completely basic analog summer...would this work?

[xy]

hello everyone,

i came up with an "idea" based on what people were saying about the
Folcrom.

here's the idea:
1) for the "left side" you take 8 wires and put 1/4" ends on them
(maybe solder them to a patch pay harness?)
2) then you keep "y-cabling" them down...twisting the wires, solder,
electrical tape to cover them 8-4-2-1
3) you do this on the "right side" too
4) then you solder 1/4" ends on each.
5) then you run it into a direct input on a preamp.

if that won't work..start with XLR cables and keep y-cabling them down
and then you end up with balanced xlr's on the left-right to go into
the DI/preamp

there would be no panning options other than ganging a pair of l/r
wires from the start of the tree. but i think it would work?

[Tim Padrick]

You need resistors in there to keep the sources from driving each others'
outputs. http://www.rane.com/note109.html

"xy" > wrote in message
om...
> hello everyone,
>
> i came up with an "idea" based on what people were saying about the
> Folcrom.
>
> here's the idea:
> 1) for the "left side" you take 8 wires and put 1/4" ends on them
> (maybe solder them to a patch pay harness?)
> 2) then you keep "y-cabling" them down...twisting the wires, solder,
> electrical tape to cover them 8-4-2-1
> 3) you do this on the "right side" too
> 4) then you solder 1/4" ends on each.
> 5) then you run it into a direct input on a preamp.
>
> if that won't work..start with XLR cables and keep y-cabling them down
> and then you end up with balanced xlr's on the left-right to go into
> the DI/preamp
>
> there would be no panning options other than ganging a pair of l/r
> wires from the start of the tree. but i think it would work?

[Tim Padrick]

You need resistors in there to keep the sources from driving each others'
outputs. http://www.rane.com/note109.html

"xy" > wrote in message
om...
> hello everyone,
>
> i came up with an "idea" based on what people were saying about the
> Folcrom.
>
> here's the idea:
> 1) for the "left side" you take 8 wires and put 1/4" ends on them
> (maybe solder them to a patch pay harness?)
> 2) then you keep "y-cabling" them down...twisting the wires, solder,
> electrical tape to cover them 8-4-2-1
> 3) you do this on the "right side" too
> 4) then you solder 1/4" ends on each.
> 5) then you run it into a direct input on a preamp.
>
> if that won't work..start with XLR cables and keep y-cabling them down
> and then you end up with balanced xlr's on the left-right to go into
> the DI/preamp
>
> there would be no panning options other than ganging a pair of l/r
> wires from the start of the tree. but i think it would work?

[Arny Krueger]

xy wrote:

> there would be no panning options other than ganging a pair of l/r
> wires from the start of the tree. but i think it would work?

Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
futility.

[Arny Krueger]

xy wrote:

> there would be no panning options other than ganging a pair of l/r
> wires from the start of the tree. but i think it would work?

Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
futility.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> futility.

Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
that would be interesting.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> futility.

Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
that would be interesting.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Walter Harley > wrote:

> "Tim Padrick" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You need resistors in there to keep the sources from driving each others'
> > outputs. http://www.rane.com/note109.html
>
> Yep. And be aware that your noise rejection ability (from balanced signal
> reception) is only as good as the impedance matching of the two sides. So
> you probably want to hand-match the resistors on the + and - legs, to get
> better than 1% (40dB) precision. There's probably a note about that on
> either the Rane or Jensen site.


Yes. For the Folcrom we hand match down to 0.1%.

ulysses

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Walter Harley > wrote:

> "Tim Padrick" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You need resistors in there to keep the sources from driving each others'
> > outputs. http://www.rane.com/note109.html
>
> Yep. And be aware that your noise rejection ability (from balanced signal
> reception) is only as good as the impedance matching of the two sides. So
> you probably want to hand-match the resistors on the + and - legs, to get
> better than 1% (40dB) precision. There's probably a note about that on
> either the Rane or Jensen site.


Yes. For the Folcrom we hand match down to 0.1%.

ulysses

[Buster Mudd]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
>
> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> futility.

Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
do would be futile?

[Buster Mudd]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
>
> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> futility.

Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
do would be futile?

[Arny Krueger]

Buster Mudd wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >...
>>
>> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
>> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a
>> study in futility.
>
> Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
> would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
> do would be futile?

Neither.

Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?

[Arny Krueger]

Buster Mudd wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >...
>>
>> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
>> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a
>> study in futility.
>
> Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
> would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
> do would be futile?

Neither.

Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?

[transducr]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> > analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> > futility.
>
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.

ha! i thought the exact same thing.

i think it would make a great 80s teen sex-farce film.

[transducr]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> > analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> > futility.
>
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.

ha! i thought the exact same thing.

i think it would make a great 80s teen sex-farce film.

[unitron]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> > analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> > futility.
>
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.


Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
Sony PCM machine.

[unitron]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that adding an
> > analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a study in
> > futility.
>
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.


Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
Sony PCM machine.

[Buster Mudd]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
> Buster Mudd wrote:
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > >...
> >>
> >> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
> >> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a
> >> study in futility.
> >
> > Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
> > would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
> > do would be futile?
>
> Neither.
>
> Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?

No, I'd prefer if you just clarify your original vague statement.

[Buster Mudd]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
> Buster Mudd wrote:
> > "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> > >...
> >>
> >> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
> >> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is a
> >> study in futility.
> >
> > Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
> > would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims to
> > do would be futile?
>
> Neither.
>
> Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?

No, I'd prefer if you just clarify your original vague statement.

[Arny Krueger]

Buster Mudd wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >...
>> Buster Mudd wrote:
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>>>
>>>> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
>>>> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is
>>>> a study in futility.
>>>
>>> Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
>>> would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims
>>> to do would be futile?
>>
>> Neither.
>>
>> Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?
>
> No, I'd prefer if you just clarify your original vague statement.

If you have DAW software that is intelligently designed, splicing in an
analog summer is a giant step backwards, in terms of accuracy. For the
longest time Pro Tools arguably created this market with their brain-dead
implementation of a DAW mixing buss. But now, even they have cleaned up
their act.

[Arny Krueger]

Buster Mudd wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> >...
>> Buster Mudd wrote:
>>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>>>
>>>> Apparently you didn't get the part where it was pointed out that
>>>> adding an analog summer to a DAW setup based on modern software is
>>>> a study in futility.
>>>
>>> Do you mean that hearing the alleged advantages of analog summing
>>> would be futile, or that building a summer that does what it claims
>>> to do would be futile?
>>
>> Neither.
>>
>> Wanna try again, this time with realistic alternatives?
>
> No, I'd prefer if you just clarify your original vague statement.

If you have DAW software that is intelligently designed, splicing in an
analog summer is a giant step backwards, in terms of accuracy. For the
longest time Pro Tools arguably created this market with their brain-dead
implementation of a DAW mixing buss. But now, even they have cleaned up
their act.

[Paul Stamler]

"unitron" > wrote in message
om...

> Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
> the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
> Sony PCM machine.

My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was recorded
on a 3M digital machine. Am I hallucinating?

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"unitron" > wrote in message
om...

> Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
> the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
> Sony PCM machine.

My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was recorded
on a 3M digital machine. Am I hallucinating?

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Paul Stamler wrote:

> My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was recorded
> on a 3M digital machine.

Yes, as I recall from reading about it.

> Am I hallucinating?

You're asking _me_?

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Paul Stamler wrote:

> My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was recorded
> on a 3M digital machine.

Yes, as I recall from reading about it.

> Am I hallucinating?

You're asking _me_?

--
ha

[Arny Krueger]

Paul Stamler wrote:
> "unitron" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
>> the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
>> Sony PCM machine.
>
> My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was
> recorded on a 3M digital machine. Am I hallucinating?

No, you're not hallucinating. It was done on a 3M digital recorder:

http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2001_08.html

"The Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop album was the first digitally recorded pop
album. It was recorded on the 3M 32-track digital recorder at Amigo studios
in North Hollywood California. We booked the Village Recorder in 1981 to cut
tracks for Nightfly and decided to try the 3M digital machine. We ran a
Studer A-80 24-track analog machine in parallel with the 3M for the test.
After the band laid down a take we performed an a-b-c listening test. The
analog and digital machines were played back in sync while the band played
along live. We could compare the analog machine, the digital machine, and
the live band. The closest sound to the live band was the 3M digital
machine. We re-aligned the Studer and gave it one more chance. The 3M was
the clear winner. We rolled the Studer out into the street, (just kidding)
and did the rest of the recording on the 3M 32-track machine. When it came
time to mix, we mixed to the 3M 4-track machine."

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/24/index1.html

"This fact was brought home to me some eight years ago, when I bought Ry
Cooder's Bop Till You Drop CD (Warner Bros. 03358-2), which was recorded in
1979 with an early 3M digital machine."

http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=14

"...the recording was done on the old 3M system which samples at 50kHz and
is considered by many engineers (Roy Halee, Shawn Murphy, Glenn Meadows) to
be good sounding digital."

[Arny Krueger]

Paul Stamler wrote:
> "unitron" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> Yeah, my first thought was that an analog summer would have been in
>> the middle of the year before that Ry Cooder album was done on that
>> Sony PCM machine.
>
> My recollection was that the Cooder album ("Bop Til You Drop") was
> recorded on a 3M digital machine. Am I hallucinating?

