Cheap ceiling treatment for the non-handy

[SRS]

My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
transmission from the ceiling.

The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
that there's little or no insulation.

New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.

What would you do?

Scott
(no, not that Scott)

..

[hank alrich]

SRS wrote:

> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.

> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.

> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.

> What would you do?

What style(s) of music will be played in your room? Acoustic folk kinda
stuff? Balls-in-a-basket bass-heavy mega-SPL kinda stuff?

--
ha

[hank alrich]

SRS wrote:

> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.

> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.

> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.

> What would you do?

What style(s) of music will be played in your room? Acoustic folk kinda
stuff? Balls-in-a-basket bass-heavy mega-SPL kinda stuff?

--
ha

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:23:35 GMT, SRS >
wrote:

>My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
>where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
>inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
>not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
>directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
>transmission from the ceiling.
>
>The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
>that there's little or no insulation.
>
>New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
>too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
>so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
>What would you do?

What happens in the master bedroom that makes so much noise?
Especially when you're NOT in the master bedroom? :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:23:35 GMT, SRS >
wrote:

>My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
>where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
>inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
>not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
>directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
>transmission from the ceiling.
>
>The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
>that there's little or no insulation.
>
>New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
>too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
>so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
>What would you do?

What happens in the master bedroom that makes so much noise?
Especially when you're NOT in the master bedroom? :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[ScotFraser]

<< What happens in the master bedroom that makes so much noise?
Especially when you're NOT in the master bedroom? >>

I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to sleep.
Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it helps of
ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< What happens in the master bedroom that makes so much noise?
Especially when you're NOT in the master bedroom? >>

I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to sleep.
Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it helps of
ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.


Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< I need to do _something_ to cut down
transmission from the ceiling. The existing ceiling is only 7' high,
skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
that there's little or no insulation.
What would you do?>>

There is nothing you can add to the ceiling that will cut sound transmission
from your studio space into the upstairs room. Even ripping out the drywall &
replacing it with a few layers hung from resilient channel will at best buy a
few db improvement. Floating the upstairs floor on rubber channels will help,
but doesn't address structure borne transmission through the studs. I think you
need to establish an hours of operation policy.

Scott Fraser

[ScotFraser]

<< I need to do _something_ to cut down
transmission from the ceiling. The existing ceiling is only 7' high,
skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
that there's little or no insulation.
What would you do?>>

There is nothing you can add to the ceiling that will cut sound transmission
from your studio space into the upstairs room. Even ripping out the drywall &
replacing it with a few layers hung from resilient channel will at best buy a
few db improvement. Floating the upstairs floor on rubber channels will help,
but doesn't address structure borne transmission through the studs. I think you
need to establish an hours of operation policy.

Scott Fraser

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, use headphones when someone in the master bedroom is asleep. It will
save your marriage! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"SRS" > wrote in message
y.com...
> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.
>
> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I
know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Scott
> (no, not that Scott)
>
> .
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, use headphones when someone in the master bedroom is asleep. It will
save your marriage! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"SRS" > wrote in message
y.com...
> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.
>
> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I
know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Scott
> (no, not that Scott)
>
> .
>

[Laurence Payne]

On 03 Jun 2004 17:22:19 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:

>I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to sleep.
>Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it helps of
>ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.

Ah yes. Those spousal edicts can get noisy.


CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Laurence Payne]

On 03 Jun 2004 17:22:19 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:

>I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to sleep.
>Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it helps of
>ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.

Ah yes. Those spousal edicts can get noisy.


CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[SRS]

> What style(s) of music will be played in your room? Acoustic folk
> kinda stuff? Balls-in-a-basket bass-heavy mega-SPL kinda stuff?
>
> --
> ha
>

Dumb of me to not tell @ first -- some acoustic, some electric, nothing
that rattles things (much)

S

[SRS]

> What style(s) of music will be played in your room? Acoustic folk
> kinda stuff? Balls-in-a-basket bass-heavy mega-SPL kinda stuff?
>
> --
> ha
>

Dumb of me to not tell @ first -- some acoustic, some electric, nothing
that rattles things (much)

S

[xy]

your ceiling is already low=limitations.

i'd look into some used "whisper rooms". will cost a few thousand.
they come in different sizes. those things do a great job of sound
isolation from sound coming in and out. they also have powered air
venting. they make pretty big ones. big enough for a drummer. so
mabye two: one to fit a drummer and the other to fit a guitar amp/
vocal overdub. they would probably just squeeze under the 7' height
restiction. and they disassemble so you could get it down into your
basement.

so maybe $4000 on a used drum size one and $1900-2100 on a used vocal
booth size.

not sure if that fits your budget. but if you want to crank it under
the restrictions you are indicating, i see few other realistic and
effective options.

[xy]

your ceiling is already low=limitations.

i'd look into some used "whisper rooms". will cost a few thousand.
they come in different sizes. those things do a great job of sound
isolation from sound coming in and out. they also have powered air
venting. they make pretty big ones. big enough for a drummer. so
mabye two: one to fit a drummer and the other to fit a guitar amp/
vocal overdub. they would probably just squeeze under the 7' height
restiction. and they disassemble so you could get it down into your
basement.

so maybe $4000 on a used drum size one and $1900-2100 on a used vocal
booth size.

not sure if that fits your budget. but if you want to crank it under
the restrictions you are indicating, i see few other realistic and
effective options.

[S O'Neill]

SRS wrote:

> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.
>
> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
> What would you do?


You might try particle board about 1" thick all over the wall to get more wall
density (higher acoustical impedance). That would tend to reflect the sound
back into your room, probably hurt the room acoustics but block the sound into
the MBR. Space it from the sheetrock for added effectiveness. If it makes the
room boomy, that means it's working.

The ceiling is probably another good place to add this, since the space above it
is also above the MBR (I'm guessing) and makes a nice pipe into the other rooms,
plus there's only one layer of sheetrock there.

It fits the primary design criteria: real cheap and probably effective.
Certainly a first-approximation. But you should use fender washers and lag
bolts into the studs/joists so it doesn't come crashing down.

[S O'Neill]

SRS wrote:

> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.
>
> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.
>
> What would you do?


You might try particle board about 1" thick all over the wall to get more wall
density (higher acoustical impedance). That would tend to reflect the sound
back into your room, probably hurt the room acoustics but block the sound into
the MBR. Space it from the sheetrock for added effectiveness. If it makes the
room boomy, that means it's working.

The ceiling is probably another good place to add this, since the space above it
is also above the MBR (I'm guessing) and makes a nice pipe into the other rooms,
plus there's only one layer of sheetrock there.

It fits the primary design criteria: real cheap and probably effective.
Certainly a first-approximation. But you should use fender washers and lag
bolts into the studs/joists so it doesn't come crashing down.

[Animix]

I have been edicted upon occasion.

;O)

"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On 03 Jun 2004 17:22:19 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:
>
> >I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to
sleep.
> >Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it
helps of
> >ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.
>
> Ah yes. Those spousal edicts can get noisy.
>
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Animix]

I have been edicted upon occasion.

;O)

"Laurence Payne" > wrote in message
...
> On 03 Jun 2004 17:22:19 GMT, (ScotFraser) wrote:
>
> >I bet the issue is studio activity disrupting the spouse's attempts to
sleep.
> >Around here a domestic curfew of 11:00pm solved that one. Of course it
helps of
> >ones partner is skilled at the imposition of spousal edicts.
>
> Ah yes. Those spousal edicts can get noisy.
>
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[offpeak808]

Yup. add the 1' of sheet rock as mentioned above, but you'll need to cut out
the boominess and can absorb even more sound with some cheap fiberglass
panels.

