Pin 3 hot - why do I care?

[Jay Levitt]

I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.

And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
at all. Right?

But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Fill X]

it's a religious issue to some. And scott dorsey has always told me not to get
involved in these arguments. I care. I correct the polarity rather than
flipping it in the console, but that's me.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Pooh Bear]

Jay Levitt wrote:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?

If it's proper balanced in / out then overall polarity is preserved, so no
need to make converters.


> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?

Was the wiring following the EQ the same as before he plugged his
Soundcraft desk into it ?

There is one possible suggestion. Some so-called 'balanced outs' don't have
'servo action' ( compensates for unbalanced load ). Early Mackies certainly
had this problem. When they drive an unbalanced input, this can cause
trouble. Sounds like the 'hot' leg may have been driving into ground as the
result of the unexpected pin hot change.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Jay Levitt wrote:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?

If it's proper balanced in / out then overall polarity is preserved, so no
need to make converters.


> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?

Was the wiring following the EQ the same as before he plugged his
Soundcraft desk into it ?

There is one possible suggestion. Some so-called 'balanced outs' don't have
'servo action' ( compensates for unbalanced load ). Early Mackies certainly
had this problem. When they drive an unbalanced input, this can cause
trouble. Sounds like the 'hot' leg may have been driving into ground as the
result of the unexpected pin hot change.

Graham

[Animix]

If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your mic
cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of phase.

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Animix]

If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your mic
cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of phase.

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Dave Martin]

"Animix" > wrote in message
...
> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
mic
> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
phase.

If the cable is wired the same on both ends, it shouldn't be.


--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Dave Martin]

"Animix" > wrote in message
...
> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
mic
> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
phase.

If the cable is wired the same on both ends, it shouldn't be.


--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Richard Crowley]

"Animix" wrote ...
> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
> mic
> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
> phase.

But Mr. Levitt was talking about in-n-out outboard processing
equipment. Unless the Dolby's output is inverted from it's input,
I agree that it shouldn't make any difference. Seems like only
semantics in this case.

[Richard Crowley]

"Animix" wrote ...
> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
> mic
> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
> phase.

But Mr. Levitt was talking about in-n-out outboard processing
equipment. Unless the Dolby's output is inverted from it's input,
I agree that it shouldn't make any difference. Seems like only
semantics in this case.

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |

What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and the
peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or predominantly)
one, typically upper half-period?

Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
asymmetrical waveform.

Predrag

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
> But then I know someone far more knowledgeable than I who had trouble
> yesterday in a live rig, where his Soundcraft board was going into some
> pin-3 EQs, and he was getting distortion at high levels until he put a
> phase inverter on the *outputs* (yes, the outputs) of that EQ. Putting
> one on the inputs doesn't matter. That one baffles me. Any theories?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |

What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and the
peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or predominantly)
one, typically upper half-period?

Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
asymmetrical waveform.

Predrag

Predrag

[Arny Krueger]

"Predrag Trpkov" > wrote in message

>
> What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
> the peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or
> predominantly) one, typically upper half-period?
>
> Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
> asymmetrical waveform.

If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice waves
causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.

[Arny Krueger]

"Predrag Trpkov" > wrote in message

>
> What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
> the peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or
> predominantly) one, typically upper half-period?
>
> Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
> asymmetrical waveform.

If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice waves
causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care?

Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
care and when you shouldn't?

Some old Dolby stuff had unbalanced outputs. If this is the case with
your gear, if Pin 3 is hot, Pin 2 might be colder than you think, like
with no signal on it. It might be grounded (connected to Pin 1) or it
might be floating in mid air.

Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
"straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
Pin-3-hot unit.

Confused yet?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care?

Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
care and when you shouldn't?

Some old Dolby stuff had unbalanced outputs. If this is the case with
your gear, if Pin 3 is hot, Pin 2 might be colder than you think, like
with no signal on it. It might be grounded (connected to Pin 1) or it
might be floating in mid air.

Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
"straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
Pin-3-hot unit.

Confused yet?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Richard Crowley > wrote:
>"Animix" wrote ...
>> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
>> mic
>> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
>> phase.
>
>But Mr. Levitt was talking about in-n-out outboard processing
>equipment. Unless the Dolby's output is inverted from it's input,
>I agree that it shouldn't make any difference. Seems like only
>semantics in this case.

