Overtly political. Ignore if easily offended

[Chris Hornbeck]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet

Chris Hornbeck

[Cossie]

"Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
...
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latime
sts/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet
>
> Chris Hornbeck

A tragedy, indeed. But something doesn't smell right about this article. I
admit I didn't read the whole thing, but upon scanning most of it I noticed
that it was dated yesterday (Saturday, May, 29), but included the following:

"Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) learned about Turner's dilemma and stepped
in to help. Previously, Kennedy, the USO and Sen. John F. Kerry, another
Massachusetts Democrat, helped Turner's family"

Does it seem odd to anyone else that Kerry would be identified in this way
in a current political article? I may be barking up a tree here, but the
fact that his identity had to be explained at all, and that said explanation
didn't mention that he's the Democratic Presidential nominee (let's not get
technical about the nomination not being officical yet) just doesn't sound
legit.

NOT that I want to take issue with the general message its trying to get
across.

[Cossie]

"Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
...
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latime
sts/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet
>
> Chris Hornbeck

A tragedy, indeed. But something doesn't smell right about this article. I
admit I didn't read the whole thing, but upon scanning most of it I noticed
that it was dated yesterday (Saturday, May, 29), but included the following:

"Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) learned about Turner's dilemma and stepped
in to help. Previously, Kennedy, the USO and Sen. John F. Kerry, another
Massachusetts Democrat, helped Turner's family"

Does it seem odd to anyone else that Kerry would be identified in this way
in a current political article? I may be barking up a tree here, but the
fact that his identity had to be explained at all, and that said explanation
didn't mention that he's the Democratic Presidential nominee (let's not get
technical about the nomination not being officical yet) just doesn't sound
legit.

NOT that I want to take issue with the general message its trying to get
across.

[Roger W. Norman]

"Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
...
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet
>
> Chris Hornbeck

I've spoken on this a number of times here, and even wrote a song about it
in the mid-80s, called The Ballad of Wolfman, who was a well known homeless
man sleeping on grates here in DC until they found him dead of exposure, ran
a fingerprint check and found him to be a Medal of Honor winner in 'Nam. He
apparently never even attempted to try to get compensation (MOH winners
receive $1000 per month for life) or medical treatment from the Bureau of
Veteran's Affairs (now the Veteran's Administration) and just took to living
on the streets. In all of the service organization meetings I've attended
(Purple Heart, American Legion, Veterans of Foriegn Wars, and my own
organization, AMVets) there are tales of known veterans living the in the
vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
humans.

With this prolonged use of Reservists and National Guard, even jobs are no
longer available that, by law, as supposed to be available to returning "on
active duty" Guardsmen and Reservists. The average enlisted man below E5 is
qualified by income to be on welfare, even including seperate rats. VA
support of returning vets has been cut by this President's last two budgets
by 2.5 Billion dollars per year causing VA hospitals to be closed all over
the US. Guardsmen also aren't entitled to the same benefits that active
military are, thereby costing the government much less money to use them
than Active Duty personnel.

I'd suggest anyone interested in learning about how badly this
administration is actually treating our troops to check into Col. David
Hackworth's website www.sftt.org for further information.

--


Roger W. Norman
Past Eastern District Commander, State of VA, AMVets.

[Roger W. Norman]

"Chris Hornbeck" > wrote in message
...
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040529/ts_latimes/fromtherankstothestreet
>
> Chris Hornbeck

I've spoken on this a number of times here, and even wrote a song about it
in the mid-80s, called The Ballad of Wolfman, who was a well known homeless
man sleeping on grates here in DC until they found him dead of exposure, ran
a fingerprint check and found him to be a Medal of Honor winner in 'Nam. He
apparently never even attempted to try to get compensation (MOH winners
receive $1000 per month for life) or medical treatment from the Bureau of
Veteran's Affairs (now the Veteran's Administration) and just took to living
on the streets. In all of the service organization meetings I've attended
(Purple Heart, American Legion, Veterans of Foriegn Wars, and my own
organization, AMVets) there are tales of known veterans living the in the
vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
humans.

With this prolonged use of Reservists and National Guard, even jobs are no
longer available that, by law, as supposed to be available to returning "on
active duty" Guardsmen and Reservists. The average enlisted man below E5 is
qualified by income to be on welfare, even including seperate rats. VA
support of returning vets has been cut by this President's last two budgets
by 2.5 Billion dollars per year causing VA hospitals to be closed all over
the US. Guardsmen also aren't entitled to the same benefits that active
military are, thereby costing the government much less money to use them
than Active Duty personnel.

I'd suggest anyone interested in learning about how badly this
administration is actually treating our troops to check into Col. David
Hackworth's website www.sftt.org for further information.

--


Roger W. Norman
Past Eastern District Commander, State of VA, AMVets.

[hank alrich]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> humans.

Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
"campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
and why they're "camping".

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> humans.

Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
"campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
and why they're "camping".

--
ha

[Bob Cain]

hank alrich wrote:

> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
>
>>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
>>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
>>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
>>humans.
>
>
> Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> and why they're "camping".

I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
hell bent on bringing it.

That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
up again. Heavy sigh.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

hank alrich wrote:

> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
>
>>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
>>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
>>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
>>humans.
>
>
> Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> and why they're "camping".

I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
hell bent on bringing it.

That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
up again. Heavy sigh.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Roger W. Norman]

> I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
> country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
> hell bent on bringing it.
>
> That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
> in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
> up again. Heavy sigh.
>
>
> Bob

Indeed.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Bob Cain" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> hank alrich wrote:
>
> > Roger W. Norman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> >>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> >>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> >>humans.
> >
> >
> > Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> > go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> > "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> > and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> > and why they're "camping".
>
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein

[Roger W. Norman]

> I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
> country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
> hell bent on bringing it.
>
> That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
> in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
> up again. Heavy sigh.
>
>
> Bob

Indeed.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Bob Cain" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> hank alrich wrote:
>
> > Roger W. Norman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> >>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> >>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> >>humans.
> >
> >
> > Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> > go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> > "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> > and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> > and why they're "camping".
>
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
Bob Cain > wrote:

> hank alrich wrote:
>
> > Roger W. Norman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> >>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> >>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> >>humans.
> >
> >
> > Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> > go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> > "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> > and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> > and why they're "camping".
>
> I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
> country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
> hell bent on bringing it.
>
> That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
> in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
> up again. Heavy sigh.
>
>
> Bob


I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just too
much of this kind of crap going on.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
Bob Cain > wrote:

> hank alrich wrote:
>
> > Roger W. Norman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>there are tales of known veterans living the in the
> >>vast wilds of Oregon, Washington State and Alaska, just to prevent
> >>themselves from having to come into much if any contact with "normal"
> >>humans.
> >
> >
> > Got 'em hereabouts, in the canyons of the rivers. The ones who can deal
> > go to town every now and then to get supplies for the rest of the
> > "campers". Otherwise these guys stay invisible to the public at large,
> > and even the ones who hitchhike for supplies don't tell their ride where
> > and why they're "camping".
>
> I just hate it when I start to thinking that maybe this
> country deserves the destruction it's administration seems
> hell bent on bringing it.
>
> That kind of thinking got me in more than a bit of trouble
> in the '60s and it really annoys me when it starts kicking
> up again. Heavy sigh.
>
>
> Bob


I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just too
much of this kind of crap going on.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Blind Joni]

>I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
>
>budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
>too
>much of this kind of crap going on.

Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she is
instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but to
think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to be
done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that every
poiltician is dishonest at best.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
>
>budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
>too
>much of this kind of crap going on.

Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she is
instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but to
think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to be
done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that every
poiltician is dishonest at best.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
> >woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
> >recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due
> >to
> >
> >budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
> >too
> >much of this kind of crap going on.
>
> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she
> is
> instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but to
> think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to be
> done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that every
> poiltician is dishonest at best.
>

Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on the
street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills and
self-control. Before Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind
of thing was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided and
the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
> >woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
> >recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due
> >to
> >
> >budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
> >too
> >much of this kind of crap going on.
>
> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she
> is
> instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but to
> think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to be
> done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that every
> poiltician is dishonest at best.
>

Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on the
street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills and
self-control. Before Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind
of thing was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided and
the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Blind Joni]

>Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
>alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
>the
>street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
>and
>self-control.

OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
nonetheless.
If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
I wish her good fortune.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
>alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
>the
>street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
>and
>self-control.

OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
nonetheless.
If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
I wish her good fortune.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[S O'Neill]

Blind Joni wrote:


> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.


That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like me
things would be better. Many disagree.

[S O'Neill]

Blind Joni wrote:


> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.


That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like me
things would be better. Many disagree.

[Blind Joni]

>> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
>> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>
>
>That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
>me
>things would be better. Many disagree

I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.






John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
>> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>
>
>That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
>me
>things would be better. Many disagree

I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.






John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[George]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> >the
> >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> >and
> >self-control.
>
> OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> nonetheless.
> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
> I wish her good fortune.
>
>
Jihn you should wait till your sober before writing . this is utter and
complete crap

maybe if she was leper on some isolated island near hawaii a church
would step in(The nun I worked on this leper project with is up for
sainthood!!!) but not a neighboorhood church, ask my cousin what
happened when she went to the church when her husband beat her.
They sent her back to him to live as she had promised to God , till
death do you part

[George]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> >the
> >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> >and
> >self-control.
>
> OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> nonetheless.
> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
> I wish her good fortune.
>
>
Jihn you should wait till your sober before writing . this is utter and
complete crap

maybe if she was leper on some isolated island near hawaii a church
would step in(The nun I worked on this leper project with is up for
sainthood!!!) but not a neighboorhood church, ask my cousin what
happened when she went to the church when her husband beat her.
They sent her back to him to live as she had promised to God , till
death do you part

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> >the
> >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> >and
> >self-control.
>
> OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> nonetheless.
> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.

Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
answer to every problem.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> >the
> >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> >and
> >self-control.
>
> OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> nonetheless.
> If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.

Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
answer to every problem.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Bob Cain]

Blind Joni wrote:

>>I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>>woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>>recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
>>
>>budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
>>too
>>much of this kind of crap going on.
>
>
> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she is
> instantly homeless..then assaulted.

I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
and then on the street when a pretext was found for
divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
has happened.

What got me out of it was not bootstrapping. I simply could
find no way to make that happen from a filthy, hungry state
with no communications and no address. The accompanying
disorientation is disabling in and of itself. Had I not
suddenly inherited what it took, I honestly believe I would
have died there.

I thought, as do most, that I was stronger than what I
proved to be in the face of that kind of mind numbing
change. We all have our pink glasses until they are stepped
on. It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.

I really think more of us need that experience before things
will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

Blind Joni wrote:

>>I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>>woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>>recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due to
>>
>>budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's just
>>too
>>much of this kind of crap going on.
>
>
> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she is
> instantly homeless..then assaulted.

I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
and then on the street when a pretext was found for
divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
has happened.

What got me out of it was not bootstrapping. I simply could
find no way to make that happen from a filthy, hungry state
with no communications and no address. The accompanying
disorientation is disabling in and of itself. Had I not
suddenly inherited what it took, I honestly believe I would
have died there.

I thought, as do most, that I was stronger than what I
proved to be in the face of that kind of mind numbing
change. We all have our pink glasses until they are stepped
on. It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.

I really think more of us need that experience before things
will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Kadis wrote:
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
>
>>> I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>>> woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>>> recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due
>>> to budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's
>>> just too much of this kind of crap going on.
>>
>> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she
>> is instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but
>> to think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to
>> be done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that
>> every politician is dishonest at best.
>
>
> Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on the
> street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills and
> self-control. Before Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind
> of thing was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided and
> the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.

Which, according to some recent studies, is costing more than the institutions did.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Kadis wrote:
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
>
>>> I'm in the same boat. We played a little gig Sunday at which a now-homeless
>>> woman was assaulted somewhere in the vicinity and came in for help. She was
>>> recently laid off from the college where she worked as a groundskeeper due
>>> to budget cuts and now has nowhere to live and no support system. There's
>>> just too much of this kind of crap going on.
>>
>> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid off....she
>> is instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a tragedy but
>> to think this is commonplace is a little hysterical. And what exactly is to
>> be done? What was the rest of the story? For the record ..I believe that
>> every politician is dishonest at best.
>
>
> Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on the
> street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills and
> self-control. Before Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind
> of thing was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided and
> the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.

Which, according to some recent studies, is costing more than the institutions did.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:52:18 GMT, wrote:

>HEy it's the "kinder gentler America" folks. <Hrrumph>

Greg Brown has a song called "I Want My Country Back."

Chris Hornbeck

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:52:18 GMT, wrote:

>HEy it's the "kinder gentler America" folks. <Hrrumph>

Greg Brown has a song called "I Want My Country Back."

Chris Hornbeck

[steve]

Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
<insert your favorite deity> go I"

Bob Cain wrote:
>

> I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
> it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
> and then on the street when a pretext was found for
> divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
> quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
> like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
> that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
> has happened.
>
> What got me out of it was not bootstrapping. I simply could
> find no way to make that happen from a filthy, hungry state
> with no communications and no address. The accompanying
> disorientation is disabling in and of itself. Had I not
> suddenly inherited what it took, I honestly believe I would
> have died there.
>
> I thought, as do most, that I was stronger than what I
> proved to be in the face of that kind of mind numbing
> change. We all have our pink glasses until they are stepped
> on. It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
> the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
> wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
> time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.
>
> I really think more of us need that experience before things
> will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
> the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
> those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein

[steve]

Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
<insert your favorite deity> go I"

Bob Cain wrote:
>

> I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
> it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
> and then on the street when a pretext was found for
> divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
> quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
> like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
> that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
> has happened.
>
> What got me out of it was not bootstrapping. I simply could
> find no way to make that happen from a filthy, hungry state
> with no communications and no address. The accompanying
> disorientation is disabling in and of itself. Had I not
> suddenly inherited what it took, I honestly believe I would
> have died there.
>
> I thought, as do most, that I was stronger than what I
> proved to be in the face of that kind of mind numbing
> change. We all have our pink glasses until they are stepped
> on. It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
> the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
> wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
> time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.
>
> I really think more of us need that experience before things
> will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
> the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
> those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)
>
> Bob
> --
>
> "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
> simpler."
>
> A. Einstein

[Blind Joni]

>Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
><insert your favorite deity> go I"
>

If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
who believe this would be supportive when needed.
The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
to be.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
><insert your favorite deity> go I"
>

If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
who believe this would be supportive when needed.
The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
to be.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>>
>Jihn you should wait till your sober before writing . this is utter and
>complete crap
>
>maybe if she was leper on some isolated island near hawaii a church
>would step in(The nun I worked on this leper project with is up for
>sainthood!!!) but not a neighboorhood church, ask my cousin what
>happened when she went to the church when her husband beat her.
>They sent her back to him to live as she had promised to God , till
>death do you part

I knew I could dount on you to take a possible event and make a generalization
based on a personal sample of 1.
I know of churches who would step in so my possibility stands.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>>
>Jihn you should wait till your sober before writing . this is utter and
>complete crap
>
>maybe if she was leper on some isolated island near hawaii a church
>would step in(The nun I worked on this leper project with is up for
>sainthood!!!) but not a neighboorhood church, ask my cousin what
>happened when she went to the church when her husband beat her.
>They sent her back to him to live as she had promised to God , till
>death do you part

I knew I could dount on you to take a possible event and make a generalization
based on a personal sample of 1.
I know of churches who would step in so my possibility stands.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>
>Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them?
I know it runs an unwed mother center..and I'm sure there are religious based
concepts brought up. I don't see many Gov't programs without a catch for
someone either.

Does it
>provide
>job training and placement?

No

Does it find low-cost housing?
Yes.

Does it provide
>all
>the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

First we have to define "services"...I don't know exactly what that would be.
>
>We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
>
>not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
>
>answer to every problem.
>
Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it. I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed it
and noone else was stepping in.





John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>
>Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them?
I know it runs an unwed mother center..and I'm sure there are religious based
concepts brought up. I don't see many Gov't programs without a catch for
someone either.

Does it
>provide
>job training and placement?

No

Does it find low-cost housing?
Yes.

Does it provide
>all
>the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

First we have to define "services"...I don't know exactly what that would be.
>
>We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
>
>not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
>
>answer to every problem.
>
Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it. I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed it
and noone else was stepping in.





John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[John Fowler]

Jay Kadis > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
> > >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> > >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> > >the
> > >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> > >and
> > >self-control.
> >
> > OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> > another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> > nonetheless.
> > If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> > system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>
> Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
> job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
> the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?
>
> We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
> not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
> answer to every problem.
>
> -Jay


Well, no, church may not be the answer to every problem. On the other
hand, how well are corporations or the government doing on social
problems? Especcially considering the fact that corporations, and
their government enablers, are far more the cause of problems than
churches are. Various charity organizations and 'crisis centers',
etc., of whatever stripe, are merely dealing with the fallout arising
from the actions of governments and corporations.

Yes, it is true that *some* church assistance programs involve
proselytizing, but many do not even mention 'the lord' at all to the
recipients. Some folk's interperetation of whatever chosen gospel
tells them to 'save' people, but a good many read where you just have
to help folks, no evangelism needed. If you *really* want to help
folks, you can't worry about if they're willing to be 'saved' or not.
Many church based organizations understand and work under this
principle.

Some of the church based, and other non-governmental agencies do, in
fact, provide assistance for obtaining housing, loans, jobs, etc. ,
expecting far less "in return" than a corporate or government entity
would, in terms of intrusion upon your life, or surrender of dignity.

I agree that it should not be such a "catch as catch can" situation,
but that is more a matter of the policies that create the situation in
the first place. To somewhat oversimplify my position on it, we
wouldn't have to worry and argue so much about how best to deal with,
or how much to spend on these problems, if we were to figure out how
to quit spending so much money to cause these problems to begin with.
Events being as they are now, we seem to have a ways to go yet on that
score.

The new poor and veterans that we are creating in ever greater numbers
will be needing any and every source of relief and help that they can
get in getting themselves back to a state of dignity.

Let's keep them in our hearts.


JF

[John Fowler]

Jay Kadis > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
> > >Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
> > >alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
> > >the
> > >street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
> > >and
> > >self-control.
> >
> > OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
> > another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
> > nonetheless.
> > If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
> > system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>
> Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
> job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
> the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?
>
> We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
> not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
> answer to every problem.
>
> -Jay


Well, no, church may not be the answer to every problem. On the other
hand, how well are corporations or the government doing on social
problems? Especcially considering the fact that corporations, and
their government enablers, are far more the cause of problems than
churches are. Various charity organizations and 'crisis centers',
etc., of whatever stripe, are merely dealing with the fallout arising
from the actions of governments and corporations.

Yes, it is true that *some* church assistance programs involve
proselytizing, but many do not even mention 'the lord' at all to the
recipients. Some folk's interperetation of whatever chosen gospel
tells them to 'save' people, but a good many read where you just have
to help folks, no evangelism needed. If you *really* want to help
folks, you can't worry about if they're willing to be 'saved' or not.
Many church based organizations understand and work under this
principle.

Some of the church based, and other non-governmental agencies do, in
fact, provide assistance for obtaining housing, loans, jobs, etc. ,
expecting far less "in return" than a corporate or government entity
would, in terms of intrusion upon your life, or surrender of dignity.

I agree that it should not be such a "catch as catch can" situation,
but that is more a matter of the policies that create the situation in
the first place. To somewhat oversimplify my position on it, we
wouldn't have to worry and argue so much about how best to deal with,
or how much to spend on these problems, if we were to figure out how
to quit spending so much money to cause these problems to begin with.
Events being as they are now, we seem to have a ways to go yet on that
score.

The new poor and veterans that we are creating in ever greater numbers
will be needing any and every source of relief and help that they can
get in getting themselves back to a state of dignity.

Let's keep them in our hearts.


JF

[Bob Cain]

wrote:


> Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
> me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
> dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
> trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
> rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
> place.

Where you are treated as any other pest. That's probably
the most traumatic part, the descent from human to pest so
quickly. The knowledge of where you really stand and what a
thin veil separates you from it never goes away.

>
> My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
> know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
> still catalogues these items for future reference.

Who knows, Richard, maybe we'll be the survivors when the
crunch comes. I've come to see that my most damaging
experiences usually have a side that's pure gift.
Hyper-vigilence has other interesting aspects.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

wrote:


> Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
> me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
> dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
> trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
> rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
> place.

Where you are treated as any other pest. That's probably
the most traumatic part, the descent from human to pest so
quickly. The knowledge of where you really stand and what a
thin veil separates you from it never goes away.

>
> My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
> know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
> still catalogues these items for future reference.

Who knows, Richard, maybe we'll be the survivors when the
crunch comes. I've come to see that my most damaging
experiences usually have a side that's pure gift.
Hyper-vigilence has other interesting aspects.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Roger W. Norman]

"Blind Joni" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
> understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in
need.
> Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one
part
> of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.

I'd somewhat disagree that it's not really the local church that does the
work, it's the people that make up the church. The church just facilitates
the functions by having people of like minds meet and have the use of the
building and such. Now I admit that, in my case, most of the effort evolved
from the hard work of Reverend Balcomb (who performed the marriages of all
the local Normans, except my parents - and let me play the church organ
almost whenever I wanted to). But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things. In fact, it mostly looked down on unwed mothers, etc. It took a
new leader of the church to actually change things around from being a hell
and damnation type of church with virtually no love for anyone, to one of a
high degree of civic minded duty. And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

[Roger W. Norman]

"Blind Joni" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
> understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in
need.
> Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one
part
> of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.

I'd somewhat disagree that it's not really the local church that does the
work, it's the people that make up the church. The church just facilitates
the functions by having people of like minds meet and have the use of the
building and such. Now I admit that, in my case, most of the effort evolved
from the hard work of Reverend Balcomb (who performed the marriages of all
the local Normans, except my parents - and let me play the church organ
almost whenever I wanted to). But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things. In fact, it mostly looked down on unwed mothers, etc. It took a
new leader of the church to actually change things around from being a hell
and damnation type of church with virtually no love for anyone, to one of a
high degree of civic minded duty. And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

[S O'Neill]

Blind Joni wrote:

>>>If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
>>>system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>>
>>
>>That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
>>me
>>things would be better. Many disagree
>
>
> I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
> understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
> Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
> of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.
>

Including state, perhaps, if that keeps her off your lawn.

[S O'Neill]

Blind Joni wrote:

>>>If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
>>>system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.
>>
>>
>>That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
>>me
>>things would be better. Many disagree
>
>
> I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
> understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
> Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
> of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.
>

Including state, perhaps, if that keeps her off your lawn.

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]

> >
> Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
> hand.the
> same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it.
> I
> personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed
> it
> and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]

> >
> Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
> hand.the
> same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it.
> I
> personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed
> it
> and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Blind Joni]

>I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
>resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
>and
>it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
>instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
>
>likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.
>
>-Jay

I knew that's what you meant. I too get frustrated by gov'ts seemingly out of
focus focus most of the time. This is sadly true of any gov't setup..local or
national. The problem is getting most to agree on what should be done. It's not
like we're..as a nation.. spending nothing on human services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
>resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
>and
>it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
>instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
>
>likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.
>
>-Jay

I knew that's what you meant. I too get frustrated by gov'ts seemingly out of
focus focus most of the time. This is sadly true of any gov't setup..local or
national. The problem is getting most to agree on what should be done. It's not
like we're..as a nation.. spending nothing on human services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

> But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
>church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
>things.

Not so here.

> And in a small community, it took about
>10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
>good for the community in the first place.
>
This is probably the case in many communities. My church is growing at about
20%/year.



John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

> But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
>church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
>things.

Not so here.

> And in a small community, it took about
>10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
>good for the community in the first place.
>
This is probably the case in many communities. My church is growing at about
20%/year.



John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[George]

In article >,
Jay Kadis > wrote:

> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > >
> > Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
> > hand.the
> > same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take
> > it.
> > I
> > personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they
> > needed
> > it
> > and noone else was stepping in.
>
> I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
> resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
> and
> it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
> instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
> likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.
>
> -Jay


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

[George]

In article >,
Jay Kadis > wrote:

> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > >
> > Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
> > hand.the
> > same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take
> > it.
> > I
> > personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they
> > needed
> > it
> > and noone else was stepping in.
>
> I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
> resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
> and
> it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
> instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
> likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.
>
> -Jay


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

[Blind Joni]

>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
>George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things? At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
>George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things? At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[George]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> >George
>
> Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
> At
> least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> voluntarily..of
> course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> damnation..I'm sure.
>
except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

[George]

In article >,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

> >and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> >George
>
> Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
> At
> least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> voluntarily..of
> course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> damnation..I'm sure.
>
except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

[S O'Neill]

George wrote:
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
>
>>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
>>>George
>>
>>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
>>At
>>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
>>voluntarily..of
>>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
>>damnation..I'm sure.
>>
>
> except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
> churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
> marriage and other"worthy" causes
> and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
> addressed
> George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us taxpayers.

[S O'Neill]

George wrote:
> In article >,
> (Blind Joni) wrote:
>
>
>>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
>>>George
>>
>>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
>>At
>>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
>>voluntarily..of
>>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
>>damnation..I'm sure.
>>
>
> except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
> churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
> marriage and other"worthy" causes
> and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
> addressed
> George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us taxpayers.

[Jay Kadis]

In article >, S O'Neill >
wrote:

> George wrote:
> > In article >,
> > (Blind Joni) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> >>>George
> >>
> >>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
> >>things?
> >>At
> >>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> >>voluntarily..of
> >>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> >>damnation..I'm sure.
> >>
> >
> > except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
> > churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
> > marriage and other"worthy" causes
> > and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
> > addressed
> > George
>
> Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us
> taxpayers.
>

And as they get further into politics, this has to change.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[Jay Kadis]

In article >, S O'Neill >
wrote:

> George wrote:
> > In article >,
> > (Blind Joni) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> >>>George
> >>
> >>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
> >>things?
> >>At
> >>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> >>voluntarily..of
> >>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> >>damnation..I'm sure.
> >>
> >
> > except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
> > churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
> > marriage and other"worthy" causes
> > and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
> > addressed
> > George
>
> Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us
> taxpayers.
>

And as they get further into politics, this has to change.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

[George Gleason]

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, S O'Neill
>
> wrote:
>
> > George wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > (Blind Joni) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> > >>>George
> > >>
> > >>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
> > >>things?
> > >>At
> > >>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> > >>voluntarily..of
> > >>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> > >>damnation..I'm sure.
> > >>
> > >
except when voluntairly you mean
holding out eternal salvation that is subtly tied to what you put in the
collection plate
or the rolex wearing mercedes driving preacher prying food money from
wheelchair bound and crippled destitue people
people (mistakenly) feel they can buy forgivness(except from the catholic
church that makes that a policy)
there will always be a lineof "faithful" ready to give money they can't
afford to a church that is doing "god's work", as if God couldn't do what
ever , anyway
BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

[George Gleason]

"Jay Kadis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, S O'Neill
>
> wrote:
>
> > George wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > (Blind Joni) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>>and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
> > >>>George
> > >>
> > >>Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
> > >>things?
> > >>At
> > >>least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
> > >>voluntarily..of
> > >>course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
> > >>damnation..I'm sure.
> > >>
> > >
except when voluntairly you mean
holding out eternal salvation that is subtly tied to what you put in the
collection plate
or the rolex wearing mercedes driving preacher prying food money from
wheelchair bound and crippled destitue people
people (mistakenly) feel they can buy forgivness(except from the catholic
church that makes that a policy)
there will always be a lineof "faithful" ready to give money they can't
afford to a church that is doing "god's work", as if God couldn't do what
ever , anyway
BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Kadis wrote:

> In article >, S O'Neill >
> wrote:
>
>> George wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
>>>> things? At least the church help is paid for by people who give the
>>>> money voluntarily...of course you will think that they are being
>>>> threatened with eternal damnation..I'm sure.
>>>
>>>
>>> except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
>>> churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
>>> marriage and other"worthy" causes
>>> and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that
>>> I have addressed
>>
>>
>> Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from
>> all us taxpayers.
>
>
> And as they get further into politics, this has to change.


Good luck.

(Very) roughly quoting Susan Jacoby: "Religion is (and has for a long time) been quite well protected from government in this country. The increasing problem we face is protecting government from religion."

[Kurt Albershardt]

Jay Kadis wrote:

> In article >, S O'Neill >
> wrote:
>
>> George wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
>>>> things? At least the church help is paid for by people who give the
>>>> money voluntarily...of course you will think that they are being
>>>> threatened with eternal damnation..I'm sure.
>>>
>>>
>>> except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
>>> churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
>>> marriage and other"worthy" causes
>>> and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that
>>> I have addressed
>>
>>
>> Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from
>> all us taxpayers.
>
>
> And as they get further into politics, this has to change.


Good luck.

(Very) roughly quoting Susan Jacoby: "Religion is (and has for a long time) been quite well protected from government in this country. The increasing problem we face is protecting government from religion."

[John Fowler]

OK, a correction and clarification to my earlier post .

I had mentioned "corporations and the government". In reviewing the
roster of the current administration, from the VP, to the national
security advisor, to the secretary of defense, ad infinitum, along
with those informing them regarding policy, I realize now that I had
inadvertently ventured into a "distinction without a difference" zone.
The tail most certainly excercises firm control over the dog now, far
beyond mere wagging.

As to my last point in the post, i would assure you that in no way am
I advocationg the cutting of funds to various releif and recovery
programs, libertarian inclined as i am. It was meant to experess the
"ounce of prevention" sentiment.


Looking at it from an actuarial standpoint, it would be quite
difficult to calculate the total actual costs that result from a
single individual that is lost to society. Let's do our best to
account for their loss of contribution, before we even get to what
they 'cost' for upkeep or long rehabilitation.

First of all, is the loss of productivity, which results in higher
prices. Loss of purchasing power, due to lack of funds, which results
in lower revenue for companies, which further contributes to higher
prices. The loss of income which would otherwise provide them with the
means to help out a family member, or another in their communty who,
now, has to turn towards some government agency, which results in
higher taxes. I could write for 5 pages on this. For those familiar
with fractal geometry, that visualization would be in order here.

Then, to the social costs, again, in terms of lost contribution. Some
of the many good mayors, teachers, coaches, counselors,
referees,judges, etc., that we _might_ have had, are either lying in a
grave , or taking our tax or contribution dollars for purpose of mere
upkeep. Quite a contribution to society, eh?

Now then, take the various costs that this *one* person might incur
upon society, as for "lost contribution" considerations alone.
Consider next that the greater number of these casualties survive, and
require lifelong care in some cases, which will require resources from
every corner whichfrom they might be obtained. This is only a partial
enumeration of all the actuarial considerations involving ONE person!

Multiply all that by many tens of thousands, and you will see that we
are to be reaping the "dividends" of our $87 billion "investment", for
many years to come.


JF

[John Fowler]

OK, a correction and clarification to my earlier post .

I had mentioned "corporations and the government". In reviewing the
roster of the current administration, from the VP, to the national
security advisor, to the secretary of defense, ad infinitum, along
with those informing them regarding policy, I realize now that I had
inadvertently ventured into a "distinction without a difference" zone.
The tail most certainly excercises firm control over the dog now, far
beyond mere wagging.

As to my last point in the post, i would assure you that in no way am
I advocationg the cutting of funds to various releif and recovery
programs, libertarian inclined as i am. It was meant to experess the
"ounce of prevention" sentiment.


Looking at it from an actuarial standpoint, it would be quite
difficult to calculate the total actual costs that result from a
single individual that is lost to society. Let's do our best to
account for their loss of contribution, before we even get to what
they 'cost' for upkeep or long rehabilitation.

First of all, is the loss of productivity, which results in higher
prices. Loss of purchasing power, due to lack of funds, which results
in lower revenue for companies, which further contributes to higher
prices. The loss of income which would otherwise provide them with the
means to help out a family member, or another in their communty who,
now, has to turn towards some government agency, which results in
higher taxes. I could write for 5 pages on this. For those familiar
with fractal geometry, that visualization would be in order here.

Then, to the social costs, again, in terms of lost contribution. Some
of the many good mayors, teachers, coaches, counselors,
referees,judges, etc., that we _might_ have had, are either lying in a
grave , or taking our tax or contribution dollars for purpose of mere
upkeep. Quite a contribution to society, eh?

Now then, take the various costs that this *one* person might incur
upon society, as for "lost contribution" considerations alone.
Consider next that the greater number of these casualties survive, and
require lifelong care in some cases, which will require resources from
every corner whichfrom they might be obtained. This is only a partial
enumeration of all the actuarial considerations involving ONE person!

Multiply all that by many tens of thousands, and you will see that we
are to be reaping the "dividends" of our $87 billion "investment", for
many years to come.


JF

[steve]

Blind Joni wrote:
>
> >Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
> ><insert your favorite deity> go I"
> >
>
> If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
> who believe this would be supportive when needed.
> The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
> to be.
>

It's not about grace, its about recognizing one's arrogance toward
another human being, practicing humility and developing empathy. Many in
America view homeless as being somehow their own fault, as if they would
only <blank>, they could be more like themselves.

Many of the homeless are too far gone to ever be integrated into
mainstream society, so there's little to be done except address basic
needs and attempt to stem their substance abuse.

[steve]

Blind Joni wrote:
>
> >Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
> ><insert your favorite deity> go I"
> >
>
> If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
> who believe this would be supportive when needed.
> The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
> to be.
>

It's not about grace, its about recognizing one's arrogance toward
another human being, practicing humility and developing empathy. Many in
America view homeless as being somehow their own fault, as if they would
only <blank>, they could be more like themselves.

