Better mic choice for my vocals?

[V Silly]

Hi guys,
I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
buzzy quality.

I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
mode.

Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
likely soucre of my trouble?

Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer

Appreciate your input,
-V

[**bg**]

"V Silly" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V
--------------------------

Rent a few mics, try them out.

I recommend an SM58. see http://www.shure.com/microphones/models/sm58.asp

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[**bg**]

"V Silly" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V
--------------------------

Rent a few mics, try them out.

I recommend an SM58. see http://www.shure.com/microphones/models/sm58.asp

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 2:04:50 -0400, V Silly wrote
(in message >):

> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

Two thoughts;

1. When you belt it over excites the room, causing the room ring to be heard.
For that a tighter patterned mic ,ay be useful. I solved the problem by using
a Schoeps cmc641 for vocals.

2. The buzziness may be distortion in your vocal chords that happens when you
push past a certain loudness level. That's a performance thing, and quite
audible.

Try to express yourself with "acting" instead of just volume. It's more
difficult, but will fix both problem simultaneously.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 2:04:50 -0400, V Silly wrote
(in message >):

> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

Two thoughts;

1. When you belt it over excites the room, causing the room ring to be heard.
For that a tighter patterned mic ,ay be useful. I solved the problem by using
a Schoeps cmc641 for vocals.

2. The buzziness may be distortion in your vocal chords that happens when you
push past a certain loudness level. That's a performance thing, and quite
audible.

Try to express yourself with "acting" instead of just volume. It's more
difficult, but will fix both problem simultaneously.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Arny Krueger]

V Silly wrote:
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.

It couldn't be your voice, could it?

[Arny Krueger]

V Silly wrote:
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.

It couldn't be your voice, could it?

[Garth]

In article >,
(V Silly) writes:

>Hi guys,
>I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
>to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
>order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
>close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
>ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
>out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
>I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
>buzzy quality.
>
>I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
>mode.
>
>Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble?
>
>Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
>Appreciate your input,
>-V
>

I dont have too much experience with 414s but I doubt that the mic is the
source of the problem unless its malfunctioning. With the pad you should be
able to avoid overloading the mic itself even if you are singing very loud and
very close. One thing you could do as an experiment is print a signal quite
low, say -20 dB and be sure to go straight from mic to preamp to disc. If you
dont hear the distortion then the mic is not the problem.

Its also problem that the "buzzy" sound you refer to could simply be stridency
in your voice when you sing loud. I cant know without hearing the problem
myself. The 414 is known as a bright and edgy mic and if your voice is bright
or for other reasons isnt a good match for it then this could be the cause.

A darker mic could be the answer. Perhaps a ribbon mic such as the Royer or a
Beyer M500 or M260. A dynamic such as an RE20 or MD421 is definitely going to
be able to handle the SPL and would eliminate the mic as the source of any
audible distortion.
Why dont you rent some mics and experiment?

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[Garth]

In article >,
(V Silly) writes:

>Hi guys,
>I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
>to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
>order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
>close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
>ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
>out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
>I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
>buzzy quality.
>
>I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
>mode.
>
>Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble?
>
>Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
>Appreciate your input,
>-V
>

I dont have too much experience with 414s but I doubt that the mic is the
source of the problem unless its malfunctioning. With the pad you should be
able to avoid overloading the mic itself even if you are singing very loud and
very close. One thing you could do as an experiment is print a signal quite
low, say -20 dB and be sure to go straight from mic to preamp to disc. If you
dont hear the distortion then the mic is not the problem.

Its also problem that the "buzzy" sound you refer to could simply be stridency
in your voice when you sing loud. I cant know without hearing the problem
myself. The 414 is known as a bright and edgy mic and if your voice is bright
or for other reasons isnt a good match for it then this could be the cause.

A darker mic could be the answer. Perhaps a ribbon mic such as the Royer or a
Beyer M500 or M260. A dynamic such as an RE20 or MD421 is definitely going to
be able to handle the SPL and would eliminate the mic as the source of any
audible distortion.
Why dont you rent some mics and experiment?

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[hank alrich]

V Silly wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.

> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.

Using a comp can bring up lower level detail that escapes notice when
the signal is uncompressed. In this case it could be that the buzz is a
low level element in your voice when driven hard and becomes evident
when the dynamic range is reduced by compression.

It could also be that when you belt, there is enough sound in the room
that even with you close to the mic there is bleed that is not well
time-aligned with your direct voice signal into the mic, and that could
cause what you're hearing.

> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?

Others have given at least two good options here, first try a darker
mic, like the Beyer M500, secondly try hypercardioids, like Schoeps CMC6
w/MK41 cap, to which I'd add the Sennheiser MD441, which is a dynamic
with a very condenser-like sound, extended top end, terrific SPL
handling ability and a very tight pattern.

And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
something like a Millennia or Great River.

Perhaps you could rent some of this stuff before spending money.

--
ha

> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

[hank alrich]

V Silly wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.

> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.

Using a comp can bring up lower level detail that escapes notice when
the signal is uncompressed. In this case it could be that the buzz is a
low level element in your voice when driven hard and becomes evident
when the dynamic range is reduced by compression.

It could also be that when you belt, there is enough sound in the room
that even with you close to the mic there is bleed that is not well
time-aligned with your direct voice signal into the mic, and that could
cause what you're hearing.

> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?

Others have given at least two good options here, first try a darker
mic, like the Beyer M500, secondly try hypercardioids, like Schoeps CMC6
w/MK41 cap, to which I'd add the Sennheiser MD441, which is a dynamic
with a very condenser-like sound, extended top end, terrific SPL
handling ability and a very tight pattern.

And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
something like a Millennia or Great River.

Perhaps you could rent some of this stuff before spending money.

--
ha

> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

[Scott Dorsey]

V Silly > wrote:
>I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
>to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
>order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
>close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
>ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
>out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
>I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
>buzzy quality.

You need to fix the room.

>I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
>mode.
>
>Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble?

Well, you can try an RE-20, which is about as immune to that sort of thing
as anything ever made. Or a 421 for that matter. If you hear the same
thing with either, you'll know it's not the mike.

But you still need to fix the room.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

V Silly > wrote:
>I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
>to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
>order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
>close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
>ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
>out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
>I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
>buzzy quality.

You need to fix the room.

>I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
>mode.
>
>Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble?

Well, you can try an RE-20, which is about as immune to that sort of thing
as anything ever made. Or a 421 for that matter. If you hear the same
thing with either, you'll know it's not the mike.

But you still need to fix the room.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

hank alrich wrote:

> And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
> something like a Millennia or Great River.

Forgot to mention another very worthy preamp at far lower cost, the RNP
from FMR, a perfect match to your RNC.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

hank alrich wrote:

> And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
> something like a Millennia or Great River.

Forgot to mention another very worthy preamp at far lower cost, the RNP
from FMR, a perfect match to your RNC.

--
ha

[ScotFraser]

<< >Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble? >>

I don't feel the C414 is "prone to distortion". I have never heard a voice
distort a C414 & I've owned a pair for about 15 years. Then again I haven't
heard the Audio Upgrades mod that you have. I think the issue is elsewhere.
Maybe you could define the "buzz" you're getting.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< >Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>likely soucre of my trouble? >>

I don't feel the C414 is "prone to distortion". I have never heard a voice
distort a C414 & I've owned a pair for about 15 years. Then again I haven't
heard the Audio Upgrades mod that you have. I think the issue is elsewhere.
Maybe you could define the "buzz" you're getting.


Scott Fraser

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
ScotFraser > wrote:
><< >Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>>likely soucre of my trouble? >>
>
>I don't feel the C414 is "prone to distortion". I have never heard a voice
>distort a C414 & I've owned a pair for about 15 years. Then again I haven't
>heard the Audio Upgrades mod that you have. I think the issue is elsewhere.
>Maybe you could define the "buzz" you're getting.

The C414 does have a very pitched-up top end, which will exaggerate the
buzziness in your voice if it's there. Or the room, for that matter.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article >,
ScotFraser > wrote:
><< >Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
>>would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
>>likely soucre of my trouble? >>
>
>I don't feel the C414 is "prone to distortion". I have never heard a voice
>distort a C414 & I've owned a pair for about 15 years. Then again I haven't
>heard the Audio Upgrades mod that you have. I think the issue is elsewhere.
>Maybe you could define the "buzz" you're getting.

The C414 does have a very pitched-up top end, which will exaggerate the
buzziness in your voice if it's there. Or the room, for that matter.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Wulfye]

I have the Jim williams moded 414 also, I doubt very much it's the mic that
distorts. I belt out full volume into it at 2-3 inches of it and it don't
distort and I have a very loud voice. And this mic is not bright compared to
all the new breed of mics out there. The JW mod definitely improves a few
things on it. I would tend to think that it's your preamp causing the buzzy
quality when you belt out causing the input to go too hot. I 'd bring down
the gain. See if that's your problem...


"V Silly" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

[Wulfye]

I have the Jim williams moded 414 also, I doubt very much it's the mic that
distorts. I belt out full volume into it at 2-3 inches of it and it don't
distort and I have a very loud voice. And this mic is not bright compared to
all the new breed of mics out there. The JW mod definitely improves a few
things on it. I would tend to think that it's your preamp causing the buzzy
quality when you belt out causing the input to go too hot. I 'd bring down
the gain. See if that's your problem...


"V Silly" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys,
> I have been using a C414BULS w/ the Jim Williams mod in my home studio
> to record my own vocals (female). The problem I am having is that in
> order to eliminate the unpleasant sound of my room I have to be pretty
> close to the mic. I have tried all sorts of crazy angles and different
> ways of backing off the mic. No matter what I do if I really belt it
> out the mic seems to be slightly buzzy, which I assume is distortion.
> I have eliminated the rest of my signal path as the source of the
> buzzy quality.
>
> I have tried using the PAD at -10 as well as an RNC comp on super nice
> mode.
>
> Now I am wondering if there is some other kind of mic I could try that
> would be less prone to distortion than the C414? Or is this even the
> likely soucre of my trouble?
>
> Signal path is C414>Metric Halo ULN2>Digital Performer
>
> Appreciate your input,
> -V

[Ty Ford]

The 414 is known as a bright and edgy mic

INSERT When plugged into preamps that make it sound that way. INSERT

and if your voice is bright or for other reasons isnt a good match for it
then this could be the cause.

[Ty Ford]

The 414 is known as a bright and edgy mic

INSERT When plugged into preamps that make it sound that way. INSERT

and if your voice is bright or for other reasons isnt a good match for it
then this could be the cause.

[Ty Ford]

> And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
> something like a Millennia or Great River.
>
> Perhaps you could rent some of this stuff before spending money.
>
> --
> ha

Bingo! A GML and a 414 are a nice combination. A Neve (xformer) and a 414
also do well.

Regads,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

> And as an owner of an MIO 2882+DSP, I'd also try another preamp,
> something like a Millennia or Great River.
>
> Perhaps you could rent some of this stuff before spending money.
>
> --
> ha

Bingo! A GML and a 414 are a nice combination. A Neve (xformer) and a 414
also do well.

Regads,

Ty Ford

[V Silly]

Thanks for all the good suggestions!
I love this newsgroup...
:-)
-V

[V Silly]

Thanks for all the good suggestions!
I love this newsgroup...
:-)
-V

[Lee Salter]

I'll second the notion that your room probably needs some acoustical treatment.

Lee Salter

[Lee Salter]

I'll second the notion that your room probably needs some acoustical treatment.

Lee Salter

[dub-d_mtl_achip?-achop?.prod]

(Lee Salter) wrote in message >...
> I'll second the notion that your room probably needs some acoustical treatment.
>
> Lee Salter

of course acousatical is important, my opinion is, those kind of
firewire interfaces, just like the motu 828 the preamp on it is only a
combo preamp, you should get yourself a better mic preamp, even more
for femal voices, see focusrite for preamp, they have great solution
from 4000$ to less than a thousand $....

My advice, use your Metric Halo only as a converter, with a good mic
preamp even if your acoustic suck, you should get a better signal!

hope this is helpfull for you

dub-d

[dub-d_mtl_achip?-achop?.prod]

(Lee Salter) wrote in message >...
> I'll second the notion that your room probably needs some acoustical treatment.
>
> Lee Salter

of course acousatical is important, my opinion is, those kind of
firewire interfaces, just like the motu 828 the preamp on it is only a
combo preamp, you should get yourself a better mic preamp, even more
for femal voices, see focusrite for preamp, they have great solution
from 4000$ to less than a thousand $....

My advice, use your Metric Halo only as a converter, with a good mic
preamp even if your acoustic suck, you should get a better signal!

hope this is helpfull for you

dub-d

[Bob]

M500 dark??? I find it rather shrillish (on loud female vocals tht is)....

regards,
Bob

/snip/
> A darker mic could be the answer. Perhaps a ribbon mic such as the Royer
or a
> Beyer M500 or M260. A dynamic such as an RE20 or MD421 is definitely going
to
> be able to handle the SPL and would eliminate the mic as the source of any
> audible distortion.
> Why dont you rent some mics and experiment?
>
> Garth~
>
>

[Bob]

M500 dark??? I find it rather shrillish (on loud female vocals tht is)....

regards,
Bob

/snip/
> A darker mic could be the answer. Perhaps a ribbon mic such as the Royer
or a
> Beyer M500 or M260. A dynamic such as an RE20 or MD421 is definitely going
to
> be able to handle the SPL and would eliminate the mic as the source of any
> audible distortion.
> Why dont you rent some mics and experiment?
>
> Garth~
>
>