UNLESS one of the inputs is asymmetric and one of the outputs is unbalanced
or otherwise has only one pin driven. I have a lot of unbalanced gear using
XLR connectors... and if only pin 3 is driven and only pin 2 is used on the
input side, there will be no audio.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Richard Crowley > wrote:
>"Animix" wrote ...
>> If your preamp is wired pin 2 hot, your mic is wired pin 2 hot and your
>> mic
>> cable is wired pin 3 hot, I'm thinking your signal is gonna be out of
>> phase.
>
>But Mr. Levitt was talking about in-n-out outboard processing
>equipment. Unless the Dolby's output is inverted from it's input,
>I agree that it shouldn't make any difference. Seems like only
>semantics in this case.

UNLESS one of the inputs is asymmetric and one of the outputs is unbalanced
or otherwise has only one pin driven. I have a lot of unbalanced gear using
XLR connectors... and if only pin 3 is driven and only pin 2 is used on the
input side, there will be no audio.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice waves
> causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.

It's not a matter of headroom (or at least is shouldn't be). But some
voices sound different when you invert the polarity. Sometimes for the
better, sometimes not. Same with drums, even "pure" drums with no
leakage to confuse the issue.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice waves
> causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.

It's not a matter of headroom (or at least is shouldn't be). But some
voices sound different when you invert the polarity. Sometimes for the
better, sometimes not. Same with drums, even "pure" drums with no
leakage to confuse the issue.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
> "straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
> be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
> inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
> have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
> Pin-3-hot unit.

But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
of the polarity.

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
> "straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
> be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
> inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
> have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
> Pin-3-hot unit.

But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
of the polarity.

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Predrag Trpkov" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
> > the peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or
> > predominantly) one, typically upper half-period?
> >
> > Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
> > asymmetrical waveform.
>
> If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice
waves
> causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.


That's right and, of course, should be avoided, generally. But in case of
certain limiters it's not a headroom issue. If for example:

1) you have a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
2) you have a limiter that by design predominantly limits the upper
(positive, above the axis) half of the wave, and
3) you happen to like the sonic signature of that "improper" limiting

well, then polarity of the signal could make a difference.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Predrag Trpkov" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > What if you're processing a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
> > the peace of gear acts like some limiters do, clipping only (or
> > predominantly) one, typically upper half-period?
> >
> > Those Dolbys do a lot of complex compression. Many voices have an
> > asymmetrical waveform.
>
> If you're running with so little headroom that the asymmetry of voice
waves
> causes a problem, you're not running with enough headroom.


That's right and, of course, should be avoided, generally. But in case of
certain limiters it's not a headroom issue. If for example:

1) you have a signal with an asymmetrical waveform and
2) you have a limiter that by design predominantly limits the upper
(positive, above the axis) half of the wave, and
3) you happen to like the sonic signature of that "improper" limiting

well, then polarity of the signal could make a difference.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> > Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
> > "straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
> > be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
> > inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
> > have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
> > Pin-3-hot unit.
>
> But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
> pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
> and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
> of the polarity.

Sure, only in the above described example the output won't be inverted.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> > Anyway, if it's a Pin-2-zilch (ground) output device and you connect it
> > "straight" to a contemporary differential Pin-2-hot input, you'll
> > be grounding Pin 2 and connecting the signal to Pin 3 which is an
> > inverting input. What comes out of the next device in the chain will
> > have the polarity inverted with respect to what went in to the
> > Pin-3-hot unit.
>
> But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
> pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
> and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
> of the polarity.

Sure, only in the above described example the output won't be inverted.

Predrag

[sodderboy]

If the outboard in question is transformer in and out, then you could
be OK. But even xfmr equipment should be changed to make everything
pin 2 hot, just like it is prudent to replace a non-grounded power
cord on some old guitar amp.
If equipment has electronic balancing, and is being connected to
unbalanced inserts, the input will be OK because the unbalanced signal
is connected to the two inputs of an op amp. An electronically
balanced output consists of a buffer opamp + out and a second inverter
amp for - out. If the + out is connected to ground, ie pin 3 hot
adapter cable to TS, there will be distortion or no signal out of the
-. That is what happpened to the EQ's in the live situation.
My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.

[sodderboy]

If the outboard in question is transformer in and out, then you could
be OK. But even xfmr equipment should be changed to make everything
pin 2 hot, just like it is prudent to replace a non-grounded power
cord on some old guitar amp.
If equipment has electronic balancing, and is being connected to
unbalanced inserts, the input will be OK because the unbalanced signal
is connected to the two inputs of an op amp. An electronically
balanced output consists of a buffer opamp + out and a second inverter
amp for - out. If the + out is connected to ground, ie pin 3 hot
adapter cable to TS, there will be distortion or no signal out of the
-. That is what happpened to the EQ's in the live situation.
My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.

[Kurt Albershardt]

sodderboy wrote:

> If the outboard in question is transformer in and out, then you could
> be OK. But even xfmr equipment should be changed to make everything
> pin 2 hot, just like it is prudent to replace a non-grounded power
> cord on some old guitar amp.

OK.



> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.

Why?

[Kurt Albershardt]

sodderboy wrote:

> If the outboard in question is transformer in and out, then you could
> be OK. But even xfmr equipment should be changed to make everything
> pin 2 hot, just like it is prudent to replace a non-grounded power
> cord on some old guitar amp.

OK.



> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.

Why?

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
>
>Why?

The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
all inputs differential.

Then strange unknown stuff added at the last minute causes the
minimum havoc.

Chris Hornbeck
"The Ancient World overlooked the invention of machines not through
stupidity nor through superficiality. It turned them into playthings
in order to avoid repugnance." - Hanns Sachs 1942

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
>
>Why?

The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
all inputs differential.

Then strange unknown stuff added at the last minute causes the
minimum havoc.

Chris Hornbeck
"The Ancient World overlooked the invention of machines not through
stupidity nor through superficiality. It turned them into playthings
in order to avoid repugnance." - Hanns Sachs 1942

[Kurt Albershardt]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
> wrote:
>
>
>>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
>>
>> Why?
>
>
> The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
> all inputs differential.

The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be transformers everywhere.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
> wrote:
>
>
>>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
>>
>> Why?
>
>
> The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
> all inputs differential.

The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be transformers everywhere.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:59:00 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

>> The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
>> all inputs differential.
>
>The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be transformers everywhere.

Quite right, but it wouldn't be The Cowboy Way.

Chris Hornbeck

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:59:00 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

>> The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
>> all inputs differential.
>
>The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be transformers everywhere.

Quite right, but it wouldn't be The Cowboy Way.

Chris Hornbeck

[Jay Kadis]

In article >, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> >
> > The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
> > all inputs differential.
>
> The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be
> transformers everywhere.
>
>
>

I like what Rane did (at least on the GE-30), where transformers are switchable.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >, Kurt Albershardt >
wrote:

> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700, Kurt Albershardt >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> My dream world is all outputs unbalanced, all inputs balanced.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> >
> > The best compatability would be all outputs impedance balanced,
> > all inputs differential.
>
> The best compatibility (but not necessarily the best quality) for me would be
> transformers everywhere.
>
>
>

I like what Rane did (at least on the GE-30), where transformers are switchable.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
> pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
> and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
> of the polarity.

Hey, I didn't say you had to do it wrong every time. You can always
screw it up and make it come out right.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> But if both the input and the output of the Dolby unit are
> pin-3-hot then the signal would be inverted on the way in
> and so inverting the output would result in a net preservation
> of the polarity.

Hey, I didn't say you had to do it wrong every time. You can always
screw it up and make it come out right.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> jay+newswrites:

> > I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> > pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> > 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.

> > And then I thought: Do I care?

> Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
> and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
> care and when you shouldn't?

There's a nice section in Sherman Keene's book, too, covering this
polarity thang and why and when it matters. If anyone cares.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> jay+newswrites:

> > I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> > pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> > 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.

> > And then I thought: Do I care?

> Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
> and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
> care and when you shouldn't?

There's a nice section in Sherman Keene's book, too, covering this
polarity thang and why and when it matters. If anyone cares.

--
ha

[Jay Levitt]

In article <znr1095644264k@trad>, says...
> Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
> and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
> care and when you shouldn't?

I care, Mike, you know I care...

I'll check it out at the library today :)

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Jay Levitt]

In article <znr1095644264k@trad>, says...
> Do you care enough to get the July 1999 issue of Recording Magazine
> and read my whole article about it which will tell you when you should
> care and when you shouldn't?

I care, Mike, you know I care...

I'll check it out at the library today :)

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[sodderboy]

My dream world accomidates my true wish- everything balanced
(preferably with xfmrs) and the cheapo world of mass manufacture-
everything unbalanced.

In the design, you would have to add but one resistor and change a TS
to TRS(which most topology uses and just shorts the ring to GND). A
balanced input requires the same one opamp, but a balanced out
requires a second inverter. Not much increase in cost when compared
to adding audio xfmrs.

You see, I have time to dream because I put myself out of the "get
this hum out of my home studio" business by recommending balanced
power units and redily purchased "ground loop isolators". Both
components using transformers.
"I love the smell of Hellerine Oil in the morning"

[sodderboy]

My dream world accomidates my true wish- everything balanced
(preferably with xfmrs) and the cheapo world of mass manufacture-
everything unbalanced.

In the design, you would have to add but one resistor and change a TS
to TRS(which most topology uses and just shorts the ring to GND). A
balanced input requires the same one opamp, but a balanced out
requires a second inverter. Not much increase in cost when compared
to adding audio xfmrs.

You see, I have time to dream because I put myself out of the "get
this hum out of my home studio" business by recommending balanced
power units and redily purchased "ground loop isolators". Both
components using transformers.
"I love the smell of Hellerine Oil in the morning"

[Jeff Chestek]

In article >,
Jay Levitt > wrote:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
One thing I didn't see in all the replies.....

If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
thus recorded on tape.

Not a problem if you're subsequently using your inverted polarity unit
to do the decoding.

But if you send your tapes to someone else (say a mastering house),
they'll play them back on a system that is presumably wired correctly,
and your master will play back inverted.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether that concerns you or not!

Jeff C.

--
Anti-Spam email address in effect.
My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being.

[Jeff Chestek]

In article >,
Jay Levitt > wrote:

> I recently got some old gear (yes, those Dolbys again) that are wired
> pin-3 hot. My studio, being composed of all recent-issue stuff, is pin-
> 2 hot, so I started making some cross-wired cables for input and output.
>
> And then I thought: Do I care? I should think not, since I'm going
> balanced in and balanced out. Unless the gear is doing something
> asymmetric with the signal, the fact that stuff is polarity-inverted
> going into gear, and then re-inverted on the way out, shouldn't matter
> at all. Right?
>
One thing I didn't see in all the replies.....

If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
thus recorded on tape.

Not a problem if you're subsequently using your inverted polarity unit
to do the decoding.

But if you send your tapes to someone else (say a mastering house),
they'll play them back on a system that is presumably wired correctly,
and your master will play back inverted.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether that concerns you or not!

Jeff C.

--
Anti-Spam email address in effect.
My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being.

[Pooh Bear]

Jeff Chestek wrote:

> If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
> tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
> them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
> thus recorded on tape.

No, because the pin reversal on the input is reversed back on the output, so
overall polarity is unaffected.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Jeff Chestek wrote:

> If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
> tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
> them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
> thus recorded on tape.

No, because the pin reversal on the input is reversed back on the output, so
overall polarity is unaffected.


Graham

[Jeff Chestek]

In article >,
Pooh Bear > wrote:

> Jeff Chestek wrote:
>
> > If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
> > tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
> > them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
> > thus recorded on tape.
>
> No, because the pin reversal on the input is reversed back on the output, so
> overall polarity is unaffected.
>
>
> Graham

My bad....my dyslexia flaring up again??

Jeff C.

--
Anti-Spam email address in effect.
My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being.

[Jeff Chestek]

In article >,
Pooh Bear > wrote:

> Jeff Chestek wrote:
>
> > If these Dolbys are meant for encode/decode noise reduction use with a
> > tape machine (I missed the original reference), then recording through
> > them will invert the polarity of the audio going into the machine, and
> > thus recorded on tape.
>
> No, because the pin reversal on the input is reversed back on the output, so
> overall polarity is unaffected.
>
>
> Graham

My bad....my dyslexia flaring up again??

Jeff C.

--
Anti-Spam email address in effect.
My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being.