Performer: Anyway to Glue Together a "Snip"?

[Gary Morrison]

Is there any way to glue back together a soundbite from which you have
"snip"ped out a fragment (other than bouncing it to disk)?

Alternatively, is there some way to group together, like graphical
objects in a graphics editor, the two soundbite pieces, so that I can
move them around as one single object?

I can't seem to find a way to do either, but perhaps I'm missing it.

I'm transferring from old cassettes a series of Ear-Training exercises I
recorded many years ago, so that I can practice in the car or on hiking
trails and such. Now that it's in Performer, I also have an opportunity
to snip out a few bad spots, such as where I got lost in my script
("uh... uh... where was I? ..."), or where I dictated a question wrong,
or stated a wrong answer for it. I'd like to be able glue the results
back into a single manageable soundbite.

Unfortunately, when I do a snip, I'm inherently creating a skip in the
raw sound file, so to rejoin them into a single soundbite, I'd have to
modify the sound-file content (or some sort of skip directive or
something like that), and best I can tell, Performer won't let you do that.

Thanks folks!

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[ScotFraser]

<< Is there any way to glue back together a soundbite from which you have
"snip"ped out a fragment (other than bouncing it to disk)?>>

Yes. Pull its edge horizontally & it will restore the original sound bite.

<<Alternatively, is there some way to group together, like graphical
objects in a graphics editor, the two soundbite pieces, so that I can
move them around as one single object?>>

Yes. You can merge them, or you can shift-click on both & they will both be
selected. As long as both are selected, they will move together.

<<I'm transferring from old cassettes a series of Ear-Training exercises I
recorded many years ago, so that I can practice in the car or on hiking
trails and such. Now that it's in Performer, I also have an opportunity
to snip out a few bad spots, such as where I got lost in my script
("uh... uh... where was I? ..."), or where I dictated a question wrong,
or stated a wrong answer for it. I'd like to be able glue the results
back into a single manageable soundbite.>>

Very easy, but I suspect you are cutting the unwanted parts with the delete
function, Command-X. You should use the snip function, Command-J, which will
remove the selected range & pull the following audio up to the edit point.

<<Unfortunately, when I do a snip, I'm inherently creating a skip in the
raw sound file,>>

No, edits in Digital Performer do not affect the raw sound file, only the sound
bite.

<< so to rejoin them into a single soundbite, I'd have to
modify the sound-file content (or some sort of skip directive or
something like that), and best I can tell, Performer won't let you do that.>>

It does exactly what you need. It sounds like you just need to familiarize
yourself with the many edit possibilities. The manual is rather daunting, but
it is very clear & detailed.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Is there any way to glue back together a soundbite from which you have
"snip"ped out a fragment (other than bouncing it to disk)?>>

Yes. Pull its edge horizontally & it will restore the original sound bite.

<<Alternatively, is there some way to group together, like graphical
objects in a graphics editor, the two soundbite pieces, so that I can
move them around as one single object?>>

Yes. You can merge them, or you can shift-click on both & they will both be
selected. As long as both are selected, they will move together.

<<I'm transferring from old cassettes a series of Ear-Training exercises I
recorded many years ago, so that I can practice in the car or on hiking
trails and such. Now that it's in Performer, I also have an opportunity
to snip out a few bad spots, such as where I got lost in my script
("uh... uh... where was I? ..."), or where I dictated a question wrong,
or stated a wrong answer for it. I'd like to be able glue the results
back into a single manageable soundbite.>>

Very easy, but I suspect you are cutting the unwanted parts with the delete
function, Command-X. You should use the snip function, Command-J, which will
remove the selected range & pull the following audio up to the edit point.

<<Unfortunately, when I do a snip, I'm inherently creating a skip in the
raw sound file,>>

No, edits in Digital Performer do not affect the raw sound file, only the sound
bite.

<< so to rejoin them into a single soundbite, I'd have to
modify the sound-file content (or some sort of skip directive or
something like that), and best I can tell, Performer won't let you do that.>>

It does exactly what you need. It sounds like you just need to familiarize
yourself with the many edit possibilities. The manual is rather daunting, but
it is very clear & detailed.


Scott Fraser

[Gary Morrison]

ScotFraser wrote:

> << Is there any way to glue back together a soundbite from which you have
> "snip"ped out a fragment (other than bouncing it to disk)?>>
> Yes. Pull its edge horizontally & it will restore the original sound bite.

Perhaps, in an effort to be brief, I didn't explain what I'm looking for
very well. If I followed what you're suggesting, moving the edge would,
in essence, entirely undo the snip.

Let me use an analogy with a word sentence, so imagine that the
manipulations I'm doing with text here are manipulations with the audio
of this spoken text.

