

> Mac Cool wrote:

> > Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> > sound great.

> They can also sound truly awful.

> This is a result you have to consider.

> Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge
> of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot
> more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in.

But he could go to a junkyard, buy a matched pair of car doors, install
speakers and dig the great sound. Then he could get a trunk lid and a
hood and weld 'em together and have a boat, too!

Resources R Us!

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Pooh Bear wrote:

> Mac Cool wrote:

> > Car speakers are screwed into metal doors with plastic covers and they can
> > sound great.

> They can also sound truly awful.

> This is a result you have to consider.

> Designing good speakers of today's qualities requires an extensive knowledge
> of the physics involved plus a certain amount of 'black art'. There's a lot
> more to it than just a box with a speaker screwed in.

But he could go to a junkyard, buy a matched pair of car doors, install
speakers and dig the great sound. Then he could get a trunk lid and a
hood and weld 'em together and have a boat, too!

Resources R Us!

--
ha

[William Sommerwerck]

My opinion is that, once you've built your own speakers, you'll continually be
trying to upgrade them. In other words, don't expect to remain long-satisfied
with your first pair.

Two other points...

Good drivers and crossover components are not cheap. You can easily spend $200
on them before you get to...

....the wood for the cabinet. Don't skimp. You'll probably want MDF or better.

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

[William Sommerwerck]

My opinion is that, once you've built your own speakers, you'll continually be
trying to upgrade them. In other words, don't expect to remain long-satisfied
with your first pair.

Two other points...

Good drivers and crossover components are not cheap. You can easily spend $200
on them before you get to...

....the wood for the cabinet. Don't skimp. You'll probably want MDF or better.

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

[Paul Stamler]

"TonyP" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
> ...
> > If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply
> and
> > some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
> > resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to
> get
> > the balance right. It's hard, but doable.
>
> And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances,
etc.
> unless you have measurement facilities.

Quite right. But you can, with some good planning, build good speakers
without them. Not fantastic speakers, but good speakers. With measurement
facilities, you can take a big leap upward (pun intended), but without them,
if you take care to follos some good design practices, you can still do
quite well.

> >What's much harder is to build
> > multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes
all
> > the resources you can muster and then some.
>
> Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored
> driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar
tolerances.

Exactly. (Well, almost exactly -- I didn't ignore driver tolerances. That's
the crossover tweaking.) In fact, it's a lot easier to make boxes to close
tolerances than drivers. You can build boxes in a home shop to a tolerance
of, say, 1/16". If the shortest dimension of a speaker box is 6", that's
about 1%, less of course with the longer dimensions. Typical drivers have a
5% or 10% spec tolerance. That's why it's so much easier to produce *one*
good speaker than many. Tweak the crossover L-pad(s) a little, and Bob's
your uncle (especially with a closed-box system, which is somewhat less
sensitive to differences in drivers than a vented box). Build a whole heap
of them and you either have to throw out a lot of drivers or do a lot of
tweaking. Or accept speakers that vary all over the place.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"TonyP" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
> ...
> > If you have decent data on the drivers, which some manufacturers supply
> and
> > some don't, you can build a pair of good speakers without most of those
> > resources. You'll probably need to tweak the L-pads in the crossovers to
> get
> > the balance right. It's hard, but doable.
>
> And you would still have no idea about cabinet reflections, resonances,
etc.
> unless you have measurement facilities.

Quite right. But you can, with some good planning, build good speakers
without them. Not fantastic speakers, but good speakers. With measurement
facilities, you can take a big leap upward (pun intended), but without them,
if you take care to follos some good design practices, you can still do
quite well.

> >What's much harder is to build
> > multiple copies of the speaker, reliably and repeatably. *That* takes
all
> > the resources you can muster and then some.
>
> Your method relies on the manufacturers data, so you have already ignored
> driver tolerances. It's not that hard to build boxes to similar
tolerances.

Exactly. (Well, almost exactly -- I didn't ignore driver tolerances. That's
the crossover tweaking.) In fact, it's a lot easier to make boxes to close
tolerances than drivers. You can build boxes in a home shop to a tolerance
of, say, 1/16". If the shortest dimension of a speaker box is 6", that's
about 1%, less of course with the longer dimensions. Typical drivers have a
5% or 10% spec tolerance. That's why it's so much easier to produce *one*
good speaker than many. Tweak the crossover L-pad(s) a little, and Bob's
your uncle (especially with a closed-box system, which is somewhat less
sensitive to differences in drivers than a vented box). Build a whole heap
of them and you either have to throw out a lot of drivers or do a lot of
tweaking. Or accept speakers that vary all over the place.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You
could
> spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover
> networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the
> cookbook says btw.
>
> It would be a learning experience though.
>
> The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a
better
> set of speakers than you can make for the same money.

For $200? Naah. Here's a breakdown (all prices from Madisound):

Vifa 6.5" woofers: 2 @ $41/ea = $82
Vifa 1" dome tweeters: 2 @ $26/ea = $52
Inductors for crossover: $24
Capacitors for crossover: $30
Resistors for crossover: $2
Connector cups: $4

That's $194, and I'm assuming polypropylene capacitors and a 24dB/octave
crossover. Add a couple of bucks for Zobel networks on the woofer, and $200
for the parts is about right. Then of course there's the wood. But for $200
worth of parts you can build a 6" two-way that beats the absolute crap out
of anything you can buy at that price, *and* learn a lot, *and*, if you're
inclined that way, have a lot of fun. It won't beat a $2000 pair of
monitors, of course not. But if you look at what's out there for $200 these
days, you won't find much decent.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, you're not crazy but you won't achieve a great deal for $200. You
could
> spend a large proportion ( if not all ) of that alone on decent crossover
> networks. Which you also have to design ! And there's more to it than the
> cookbook says btw.
>
> It would be a learning experience though.
>
> The economics of volume manufacturing mean that you'll be able to buy a
better
> set of speakers than you can make for the same money.

For $200? Naah. Here's a breakdown (all prices from Madisound):

Vifa 6.5" woofers: 2 @ $41/ea = $82
Vifa 1" dome tweeters: 2 @ $26/ea = $52
Inductors for crossover: $24
Capacitors for crossover: $30
Resistors for crossover: $2
Connector cups: $4

That's $194, and I'm assuming polypropylene capacitors and a 24dB/octave
crossover. Add a couple of bucks for Zobel networks on the woofer, and $200
for the parts is about right. Then of course there's the wood. But for $200
worth of parts you can build a 6" two-way that beats the absolute crap out
of anything you can buy at that price, *and* learn a lot, *and*, if you're
inclined that way, have a lot of fun. It won't beat a $2000 pair of
monitors, of course not. But if you look at what's out there for $200 these
days, you won't find much decent.

Peace,
Paul

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:57:32 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:

>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
>and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
>to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
>Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
>book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
>was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
>books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
>not sure where to start.
>
>I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
>necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
>for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
>I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
>feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
>left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
>spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
>good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
>existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
>can be whatever).
>
>Can anyone point me in the right direction?

If you're hoping to get good speakers cheap and easy, forget it.
If you're looking to start a hobby of do-it-yourself speaker
construction, great! Get one of the books on speaker design and have
a go.

If a priority is to fit prettily into an existing setup, you're making
the job infinitely harder. Speakers need to be the size they need to
be. And to be placed where they sound best in a room. If cosmetic
considerations limit your choices of either, you aren't likely to get
good sound whatever you buy or build.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:57:32 GMT, Mac Cool > wrote:

>I would like to build a set of floor speakers, maybe a tweeter, midrange
>and one or two woofers but I'm beginning to wonder if it would be easier
>to build my own space shuttle. I've read one book by David Weems,
>Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System, it's the only
>book on the subject at my local library. Being a total neophyte, the book
>was of marginal help, so I went looking on Amazon. The speaker building
>books I found on Amazon suffered the same criticisms as Weem's book so I'm
>not sure where to start.
>
>I'll be honest, I have a small budget ($200+wood), but I do have all the
>necessary tools, I just want to build some nice speakers. I will settle
>for plans but all the plans I found were for sub boxes.
>
>I should mention that the speakers will be used in a smallish room, 11x16
>feet and that I have congenital hearing damage (about 40% right ear, 20%
>left ear) and I have difficulty distinguishing midrange sounds; so
>spending lots of money would be a waste anyway. I actually have extremely
>good hearing at high frequencies. The speakers will be built to match an
>existing entertainment center (height will be ~40-50", width 8-10", depth
>can be whatever).
>
>Can anyone point me in the right direction?

If you're hoping to get good speakers cheap and easy, forget it.
If you're looking to start a hobby of do-it-yourself speaker
construction, great! Get one of the books on speaker design and have
a go.

If a priority is to fit prettily into an existing setup, you're making
the job infinitely harder. Speakers need to be the size they need to
be. And to be placed where they sound best in a room. If cosmetic
considerations limit your choices of either, you aren't likely to get
good sound whatever you buy or build.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Blind Joni]

>People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. The
>only thing to 'get' is that this person either lacks the communication
>skills to express their thoughts or doesn't know anything to begin with,
>doesn't matter to me.

Sometimes, but it also depends on the listen skills and openmindedness of the
listener. I have one aquaintance who only understands body work analogies when
trying to make points on value of audio services compared to other valued
services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills. The
>only thing to 'get' is that this person either lacks the communication
>skills to express their thoughts or doesn't know anything to begin with,
>doesn't matter to me.

