TapeOp drum mic article

[A. & G. Reiswig]

So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit for
studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.

We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back from
the beater, pointed about the center of the head.

Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
success?

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

[Dave]

I've tried it, and I think it really depends on the kick drum. Doing it that
way makes my kick sound wimpy. I pull the front head off of my kick, and put
a 421 right in the center of where the front head was. I get the best sound
ever.

-Dave


A. & G. Reiswig > wrote in message
...
> So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit
for
> studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on
the
> kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
> more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a
PZM
> in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
> had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.
>
> We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
> and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
> shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
> of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back
from
> the beater, pointed about the center of the head.
>
> Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
> success?
>
> George Reiswig
> Song of the River Music
>
>

[Dave]

I've tried it, and I think it really depends on the kick drum. Doing it that
way makes my kick sound wimpy. I pull the front head off of my kick, and put
a 421 right in the center of where the front head was. I get the best sound
ever.

-Dave


A. & G. Reiswig > wrote in message
...
> So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit
for
> studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on
the
> kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
> more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a
PZM
> in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
> had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.
>
> We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
> and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
> shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
> of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back
from
> the beater, pointed about the center of the head.
>
> Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
> success?
>
> George Reiswig
> Song of the River Music
>
>

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
> kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
> more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
> in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone.

I've used that technique on snare drum. Just point the mic toward the
shell, perpendicular to it (parallel to the heads) It picks up the
sound of the shell, which is the part that actually sounds like a
drum. It doesn't act like a boundary mic at all. Depends on the drum
and the drummer, but I've tried that approach (like you, I read about
it, but long before Tape Op) and I've had sound pretty good. Not a
hard rock sound, but then I don't do hard rock. I wouldn't have
thought it would do much on the shell of a kick drum, however.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
> kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
> more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
> in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone.

I've used that technique on snare drum. Just point the mic toward the
shell, perpendicular to it (parallel to the heads) It picks up the
sound of the shell, which is the part that actually sounds like a
drum. It doesn't act like a boundary mic at all. Depends on the drum
and the drummer, but I've tried that approach (like you, I read about
it, but long before Tape Op) and I've had sound pretty good. Not a
hard rock sound, but then I don't do hard rock. I wouldn't have
thought it would do much on the shell of a kick drum, however.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[andrewunix]

Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:22:21 GMT, suggested:
: So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit for
: studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
: kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
: more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
: in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
: had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.
:
: We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
: and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
: shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
: of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back from
: the beater, pointed about the center of the head.
:
: Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
: success?

Maybe it would work better on the resonant head than the beater head?

--
agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

[andrewunix]

Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:22:21 GMT, suggested:
: So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit for
: studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
: kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
: more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
: in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
: had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.
:
: We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
: and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
: shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
: of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back from
: the beater, pointed about the center of the head.
:
: Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
: success?

Maybe it would work better on the resonant head than the beater head?

--
agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

[ScotFraser]

<< Did I miss something? >>

Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Did I miss something? >>

Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?


Scott Fraser

[A. & G. Reiswig]

It didn't make the distinction either way, Scott. But I guess I assumed
that they meant the beater head. That could certainly be the problem, but I
guess I would expect that placing on the front head would get me bass
without much "impact" to the sound. I guess to make up for that you could
put another mic on the beater, but by the time I do all that I probably
would be just as well off micing the way I did.

C'est la guerre!

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << Did I miss something? >>
>
> Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[A. & G. Reiswig]

It didn't make the distinction either way, Scott. But I guess I assumed
that they meant the beater head. That could certainly be the problem, but I
guess I would expect that placing on the front head would get me bass
without much "impact" to the sound. I guess to make up for that you could
put another mic on the beater, but by the time I do all that I probably
would be just as well off micing the way I did.

C'est la guerre!

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << Did I miss something? >>
>
> Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[Ken / Eleven Shadows]

(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << Did I miss something? >>
>
> Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

Hey, Scott! Good to see you the other weekend!

The article states, "A kick drum is usually mic'ed inside the drum
shell by a large dynamic placed an inch or two off one side of the
shell and pointed more at the shell than the drumhead." So I would
guess that it's the batter head since otherwise it would be pointed in
the opposite direction. I point this out because a verbatim quote of
this statement reveals that the mic is INSIDE the drum shell, not
immediately obvious from the first post.

