recording handbells

[Scott Munson]

I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?
Will changing the recording levels help?

thx,
scott

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
>naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
>When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
>entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

What sort of mike are you using?

>Will changing the recording levels help?

What sort of recorder are you using? If it has some sort of perceptual
encoding system, it may be throwing away low level bass information, and
if so, setting your levels up may help.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
>naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
>When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
>entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

What sort of mike are you using?

>Will changing the recording levels help?

What sort of recorder are you using? If it has some sort of perceptual
encoding system, it may be throwing away low level bass information, and
if so, setting your levels up may help.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
>naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
>When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
>entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

Oh yes, and if you put your head at the mike position, stick a finger
in one ear, and listen with only the other ear, do you hear a good balance?
Or do you not hear the lower bells there either? If you can't hear them at
the mike position, the mike won't pick them up.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
>naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
>When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
>entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

Oh yes, and if you put your head at the mike position, stick a finger
in one ear, and listen with only the other ear, do you hear a good balance?
Or do you not hear the lower bells there either? If you can't hear them at
the mike position, the mike won't pick them up.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

What are you using now? And where are you placing it?

> Will changing the recording levels help?

No.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

What are you using now? And where are you placing it?

> Will changing the recording levels help?

No.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Scott Munson wrote:

> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?
> Will changing the recording levels help?

Please describe your signal chain in detail.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Scott Munson wrote:

> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?
> Will changing the recording levels help?

Please describe your signal chain in detail.

--
ha

[Kent Kingery]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message
om...

> I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

Last year, I recorded our church handbell choir with a Tascam portable DAT
(DA-P1) and two Audio-Technica 4033a microphones. Admittedly, this isn't a
great setup, but it's what I had available at the time. I spent a lot of
time listening in the room during various rehearsals, putting my head where
I thought the mics ought to go. I used the technique Scott Dorsey describes
(listening with one ear) as well. In all, I think I spent time in five
different rehearsals to find the optimal spot.

Not knowing any better, I just set the mics on a stereo bar, pointing one
toward the left side of the sanctuary and one toward the right. I put on my
headphones and spent some time listening. I adjusted, listened some more,
adjusted some more, and eventually got a placement that sounded good to me.
I made several test recordings before the actual event. I had the luxury of
a patient choir director and handbell choir.

Some weeks later, I was able to record them again using a pair of Shure
SM-81s that Harvey Gerst loaned me (thanks again, Harvey!). Even better
results, and I essentially used them in a crossed-pair configuration.

I was very pleased with the results (as was the choir director), and I think
my recording holds up well against professionally produced handbell
recordings I have heard subsequently.

Hope my story helps you some. The real key was taking the time to listen
all over the room.

Kent

[Kent Kingery]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message
om...

> I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?

Last year, I recorded our church handbell choir with a Tascam portable DAT
(DA-P1) and two Audio-Technica 4033a microphones. Admittedly, this isn't a
great setup, but it's what I had available at the time. I spent a lot of
time listening in the room during various rehearsals, putting my head where
I thought the mics ought to go. I used the technique Scott Dorsey describes
(listening with one ear) as well. In all, I think I spent time in five
different rehearsals to find the optimal spot.

Not knowing any better, I just set the mics on a stereo bar, pointing one
toward the left side of the sanctuary and one toward the right. I put on my
headphones and spent some time listening. I adjusted, listened some more,
adjusted some more, and eventually got a placement that sounded good to me.
I made several test recordings before the actual event. I had the luxury of
a patient choir director and handbell choir.

Some weeks later, I was able to record them again using a pair of Shure
SM-81s that Harvey Gerst loaned me (thanks again, Harvey!). Even better
results, and I essentially used them in a crossed-pair configuration.

I was very pleased with the results (as was the choir director), and I think
my recording holds up well against professionally produced handbell
recordings I have heard subsequently.

Hope my story helps you some. The real key was taking the time to listen
all over the room.

Kent

[Mike Clayton]

In article >,
(Scott Munson) wrote:

> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?
> Will changing the recording levels help?
>
> thx,
> scott

Scott, as you've just discovered, the low end output from handbells is
perceptually a lot less than the middle and upper bells.

I've made some recordings of the handbell group I was in for some years. I
got the best result by coming in fairly close (about 2 metres out and no
more than a metre up) with a good stereo pair in ORTF.

You will need, as others have said, to experiment with the microphone placing.

Also consider the arrangement being played - in most cases the bass bells
are used sparingly because of the persistence of the hum note, although a
good choir will be skilled in muffling techniques to control it.

In summary, there isn't any really loud bass sound so try to concentrate
on capturing that which there is but in a way that reflects the natural
balance of the choir.

That's the end of today's lesson from RAP's resident bell ringer! Mostly
decent and god fearing tower bells these days, but he can still wield four
handbells at once with a certain amount of elan!

--
Mike Clayton

[Mike Clayton]

In article >,
(Scott Munson) wrote:

> I'm not a very experienced sound tech by any means, so forgive my
> naivete. I've been recording a handbell choir with a digital recorder.
> When listening to the recordings, I'm losing the low bells almost
> entirely. The high bells are crystal clear. Do I need a better mic?
> Will changing the recording levels help?
>
> thx,
> scott

Scott, as you've just discovered, the low end output from handbells is
perceptually a lot less than the middle and upper bells.

I've made some recordings of the handbell group I was in for some years. I
got the best result by coming in fairly close (about 2 metres out and no
more than a metre up) with a good stereo pair in ORTF.

You will need, as others have said, to experiment with the microphone placing.

Also consider the arrangement being played - in most cases the bass bells
are used sparingly because of the persistence of the hum note, although a
good choir will be skilled in muffling techniques to control it.

In summary, there isn't any really loud bass sound so try to concentrate
on capturing that which there is but in a way that reflects the natural
balance of the choir.

That's the end of today's lesson from RAP's resident bell ringer! Mostly
decent and god fearing tower bells these days, but he can still wield four
handbells at once with a certain amount of elan!

--
Mike Clayton

[Scott Munson]

Thank you all for you quick responses. I honestly have no idea what
kind of mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.

The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
one mic closer to the bass bells.

[Scott Munson]

Thank you all for you quick responses. I honestly have no idea what
kind of mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.

The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
one mic closer to the bass bells.

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>
>The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
>wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
>a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
>will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
>getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
>one mic closer to the bass bells.

Spacious and live might be the result of a wider microphone pattern up closer
than a narrow one far back.

If you can't move them around and the bass ones are in the back, you might
also consider trying to raise the microphones up more.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Scott Munson > wrote:
>
>The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
>wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
>a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
>will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
>getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
>one mic closer to the bass bells.

Spacious and live might be the result of a wider microphone pattern up closer
than a narrow one far back.

If you can't move them around and the bass ones are in the back, you might
also consider trying to raise the microphones up more.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Kurt Albershardt]

Scott Munson wrote:
> I honestly have no idea what kind of
> mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.

That might be a good part of your problem.

What machine?

[Kurt Albershardt]

Scott Munson wrote:
> I honestly have no idea what kind of
> mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.

That might be a good part of your problem.

What machine?

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message m...
> Thank you all for you quick responses. I honestly have no idea what
> kind of mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.
>
> The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
> wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
> a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
> will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
> getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
> one mic closer to the bass bells.


Hi Scott,

The guys around here helped me out Christmas before last when I was
recording my church's annual Christmas musical, live to 2-track, for a
potential release. It was quite a little 'to-do' for a small church like the
one I attend... featuring the church's band, the church's choir, Danny
Wright on Piano with Joseph Vincelli on sax, and the Brookhaven Handbell
Choir from Dallas - - each with individual segments, followed by a grand
finale in which they all performed together.

I'm also the front of house operator there every Sunday, so I had a
fairly decent grip on the room itself in advance. That however, did
not help the 'presence' of the bass bells. :-( They are a tough set
of instruments to appreciate with microphones.

I attended a rehearsal of the handbell choir prior to our own rehearsal so
that I could view the ensemble and hear a couple of the tunes they would
be playing. On the day of the event, another full-blown rehearsal of all
parties involved was held in the afternoon at the church. How the bass
bells were 'carrying' was not apparent in the sanctuary itself... things did
seem to be quite in line acoustically. I was running tape as a rehearsal
as well, and after the handbell choir was finished with their portion, the
assistant director approached me and asked to hear the tape.