Suppose I'm starting with, hypothetically ...
"Here is a sustained G on bassoon timbre; sing a minor tenth above it."

I decide that there's not much point in characterizing it as "sustained"
and as on "on bassoon timbre," so I snip them out. I get three
soundbites in sequence:
"Here is a" "G" "sing a minor tenth above it."

When I put the playback cursor before the "Here," it plays back as the
desired, "Here is a G; sing a minor tenth above it," but if I do
something like try to select and move part of it, or do file-based
plug-in processing to it, it will only act on a portion of it.

If I move the edge, I would be back to ... "re-exposing," for lack of a
better word ... some of the audio I'd clipped out.

>
>
> Yes. You can merge them, or you can shift-click on both & they will both be
> selected. As long as both are selected, they will move together.

Uhmm, selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object. A
grouping of this sort would be such that if I select and move one, I'd
inherently select and move the whole group. When you're zoomed out to
where you can see several 90-minute spans of audio, it's very difficult
to see some several-second snips to be able to select them. It's often
difficult to even notice that they've been pieced up into snips.

Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
"Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.) I remember that I
saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back (I got silence, as I
recall). I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up to point
out that it's busy merging them.

I'll try merge again, and just simply wait a while longer before I try
to play back the result.

>
>
> Very easy, but I suspect you are cutting the unwanted parts with the delete
> function, Command-X. You should use the snip function, Command-J, which will
> remove the selected range & pull the following audio up to the edit point.

Umm, no, I definitely am using snip.

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[Gary Morrison]

ScotFraser wrote:

> << Is there any way to glue back together a soundbite from which you have
> "snip"ped out a fragment (other than bouncing it to disk)?>>
> Yes. Pull its edge horizontally & it will restore the original sound bite.

Perhaps, in an effort to be brief, I didn't explain what I'm looking for
very well. If I followed what you're suggesting, moving the edge would,
in essence, entirely undo the snip.

Let me use an analogy with a word sentence, so imagine that the
manipulations I'm doing with text here are manipulations with the audio
of this spoken text.

Suppose I'm starting with, hypothetically ...
"Here is a sustained G on bassoon timbre; sing a minor tenth above it."

I decide that there's not much point in characterizing it as "sustained"
and as on "on bassoon timbre," so I snip them out. I get three
soundbites in sequence:
"Here is a" "G" "sing a minor tenth above it."

When I put the playback cursor before the "Here," it plays back as the
desired, "Here is a G; sing a minor tenth above it," but if I do
something like try to select and move part of it, or do file-based
plug-in processing to it, it will only act on a portion of it.

If I move the edge, I would be back to ... "re-exposing," for lack of a
better word ... some of the audio I'd clipped out.

>
>
> Yes. You can merge them, or you can shift-click on both & they will both be
> selected. As long as both are selected, they will move together.

Uhmm, selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object. A
grouping of this sort would be such that if I select and move one, I'd
inherently select and move the whole group. When you're zoomed out to
where you can see several 90-minute spans of audio, it's very difficult
to see some several-second snips to be able to select them. It's often
difficult to even notice that they've been pieced up into snips.

Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
"Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.) I remember that I
saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back (I got silence, as I
recall). I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up to point
out that it's busy merging them.

I'll try merge again, and just simply wait a while longer before I try
to play back the result.

>
>
> Very easy, but I suspect you are cutting the unwanted parts with the delete
> function, Command-X. You should use the snip function, Command-J, which will
> remove the selected range & pull the following audio up to the edit point.

Umm, no, I definitely am using snip.

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[Gary Morrison]

Gary Morrison wrote:

> Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
> "Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.)

Oh, no, I remember now: Merge and splice both don't operate on two
soundbites adjacent in time they operate upon a selected soundbite and
what's on the clipboard.

As I recall that, under Logic Audio, there was an easy way (and I think
it's called "merge") to create a new, combined soundbite and associated
sound file, for two soundbites. You select the two, do the merge menu
command, and it creates a new one. If there's any gap between them, it
puts silence into the resulting audio file for that gap, and if they
overlap, it mixes the two (or more).

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[Gary Morrison]

Gary Morrison wrote:

> Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
> "Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.)

Oh, no, I remember now: Merge and splice both don't operate on two
soundbites adjacent in time they operate upon a selected soundbite and
what's on the clipboard.

As I recall that, under Logic Audio, there was an easy way (and I think
it's called "merge") to create a new, combined soundbite and associated
sound file, for two soundbites. You select the two, do the merge menu
command, and it creates a new one. If there's any gap between them, it
puts silence into the resulting audio file for that gap, and if they
overlap, it mixes the two (or more).

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[Gary Morrison]

Ah, OK, I see what I'm looking for: It's called "Merge Soundbites" in
the Audio menu, not to be confused with "Merge" in the "Edit" menu.

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[Gary Morrison]

Ah, OK, I see what I'm looking for: It's called "Merge Soundbites" in
the Audio menu, not to be confused with "Merge" in the "Edit" menu.

--

(Preferably reply to the newsgroup, please. If you reply by Email, I
will sincerely try to receive your message, but it will probably get
buried in spam.)

[ScotFraser]

<< Suppose I'm starting with, hypothetically ...
"Here is a sustained G on bassoon timbre; sing a minor tenth above it."

I decide that there's not much point in characterizing it as "sustained"
and as on "on bassoon timbre," so I snip them out. I get three
soundbites in sequence:
"Here is a" "G" "sing a minor tenth above it."

When I put the playback cursor before the "Here," it plays back as the
desired, "Here is a G; sing a minor tenth above it," but if I do
something like try to select and move part of it, or do file-based
plug-in processing to it, it will only act on a portion of it.>>

Right, you have to group them together, since they are now separate.

<<If I move the edge, I would be back to ... "re-exposing," for lack of a
better word ... some of the audio I'd clipped out.>>

OK, I see what you're doing now. Ignore the edge edit suggestion, then. You
want to move the new shorter sentence as a unit. I would merge the 3 parts into
one new soundbite. Select all 3, go to the "Audio" menu & click on Merge. You
will now have one new soundbite comprising the entire edited sentence.

<<Uhmm, selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object.>>

Yes, it is, inasmuch as the 3 selected parts comprising the edited sentence
will all move together. They behave as a group only so long as they are all
simultaneously selected, i.e. until you deselect them or select something else.

<<A grouping of this sort would be such that if I select and move one, I'd
inherently select and move the whole group. When you're zoomed out to
where you can see several 90-minute spans of audio, it's very difficult
to see some several-second snips to be able to select them. It's often
difficult to even notice that they've been pieced up into snips.>>

Sure, you have to choose the zoom level that allows you to see what you're
working on. I'm consistently zooming in & out all the time when editing. It's
much easier to use the Command-> & Command-< (left or right arrows) than to
click on the zoom icons.

<<Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
"Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.) I remember that I
saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back (I got silence, as I
recall). I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up to point
out that it's busy merging them.
I'll try merge again, and just simply wait a while longer before I try
to play back the result.>>

When you select Merge, the selected range will gray out while DP processes the
new soundbite. The duration of the process is based on the length of the
selected range & the speed of your computer. On an average G4, the sentence
example above should take about 5 seconds. When you see the waveform restored
in the sequence editor it is ready to play back. Merge creates a new SDII file
in the Audio Files folder, & a new soundbite in the soundbite list. It also
removes all the soundbites underlying the new merge in that track, i.e. you
can't easily get at the parts that made the merge because they are no longer
underneath the new merged track. Thus if you think you might want to reconsider
your merging of edits, move the top layer over to another parallel track, merge
it & move it back, or do your merges on a parallel Duplicate Track.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Suppose I'm starting with, hypothetically ...
"Here is a sustained G on bassoon timbre; sing a minor tenth above it."

I decide that there's not much point in characterizing it as "sustained"
and as on "on bassoon timbre," so I snip them out. I get three
soundbites in sequence:
"Here is a" "G" "sing a minor tenth above it."

When I put the playback cursor before the "Here," it plays back as the
desired, "Here is a G; sing a minor tenth above it," but if I do
something like try to select and move part of it, or do file-based
plug-in processing to it, it will only act on a portion of it.>>

Right, you have to group them together, since they are now separate.

<<If I move the edge, I would be back to ... "re-exposing," for lack of a
better word ... some of the audio I'd clipped out.>>

OK, I see what you're doing now. Ignore the edge edit suggestion, then. You
want to move the new shorter sentence as a unit. I would merge the 3 parts into
one new soundbite. Select all 3, go to the "Audio" menu & click on Merge. You
will now have one new soundbite comprising the entire edited sentence.

<<Uhmm, selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object.>>

Yes, it is, inasmuch as the 3 selected parts comprising the edited sentence
will all move together. They behave as a group only so long as they are all
simultaneously selected, i.e. until you deselect them or select something else.

<<A grouping of this sort would be such that if I select and move one, I'd
inherently select and move the whole group. When you're zoomed out to
where you can see several 90-minute spans of audio, it's very difficult
to see some several-second snips to be able to select them. It's often
difficult to even notice that they've been pieced up into snips.>>

Sure, you have to choose the zoom level that allows you to see what you're
working on. I'm consistently zooming in & out all the time when editing. It's
much easier to use the Command-> & Command-< (left or right arrows) than to
click on the zoom icons.