Sometimes, but it also depends on the listen skills and openmindedness of the
listener. I have one aquaintance who only understands body work analogies when
trying to make points on value of audio services compared to other valued
services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
> it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
> potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
>
> Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
> experience.

And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he
can play with them in the bathtub.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
> it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
> potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
>
> Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
> experience.

And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he
can play with them in the bathtub.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Ben Bradley]

On 13 Nov 2004 19:08:59 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>In article > writes:
>
>> Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
>> it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
>> potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
>>
>> Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
>> experience.

Unless you're building something identical to what you built
before, it will be a learning experience. And even if you are trying
to duplicate something (even if you've already built one or two
before), you'll learn something about manufacturing.

>And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he
>can play with them in the bathtub.

In that case I suggest acoustic suspension rather than bass reflex.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

[Ben Bradley]

On 13 Nov 2004 19:08:59 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>In article > writes:
>
>> Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build speakers, so get to
>> it. People here with plenty of experience have suggested references and
>> potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
>>
>> Since you've not built either a boat or speakers it'll be a learning
>> experience.

Unless you're building something identical to what you built
before, it will be a learning experience. And even if you are trying
to duplicate something (even if you've already built one or two
before), you'll learn something about manufacturing.

>And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully they'll float and he
>can play with them in the bathtub.

In that case I suggest acoustic suspension rather than bass reflex.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

[Ben Bradley]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:23:44 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>... { other stuff snipped }

>Resources R Us!

Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:

Resonances R Us!

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

[Ben Bradley]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:23:44 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>... { other stuff snipped }

>Resources R Us!

Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:

Resonances R Us!

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100380490k@trad...
:
: In article
>
writes:
:
: > Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build
speakers, so get to
: > it. People here with plenty of experience have
suggested references and
: > potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
: >
: > Since you've not built either a boat or speakers
it'll be a learning
: > experience.
:
: And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully
they'll float and he
: can play with them in the bathtub.
:

Mike:
I already said this but the bathtub adds a nice touch.

Phil

[anybody-but-bush]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1100380490k@trad...
:
: In article
>
writes:
:
: > Okay, enough with the malarkey. You want to build
speakers, so get to
: > it. People here with plenty of experience have
suggested references and
: > potential pitfalls. Enjoy.
: >
: > Since you've not built either a boat or speakers
it'll be a learning
: > experience.
:
: And if the speakers don't sound good, hopefully
they'll float and he
: can play with them in the bathtub.
:

Mike:
I already said this but the bathtub adds a nice touch.

Phil

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Mac Cool wrote:

> People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills.

Hold up your end of the stick before you start thinking to poke with it.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

x-no archive: yes

Mac Cool wrote:

> People begin with analogies when they have poor communication skills.

Hold up your end of the stick before you start thinking to poke with it.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Ben Bradley wrote:

> >... { other stuff snipped }

> >Resources R Us!

> Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:

> Resonances R Us!

= a small leak along the starboard chine...

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Ben Bradley wrote:

> >... { other stuff snipped }

> >Resources R Us!

> Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:

> Resonances R Us!

= a small leak along the starboard chine...

--
ha

[Maxy]

Nothing to laugh about... ':-)
It started as a joke and now I am an owner of the biggest top-class hifi
italian factories ....


"hank alrich" > ha scritto nel messaggio
. ..
> Ben Bradley wrote:
>
>> >... { other stuff snipped }
>
>> >Resources R Us!
>
>> Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:
>
>> Resonances R Us!
>
> = a small leak along the starboard chine...
>
> --
> ha

[Maxy]

Nothing to laugh about... ':-)
It started as a joke and now I am an owner of the biggest top-class hifi
italian factories ....


"hank alrich" > ha scritto nel messaggio
. ..
> Ben Bradley wrote:
>
>> >... { other stuff snipped }
>
>> >Resources R Us!
>
>> Speaking of DIY speakers, I first read this as:
>
>> Resonances R Us!
>
> = a small leak along the starboard chine...
>
> --
> ha

[Paul Winkler]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message >...
> But if you look at what's out there for $200 these
> days, you won't find much decent.

I dunno, I kinda like the PSB Alpha. You can find the B model for $200 / pair.

(re-lurk)

[Paul Winkler]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message >...
> But if you look at what's out there for $200 these
> days, you won't find much decent.

I dunno, I kinda like the PSB Alpha. You can find the B model for $200 / pair.

(re-lurk)

[Geoff Wood]

Everybody should build their own speakers - it's part of growing up. I'm
about o embark on a 1KW sub, so I guess I haven't finished growing up
yet....

geoff

[Geoff Wood]

Everybody should build their own speakers - it's part of growing up. I'm
about o embark on a 1KW sub, so I guess I haven't finished growing up
yet....

geoff