Those new Bose PA speakers

[Particle Salad]

OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have
worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.

Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
going on here that make the system work:

- smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
usual bose lack of lower mids)
- wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
- some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
- omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies

Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
going on then I'm aware of?

Info is appreciated... thanks!


--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside."

See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info.

[George]

In article >,
"Particle Salad" > wrote:

> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
> percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have
> worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
> though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.
>
> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)
> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?
>
> Info is appreciated... thanks!

I had to salvage a show that the musos could not get the things working
right
I would say what I feel but I really don't have the energy or time for
another go round about these POS speakers
ok for a solo act absoulte train wreck for a band they really don't do
anything or sound any better than you average mackie 808 and peavey
speakers on a stick IMO
George
but they sure do cost alot more
George

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad"
> wrote:

>OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
>thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
>than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
>It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
>location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
>spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
>me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
>had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
>possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
>control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix,
and having to play in a musical balance?

Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all
hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on
themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of
speakers pointing at he band.

No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn
down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for).

If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well.
Sometimes I don't have to.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[JoVee]

in article , Particle Salad at
wrote on 8/12/04 7:45 PM:

> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen (SNIP)

Hate BOSE all you want...
These Things Work.

ASIDE...for those who haven;t come across these things, it's basically a
250w amp driving a 6' tall line array built into a 4" metal casing that
breaks into two 1/2-pole sections for transport andlocks into a heavy 3'
disc-shaped floor-base that contains all the electronics. In use they look
EXACTLY like an iron-base-&-pipe lighting pole. Alone it does voice/ag stuff
well with a designed rolloff below 90hz or so. Plug in the add-on subwoofer
(or ANY subwoofer... I used a RAMSA 240), and -another- amp already in the
base kicks in to drive it and changes the lo-end rolloff of the column to
match. With the woof the system is really very impressive. The INTENT (and
this is a GREAT concept) is that EACH PERFORMER in an ensemble has one
system/column for their vocal+inst. This gives the audience a localisable
point source for each performer and a clearer overall presentation... It's
the legendary Dead/Alembic Wall System in a pub-size approach. (Anyone who
knows me, knows my visceral gaga-reaction thereunto)
This much about the thing is dandy.

the ONLY real problem (and it's a doozy) is that BOSE just totally GAPPED on
the front end. You'd think that with a bank of 100 selectable presets on
each input channel, they'd let you be able to STORE ones you design... but
no. they're ONLY what Bose installed in their Great Wisdom as The Answer.
Some work well (SM58 VOCAL etc), most don't. The wired remote control allows
you to BUILD one... each time you fire up... no storage... and still can't
access the detail of EQ and such that the factory settings seem to.
this is inexcusable... but STILL makes them not DISASTEROUS but just damned
FRUSTRATING since everything else about the system and its variations is
just so damned Spot On.


> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system.

nope... unless you are ok sacrificing the VeryNonTrivial design elements
that make this system portable, easy to set up and strike FAST (as in 5
min), powerful and WORK at the price they sell it for (they mfgr these in
China).


> It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)

24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts



> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit

not that I know of. Feedback 'reduction' in this case is the natural result
of a pretty danged smooth response of a relatively hemispherical even-field
line radiator. ANY truly flat and wide-spectral-dispersion speaker would
give you similar results.


> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies

not unusual or unique here


> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?

no voodoo in this case. I've run stacks of 802's like this before and liked
it (shoot me)... as did Cirque Du Soliel in '89. My thought was to build a
bi-directional version, Something like 16 Galaxy drivers in a 8+8-
back-to-back housing. It would beat the crap out of the bose-column-alone lo
end at the expense of some hi-end smoothness, while the bi-directional
aspect would make them work in the traditional Left/Right band setup. You
could well have the speaker a foot off your ear and not feedback. It'd be
damned HEAVY, need support somehow, and the more I drew and scratched and
tried to make it even REASONABLY portable, robust and buildable, the more I
admired the ergonomics of What Bose Hath Wrought with this one.

[JoVee]

CORRECTION:

> ASIDE...for those who haven;t come across these things, it's basically a
> 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array built into a 4" metal casing that
> breaks into two 1/2-pole sections for transport andlocks into a heavy 3'
> disc-shaped floor-base that contains all the electronics. In use they look
> EXACTLY like an iron-base-&-pipe lighting pole. Alone it does voice/ag stuff
> well with a designed rolloff below 90hz or so. Plug in the add-on subwoofer
> (or ANY subwoofer... I used a RAMSA 240), and -another- amp already in the
> base kicks in to drive it and changes the lo-end rolloff of the column to
> match. With the woof the system is really very impressive.
....
> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts

CORRECTION:
I may be in error here...
I think it might have a 250w amp for
--each 1/2 of the pole--
I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
2 for the pole and one for the woof

[Kurt Albershardt]

JoVee wrote:
>
>> it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array
>> ...
>> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts
>
>
> CORRECTION:
> I may be in error here...
> I think it might have a 250w amp for
> --each 1/2 of the pole--
> I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
> 2 for the pole and one for the woof


Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...

[Scott Dorsey]

Particle Salad > wrote:
>OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
>thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
>than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
>It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
>location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
>spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
>me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
>had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
>possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
>control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Basically, this is the result of having very wide horizontal dispersion. Wide
dispersion means lots of leakage on stage and therefore no need for monitors
with small acoustic acts. The fact that it doesn't sound like it's coming
through a telephone is the side effect of eliminating the horn since you
no longer are trying to control high end dispersion.

I think the whole line array thing here is mostly a gimmick; I don't think
the vertical directivity control resulting from the line array is really
all that great. What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback problems that result
from the high leakage.

The microphone modelling stuff in there is also mostly a useless gimmick
that does more harm than good.

But the overall concept of using wide dispersion speakers without horns
and DSP feedback reduction is not a bad one for small groups where high
levels aren't really needed. The idea falls apart completely once you
are in a very live club with high audience noise levels because you really
don't have great gain before feedback, but when it can work, it can work
well.

>Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
>roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
>going on here that make the system work:
>
>- smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
>usual bose lack of lower mids)
>- wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary

These are easy. And you'll note that there is no horn on the top end,
so the top end rolls off very smoothly with no narrow peaks. That actually
is a help both for natural sound and reduced feedback.

The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.

>- some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
>- omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
>Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
>aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
>going on then I'm aware of?

Sure. I used to do a small dance band with a pair of AR-3Xes. Plenty of
spill-over so everyone could hear the singer. Worked just fine because
it wasn't very loud and it didn't have to be.

>Info is appreciated... thanks!

I think Bose has just realized that there is a small niche market of
acoustic performers who aren't really served by the typical PA gear they
find in their local MI store. I don't think they have anything too
innovative going on here, and I think a pair of AR-3Xes, a powered mixer
and a notch filter might do the same thing. But they have it all in one
package.

If you compare the Bose system with a good pair of non-horn-loaded box
speakers, you'll find they sound very distant in comparison, with a very
recessed upper midrange. I think that's a disadvantage in the application
too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[No Spam]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
> notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback
> problems that result from the high leakage.

Oh really?

[Scott Dorsey]

No Spam > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
>> notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback
> > problems that result from the high leakage.
>
>Oh really?

According to the marketing glossies, yeah. They do some handwaving about
magical anti-feedback algorithms. Dunno how they compare to a skilled
operator with a Little Dipper, but the point of the system is that it's
not supposed to need a skilled operator.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.

Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
horizontal dispersion?

(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)

For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...

> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.

Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
horizontal dispersion?

(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)

For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

Peace,
Paul

[Pete Dimsman]

Paul Stamler wrote:

> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
> someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
> the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

[Pete Dimsman]

Paul Stamler wrote:

> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
> someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
> the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

[Sugarite]

"Particle Salad" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would.

I'm not surprised.
Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
best speakers on the market, at any price point.
The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

[Sugarite]

"Particle Salad" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would.

I'm not surprised.
Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
best speakers on the market, at any price point.
The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Pete Dimsman wrote:
>
> Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system.
>> As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of
>> power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased
> > those power amps are.
>
>
> But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

The real question regards the efficiency (of those 2¼" cones combined with their respective amplifiers) at translating AC Watts into SPL in the back third of the audience area.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Pete Dimsman wrote:
>
> Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system.
>> As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of
>> power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased
> > those power amps are.
>
>
> But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

The real question regards the efficiency (of those 2¼" cones combined with their respective amplifiers) at translating AC Watts into SPL in the back third of the audience area.

[Scott Dorsey]

Paul Stamler > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>
>> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
>> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
>> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.
>
>Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
>horizontal dispersion?

Sorry. I means increasing vertical directionality. Oops.

>(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)
>
>For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
>someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
>the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

For a larger band the whole idea doesn't work. But for a solo act it is
indeed nice.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Paul Stamler > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>
>> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
>> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
>> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.
>
>Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
>horizontal dispersion?

Sorry. I means increasing vertical directionality. Oops.

>(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)
>
>For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
>someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
>the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

For a larger band the whole idea doesn't work. But for a solo act it is
indeed nice.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Sugarite <not for you> wrote:
>
>I'm not surprised.
>Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
>best speakers on the market, at any price point.

You aren't really Sugarite, are you?

>The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
>staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

That's true, and a huge amount of really impressive engineering expertise
goes into their speakers. Unfortunately it goes into making them profitable
rather than making them sound good. This is a good thing if you are a
stockholder but a bad thing if you are a customer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >, Sugarite <not for you> wrote:
>
>I'm not surprised.
>Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
>best speakers on the market, at any price point.

You aren't really Sugarite, are you?

>The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
>staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

That's true, and a huge amount of really impressive engineering expertise
goes into their speakers. Unfortunately it goes into making them profitable
rather than making them sound good. This is a good thing if you are a
stockholder but a bad thing if you are a customer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

Damned things are expensive, though. At least, that's my thought.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Particle Salad" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
> percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to
have
> worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
> though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.
>
> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup
(the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)
> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using
some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?
>
> Info is appreciated... thanks!
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside."
>
> See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info.
>
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Damned things are expensive, though. At least, that's my thought.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Particle Salad" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
> percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to
have
> worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
> though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.
>
> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup
(the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)
> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using
some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?
>
> Info is appreciated... thanks!
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside."
>
> See http://www.particlesalad.com for more info.
>
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

We went around the bush a number of times on AAPLS about these things, so I
know what George means about not doing that again.

No matter how one wants to look at it, and I know that JoVee has been pretty
impressed with them, but the fact is that Bose simply uses technologies like
line arrays with the cheapest little pieces of crap speakers they could jam
into a box. It may work, but if it does, and I believe JoVee, then at least
they could put some dynamite drivers in them to make it worth the exhobitant
price they put on the things. After all, they didn't develop anything new,
just smaller. Bose's ROI must be tremendous.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad"
> > wrote:
>
> >OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> >thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way
better
> >than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> >It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> >location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The
sweet
> >spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> >me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> >had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> >possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> >control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix,
> and having to play in a musical balance?
>
> Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all
> hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on
> themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of
> speakers pointing at he band.
>
> No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn
> down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for).
>
> If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well.
> Sometimes I don't have to.
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Roger W. Norman]

We went around the bush a number of times on AAPLS about these things, so I
know what George means about not doing that again.

No matter how one wants to look at it, and I know that JoVee has been pretty
impressed with them, but the fact is that Bose simply uses technologies like
line arrays with the cheapest little pieces of crap speakers they could jam
into a box. It may work, but if it does, and I believe JoVee, then at least
they could put some dynamite drivers in them to make it worth the exhobitant
price they put on the things. After all, they didn't develop anything new,
just smaller. Bose's ROI must be tremendous.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad"
> > wrote:
>
> >OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> >thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way
better
> >than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> >It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> >location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The
sweet
> >spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> >me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> >had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> >possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> >control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix,
> and having to play in a musical balance?
>
> Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all
> hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on
> themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of
> speakers pointing at he band.
>
> No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn
> down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for).
>
> If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well.
> Sometimes I don't have to.
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Roger W. Norman]

Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Sugarite" <not for you> wrote in message
...
>
> "Particle Salad" > wrote in message
> m...
> > OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> > thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way
better
> > than I thought they would.
>
> I'm not surprised.
> Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
> best speakers on the market, at any price point.
> The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
> staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Sugarite" <not for you> wrote in message
...
>
> "Particle Salad" > wrote in message
> m...
> > OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> > thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way
better
> > than I thought they would.
>
> I'm not surprised.
> Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
> best speakers on the market, at any price point.
> The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
> staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.
>
>

[George]

In article >,
"Roger W. Norman" > wrote:

> Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
>
>
How about
Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
65.00 usa each for them.

[George]

In article >,
"Roger W. Norman" > wrote:

> Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
>
>
How about
Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
65.00 usa each for them.

[Rupert]

"Sugarite" <not for you> wrote in message >...
> "Particle Salad" > wrote in message
> m...
> > OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> > thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> > than I thought they would.
>
> I'm not surprised.
> Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
> best speakers on the market, at any price point.
> The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
> staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing
particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their
ability to hype their products.

Rupert

[Rupert]

"Sugarite" <not for you> wrote in message >...
> "Particle Salad" > wrote in message
> m...
> > OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> > thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> > than I thought they would.
>
> I'm not surprised.
> Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
> best speakers on the market, at any price point.
> The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
> staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing
particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their
ability to hype their products.

Rupert

[Sugarite]

"George" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote:
>
> > Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
> >
> >
> How about
> Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
> 65.00 usa each for them.

That's typical, but not limited to Bose.

[Sugarite]

"George" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote:
>
> > Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
> >
> >
> How about
> Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
> 65.00 usa each for them.

That's typical, but not limited to Bose.

[Cerion]

You're like, evoking evil spirits, man... :-) I'm gonna have to light
a candle and burn some incense now to clear the bad mojo on this newsgroup!
:-P


I gotta question for ya:

How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal
levels, to balance out with a drumset for example?

Where I work we have literally hundreds of sound reinforced rooms and
auditoriums, and there's a guy who tried to apply what he learned from
designing his own home theater sound system to a few larger and much
livelier acoustic spaces and his sound systems -totally flopped- e.g. not
enough gain before feedback, very poor intelligibility, relatively narrow
spectral response and so on. He was using Bose. To the typical user or
audience, all they know is that it's hard to understand what the heck the
guy with the mic is saying. To trained ear it sounds like... well, Bose. :-P

Many Bose systems are designed to be omnidirectional, which makes it
difficult to get much gain before feedback. Close talking a typical cardoid
mic or using headset boom mics can help when using speakers like that, along
with an absorptive acoustic environment, but under similar circumstances,
the more directional speaker systems will work better, serving to direct
acoustic energy where one wants it, the audience' ears, and not mostly
reflecting all over the room and -then- to the audience' ears

Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient
at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing
pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all
you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may
actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in
to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before
feedback issue...

I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

Skearler


> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

[Greg Taylor]

Cerion wrote:
....
>
> Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
> response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient
> at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing
> pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all
> you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may
> actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in
> to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before
> feedback issue...

What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
better drivers?

I know a guy who is really sold on these because the demo he saw
impressed him both with the overall performance of the system and
especially with the physical size and weight, since he has back
problems. He travels with his wife and performs Southern Gospel in
various venues, mainly small to medium size churches (100-400 seat).
He prerecorded his own rhythm tracks and plays various lead instruments
along with them live.


> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bose SR products. How do you think
these speakers compare with, say, those little Community CPL series
speakers (adding a sub, if necessary).

[Kurt Albershardt]

Greg Taylor wrote:

> Cerion wrote:
>
>> Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
>> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
>> response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically
>> deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows.
>
>
> What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
> better drivers?


The DSP used for line arrays is quite specific to the drivers used.

Also, I doin't know where you would find 2-1/8" replacement options. I'll venture to say that Bose knows as much about little cones like that as anyone.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Cerion wrote:
>
> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

Depends entirely on the SOS chosen. Personally, I hate the midrange on most 15" 2-ways and that is one area where conventional physics does support the Bose architecture.

A good pair of 10" or 12" SOS's properly driven, with subwoofer(s) if needed, is more to my taste.

[Arny Krueger]

"Kurt Albershardt" > wrote in message

> Greg Taylor wrote:
>
>> Cerion wrote:
>>
>>> Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
>>> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively
>>> flat response. In spite of the processing, these systems are
>>> typically deficient at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and
>>> lows.
>>
>>
>> What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
>> better drivers?

> The DSP used for line arrays is quite specific to the drivers used.

Agreed.

> Also, I doin't know where you would find 2-1/8" replacement options.

Agreed.

> I'll venture to say that Bose knows as much about little cones like
> that as anyone.

I think they are related to the 2.5" drivers in the Bose cubes.

Bottom line, its darn hard to move a decent amount of air with drivers this
size, even if there are lots of them. All things being equal both diaphragm
area and linear displacement go down with diameter. A double whammy, as it
were.

[Scott Dorsey]

Cerion > wrote:
>
>How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal
>levels, to balance out with a drumset for example?

They don't. They aren't designed for that. They are intended for small
and quiet acoustic acts and not to compete with anything huge.

>I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
>2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
>will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

The nice thing about the Bose things is that they don't sound like horns.
Also, they have everything all in one box so the skill required to operate
it is minimal. Yes, they are phenomenally inflated in price, but that is
what Bose does. But I think the idea is a good one, and I would like to
see a company that actually cares about sound quality take the idea and do
it right.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Greg Taylor > wrote:
>Cerion wrote:
>...
>>
>> Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
>> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
>> response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient
>> at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing
>> pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all
>> you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may
>> actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in
>> to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before
>> feedback issue...
>
>What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
>better drivers?

They'd then have to change the firmware inside the DSP processor, since there
is stuff in there that compensates for the driver characteristics.

>I know a guy who is really sold on these because the demo he saw
>impressed him both with the overall performance of the system and
>especially with the physical size and weight, since he has back
>problems. He travels with his wife and performs Southern Gospel in
>various venues, mainly small to medium size churches (100-400 seat).
>He prerecorded his own rhythm tracks and plays various lead instruments
>along with them live.

That's basically the sort of thing that it's designed for. But quite
frankly, it weighs a ton. It looks like it shouldn't weigh all the much
but try picking it up and you may be surprised.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote:
>Cerion wrote:
>>
>> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
>> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
>> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.
>
>Depends entirely on the SOS chosen. Personally, I hate the midrange on most 15" 2-ways and that is one area where conventional physics does support the Bose architecture.
>
>A good pair of 10" or 12" SOS's properly driven, with subwoofer(s) if needed, is more to my taste.

Absolutely, but there aren't many of those things sold in the MI market.
And there are certainly _no_ non-horn-loaded boxes sold in the MI market
by anyone but Bose.

As I said earlier in the thread, Bose found a market niche that nobody
else was filling, and they built a box that fills it. It's a sort of
half-assed box and it's a very high markup box, but there isn't much
else that you can get at the music store that does what it does. Bose
is very good at this sort of thing and they are real marketing geniuses.

It is a real shame that you can't get a 12" Radian or SLS at your corner
music store, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
> better drivers?

Then they'd be something else and probably you'd have to change some
of the processing that's in the base, too.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Bob Cain]

Scott Dorsey wrote:


>
> They'd then have to change the firmware inside the DSP processor, since there
> is stuff in there that compensates for the driver characteristics.

I didn't know that but it's fascinating. It sure can
explain why the end result is so well reported. The only
requirement on the drivers with the inclusion of DSP
technology is some consistency of the drivers and pretty
good linearity. Actually, if the data in the processor that
performs the correction is determined from a really
straightforward test procedure that would be applied in some
way anyway, then the consistency requirement is lifted.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[JoVee]

in article , Cerion at
wrote on 8/16/04 9:30 AM:

> I gotta question for ya:
>
> How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal
> levels, to balance out with a drumset for example?

The pole is some 4-6 feet from the performer and there IS a (desired and
intended) self-limiting level situation involved in that when you hit
feedback point, you're too loud for the way the system works in the room...
and work it does, surprisingly. Something -I- like about this is that it
pretty much forces the ensemble into a only slightly-more-than-human volume
range in the venue. I have always been ****ed at the concept that an
'acoustic' band needs to have their PA hit 100db average in a 70-seat pub.
If you haven;t worked with these things, don;t knock the theory until you
understand it.


> Many Bose systems are designed to be omnidirectional,

I have yet to see one of this sort of thing... which models are these?

most ANY speaker system is pretty dang omni below 200Hz. Even
stacks of 802's do maybe a fair 120deg spread (and that's what I pick em
for) above that. I know of no bose system (outside of the woofer units)
'designed' to be omni.


>... under similar circumstances,
> the more directional speaker systems will work better, serving to direct
> acoustic energy where one wants it, the audience' ears, and not mostly
> reflecting all over the room and -then- to the audience' ears

remember, these systems (esp as I use em) are set up to be BOTH the main
sound producer AND the 'monitor' if you will, this solves a special case
problem of making performances blend naturally with the performers
themselves. And yes ANY equally wide smooth dispersion system can accomplish
that as well.


> Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
> response.


ummmmm EFFICIENCY and FLAT RESPONSE are very different things... don;t get
em confused. The BOSE 1-driver-for-all systems indeed go to severe
compensatory EQ to make that work, and the attendant sonic compromises are
no mystery, secret or denial.


> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

again, staying on-topic, I know of NO horn/woof-on-a-stick that does
anything like what the Bose Pole can... much like no 2kW spotlight can do
what a 2kW distributed diffuse cieling lighting system can

[JoVee]

in article , Greg Taylor at
wrote on 8/16/04 10:23 AM:

>
>
>> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
>> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
>> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.
>
> Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bose SR products. How do you think
> these speakers compare with, say, those little Community CPL series
> speakers (adding a sub, if necessary).

to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and even
hi-end horn. The old Peavy SP-2 (based on the Altec studio monitor with the
421 woof and the 511b horn) crossed over not at the usual 1.2kHz but at
800Hz. It's a remarkably smooth and wide system for what it is and indeed
was designed as a PLAYBACK speaker.

[Kurt Albershardt]

JoVee wrote:
> in article , Greg Taylor at
> wrote on 8/16/04 10:23 AM:
>>
>>> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
>>> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
>>> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bose SR products. How do you think
>> these speakers compare with, say, those little Community CPL series
>> speakers (adding a sub, if necessary).
>
> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and even
> hi-end horn.

Actually, I prefer the opposite arrangement, where the low-mid cone driver works up to 2500-3000 Hz and the horn only kicks in above the vocal range. This requires 8" or 10" mids and pretty much ensures use of a sub for a wide range of musical styles but results in a more natural-sounding reproduction to my ears.

Big bucks and big weight can yield great results with MF horns that cover down to 400 Hz or so but those hardly qualify in the category we're discussing.




> The old Peavy SP-2 (based on the Altec studio monitor with the
> 421 woof and the 511b horn) crossed over not at the usual 1.2kHz but at
> 800Hz. It's a remarkably smooth and wide system for what it is and indeed
> was designed as a PLAYBACK speaker.

Hey--I used to get great sound out of both JBL Strongboxes and Bose 80whatever they were's by feeding them 800 Watts ad using them as midranges in a 3-way setup.

[reese thomas]

> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and
> even hi-end horn. The old Peavy SP-2 (based on the Altec studio
> monitor with the 421 woof and the 511b horn) crossed over not at the
> usual 1.2kHz but at 800Hz. It's a remarkably smooth and wide system
> for what it is and indeed was designed as a PLAYBACK speaker.
>

??? I have 4 of the original (800 xover, before they changed to 1200) SP2s
.. I have long ago biamped them because a;they blew horns, and b: although
for the time they sounded ok, they soure sound a lot better at their sweet
spot (I've found 1600 perfect.) I don't use them often, must modern small
speakers are lighter and soungd at least equivilent.

BTW In the near field I found a very intrusive 'sort of squished'
distortion at the original 800 and even the 1200 that dissapeared at the
1600

[JoVee]

in article , Kurt Albershardt at
wrote on 8/17/04 1:41 AM:

> JoVee wrote:
>> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
>> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and even
>> hi-end horn.
>
> Actually, I prefer the opposite arrangement, where the low-mid cone driver
> works up to 2500-3000 Hz and the horn only kicks in above the vocal range.
> This requires 8" or 10" mids and pretty much ensures use of a sub for a wide
> range of musical styles but results in a more natural-sounding reproduction to
> my ears.
>
> Big bucks and big weight can yield great results with MF horns that cover down
> to 400 Hz or so but those hardly qualify in the category we're discussing.

agreed on the category but the POINT here is good to play with a LITTLE bit
(as we are).
NB: that "8-10inch" driver issue is CRITICAL as they pretty much DONT SHOW
UP in the uses we're talking about here... it's the ubiquitous 12 or 15
that's up there and beaming honkinawful stuff from 500k-2k out the woof and
down the alley and not spread around while the horn does whatever it manages
to do, usually not prettily. Only the GOOD small boxes (Meyer, Clair etc)
that Weigh and Cost make this a Beautiful Thing to Behold (WITH, as you say,
the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.

[JoVee]

FIRST... I'm NOt disagreeing with you on teh points you make, they;re
hifi-dandy ...

in article , reese thomas at
wrote on 8/17/04 8:04 AM:

>> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
>> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and
>> even hi-end horn. The old Peavy SP-2 (based on the Altec studio
>> monitor with the 421 woof and the 511b horn) crossed over not at the
>> usual 1.2kHz but at 800Hz. It's a remarkably smooth and wide system
>> for what it is and indeed was designed as a PLAYBACK speaker.
>>
>
> ??? I have 4 of the original (800 xover, before they changed to 1200) SP2s
> . I have long ago biamped them because a;they blew horns,

I've NEVER blown a diaphragm on an SP2... but I don't push them way hard
without safety compression. YES those drivers are touchy and YES they are
far from perfect but look at the COST. Nuff said there. we're all correct in
our points.


> and b: although
> for the time they sounded ok, they soure sound a lot better at their sweet
> spot (I've found 1600 perfect.) I don't use them often, must modern small
> speakers are lighter and soungd at least equivilent.
>
> BTW In the near field I found a very intrusive 'sort of squished'
> distortion at the original 800 and even the 1200 that dissapeared at the
> 1600

I think the aperture/horn throat wants to be bigger to REALLY make 800 work
BEAUTIFULLY... I still say that system, -even- on the internal passive at
800, sounds smoother overall (INCLUDING way off-axis listening, which is
crucial to teh topic at hand) than most common similar-price (cheap_) 2-way
boxes that try to work too-hi a crossover into a 12 or 15 woof. EV wasn't
stupid with that hi-power 8" midrange cone driver they developed in the late
70's.

[JoVee]

> JoVee wrote:
>> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
>> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and even
>> hi-end horn.
>
> Actually, I prefer the opposite arrangement, where the low-mid cone driver
> works up to 2500-3000 Hz and the horn only kicks in above the vocal range.
> This requires 8" or 10" mids and pretty much ensures use of a sub for a wide
> range of musical styles but results in a more natural-sounding reproduction to
> my ears.
>
> Big bucks and big weight can yield great results with MF horns that cover down
> to 400 Hz or so but those hardly qualify in the category we're discussing.

agreed on the category thing but the POINT here ties, and is good to play
with a LITTLE bit
(as we are).
NB: that "8-10inch" driver issue is CRITICAL as they pretty much DONT SHOW
UP in the uses we're talking about here... it's the ubiquitous 12 or 15
that's up there and beaming honkinawful stuff from 500k-2k out the woof and
down the alley and not spread around while the horn does whatever it manages
to do, usually not prettily. Only the GOOD small boxes (Meyer, Clair etc)
that Weigh and Cost make this a Beautiful Thing to Behold (WITH, as you say,
the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE especially that damned
200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. heck, I'd
rather have a set of those old Macintosh Tower-O-Tweeters systems in these
pubish venues.

a most wonderful thing was a system that combined a big bunch of the Ramsa
10 boxes with one Servodrive monster... everyone smiled deprecatingly during
load and setup... turned it all on and scared the client silly. Same thing
happens regularly with the Clair stuff.

[JoVee]

FIRST... I'm NOT disagreeing with you on the points you make, they;re
hifi-dandy ...

in article , reese thomas at
wrote on 8/17/04 8:04 AM:

>> to make a meaningful comparison here you need to pick the rare speaker
>> system that has an uncommonly low crossover point and a VERY wide and
>> even hi-end horn. The old Peavy SP-2 (based on the Altec studio
>> monitor with the 421 woof and the 511b horn) crossed over not at the
>> usual 1.2kHz but at 800Hz. It's a remarkably smooth and wide system
>> for what it is and indeed was designed as a PLAYBACK speaker.
>>
>
> ??? I have 4 of the original (800 xover, before they changed to 1200) SP2s
> . I have long ago biamped them because a;they blew horns,

I've NEVER blown a diaphragm on an SP2... but I don't push them way hard
without safety compression. YES those drivers are touchy and YES they are
far from perfect but look at the COST. Nuff said there. we're all correct in
our points.


> and b: although
> for the time they sounded ok, they soure sound a lot better at their sweet
> spot (I've found 1600 perfect.) I don't use them often, must modern small
> speakers are lighter and soungd at least equivilent.
>
> BTW In the near field I found a very intrusive 'sort of squished'
> distortion at the original 800 and even the 1200 that dissapeared at the
> 1600

I think the aperture/horn throat wants to be bigger to REALLY make 800 work
BEAUTIFULLY... I still say that system, -even- on the internal passive at
800, sounds smoother overall (INCLUDING way off-axis listening, which is
crucial to teh topic at hand) than most common similar-price (cheap_) 2-way
boxes that try to work too-hi a crossover into a 12 or 15 woof. EV wasn't
stupid with that hi-power 8" midrange cone driver they developed in the late
70's.

[Scott Dorsey]

JoVee > wrote:
>
>agreed on the category but the POINT here is good to play with a LITTLE bit
>(as we are).
>NB: that "8-10inch" driver issue is CRITICAL as they pretty much DONT SHOW
>UP in the uses we're talking about here... it's the ubiquitous 12 or 15
>that's up there and beaming honkinawful stuff from 500k-2k out the woof and
>down the alley and not spread around while the horn does whatever it manages
>to do, usually not prettily. Only the GOOD small boxes (Meyer, Clair etc)
>that Weigh and Cost make this a Beautiful Thing to Behold (WITH, as you say,
>the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
>SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
>200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
>a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.

Sounds like what you want is a set of the Tannoy v12 speakers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Kurt Albershardt]

JoVee wrote:
>
> EV wasn't stupid with that hi-power 8" midrange cone driver they developed
> in the late 70's.
> ...
> Same thing happens regularly with the Clair stuff.


IIRC, the JBL 2123s I favored for much of the '80s were originally developed for the S4.

[Cerion]

> Many Bose systems are designed to be omnidirectional,


Hemispherical actually, me thinks, depending on how they're mounted & what
band one is talking about...
But you get the idea. Their column speakers are designed for very wide
dispersion.

[Cerion]

> Bottom line, its darn hard to move a decent amount of air with drivers
this
> size, even if there are lots of them. All things being equal both
diaphragm
> area and linear displacement go down with diameter. A double whammy, as it
> were.



Bose pro / commercial speaker lines tend to be inefficient and expensive.
I'd say the perfect application for their little column speakers would be
the surround speakers on a theater sound system. Left Center and Right
speakers in any kind of theater larger than someone's living room would
dictate using something with higher efficiency, better directivity and
better -wider- over all response.

Sklerp

[Cerion]

> They'd then have to change the firmware inside the DSP processor, since
there
> is stuff in there that compensates for the driver characteristics.



Myer for example, uses proprietary processing; they can be expensive too.
My personal feeling is that Bose could learn a great deal about design and
performance from Myer and Myer could have learned a lot about marketing from
Bose.


Skearl

[hank alrich]

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> JoVee wrote:

> >> it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array
> >> ...
> >> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts

> > CORRECTION:
> > I may be in error here...
> > I think it might have a 250w amp for
> > --each 1/2 of the pole--
> > I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
> > 2 for the pole and one for the woof

> Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...

The Devil is in the Details and the Details are in the Circuit Breakers.

"Thanks, folks; we'll be back in just a minute..."

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Bottom line, its darn hard to move a decent amount of air with drivers this
> size, even if there are lots of them.

So is this an anorexic Sweet Sixteen?

--
ha

[Doug]

Bottom line is, how does it sound to the customers? Secondary is how
does it sound to the musician, though sounding like it does to the
audience makes the musicians more confident and results in them
sounding better. The biggest problem I have experienced is VOCALS. It
is hard to understand the words to the song. Vocals need the most
attention. Sometimes they do it. I attended a Joni Mitchell concert at
Red Rocks (Denver) and I was astounded how well I could hear her
voice! God what what voice, and what a performance. I have attended
other concerts there and it wasn't nearly as clear. Of course it might
depend on where I was sitting. For Joni I was on the left edge, about
1/2 way up.

I was listening to someone play where I have played, small club, and I
could not figure out many of the words to his songs. They were songs I
had never heard before (his original material). He was kissing the
mic. It was the mix, the PA, and to some extent, his voice. His
acoustic electric Taylor came through just fine. Get me VOCALS,
VOCALS, vocals.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> > Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...
>
> The Devil is in the Details and the Details are in the Circuit Breakers.

As has been said a few times before, this isn't an appropriate system
for a band. I recall when the discussion went around about them
several months back, somoene reported a real trainwreck demo with a
three or four piece famous guys country band in Austin, maybe at the
SXSW festival. But the problem there wasn't AC power, I think it was
drums overpowering speakers or something pretty easy to guess.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[JoVee]

in article , Scott Dorsey at
wrote on 8/17/04 9:22 AM:

> JoVee > wrote:
(SNIP)
>> the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
>> SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
>> 200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
>> a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.
>
> Sounds like what you want is a set of the Tannoy v12 speakers.
> --scott

I've NEVER kicked a Tannpoy out of bed, well not the concentrics anyway...
what's the V12?

[Scott Dorsey]

JoVee > wrote:
>in article , Scott Dorsey at
>wrote on 8/17/04 9:22 AM:
>
>> JoVee > wrote:
>(SNIP)
>>> the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
>>> SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
>>> 200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
>>> a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.
>>
>> Sounds like what you want is a set of the Tannoy v12 speakers.
>
>I've NEVER kicked a Tannpoy out of bed, well not the concentrics anyway...
>what's the V12?

Big concentric 12" PA speaker. They used to make two different models,
one for the installed market and one for the portable market, but they
rolled them both into the V12, which is easily flown but also can just
be used on sticks. Very natural vocal reproduction.

They also have a 15" system that uses a magic processing box, but I do
not think it sounds as natural as the 12".

It's a little more boxy-sounding than the Tannoy studio monitors, but
it's also higher output.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Cerion]

Y'know Bose doesn't publish specs on it's products.

No freq response curves.

No efficiency data.

No polar plots.

See if you can come up with performance specs on Bose stuff, actually
published by Bose. Call 'em up on the phone and see what kind of 'response'
you get from Bose then. Heh heh... :-P

If you were a contractor, would you install speakers with no published
specs? If you were a sound contractor doing live sound, would you use
drivers/cabinets with no published specs for a paying-high dollar show?
How you gonna plot or plan coverage patterns? Hmmm... Guess you'd have to
go to work for Bose and spend some time and bucks to do the tests
yourself...

Myer has likely lost some commercial business for the same reason, though
they do publish specs, they did not publish them on some models.


Skler

[Rob Reedijk]

Rupert > wrote:

> Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing
> particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their
> ability to hype their products.

I think their own products are guilty of hyping themselves. As in overly
hyped sound.

The hugest example here is the Air Canada Centre which is the big 20,000
seat arena in Toronto. They have a big Bose system---which Bose logos
on them so that there is no doubt. It sounds absolutely terrible.
Brittle, hyped, distorted, metallic. Much worse than any movie theatre.
But there is a big segment of the
population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.

Rob R.

[George]

In article >,
Rob Reedijk > wrote:

> Rupert > wrote:
>
> > Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing
> > particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their
> > ability to hype their products.
>
> I think their own products are guilty of hyping themselves. As in overly
> hyped sound.
>
> The hugest example here is the Air Canada Centre which is the big 20,000
> seat arena in Toronto. They have a big Bose system---which Bose logos
> on them so that there is no doubt. It sounds absolutely terrible.
> Brittle, hyped, distorted, metallic. Much worse than any movie theatre.
> But there is a big segment of the
> population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
> same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
>
> Rob R.

Bose wanted to have me out for a demo of the stadium system about 5 or 6
years ago
i declined as I don't get into design at that level it would have not
served either of us

I can tell you one large facility speaker that really works and is
simple to instal is the R series from community
that stuff SLAMS
george

[Scott Dorsey]

Rob Reedijk > wrote:
>Rupert > wrote:
>
>> Seem their giant marketing machine has sucked you in. There is nothing
>> particularly special about their technology. But I do applaud their
>> ability to hype their products.
>
>I think their own products are guilty of hyping themselves. As in overly
>hyped sound.

Well, of course. They build gear with particular response curves that
make them sound very exciting for short listening. That is what makes
them stand out in the store to novice listeners and it sells speakers.

Bose products are designed to sell, not to sound good. The marketing
goes in before the engineering goes on.

>The hugest example here is the Air Canada Centre which is the big 20,000
>seat arena in Toronto. They have a big Bose system---which Bose logos
>on them so that there is no doubt. It sounds absolutely terrible.
>Brittle, hyped, distorted, metallic. Much worse than any movie theatre.
>But there is a big segment of the
>population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
>same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.

Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George]

> >population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
> >same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
>
> Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
> --scott

Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
charge slip
Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
George

[so what]

George wrote:

>>>population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
>>>same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
>>
>>Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
>>--scott
>
>
> Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
> a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
> charge slip
> Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
> find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
> George


I went to K-Mart (GC) and checked them out several months ago. They
sounded OK in the store. But it was funny: they have a big sign
velcroed to the back of the stick, sort of a large cardboard flag, that
caused a horrible midrange flangey effect. I asked him to remove it and
it smoothed right out.

[George]

In article >,
so what > wrote:

> George wrote:
>
> >>>population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
> >>>same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
> >>
> >>Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
> >>--scott
> >
> >
> > Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
> > a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
> > charge slip
> > Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
> > find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
> > George
>
>
> I went to K-Mart (GC) and checked them out several months ago. They
> sounded OK in the store. But it was funny: they have a big sign
> velcroed to the back of the stick, sort of a large cardboard flag, that
> caused a horrible midrange flangey effect. I asked him to remove it and
> it smoothed right out.
>
>

I am talking about a Bose factory outlet store run by bose employees ,
schooled in the Gospel from the Mountain(in framingham)
gorge

[Kurt Albershardt]

George wrote:
>
> one large facility speaker that really works and is
> simple to instal is the R series from community
> that stuff SLAMS

Glancing at the website, I see SON OF LEVIATHAN ;)

[George]

In article >,
Kurt Albershardt > wrote:

> George wrote:
> >
> > one large facility speaker that really works and is
> > simple to instal is the R series from community
> > that stuff SLAMS
>
> Glancing at the website, I see SON OF LEVIATHAN ;)
>
>

kinda like the pocket sized version.LOL
G

[Peter Larsen]

Particle Salad wrote:

[bose stick thingies]

> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult
> at all to roll your own similar system.

I wonder.

> It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:

1) The DSP and its programming.

2) Line array acoustics.

3) Probable reduction in cabinet resonances and flexing due to
relatively small size of cabinets.

> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid
> muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids)

Explanation is a few miles short of any acoustic merit. Low midrange
problems with large (15" or 12") bass loudspeakers are generally caused
by:

a) improper eq or none at all of unit in x-over

b) lack of internal reflection damping in cabinet

c) cabinet wall flexing and resonance

> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors
> unnecessary

Comes for free with all versions of "the Dead Concept", this is a
variation thereof.

> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit

Dunno, if so, covered by "DSP and its programming" above.

> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies

Please stop assuming that it is omnidirectional because it is bass.
Omnidirectionality depends on the relationship between wavelength of
produced sound and cabinet or array front dimensions. This is what
causes the baffle diffraction step frequency response anomaly that all
loudspeaker and loudspeaker stack designs have to consider. See also the
wings on the old cinema horns ... they were there for a very good
reason.

> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar
> system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving
> on them?

No.

> Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of?

I haven't heard it, I can't fairly comment. It appears to be a high tech
approach rather than a simplistic one. Both strategies have each their
own set of merits and "issues".

If you want to obtain similar functionality then selecting a simplistic
low tech route must come to mind, SLS is one of the brands that offer
"something 8 inch", there are other small boxes on the market from other
companies, using a prefab small box is probably simplest.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[billhw13]

I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...

Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

[George]

In article >,
(billhw13) wrote:

> I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
> experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
> opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
> system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
> any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
> all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
>
> Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
> tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

yes but they were outlined in the thread and you seem happy to work
around them
you may be the type of act/musician that this bose product is right for
George

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
billhw13 > wrote:
>I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
>experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
>opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
>system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
>any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
>all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
>
>Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
>tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
backline levels. For acoustic musicians, these may not be problems at all.

Ask your local music store to let you check one out for a day or two and
try it on a gig in an actual room. If it works well for you, buy it. If
it doesn't, don't.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bob Cain]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
> backline levels.

What's a high backline level?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Scott Dorsey]

Bob Cain > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
>> backline levels.
>
>What's a high backline level?

A stack of Marshalls all running at eleven.
--scott

Note that many bands' backline amps produce levels exceeding OSHA standards
for industrial facilities. Yet this is considered normal working conditions
for musicians. That's showbiz.
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George]

In article >,
Bob Cain > wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
> > backline levels.
>
> What's a high backline level?
>
>
> Bob

Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
George

[Scott Dorsey]

George > wrote:
>
>Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations

I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[George]

In article >,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> George > wrote:
> >
> >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>
> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
> --scott


What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
could get 2 for under 400.00
then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
George

[Rupert]

George > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (billhw13) wrote:
>
> > I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
> > experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
> > opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
> > system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
> > any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
> > all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
> >
> > Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
> > tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?
>
> yes but they were outlined in the thread and you seem happy to work
> around them
> you may be the type of act/musician that this bose product is right for
> George

I don't know. I heard these for the first time at a small outdoor art
fair in Culver City, CA. I was hanging out at the first booth from the
"stage" (musicians on the ground with a canopy to keep the sun off).
The upright bassist had one PAS just for himself with a plain ol' SM58
running into it with a sub. This was a very light 4 piece jazz
ensemble. The bassist was by no mean cranking. Yet, the drivers on the
sub were going full tilt, and were bottoming out quite a bit. Now keep
in mind, the was an SM58 a foot off the instrument, and we're not
talking about a mic that can register a lot of bottom. Yet the PAS sub
was not able to handle it at pretty mellow levels. I was highly
unimpressed. The upper end definition was ok, but not exceptional. I'm
sure indoors, the sub would have been more effective. But what kind of
versatility is that?? The keyboard player using a single SRM-450
sounded great, and had the capability for a lot more output if needed.

Rupert

[George]

In article >,
(Rupert) wrote:

> George > wrote in message
> >...
> > In article >,
> > (billhw13) wrote:
> >
> > > I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
> > > experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
> > > opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
> > > system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
> > > any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
> > > all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
> > >
> > > Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
> > > tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?
> >
> > yes but they were outlined in the thread and you seem happy to work
> > around them
> > you may be the type of act/musician that this bose product is right for
> > George
>
> I don't know. I heard these for the first time at a small outdoor art
> fair in Culver City, CA. I was hanging out at the first booth from the
> "stage" (musicians on the ground with a canopy to keep the sun off).
> The upright bassist had one PAS just for himself with a plain ol' SM58
> running into it with a sub. This was a very light 4 piece jazz
> ensemble. The bassist was by no mean cranking. Yet, the drivers on the
> sub were going full tilt, and were bottoming out quite a bit. Now keep
> in mind, the was an SM58 a foot off the instrument, and we're not
> talking about a mic that can register a lot of bottom. Yet the PAS sub
> was not able to handle it at pretty mellow levels. I was highly
> unimpressed. The upper end definition was ok, but not exceptional. I'm
> sure indoors, the sub would have been more effective. But what kind of
> versatility is that?? The keyboard player using a single SRM-450
> sounded great, and had the capability for a lot more output if needed.
>
> Rupert


The acts this Bose system works for are far and few between, but there
will be a market for it for a while
I have been completely unimpressed by it
George

[Scott Dorsey]

George > wrote:
>
>What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
>could get 2 for under 400.00
>then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
>to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)

No, my argument was that if you used a couple Champs as your backline, the
Bose would be more than enough for vocals that need to be heard over the
Champs.

The thing about the Bose is that nobody else in the MI market makes anything
really intended for small acoustic acts. It's a market that was empty, so
Bose filled it. Sure, you could build something that would work better for
less... and if you could get it into music stores some people might buy it.

Come to think of it, whatever happened to the Frazier Cat-40s? That might
not be a bad setup for a singer-songwriter act. I always thought those had
the most natural vocal sound of any horn-loaded system I heard. Not available
at your local music store, mostly because Frazier's marketing guys aren't in
Bose's class.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[anybody-but-bush]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
: George > wrote:
: >
: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
:
: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.


Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.

Good Morning
Phil Abbate or PA to the rest of you.

[anybody-but-bush]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
: George > wrote:
: >
: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
:
: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.


Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.

Good Morning
Phil Abbate or PA to the rest of you.

[anybody-but-bush]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
: George > wrote:
: >
: >What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
: >could get 2 for under 400.00
: >then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
: >to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
:
: No, my argument was that if you used a couple Champs as your backline, the
: Bose would be more than enough for vocals that need to be heard over the
: Champs.


I brought a champ to a blues jam on the Redondo Beach Pier one night. I was playing my harp
through it. I had to put the champ up on a cocktail table and bend over to hear myself over
the band. Drums not miced, bass, guitar and a Leslie/organ completely drowned it out.

I had used it a few days earlier in a garage with a band using electronic drums and a 4x10
bassman amp for bass, and guitar amps with master volumes turned down low. This band was
determined not to bother the neighbors. The champ worked great in this environment.

If the bo$e stick can't get over the champs it is nothing more than a glorified boom box. Oh I
forgot that is what it is.

Phil Abbate

[anybody-but-bush]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
: George > wrote:
: >
: >What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
: >could get 2 for under 400.00
: >then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
: >to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
:
: No, my argument was that if you used a couple Champs as your backline, the
: Bose would be more than enough for vocals that need to be heard over the
: Champs.


I brought a champ to a blues jam on the Redondo Beach Pier one night. I was playing my harp
through it. I had to put the champ up on a cocktail table and bend over to hear myself over
the band. Drums not miced, bass, guitar and a Leslie/organ completely drowned it out.

I had used it a few days earlier in a garage with a band using electronic drums and a 4x10
bassman amp for bass, and guitar amps with master volumes turned down low. This band was
determined not to bother the neighbors. The champ worked great in this environment.

If the bo$e stick can't get over the champs it is nothing more than a glorified boom box. Oh I
forgot that is what it is.

Phil Abbate

[billhw13]

k
>
> The thing about the Bose is that nobody else in the MI market makes anything
> really intended for small acoustic acts. It's a market that was empty, so
> Bose filled it. Sure, you could build something that would work better for
> less... and if you could get it into music stores some people might buy it.
>
Thanks for the advice. After doing some more reading, I'm on the
fence. My ears liked them, but I didn't do a full gig with them..so
some of the issues you folks bring up may be a problem for me too.

The point the keeps bothering me is that many of you say this is
intended for small acoustic acts - which is not my current project.
Right now, I'm in a 4 piece with drums, bass going through a Phil
Jones amp, Keyboards / Organ, and guitar through a 40w amp. We
currently use a Yamaha powered mixer driving JBL Eon's, and use
hotspots or yamaha 12" cab's for monitors.

When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
- the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
acoustic acts?
What am I missing ?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[billhw13]

k
>
> The thing about the Bose is that nobody else in the MI market makes anything
> really intended for small acoustic acts. It's a market that was empty, so
> Bose filled it. Sure, you could build something that would work better for
> less... and if you could get it into music stores some people might buy it.
>
Thanks for the advice. After doing some more reading, I'm on the
fence. My ears liked them, but I didn't do a full gig with them..so
some of the issues you folks bring up may be a problem for me too.

The point the keeps bothering me is that many of you say this is
intended for small acoustic acts - which is not my current project.
Right now, I'm in a 4 piece with drums, bass going through a Phil
Jones amp, Keyboards / Organ, and guitar through a 40w amp. We
currently use a Yamaha powered mixer driving JBL Eon's, and use
hotspots or yamaha 12" cab's for monitors.

When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
- the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
acoustic acts?
What am I missing ?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[George]

In article >,
(billhw13) wrote:

> k
> >
> > The thing about the Bose is that nobody else in the MI market makes
> > anything
> > really intended for small acoustic acts. It's a market that was empty, so
> > Bose filled it. Sure, you could build something that would work better for
> > less... and if you could get it into music stores some people might buy it.
> >
> Thanks for the advice. After doing some more reading, I'm on the
> fence. My ears liked them, but I didn't do a full gig with them..so
> some of the issues you folks bring up may be a problem for me too.
>
> The point the keeps bothering me is that many of you say this is
> intended for small acoustic acts - which is not my current project.
> Right now, I'm in a 4 piece with drums, bass going through a Phil
> Jones amp, Keyboards / Organ, and guitar through a 40w amp. We
> currently use a Yamaha powered mixer driving JBL Eon's, and use
> hotspots or yamaha 12" cab's for monitors.
>
> When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
> vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
> - the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
> was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
> So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
> acoustic acts?
> What am I missing ?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.

like I said if you liked it , it will inspire confidence in your
playing, they have a full money back refund policy
I don't care for them for reason outlined too many times already
but if you liked it and it seemed to work for you I suggest you give it
a real nights work, or perhaps a few nights work
I f you still like it, call it yours
George

[George]

In article >,
(billhw13) wrote:

> k
> >
> > The thing about the Bose is that nobody else in the MI market makes
> > anything
> > really intended for small acoustic acts. It's a market that was empty, so
> > Bose filled it. Sure, you could build something that would work better for
> > less... and if you could get it into music stores some people might buy it.
> >
> Thanks for the advice. After doing some more reading, I'm on the
> fence. My ears liked them, but I didn't do a full gig with them..so
> some of the issues you folks bring up may be a problem for me too.
>
> The point the keeps bothering me is that many of you say this is
> intended for small acoustic acts - which is not my current project.
> Right now, I'm in a 4 piece with drums, bass going through a Phil
> Jones amp, Keyboards / Organ, and guitar through a 40w amp. We
> currently use a Yamaha powered mixer driving JBL Eon's, and use
> hotspots or yamaha 12" cab's for monitors.
>
> When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
> vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
> - the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
> was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
> So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
> acoustic acts?
> What am I missing ?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.

like I said if you liked it , it will inspire confidence in your
playing, they have a full money back refund policy
I don't care for them for reason outlined too many times already
but if you liked it and it seemed to work for you I suggest you give it
a real nights work, or perhaps a few nights work
I f you still like it, call it yours
George

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
anybody-but-bush <Anybody But > wrote:
>
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
>: George > wrote:
>: >
>: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>:
>: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
>: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
>: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
>
>
>Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
>rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
>run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
>the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
>putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.

No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
is not the market they are being sold into.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
anybody-but-bush <Anybody But > wrote:
>
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
>: George > wrote:
>: >
>: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>:
>: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
>: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
>: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
>
>
>Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
>rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
>run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
>the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
>putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.

No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
is not the market they are being sold into.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JoVee]

in article ,
George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:11 PM:

>> What's a high backline level?
>>
>>
>> Bob
>
> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> George

any muso pushing a Twin hard in a pub is nuts, Bose or No-Bose.

"I don't understand what everybody's laughing about,
this is simply a fact... you can't have opinions about facts."

[JoVee]

in article ,
George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:11 PM:

>> What's a high backline level?
>>
>>
>> Bob
>
> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> George

any muso pushing a Twin hard in a pub is nuts, Bose or No-Bose.

"I don't understand what everybody's laughing about,
this is simply a fact... you can't have opinions about facts."

[George]

In article >,
JoVee > wrote:

> in article ,
> George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:11 PM:
>
> >> What's a high backline level?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob
> >
> > Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> > Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> > 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> > George
>
> any muso pushing a Twin hard in a pub is nuts, Bose or No-Bose.
>
>

I never said "in a pub"
these are sold as replacments for pa systems in large theaters as well
as other uses
george

[George]

In article >,
JoVee > wrote:

> in article ,
> George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:11 PM:
>
> >> What's a high backline level?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob
> >
> > Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> > Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> > 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> > George
>
> any muso pushing a Twin hard in a pub is nuts, Bose or No-Bose.
>
>

I never said "in a pub"
these are sold as replacments for pa systems in large theaters as well
as other uses
george

[JoVee]

in article , Scott Dorsey at
wrote on 9/13/04 8:16 PM:

> George > wrote:
>>
>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>
> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
> --scott

A Fender Super Champ, or a Blues Jr, or even a Deluxe, are all great
tonebabies and would indeed be killer-sounding and a great level-match in
anything that the sticks would cut well.

[JoVee]

in article , Scott Dorsey at
wrote on 9/13/04 8:16 PM:

> George > wrote:
>>
>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>
> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
> --scott

A Fender Super Champ, or a Blues Jr, or even a Deluxe, are all great
tonebabies and would indeed be killer-sounding and a great level-match in
anything that the sticks would cut well.

[Scott Dorsey]

billhw13 > wrote:
>
>When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
>vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
>- the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
>was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
>So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
>acoustic acts?
>What am I missing ?

Because when your stage levels start getting high, the way the whole room
is covered (ie. the wide dispersion) becomes a quick path to feedback.
Your question is what sort of stage levels can you get away with in the
sorts of halls that you play in. I can't answer that for you, but an audition
for a couple gigs might.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

billhw13 > wrote:
>
>When I demo'ed the Bose unit, we ran the bass, guitar, keys and 1
>vocal all through 1 system. Like I said, I liked what I heard. Yeah
>- the bass could have been a bit deeper - but what really impressed me
>was the way the room was covered. and no monitors.
>So why do you think this system is limited to a niche for small
>acoustic acts?
>What am I missing ?

Because when your stage levels start getting high, the way the whole room
is covered (ie. the wide dispersion) becomes a quick path to feedback.
Your question is what sort of stage levels can you get away with in the
sorts of halls that you play in. I can't answer that for you, but an audition
for a couple gigs might.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JoVee]

in article ,
George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:29 PM:

> In article >,
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> George > wrote:
>>>
>>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>>
>> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
>> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
>> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
>> --scott
>
>
> What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
> could get 2 for under 400.00
> then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
> to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
> George

I'm cornfoosed, how did this get to the absurd idea of using the Sticks for
electric guitar???
EG belongs in an amp radiating direct to the audience, just like a big box
of resonant wood belongs around a double-bass.
amps come in all sizes for different size venues.

[JoVee]

in article ,
George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:29 PM:

> In article >,
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> George > wrote:
>>>
>>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
>>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
>>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
>>
>> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
>> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
>> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
>> --scott
>
>
> What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
> could get 2 for under 400.00
> then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
> to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
> George

I'm cornfoosed, how did this get to the absurd idea of using the Sticks for
electric guitar???
EG belongs in an amp radiating direct to the audience, just like a big box
of resonant wood belongs around a double-bass.
amps come in all sizes for different size venues.

[George]

In article >,
JoVee > wrote:

> in article ,
> George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:29 PM:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >
> >> George > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> >>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> >>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> >>
> >> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> >> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out
> >> of
> >> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the
> >> PA.
> >> --scott
> >
> >
> > What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
> > could get 2 for under 400.00
> > then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
> > to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
> > George
>
> I'm cornfoosed, how did this get to the absurd idea of using the Sticks for
> electric guitar???
> EG belongs in an amp radiating direct to the audience, just like a big box
> of resonant wood belongs around a double-bass.
> amps come in all sizes for different size venues.
>

Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
presets than your ears
George

[George]

In article >,
JoVee > wrote:

> in article ,
> George at wrote on 9/13/04 8:29 PM:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >
> >> George > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> >>> Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> >>> 2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> >>
> >> I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> >> you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out
> >> of
> >> a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the
> >> PA.
> >> --scott
> >
> >
> > What does a couple of used champs cost, maybe 175$ even new I bet I
> > could get 2 for under 400.00
> > then I would have at least 1600.00 left that I didn't spend on the bose
> > to further my training in appreciation of scotch :-)
> > George
>
> I'm cornfoosed, how did this get to the absurd idea of using the Sticks for
> electric guitar???
> EG belongs in an amp radiating direct to the audience, just like a big box
> of resonant wood belongs around a double-bass.
> amps come in all sizes for different size venues.
>

Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
presets than your ears
George

[Billhw13]

>
>
> Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
> St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
> Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
> presets than your ears
> George

that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
That was kinda weird.

[Billhw13]

>
>
> Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
> St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
> Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
> presets than your ears
> George

that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
That was kinda weird.

[Billhw13]

>
> Because when your stage levels start getting high, the way the whole room
> is covered (ie. the wide dispersion) becomes a quick path to feedback.
> Your question is what sort of stage levels can you get away with in the
> sorts of halls that you play in. I can't answer that for you, but an audition
> for a couple gigs might.
> --scott
>
I see. Thanks Scott.
We try not to be too loud - but I have no idea what that level is in
relation to the feedback of the PAS. Like you said - we'd have to try it.

[Billhw13]

>
> Because when your stage levels start getting high, the way the whole room
> is covered (ie. the wide dispersion) becomes a quick path to feedback.
> Your question is what sort of stage levels can you get away with in the
> sorts of halls that you play in. I can't answer that for you, but an audition
> for a couple gigs might.
> --scott
>
I see. Thanks Scott.
We try not to be too loud - but I have no idea what that level is in
relation to the feedback of the PAS. Like you said - we'd have to try it.

[George]

In article <KCC1d.8237$iS2.4@trnddc09>,
Billhw13 > wrote:

> >
> >
> > Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
> > St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
> > Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
> > presets than your ears
> > George
>
> that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
> by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
> example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
> preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
> That was kinda weird.
>

I encourage you to take it out to a few diffrent clubs and see how you
like it for real
it may be perfect
it may be a disaster or it may fall inbetween for you
George

[George]

In article <KCC1d.8237$iS2.4@trnddc09>,
Billhw13 > wrote:

> >
> >
> > Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
> > St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
> > Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
> > presets than your ears
> > George
>
> that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
> by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
> example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
> preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
> That was kinda weird.
>

I encourage you to take it out to a few diffrent clubs and see how you
like it for real
it may be perfect
it may be a disaster or it may fall inbetween for you
George

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <KCC1d.8237$iS2.4@trnddc09>,
Billhw13 > wrote:
>>
>> Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
>> St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
>> Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
>> presets than your ears
>> George
>
>that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
>by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
>example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
>preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
>That was kinda weird.

That is totally moronic.
But it's not surprising, given Bose's marketing guys.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <KCC1d.8237$iS2.4@trnddc09>,
Billhw13 > wrote:
>>
>> Bose says it is THE solution to all bands sound needs
>> St. Davey insists that backline is not required if you have the Bose SOS
>> Bost tells you things like tone and volume are better handled with thier
>> presets than your ears
>> George
>
>that's true. The rep had us plug directly in, he adjusted some presets
>by looking at a chart and matching it with what we were playing. For
>example, he asked what kind of bass I was playing and he selected the
>preset for that bass from a set of charts. Same for the guitarist.
>That was kinda weird.

That is totally moronic.
But it's not surprising, given Bose's marketing guys.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

This is rather OT, but I couldn't resist.

"Bose -- for the closest reproach to the original sound."

I'm using reproach in its older meaning.

[William Sommerwerck]

This is rather OT, but I couldn't resist.

"Bose -- for the closest reproach to the original sound."

I'm using reproach in its older meaning.

[Michael]

In article >, says...
> In article >,
> anybody-but-bush <Anybody But > wrote:
> >
> >"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
> >: George > wrote:
> >: >
> >: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> >: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> >: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> >:
> >: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> >: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
> >: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
> >
> >
> >Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
> >rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
> >run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
> >the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
> >putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.
>
> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
> is not the market they are being sold into.

No, Scott, that unfortunately IS what they are advertising them for!
Look in any recent issue of most guitar magazines, and you'll see an
ad for Line6/Bose, advertising the use of the Pod, Variax, and this
Bose stick thingy for electric guitar amplification. They show a
diagram of a band playing, with all amplification being handled by a
line of something like 5 to 7 of these sticks behind them. Their
schtick is that regular guitar amps are very "beamy" (which of course
they are), and that this stick disperses sound much more evenly across
the venue. They say nothing of SPL or much of anything else. They
also never mention that in any decent-sized auditorium, most of the
volume comes from the PA, NOT the guitar player's amp; so it is then
distributed, and not beamy as they claim.

[Michael]

In article >, says...
> In article >,
> anybody-but-bush <Anybody But > wrote:
> >
> >"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message ...
> >: George > wrote:
> >: >
> >: >Musicians who foolishly(in boses mind) perfer the sound of a hard driven
> >: >Fender twin tube amp with 2x12 speakers to the sound of a stick full of
> >: >2 and 1/2 inch driver running non adjustable DSP guitar simulations
> >:
> >: I bet the Bose could compete respectably with a couple Champs, though, and
> >: you can get great tone out of a Champ. Hell, you can get great tone out of
> >: a pignose. It wouldn't be very loud, though, not even going through the PA.
> >
> >
> >Okay so lets assume that a silly rich guitar player buys one of the bo$e sticks for his guitar
> >rig. Now he shows up with the stick at my club. Where do I put the mic on the stick so I can
> >run it through the PA? Which mic would I choose? Do you think I will loose the Bose sound or
> >the line array character micing the stick? The damn bo$e folks, when are they going to start
> >putting direct outs on their PA sticks so I don't have to mic them so we can hear them.
>
> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
> is not the market they are being sold into.

No, Scott, that unfortunately IS what they are advertising them for!
Look in any recent issue of most guitar magazines, and you'll see an
ad for Line6/Bose, advertising the use of the Pod, Variax, and this
Bose stick thingy for electric guitar amplification. They show a
diagram of a band playing, with all amplification being handled by a
line of something like 5 to 7 of these sticks behind them. Their
schtick is that regular guitar amps are very "beamy" (which of course
they are), and that this stick disperses sound much more evenly across
the venue. They say nothing of SPL or much of anything else. They
also never mention that in any decent-sized auditorium, most of the
volume comes from the PA, NOT the guitar player's amp; so it is then
distributed, and not beamy as they claim.

[Bob Cain]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
> is not the market they are being sold into.

Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
the job itself?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
> is not the market they are being sold into.

Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
the job itself?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:35:31 -0700, Bob Cain
> wrote:

>Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
>speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
>the job itself?

Balls may turn out to be the nut-cuttin' issue.

Chris Hornbeck
" ** this NG is chock full of metal midgets"

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:35:31 -0700, Bob Cain
> wrote:

>Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
>speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
>the job itself?

Balls may turn out to be the nut-cuttin' issue.

Chris Hornbeck
" ** this NG is chock full of metal midgets"

[Scott Dorsey]

Bob Cain > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
>> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
>> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
>> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
>> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
>> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
>> is not the market they are being sold into.
>
>Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
>speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
>the job itself?

Maybe, but they won't go very loud. I think if you try this (or you try
using the Pod through it), you'll be horribly disappointed. Maybe in a
dry enough room it might be okay.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Bob Cain > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> No. The Bose speakers will not handle electric guitar. They weren't intended
>> for that. They are intended to _replace_ your club PA for vocals, while the
>> backline provides all the guitar sound. They'll handle acoustic guitar and
>> vocal together reasonably well. They aren't _for_ big electric guitar groups
>> in clubs with PA. That's not what they do. Any attempt to use them with a
>> full rock band will be disasterous, but that's not what they are for and that
>> is not the market they are being sold into.
>
>Could they not be used to boost a miced backline just as PA
>speakers are used if the backline doesn't have the balls for
>the job itself?

Maybe, but they won't go very loud. I think if you try this (or you try
using the Pod through it), you'll be horribly disappointed. Maybe in a
dry enough room it might be okay.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Kurt Albershardt]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> whatever happened to the Frazier Cat-40s? That might
> not be a bad setup for a singer-songwriter act. I always thought those had
> the most natural vocal sound of any horn-loaded system I heard. Not available
> at your local music store, mostly because Frazier's marketing guys aren't in
> Bose's class.

Appears to be here <http://www.frazierspeakers.com/c40.htm>

[Kurt Albershardt]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> whatever happened to the Frazier Cat-40s? That might
> not be a bad setup for a singer-songwriter act. I always thought those had
> the most natural vocal sound of any horn-loaded system I heard. Not available
> at your local music store, mostly because Frazier's marketing guys aren't in
> Bose's class.

Appears to be here <http://www.frazierspeakers.com/c40.htm>

[Scott Dorsey]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> whatever happened to the Frazier Cat-40s? That might
>> not be a bad setup for a singer-songwriter act. I always thought those had
>> the most natural vocal sound of any horn-loaded system I heard. Not available
>> at your local music store, mostly because Frazier's marketing guys aren't in
>> Bose's class.
>
>Appears to be here <http://www.frazierspeakers.com/c40.htm>

Yes, and it looks like Frazier still makes a roadable version of the thing
as well. But have you ever actually seen one for sale, or seen one put into
a recent install, or ever seen a Frazier ad in a post-1970 magazine? What
happened?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Kurt Albershardt > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> whatever happened to the Frazier Cat-40s? That might
>> not be a bad setup for a singer-songwriter act. I always thought those had
>> the most natural vocal sound of any horn-loaded system I heard. Not available
>> at your local music store, mostly because Frazier's marketing guys aren't in
>> Bose's class.
>
>Appears to be here <http://www.frazierspeakers.com/c40.htm>

Yes, and it looks like Frazier still makes a roadable version of the thing
as well. But have you ever actually seen one for sale, or seen one put into
a recent install, or ever seen a Frazier ad in a post-1970 magazine? What
happened?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."