<<Now lessee, merge... I'm trying to recall what happened when I tried to
"Merge" them. (I tried several such possibilities.) I remember that I
saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back (I got silence, as I
recall). I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up to point
out that it's busy merging them.
I'll try merge again, and just simply wait a while longer before I try
to play back the result.>>

When you select Merge, the selected range will gray out while DP processes the
new soundbite. The duration of the process is based on the length of the
selected range & the speed of your computer. On an average G4, the sentence
example above should take about 5 seconds. When you see the waveform restored
in the sequence editor it is ready to play back. Merge creates a new SDII file
in the Audio Files folder, & a new soundbite in the soundbite list. It also
removes all the soundbites underlying the new merge in that track, i.e. you
can't easily get at the parts that made the merge because they are no longer
underneath the new merged track. Thus if you think you might want to reconsider
your merging of edits, move the top layer over to another parallel track, merge
it & move it back, or do your merges on a parallel Duplicate Track.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Oh, no, I remember now: Merge and splice both don't operate on two
soundbites adjacent in time they operate upon a selected soundbite and
what's on the clipboard.>>

Not in DP.

<<As I recall that, under Logic Audio, there was an easy way (and I think
it's called "merge") to create a new, combined soundbite and associated
sound file, for two soundbites. You select the two, do the merge menu
command, and it creates a new one. If there's any gap between them, it
puts silence into the resulting audio file for that gap, and if they
overlap, it mixes the two (or more).>>

This describes the DP merge function.
Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Oh, no, I remember now: Merge and splice both don't operate on two
soundbites adjacent in time they operate upon a selected soundbite and
what's on the clipboard.>>

Not in DP.

<<As I recall that, under Logic Audio, there was an easy way (and I think
it's called "merge") to create a new, combined soundbite and associated
sound file, for two soundbites. You select the two, do the merge menu
command, and it creates a new one. If there's any gap between them, it
puts silence into the resulting audio file for that gap, and if they
overlap, it mixes the two (or more).>>

This describes the DP merge function.
Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Ah, OK, I see what I'm looking for: It's called "Merge Soundbites" in
the Audio menu, not to be confused with "Merge" in the "Edit" menu. >><BR><BR>

OK, you got it.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Ah, OK, I see what I'm looking for: It's called "Merge Soundbites" in
the Audio menu, not to be confused with "Merge" in the "Edit" menu. >><BR><BR>

OK, you got it.

Scott Fraser

[Jonathan Roberts]

Gary Morrison wrote:

> selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object.

You select a time range which includes both soundbites. Choose "merge
soundbites" from the Audio menu.

Such as: <piece 1> <piece 2>

Highlight the track starting before piece 1 and ending
after piece 2, then select "merge soundbites."

Of course, the two pieces have to be in the time relationship you want
-- if you leave a gap between the two the new merged bit will have
silence where the gap was.

> I remember that I
> saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back

Give it a moment.

> I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up

If your machine is fast enough and/or the combined length of the two
pieces is small enough you won't see that -- it will appear and vanish
so quickly you could miss it.

I use merge all the time, particularly with vocal and solo parts --
after editing all the takes together for the composite final I use
merge, beginning with a throwaway sound snip before the part comes in,
just to make sure my edited parts won't be accidentally thrown out of
time by an ill-placed click and drag -- Then I often re-title the result
something like "vocal from bar 3 onward" so that if it DOES end up out
of place, I can quickly put it back in place.

--
Jonathan Roberts * guitar, keyboards, vocals * North River Preservation
----------------------------------------------
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran

[Jonathan Roberts]

Gary Morrison wrote:

> selecting both not the same as grouping them as one object.

You select a time range which includes both soundbites. Choose "merge
soundbites" from the Audio menu.

Such as: <piece 1> <piece 2>

Highlight the track starting before piece 1 and ending
after piece 2, then select "merge soundbites."

Of course, the two pieces have to be in the time relationship you want
-- if you leave a gap between the two the new merged bit will have
silence where the gap was.

> I remember that I
> saw blank-looking audio, and it wouldn't play back

Give it a moment.

> I don't recall the "1 task to do" dialog popping up

If your machine is fast enough and/or the combined length of the two
pieces is small enough you won't see that -- it will appear and vanish
so quickly you could miss it.

I use merge all the time, particularly with vocal and solo parts --
after editing all the takes together for the composite final I use
merge, beginning with a throwaway sound snip before the part comes in,
just to make sure my edited parts won't be accidentally thrown out of
time by an ill-placed click and drag -- Then I often re-title the result
something like "vocal from bar 3 onward" so that if it DOES end up out
of place, I can quickly put it back in place.

--
Jonathan Roberts * guitar, keyboards, vocals * North River Preservation
----------------------------------------------
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran