Phantom power

[Eddie]

Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG condensers
that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to turn phantom on/off
for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such as SM58 to plug into the
XLRs at the same time? Should I use TRS for non-phantom power mics alongside
the condensers? If using TRS then is there going to be a noticeable drop in
recording quality?

Thanks
Eddie

--
-----
Before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way when you criticise them you're a mile away and you have their
shoes.
-----

[Eddie]

Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Thanks
Eddie

"Eddie" > wrote in message
...
> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG
> condensers that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to turn
> phantom on/off for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such as SM58 to
> plug into the XLRs at the same time? Should I use TRS for non-phantom
> power mics alongside the condensers? If using TRS then is there going to
> be a noticeable drop in recording quality?
>
> Thanks
> Eddie
>
> --
> -----
> Before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes.
> That way when you criticise them you're a mile away and you have their
> shoes.
> -----
>
>

[Eddie]

Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Thanks
Eddie

"Eddie" > wrote in message
...
> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG
> condensers that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to turn
> phantom on/off for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such as SM58 to
> plug into the XLRs at the same time? Should I use TRS for non-phantom
> power mics alongside the condensers? If using TRS then is there going to
> be a noticeable drop in recording quality?
>
> Thanks
> Eddie
>
> --
> -----
> Before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes.
> That way when you criticise them you're a mile away and you have their
> shoes.
> -----
>
>

[Arny Krueger]

"Eddie" > wrote in message


> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG
> condensers that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to
> turn phantom on/off for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such
> as SM58 to plug into the XLRs at the same time?

Not in this life. Do you know how many 10,000s of SM58s are plugged into mic
jacks with phantom power active at this instant? Lots!

> Should I use TRS for
> non-phantom power mics alongside the condensers?

No way.

> If using TRS then is there going to be a noticeable drop in recording
> quality?

Irrelevant.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eddie" > wrote in message


> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG
> condensers that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to
> turn phantom on/off for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such
> as SM58 to plug into the XLRs at the same time?

Not in this life. Do you know how many 10,000s of SM58s are plugged into mic
jacks with phantom power active at this instant? Lots!

> Should I use TRS for
> non-phantom power mics alongside the condensers?

No way.

> If using TRS then is there going to be a noticeable drop in recording
> quality?

Irrelevant.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eddie" > wrote in message

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine
> with phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Not even ribbons will be damaged unless they are wired screwey.

Mics are supposed to be wired with no part of their internal signal wiring
grounded. Following this simple rule guarantees no damage from
phantom-powered inputs.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eddie" > wrote in message

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine
> with phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Not even ribbons will be damaged unless they are wired screwey.

Mics are supposed to be wired with no part of their internal signal wiring
grounded. Following this simple rule guarantees no damage from
phantom-powered inputs.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

That's the steady-state answer, but there's more. Try to avoid
plugging mics (of any type) in when phantom power is turned on. Plug
in your mics, then turn on the phantom power. If you want to change a
mic, turn off the phantom power, change the mic, then turn the power
back on. Also, pay attention to your cables. If one starts to develop
noises or crackles, get it out of there, take the connectors apart,
and look for broken or frayed wires. Repair or replace.

I know that many of the classic consoles were built with phantom power
on permanently (no switch at all) but back then, people were more
careful.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

That's the steady-state answer, but there's more. Try to avoid
plugging mics (of any type) in when phantom power is turned on. Plug
in your mics, then turn on the phantom power. If you want to change a
mic, turn off the phantom power, change the mic, then turn the power
back on. Also, pay attention to your cables. If one starts to develop
noises or crackles, get it out of there, take the connectors apart,
and look for broken or frayed wires. Repair or replace.

I know that many of the classic consoles were built with phantom power
on permanently (no switch at all) but back then, people were more
careful.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[David Satz]

Eddie wrote:

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Umm, "Animals breathe, but people don't" would make about as much sense as
that answer does; ribbons _are_ dynamic microphones.

You probably didn't get a reply sooner because [a] this question is very
common and is answered in the newsgroup's FAQ list (though someone should
probably have pointed that out to you), and [b] the complete answer to this
question has a bunch of "ifs" and "buts" attached. As a result people tend
to simplify the situation for themselves, one way or another.

In general phantom power won't harm dynamic microphones (including ribbons).
But there can be exceptions. And even if an exception is due to a miswired
cable, or a microphone with a weird, obsolete output circuit configuration,
or an intermittent connector, the damage tends to be expensive if it occurs,
and to happen at the worst possible time. You really want to avoid it even
though the odds are well in your favor.

So a lot of folks here are probably more careful than they need to be--
and as a result, no one has this type of accident very often, and everyone
goes on about their lives. Probably if people were less careful, there
would still be very few such accidents. There's no harm in being somewhat
careful anyway. But it's at least equally important to test and maintain
any microphone cables that are used for live recording, and doing so would
prevent most cases of possible damage to microphones from phantom powering
as well as other live recording/performance problems at the same time.

--best regards

PS: It's interesting how people deal with situations that have an extremely
low probability of occurring, yet would carry large consequences if they did
occur. State lotteries work precisely because people decide these issues
on an emotional rather than a rational basis. That lottery proceeds are
then used to fund educational systems (which, if they worked, people would
not want to buy lottery tickets so much) is a real mind-twister.

[David Satz]

Eddie wrote:

> Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Umm, "Animals breathe, but people don't" would make about as much sense as
that answer does; ribbons _are_ dynamic microphones.

You probably didn't get a reply sooner because [a] this question is very
common and is answered in the newsgroup's FAQ list (though someone should
probably have pointed that out to you), and [b] the complete answer to this
question has a bunch of "ifs" and "buts" attached. As a result people tend
to simplify the situation for themselves, one way or another.

In general phantom power won't harm dynamic microphones (including ribbons).
But there can be exceptions. And even if an exception is due to a miswired
cable, or a microphone with a weird, obsolete output circuit configuration,
or an intermittent connector, the damage tends to be expensive if it occurs,
and to happen at the worst possible time. You really want to avoid it even
though the odds are well in your favor.

So a lot of folks here are probably more careful than they need to be--
and as a result, no one has this type of accident very often, and everyone
goes on about their lives. Probably if people were less careful, there
would still be very few such accidents. There's no harm in being somewhat
careful anyway. But it's at least equally important to test and maintain
any microphone cables that are used for live recording, and doing so would
prevent most cases of possible damage to microphones from phantom powering
as well as other live recording/performance problems at the same time.

--best regards

PS: It's interesting how people deal with situations that have an extremely
low probability of occurring, yet would carry large consequences if they did
occur. State lotteries work precisely because people decide these issues
on an emotional rather than a rational basis. That lottery proceeds are
then used to fund educational systems (which, if they worked, people would
not want to buy lottery tickets so much) is a real mind-twister.

[Mike Rivers]

In article <znr1094821017k@trad> (that's me) writes:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> > phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Oops - I overlooked the last few words. There is no reason why ribbon
mics, in general, will be damaged when connected to inputs carrying
phantom power unless they are miswired. This applies to any mic, not
only ribbon mics, but damage to a ribbon mic is likely to cost more to
repair than damage to a traditional dynamic coil-and-diaphragm element.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <znr1094821017k@trad> (that's me) writes:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> > phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.

Oops - I overlooked the last few words. There is no reason why ribbon
mics, in general, will be damaged when connected to inputs carrying
phantom power unless they are miswired. This applies to any mic, not
only ribbon mics, but damage to a ribbon mic is likely to cost more to
repair than damage to a traditional dynamic coil-and-diaphragm element.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Pooh Bear]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> > phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.
>
> That's the steady-state answer, but there's more. Try to avoid
> plugging mics (of any type) in when phantom power is turned on. Plug
> in your mics, then turn on the phantom power. If you want to change a
> mic, turn off the phantom power, change the mic, then turn the power
> back on.

