DVD vs CD burners; Firewire vs IDE-to-Firewire

[Jay Levitt]

My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
Plextor's pockets. Two questions:

1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.

2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
with both?

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Big Bear]

Jay Levitt > wrote in news:MPG.1b868857e827f2939897e2@news-
east.giganews.com:

> I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.)

Any external DVD/CD writer will have an IDE (or SCSI if it's an older CD
drive) drive inside. There's no such thing as a 'Native' firewire burner in
that respect.

[Big Bear]

Jay Levitt > wrote in news:MPG.1b868857e827f2939897e2@news-
east.giganews.com:

> I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.)

Any external DVD/CD writer will have an IDE (or SCSI if it's an older CD
drive) drive inside. There's no such thing as a 'Native' firewire burner in
that respect.

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:12:42 -0400, Jay Levitt >
wrote:

>2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
>Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
>drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
>realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
>people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
>now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
>worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
>keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
>with both?

Would it hurt that much to walk to the other room when CDs need to be
burnt?

My Plextor 708A is perfectly reliable burning CDs.



CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:12:42 -0400, Jay Levitt >
wrote:

>2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
>Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
>drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
>realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
>people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
>now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
>worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
>keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
>with both?

Would it hurt that much to walk to the other room when CDs need to be
burnt?

My Plextor 708A is perfectly reliable burning CDs.



CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[HKC]

My Plextor 712 is completely stable and DVD is far faster when it comes to
backing up larger projects. I haven?t had a single problem since I switched
neither with CD?s or DVD?s.

--
Henrik Krogh

"Jay Levitt" > skrev i en meddelelse
...
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
> Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.
>
> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
> people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
> now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
> worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
> keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
> with both?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[HKC]

My Plextor 712 is completely stable and DVD is far faster when it comes to
backing up larger projects. I haven?t had a single problem since I switched
neither with CD?s or DVD?s.

--
Henrik Krogh

"Jay Levitt" > skrev i en meddelelse
...
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
> Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.
>
> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
> people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
> now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
> worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
> keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
> with both?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Levitt wrote:
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about?

I think the need for worry is diminishing. I do know that my PX-708UF rips audio CD's faster than anything I've owned before, and has been a generally wonderful drive.



> All the newest drives work with Plextools,
> so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.

The 712 definitely supports PlexTools Pro, which my 708 did not. I haven't tried to install a newer PTP version to see if theyve made it work with the 708 but I doubt it. The 712 is still carrying bit of a premium in price.




> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.)

Yes, they're PATA drives with bridge chips.



> Have people
> seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right

Not so far in my setup. I will add that the Plextor enclosure is pretty slick ergonomically, much nicer than earlier enclosures I have. Also, it has a small and rather noisy fan--so I leave it turned off most of the time.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Levitt wrote:
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about?

I think the need for worry is diminishing. I do know that my PX-708UF rips audio CD's faster than anything I've owned before, and has been a generally wonderful drive.



> All the newest drives work with Plextools,
> so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.

The 712 definitely supports PlexTools Pro, which my 708 did not. I haven't tried to install a newer PTP version to see if theyve made it work with the 708 but I doubt it. The 712 is still carrying bit of a premium in price.




> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.)

Yes, they're PATA drives with bridge chips.



> Have people
> seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right

Not so far in my setup. I will add that the Plextor enclosure is pretty slick ergonomically, much nicer than earlier enclosures I have. Also, it has a small and rather noisy fan--so I leave it turned off most of the time.

[Jay Levitt]

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:12:42 -0400, Jay Levitt >
> wrote:
>
> Would it hurt that much to walk to the other room when CDs need to be
> burnt?

It's actually in the next room and up a ladder.. a bit inconvenient,
yes. But mostly I want to use this for playing CDs too, and gain the
advantage of the better converters on my setup.

> My Plextor 708A is perfectly reliable burning CDs.

Thanks.

> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
>

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Jay Levitt]

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:12:42 -0400, Jay Levitt >
> wrote:
>
> Would it hurt that much to walk to the other room when CDs need to be
> burnt?

It's actually in the next room and up a ladder.. a bit inconvenient,
yes. But mostly I want to use this for playing CDs too, and gain the
advantage of the better converters on my setup.

> My Plextor 708A is perfectly reliable burning CDs.

Thanks.

> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
>

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[reddred]

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs.

I'm not aware of any real issues, but not many of the DVD burner
manufacturers seem to be focusing on cd buring.

I think, yet and still, the best burner for cd's is the plextor premium. You
could get one of those, and if all you need the dvd drive for is backing up
data, you could get a lite-on or a toshiba and be fine.

If you don't want to make up your mind right away, you could mull over it
until the 16x plextor dvdr comes out and just get that. Last time I checked,
that's nearing the speed limit for dvd burning anyway.

jb



> It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
> Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.
>
> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
> people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
> now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
> worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
> keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
> with both?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[reddred]

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
...
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs.

I'm not aware of any real issues, but not many of the DVD burner
manufacturers seem to be focusing on cd buring.

I think, yet and still, the best burner for cd's is the plextor premium. You
could get one of those, and if all you need the dvd drive for is backing up
data, you could get a lite-on or a toshiba and be fine.

If you don't want to make up your mind right away, you could mull over it
until the 16x plextor dvdr comes out and just get that. Last time I checked,
that's nearing the speed limit for dvd burning anyway.

jb



> It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
> Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.
>
> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
> people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
> now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
> worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
> keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
> with both?
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[Arny Krueger]

"Jay Levitt" > wrote in message

> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being
> not as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser
> frequency. I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or
> no longer true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives
> work with Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe
> than sorry.

I have a number of DVD drives, and more in customer hands. As a rule the
current Liteon and Pioneer drives burn CDs that are just fine.

> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an
> IDE drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80
> more. (I realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside
> anyway.) Have people seen any difference in compatibility with the
> two options? Right now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite
> enclosure, so it might be worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the
> other hand, it seems wasteful to keep buying the Firewire bridge over
> and over. Anyone have experience with both?

I have used a few different USB-2 and Firewire enclosures and had good luck.
$80 more for a given brand of enclosure seems a bit salty.

[TonyP]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Levitt" > wrote in message
>
> > My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> > Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
> >
> > 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> > don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> > vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> > standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being
> > not as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser
> > frequency. I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or
> > no longer true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives
> > work with Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe
> > than sorry.
>
> I have a number of DVD drives, and more in customer hands. As a rule the
> current Liteon and Pioneer drives burn CDs that are just fine.

I was worried about this too so I did some checking.
Using a Lite-on 812S DVDR/W and a Lite-on 5238S CDR/W, using Kprobe2.
CD's burnt in the DVD drive are OK when tested in the DVD drive. The error
rate is much higher when tested in the CD drive.
CD's burnt in the CD writer, are lower error rate regardless. Same media
used, and latest firmware for both drives.
I speculate that the type of laser used has an impact.

I'll stick to the CDR/W for writing CD's. The price is so low, I can't see
any reason not to have two drives anyway.
YMMV so make sure you use plextools to check.

TonyP.

[Mike]

Jay Levitt > wrote in message >...
> My CD burner is getting long in the tooth, so it's time to refill
> Plextor's pockets. Two questions:
>
> 1. A DVD burner would be handy to provide sessions to clients, but I
> don't want to compromise the quality of the burned CDs. I have some
> vague foggy memory of DVD burners not being as good at burning CDs as
> standalone CD burners - or maybe I'm remembering DVD *players* being not
> as good at *playing* CD-ROMs. It's something about the laser frequency.
> I can't find anything concrete in Google. Is this FUD, or no longer
> true, or something to worry about? All the newest drives work with
> Plextools, so I could check C2s, of course, but better safe than sorry.
>
> 2. My PC is in another room, so right now, I have an IDE drive in a
> Granite Firewire enclosure to keep the drive handy. I could buy an IDE
> drive again, or I could buy a "native" Firewire drive for $80 more. (I
> realize the native drive probably has a bridge inside anyway.) Have
> people seen any difference in compatibility with the two options? Right
> now, Traktor doesn't work with the Granite enclosure, so it might be
> worth the $80 if it fixes that; on the other hand, it seems wasteful to
> keep buying the Firewire bridge over and over. Anyone have experience
> with both?

Not knowing if this is technically correct or not, I thought what I
had heard was that a dual unit had problems because of having to
create different a laser frequency of two different wave lengths, and
different intensities.

Seems I remember some devices two lasers? Maybe maybe not. Maybe there
is a modern workaround.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

[Jay Levitt]

In article >,
says...
> Not knowing if this is technically correct or not, I thought what I
> had heard was that a dual unit had problems because of having to
> create different a laser frequency of two different wave lengths, and
> different intensities.

Yep, that's pretty much what I remember hearing. But I've also read
that modern burners have two lasers. And I read it on the Internet, so
it must be true.

Summing up this thread, at least to date: Plextor DVD burners have no
problems burning CDs, but one report of Lite-On burners giving trouble.
And there's no apparent advantage to buying the Firewire version except
the very pretty case. (Actually, it looks like it'd save me a rack
space, but I'll live.)

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

[andrewunix]

Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:39:00 +1000, suggested:
:
: I was worried about this too so I did some checking.
: Using a Lite-on 812S DVDR/W and a Lite-on 5238S CDR/W, using Kprobe2.
: CD's burnt in the DVD drive are OK when tested in the DVD drive. The error
: rate is much higher when tested in the CD drive.
: CD's burnt in the CD writer, are lower error rate regardless. Same media
: used, and latest firmware for both drives.
: I speculate that the type of laser used has an impact.

I'd say that it's going to come down to the specific mechanism. The
technology in the 812S is different enough from that in the 5238S that one
could prefer a different media than the other, even though they're the
same brand of drive.

--
agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

[Scott Dorsey]

Chel van Gennip > wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:26:22 +0200, Jay Levitt wrote:
>
>> Summing up this thread, at least to date: Plextor DVD burners have no
>> problems burning CDs, but one report of Lite-On burners giving trouble.
>> And there's no apparent advantage to buying the Firewire version except
>> the very pretty case. (Actually, it looks like it'd save me a rack
>> space, but I'll live.)
>
>I never have seen errors writing CD's on DVD burners (Philips DVDRW228
>and NEC 2500A). To be sure I just tested a CD-R from the NEC in my
>Plextor W2410A. There showed no read errors or retries at all.

Of course there were! It's just that the error correction hides them. Even
on a high quality CD pressing you'll find the interpolation kicks on once or
twice a minute on your CD player. With a CD-R it's more like ten times that
for a good disk to a couple hundred times that for a high speed burn with
a cheap drugstore disc.

The disc that might have a low enough error rate to play perfectly well on
your CD player at home might start skipping on the car player. And the
disk that plays fine on either one might well be rejected by a pressing
plant as having too many errors to use for glass mastering.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[TonyP]

"Chel van Gennip" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:26:22 +0200, Jay Levitt wrote:
> I never have seen errors writing CD's on DVD burners (Philips DVDRW228
> and NEC 2500A). To be sure I just tested a CD-R from the NEC in my
> Plextor W2410A. There showed no read errors or retries at all.

I'm talking about measuring actual C1 disk errors, not C2.
Not often I see a disk with NONE! C2 yes, but not C1.

TonyP.

[TonyP]

"Chel van Gennip" > wrote in message
...

> The medium is designed to be not total error free. The mediaformat is
> designed to correct for these errors. Most high density storage media do
> have these correctable errors and are designed to have them and have
> mediaformats designed to correct them.

I did not indicate otherwise.

>If you have some C1 errors you are
> within specs, no degradation at all in audio will result.
>So some C1 "errors" should not be regarded as errors at all.

When testing disk quality for mastering they should!

TonyP.

[TonyP]

"Chel van Gennip" > wrote in message
...
> Not really, when the image is transfered to the glass master C1 errors
> normally are corrected. Only a high C1 error rate could indicate the
> presence of some undetected (and uncorected) C1 errors. This C1 error test
> should be done on the reading device while mastering as the C1 error rate
> depends on the combination of CD and drive.

Well yes, but what most people want is a combination of writer and media
that will produce error free results on as many readers as possible.

> The test you posted was not very conclusive:

Agreed.
I did ask if anyone else had any results rather than unfounded opinions. So
far I haven't seen any other data.

> The DVD reader could read both the CD written by the DVD drive and by the
> CD drive with a low error rate.
> The CD reader showed a higher error rate on the CD written by the DVD
> drive than on the CD written on the same CD drive.
> Conclusion could as well be: the CD drive has alignment errors, the DVD
> drive is a better reader device, as it can compensate for these errors.

Yep, it's quite possible. Not the way I'm going to bet until I have more
data though. The fact is I have never had a problem with those disks from
that CD writer on any CD player, so it can't be too bad. However I admit no
other experience with CD's from the DVD writer.

TonyP.

[TonyP]

"Chel van Gennip" > wrote in message
...
> I've heard
> that in The Netherlands now about 5% of the commercial pressed CD's are
> returned to the shops due to compatibility problems with some readers
> because of some "protection?", so who cares about C1 errors today?

Indeed, many of these protection schemes deliberately introduce errors!

TonyP.