Basic Cabling Question for Home Recording Studio

[Matt from Seattle]

Greetings, all:

My apologies if this newsgroup is too high-powered for a novice
question about home recording; I surfed around trying to find a more
appropriate forum for beginners, without much success. If anybody
knows a great place for home recording newbies like myself to compare
notes, I'd welcome any suggestions!

What I'm dealing with right now is a question of cabling. All I'm
trying to do is record some simple tunes using a Shure SM58 and a
Guild electric/acoustic guitar. I'm trying to run both the vocals and
guitar through a Behringer UB802 mixer and into my sound card.

Unfortunately, when I use my existing 1/4" cables, I'm getting a
pretty good hum coming through the system. Oddly, however, the moment
I physically touch the side of one of the plugs on these cables the
hum practically disappears. Is this a grounding issue of some kind?
Or a sign of a vastly inferior or damaged cable? It's gotten to where
I have to awkwardly hold my foot up and wrap my toes around the input
plug while I play if I want to get a decent sound; hardly an optimal
arrangement!

So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,
instead of the XLR-to-1/4" connector I use now? Secondly, should I
buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a likely resolution
to the "humming" problem? And should this be of the "balanced" or
"unbalanced" variety?

Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated!

[Phil Allison]

"Matt from Seattle"

>
> What I'm dealing with right now is a question of cabling. All I'm
> trying to do is record some simple tunes using a Shure SM58 and a
> Guild electric/acoustic guitar. I'm trying to run both the vocals and
> guitar through a Behringer UB802 mixer and into my sound card.
>
> Unfortunately, when I use my existing 1/4" cables, I'm getting a
> pretty good hum coming through the system. Oddly, however, the moment
> I physically touch the side of one of the plugs on these cables the
> hum practically disappears. Is this a grounding issue of some kind?


** The guitar is the problem - likely the bridge is not wired to the
earth of the electrics. It is essential that the strings of the guitar are
wired to ground - so that when you play the strings earth YOU.

Is the guitar a steel string acoustic with some kind of bug pickup fitted ?

If so, hum is a common problem.



> So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
> XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,

** No.

> Secondly, should I buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a
likely resolution
> to the "humming" problem?


** No.

And should this be of the "balanced" or
> "unbalanced" variety?


** All guitar leads are unbalanced.




......... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Matt from Seattle"

>
> What I'm dealing with right now is a question of cabling. All I'm
> trying to do is record some simple tunes using a Shure SM58 and a
> Guild electric/acoustic guitar. I'm trying to run both the vocals and
> guitar through a Behringer UB802 mixer and into my sound card.
>
> Unfortunately, when I use my existing 1/4" cables, I'm getting a
> pretty good hum coming through the system. Oddly, however, the moment
> I physically touch the side of one of the plugs on these cables the
> hum practically disappears. Is this a grounding issue of some kind?


** The guitar is the problem - likely the bridge is not wired to the
earth of the electrics. It is essential that the strings of the guitar are
wired to ground - so that when you play the strings earth YOU.

Is the guitar a steel string acoustic with some kind of bug pickup fitted ?

If so, hum is a common problem.



> So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
> XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,

** No.

> Secondly, should I buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a
likely resolution
> to the "humming" problem?


** No.

And should this be of the "balanced" or
> "unbalanced" variety?


** All guitar leads are unbalanced.




......... Phil

[Logan Shaw]

Matt from Seattle wrote:
> Unfortunately, when I use my existing 1/4" cables, I'm getting a
> pretty good hum coming through the system. Oddly, however, the moment
> I physically touch the side of one of the plugs on these cables the
> hum practically disappears. Is this a grounding issue of some kind?
> Or a sign of a vastly inferior or damaged cable? It's gotten to where
> I have to awkwardly hold my foot up and wrap my toes around the input
> plug while I play if I want to get a decent sound; hardly an optimal
> arrangement!
>
> So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
> XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,
> instead of the XLR-to-1/4" connector I use now? Secondly, should I
> buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a likely resolution
> to the "humming" problem? And should this be of the "balanced" or
> "unbalanced" variety?

First thing you should do is turn down everything but the microphone
and see if the hum is still there. Second thing you should do is turn
down everything but the guitar and see if the hum is still there.

Most likely it's your guitar, but that's not for sure.

As for cabling, unless the cable is defective, replacing your 1/4"
to 1/4" instrument cable with a higher-quality one isn't going to
make any difference as far as hum goes, as long as they are of the
same basic construction (and 1/4" instrument cables are pretty
simple).

As for the microphone, your XLR-to-1/4" cable is probably not
balanced. It is possible to build a 1/4" cable that carries a
balanced signal[1], but it is not usually done that way with
microphones and anyway I don't think most mixers' 1/4" channel
inputs are balanced inputs. Anyway, balanced is generally
better in that if there is noise external to the cable, the
balanced circuit will reject it. (In a balanced circuit, the
microphone or other sound source produces two signals that
are identical except for being opposite voltage, i.e. basically
one is positive when the other's negative. The input on the
mixer or whatever then presents two identical loads, one to
each "leg", and it reverses one of the two signals before it
adds them together. Since the two wires carrying opposite
signals run alongside each other, they pick up virtually the
same noise, and the balanced input cancels the noise out when
it inverts and adds.) So, balanced doesn't really sound
"better", but the one thing it does do is that it rejects noise
that might be picked up by the *cabling*.

Aaaanyway, not having a balanced cable on your microphone is
probably not the source of your hum. So it would be a good
idea to go with a balanced cable (which typically means XLR
on both ends), but it's unlikely to eliminate your hum problem.

If I were you, I'd do some experimentation. If you can borrow
other cables from a friend, that would be a good idea. You might
also want to make sure your equipment (particularly your mixer)
is plugged into a properly-grounded outlet. Also, listen to
your mixer's output with headphones or something when it's not
connected to your sound card.

- Logan

[1] The 1/4" phone plug will then have three contacts instead of
two on it. That's commonly called TRS, for Tip, Ring, and
Sleeve, which are the names of the three different contacts.

[Logan Shaw]

Matt from Seattle wrote:
> Unfortunately, when I use my existing 1/4" cables, I'm getting a
> pretty good hum coming through the system. Oddly, however, the moment
> I physically touch the side of one of the plugs on these cables the
> hum practically disappears. Is this a grounding issue of some kind?
> Or a sign of a vastly inferior or damaged cable? It's gotten to where
> I have to awkwardly hold my foot up and wrap my toes around the input
> plug while I play if I want to get a decent sound; hardly an optimal
> arrangement!
>
> So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
> XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,
> instead of the XLR-to-1/4" connector I use now? Secondly, should I
> buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a likely resolution
> to the "humming" problem? And should this be of the "balanced" or
> "unbalanced" variety?

First thing you should do is turn down everything but the microphone
and see if the hum is still there. Second thing you should do is turn
down everything but the guitar and see if the hum is still there.