< snip >

Actually HOT *unplugging* of some condenser mics causes more trouble than
plugging them in. Those with internal transformers will generate a flyback
voltage pulse on removal of current that can fry unprotected input stages.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article > writes:
>
> > Sorry, just found the answer to my own question - dynamics are fine with
> > phantom power, ribbons will get damaged.
>
> That's the steady-state answer, but there's more. Try to avoid
> plugging mics (of any type) in when phantom power is turned on. Plug
> in your mics, then turn on the phantom power. If you want to change a
> mic, turn off the phantom power, change the mic, then turn the power
> back on.

< snip >

Actually HOT *unplugging* of some condenser mics causes more trouble than
plugging them in. Those with internal transformers will generate a flyback
voltage pulse on removal of current that can fry unprotected input stages.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Eddie wrote:

> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG condensers
> that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to turn phantom on/off
> for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such as SM58 to plug into the
> XLRs at the same time?

No.

> Should I use TRS for non-phantom power mics alongside
> the condensers?

The TRS *line inputs* ? Why would you use a line input for a mic ?

> If using TRS then is there going to be a noticeable drop in
> recording quality?

If it's a line input - there'll be a huge drop increase in noise.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Eddie wrote:

> Using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/adat unit, I run a bunch of AKG condensers
> that require phantom power. As there is only 1 button to turn phantom on/off
> for the whole unit, will it damage dynamics such as SM58 to plug into the
> XLRs at the same time?

No.

> Should I use TRS for non-phantom power mics alongside
> the condensers?

The TRS *line inputs* ? Why would you use a line input for a mic ?

> If using TRS then is there going to be a noticeable drop in
> recording quality?

If it's a line input - there'll be a huge drop increase in noise.


Graham

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Actually HOT *unplugging* of some condenser mics causes more trouble than
> plugging them in. Those with internal transformers will generate a flyback
> voltage pulse on removal of current that can fry unprotected input stages.

True. However I guess I'd better be careful to explain that "plugging"
means "doing something with the plug" and not just connecting it.

Most manufacturers have caught on and put clamping diodes on the
inputs where there might be a voltage transient resulting from
careless connecting, disconnecting, and (when running mic lines
through a jack panel) short-term shorting of things that shouldn't be
shorted.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Actually HOT *unplugging* of some condenser mics causes more trouble than
> plugging them in. Those with internal transformers will generate a flyback
> voltage pulse on removal of current that can fry unprotected input stages.

True. However I guess I'd better be careful to explain that "plugging"
means "doing something with the plug" and not just connecting it.

Most manufacturers have caught on and put clamping diodes on the
inputs where there might be a voltage transient resulting from
careless connecting, disconnecting, and (when running mic lines
through a jack panel) short-term shorting of things that shouldn't be
shorted.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Rob Reedijk]

David Satz > wrote:

> PS: It's interesting how people deal with situations that have an extremely
> low probability of occurring, yet would carry large consequences if they did
> occur. State lotteries work precisely because people decide these issues
> on an emotional rather than a rational basis. That lottery proceeds are
> then used to fund educational systems (which, if they worked, people would
> not want to buy lottery tickets so much) is a real mind-twister.

Lotteries are almost some sort of inversion insurance---regularly paying
out smaller amounts of money hoping that something good but highly
improbable will happen.. Insurance is the opposite---regularly paying
out smaller (but not always!) amounts of money hoping that something
bad but less likely will not happen. But then there are the people who
hope to collect on insurance....

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

David Satz > wrote:

> PS: It's interesting how people deal with situations that have an extremely
> low probability of occurring, yet would carry large consequences if they did
> occur. State lotteries work precisely because people decide these issues
> on an emotional rather than a rational basis. That lottery proceeds are
> then used to fund educational systems (which, if they worked, people would
> not want to buy lottery tickets so much) is a real mind-twister.

Lotteries are almost some sort of inversion insurance---regularly paying
out smaller amounts of money hoping that something good but highly
improbable will happen.. Insurance is the opposite---regularly paying
out smaller (but not always!) amounts of money hoping that something
bad but less likely will not happen. But then there are the people who
hope to collect on insurance....

Rob R.