I've never tried this method before, but may give it a whirl during
the next drum micing session I do.
~~
Ken/Eleven Shadows
http://www.elevenshadows.com
http://www.blueberrybuddha.com

[Ken / Eleven Shadows]

(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << Did I miss something? >>
>
> Did the article refer to miking the batter head or the front head?
>
>
> Scott Fraser

Hey, Scott! Good to see you the other weekend!

The article states, "A kick drum is usually mic'ed inside the drum
shell by a large dynamic placed an inch or two off one side of the
shell and pointed more at the shell than the drumhead." So I would
guess that it's the batter head since otherwise it would be pointed in
the opposite direction. I point this out because a verbatim quote of
this statement reveals that the mic is INSIDE the drum shell, not
immediately obvious from the first post.

I've never tried this method before, but may give it a whirl during
the next drum micing session I do.
~~
Ken/Eleven Shadows
http://www.elevenshadows.com
http://www.blueberrybuddha.com

[PVP9847]

don't bother

[PVP9847]

don't bother

[Jim Kollens]

pvp9847: << don't bother >>

I'm always glad to meet a smart fellow from the new generation. Hi buddy!

[Jim Kollens]

pvp9847: << don't bother >>

I'm always glad to meet a smart fellow from the new generation. Hi buddy!

[ScotFraser]

<< Hey, Scott! Good to see you the other weekend!>>

Likewise. Would have preferred not to have had to drive up & back the same day,
though.

<<The article states, "A kick drum is usually mic'ed inside the drum
shell by a large dynamic placed an inch or two off one side of the
shell and pointed more at the shell than the drumhead." So I would
guess that it's the batter head since otherwise it would be pointed in
the opposite direction. I point this out because a verbatim quote of
this statement reveals that the mic is INSIDE the drum shell, not
immediately obvious from the first post.
>>

I think this explains George's poor results. Since I often mic snare drum by
pointing more at the shell than the head I would have made the same inference,
that the kick was being miked from outside, aiming at the shell.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Hey, Scott! Good to see you the other weekend!>>

Likewise. Would have preferred not to have had to drive up & back the same day,
though.

<<The article states, "A kick drum is usually mic'ed inside the drum
shell by a large dynamic placed an inch or two off one side of the
shell and pointed more at the shell than the drumhead." So I would
guess that it's the batter head since otherwise it would be pointed in
the opposite direction. I point this out because a verbatim quote of
this statement reveals that the mic is INSIDE the drum shell, not
immediately obvious from the first post.
>>

I think this explains George's poor results. Since I often mic snare drum by
pointing more at the shell than the head I would have made the same inference,
that the kick was being miked from outside, aiming at the shell.

Scott Fraser

[KevinHalpin57]

hi - not so "new generation" though - been an engineer in nyc since about 1982

tried the beater head thing 20 years ago - it sucked then as i'm sure it does
now - but... that's just my opinion

[A. & G. Reiswig]

And your secret method of kick drum micing is...?

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

"KevinHalpin57" > wrote in message
...
> hi - not so "new generation" though - been an engineer in nyc since about
1982
>
> tried the beater head thing 20 years ago - it sucked then as i'm sure it
does
> now - but... that's just my opinion

[KevinHalpin57]

no secret - the usual **** - an AKG D12/112 or an RE-20 with a U47 FET - put
'em thru a couple of Neves, add a little stooch ... unless the drummer is dead
set against it, i'll take the front head off and put in a packing blanket with
a weight sitting on top of it - i've only had one guy in 22 years make me keep
the front head on (actually put it back on, as he was late to setup and i
already had taken it off)

[Scott Dorsey]

A. & G. Reiswig > wrote:
>And your secret method of kick drum micing is...?

And, does it sound like a ping-pong ball?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[mr c deckard]

you know, fwiw, i get the best sound on a kick with no front head and
an akg414uls -- a small blanket somewhat dampening the front head.
(of course the tuning has a bit to do with it)


it seems like whenever i put a mic inside the kick with a front head,
it sounds all . . . "phasey" (which makes sense) -- last session i
did, tho, i put the 414 inside on fig 8 -- sounded great. my theory
is that the front head then adds to the sound rather than subtracting
in some way.

chris deckard
saint louis moe



"Dave" > wrote in message t>...
> I've tried it, and I think it really depends on the kick drum. Doing it that
> way makes my kick sound wimpy. I pull the front head off of my kick, and put
> a 421 right in the center of where the front head was. I get the best sound
> ever.
>
> -Dave

[hank alrich]

A. & G. Reiswig wrote:

> So on p. 26 of the latest issue, there's a small article on micing a kit for
> studio. Of most note to me was the suggestion of using a dynamic mic on the
> kick drum, placed "an inch or two off one side of the shell, and pointed
> more at the shell than the drumhead." They claimed that it acted like a PZM
> in this position, and that it was likely to produce a good tone. Well, I
> had a session last night, so what the heck? Let's try it out.

> We put an RE-20 on the pillow near the beater head, kind of in the corner
> and pointed about 60 degrees back from the head (i.e., more toward the
> shell). About all we could hear was mechanical noise from the pedal, some
> of the head, and no oomph at all. It sounded much better about 4" back from
> the beater, pointed about the center of the head.

> Did I miss something? Has anyone else used their suggested placement with
> success?

I haven't read the article, but I suggest an RE20 is not an apt
candidate to be lain on a pillow inside a kick drum. Try again with it
on a short stand, outside the drum, and aimed as described. Consider,
too, putting that second head back on the drum.

--
ha

[philip shaw bova]

In my experience, not every kick drum is the same. Depending on
tuning, the vintage, shell composition..etc... different bass drums do
different things. You can't expect to mic up every bass drum you come
across the same way, and achieve great results. An old 50's/60's 3 ply
ludwig bass drum isn't going to do the same thing as a modern yamaha
bass drum. It's all great and informative to read articles about how
somebody else mic'ed something up, but there's nothing quite like
taking the extra time to try experimenting with what you yourself have
to work with. You might find that micing a particular BD from the
batter side yeilds the best results. Maybe not.....




(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << Hey, Scott! Good to see you the other weekend!>>
>
> Likewise. Would have preferred not to have had to drive up & back the same day,
> though.
>
> <<The article states, "A kick drum is usually mic'ed inside the drum
> shell by a large dynamic placed an inch or two off one side of the
> shell and pointed more at the shell than the drumhead." So I would
> guess that it's the batter head since otherwise it would be pointed in
> the opposite direction. I point this out because a verbatim quote of
> this statement reveals that the mic is INSIDE the drum shell, not
> immediately obvious from the first post.
> >>
>
> I think this explains George's poor results. Since I often mic snare drum by
> pointing more at the shell than the head I would have made the same inference,
> that the kick was being miked from outside, aiming at the shell.
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< unless the drummer is dead
set against it, i'll take the front head off and put in a packing blanket with
a weight sitting on top of it - i've only had one guy in 22 years make me keep
the front head on (actually put it back on, as he was late to setup and i
already had taken it off) >>

I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
their instruments to fit my agenda.


Scott Fraser

[Romeo Rondeau]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...
> << unless the drummer is dead
> set against it, i'll take the front head off and put in a packing blanket
with
> a weight sitting on top of it - i've only had one guy in 22 years make me
keep
> the front head on (actually put it back on, as he was late to setup and i
> already had taken it off) >>
>
> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
> their instruments to fit my agenda.

Some guys come in with some whacked out ****, sometimes you have to step
in... especially if the musician isn't the client.

[ScotFraser]

<< Some guys come in with some whacked out ****, sometimes you have to step
in... especially if the musician isn't the client. >>

Taking the front head off the bass drum is not improving some whacked out ****,
it is fundamentally altering a musician's approach to his instrument. It's no
different than telling a classical guitarist to play with a plectrum, because
you feel the added brightness sounds cool.


Scott Fraser

[hank alrich]

ScotFraser wrote:

> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
> their instruments to fit my agenda.

I hear ya, Scott; but sometimes i ask if I can tune their guitar(s)...
<g>

--
ha

[hank alrich]

ScotFraser wrote:

> It's no different than telling a classical guitarist to play with a
> plectrum, because you feel the added brightness sounds cool.

<j>

So jus' tell 'em it'll sound lots better with Silk 'n' Steel strings and
let 'em still play with their fingers.

</j>

--
ha

[Bob Olhsson]

"ScotFraser" > wrote in message
...

> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
> their instruments to fit my agenda.

Depends on exactly who the client is and what they are trying to achieve.