Order some Corning 704 fiberglass in panels (about the size of a twin
mattress) enough to be about 6-10" thick. Measure your room, and make enough
of these panels to cover about 50% of the surface area. Make little cheap
frames for them out of thin plywood, and cover in some cheap burlap or
cloth. This will take care of the boominess, and absorb a lot of sound.
Should sound pretty good. If you want to get better absorption, try to mount
these panels a few inches away from the wall. Will double your low end
effectiveness.

Then you got to take care of your door and window(s). Double paned 1/4 inch
sealed glass for the window if you can afford it. And maybe you can also
cover with some kind of thinner shutter type contraption made the same way
as above. The door has to be solid wood, and air sealed as best as possible.
Use all that thermal sealer edge insulation stuff like you do on the front
door when you like in a cold place.

Think of your room as a sound aquarium. No leaks, less sound gets out.

Here's some info for DIY: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm

This method will probably cost about $1000 total for supplies, a decent
window, and paying someone to do it for you. Otherwise you will have
scratchy hands for weeks.

[offpeak808]

Yup. add the 1' of sheet rock as mentioned above, but you'll need to cut out
the boominess and can absorb even more sound with some cheap fiberglass
panels.

Order some Corning 704 fiberglass in panels (about the size of a twin
mattress) enough to be about 6-10" thick. Measure your room, and make enough
of these panels to cover about 50% of the surface area. Make little cheap
frames for them out of thin plywood, and cover in some cheap burlap or
cloth. This will take care of the boominess, and absorb a lot of sound.
Should sound pretty good. If you want to get better absorption, try to mount
these panels a few inches away from the wall. Will double your low end
effectiveness.

Then you got to take care of your door and window(s). Double paned 1/4 inch
sealed glass for the window if you can afford it. And maybe you can also
cover with some kind of thinner shutter type contraption made the same way
as above. The door has to be solid wood, and air sealed as best as possible.
Use all that thermal sealer edge insulation stuff like you do on the front
door when you like in a cold place.

Think of your room as a sound aquarium. No leaks, less sound gets out.

Here's some info for DIY: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm

This method will probably cost about $1000 total for supplies, a decent
window, and paying someone to do it for you. Otherwise you will have
scratchy hands for weeks.

[Peter Larsen]

SRS wrote:

> My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.

> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation.

OK, let's talk floor treatment in the bedroom instead. It may be easier
to do something there.

> New house is sucking up available $$ at an alarming rate, so can't spend
> too much but can spend some and I am about the least "handy" person I know,
> so I am loathe to tear anything out if I can help it.

> What would you do?

Ask over in alt.sci.physics.acoustics, less traffic and many people who
know the options and the applicable wizardry ... which is why I added a
crosspost and a "followup to:" pointing thataway.

Newbies please note that adding a "followup to:" header means that
followup's will be directed to that group only and not be visible here
in rec.audio.pro. "Some" software makes it easier to change such headers
than "some other" software ...

> Scott
> (no, not that Scott)
>
> .

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[WillStG]

<< SRS >>
<< My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
transmission from the ceiling.

The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
that there's little or no insulation. >>

If you go to http://www.homasote.com/sb.html and click/download the pdf
of the "Sweets Catalog" which has supposedly independently tested applications
of Homasote in sound applications, you can see ideas of how you might be able
to get a STC 53 rating between your basement and the room above. But STC50
just means you can't hear loud conversation, STC53 may not be enough to make a
big enough diferrence to make it worth your while as an investment, you might
better spend your money making the room *sound* good than trying to keep the
sound from getting out.

Anyway basically you install homosote between the carpet pad and the floor
in the room above, and gypsum on resilient channel on the joists in the
basement. You might be able to attach resilient channel right through your
existing sheetrock ceiling into the joists and then add the second layer of
sheetrock, and two layers does help some. You can also get as much as STC66
sideways with a decoupled double wall system, the inmost wall having Homasote
attached to resilient channel and gypsum attached to the Homasote (but not to
the studs or resilient channels).