Most likely it's your guitar, but that's not for sure.

As for cabling, unless the cable is defective, replacing your 1/4"
to 1/4" instrument cable with a higher-quality one isn't going to
make any difference as far as hum goes, as long as they are of the
same basic construction (and 1/4" instrument cables are pretty
simple).

As for the microphone, your XLR-to-1/4" cable is probably not
balanced. It is possible to build a 1/4" cable that carries a
balanced signal[1], but it is not usually done that way with
microphones and anyway I don't think most mixers' 1/4" channel
inputs are balanced inputs. Anyway, balanced is generally
better in that if there is noise external to the cable, the
balanced circuit will reject it. (In a balanced circuit, the
microphone or other sound source produces two signals that
are identical except for being opposite voltage, i.e. basically
one is positive when the other's negative. The input on the
mixer or whatever then presents two identical loads, one to
each "leg", and it reverses one of the two signals before it
adds them together. Since the two wires carrying opposite
signals run alongside each other, they pick up virtually the
same noise, and the balanced input cancels the noise out when
it inverts and adds.) So, balanced doesn't really sound
"better", but the one thing it does do is that it rejects noise
that might be picked up by the *cabling*.

Aaaanyway, not having a balanced cable on your microphone is
probably not the source of your hum. So it would be a good
idea to go with a balanced cable (which typically means XLR
on both ends), but it's unlikely to eliminate your hum problem.

If I were you, I'd do some experimentation. If you can borrow
other cables from a friend, that would be a good idea. You might
also want to make sure your equipment (particularly your mixer)
is plugged into a properly-grounded outlet. Also, listen to
your mixer's output with headphones or something when it's not
connected to your sound card.

- Logan

[1] The 1/4" phone plug will then have three contacts instead of
two on it. That's commonly called TRS, for Tip, Ring, and
Sleeve, which are the names of the three different contacts.

[Laurence Payne]

>
>So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
>XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,
>instead of the XLR-to-1/4" connector I use now? Secondly, should I
>buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a likely resolution
>to the "humming" problem? And should this be of the "balanced" or
>"unbalanced" variety?
>

You have two XLR microphone inputs on your Behringer. Use them.

The hum is almost certainly your guitar. Does it occur when the
guitar is NOT plugged in to the mixer? You need a correctly wired
undamaged lead. You don't need an expensive one. The output isn't
balanced, so a balanced cable is unnecessary.

What sort of guitar? What pickup?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

>
>So I'm wondering a couple of things. First of all, would using an
>XLR-to-XLR connection from my microphone produce a better sound,
>instead of the XLR-to-1/4" connector I use now? Secondly, should I
>buy a premium 1/4"-to-1/4" cable for my guitar as a likely resolution
>to the "humming" problem? And should this be of the "balanced" or
>"unbalanced" variety?
>

You have two XLR microphone inputs on your Behringer. Use them.

The hum is almost certainly your guitar. Does it occur when the
guitar is NOT plugged in to the mixer? You need a correctly wired
undamaged lead. You don't need an expensive one. The output isn't
balanced, so a balanced cable is unnecessary.

What sort of guitar? What pickup?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[killermike]

Matt from Seattle wrote:

> Greetings, all:

[snip]

> appropriate forum for beginners, without much success. If anybody
> knows a great place for home recording newbies like myself to compare
> notes, I'd welcome any suggestions!

Sounds like a description of alt.music.home-studio. It's on google. See
you there :-)

--
***My real address is m/ike at u/nmusic d/ot co dot u/k (removing /s)
np:
http://www.unmusic.co.uk
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/Top_50_Films.html - favorite films
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/amh-s.html - alt.music.home-studio

[killermike]

Matt from Seattle wrote:

> Greetings, all:

[snip]

> appropriate forum for beginners, without much success. If anybody
> knows a great place for home recording newbies like myself to compare
> notes, I'd welcome any suggestions!

Sounds like a description of alt.music.home-studio. It's on google. See
you there :-)

--
***My real address is m/ike at u/nmusic d/ot co dot u/k (removing /s)
np:
http://www.unmusic.co.uk
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/Top_50_Films.html - favorite films
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/amh-s.html - alt.music.home-studio

[Matt from Seattle]

Laurence Payne > wrote in message >...

> You have two XLR microphone inputs on your Behringer. Use them.

Sounds like that's the consensus on the microphone inputs; I'll switch
to a pure XLR setup, just for the improved connection mechanism even
if I can't tell a major difference in the sound quality.

> The hum is almost certainly your guitar. Does it occur when the
> guitar is NOT plugged in to the mixer? You need a correctly wired
> undamaged lead. You don't need an expensive one. The output isn't
> balanced, so a balanced cable is unnecessary.
>
> What sort of guitar? What pickup?

I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
good" cable.

So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?
I've had the guitar for years, and barely used it, so I'd be surprised
if there was actual damage to the instrument in any way.

Any further suggestions would be appreciated -- you (and your
colleagues) on this board has already been a great help in diagnosing
the problem...

[Matt from Seattle]

Laurence Payne > wrote in message >...

> You have two XLR microphone inputs on your Behringer. Use them.

Sounds like that's the consensus on the microphone inputs; I'll switch
to a pure XLR setup, just for the improved connection mechanism even
if I can't tell a major difference in the sound quality.

> The hum is almost certainly your guitar. Does it occur when the
> guitar is NOT plugged in to the mixer? You need a correctly wired
> undamaged lead. You don't need an expensive one. The output isn't
> balanced, so a balanced cable is unnecessary.
>
> What sort of guitar? What pickup?

I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
good" cable.

So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?
I've had the guitar for years, and barely used it, so I'd be surprised
if there was actual damage to the instrument in any way.

Any further suggestions would be appreciated -- you (and your
colleagues) on this board has already been a great help in diagnosing
the problem...

[Phil Allison]

"Matt from Seattle"
>
> I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
> not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
> directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
> touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
> the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
> pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
> any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
> pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
> that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
> good" cable.
>
> So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
> might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?


** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!

Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.



............... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Matt from Seattle"
>
> I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
> not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
> directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
> touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
> the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
> pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
> any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
> pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
> that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
> good" cable.
>
> So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
> might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?


** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!

Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.



............... Phil

[Logan Shaw]

Matt from Seattle wrote:
> I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
> not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
> directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
> touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
> the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
> pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
> any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
> pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
> that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
> good" cable.
>
> So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
> might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?
> I've had the guitar for years, and barely used it, so I'd be surprised
> if there was actual damage to the instrument in any way.

Well, as luck would have it, I have a 9 or 10 year old Guild F4CE-NT,
so I just tried it with my cheap Epiphone practice bass amp and a
cheap Guitar Center cable I have that I would guess is maybe 15 or 20
feet long. Cranked everything up as much as I could (having to
vigorously mute the strings to avoid feedback, actually), and basically
no hum. Well, there is just a little, but that occurs even if I have
nothing plugged into the amp's input. As I said, it's a cheap amp.

However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
connection. I plugged the bass amp into the wall with that thing.
With it, I get a noticeable hum. Not atrocious, but still definitely
there.

So I guess the only information I have is that a Guild F4CE guitar
shouldn't normally have a hum problem. That doesn't necessarily mean
your guitar's pickup is bad. Have you checked to ensure you have a
good ground on the outlet your mixer is plugged into? You could
try moving the mixer to a different outlet or a different circuit,
or even a different house if that's convenient.

Another totally different idea is to just not record with the built-in
pickup. Pickups usually sound OK but not great. Supposedly these
days you can buy basically decent condenser mics for pretty cheap,
so you might be able to get a cheap instrument mic and just use that.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Matt from Seattle wrote:
> I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
> not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
> directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable. And still, as soon as I
> touch one of the plugs, the hum virtually disappears. The model of
> the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
> pickup that came originally with the guitar when I bought it. I don't
> any specific make or model information on the pickup unit that I can
> pass along. I did try switching cables, however, just to make sure
> that wasn't the problem, and I got the same hum with another "known
> good" cable.
>
> So assuming it's some malfunction with the guitar, is there anything I
> might be able to do to fix it or is this a job for the repair shop?
> I've had the guitar for years, and barely used it, so I'd be surprised
> if there was actual damage to the instrument in any way.

Well, as luck would have it, I have a 9 or 10 year old Guild F4CE-NT,
so I just tried it with my cheap Epiphone practice bass amp and a
cheap Guitar Center cable I have that I would guess is maybe 15 or 20
feet long. Cranked everything up as much as I could (having to
vigorously mute the strings to avoid feedback, actually), and basically
no hum. Well, there is just a little, but that occurs even if I have
nothing plugged into the amp's input. As I said, it's a cheap amp.

However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
connection. I plugged the bass amp into the wall with that thing.
With it, I get a noticeable hum. Not atrocious, but still definitely
there.

So I guess the only information I have is that a Guild F4CE guitar
shouldn't normally have a hum problem. That doesn't necessarily mean
your guitar's pickup is bad. Have you checked to ensure you have a
good ground on the outlet your mixer is plugged into? You could
try moving the mixer to a different outlet or a different circuit,
or even a different house if that's convenient.

Another totally different idea is to just not record with the built-in
pickup. Pickups usually sound OK but not great. Supposedly these
days you can buy basically decent condenser mics for pretty cheap,
so you might be able to get a cheap instrument mic and just use that.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Matt from Seattle"

>>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in

> ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
>
> Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.

Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE, so one would assume
that is the normal state for such guitars. And yet, mine does not
hum, so does it really seem that having ungrounded strings would
be the problem?

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Matt from Seattle"

>>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in

> ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
>
> Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.

Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE, so one would assume
that is the normal state for such guitars. And yet, mine does not
hum, so does it really seem that having ungrounded strings would
be the problem?

- Logan

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > "Matt from Seattle"
>
> >>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
>
> ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> >
> > Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.
>
> Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?


** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.


> I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
> ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE, so one would assume
> that is the normal state for such guitars.


** One example proves nought about others.


> And yet, mine does not
> hum, so does it really seem that having ungrounded strings would
> be the problem?


** Did you read the OP at all ????

The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!

Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.




........... Phil





>
> - Logan

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > "Matt from Seattle"
>
> >>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
>
> ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> >
> > Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.
>
> Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?


** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.


> I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
> ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE, so one would assume
> that is the normal state for such guitars.


** One example proves nought about others.


> And yet, mine does not
> hum, so does it really seem that having ungrounded strings would
> be the problem?


** Did you read the OP at all ????

The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!

Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.




........... Phil





>
> - Logan

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
> I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
> ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE

If it has a wooden top and a wooden bridge, there is no ground
connection to the strings. Electric guitars typically have a metal
bridge or tail piece assembly that holds the ball end of the string,
and that's usually connected to the shield terminal of the jack.

I don't kno why electric guitars don't hum more than they do, but some
of them are actually pretty quiet.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
> I just verified with a multimeter that there is no connection between
> ground and the strings on my own Guild F4CE

If it has a wooden top and a wooden bridge, there is no ground
connection to the strings. Electric guitars typically have a metal
bridge or tail piece assembly that holds the ball end of the string,
and that's usually connected to the shield terminal of the jack.

I don't kno why electric guitars don't hum more than they do, but some
of them are actually pretty quiet.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"

>
> I don't kno why electric guitars don't hum more than they do, but some
> of them are actually pretty quiet.


** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:

" Hum bucking pickups" .



I expect to see them again real soon - from you.

Pretending they are yours.




.......... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"

>
> I don't kno why electric guitars don't hum more than they do, but some
> of them are actually pretty quiet.


** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:

" Hum bucking pickups" .



I expect to see them again real soon - from you.

Pretending they are yours.




.......... Phil

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Logan Shaw"
>
>>Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Matt from Seattle"
>>
>>>>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
>>
> > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
>
>>> Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.
>>
>>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?

> ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

Anyway, my point is that neither a guitar shop nor he nor anyone else
can fix the guitar, because the guitar is not broken. It is working
as designed.

> ** Did you read the OP at all ????
>
> The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!

Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
that this connector is actually connected to any ground.

> Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.

That would only affect the hum while he's touching the strings.
I personally find that effect not much better than just having the
hum all the time. What happens when you play a couple of harmonics
and leave all the strings open? You have to take your fingers off
the strings, and then the hum comes back.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Logan Shaw"
>
>>Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Matt from Seattle"
>>
>>>>the guitar is a Guild F4CE-NTHR and I'm simply using the built-in
>>
> > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
>
>>> Take it to a guitar shop if you cannot fix it yourself.
>>
>>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?

> ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

Anyway, my point is that neither a guitar shop nor he nor anyone else
can fix the guitar, because the guitar is not broken. It is working
as designed.

> ** Did you read the OP at all ????
>
> The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!

Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
that this connector is actually connected to any ground.

> Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.

That would only affect the hum while he's touching the strings.
I personally find that effect not much better than just having the
hum all the time. What happens when you play a couple of harmonics
and leave all the strings open? You have to take your fingers off
the strings, and then the hum comes back.

- Logan

[Matt from Seattle]

(snip)

> So I guess the only information I have is that a Guild F4CE guitar
> shouldn't normally have a hum problem. That doesn't necessarily mean
> your guitar's pickup is bad. Have you checked to ensure you have a
> good ground on the outlet your mixer is plugged into? You could
> try moving the mixer to a different outlet or a different circuit,
> or even a different house if that's convenient.

Thanks for all of your advice, Logan and Phil.

Having tried the guitar in another outlet, and still gotten the hum,
it sounds like Phil's original diagnosis of the strings not being
"earthed" is likely the source of the problem. At this stage, since
I'm not very handy about these types of electrical issues -- and am
not really sure what "earthed" means, even -- I'll have to take the
unit into a guitar store and see if they can make the needed
adjustments.

I've thought about using a condenser mike to record some guitar
tracks, instead of an actual pickup, but the pickup setup is obviously
a lot more convenient and I don't have the $$$ for a decent condenser.
I'd also prefer to have a fully functional guitar since it's a pretty
nice instrument and it would bother me knowing that it's got an
internal malfunction.

If you have any other final thoughts, pass 'em along. Otherwise, I'll
probably be hitting the repair shop in a couple of days...

[Matt from Seattle]

(snip)

> So I guess the only information I have is that a Guild F4CE guitar
> shouldn't normally have a hum problem. That doesn't necessarily mean
> your guitar's pickup is bad. Have you checked to ensure you have a
> good ground on the outlet your mixer is plugged into? You could
> try moving the mixer to a different outlet or a different circuit,
> or even a different house if that's convenient.

Thanks for all of your advice, Logan and Phil.

Having tried the guitar in another outlet, and still gotten the hum,
it sounds like Phil's original diagnosis of the strings not being
"earthed" is likely the source of the problem. At this stage, since
I'm not very handy about these types of electrical issues -- and am
not really sure what "earthed" means, even -- I'll have to take the
unit into a guitar store and see if they can make the needed
adjustments.

I've thought about using a condenser mike to record some guitar
tracks, instead of an actual pickup, but the pickup setup is obviously
a lot more convenient and I don't have the $$$ for a decent condenser.
I'd also prefer to have a fully functional guitar since it's a pretty
nice instrument and it would bother me knowing that it's got an
internal malfunction.

If you have any other final thoughts, pass 'em along. Otherwise, I'll
probably be hitting the repair shop in a couple of days...

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Phil Allison wrote:
[stuff totally irrelevant to the point snipped]
> > > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

You were talking to the master of red herrings here. He'll say
anything remotelly related to the subject that's correct just so he'll
be right and you can't arugue that he's wrong. But you can ignore what
he says most of the time since it ill be irrelevant to the point that
people in a discussion are trying to understand.

I was going to offer an explanation for what's happening but it
would just turn into another string of insults from Phil. This is is his
thread now. Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
the ticket for sure.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Phil Allison wrote:
[stuff totally irrelevant to the point snipped]
> > > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

You were talking to the master of red herrings here. He'll say
anything remotelly related to the subject that's correct just so he'll
be right and you can't arugue that he's wrong. But you can ignore what
he says most of the time since it ill be irrelevant to the point that
people in a discussion are trying to understand.

I was going to offer an explanation for what's happening but it
would just turn into another string of insults from Phil. This is is his
thread now. Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
the ticket for sure.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
Phil Allison wrote:

> >>
> >>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
>
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?


** Bull**** - it is an "electric" guitar.

It has a pickup - it is being used with an amplifier - so it is an
electric guitar.



> Anyway, my point is that neither a guitar shop nor he nor anyone else
> can fix the guitar, because the guitar is not broken. It is working
> as designed.


** The OP's one hums, that is a fixable fault - you imbecile.


>
> > ** Did you read the OP at all ????
> >
> > The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!
>
> Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
> cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
> that this connector is actually connected to any ground.


** Of course it is ground - you imbecile.

Grounding his body is what stops the hum since it prevents AC electric
field injecting into the pickup and wiring of the guitar.



> > Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.
>
> That would only affect the hum while he's touching the strings.


** Guitarists tend to do that.




............. Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
Phil Allison wrote:

> >>
> >>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
>
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?


** Bull**** - it is an "electric" guitar.

It has a pickup - it is being used with an amplifier - so it is an
electric guitar.



> Anyway, my point is that neither a guitar shop nor he nor anyone else
> can fix the guitar, because the guitar is not broken. It is working
> as designed.


** The OP's one hums, that is a fixable fault - you imbecile.


>
> > ** Did you read the OP at all ????
> >
> > The hum goes away when the OP touches ground !!!!!
>
> Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
> cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
> that this connector is actually connected to any ground.


** Of course it is ground - you imbecile.

Grounding his body is what stops the hum since it prevents AC electric
field injecting into the pickup and wiring of the guitar.



> > Earthed strings will do that for him automatically.
>
> That would only affect the hum while he's touching the strings.


** Guitarists tend to do that.




............. Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"
>
> > Phil Allison wrote:

> > > > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> > > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> > Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> > an acoustic guitar and not an electric?
>
> You were talking to the master of red herrings here.


** What a desperate liar you are - Mike.

Smelly red fish are your staple diet.

Plus parrot food.




........... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"
>
> > Phil Allison wrote:

> > > > ** The STRINGS ARE NOT EARTHED !!!!!!
> > > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> > Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> > an acoustic guitar and not an electric?
>
> You were talking to the master of red herrings here.


** What a desperate liar you are - Mike.

Smelly red fish are your staple diet.

Plus parrot food.




........... Phil

[Pooh Bear]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > "Logan Shaw"
> >
> >>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
>
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

The OP referred to his guitar as a "Guild electric/acoustic guitar".

I assume that means an electric guitar with a voice box rather than a solid
body type - and *not* an acoustic guitar with an added pickup.

< snip >

> Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
> cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
> that this connector is actually connected to any ground.

If nothing else ( e.g. with Class II isolated equipment ) , it's connected
to 'electronics ground'.

This is the clue.

If the guitarist is grounded the problem goes away.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > "Logan Shaw"
> >
> >>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?
>
> > ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.
>
> Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
> an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

The OP referred to his guitar as a "Guild electric/acoustic guitar".

I assume that means an electric guitar with a voice box rather than a solid
body type - and *not* an acoustic guitar with an added pickup.

< snip >

> Actually, the hum goes away when the OP touches the connector on the
> cable (or the mixer? some connector...). It has not yet been verified
> that this connector is actually connected to any ground.

If nothing else ( e.g. with Class II isolated equipment ) , it's connected
to 'electronics ground'.

This is the clue.

If the guitarist is grounded the problem goes away.


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
> that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
> has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
> connection.

Do you have good life insurance ? Do your gigging friends have good life
insurance ?

The ground connection isn't there just to look pretty ( nor to be snapped
off ).

If you read the manual or back panel - expect to see a notice saying
something like "this equipment must be grounded".

There's a good reason for that.


Graham.

p.s. some equipment doesn't need grounding - but instead has to be
manufactured to much higher levels of shock protection and insulation to
meet safety regulations - don't assume all gear is the same.

Lifting an earth ( especially cutting a ground lug ) to cure hum is a sure
sign of possible trouble coming your way.

[Pooh Bear]

Logan Shaw wrote:

> However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
> that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
> has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
> connection.

Do you have good life insurance ? Do your gigging friends have good life
insurance ?

The ground connection isn't there just to look pretty ( nor to be snapped
off ).

If you read the manual or back panel - expect to see a notice saying
something like "this equipment must be grounded".

There's a good reason for that.


Graham.

p.s. some equipment doesn't need grounding - but instead has to be
manufactured to much higher levels of shock protection and insulation to
meet safety regulations - don't assume all gear is the same.

Lifting an earth ( especially cutting a ground lug ) to cure hum is a sure
sign of possible trouble coming your way.

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"
>
> Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
> the ticket for sure.
>

** The Parrot only took 8 hours to regurgitate my words.

Is this a record ?


Quote from 8 hours ago:

** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:
" Hum bucking pickups" .
I expect to see them again real soon - from you.
Pretending they are yours.



........... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"
>
> Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
> the ticket for sure.
>

** The Parrot only took 8 hours to regurgitate my words.

Is this a record ?


Quote from 8 hours ago:

** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:
" Hum bucking pickups" .
I expect to see them again real soon - from you.
Pretending they are yours.



........... Phil

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>Phil Allison wrote:
>>>"Logan Shaw"

>>>>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?

>>> ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

>>Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
>>an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

> The OP referred to his guitar as a "Guild electric/acoustic guitar".
>
> I assume that means an electric guitar with a voice box rather than a solid
> body type - and *not* an acoustic guitar with an added pickup.

Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:

http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/

Unfortunately, it's just about impossible to see inside to tell what
the pickup is like. All I can tell is that it there is a relatively
thick (compared to the super-thin one that goes to the 1/4" output
plug) cable headed towards the bridge. It's probably more than two
conductors based on thickness. I can't see anything more because
the X-brace blocks the view.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>Phil Allison wrote:
>>>"Logan Shaw"

>>>>Are the strings normally grounded on acoustic guitars with pickups?

>>> ** Yes - it is standard practice on all electric guitars.

>>Doesn't that seem like a red herring since we are talking about
>>an acoustic guitar and not an electric?

> The OP referred to his guitar as a "Guild electric/acoustic guitar".
>
> I assume that means an electric guitar with a voice box rather than a solid
> body type - and *not* an acoustic guitar with an added pickup.

Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:

http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/

Unfortunately, it's just about impossible to see inside to tell what
the pickup is like. All I can tell is that it there is a relatively
thick (compared to the super-thin one that goes to the 1/4" output
plug) cable headed towards the bridge. It's probably more than two
conductors based on thickness. I can't see anything more because
the X-brace blocks the view.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:

>>However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
>>that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
>>has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
>>connection.

> Do you have good life insurance ? Do your gigging friends have good life
> insurance ?

This is not the kind of amp you'd take to a gig. ;-)

But no need to worry: I just plugged the amp into the adapter thing
for a few short moments to test out whether that had an effect on the
sound. For the past ten years or so, that little ground-cheating
adapter thingy has sat in my "box of random electronic crud" that I
keep under the bed.

> Lifting an earth ( especially cutting a ground lug ) to cure hum is a sure
> sign of possible trouble coming your way.

Actually, I was using this little adapter dealy to test whether there
would be more hum if the amp was not properly grounded, and sure enough,
there was more hum that way.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:

>>However, then I got one of those two-prong to three-prong adapters
>>that one uses if one wants to avoid proper grounding. Mine conveniently
>>has the ground screw tab thing broken off so I am assured of no
>>connection.

> Do you have good life insurance ? Do your gigging friends have good life
> insurance ?

This is not the kind of amp you'd take to a gig. ;-)

But no need to worry: I just plugged the amp into the adapter thing
for a few short moments to test out whether that had an effect on the
sound. For the past ten years or so, that little ground-cheating
adapter thingy has sat in my "box of random electronic crud" that I
keep under the bed.

> Lifting an earth ( especially cutting a ground lug ) to cure hum is a sure
> sign of possible trouble coming your way.

Actually, I was using this little adapter dealy to test whether there
would be more hum if the amp was not properly grounded, and sure enough,
there was more hum that way.

- Logan

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
>
> Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:
>
> http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/
>

** Excellent pics - is that a volume knob on the side near the neck ??

Is there a pre-amp with a battery inside ??


> Unfortunately, it's just about impossible to see inside to tell what
the pickup is like.


** Piezo electric for sure - mounted somewhere under the bridge.


> All I can tell is that it there is a relatively
> thick (compared to the super-thin one that goes to the 1/4" output
> plug) cable headed towards the bridge.


** So there is ** SOMETHING ** in between ???

Did you never dream it might be an idea to describe it ?

Is it a box or just the volume pot ?

Based on the pics, that type of guitar does no have earthed strings. The PU
is supposed to be shielded well enough to do the job - but things can go
wrong. Earthing the strings will not be so simple - but may be the easiest
fix.



............. Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"
>
> Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:
>
> http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/
>

** Excellent pics - is that a volume knob on the side near the neck ??

Is there a pre-amp with a battery inside ??


> Unfortunately, it's just about impossible to see inside to tell what
the pickup is like.


** Piezo electric for sure - mounted somewhere under the bridge.


> All I can tell is that it there is a relatively
> thick (compared to the super-thin one that goes to the 1/4" output
> plug) cable headed towards the bridge.


** So there is ** SOMETHING ** in between ???

Did you never dream it might be an idea to describe it ?

Is it a box or just the volume pot ?

Based on the pics, that type of guitar does no have earthed strings. The PU
is supposed to be shielded well enough to do the job - but things can go
wrong. Earthing the strings will not be so simple - but may be the easiest
fix.



............. Phil

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Logan Shaw"

>>Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:
>>
>>http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/

> ** Excellent pics - is that a volume knob on the side near the neck ??
>
> Is there a pre-amp with a battery inside ??

Actually, what you are seeing is a pair of concentric knobs that control
bass and treble, but directly behind it (that you can't see) is a volume
knob.

> ** So there is ** SOMETHING ** in between ???
>
> Did you never dream it might be an idea to describe it ?
>
> Is it a box or just the volume pot ?

Yes, there is indeed something inbetween the pickup and the jack.
It's a box. It's really tough to tell more because it's so hard
to see it. The box has leads running out to a 9V battery. In
my particular guitar's case, the leads to the battery have been
partially replaced with some old car stereo speaker wire I had
lying around since I accidentally ripped one off trying to get
that battery up in there. (Soldering to those battery terminals
that are almost 6 inches back up in there was a serious pain in
the butt.)

> Based on the pics, that type of guitar does no have earthed strings. The PU
> is supposed to be shielded well enough to do the job - but things can go
> wrong. Earthing the strings will not be so simple - but may be the easiest
> fix.

Still, seems odd that mine doesn't hum but the OP's does. But mine
is an F4CE-NT, whereas his is an F4CE-NTHR. I have no idea what
the difference in model numbers indicates, so it might indicate
different electronics or it might indicate something else (finish,
whatever). But I guess if he takes it to a guitar shop, that's
probably not a bad thing. At least they can tell him whether or
not it's broken...

By the way, regarding grounding strings, there are times when
you're playing that your fingers need to be off the strings.
For instance, when playing harmonics, you need to get your finger
off as quickly as possible. Or, another thing I do sometimes[1]
is let some notes ring and then grab the head (about where the
logo is) and wiggle it to get a subtle vibrato effect. Anyway,
these tend to be times you're playing quietly, so it'd be a
bummer to hear a hum just then.

- Logan

[1] To my knowledge, this isn't bad for the guitar. But if
someone out there is cringing in horror as they read this
and it really is, let me know, of course...

[Logan Shaw]

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Logan Shaw"

>>Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:
>>
>>http://home.austin.rr.com/logan/guild-f4ce/

> ** Excellent pics - is that a volume knob on the side near the neck ??
>
> Is there a pre-amp with a battery inside ??

Actually, what you are seeing is a pair of concentric knobs that control
bass and treble, but directly behind it (that you can't see) is a volume
knob.

> ** So there is ** SOMETHING ** in between ???
>
> Did you never dream it might be an idea to describe it ?
>
> Is it a box or just the volume pot ?

Yes, there is indeed something inbetween the pickup and the jack.
It's a box. It's really tough to tell more because it's so hard
to see it. The box has leads running out to a 9V battery. In
my particular guitar's case, the leads to the battery have been
partially replaced with some old car stereo speaker wire I had
lying around since I accidentally ripped one off trying to get
that battery up in there. (Soldering to those battery terminals
that are almost 6 inches back up in there was a serious pain in
the butt.)

> Based on the pics, that type of guitar does no have earthed strings. The PU
> is supposed to be shielded well enough to do the job - but things can go
> wrong. Earthing the strings will not be so simple - but may be the easiest
> fix.

Still, seems odd that mine doesn't hum but the OP's does. But mine
is an F4CE-NT, whereas his is an F4CE-NTHR. I have no idea what
the difference in model numbers indicates, so it might indicate
different electronics or it might indicate something else (finish,
whatever). But I guess if he takes it to a guitar shop, that's
probably not a bad thing. At least they can tell him whether or
not it's broken...

By the way, regarding grounding strings, there are times when
you're playing that your fingers need to be off the strings.
For instance, when playing harmonics, you need to get your finger
off as quickly as possible. Or, another thing I do sometimes[1]
is let some notes ring and then grab the head (about where the
logo is) and wiggle it to get a subtle vibrato effect. Anyway,
these tend to be times you're playing quietly, so it'd be a
bummer to hear a hum just then.

- Logan

[1] To my knowledge, this isn't bad for the guitar. But if
someone out there is cringing in horror as they read this
and it really is, let me know, of course...

[Phil Allison]

"Logan Shaw"

> By the way, regarding grounding strings, there are times when
> you're playing that your fingers need to be off the strings.
> For instance, when playing harmonics, you need to get your finger
> off as quickly as possible. Or, another thing I do sometimes[1]
> is let some notes ring and then grab the head (about where the
> logo is) and wiggle it to get a subtle vibrato effect. Anyway,
> these tend to be times you're playing quietly, so it'd be a
> bummer to hear a hum just then.


** Go tell Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Gretsch and dozens of other
makers your ideas.

They all ground the strings and there is more hum when the player lifts
has his hand off them.

That is the way things are.




............ Phil

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Just to clear things up, here are some photos of a Guild F4CE:

It certainly looks like an acoustic guitar with no metal to connect to
the strings unless there's a metal plate under the bridge that the
ball ends contact. Doubt it.

I'd look at the part of the system between the wire coming from the
pickup and the amplifier input stage. There are a lot of possibilites
there, and having another guitar, another amplifier, and a known good
(well shielded, properly wired, and not broken) cable to substitute
one at a time would be a good troubleshooting approach.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Laurence Payne]

On 10 Sep 2004 15:02:13 -0700, (Matt from
Seattle) wrote:

>I have narrowed the hum down to the guitar, as you suspected. It hums
>not only when I go though the mixer, but also when just plugged in
>directly to my amp using a single 1/4" cable.

Is your system properly grounded? I believe some backward nations
(like the US ;-) allow ungrounded mains power connectors. Is your
system running from a grounded power outlet?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Richard Crowley]

"Laurence Payne" wrote...
> Is your system properly grounded? I believe some backward
> nations (like the US ;-) allow ungrounded mains power connectors.

Au contraire, grounded outlets are required everywhere for
new contstruction (AFAIK). And GFCI for anywhere where
there is moisture (bath, kitchen, outdoors, etc.) Furthermore,
ground-lift "adapters" (as mentioned by Mr. Shaw) are illegal
in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with.

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley > wrote:
>"Laurence Payne" wrote...
>> Is your system properly grounded? I believe some backward
>> nations (like the US ;-) allow ungrounded mains power connectors.
>
>Au contraire, grounded outlets are required everywhere for
>new contstruction (AFAIK). And GFCI for anywhere where
>there is moisture (bath, kitchen, outdoors, etc.) Furthermore,
>ground-lift "adapters" (as mentioned by Mr. Shaw) are illegal
>in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with.

The code says that those adaptors can be used ONLY when connected to the
center screw of a box that is itself grounded, in order to provide a grounded
outlet in older buildings with ungrounded outlets.

Unfortunately, many of those older buildings use 2-conductor Romex or knob
and tube wiring, so the boxes are not grounded. Buildings wired with BX
cable, conduit, or 2-with-ground Romex are okay because there is a path
from the box to the panel ground.

On the other hand, 2-prong outlets ARE legal for new construction in Japan.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Hev]

"Phil Allison" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rivers"
>>
>> Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
>> the ticket for sure.
>>
>
> ** The Parrot only took 8 hours to regurgitate my words.
>
> Is this a record ?
>
>
> Quote from 8 hours ago:
>
> ** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:
> " Hum bucking pickups" .
> I expect to see them again real soon - from you.
> Pretending they are yours.
>
>
>
> ........... Phil
>


I'm mainly a lurker in this NG but Mr Rivers has done much to help not only
me but a lot of others I'm sure.

While you have done much to detract from this NG lately.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Shut up & get lost.


-Hev
find me here -->
www.michaelROBOTSspringerBEGONE.com

[ScotFraser]

<< I believe some backward
> nations (like the US ;-) allow ungrounded mains power connectors. >><BR><BR>

While not disputing that the US is indeed a backward nation, grounded power has
been required in all aplications for many decades. Electrical code in the US is
a matter of local jurisdiction, although they all tend to update to
approximately the same level of safety considerations en masse. Mexico is
another matter, where I have yet to see a grounded outlet in any application.

Scott Fraser

[Laurence Payne]

On 12 Sep 2004 16:34:09 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:

>While not disputing that the US is indeed a backward nation, grounded power has
>been required in all aplications for many decades. Electrical code in the US is
>a matter of local jurisdiction, although they all tend to update to
>approximately the same level of safety considerations en masse.

Are 3-prong power plugs the norm?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Mike Rivers]

In article >
Phil Allison the Grand Poobah of Parrot Poop writes:

> ** Go tell Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Gretsch and dozens of other
> makers your ideas.
>
> They all ground the strings and there is more hum when the player lifts
> has his hand off them.
>
> That is the way things are.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I'll take that as concurrence with my original statement that I'm
surprised that electric guitars work as well as they do.

Ciricular logic does eventually get you around to seeing my point,
doesn't it?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Dave Martin]

"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Sep 2004 16:34:09 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:
>
> >While not disputing that the US is indeed a backward nation, grounded
power has
> >been required in all aplications for many decades. Electrical code in the
US is
> >a matter of local jurisdiction, although they all tend to update to
> >approximately the same level of safety considerations en masse.
>
> Are 3-prong power plugs the norm?
>
Yes. At least for new construction. However, you're not required to go in
and re-wire 50 year old houses to meet the newer codes.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:05:03 GMT, "Dave Martin" >
wrote:

>> Are 3-prong power plugs the norm?
>>
>Yes. At least for new construction. However, you're not required to go in
>and re-wire 50 year old houses to meet the newer codes.

That wasn't my question :-) Given that earthed receptacles are
available, is it the norm for equipment to be connected with a 3-prong
plug and cable? Or is the earth connection frequently ignored? My
(limited and doubtless out-of-date) knowledge of US equipment suggests
this might be the case.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Dave Martin]

"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...

> That wasn't my question :-) Given that earthed receptacles are
> available, is it the norm for equipment to be connected with a 3-prong
> plug and cable? Or is the earth connection frequently ignored? My
> (limited and doubtless out-of-date) knowledge of US equipment suggests
> this might be the case.
>
In new electrical equipment, three pronged cables are the norm - most audio
equipment comes with standard IEC cables, which have three prongs.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

[Matt from Seattle]

(snip)
>
> Is your system properly grounded? I believe some backward nations
> (like the US ;-) allow ungrounded mains power connectors. Is your
> system running from a grounded power outlet?
>

First of all, not being a regular visitor to rec.audio.pro, I was
shocked to log back in to the group and discover that my innocuous
little guitar issue had kicked off something of a "flame war." So
while my personal feeling is that such dialogue is highly
unproductive, I certainly salute the passion to which all of you are
devoting to my problem!

In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon. As Logan
demonstrated earlier, as well, it's virtually impossible to see inside
my Guild guitar to determine exactly how it's wired and what the
pickup construction looks like.

So my plan of action is still to just take it into a guitar shop, plug
it in, and see what they would offer as a diagnosis. Hopefully they
won't rip me off or recommend some major overhaul if it's a relatively
simple fix, but I suppose that's the price I pay for not knowing much
about this stuff. In the meantime, I've been playing my Takamine
acoustic guitar with a Humbucker pickup and the sound has been much
cleaner, both through the mixer and through the amplifier. So at
least I've got a temporary backup plan.

Thanks again, everybody. Let me know if there are any final thoughts
or tests that I might perform at home -- I probably won't be taking
the guitar in for a few days still...

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 12 Sep 2004 14:06:34 -0700, (Matt from
Seattle) wrote:

>In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
>about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
>into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
>three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
>the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon.

And here we get the missing information.



>Thanks again, everybody. Let me know if there are any final thoughts
>or tests that I might perform at home -- I probably won't be taking
>the guitar in for a few days still...

Do you get hum with the (previously unmentioned) guitar amplifier
disconnected from your computer?

Chris Hornbeck

[Logan Shaw]

Laurence Payne wrote:

> On 12 Sep 2004 16:34:09 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:
>
>
>>While not disputing that the US is indeed a backward nation, grounded power has
>>been required in all aplications for many decades. Electrical code in the US is
>>a matter of local jurisdiction, although they all tend to update to
>>approximately the same level of safety considerations en masse.
>
>
> Are 3-prong power plugs the norm?

I'd have to say neither is the norma. There is a lot of both.

For instance, devices that use a "brick" transformer that plugs directly
into the outlet don't usually have a ground. It wouldn't help you much
anyway, since the only thing coming out is low-voltage DC. This gives
you the extra flexibility to rotate the annoying transformer 180 degrees
(assuming the blades of the plug are symmetrical; they are not always,
but they can be) so as to possibly not block the other receptacle that
you're not using.

Virtually all computer equipment (except stuff with wall wart transformers)
uses a three-prong plug. Virtually everything you might use outdoors
has a three-prong plug. Most tools are three-prong, but not all.

Most lamps are two-prong, but polarized (meaning the plug can only go
in one way, since one blade of the plug is wider). Televisions and
home stereo equipment tend to be two-prong polarized. Pro audio
equipment tends to be three-prong.

Newer things are more likely to be three-prong. Wall warts are about
the only thing made anymore that I know of which is two prong and
not polarized.

- Logan

[Phil Allison]

"Hev"
> "Phil Allison"

>
> I'm mainly a lurker in this NG but Mr Rivers has done much to help not
only
> me but a lot of others I'm sure.
>
> While you have done much to detract from this NG lately.
>
> I guess what I'm trying to say is: Shut up & get lost.


** Hey - but Mike is parroting me.

So I am now helping feed the parrot.

You would not want the little feller to starve ???




.......... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers" = Grand Poobah of Parrot Poop
>
Phil Allison
> >
> > ** Go tell Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Gretsch and dozens of other
> > makers your ideas.
> >
> > They all ground the strings and there is more hum when the player
lifts
> > has his hand off them.
>
> > That is the way things are.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> I'll take that as concurrence with my original statement that I'm
> surprised that electric guitars work as well as they do.


** Mike has no idea he is describing himself.

He is the surprised one - because he is pig so ignorant.


>
> Ciricular logic.....



** The parrots forte.




............. Phil

[transducr]

"Phil Allison" > wrote in message >...
> "Mike Rivers"
> >
> > Earth your strings and get humbucking pickups. That's
> > the ticket for sure.
> >
>
> ** The Parrot only took 8 hours to regurgitate my words.
>
> Is this a record ?
>
>
> Quote from 8 hours ago:
>
> ** Hey Mr NG parrot - remember these words:
> " Hum bucking pickups" .
> I expect to see them again real soon - from you.
> Pretending they are yours.

awww...damn. when i saw the topic i thought it was an anti-Bush
thread. imagine my disappointment.

[Matt from Seattle]

Chris Hornbeck > wrote in message >...
> On 12 Sep 2004 14:06:34 -0700, (Matt from
> Seattle) wrote:
>
> >In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
> >about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
> >into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
> >three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
> >the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon.
>
> And here we get the missing information.
> Do you get hum with the (previously unmentioned) guitar amplifier
> disconnected from your computer?

Yes. In the most basic setup I've tried, I'm simply plugging the
guitar into the amplifier, which is plugged into the wall. No mixers,
computers, or other components are part of the signal chain -- and the
hum still occurs. I've ruled out a bad cable as a possibility, and
the amp does just fine with my other guitar, so it sounds like my
Guild guitar pickup is the root of the problem as most people have
already suggested.

[ScotFraser]

<< Are 3-prong power plugs the norm? >>

The norm? Heck, it's the law!


Scott Fraser

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 12 Sep 2004 22:52:09 -0700, (Matt from
Seattle) wrote:


> Do you get hum with the (previously unmentioned) guitar amplifier
>> disconnected from your computer?
>
>Yes. In the most basic setup I've tried, I'm simply plugging the
>guitar into the amplifier, which is plugged into the wall. No mixers,
>computers, or other components are part of the signal chain -- and the
>hum still occurs.

Cool. And just to be perfectly clear, there are no wires between
the guitar amp and the mixer. Literally, none. Right?

Believe me; I do have good reason to ask.

Chris Hornbeck

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
> about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
> into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
> three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
> the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon.

Have you tried a different cable? And does your guitar have
electronics and a battery inside?

Have you tried it in a different location? A different place in the
room (walk around with the guitar and see if the hum changes either in
volume or character) or take the rig into another room. While your
guitar doesn't have a magnetic pickup (at least I don't think so), the
type that's most susceptible to picking up noise from things like CRT
monitors, the combination of fairly high gain and a high input
impedance for a piezoelectric pickup could make it senstitive to stray
hum fields right at the internal preamp (if there is one).

> So my plan of action is still to just take it into a guitar shop, plug
> it in, and see what they would offer as a diagnosis.

That's reasonable. You might bring your amplifier and cable along so
you can determine who the guilty party is. If you get hum plugging the
guitar into two or three different amplifiers with different cables,
that points to the guitar. But if you can plug your guitar into an amp
at the shop using the cable you've been using, and it doesn't hum,
that points to the amplifier. And of course if you can find a cable
that doesn't cause hum with your amplifier . . . .

> Hopefully they
> won't rip me off or recommend some major overhaul if it's a relatively
> simple fix, but I suppose that's the price I pay for not knowing much
> about this stuff.

There's no reason why they should rip you off - if THEY know their
stuff. But don't be surprised if the answer you get is "they all do
that."


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Laurence Payne]

On 12 Sep 2004 14:06:34 -0700, (Matt from
Seattle) wrote:

>Thanks again, everybody. Let me know if there are any final thoughts
>or tests that I might perform at home -- I probably won't be taking
>the guitar in for a few days still...


Hook a temporary length of lightweight cable from the strings to the
outer case of the jack plug. If this makes no difference, hook it
to a known grounded item of gear. Can you lose the hum this way?



CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Rivers"
Matt from Seattle
>
> > In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
> > about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
> > into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
> > three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
> > the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon.
>
> Have you tried a different cable? And does your guitar have
> electronics and a battery inside?
>

** Read the thread - you lazy parrot.


> > So my plan of action is still to just take it into a guitar shop, plug
> > it in, and see what they would offer as a diagnosis.
>
> That's reasonable. You might bring your amplifier and cable along so
> you can determine who the guilty party is. If you get hum plugging the
> guitar into two or three different amplifiers with different cables,
> that points to the guitar. But if you can plug your guitar into an amp
> at the shop using the cable you've been using, and it doesn't hum,
> that points to the amplifier. And of course if you can find a cable
> that doesn't cause hum with your amplifier . . . .
>

** What he find a cable and amp that makes him sound just like Eric
Clapton ????

Squawk ......squawk ....squawk ....


>
> There's no reason why they should rip you off - if THEY know their
> stuff. But don't be surprised if the answer you get is "they all do
> that."
>
>

** Very likely that will be said by someone at some time.

All it proves is that hum it is a common fault with the product.

It may be due to moisture ingress near the piezo PU.




........... Phil

[Scott Dorsey]

>> > In terms of the grounding issue, I have to admit I know jack-****
>> > about electrical issues. All I know is that I'm plugging my guitar
>> > into a Trace Acoustic amplifier, and plugging that amp into a standard
>> > three-prong wall outlet (in a relatively new home) and still getting
>> > the irritating hum that just can't be a normal phenomenon.

Okay, the simple rule is that everything needs to have one and only one
ground path to every other piece of equipment. Never two and never zero.
Draw out the system and the ground paths and see where they all go.

IF you are having a hum problem with an amp plugged into the wall with
nothing else plugged into it, it's not a grounding problem. There is a
ground path from the plug to the amp and nothing else.

If you are having a hum problem with the instrument plugged into the amp
and the amp plugged into the wall, either you have a broken ground lead on
the instrument or the cable, or it's not a grounding problem. If it's not
a grounding problem, it is an RF pickup problem, and moving around the
room and twisting will change the hum pitch and level.

IF it doesn't hum until you plug something into the amp outputs or a DI,
then you have a grounding problem.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Matt from Seattle" > wrote in message
om...

> Yes. In the most basic setup I've tried, I'm simply plugging the
> guitar into the amplifier, which is plugged into the wall. No mixers,
> computers, or other components are part of the signal chain -- and the
> hum still occurs. I've ruled out a bad cable as a possibility, and
> the amp does just fine with my other guitar, so it sounds like my
> Guild guitar pickup is the root of the problem as most people have
> already suggested.

Either the pickup, or the internal preamp -- sounds like there's a bad
connection someplace inside the instrument. In either case, yes, it's time
to take it into the shop.

Peace,
Paul

[Matt from Seattle]

> Cool. And just to be perfectly clear, there are no wires between
> the guitar amp and the mixer. Literally, none. Right?

Nope, no other connections at all. Just the guitar, cable, and amp.
I still get the same loud buzzing/humming sound (similar to the noise
you get when you accidentally unplug your guitar from the amp without
killing the power) and it stops (almost totally) when I touch my
finger either of the metal jacks on the end of the cable.

What's your hypothesis?

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
Matt from Seattle > wrote:
>> Cool. And just to be perfectly clear, there are no wires between
>> the guitar amp and the mixer. Literally, none. Right?
>
>Nope, no other connections at all. Just the guitar, cable, and amp.
>I still get the same loud buzzing/humming sound (similar to the noise
>you get when you accidentally unplug your guitar from the amp without
>killing the power) and it stops (almost totally) when I touch my
>finger either of the metal jacks on the end of the cable.
>
>What's your hypothesis?

You have a ground problem, in that something is not grounded that should be.
Probably an internal problem on the guitar.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."