consistent tv audio levels

[R Krizman]

Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if
anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at
home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall
there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is
digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are
maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and
how it is enforced.

Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is
there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio
volume? How is it done?

This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign
television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of
the box with such erratic levels.

Thanks,
Rick

[Scott Dorsey]

R Krizman > wrote:
>Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if
>anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at
>home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall
>there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything is
>digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that are
>maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and
>how it is enforced.
>
>Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is
>there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all audio
>volume? How is it done?

Hopefully there is a guy riding gains in master control as well, but there
are a vast number of AGC devices in the airchain.

>This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign
>television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out of
>the box with such erratic levels.

It starts with tape level standards and transmission standards and then it
continues with training operators to keep an eye on levels. And then the
local affiliate squashes it a couple times and then the cable company runs
it all through some crappy AGC unit and blows it all to hell anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[WillStG]

> (R Krizman)

>Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if
>anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at
>home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall
>there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything
>is
>digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that
>are
>maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and
>how it is enforced.
>
>Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is
>there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all
>audio
>volume? How is it done?
>
>This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign
>television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out
>of
>the box with such erratic levels.
>

Well - it depends. I would say the main thing that ensures consistent
levels is the gain control circuit in your TV - as between stations it varies
widely and your cable TV providers rarely pay much attention to even getting
the sync times for local breaks spot on, let alone matching audio levels
between providers.

I am sure I have a lot to learn on the subject, but I'll give it a shot.
At the over the air Broadcast networks it is typical that programming
references +4 and commercials rolled out of Master Control reference +8. So
commercials really are a lot hotter, this ****ed off Barbara Streistand during
one of her movies so much that she called ABC and was threatening the tech's if
they wouldn't turn down the levels on the commercials! But on some programming
the commercial breaks may be integrated off tape right in the programs control
room, in that case the levels would match better (some news and sports
programming does this.)

In the cable world it's a different story, you typically reference a +4,
0VU = -20dbFS level out of the control rooms and off tape and at Master control
they will bump it up as high as they can for digital paths with multiband
processing before sending it out. At FNC we have Orbans and TC Electronics
Broadcast processors; listening to what is coming out of master when I am
mixing a show is kind of useless as the levels are way hotter - and they add eq
too. Hopefully that processing makes taped shows, live shows, and shows coming
in from remote locations as well as the commercials and promos rolled off the
Louth hard disk recorders sound somewhat cohesive.

Not that all paths in cable TV are digital paths, but from what I've seen
the signal gets kicked up pretty hot for loudness competition's sake, trying to
get up towards that 0dbFS level neighborhood.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Mike Cleaver]

Solve the problem yourself.
Get an RNC and put it between your TV Cable or Satellite box and your
home theatre.
Set it up in super nice mode and forget it.
Neither the tv stations nor the cable or satellite people give a damn
about levels so you gotta do it yourself.
You can punch it in and out of the circuit if you're watching a well
engineered program.

On 09 Nov 2004 20:22:27 GMT, (WillStG) wrote:

>> (R Krizman)
>
>>Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is it, if
>>anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv set at
>>home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but overall
>>there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that everything
>>is
>>digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's that
>>are
>>maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling standard and
>>how it is enforced.
>>
>>Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the limiters? Is
>>there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls all
>>audio
>>volume? How is it done?
>>
>>This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular foreign
>>television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming out
>>of
>>the box with such erratic levels.
>>
>
> Well - it depends. I would say the main thing that ensures consistent
>levels is the gain control circuit in your TV - as between stations it varies
>widely and your cable TV providers rarely pay much attention to even getting
>the sync times for local breaks spot on, let alone matching audio levels
>between providers.
>
> I am sure I have a lot to learn on the subject, but I'll give it a shot.
>At the over the air Broadcast networks it is typical that programming
>references +4 and commercials rolled out of Master Control reference +8. So
>commercials really are a lot hotter, this ****ed off Barbara Streistand during
>one of her movies so much that she called ABC and was threatening the tech's if
>they wouldn't turn down the levels on the commercials! But on some programming
>the commercial breaks may be integrated off tape right in the programs control
>room, in that case the levels would match better (some news and sports
>programming does this.)
>
> In the cable world it's a different story, you typically reference a +4,
>0VU = -20dbFS level out of the control rooms and off tape and at Master control
>they will bump it up as high as they can for digital paths with multiband
>processing before sending it out. At FNC we have Orbans and TC Electronics
>Broadcast processors; listening to what is coming out of master when I am
>mixing a show is kind of useless as the levels are way hotter - and they add eq
>too. Hopefully that processing makes taped shows, live shows, and shows coming
>in from remote locations as well as the commercials and promos rolled off the
>Louth hard disk recorders sound somewhat cohesive.
>
> Not that all paths in cable TV are digital paths, but from what I've seen
>the signal gets kicked up pretty hot for loudness competition's sake, trying to
>get up towards that 0dbFS level neighborhood.
>
>Will Miho
>NY Music & TV Audio Guy
>Audioist / Fox News
>"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>

Mike Cleaver Broadcast Services
Voice-overs, Newscaster, Engineering and Consulting
Vancouver, BC, Canada

[R Krizman]

<< Solve the problem yourself.
Get an RNC and put it between your TV Cable or Satellite box and your
home theatre.
Set it up in super nice mode and forget it.
Neither the tv stations nor the cable or satellite people give a damn
about levels so you gotta do it yourself.
>><BR><BR>

Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things.

I don't have any control over the satellites or cable distributors, but I'd
like to see the network itself put out a consistent audio level.

I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost
on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the
responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted
way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do
you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster?

Thanks,
Rick

[Richard Crowley]

"R Krizman" wrote ...
> Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things.
>
> I don't have any control over the satellites or cable distributors,
> but I'd like to see the network itself put out a consistent audio level.
>
> I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion
> is a bit lost on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of
> command, who has the responsibility, is there in fact a standard.
> Is there a traditional, accepted way of working that everyone
> stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do you teach this to
> an emerging third world broadcaster?

Yikes. Buy THEM an RNC? How motivated are they? Do they
have any experienced audio people working on the project?
OTOH, there is always post-production processing. :-(

[WillStG]

<< (R Krizman) >>
<< Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things.

I don't have any control over the satellites or cable distributors, but I'd
like to see the network itself put out a consistent audio level.

I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost
on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the
responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted
way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do
you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster? >>

Well - audio can be responsible for the nuts and bolts of what happens
in the audio rooms and studios, but the Broadcast engineers are always
responsible for what happens at the outbound transmission paths and in master
control. They can sometimes be an accomodating sort - or not - but don't let
that fool you and don't step on their toes, or you may be reduced to an
irrelevancy rather quickly.

Have the audio boards in the facility set up at +4, tone at 0VU should
equal -20 on the inputs of the peak reading meters on your Video Tape decks.
It is useful to provide compressors on the audio console groups and a peak
limiter with automakeup gain on the console's 2 buss mix - where they can
*hear* it - this will allow operators to provide a consistent 0VU level that
sounds loud, most TV consultants suggest the audio levels should hover in the
-10 and 0VU.

At minimum you should have an Aphex Dominator on the outbound
transmission path, to protect from overs. Audio is never consulted about
issues having to do with hard disk recorders/servers like the Louth products
that play back commercials, but you might be able to help by making sure
whomever dumps the commercials into the system from the tapes provided by
advertisers has a good precedure, that includes using tone off the tapes to
reference their record levels. The kind of broadcast multiband processing that
is added by the Broadcast engineers is their call, you always see Orbans though
and the TC Electronics Broadcast processor does sound good.

There are also a lot of audio distribution amps in a facility. It is
useful to check them to make the gozoutta is the same as the gozintta. And
for live programming you may have animation devices that play back graphic
animations married to audio SFX or music, like "Deco" or "Profile" units. You
can help establish proper procedures for dumping audio into these units as
well, for consistency or the audio mixers may always have to guess what the
levels will be.

It is not unsual that operators in some areas may not understand audio
levels and how to properly set them, some may confuse the peak levels shown by
VTR meters with the VU meter levels shown on other devices, so establishing
nominal level procedures at every point is the big thing.