With the 32 channel console already maxed out, at this point my day had
become a bit of a mess, but we rolled back for a listen. I though that what
we were getting on tape was more then just a good representation of the
handbells, but this gentleman was certain that there should be more bass
bells "in the mix".

Left to right on the stage, was...

The church band ("Rejoice")...

Drums 7
Bass 1
Guitar 1
Sax 1
Trumpet 1
Flute 1
Synthesizer & keybords (triple tiered, stereo DIs) 6
Three lead singers 3

Piano position (For both "Rejoice" and Danny Wright) 2

Featured Soloist (Joe Vincelli, sax) 1

Podium and 'lapel' lavalier mics 3

The church choir (mics suspended from ceiling) 6

The Handbell Choir (over 25 players) 2


There's my 32 channels.... and there was this cat telling me he had
to have "More Bass Bells!". So I went under the stage and grabbed
the old Mackie 2404, ran to the car a grabbed a pair of KM-184s and
proceed to re-route the cabling for the bells to the Mackie, where I could
sub-mix the (now four mics) handbells into the only two channels left
available at the FOH.

The original two mics for the handbells, which appeared to me to be
working as adequately as possible - and were, given what I have learned
about the bass bells - were CAD E-100s. There was plenty of bleed
between mics across the stage as well that added ambiance to the
bells. This had to be dealt with along the way, as every single mic
input other than the podium had to be open during the grand finale.

I had these mics placed about 6 feet in front of the front row of bells
and about 7 feet high.

There were three rows of bell players in total, each row a foot higher
than the tables in front. I left them there and at the prodding of the
assistant handbell choir director, added the pair of KM-184s about
four feet above the height of the bass bell players on the back row,
about three feet in front of them, and they were about 6 feet apart.
(Small diaphragm condensers)

This was a big mistake. No one in the second row was disturbed,
but this was simply too close for adequate sound developement.
So close, that the 'waving' of the vibrating bells was quite apparent.
Otherwise even-sounding tones were changed into a dopplerish
wongy sound as the mouth of the bells passed in the direction of
the newly added mics. Also, the 'clappers' made thier own fair
share of noise that had not been present earlier. It was livable
but it was a detriment in the long run... one of the only parts of the
evening that lended to the "What was that sound?" question during
playback.

When the bass bell players changed to 'tone bars'... it was quite a
unique sound and the mics were a great deal more useful. The
bass tone bars sounded *terrific*, but the bass bells suffered.

To get on with it, I can advise you *not* to try adding low end via the
use of EQ... it just didn't happen. The general noise in the room (air
conditioning, etc.) was amplified more than the bass bells. Keep
your distance from the bells and let the room do it's thing. Once
again, as others have mentioned, listen to the room before placing
the mics as there may be points where the bass frequencies cancel.

The best sound on tape for the night, was in the opening moments of
the evening's show wherein the bell choir marched through the front
doors of the church, down the aisles and up to the stage - - this all
being picked up by the CAD E-100s, 100 feet away listening to the
reflections of the room. Though there was never the sound of 'strong'
bass tones, they were definitely there.

I haven't gone out of my way to record handbells since that show.
This is something that to me, obviously will seriously be dependent
upon the room you are recording in.

I can post MP3 samples of the live to 2-track recording if....


Best of luck,

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Scott Munson" > wrote in message m...
> Thank you all for you quick responses. I honestly have no idea what
> kind of mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.
>
> The recordings I made so far have been from the audience (don't
> wince!) in concert halls and large churches, so the placement has been
> a fair distance back (I was going for the spacious, live sound). I
> will experiment with getting up closer for a clearer sound and either
> getting 2 mics, one on the low end and one on the high, or putting the
> one mic closer to the bass bells.


Hi Scott,

The guys around here helped me out Christmas before last when I was
recording my church's annual Christmas musical, live to 2-track, for a
potential release. It was quite a little 'to-do' for a small church like the
one I attend... featuring the church's band, the church's choir, Danny
Wright on Piano with Joseph Vincelli on sax, and the Brookhaven Handbell
Choir from Dallas - - each with individual segments, followed by a grand
finale in which they all performed together.

I'm also the front of house operator there every Sunday, so I had a
fairly decent grip on the room itself in advance. That however, did
not help the 'presence' of the bass bells. :-( They are a tough set
of instruments to appreciate with microphones.

I attended a rehearsal of the handbell choir prior to our own rehearsal so
that I could view the ensemble and hear a couple of the tunes they would
be playing. On the day of the event, another full-blown rehearsal of all
parties involved was held in the afternoon at the church. How the bass
bells were 'carrying' was not apparent in the sanctuary itself... things did
seem to be quite in line acoustically. I was running tape as a rehearsal
as well, and after the handbell choir was finished with their portion, the
assistant director approached me and asked to hear the tape.

With the 32 channel console already maxed out, at this point my day had
become a bit of a mess, but we rolled back for a listen. I though that what
we were getting on tape was more then just a good representation of the
handbells, but this gentleman was certain that there should be more bass
bells "in the mix".

Left to right on the stage, was...

The church band ("Rejoice")...

Drums 7
Bass 1
Guitar 1
Sax 1
Trumpet 1
Flute 1
Synthesizer & keybords (triple tiered, stereo DIs) 6
Three lead singers 3

Piano position (For both "Rejoice" and Danny Wright) 2

Featured Soloist (Joe Vincelli, sax) 1

Podium and 'lapel' lavalier mics 3

The church choir (mics suspended from ceiling) 6

The Handbell Choir (over 25 players) 2


There's my 32 channels.... and there was this cat telling me he had
to have "More Bass Bells!". So I went under the stage and grabbed
the old Mackie 2404, ran to the car a grabbed a pair of KM-184s and
proceed to re-route the cabling for the bells to the Mackie, where I could
sub-mix the (now four mics) handbells into the only two channels left
available at the FOH.

The original two mics for the handbells, which appeared to me to be
working as adequately as possible - and were, given what I have learned
about the bass bells - were CAD E-100s. There was plenty of bleed
between mics across the stage as well that added ambiance to the
bells. This had to be dealt with along the way, as every single mic
input other than the podium had to be open during the grand finale.

I had these mics placed about 6 feet in front of the front row of bells
and about 7 feet high.

There were three rows of bell players in total, each row a foot higher
than the tables in front. I left them there and at the prodding of the
assistant handbell choir director, added the pair of KM-184s about
four feet above the height of the bass bell players on the back row,
about three feet in front of them, and they were about 6 feet apart.
(Small diaphragm condensers)

This was a big mistake. No one in the second row was disturbed,
but this was simply too close for adequate sound developement.
So close, that the 'waving' of the vibrating bells was quite apparent.
Otherwise even-sounding tones were changed into a dopplerish
wongy sound as the mouth of the bells passed in the direction of
the newly added mics. Also, the 'clappers' made thier own fair
share of noise that had not been present earlier. It was livable
but it was a detriment in the long run... one of the only parts of the
evening that lended to the "What was that sound?" question during
playback.

When the bass bell players changed to 'tone bars'... it was quite a
unique sound and the mics were a great deal more useful. The
bass tone bars sounded *terrific*, but the bass bells suffered.

To get on with it, I can advise you *not* to try adding low end via the
use of EQ... it just didn't happen. The general noise in the room (air
conditioning, etc.) was amplified more than the bass bells. Keep
your distance from the bells and let the room do it's thing. Once
again, as others have mentioned, listen to the room before placing
the mics as there may be points where the bass frequencies cancel.

The best sound on tape for the night, was in the opening moments of
the evening's show wherein the bell choir marched through the front
doors of the church, down the aisles and up to the stage - - this all
being picked up by the CAD E-100s, 100 feet away listening to the
reflections of the room. Though there was never the sound of 'strong'
bass tones, they were definitely there.

I haven't gone out of my way to record handbells since that show.
This is something that to me, obviously will seriously be dependent
upon the room you are recording in.

I can post MP3 samples of the live to 2-track recording if....


Best of luck,

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Scott Munson]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote in message >...
> Scott Munson wrote:
> > I honestly have no idea what kind of
> > mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> > machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.
>
> That might be a good part of your problem.
>
> What machine?

I have a Tascam Pocket Studio 5.

[Scott Munson]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote in message >...
> Scott Munson wrote:
> > I honestly have no idea what kind of
> > mic I'm using (told you I'm kinda clueless). It came with the
> > machine and I can't find any docs that came with it.
>
> That might be a good part of your problem.
>
> What machine?

I have a Tascam Pocket Studio 5.