If you add decoupled walls you could also "float" the ceiling on the inner
walls, creating a "room in a room". But your room would be even smaller then!
So probably broadband absorbtion on the walls and maybe some bass traps in the
corners would be a better use of money, because your room is borderline big
enough to treat for acoustics/make sound good inside already.

My brother and I once built a "room in a room" in a small hotel room
sized space like yours once, sand filled fiberglass stuffed in the floated on
rubber pucks walls and ceiling and custom gobos built to shove into the 8"x2"
big ass window frames, soundlock between double doors (inner door just a huge
gobo deal!). It actually knocked down traffic noise in Midtown Manhattan to a
low enough level for rock and roll anyway, and the neighbors were less annoyed,
but it was a bit of work. Quiet enough for percussion tracks, in context.

Maybe you should just build a garage out of Concrete block or ICF
"Insulated Concrete Forms" and use that?

Good luck.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[normanstrong]

"WillStG" > wrote in message
...
> << SRS >>
> << My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space
approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face
non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces
outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room
is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to
cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it
appears
> that there's little or no insulation. >>

You should probably read "How to Build a Small Budget Recording Studio
from scratch" by Shea & Everest.

A more complete discussion of acoustic design is "Master Handbook of
Acoustics", this one by Everest alone.

Both books are trade paperbacks.

Norm Strong

[Buster Mudd]

There are some attractive STC claims (as well as interesting warnings
about the unliklihood of resiliant channel to perform as advertised)
at http://www.quietsolution.com Especially check out their QuietRock
drywall & QuetWood plywood.


(WillStG) wrote in message >...
> << SRS >>
> << My wife and I just moved into a new house. I have a space approx. 16x13
> where I can put my "studio" (more a practice room). Two walls face non-
> inhabited space (basement stairway, laundry room), one faces outside. I'm
> not terribly worried about sound getting into the room, but the room is
> directly beneath the master bedroom. I need to do _something_ to cut down
> transmission from the ceiling.
>
> The existing ceiling is only 7' high, skin-coated sheetrock and it appears
> that there's little or no insulation. >>
>
> If you go to http://www.homasote.com/sb.html and click/download the pdf
> of the "Sweets Catalog" which has supposedly independently tested applications
> of Homasote in sound applications, you can see ideas of how you might be able
> to get a STC 53 rating between your basement and the room above. But STC50
> just means you can't hear loud conversation, STC53 may not be enough to make a
> big enough diferrence to make it worth your while as an investment, you might
> better spend your money making the room *sound* good than trying to keep the
> sound from getting out.
>
> Anyway basically you install homosote between the carpet pad and the floor
> in the room above, and gypsum on resilient channel on the joists in the
> basement. You might be able to attach resilient channel right through your
> existing sheetrock ceiling into the joists and then add the second layer of
> sheetrock, and two layers does help some. You can also get as much as STC66
> sideways with a decoupled double wall system, the inmost wall having Homasote
> attached to resilient channel and gypsum attached to the Homasote (but not to
> the studs or resilient channels).
>
> If you add decoupled walls you could also "float" the ceiling on the inner
> walls, creating a "room in a room". But your room would be even smaller then!
> So probably broadband absorbtion on the walls and maybe some bass traps in the
> corners would be a better use of money, because your room is borderline big
> enough to treat for acoustics/make sound good inside already.
>
> My brother and I once built a "room in a room" in a small hotel room
> sized space like yours once, sand filled fiberglass stuffed in the floated on
> rubber pucks walls and ceiling and custom gobos built to shove into the 8"x2"
> big ass window frames, soundlock between double doors (inner door just a huge
> gobo deal!). It actually knocked down traffic noise in Midtown Manhattan to a
> low enough level for rock and roll anyway, and the neighbors were less annoyed,
> but it was a bit of work. Quiet enough for percussion tracks, in context.
>
> Maybe you should just build a garage out of Concrete block or ICF
> "Insulated Concrete Forms" and use that?
>
> Good luck.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits