Acoustic Piano Recording to Computer

[Frank Mazzola]

Hello. I plan to record my 6'1" Grand Piano with 2 Behrenger B-5
mikes and a Mackie 1202VLZ mixer (I haven't purchased these yet). I
would like to run the signal to an interface card in my computer,
which is 35 feet away. Can anyone advise me on which card would be
best for me? Is a USB interface better?
My computer is about 35' from the piano.
Thanks!
Frank

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Frank Mazzola" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello. I plan to record my 6'1" Grand Piano with 2 Behrenger B-5
> mikes and a Mackie 1202VLZ mixer (I haven't purchased these yet). I
> would like to run the signal to an interface card in my computer,
> which is 35 feet away. Can anyone advise me on which card would be
> best for me? Is a USB interface better?
> My computer is about 35' from the piano.
> Thanks!
> Frank

Do you need all the inputs of the 1202 (either right now or in the future)?
If you're just looking for a stereo unit you might be able to get a
soundcard with some decent preamps which would be easier (and possibly
cheaper depending on what you buy). Not sure if I'd go with the B-5's.

[Laurence Payne]

On 17 Jul 2004 11:31:06 -0700, (Frank Mazzola) wrote:

>Hello. I plan to record my 6'1" Grand Piano with 2 Behrenger B-5
>mikes and a Mackie 1202VLZ mixer (I haven't purchased these yet). I
>would like to run the signal to an interface card in my computer,
>which is 35 feet away. Can anyone advise me on which card would be
>best for me? Is a USB interface better?
>My computer is about 35' from the piano.
>Thanks!
>Frank


The last thing you'll hear is the difference between soundcards (above
a basic level of adequacy) as long as yours has a Line In connection.
What's in there at present?

You'll hear, in order of importance:

Quality of the piano and its player.

Positioning of your microphones and the characteristics of the room.

Type and quality of microphones (again, assuming we're above a basic
adequacy).

Mixer and/or preamps (again.......)



CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Frank Mazzola]

>
> Do you need all the inputs of the 1202 (either right now or in the future)?
> If you're just looking for a stereo unit you might be able to get a
> soundcard with some decent preamps which would be easier (and possibly
> cheaper depending on what you buy). Not sure if I'd go with the B-5's.

Thanks for your reply. I based the 1202 and B-5's on advice I got in
another thread. I may want more inputs later, thought probably not as
manyas the 1202. My friend has a 1402 and love's it. I don't mind
spending the extra money for growth potential later. Any
recommendations you have would be appreciated. You don't like the
B-5's? And which sound card?

-Frank

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Frank Mazzola" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Thanks for your reply. I based the 1202 and B-5's on advice I got in
> another thread. I may want more inputs later, thought probably not as
> manyas the 1202. My friend has a 1402 and love's it. I don't mind
> spending the extra money for growth potential later. Any
> recommendations you have would be appreciated. You don't like the
> B-5's? And which sound card?
>

The only Behringer mics I'm familiar with is the ECM8000 which is good as a
measurement mic so maybe I shouldn't generalize about their mics based on
that. How much are the two B5's going to cost you?

[Ethan Winer]

Frank,

> I would like to run the signal to an interface card in my computer, which
is 35 feet away. <

I'd put the Mackie mixer near the computer, and run long mikes cords rather
than long line level cords.

--Ethan

[Frank Mazzola]

>
> The only Behringer mics I'm familiar with is the ECM8000 which is good as a
> measurement mic so maybe I shouldn't generalize about their mics based on
> that. How much are the two B5's going to cost you?

The B-5's are $110 each on the Behringer website.

[Frank Mazzola]

> The last thing you'll hear is the difference between soundcards (above
> a basic level of adequacy) as long as yours has a Line In connection.
> What's in there at present?
>
> You'll hear, in order of importance:
>
> Quality of the piano and its player.
>
> Positioning of your microphones and the characteristics of the room.
>
> Type and quality of microphones (again, assuming we're above a basic
> adequacy).
>
> Mixer and/or preamps (again.......)
>
Right now I have a Soundblaster Live. I didn't think it would be good
enough, but I'm a novice at this stuff. What about software? Does
that have a bearing on which card to get?
Thanks,
-Frank

[Laurence Payne]

On 18 Jul 2004 06:04:08 -0700, (Frank Mazzola) wrote:

>Right now I have a Soundblaster Live. I didn't think it would be good
>enough, but I'm a novice at this stuff. What about software? Does
>that have a bearing on which card to get?

You can get better. But, as I said, put plenty of other things ahead
of a better sound card.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Jonas Eckerman]

(Frank Mazzola) wrote in
om:

> What about software? Does
> that have a bearing on which card to get?

Yes. You want to get a card with good drivers for the interface your chosen
software uses. If you're software requires ASIO drivers, for example, you
want a card with good stable ASIO drivers. Same goes for WDM etc.

/Jonas

[JoVee]

Frank Mazzola at wrote on 7/18/04 9:04 AM:

>> The last thing you'll hear is the difference between soundcards (above
>> a basic level of adequacy) as long as yours has a Line In connection.
>> What's in there at present?
>>
>> You'll hear, in order of importance:
>>
>> Quality of the piano and its player.
>>
>> Positioning of your microphones and the characteristics of the room.
>>
>> Type and quality of microphones (again, assuming we're above a basic
>> adequacy).
>>
>> Mixer and/or preamps (again.......)
>>
> Right now I have a Soundblaster Live. I didn't think it would be good
> enough, but I'm a novice at this stuff. What about software? Does
> that have a bearing on which card to get?


Again, re-read the above quality issues and the order in which they appear.
I have no prob with the 1202 though if you don;t need all that it does, then
a simple stereo mic preamp might give you better qual;ity (keep in mind that
there's not a thing awful or degrading about the Mackie unl;ess you;re in
the kilobuck golden ears realm) and if, as I assume, you;re looking for a
solo-piano classical sound (the REAL sound if you will) of the instrument,
then I'd reccomend a pair of omni-directional mics (don't know if the
Blechinger's are omni's) and there are several in this price range that are
both from long-established, well-respected microphone designer/mfgrs. There
are also several stereo-mics in the $250-400 range that might do you as
well.


--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

[Garth D. Wiebe]

Frank Mazzola wrote:

> Right now I have a Soundblaster Live. I didn't think it would be good
> enough, but I'm a novice at this stuff. What about software? Does
> that have a bearing on which card to get?
> Thanks,
> -Frank

My advice would be to experiment a bit, temporarily, with your existing
Sound Blaster card, since it already exists and is functional. If there
were issues with the ability of your PC to handle the load, better to
find that out now before buying sound cards for it and finding out your
PC is not going to be able to handle this, for whatever reason. This
also gives you time to research and spend time on figuring out what
sound card you really need and want.

As for software, I like Adobe Audition ($300), personally. But it is
only one of several good brands. Others here can put their plugs in for
the others. Adobe Audition can add reverb if you need it, as well, and
deal with EQ and any other effects with far greater precision than your
mixer.

What I am thinking is that since you are the both the performer and
recording tech, you will want to play several attempts at your piece and
then edit them together. Putting up several takes on the multitrack
display, then going point-and-click back and forth between them to patch
together the optimal piece might be a good approach. Then you end up
with a seamless performance where the software will play the multitrack
session, jumping from one take to the next at exactly the points you
specify. Although it is "multitrack", you end up mixing them down to
two tracks on the computer (i.e. all the "tracks" are targeting the same
sound card output or WAV file).

Doing punch in/out editing, on the other hand, means repeatedly running
35 feet back and forth between computer and piano.

I disagree with the person who said to put the Mackie mixer near the PC.
I feel that it is more prudent to have it near the piano, where you
have arms reach of the analog controls and can see the meters. I don't
think there is an issue running 35 feet of line level output to the PC
sound card.

[Lorin David Schultz]

"JoVee" > wrote in message
...
>
> [...] and if, as I assume, you;re looking for a
> solo-piano classical sound (the REAL sound if you will) of the
instrument,
> then I'd reccomend a pair of omni-directional mics



I'd wanna make sure the room is reasonably good before recommending
omnis. Cardioids might represent a good compromise between soundstage
and BSRS (Bad Sounding Room Syndrome).

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Lorin David Schultz]

"Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote in message
...
>
> I'd put the Mackie mixer near the computer, and run long mikes cords
rather
> than long line level cords.


You would? Why? That seems contrary to "conventional wisdom."

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Ethan Winer]

Lorin,

>> run long mikes cords rather than long line level cords. <<

> You would? Why? <

The two reasons I had in mind are:

* This lets Frank (original poster) plug his mixer into the same AC outlet
as the computer, which reduces the potential for ground loops.

* Since he's asking about sound cards I assume whatever he has now is
unbalanced. So if a long run is needed, it's much better that be between two
balanced devices.

Otherwise, I'd agree with you that it's better to run long line level wires
than mike level.

--Ethan

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:40:14 -0400, Ethan Winer wrote
(in article >):

> Lorin,
>
>>> run long mikes cords rather than long line level cords. <<
>
>> You would? Why? <
>
> The two reasons I had in mind are:
>
> * This lets Frank (original poster) plug his mixer into the same AC outlet
> as the computer, which reduces the potential for ground loops.
>
> * Since he's asking about sound cards I assume whatever he has now is
> unbalanced. So if a long run is needed, it's much better that be between two
> balanced devices.
>
> Otherwise, I'd agree with you that it's better to run long line level wires
> than mike level.
>
> --Ethan
>
>

And the mics should be very far away from the computer noise.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford

[Lorin David Schultz]

"Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote
>
> Lorin,
>
> >> run long mikes cords rather than long line level cords. <<
>
> > You would? Why? <
>
> The two reasons I had in mind are:
>
> * This lets Frank (original poster) plug his mixer into the same AC
outlet
> as the computer, which reduces the potential for ground loops.
>
> * Since he's asking about sound cards I assume whatever he has now is
> unbalanced. So if a long run is needed, it's much better that be
between two
> balanced devices.
>
> Otherwise, I'd agree with you that it's better to run long line level
wires
> than mike level.
>
> --Ethan



Gotcha.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

[Roger W. Norman]

Want the best of both worlds? Put a John Hardy M1 up on stage and drive a
balanced line level signal back to the Mackie! <g> This is done more times
than most people realize in recording live music, if one has the money. I
assume Grace or Great River (amongst any number of brands) pres would work
just as well, but I do know a number of live sound companies that use the
Hardy pres up on stage, and it sounds good.

Some of the guys over at AAPLS have given me a hard time because I base my
signal on the mic pres doing it's job well, whereas some feel that it's
simply enough to bring up the faders to nominal, dial in the trim, and then
you have it. While it works with a large level of lattitude for live sound,
it's not an optimal situation for recording, and after the number of live
shows I've done, I feel totally comfortable with setting the mic pre to work
well with the mic and use the rest of the board to accomodate live sound.
If it means that I'm stuck making a small fader move that runs 5 dB then so
be it. That's what I have fingernails and fingers that curve for (slight
moves representing somewhat large changes). I have had people question what
difference it makes, but my guess is that they haven't seriously listened to
just how different a mic can sound when driven from a good mic pre even in
live work.

But with the mic pres onstage and taking line level to the board, it's
possible to have the best of both worlds, but you need to know your mics.

I also found it interesting that googling "John Hardy M1" brought up John
Rice's Hardy site as #1. Nice of John Rice to continue to support Mr.
Hardy. John Rice also does a great job in a "for hire" drum situations so
I'd suggest any that want a qualified drummer that knows engineering contact
him. He's worth the money.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Lorin David Schultz" > wrote in message
news:PS9Lc.99641$eO.37103@edtnps89...
> "Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote
> >
> > Lorin,
> >
> > >> run long mikes cords rather than long line level cords. <<
> >
> > > You would? Why? <
> >
> > The two reasons I had in mind are:
> >
> > * This lets Frank (original poster) plug his mixer into the same AC
> outlet
> > as the computer, which reduces the potential for ground loops.
> >
> > * Since he's asking about sound cards I assume whatever he has now is
> > unbalanced. So if a long run is needed, it's much better that be
> between two
> > balanced devices.
> >
> > Otherwise, I'd agree with you that it's better to run long line level
> wires
> > than mike level.
> >
> > --Ethan
>
>
>
> Gotcha.
>
> --
> "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
> - Lorin David Schultz
> in the control room
> making even bad news sound good
>
> (Remove spamblock to reply)
>
>

[David Grant]

"Frank Mazzola" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Do you need all the inputs of the 1202 (either right now or in the
future)?
> > If you're just looking for a stereo unit you might be able to get a
> > soundcard with some decent preamps which would be easier (and possibly
> > cheaper depending on what you buy). Not sure if I'd go with the B-5's.
>
> Thanks for your reply. I based the 1202 and B-5's on advice I got in
> another thread. I may want more inputs later, thought probably not as
> manyas the 1202. My friend has a 1402 and love's it.

What's your friend recording with his 1402? Mine was horrible for doing
piano work, and I've had much much better success with my RNP (except that
it just died on me).

[Garth D. Wiebe]

Frank Mazzola wrote:
> Hello. I plan to record my 6'1" Grand Piano with 2 Behrenger B-5
> mikes and a Mackie 1202VLZ mixer (I haven't purchased these yet). I
> would like to run the signal to an interface card in my computer,
> which is 35 feet away. Can anyone advise me on which card would be
> best for me? Is a USB interface better?
> My computer is about 35' from the piano.
> Thanks!
> Frank

Four more things come to mind, in addition to my other post, since you
are new to sound:

1. Make sure to get microphone "boom" stands. This will give you
microphone placement flexibility. These should cost around $35-50 each
at the music store.

2. I looked up that Behringer B-5 on their website. Because it does
not have a shock mount, you must make sure the microphones and boom
stands do not make any physical contact with the piano. If you do not
have a carpet, you should also put one underneath the boom stand legs.

3. You should get a good pair of pro-grade headphones for monitoring
and editing purposes ($100 range, at least). Don't settle for common
consumer grade headphones. Personally, I like the AKG K240DF. You can
find these and others at most music stores.

4. You should not be using consumer-PC speakers for critical listening.
Use at least a good quality home stereo system, if not pro-grade
studio monitors.

[Ethan Winer]

Ty,

> And the mics should be very far away from the computer noise. <

Well, either way the piano and computer are far apart in different rooms.

--Ethan

[Frank Mazzola]

> What's your friend recording with his 1402? Mine was horrible for doing
> piano work, and I've had much much better success with my RNP (except that
> it just died on me).

Interesting. He's recording a Steinway 7' grand piano, and he's a
very accomplished pianist. He is not, however a recording
professional.
-Frank

[Frank Mazzola]

>
> I'd wanna make sure the room is reasonably good before recommending
> omnis. Cardioids might represent a good compromise between soundstage
> and BSRS (Bad Sounding Room Syndrome).

The B-5's have a replaceable head so they can be either omni or cardioid.

[Frank Mazzola]

> 1. Make sure to get microphone "boom" stands. This will give you
> microphone placement flexibility. These should cost around $35-50 each
> at the music store.
>
> 2. I looked up that Behringer B-5 on their website. Because it does
> not have a shock mount, you must make sure the microphones and boom
> stands do not make any physical contact with the piano. If you do not
> have a carpet, you should also put one underneath the boom stand legs.
>
> 3. You should get a good pair of pro-grade headphones for monitoring
> and editing purposes ($100 range, at least). Don't settle for common
> consumer grade headphones. Personally, I like the AKG K240DF. You can
> find these and others at most music stores.
>
> 4. You should not be using consumer-PC speakers for critical listening.
> Use at least a good quality home stereo system, if not pro-grade
> studio monitors.

Thank you for all the excellent advice. My bottom line though is that
I still don't know what soundcard to get. Can anyone make some
suggestions?
-Frank