Also make sure that if "all in one"

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

Opps. As I was saying, if you have "all in one" micpre compressor unit
(like a Symmetrix) set up in say a voiceover booth, make sure they end up in
the line inputs of any mixers they may end up at. You'd be surprised how often
a Junior engineer thinks plugging them into a micpre input is fine, as long as
you engage the "pad". Makes for a very thin hissy sound you will recognize
very quickly after a while.

So generally you need might go over the facility blueprints, follow the
signal flow and make sure levels match everywhere, and that guys use the proper
procedures who do any recording.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[John O]

> This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
> foreign
> television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming
> out of
> the box with such erratic levels.

What box?

One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking
about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the
receivers. It's just another variable to consider.

-John O

[Scott Dorsey]

R Krizman > wrote:
>
>I'm not a broadcast engineer, so the super technical discussion is a bit lost
>on me. I'm curious about the process, the chain of command, who has the
>responsibility, is there in fact a standard. Is there a traditional, accepted
>way of working that everyone stateside just takes for granted? If so, how do
>you teach this to an emerging third world broadcaster?

In a perfect world, there is a standard accepted way of working. Everyone
sets tones to -20dBFS on digital gear, 0 dB on the meters on analogue gear,
and everything is referenced the same. Machine operators ride gains to keep
levels steady. The operator in master control rides gain to keep levels
steady. This used to be what you'd see everywhere.

In the real world, everybody sticks AVC on everything and then squashes the
crap out of it. The RNC is actually pretty effective as an AVC box. Needless
to say, when the inside plant levels are all over the place going into an
AVC box at the end of the chain, the S/N is variable and seldom optimal.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[R Krizman]

Thanks guys.

I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from
different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there
will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID
(music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is
nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes
of everything.

So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred
at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the
chain?

-R

[Scott Dorsey]

R Krizman > wrote:
>
>I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from
>different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance, there
>will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID
>(music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is
>nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes
>of everything.
>
>So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred
>at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in the
>chain?

More likely the levels on the machine playing the station ID need to be
turned up. Or someone needs to be hired to turn some knobs in master
control.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[james of tucson]

On 2004-11-10, R Krizman > wrote:

> Well....I'm being paid to solve it for them, among other things.

I'll start watching TV again if they stop putting constant trademarks
on the screen. Worst offenders are a disturbing trend to put *sound* on
the aminated graphics. Straw that broke the back was a graphic that
obscured some subtitles.

Enough is enough.

[Mike Cleaver]

Ok, lets be serious here.
In the real world today, only the top networks pay enough to have good
audio engineers and operators.
You'd be surprised how many 8 dollar an hour operators populate radio
and television stations and as long as they hear something coming out
of ths speakers, it's good enough for them.
As Scott says, to compensate for this, the stations add box after box
of audio processing, which they claim controls, enhances and makes
their signal the loudest on the air.
I've found for good level control in both tv and radio, care needs to
be taken when recording or doing live shows.
A Dourrough Loudness Meter helps and then the signal goes to whatever
processing you want to use.
An Orban Optimod (they come in radio, tv and internet models,
carefully adjusted usually is enough to guarantee adequate level
control and to smooth out the differences in the pre-processed audio
coming from a variety of sources.
Notice, I said CAREFULLY ADJUSTED.
Too many people fiddle with knobs and the resulting sound usually can
be compared with what a trash compactor does to garbage.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:22:59 GMT, "John O"
> wrote:

>> This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
>> foreign
>> television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming
>> out of
>> the box with such erratic levels.
>
>What box?
>
>One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking
>about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
>modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the
>receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
>
>-John O
>

Mike Cleaver Broadcast Services
Voice-overs, Newscaster, Engineering and Consulting
Vancouver, BC, Canada

[Nmm]

"John O" > wrote in message >...
> > This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
> > foreign
> > television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming
> > out of
> > the box with such erratic levels.
>
> What box?
>
> One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking
> about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
> modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at the
> receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
>
> -John O


The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your
carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with
other broadcasters.

At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station
Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter
it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts.

On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the
Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable
modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod
Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range.

With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the
volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching
TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi
and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would
light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that
their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to
the kitchen or something.

[james of tucson]

On 2004-11-10, Mike Cleaver > wrote:

> Ok, lets be serious here.
> In the real world today, only the top networks pay enough to have good
> audio engineers and operators.

In the real world, there are also extremely talented people working in food
service, or not at all.

[Eric K. Weber]

There is no need to turn up the commercials their higher quality audio with
less noise causes them to appear louder when sent through the compression
chain.... a good operator will turn them down. The programs typically have
boom mic's or at best laviliers at a distance in a video studio.... The
commercials are recorded with professional voice over talent close to the
microphones in a much quieter environment.

As for the signal chain, I find it hard to understand why stations still
live in the past and put the compressor/limiter at the transmitter site.....
with a digital stl, it should be at the studio end of the system.

Rgds:
Eric

"Nmm" > wrote in message
om...
> "John O" > wrote in message
>...
> > > This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
> > > foreign
> > > television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is
coming
> > > out of
> > > the box with such erratic levels.
> >
> > What box?
> >
> > One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're
talking
> > about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
> > modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at
the
> > receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
> >
> > -John O
>
>
> The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your
> carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with
> other broadcasters.
>
> At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station
> Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter
> it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts.
>
> On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the
> Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable
> modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod
> Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range.
>
> With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the
> volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching
> TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi
> and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would
> light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that
> their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to
> the kitchen or something.

[Eric K. Weber]

There is no need to turn up the commercials their higher quality audio with
less noise causes them to appear louder when sent through the compression
chain.... a good operator will turn them down. The programs typically have
boom mic's or at best laviliers at a distance in a video studio.... The
commercials are recorded with professional voice over talent close to the
microphones in a much quieter environment.

As for the signal chain, I find it hard to understand why stations still
live in the past and put the compressor/limiter at the transmitter site.....
with a digital stl, it should be at the studio end of the system.

Rgds:
Eric

"Nmm" > wrote in message
om...
> "John O" > wrote in message
>...
> > > This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
> > > foreign
> > > television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is
coming
> > > out of
> > > the box with such erratic levels.
> >
> > What box?
> >
> > One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're
talking
> > about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
> > modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at
the
> > receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
> >
> > -John O
>
>
> The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your
> carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with
> other broadcasters.
>
> At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station
> Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter
> it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts.
>
> On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the
> Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable
> modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod
> Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range.
>
> With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the
> volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching
> TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi
> and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would
> light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that
> their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to
> the kitchen or something.

[Robert Orban]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>"John O" > wrote in message
>...
>> > This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
>> > foreign
>> > television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming
>> > out of
>> > the box with such erratic levels.
>>
>> What box?
>>
>> One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking
>> about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
>> modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at
the
>> receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
>>
>> -John O
>
>
> The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your
>carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with
>other broadcasters.
>
> At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station
>Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter
>it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts.
>
>On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the
>Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable
>modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod
>Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range.
>
>With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the
>volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching
>TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi
>and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would
>light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that
>their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to
>the kitchen or something.

All Orban Optimod-TV processors include a CBS Loudness Controller, which
monitors the subjective loudness at the processor's output and, if it exceeds
a preset threshold, turns down the compressor's output so that the subjective
loudness is at the Loudness Controller's threshold.

The LC threshold is adjustable. If one is observing commercials that are
noticeably higher in loudness than the surrounding program material, it
probably means that the LC threshold has been set too high.

Also, the best that a LC can do is to constrain the loudness to a threshold.
If the program material surrounding a commercial is naturally quiet such
that it falls below the LC threshold (soft background sounds like rustling
leaves and the like), then the commercial will still sound louder than the
program. This is inevitable; contextual loudness control is very risky because
no sponsor would accept a situation where his commercial was constrained to
the same loudness as rustling leaves!

BTW, Optimod-TV units generally have a 25 dB gain reduction range and normally
operate at 10 dB of gain reduction. Silence gating will move the gain slowly
to the "idle gain" value (typically -10 dB) if the program level falls below
the gating threshold. Our latest unit, the 8382, also uses window gating that
greatly slows the release time as long as the compressor's output level is
within a preset offset to the level associated with the threshold of
compression. Typically, this offset value is 3 dB -- as long as the
compressor's actual output is within 3 dB of the compressor's target output,
the compressor's release time will be very slow (typically 0.5 dB/second) and
it will not noticeably increase the density of the program material.

Our website (www.orban.com) has more info on these units and their operating
manuals can be downloaded from ftp.orban.com.

Bob Orban

[Robert Orban]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>"John O" > wrote in message
>...
>> > This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
>> > foreign
>> > television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is coming
>> > out of
>> > the box with such erratic levels.
>>
>> What box?
>>
>> One area that hasn't been addressed is the transmitter. If you're talking
>> about a signal that has been modulated to Channel 3 or whatever, the FM
>> modulation levels (deviation) have *everything* to do with the volume at
the
>> receivers. It's just another variable to consider.
>>
>> -John O
>
>
> The FCC & CRTC place a limit to how much you can modulate your
>carrier frequency. If you overmodulate you start interfering with
>other broadcasters.
>
> At most Transmitter sites, once things come in off the STL ( Station
>Transmitter Link ) before the signal gets to the actual transmitter
>it will go through a hard limiter of some sorts.
>
>On the station end before it gets uplinked to the STL and gets to the
>Distribution amp that send it to all the fiber links and all the cable
>modulators there is usually something like an Orban 8282 Optimod
>Processor, or similar high end processor that limits the output range.
>
>With all that limiting I still want to know how they crank up the
>volume on the comercial breaks without overmodulating. When watching
>TV I used to use my old Symetrix CL-150s on the output of my Beta-hifi
>and when any station went to comercial, the gain reduction LEDs would
>light up like a x-mass tree. It seems most TV stations 'desire' that
>their ads are a lot louder than program, for people that walk out to
>the kitchen or something.

All Orban Optimod-TV processors include a CBS Loudness Controller, which
monitors the subjective loudness at the processor's output and, if it exceeds
a preset threshold, turns down the compressor's output so that the subjective
loudness is at the Loudness Controller's threshold.

The LC threshold is adjustable. If one is observing commercials that are
noticeably higher in loudness than the surrounding program material, it
probably means that the LC threshold has been set too high.

Also, the best that a LC can do is to constrain the loudness to a threshold.
If the program material surrounding a commercial is naturally quiet such
that it falls below the LC threshold (soft background sounds like rustling
leaves and the like), then the commercial will still sound louder than the
program. This is inevitable; contextual loudness control is very risky because
no sponsor would accept a situation where his commercial was constrained to
the same loudness as rustling leaves!

BTW, Optimod-TV units generally have a 25 dB gain reduction range and normally
operate at 10 dB of gain reduction. Silence gating will move the gain slowly
to the "idle gain" value (typically -10 dB) if the program level falls below
the gating threshold. Our latest unit, the 8382, also uses window gating that
greatly slows the release time as long as the compressor's output level is
within a preset offset to the level associated with the threshold of
compression. Typically, this offset value is 3 dB -- as long as the
compressor's actual output is within 3 dB of the compressor's target output,
the compressor's release time will be very slow (typically 0.5 dB/second) and
it will not noticeably increase the density of the program material.

Our website (www.orban.com) has more info on these units and their operating
manuals can be downloaded from ftp.orban.com.

Bob Orban

[Lorin David Schultz]

"R Krizman" > wrote:
>
> I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages
from
> different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For
instance, there
> will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a
station ID
> (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison.


It happens in our plant all the time too. Anything that comes out of
the Avid suite is too low on-air. Possible solutions include:

1. Persuade the creators of the Station ID's to make them louder. Hey,
it could happen...

2. Persuade the operators in the Central Equipment Room to LOOK AT THE
****ING METERS when they transfer stuff into the server. This ain't
likely to happen.

3. Remove every single peak meter in the building and replace it with a
VU. Nothing has done more to **** up consistency in audio levels across
the facility than peak meters. No two people (audio pros excepted)
interpret them the same way. VUs minimize the interpretation
variability. Just teach all the operators to shoot for the spot where
the line turns red.

4. Put a brickwall limiter across the output of the station and push the
gain until everything is all the way up all the time.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Lorin David Schultz]

"R Krizman" > wrote:
>
> I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages
from
> different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For
instance, there
> will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a
station ID
> (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison.


It happens in our plant all the time too. Anything that comes out of
the Avid suite is too low on-air. Possible solutions include:

1. Persuade the creators of the Station ID's to make them louder. Hey,
it could happen...

2. Persuade the operators in the Central Equipment Room to LOOK AT THE
****ING METERS when they transfer stuff into the server. This ain't
likely to happen.

3. Remove every single peak meter in the building and replace it with a
VU. Nothing has done more to **** up consistency in audio levels across
the facility than peak meters. No two people (audio pros excepted)
interpret them the same way. VUs minimize the interpretation
variability. Just teach all the operators to shoot for the spot where
the line turns red.

4. Put a brickwall limiter across the output of the station and push the
gain until everything is all the way up all the time.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Lorin David Schultz]

"R Krizman" > wrote:
>
> Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is
it, if
> anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv
set at
> home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but
overall
> there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that
everything is
> digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's
that are
> maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling
standard and
> how it is enforced.
>
> Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the
limiters? Is
> there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls
all audio
> volume? How is it done?
>
> This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
foreign
> television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is
coming out of
> the box with such erratic levels.
>
> Thanks,
> Rick



You're looking at essentially four different kinds of material going to
air:

1. Network programming. Usually fed to the station via satellite,
sometimes via other proprietary means. There's not really a lot you can
do with this stuff. The operators *could* ride the levels during the
feed, but it's probably not a good idea -- they'd turn it up while
Tony's whispering and wind up with a nasty over when he fires his gun a
second later. Not that it matters, the operators don't have time for
that anyway. Accept that there will actually be some dynamic range in
some dramas (and that some will use companders that make dialog
unintelligible) and move on.

2. Commercials. These *can* and *should* be managed. Forget aligning
the tone at the top of the tape to ref level. Any post house worth it's
salt will "cheat" the reference anyway, so don't trust the tone. Just
play the damn spot and set the input levels to something reasonable.

3. In-house programming. This can be taped or live. Either way, there
is again opportunity for control here. Align the board so that 0VU =
+4dBu, and set the A-D converters so that +4dBu = -20dBFS. Compress
early and often. A couple stages of gentle compression usually sound
better than a whole bunch all at once. Put all the talent mics into one
subgroup with its own compressor, and feed "produced" material
(prerecorded music, ID carts, etc.) into a separate pair of groups with
their own compression. Periodically send 0VU tone from the control room
to master control to make sure the input trim in Master is set properly.
In-house shows won't have zero crest factor like the commercials so the
commercials will still seem louder, but at least they'll be close.

4. In-house spots. Station IDs, PSAs, promos, etc. The ones Jane did
this morning will be 6 dB different than the ones Joe will produce this
afternoon. When Jack fills in, his will be at a different level than
either Joe's or Jane's spots. All of them will be lower than the
commercials. See item (2) above -- listen to them and watch the meters
when loading them into the server.

There's rarely a compressor anywhere in the path with in-house spots, so
there can be a lot of variability within the spot itself (you have no
idea how many times I've had to ask an editor if they even had the
speakers *ON* when they cut an item -- you wouldn't believe how much
level difference they'll ignore, never mind grossly muddy EQ). Ideally,
the work flow should involve all in-house spots taking a short detour
through audio post before they're loaded, but there often isn't a system
in place for that. It may be prudent to have a compressor in the server
input chain, but that would require having someone who knows how to use
it doing the input. That ain't likely. The best you can hope for is
audio guys who'll complain to Engineering about any really bad ones they
notice, and take the initiative to clean them up and get them reloaded.

Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Lorin David Schultz]

"R Krizman" > wrote:
>
> Here's a question for Will or anybody else who does tv audio. What is
it, if
> anything, that ensures a consistent audio level coming out of my tv
set at
> home. I know, commercials are louder, or are perceived as such, but
overall
> there is a consistency to a network's sound. Especially now that
everything is
> digital and coming in at all sorts of reference levels, including CD's
that are
> maxed out with volume, I'm wondering if there is any controlling
standard and
> how it is enforced.
>
> Do individual show mixers just bump everything up against the
limiters? Is
> there some guy somewhere holding the "master cylinder" that controls
all audio
> volume? How is it done?
>
> This is relevant to me because I've been consulting for a particular
foreign
> television channel and am trying to figure out why their audio is
coming out of
> the box with such erratic levels.
>
> Thanks,
> Rick



You're looking at essentially four different kinds of material going to
air:

1. Network programming. Usually fed to the station via satellite,
sometimes via other proprietary means. There's not really a lot you can
do with this stuff. The operators *could* ride the levels during the
feed, but it's probably not a good idea -- they'd turn it up while
Tony's whispering and wind up with a nasty over when he fires his gun a
second later. Not that it matters, the operators don't have time for
that anyway. Accept that there will actually be some dynamic range in
some dramas (and that some will use companders that make dialog
unintelligible) and move on.

2. Commercials. These *can* and *should* be managed. Forget aligning
the tone at the top of the tape to ref level. Any post house worth it's
salt will "cheat" the reference anyway, so don't trust the tone. Just
play the damn spot and set the input levels to something reasonable.

3. In-house programming. This can be taped or live. Either way, there
is again opportunity for control here. Align the board so that 0VU =
+4dBu, and set the A-D converters so that +4dBu = -20dBFS. Compress
early and often. A couple stages of gentle compression usually sound
better than a whole bunch all at once. Put all the talent mics into one
subgroup with its own compressor, and feed "produced" material
(prerecorded music, ID carts, etc.) into a separate pair of groups with
their own compression. Periodically send 0VU tone from the control room
to master control to make sure the input trim in Master is set properly.
In-house shows won't have zero crest factor like the commercials so the
commercials will still seem louder, but at least they'll be close.

4. In-house spots. Station IDs, PSAs, promos, etc. The ones Jane did
this morning will be 6 dB different than the ones Joe will produce this
afternoon. When Jack fills in, his will be at a different level than
either Joe's or Jane's spots. All of them will be lower than the
commercials. See item (2) above -- listen to them and watch the meters
when loading them into the server.

There's rarely a compressor anywhere in the path with in-house spots, so
there can be a lot of variability within the spot itself (you have no
idea how many times I've had to ask an editor if they even had the
speakers *ON* when they cut an item -- you wouldn't believe how much
level difference they'll ignore, never mind grossly muddy EQ). Ideally,
the work flow should involve all in-house spots taking a short detour
through audio post before they're loaded, but there often isn't a system
in place for that. It may be prudent to have a compressor in the server
input chain, but that would require having someone who knows how to use
it doing the input. That ain't likely. The best you can hope for is
audio guys who'll complain to Engineering about any really bad ones they
notice, and take the initiative to clean them up and get them reloaded.

Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0500, R Krizman wrote
(in article >):

> Thanks guys.
>
> I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from
> different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance,
> there
> will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID
> (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is
> nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes
> of everything.
>
> So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred
> at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in
> the
> chain?
>
> -R

If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills
here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D
channels, even when it's the same show.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0500, R Krizman wrote
(in article >):

> Thanks guys.
>
> I've noticed with this particular network that graphics/music packages from
> different sources come out of the tv at different volumes. For instance,
> there
> will be a show closing theme, bright and loud. Then we go to a station ID
> (music married to video) that is very soft by comparison. I assume there is
> nobody sitting in a box with a master control adjusting the relative volumes
> of everything.
>
> So to correct a problem such as this, does the music need to be retransferred
> at a hotter level? Would this indicate that there are insufficient AVCs in
> the
> chain?
>
> -R

If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills
here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D
channels, even when it's the same show.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[R Krizman]

<< Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked? >><BR><BR>

Actually that's very helpful. Thanks to all for taking the time to spell some
of this out. I think I can do one of two things. Either bring over my own
audio "foreign expert" to go through the whole system, or insist that they
solve it themselves. In the meantime I think if some of the music is
retransferred to its video mate some improvement could be made.

-R

[R Krizman]

<< Did any of that help, or are you now just feeling more frustrated than
before you asked? >><BR><BR>

Actually that's very helpful. Thanks to all for taking the time to spell some
of this out. I think I can do one of two things. Either bring over my own
audio "foreign expert" to go through the whole system, or insist that they
solve it themselves. In the meantime I think if some of the music is
retransferred to its video mate some improvement could be made.

-R

[Rob Reedijk]

Ty Ford > wrote:

> If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills
> here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D
> channels, even when it's the same show.

Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can
be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we
often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like
the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the
wrong way.

These people really have no idea what they are doing.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

Ty Ford > wrote:

> If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local afills
> here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their D
> channels, even when it's the same show.

Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can
be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we
often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like
the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the
wrong way.

These people really have no idea what they are doing.

Rob R.

[Wayne]

>Ty Ford > wrote:
>
>> If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local
>afills
>> here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their
>D
>> channels, even when it's the same show.
>
>Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can
>be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we
>often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like
>the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the
>wrong way.
>
>These people really have no idea what they are doing.
>
>Rob R.
>

It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has
only video in it (television).

Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard
life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment.


--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

[Wayne]

>Ty Ford > wrote:
>
>> If you think that's bad (and it is), it's only worse on DTV. The local
>afills
>> here typically have different audio levels on their NTSC that any of their
>D
>> channels, even when it's the same show.
>
>Not only that but even if the levels were correct, the sound quality can
>be awful. It's when we are watching cheap digital channels that we
>often don't understand some of the dialogue (never the big channels like
>the CBC) since they set all kinds of things like de-essers and EQs the
>wrong way.
>
>These people really have no idea what they are doing.
>
>Rob R.
>

It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has
only video in it (television).

Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard
life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment.


--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

[R Krizman]

<< It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV
has
only video in it (television). >><BR><BR>

You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video without
audio is surveillance.

-R

[R Krizman]

<< It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV
has
only video in it (television). >><BR><BR>

You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video without
audio is surveillance.

-R

[WillStG]

<< (R Krizman) >>
<< You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video
without
audio is surveillance. >>

And...

"Audio is 50% of the Motion Picture Experience."

- George Lucas



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

<< (R Krizman) >>
<< You need to remember two things. Audio without video is radio. Video
without
audio is surveillance. >>

And...

"Audio is 50% of the Motion Picture Experience."

- George Lucas



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

<< (Wayne) >>
<< Must be a hard
life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. >>

Television has been very very good to me. It's stressful but that's what
you get paid for.

However one of these days I might have a few choice words to share about
my experiences with our Calrec vendor and their Sigma Console.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

<< (Wayne) >>
<< Must be a hard
life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment. >>

Television has been very very good to me. It's stressful but that's what
you get paid for.

However one of these days I might have a few choice words to share about
my experiences with our Calrec vendor and their Sigma Console.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audioist / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[james of tucson]

On 2004-11-19, Wayne > wrote:

> It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has
> only video in it (television).
>
> Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard
> life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment.

The big picture is that guys who *do* know what they are doing, don't
get successful and invest in such a way that they find themselves in
control, being the guy who says how it's going to be or else go pound
sand.

It's a recurring theme in every industry. The people at the bottom are
so smart, but never smart enough to get promoted or make enough money to
buy a seat on the board or whatever.

Meanwhile, these ignorant pinheads manage to do exactly that. Why do
you suppose this problem is so commonplace?

[james of tucson]

On 2004-11-19, Wayne > wrote:

> It's the same old sad story. If it ain't VIDEO, then it don't matter. TV has
> only video in it (television).
>
> Not only do they not know what they're doing, they don't care. Must be a hard
> life for guys like Will who work in that kind of envoirment.

The big picture is that guys who *do* know what they are doing, don't
get successful and invest in such a way that they find themselves in
control, being the guy who says how it's going to be or else go pound
sand.

It's a recurring theme in every industry. The people at the bottom are
so smart, but never smart enough to get promoted or make enough money to
buy a seat on the board or whatever.

Meanwhile, these ignorant pinheads manage to do exactly that. Why do
you suppose this problem is so commonplace?