Years ago there was no such thing as a drum tech so part of being a
recording engineer was knowing how to tune and sometimes even rebuild a set
of drums. Seasoned recording drummers usually walk in with a great sounding
set however drummers who generally play live almost never do. There are also
huge differences in "touch." One setup can really sing yet switching to a
different drummer playing the same kit can utterly suck moments later.

If the agenda is making a great recording, modifying instruments and
performances is an integral part of the job. The same is true of
photography. It's all about creating a convincing illusion so the fact that
the sound is coming from a circle of paper doesn't distract listeners from
enjoying the performance.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

[A. & G. Reiswig]

I always thought my job was to help my clients sound their best and deliver
the best performance. If modifying their drums gets in the way of their
performance, I wouldn't do it. But if it doesn't affect performance and
still sounds better on the recording, I feel like I'm not doing my job if I
don't suggest it.

Then again I'm more of a pradOOcer than an engineer. ;-)

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

> ScotFraser wrote:
>
> > I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not
modify
> > their instruments to fit my agenda.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> In my experience, not every kick drum is the same. Depending on
> tuning, the vintage, shell composition..etc... different bass drums do
> different things. You can't expect to mic up every bass drum you come
> across the same way, and achieve great results. An old 50's/60's 3 ply
> ludwig bass drum isn't going to do the same thing as a modern yamaha
> bass drum.

This is the same with any instrument. You don't expect a Les Paul to
sound like a Stratocaster, to sound like a $39 Silvertone, and so on.
Also, you can put the same guitar in the hands of several different
players, have them each play on the same song without touching the
settings of the amplifier, and you'll get different results.

Session guitarists and guitar players in bands where the guitar sound
is integral with the band's sound often show up with a roadie's van
full of guitars, but drummers tend to show up with "a set of drums" or
use the studio drum set, sometimes changing the cymbals or snare drum,
but rarely does anyone show up for a recording with a few different
kick drums. In fact often they won't even show up with a wrench to
tune the one kick that's there.

No wonder drummers get no respeck.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
> their instruments to fit my agenda.

Not to fit your agenda, but to fit the band's agenda. If they're after
a certain sound and you can't get it as the instrument comes in the
door (in fact, the band may never have achieved it themselves and
that's why they came to you) it's wise to suggest changing the
instrument to one that sounds like what they want to hear rather than
twisting what comes out of the mic to approximate it.

When someone came in to my studio with a big booming Gibson flat top
guitar and asked if I could make it sound like Maybelle Carter's for a
Carter Family song he was singing, I handed him an arch top guitar
from my collection. Simple. He was happy with the sound immediately
and I didn't have to fool around trying to make his guitar sound like
what it wasn't.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[KevinHalpin57]

I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
their instruments to fit my agenda.

Scott Fraser

to fit my agenda? - i thought the musician, the engineer and the producer were
all there for the same purpose - what exactly is "my agenda"

so... i'm assuming you've never put tape or a piece of tissue across a drum
head to get rid of the ring - or oiled a squeky pedal - or asked a guitar
player/bass player to change strings, or for that matter, changed drum heads??

if a drummer comes in with loose hardware that is making noise, or his cymbals
rattle on the stands, should i leave it just so that i can capture "his sound"
- i hardly think so...

i've worked numerous times with steve gadd, steve jordan, shawn pelton, steve
ferone, peter erskine, jon fishman, as well as a hundred other drummers - if
the drummer's not there by the time i'm all mic'ed up, i'll tune the drums also
- again, no complaints - only that one time i mentioned (and in all honesty his
kick drum sounded like **** - a little later during the recording he asked if
we could in fact take the head off, but it was too late by then)

[mr c deckard]

scott, i agree with you but i must mention that it can be more complex
than that. i see my job as capturing the sound and tone the talent
brings in. however, there have been many times that, after listening
in the control room (with the talent), they realize they don't like
their "tone". since the mic essentially captures what is in front of
it, i usually suggest changing something about the instrument itself.

the problem (that it seems you are luckily not faced with!) is that
some of the talent that comes in haven't thoroughly thought through
their tone.

of course, i mostly record art/noise rock where some of the acts are
young and/or unconventional, so the focus isn't always the tone,
unfortunatly.

hmmm. now that i think about it, this means i work harder for less
money in this genre. . .

all the best,
chris deckard
saint louis mo







> Taking the front head off the bass drum is not improving some whacked out ****,
> it is fundamentally altering a musician's approach to his instrument. It's no
> different than telling a classical guitarist to play with a plectrum, because
> you feel the added brightness sounds cool.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[Lou Gimenez]

In my dealing with real professional drummers, If I was having a problem
with getting the kick right, invariably one of the things they would ask me
was if I wanted them to take the front head off
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (ScotFraser)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 11 Jun 2004 07:25:54 GMT
> Subject: Re: TapeOp drum mic article
>
> << Some guys come in with some whacked out ****, sometimes you have to step
> in... especially if the musician isn't the client. >>
>
> Taking the front head off the bass drum is not improving some whacked out
> ****,
> it is fundamentally altering a musician's approach to his instrument. It's no
> different than telling a classical guitarist to play with a plectrum, because
> you feel the added brightness sounds cool.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[Buster Mudd]

(KevinHalpin57) wrote in message >...
> unless the drummer is dead
> set against it, i'll take the front head off and put in a packing blanket with
> a weight sitting on top of it - i've only had one guy in 22 years make me keep
> the front head on


You must not record a lot of jazz musicians...I've lost count of the
number of times I've walked out into the studio after listening to
kick drum soundcheck & before I say a word the drummer has said "I am
*not* taking the front head off!"

[PVP9847]

actually, i've recorded a fair amount of jazz musicians over the years - sorry,
but i totally disregarded the genre when i made my comments - for the most
part, when recording a "jazz" drummer, i usually left the front head on -
except when doing a "fusion" or "CD101 Smooth Jazz" type recording

[tony espinoza]

(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...
> << unless the drummer is dead
> set against it, i'll take the front head off and put in a packing blanket with
> a weight sitting on top of it - i've only had one guy in 22 years make me keep
> the front head on (actually put it back on, as he was late to setup and i
> already had taken it off) >>
>
> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
> their instruments to fit my agenda.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

but scott! not everyone who comes into a studio sounds good! i think
your experience with Kronos and others like them may have you a bit
spoiled. :-)

only about half the drummers that come in here can REALLY tune their
own drums for recording, which means they they sound pretty bad to
begin with.

;-)

-tE

SAN FRANCISCO SOUNDWORKS
www.sfsoundworks.com
* the only SSL 9000J in San Fran

[ScotFraser]

<< I hear ya, Scott; but sometimes i ask if I can tune their guitar(s)...
<g> >>

Yeah, I let them play a take out of tune so I can determine their ability to
hear it, & it they don't catch it I'll just tell them they need to retune their
G before we start rolling the next take.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< If modifying their drums gets in the way of their
performance, I wouldn't do it. But if it doesn't affect performance and
still sounds better on the recording, I feel like I'm not doing my job if I
don't suggest it. >>

Maybe I'm just fortunate to work with players who are already way past figuring
their instrument tuning **** out.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< for the most
part, when recording a "jazz" drummer, i usually left the front head on -
except when doing a "fusion" or "CD101 Smooth Jazz" type recording >>

And the Smooth Jazz or Fusion Jazz thing isn't Jazz anyway.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< but scott! not everyone who comes into a studio sounds good! i think
your experience with Kronos and others like them may have you a bit
spoiled. :-)>>

Agreed. I just spent the week recording Zakir Hussain & I will admit to being
WAY spoiled now.

BTW Tony, the video mix project is still on hold awaiting a final picture edit,
which is awaiting some musical choices from the group. So we're in a holding
pattern. Last I heard yesterday was an inquiry as to whether I can mix it on
our next Europe tour, starting in a couple days.

<<only about half the drummers that come in here can REALLY tune their
own drums for recording, which means they they sound pretty bad to
begin with.>>

Ouch! That's a pretty poor state of affairs for musicianship in general.
Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< In my dealing with real professional drummers, If I was having a problem
with getting the kick right, invariably one of the things they would ask me
was if I wanted them to take the front head off >>

I haven't dealt with any amateur drummers in a very VERY long time, so my
comments are coming from that perspective. To me, a singleheaded bass drum is
as different an instrument from a doubleheaded bass drum, as an electric bass
is from an upright acoustic. I don't tell musicians what their chosen
instrument needs to be. I figure they've got that part figured out before they
come to me.


Scott Fraser

[PVP9847]

i didn't realize you were the one who determined musical catagories - my humble
apologies

i guess dave koz, diana krall, norah jones, chris botti, etc. will have to find
another place to live in record stores...

as well as john mclaughlin, allan holdsworth, chick corea, and miles davis

[Lou Gimenez]

right and if your talking about the role of the kick in straight ahead jazz
which you pronounce as the only "real" jazz, I would never ask a drummer to
take that head off. But the kick has a completely different function.
However in other genre's there have been times where the drummers has
offered to pull the front head, in fact as recently as last week. The
drummer was Tony Galino the owner/ maker of GMS drums. It was a retro
project. As it turned I got what I needed with Tony's help and we didn't pop
the front head off. 99.9% of the time there is no problem but when there is
you have to try everything. I also think comparing the difference between a
double headed kick and a single headed kick to an electric bass and a string
bass is reaching
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (ScotFraser)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 12 Jun 2004 14:54:55 GMT
> Subject: Re: TapeOp drum mic article
>
> << In my dealing with real professional drummers, If I was having a problem
> with getting the kick right, invariably one of the things they would ask me
> was if I wanted them to take the front head off >>
>
> I haven't dealt with any amateur drummers in a very VERY long time, so my
> comments are coming from that perspective. To me, a singleheaded bass drum is
> as different an instrument from a doubleheaded bass drum, as an electric bass
> is from an upright acoustic. I don't tell musicians what their chosen
> instrument needs to be. I figure they've got that part figured out before they
> come to me.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< what exactly is "my agenda">>

The assumption that what you consider a good sounding bass drum takes priority
over what the musician may feel is exactly his signature sound (i.e. the double
head.)

<<so... i'm assuming you've never put tape or a piece of tissue across a drum
head to get rid of the ring ->>

Mmmmm, no.

<< or oiled a squeky pedal ->>

That's maintenance, a completely different subject.

<< or asked a guitar
player/bass player to change strings, or for that matter, changed drum
heads??>>

Would you have told McCartney that basses that go "Boink!" are not good, &
handed him a Precision?

<<if a drummer comes in with loose hardware that is making noise, or his
cymbals
rattle on the stands, should i leave it just so that i can capture "his sound"
- i hardly think so...>>

That's maintenace, a completely different issue, although bad maintenance no
doubt arises from the same province as bad instrument/tuning choice. I'm
talking about professional musicians, who could be expected to have a clue
about developing their sound, chops & axe.




Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< the problem (that it seems you are luckily not faced with!) is that
some of the talent that comes in haven't thoroughly thought through
their tone.>>

Well, that's part of learning to play music. Yes, I guess I'm lucky that
musicians coming to me have figured out how to play & what it is that
constitutes their unique voice. If they haven't & are requesting that you
provide assistance in that realm you really are acting as
producer/mentor/guru/whatever, & that's perfectly valid, if requested. But it
is a different job description.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< right and if your talking about the role of the kick in straight ahead jazz
which you pronounce as the only "real" jazz, I would never ask a drummer to
take that head off. But the kick has a completely different function.>>

Yes, in fact we tend to call it a bass drum, not a kick. A kick drum is
associated with pop/rock & that stylistic approach to playing it.

<< I also think comparing the difference between a
double headed kick and a single headed kick to an electric bass and a string
bass is reaching>>

I don't, but try this instead: A single headed bass drum is as different an
instrument from a double headed bass drum as a Gibson L5 is a different
instrument from a Telecaster.
AND equally non-interchangeable.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< i didn't realize you were the one who determined musical catagories - my
humble
apologies >>


Try asking Pat Metheny if Kenny G is a jazz musician.

Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> i guess dave koz, diana krall, norah jones, chris botti, etc. will have to find
> another place to live in record stores...
>
> as well as john mclaughlin, allan holdsworth, chick corea, and miles davis

Do they all end up in the "smooth jazz" bins? If so, that's pretty
weird.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> The assumption that what you consider a good sounding bass drum takes priority
> over what the musician may feel is exactly his signature sound (i.e. the double
> head.)

If a drummer has a 'signature sound' he'll know if it belongs in the
tune or not, and the drum will sound right. If he just has an
open-front drum, he may not have a 'signature sound' but just saw a
lot of pictures of drums that look like that. After all, how many
drummers really know what their drums sound like from the listener
side? Only those who have recorded and recorded well.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Jedd Haas]

In article >,
(ScotFraser) wrote:

> << i didn't realize you were the one who determined musical catagories - my
> humble
> apologies >>
>
>
> Try asking Pat Metheny if Kenny G is a jazz musician.

Pat Metheny is so irate about Kenny G because most people can't tell them apart.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist
http://www.gallerytungsten.com
http://www.epsno.com

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich > wrote:
>ScotFraser wrote:
>
>> I always thought my job was to record the clients' instruments, not modify
>> their instruments to fit my agenda.
>
>I hear ya, Scott; but sometimes i ask if I can tune their guitar(s)...
><g>

Yes. This weekend I showed a drummer how to tune a trap kit. Since I'm not
very good at all with this, the fact that I knew better than he did was a
really bad sign. Oh, well, it's a festival.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Lou Gimenez]

> << right and if your talking about the role of the kick in straight ahead jazz

> which you pronounce as the only "real" jazz, I would never ask a drummer to
> take that head off. But the kick has a completely different function.>>
Scott fraser said:
>
> Yes, in fact we tend to call it a bass drum, not a kick. A kick drum is
> associated with pop/rock & that stylistic approach to playing it.
>
Gee aren't we being a little condescending. **** You, I just finished
working on a grady tate record, I have an Elvin Jones record coming up from
a live at the blue note show I'm supposed to do. My wife plays alto sax and
worked with Elvin's brother Hank for a week at the Blue Note. I think I'll
call it a kick drum.

> << I also think comparing the difference between a
> double headed kick and a single headed kick to an electric bass and a string
> bass is reaching>>
then scott said
>
> I don't, but try this instead: A single headed bass drum is as different an
> instrument from a double headed bass drum as a Gibson L5 is a different
> instrument from a Telecaster.
> AND equally non-interchangeable.
>
Sorry still reaching, your perspective is from from a straight ahead jazz
thing. They are different colors and while I agree with you concerning a
straight ahead approach, in rock or pop its about what works best in the
track and how the drummer can best make his kick speak.

--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (ScotFraser)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 13 Jun 2004 01:06:29 GMT
> Subject: Re: TapeOp drum mic article
>
> << right and if your talking about the role of the kick in straight ahead jazz
> which you pronounce as the only "real" jazz, I would never ask a drummer to
> take that head off. But the kick has a completely different function.>>
>
> Yes, in fact we tend to call it a bass drum, not a kick. A kick drum is
> associated with pop/rock & that stylistic approach to playing it.
>
> << I also think comparing the difference between a
> double headed kick and a single headed kick to an electric bass and a string
> bass is reaching>>
>
> I don't, but try this instead: A single headed bass drum is as different an
> instrument from a double headed bass drum as a Gibson L5 is a different
> instrument from a Telecaster.
> AND equally non-interchangeable.
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< Gee aren't we being a little condescending. **** You, I just finished
working on a grady tate record, I have an Elvin Jones record coming up from
a live at the blue note show I'm supposed to do. My wife plays alto sax and
worked with Elvin's brother Hank for a week at the Blue Note. I think I'll
call it a kick drum. >>

I'm offering an observation. You seem to have a need to get bent out over that,
but the reality is, the vast majority of jazz drummers call it "bass drum". I
have no agenda about this whatsoever, I'm telling you what terminology the
participants in this art form use. You want to call it a "cake" or a "crescent
wrench", you can do that.


Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Gee aren't we being a little condescending. **** You, I just finished
> working on a grady tate record, I have an Elvin Jones record coming up from
> a live at the blue note show I'm supposed to do. My wife plays alto sax and
> worked with Elvin's brother Hank for a week at the Blue Note. I think I'll
> call it a kick drum.

Many classical violinists call their instrument a fiddle. When you
have achieved the status of Grady Tate or Elvin Jones, you can call
your bass drum whatever you want.

Aren't we being a little defensive?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Buster Mudd]

(ScotFraser) wrote in message >...

> A single headed bass drum is as different an
> instrument from a double headed bass drum as a Gibson L5 is a different
> instrument from a Telecaster.
> AND equally non-interchangeable.
>

I heard a cat in a Boston club some 20-odd years ago playing bebop on
a Telecaster strung up with heavy-guage flatwounds, and I swear if you
closed your eyes it sounded exactly like Wes Montgomery's L5 tone.

[Lou Gimenez]

What I don't dig is your condescending attitude. I don't need you to
instruct me or anyone else on the "proper" terminology for a musical
instrument or what you think "participants in this art form" call a bass
drum. BTW the proper terminology for performers in the jazz idiom is
musicians .
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (ScotFraser)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 14 Jun 2004 16:32:12 GMT
> Subject: Re: TapeOp drum mic article
>
> << Gee aren't we being a little condescending. **** You, I just finished
> working on a grady tate record, I have an Elvin Jones record coming up from
> a live at the blue note show I'm supposed to do. My wife plays alto sax and
> worked with Elvin's brother Hank for a week at the Blue Note. I think I'll
> call it a kick drum. >>
>
> I'm offering an observation. You seem to have a need to get bent out over
> that,
> but the reality is, the vast majority of jazz drummers call it "bass drum". I
> have no agenda about this whatsoever, I'm telling you what terminology the
> participants in this art form use. You want to call it a "cake" or a "crescent
> wrench", you can do that.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< I heard a cat in a Boston club some 20-odd years ago playing bebop on
a Telecaster strung up with heavy-guage flatwounds, and I swear if you
closed your eyes it sounded exactly like Wes Montgomery's L5 tone. >>

Yeah, there's a jazz guitarist here in LA who plays a Telecaster & gets a great
tone, & I'm sure somewhere in Nashville there's a guy playing rockabilly on an
L5. However, I was trying to make the point to the guy who was objecting to my
typifying a single headed bass drum as a very different instrument than a
double headed bass drum that they sound different, are played differently &
generally find themselves in different genres, thus requiring a different
approach for each, i.e. <<the double headed drum sounds bad, let's take the
front head off>> means you are fundamentally changing the instrument, not just
its sound.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< This weekend I showed a drummer how to tune a trap kit. Since I'm not
very good at all with this, the fact that I knew better than he did was a
really bad sign. >>

A REALLY bad sign.



Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< What I don't dig is your condescending attitude.>>

Nothing condescending intended, but if you need to take it that way, that's
your choice.

<< I don't need you to
instruct me or anyone else on the "proper" terminology for a musical
instrument>>

I mentioned common usage, not propriety. Again, if that's a problem for you,
that's your choice, I'm not foisting anything on you.

<< or what you think "participants in this art form" call a bass
drum. >>

People who work on cars have certain names for the parts of an engine. I don't
argue with them about that. I accept it as part of their scene.

<<BTW the proper terminology for performers in the jazz idiom is
musicians . >>

Finally the fact that you're so much smarter than me pays off. I didn't know
that.


Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I mentioned common usage, not propriety. Again, if that's a problem for you,
> that's your choice, I'm not foisting anything on you.

This Gimenez guy needs to get Glaid.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Lou Gimenez]

well now you do
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



> From: (ScotFraser)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> Date: 14 Jun 2004 21:32:44 GMT
> Subject: Re: TapeOp drum mic article
>
> << What I don't dig is your condescending attitude.>>
>
> Nothing condescending intended, but if you need to take it that way, that's
> your choice.
>
> << I don't need you to
> instruct me or anyone else on the "proper" terminology for a musical
> instrument>>
>
> I mentioned common usage, not propriety. Again, if that's a problem for you,
> that's your choice, I'm not foisting anything on you.
>
> << or what you think "participants in this art form" call a bass
> drum. >>
>
> People who work on cars have certain names for the parts of an engine. I don't
> argue with them about that. I accept it as part of their scene.
>
> <<BTW the proper terminology for performers in the jazz idiom is
> musicians . >>
>
> Finally the fact that you're so much smarter than me pays off. I didn't know
> that.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< This Gimenez guy needs to get Glaid.
>>


Maybe an anger management class too?

Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> << This Gimenez guy needs to get Glaid.

> Maybe an anger management class too?

Or a good travel agent. He keeps asking me what planet I'm from. Maybe
he wants to visit.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[ScotFraser]

<< He keeps asking me what planet I'm from. Maybe
he wants to visit. >>


You can't get there from here.

Scott Fraser

[maxdm]

Thin shelled mahogany drums such as WFL's will probably react better
than thick modern drums, since they were not built for power, but for
maximum resonance.