No, you're not hallucinating. It was done on a 3M digital recorder:

http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2001_08.html

"The Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop album was the first digitally recorded pop
album. It was recorded on the 3M 32-track digital recorder at Amigo studios
in North Hollywood California. We booked the Village Recorder in 1981 to cut
tracks for Nightfly and decided to try the 3M digital machine. We ran a
Studer A-80 24-track analog machine in parallel with the 3M for the test.
After the band laid down a take we performed an a-b-c listening test. The
analog and digital machines were played back in sync while the band played
along live. We could compare the analog machine, the digital machine, and
the live band. The closest sound to the live band was the 3M digital
machine. We re-aligned the Studer and gave it one more chance. The 3M was
the clear winner. We rolled the Studer out into the street, (just kidding)
and did the rest of the recording on the 3M 32-track machine. When it came
time to mix, we mixed to the 3M 4-track machine."

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/24/index1.html

"This fact was brought home to me some eight years ago, when I bought Ry
Cooder's Bop Till You Drop CD (Warner Bros. 03358-2), which was recorded in
1979 with an early 3M digital machine."

http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=14

"...the recording was done on the old 3M system which samples at 50kHz and
is considered by many engineers (Roy Halee, Shawn Murphy, Glenn Meadows) to
be good sounding digital."

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you have DAW software that is intelligently designed, splicing in an
> analog summer is a giant step backwards, in terms of accuracy.

Not a giant step, but one that's becoming less necessary as software
designs improve.

Now if we were talking about an analog console rather than a simple
summing device, that would be another story. Consoles have personality
that aren't well emulated in software. Often the hit taken in
converting to analog is more than compensated for by the creativity of
an engineer in a room full of real mixing hardware.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> If you have DAW software that is intelligently designed, splicing in an
> analog summer is a giant step backwards, in terms of accuracy.

Not a giant step, but one that's becoming less necessary as software
designs improve.

Now if we were talking about an analog console rather than a simple
summing device, that would be another story. Consoles have personality
that aren't well emulated in software. Often the hit taken in
converting to analog is more than compensated for by the creativity of
an engineer in a room full of real mixing hardware.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[NewYorkDave]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.

I thought the same thing, too. That's how I'd like to spend my summer
vacation... but then again, I'm a freak.

Regarding mixing networks, I drew this chart which some might find
helpful:
http://electronicdave.myhosting.net/miscimages/mixnetwork.gif

--Dave

[NewYorkDave]

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
> that would be interesting.

I thought the same thing, too. That's how I'd like to spend my summer
vacation... but then again, I'm a freak.

Regarding mixing networks, I drew this chart which some might find
helpful:
http://electronicdave.myhosting.net/miscimages/mixnetwork.gif

--Dave

[Arny Krueger]

NewYorkDave wrote:
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
>> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
>> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
>> that would be interesting.

Sounds like no fun at all.

> I thought the same thing, too. That's how I'd like to spend my summer
> vacation... but then again, I'm a freak.
>
> Regarding mixing networks, I drew this chart which some might find
> helpful:
> http://electronicdave.myhosting.net/miscimages/mixnetwork.gif

For reasonable values of R, any reasonably well-crafted modern digital
summer (48 bit sum of 24 bit numbers or 32 bit floating point) can be
expected to outperform.

[Arny Krueger]

NewYorkDave wrote:
> (Mike Rivers) wrote in message
> news:<znr1086175003k@trad>...
>> Oh. I read this as a "Totally Analog Summer" like maybe he was going
>> to spend the next three months recording with nothing digital. Now
>> that would be interesting.

Sounds like no fun at all.

> I thought the same thing, too. That's how I'd like to spend my summer
> vacation... but then again, I'm a freak.
>
> Regarding mixing networks, I drew this chart which some might find
> helpful:
> http://electronicdave.myhosting.net/miscimages/mixnetwork.gif

For reasonable values of R, any reasonably well-crafted modern digital
summer (48 bit sum of 24 bit numbers or 32 bit floating point) can be
expected to outperform.

[xy]

wow...resistors. i still stink at electronics! i wouldn't have
guessed that.

i remember in high school i would get A's on just about every
math/science computational thing. but when it came to the electricity
stuff in physics class, i would sweat just to get a B or C.

i believe the cognitive researchers who say people's brains are wired
up with individual categories of strengths and weaknesses. i wasn't
"absent when god passed out brains". but i think he might have been
running a bit low on the "electronics" voxels when he did my brain and
decided to leave it out.

[xy]

wow...resistors. i still stink at electronics! i wouldn't have
guessed that.

i remember in high school i would get A's on just about every
math/science computational thing. but when it came to the electricity
stuff in physics class, i would sweat just to get a B or C.

i believe the cognitive researchers who say people's brains are wired
up with individual categories of strengths and weaknesses. i wasn't
"absent when god passed out brains". but i think he might have been
running a bit low on the "electronics" voxels when he did my brain and
decided to leave it out.