A Piano Question

[Dave Martin]

Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't really
answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese versions.
Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
more'.

Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to be
pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).

If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Thanks,
--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Dave Martin > wrote:
>Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
>two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
>versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't really
>answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese versions.
>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.

Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few classical
works.

On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
implement the same sort of effect.

The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
anything.

>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).

In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am convinced
that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.

>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
aren't.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Dave Martin > wrote:
>Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
>two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
>versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't really
>answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese versions.
>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.

Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few classical
works.

On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
implement the same sort of effect.

The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
anything.

>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).

In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am convinced
that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.

>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
aren't.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[ScotFraser]

>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.>>

The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used effect
whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged are
sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really know how to
make much use of this pedal.
>
>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? >>

My understanding is that, unlike the C series, the CS pianos are handmade.

I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
>be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?">>

Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

>Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
>more'.>>

The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used effect
whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged are
sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really know how to
make much use of this pedal.
>
>Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
>Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? >>

My understanding is that, unlike the C series, the CS pianos are handmade.

I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
>be
>pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
>other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the 7'6"
>C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
>If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
>wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?">>

Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.

Scott Fraser

[agent86]

Scott Dorsey wrote:


> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
> down when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
> classical works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

Could this be a grand vs upright sort of difference? I've had my head
inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a
few years since I had my head inside ANY acoustic piano, so my memory's
kind of foggy. I seem to recall the point as being about an octave below
middle C.

[agent86]

Scott Dorsey wrote:


> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
> down when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
> classical works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

Could this be a grand vs upright sort of difference? I've had my head
inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a
few years since I had my head inside ANY acoustic piano, so my memory's
kind of foggy. I seem to recall the point as being about an octave below
middle C.

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(ScotFraser) wrote:

[snip]

>
> Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
> very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.
>
> Scott Fraser


For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(ScotFraser) wrote:

[snip]

>
> Ten or more years ago I wheedled a Yamaha dealer down to about $18,000 for a
> very specific C7. That's probably not an available deal anymore.
>
> Scott Fraser


For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Levitt]

In article >, says...
> I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.

I (well, my parents) had an old upright like that when I was little..
the piano teacher told me that pedal was for counting the beats.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Jay Levitt]

In article >, says...
> I have played a few pianos that had three pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.

I (well, my parents) had an old upright like that when I was little..
the piano teacher told me that pedal was for counting the beats.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Benjamin Maas]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.

This can be a really cool effect as some notes sustain and others don't. It
also means that you can hold down a chord in one range and as you play
around those notes, the harmonics make those strings vibrate even if you
don't play them.

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

You only see that on upright pianos. Grands usually do it the "correct" way
and uprights do it in the lower register. Has to do with the differences in
mechanical action between the two kinds of instruments.

--Ben

--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies

[Benjamin Maas]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.

This can be a really cool effect as some notes sustain and others don't. It
also means that you can hold down a chord in one range and as you play
around those notes, the harmonics make those strings vibrate even if you
don't play them.

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.

You only see that on upright pianos. Grands usually do it the "correct" way
and uprights do it in the lower register. Has to do with the differences in
mechanical action between the two kinds of instruments.

--Ben

--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies

[MarkSG]

"Dave Martin" > wrote in message
.net...
> Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
more'.

My C7 is a grey market from Japan, and it has 2 pedals.

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Buy a grey market piano from Japan.

Try Bob Barnes at the Piano Exchange in St. Petersburg, FL
(727) 463-7135

I've bought 2 C-7's from him with great results, for less than half the
going rate.
Both from 1965. sound fantastic (Patrick Moraz used mine in Orlando
for some recording when I lived there).

[MarkSG]

"Dave Martin" > wrote in message
.net...
> Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's 'one
more'.

My C7 is a grey market from Japan, and it has 2 pedals.

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

Buy a grey market piano from Japan.

Try Bob Barnes at the Piano Exchange in St. Petersburg, FL
(727) 463-7135

I've bought 2 C-7's from him with great results, for less than half the
going rate.
Both from 1965. sound fantastic (Patrick Moraz used mine in Orlando
for some recording when I lived there).

[Roger W. Norman]

Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Martin > wrote:
> >Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> >two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> >versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> >answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's
'one
> >more'.
>
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.
>
> The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
> and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three
pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.
>
> >Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
> >Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
be
> >pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
> >other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the
7'6"
> >C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
> In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
> don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
> just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
> great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
> tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am
convinced
> that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.
>
> >If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> >wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet
long?"
>
> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Martin > wrote:
> >Actually, two piano questions. First, does anyone know why there are both
> >two pedal and three pedal Yamaha C7's? I've been told that the 2 pedal
> >versions are gray market pianos imported from Japan, but that doesn't
really
> >answer the question of why there are only 2 pedals on the Japanese
versions.
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that there's
'one
> >more'.
>
> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held
down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
> of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few
classical
> works.
>
> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C). This is also
> not something you see used very often, but it's basically a cheaper way to
> implement the same sort of effect.
>
> The majority of pianos out there seem to skip the middle pedal completely
> and just have two pedals. I have played a few pianos that had three
pedals
> but the middle pedal was just for show and didn't actually connect up to
> anything.
>
> >Second, do any of the smart people on this newsgroup know anything abut
> >Yamaha's CS series of grand pianos? I've come across 2 or 3 that seem to
be
> >pretty darned good deals, but can't find out any information about them
> >other than the fact that they're 8'2" pianos (putting them between the
7'6"
> >C7 and the 9 foot CFIII).
>
> In Hawaii, they were great sounding pianos. Here on the east coast, they
> don't seem to sound as good. I don't know if that is a humidity thing or
> just the way people have them set up. But I have heard some of them sound
> great, and I have also been very impressed at the ability of a good piano
> tech to get a huge variety of sounds out of any good piano. I am
convinced
> that the piano setup is as important as the quality of the original piano.
>
> >If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> >wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet
long?"
>
> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

A 7 foot deal is something to contend with.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet long?"

A 7 foot deal is something to contend with.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Logan Shaw]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C).

On my piano, the highest note affected by the middle pedal is the D
below middle C. If memory serves, this is (perhaps not coincidentally),
also the lowest note that uses two strings instead of just one[1].

One other thing you'll notice from looking at my piano, at least,
is that two of the pedals are nice shiny brass and the other one is
really tarnished. But they're all made out of the same material,
so what does that tell you?

- Logan

[1] And also, again not coincidentally, also the note that goes out
of tune the fastest...

[Logan Shaw]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed

> On _some_ pianos, it is a bass damper pedal, where it sustains all of the
> notes below a certain point (I want to say below middle C).

On my piano, the highest note affected by the middle pedal is the D
below middle C. If memory serves, this is (perhaps not coincidentally),
also the lowest note that uses two strings instead of just one[1].

One other thing you'll notice from looking at my piano, at least,
is that two of the pedals are nice shiny brass and the other one is
really tarnished. But they're all made out of the same material,
so what does that tell you?

- Logan

[1] And also, again not coincidentally, also the note that goes out
of tune the fastest...

[Logan Shaw]

agent86 wrote:
> inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
> bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a

Well, the things it moves are called dampers, right? So maybe it's
named by what it actuates rather than the effect it achieves.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

agent86 wrote:
> inside more uprights than grands, & all I've seen use the middle pedal as a
> bass damper (why don't they call it an un-damper?). It's actually been a

Well, the things it moves are called dampers, right? So maybe it's
named by what it actuates rather than the effect it achieves.

- Logan

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.

What Scott said; I'm generally amazed by what my piano man has seen in
his travels between visits here. There are lots of excellent pianos out
there and a good tech knows which one's to consider.

I wanted to offload the chickering with the ampico A mechanism because
the damned roll box is right in the way of my skinny knees. But the best
players that come here rave about it and we decided to keep it. When I
told the tech that he smiled and said, "It's a great piano, Hank".

Duh. Maybe I'll have my legs shortened.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Find the best piano tech in town and ask him what he knows of for sale
> right now. He'll know what particular instruments are good and what
> aren't.

What Scott said; I'm generally amazed by what my piano man has seen in
his travels between visits here. There are lots of excellent pianos out
there and a good tech knows which one's to consider.

I wanted to offload the chickering with the ampico A mechanism because
the damned roll box is right in the way of my skinny knees. But the best
players that come here rave about it and we decided to keep it. When I
told the tech that he smiled and said, "It's a great piano, Hank".

Duh. Maybe I'll have my legs shortened.

--
ha

[Jonathan Roberts]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal.

I played a piano one time -- forget the manufacturer -- for which the
middle pedal raised a cloth curtain between the hammers and the strings.
Made for an interesting soft tone. Haven't seen that since.

--
Jonathan Roberts * guitar, keyboards, vocals * North River Preservation
----------------------------------------------
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran

[Jonathan Roberts]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal.

I played a piano one time -- forget the manufacturer -- for which the
middle pedal raised a cloth curtain between the hammers and the strings.
Made for an interesting soft tone. Haven't seen that since.

--
Jonathan Roberts * guitar, keyboards, vocals * North River Preservation
----------------------------------------------
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran

[Eric Agner]

Jay Kadis > wrote
> For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
> DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
> Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
> the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
> announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.
>
> -Jay

Um. I went to one of these sales several years ago at a conservatory,
and the smell of "scam" was thick. They were bringing in truckloads of
upright pianos of all sorts and setting them up in the school
represented as these "played only by conservatory students" deals. The
halls were lined with cheap digital pianos for the folks without much
cash. High pressure sales tactics. The whole thing just stank.

[Eric Agner]

Jay Kadis > wrote
> For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s and
> DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
> Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not sure if
> the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
> announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.
>
> -Jay

Um. I went to one of these sales several years ago at a conservatory,
and the smell of "scam" was thick. They were bringing in truckloads of
upright pianos of all sorts and setting them up in the school
represented as these "played only by conservatory students" deals. The
halls were lined with cheap digital pianos for the folks without much
cash. High pressure sales tactics. The whole thing just stank.

[Scott Dorsey]

Roger W. Norman > wrote:
>Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

No, but my piano teacher was really, really good. I was more interested in
what was inside the piano than how to play it, though.

She had a Bechstein upright with a real sostenuto pedal and it fascinated
me because I couldn't figure out what it was for. In the meantime I never
got good enough to play Fuer Elise all the way through. I still like pianos,
though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Roger W. Norman > wrote:
>Damn, you're good Scott! <g>

No, but my piano teacher was really, really good. I was more interested in
what was inside the piano than how to play it, though.

She had a Bechstein upright with a real sostenuto pedal and it fascinated
me because I couldn't figure out what it was for. In the meantime I never
got good enough to play Fuer Elise all the way through. I still like pianos,
though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nathan West]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).

On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
pedal to do that?


"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> On _most_ pianos with one, the
> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).

On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
pedal to do that?


"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Scott Dorsey]

Nathan West > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> On _most_ pianos with one, the
>> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
>> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
>> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).
>
>On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
>pedal to do that?

So you don't have to hold them all down so long. Otherwise you'd need
something like thirty fingers to play Satie's Gymnopedie because you'd
be holding everything down all the time. With this fancy technology,
you only need thirty fingers for the Rachmaninoff second.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Nathan West > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> On _most_ pianos with one, the
>> middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
>> when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
>> sustains all the notes while it's pressed).
>
>On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
>pedal to do that?

So you don't have to hold them all down so long. Otherwise you'd need
something like thirty fingers to play Satie's Gymnopedie because you'd
be holding everything down all the time. With this fancy technology,
you only need thirty fingers for the Rachmaninoff second.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[normanstrong]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that
there's 'one
> >more'.>>
>
> The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used
effect
> whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged
are
> sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really
know how to
> make much use of this pedal.

It's a great way to get a drone effect. Play a low octave, and hold
down the sostenuto pedal. You can now play normally and occasionally
repeat the drone octave for a continuous sound.

Norm Strong

[normanstrong]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> >Or why 3 pedals are better than two, other than the fact that
there's 'one
> >more'.>>
>
> The middle pedal is "sostenuto" a rarely understood & rarely used
effect
> whereby only those notes being held down when the pedal is engaged
are
> sustained. Most players (& composers for that matter) don't really
know how to
> make much use of this pedal.

It's a great way to get a drone effect. Play a low octave, and hold
down the sostenuto pedal. You can now play normally and occasionally
repeat the drone octave for a continuous sound.

Norm Strong

[hank alrich]

Nathan West wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > On _most_ pianos with one, the middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it
> > sustains only the notes that are held down when the pedal is pressed
> > (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which sustains all the notes while
> > it's pressed).

> On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would
> I want a pedal to do that?

So that those notes played will sustain when you move your fingers to
different keys, yet _all_ the strings won't be singing.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Nathan West wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > On _most_ pianos with one, the middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it
> > sustains only the notes that are held down when the pedal is pressed
> > (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which sustains all the notes while
> > it's pressed).

> On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would
> I want a pedal to do that?

So that those notes played will sustain when you move your fingers to
different keys, yet _all_ the strings won't be singing.

--
ha

[ScotFraser]

>For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan
>C7s and
>DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
>
>Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not
>sure if
>the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
>announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.>>

I've attended several of such college piano sales (not limited to Yamahas) &
generally found they were selling off a lot of small instruments from lesser
makers, lots of mediocre Kawais, etc, so be sure to get there early to see if
any real instruments are still available.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

>For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan
>C7s and
>DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
>
>Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not
>sure if
>the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
>announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.>>

I've attended several of such college piano sales (not limited to Yamahas) &
generally found they were selling off a lot of small instruments from lesser
makers, lots of mediocre Kawais, etc, so be sure to get there early to see if
any real instruments are still available.

Scott Fraser

[Nathan West]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> So you don't have to hold them all down so long. Otherwise you'd need
> something like thirty fingers to play Satie's Gymnopedie because you'd
> be holding everything down all the time.

My next door neighbor just got a baby grand. I understand it now. The pedal lets the
pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is pressed just those notes will
sustain and you can play many other notes on top of it...sort of like a crude tape
recorder with sound on sound.

> With this fancy technology,
> you only need thirty fingers for the Rachmaninoff second.

Fancy indeed...Rachmanifoff. My neighbor was playing some George Winston stuff that
utilizes the pedal for big giant sustained and augmented chords. Tricky to do.


--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> So you don't have to hold them all down so long. Otherwise you'd need
> something like thirty fingers to play Satie's Gymnopedie because you'd
> be holding everything down all the time.

My next door neighbor just got a baby grand. I understand it now. The pedal lets the
pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is pressed just those notes will
sustain and you can play many other notes on top of it...sort of like a crude tape
recorder with sound on sound.

> With this fancy technology,
> you only need thirty fingers for the Rachmaninoff second.

Fancy indeed...Rachmanifoff. My neighbor was playing some George Winston stuff that
utilizes the pedal for big giant sustained and augmented chords. Tricky to do.


--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

hank alrich wrote:

> So that those notes played will sustain when you move your fingers to
> different keys, yet _all_ the strings won't be singing.

I'm almost embarrassed to say I have never known that. Oh well I do now. My
next door neighbor just got a baby grand and he demonstrated some tunes using
the pedal. Pretty cool stuff.
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

hank alrich wrote:

> So that those notes played will sustain when you move your fingers to
> different keys, yet _all_ the strings won't be singing.

I'm almost embarrassed to say I have never known that. Oh well I do now. My
next door neighbor just got a baby grand and he demonstrated some tunes using
the pedal. Pretty cool stuff.
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[hank alrich]

Nathan West wrote:

> The pedal lets the pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is
> pressed just those notes will sustain and you can play many other notes on
> top of it...sort of like a crude tape recorder with sound on sound.

No hiss, no wow, no flutter. <g>

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Nathan West wrote:

> The pedal lets the pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is
> pressed just those notes will sustain and you can play many other notes on
> top of it...sort of like a crude tape recorder with sound on sound.

No hiss, no wow, no flutter. <g>

--
ha

[James Copland]

If memory serves rightly, the middle pedal was added in the late 19th
century to allow pianists to imitate an organ "pedal" (which is why
the mechanism is limited to the lower piano strings). The organist of
course has only to leave his foot on one of the pedals for it to
continue sounding forever. He then noodles away on the manuals. The
middle piano pedal is a substitute that will get you though several
bars without having to hit the key a second time. Transcriptions of
organ works for piano are the most common places to find examples.

[James Copland]

If memory serves rightly, the middle pedal was added in the late 19th
century to allow pianists to imitate an organ "pedal" (which is why
the mechanism is limited to the lower piano strings). The organist of
course has only to leave his foot on one of the pedals for it to
continue sounding forever. He then noodles away on the manuals. The
middle piano pedal is a substitute that will get you though several
bars without having to hit the key a second time. Transcriptions of
organ works for piano are the most common places to find examples.

[Logan Shaw]

hank alrich wrote:

> Nathan West wrote:

>>The pedal lets the pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is
>>pressed just those notes will sustain and you can play many other notes on
>>top of it...sort of like a crude tape recorder with sound on sound.

> No hiss, no wow, no flutter. <g>

Yes, but at least when the tape recorder is playing back a single
note, that one note won't be out of tune with itself...

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

hank alrich wrote:

> Nathan West wrote:

>>The pedal lets the pianist press a set of notes, and when the pedal is
>>pressed just those notes will sustain and you can play many other notes on
>>top of it...sort of like a crude tape recorder with sound on sound.

> No hiss, no wow, no flutter. <g>

Yes, but at least when the tape recorder is playing back a single
note, that one note won't be out of tune with itself...

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Chel van Gennip wrote:
> One pedal, a piano pedal, changing the mechanique, so one can play
> softer and still using all three strings. This is a typivcal Fazioli
> feature. This 4th pedal is not present very often.

Is it really that uncommon? I'd say that most uprights I've played
use that method of reducing the volume rather than shifting the
hammers laterally to strike only two strings. In fact, I have only
seen the shifting hammers feature on grands, but I haven't played
a huge number of pianos. (Or at least I haven't paid close attention
to what the pedals do on all of them.)

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Chel van Gennip wrote:
> One pedal, a piano pedal, changing the mechanique, so one can play
> softer and still using all three strings. This is a typivcal Fazioli
> feature. This 4th pedal is not present very often.

Is it really that uncommon? I'd say that most uprights I've played
use that method of reducing the volume rather than shifting the
hammers laterally to strike only two strings. In fact, I have only
seen the shifting hammers feature on grands, but I haven't played
a huge number of pianos. (Or at least I haven't paid close attention
to what the pedals do on all of them.)

- Logan

[Nathan West]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Yes, but at least when the tape recorder is playing back a single
> note, that one note won't be out of tune with itself...

Depends on how mis-aligned it is when you are getting print through from the
record head...he he.
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Yes, but at least when the tape recorder is playing back a single
> note, that one note won't be out of tune with itself...

Depends on how mis-aligned it is when you are getting print through from the
record head...he he.
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Laurence Payne]

On 10 Sep 2004 14:30:43 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Hardly anyone ever uses the middle pedal. On _most_ pianos with one, the
>middle pedal is a sostenuto, and it sustains only the notes that are held down
>when the pedal is pressed (unlike the right pedal, the damper, which
>sustains all the notes while it's pressed). This requires a whole lot
>of mechanical stuff to implement, and it is used only in very few classical
>works.


This is the "correct" function of the middle pedal. However, if you
include upright pianos as well, I think by FAR the most common
function of a middle pedal is to introduce a mute for low-volume
practice. The pedal, which latches, brings a felt strip between
hammers and strings.

In commercial premises you sometimes see the same mechanism used to
bring up metal strips for a jangle effect.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:29:58 GMT, Nathan West >
wrote:

>On my piano's all the notes I hold down sustain naturally....so why would I want a
>pedal to do that?

On your piano's what? :-)

Because you haven't got 88 fingers.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Nathan West]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> Because you haven't got 88 fingers.

A lot of woman have told me I do.
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Richard Kuschel]

The middle pedal on most grands and a few uprights ( have seen a 1924 Baldwin
and some Mason & Hamlin uprights with this) is called the sostenuto.

It works in the following manner. Play a chord, press the pedal. the chord will
be sustained and none of the other notes being played will sustain unless you
add the use of the right hand sustain pedal.

On other pianos, the middle pedal may only sustain all of the bass notes and
not the treble notes OR it may operate some other device such as the "practice
mode" that I have seen on some Kawai uprights.

The practice mode was enacted by pressing the middle pedal and then sliding the
pedal to the side.
The pedal then stayed down until released and moved it to its normal position.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Dave Martin]

Thanks, Guys - some excellent responses. But one of my original questions
still remains largely a mystery to me, and that's the specifics of the CS
series of Yamaha Grand pianos. Scott Fraser remembers them as being hand
made (unlike the C7) and Scott Dorsey remembers them as not sounding as good
on the east coast as they did in Hawaii (by the way, I agree that the setup
and maintenance is the single most important thing...), but until this
month, I'd never head of them at all.

Might anyone else have some more info about them?


--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Dave Martin]

"MarkSG" > wrote in message
...
>
> My C7 is a grey market from Japan, and it has 2 pedals.
>
> > If there's a third question, it would have to be, "Where can I get a
> > wonderfully great deal on a wonderfully great piano at least 7 feet
long?"
>
> Buy a grey market piano from Japan.
>
Next question - Yamaha's web pages (and those of several Yamaha dealers)
make a point that the woods are chosen and seasoned specifically for the US
market while the gray market pianos are not. Does this sound kinda like
marketspeech to y'all? After all, Tokyo's temperature and humidity is just
as unpleasant in the summertime as Manhattan's - why would the wood be
treated any different for different markets? (I could come closer to
understanding if they were talking about pianos built for Denver or built
for Florida, but they don't appear to be that specific - just the US versus
Japan...)

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[hank alrich]

Dave Martin wrote:

> Next question - Yamaha's web pages (and those of several Yamaha dealers)
> make a point that the woods are chosen and seasoned specifically for the US
> market while the gray market pianos are not. Does this sound kinda like
> marketspeech to y'all? After all, Tokyo's temperature and humidity is just
> as unpleasant in the summertime as Manhattan's - why would the wood be
> treated any different for different markets? (I could come closer to
> understanding if they were talking about pianos built for Denver or built
> for Florida, but they don't appear to be that specific - just the US versus
> Japan...)

I wonder if it's just that Yamaha thinks US buyers prefer a type of
voicing that is more easily achieved by using specific woods? Otherwise,
while pianos certainly do change their act when the climate changes, I'd
think many instruments are kept in pretty well regulated environments,
possibly somewhat negating the temp/humidity related shifts. That said,
it'd take some serious isolation here to put my room anywhere near a
room in Austin TXm, for example. I'd need to install lawn sprinklers on
the ceiling.

--
ha

[Mike Rivers]

In article .net> writes:

> Next question - Yamaha's web pages (and those of several Yamaha dealers)
> make a point that the woods are chosen and seasoned specifically for the US
> market while the gray market pianos are not. Does this sound kinda like
> marketspeech to y'all?

It sounds more like "don't buy gray market because . . . . " when they
really mean they don't want their legitimate dealers undercut.

I knew a few people who brought cheap 12-string guitars from Mexico
into the US back in early '60's because they wanted to look like Pete
Seeger and nobody in the US was making a 12-string. They sounded good
for the first few months and then fell apart. But occasionally someone
would hear of a good maker down there, buy a more sensibly priced
guitar from him, bring it into the US and it lasted as long as it
should.

I don't see any reason why Yamaha would use wood that wouldn't hold up
world wide. However, I could see them setting up the piano at the
fractory for the kind of sound that seems to be most popular in that
segment of the world. It might involve different gage strings or felt
of a different hardness - nothing that a local setup job couldn't fix,
but it makes it easier for dealers to sell to the typical customer who
will just put it in the living room and leave it alone for 20 years.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Bob Olhsson]

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
. ..
> I wonder if it's just that Yamaha thinks US buyers prefer a type of
> voicing that is more easily achieved by using specific woods?

I'm sure that's most of the story. The first Yamahas I ever encountered in
the early '70s were voiced really bright in a very strange way. By the '80s
the ones from the rental companies were pretty decent and really consistant
relative to any other brands.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Eric Agner) wrote:

> Jay Kadis > wrote
> > For the last several years, Yamaha has had a program in which they loan C7s
> > and
> > DC7s to universities and then sell them as used at the end of the year.
> > Stanford participated in the program as did some other schools. I'm not
> > sure if
> > the program is still going, but you might find radio and newspaper ads
> > announcing such sales if there is still such a program in your area.
> >
> > -Jay
>
> Um. I went to one of these sales several years ago at a conservatory,
> and the smell of "scam" was thick. They were bringing in truckloads of
> upright pianos of all sorts and setting them up in the school
> represented as these "played only by conservatory students" deals. The
> halls were lined with cheap digital pianos for the folks without much
> cash. High pressure sales tactics. The whole thing just stank.


Maybe, but someone got a great DC7 Disklavier we were using and hated to part
with. The Stanford sale is the coming weekend if anyone's interested.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Rob Reedijk]

ScotFraser > wrote:

> I've attended several of such college piano sales (not limited to Yamahas) &
> generally found they were selling off a lot of small instruments from lesser
> makers, lots of mediocre Kawais, etc, so be sure to get there early to see if
> any real instruments are still available.

These days it seems like there is one of these sales every couple of weeks.
At least, here in Toronto.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

ScotFraser > wrote:

> I've attended several of such college piano sales (not limited to Yamahas) &
> generally found they were selling off a lot of small instruments from lesser
> makers, lots of mediocre Kawais, etc, so be sure to get there early to see if
> any real instruments are still available.

These days it seems like there is one of these sales every couple of weeks.
At least, here in Toronto.

Rob R.

[Paul Gitlitz]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:47:37 +0200, Chel van Gennip
> wrote:

>One pedal is for soft, shifting the hamers so only 2 out of three strings
>are hit.

I am in the process of recording an 85 year old superb classical
player and I asked him why the keyboard seemed to be shifting. I
though I was seeing an optical illusion. He explained that he was
pressing the third pedal which I believe he called the una chorda this
is Italian for single string. He said the pedal shifts the hammers to
strike only one string. This both reduces volume and gives a different
texture to the sound.

[Paul Gitlitz]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:47:37 +0200, Chel van Gennip
> wrote:

>One pedal is for soft, shifting the hamers so only 2 out of three strings
>are hit.

I am in the process of recording an 85 year old superb classical
player and I asked him why the keyboard seemed to be shifting. I
though I was seeing an optical illusion. He explained that he was
pressing the third pedal which I believe he called the una chorda this
is Italian for single string. He said the pedal shifts the hammers to
strike only one string. This both reduces volume and gives a different
texture to the sound.