Many of the homeless are too far gone to ever be integrated into
mainstream society, so there's little to be done except address basic
needs and attempt to stem their substance abuse.

[Blind Joni]

>you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
>addressed

I agree..I was speaking of my own church in particular.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
>addressed

I agree..I was speaking of my own church in particular.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
>could stop injecting them into every conversation.
>george

We were talking about organizations that help people in need..sound in context
to me.
I wasn't bashing any alternative..just offering another. And if we didn't
discuss things someone didn't like.................

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Blind Joni]

>BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
>could stop injecting them into every conversation.
>george

We were talking about organizations that help people in need..sound in context
to me.
I wasn't bashing any alternative..just offering another. And if we didn't
discuss things someone didn't like.................

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"David Morgan (MAMS)" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
> BUSH LEAGUES
> .

What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"David Morgan (MAMS)" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
> BUSH LEAGUES
> .

What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?

[Roger W. Norman]

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/


--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ricky W. Hunt" > wrote in message
news:2Ltwc.49131$3x.12321@attbi_s54...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
> > BUSH LEAGUES
> > .
>
> What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/


--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ricky W. Hunt" > wrote in message
news:2Ltwc.49131$3x.12321@attbi_s54...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
> > BUSH LEAGUES
> > .
>
> What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?
>
>

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.capitolhillblue.com/

I know that but what is it? Is it a site "of record"? It's seem all that's
required to "validate" anything today is to point to a URL where a person
read something. There's thousands of these listen places but dubious (if
any) real journalism. Even the big hard papers we used to could trust are
becoming suspect. It's just that I'd never heard of capitolhillblue and
couldn't find any references to them other than other sites just like it
quoting it. Do they have any street creed or cache that we should believe
what they say?

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.capitolhillblue.com/

I know that but what is it? Is it a site "of record"? It's seem all that's
required to "validate" anything today is to point to a URL where a person
read something. There's thousands of these listen places but dubious (if
any) real journalism. Even the big hard papers we used to could trust are
becoming suspect. It's just that I'd never heard of capitolhillblue and
couldn't find any references to them other than other sites just like it
quoting it. Do they have any street creed or cache that we should believe
what they say?

[Roger W. Norman]

Capitol Hill Blue is best described by their own FAQ, which has the
following paragraph as part.

"Musings, brain drain and rantings started by a grouchy old ex-newspaperman
named Doug Thompson in October 1994. That makes us the oldest surviving news
site on the Internet. But dont' take our word for it. Go to Google and see
if you can find anything older. Bet ya can't.
Sometimes he is joined, more or less, by a ragtag cast of current and
ex-newspaper men and women who wander in and out of here like homeless
children. Some still work for news organizations and use Capitol Hill Blue
as an outlet for the stories their outfits don't have the guts to publish.
Others are retired, but can't give up the Muse.

Nobody here draws a salary. We couldn't afford to pay salaries anyway. All
money, if we ever get around to making any, will go back into the product.
Or maybe we'll send out for pizza. But it couldn't be any bigger than a
medium."

What it makes is a credentialled reporter that's taken it upon himself to do
what he sees as right, not just report the news in the real world of a
journalist. That's fine because that's basically all we have anymore. We
don't have "reporting", we have pontification as the norm. Doug has
history, contacts and the agenda to present the news he can garner. He's
neither more right nor more wrong than others, but he is less likely to
present inaccurate information one might find on The Drudge Report. He
truthfully deals in news, not innuendo and misinformation.
--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ricky W. Hunt" > wrote in message
news:LXHwc.9892$HG.7998@attbi_s53...
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://www.capitolhillblue.com/
>
> I know that but what is it? Is it a site "of record"? It's seem all that's
> required to "validate" anything today is to point to a URL where a person
> read something. There's thousands of these listen places but dubious (if
> any) real journalism. Even the big hard papers we used to could trust are
> becoming suspect. It's just that I'd never heard of capitolhillblue and
> couldn't find any references to them other than other sites just like it
> quoting it. Do they have any street creed or cache that we should believe
> what they say?
>
>

[Roger W. Norman]

Capitol Hill Blue is best described by their own FAQ, which has the
following paragraph as part.

"Musings, brain drain and rantings started by a grouchy old ex-newspaperman
named Doug Thompson in October 1994. That makes us the oldest surviving news
site on the Internet. But dont' take our word for it. Go to Google and see
if you can find anything older. Bet ya can't.
Sometimes he is joined, more or less, by a ragtag cast of current and
ex-newspaper men and women who wander in and out of here like homeless
children. Some still work for news organizations and use Capitol Hill Blue
as an outlet for the stories their outfits don't have the guts to publish.
Others are retired, but can't give up the Muse.

Nobody here draws a salary. We couldn't afford to pay salaries anyway. All
money, if we ever get around to making any, will go back into the product.
Or maybe we'll send out for pizza. But it couldn't be any bigger than a
medium."

What it makes is a credentialled reporter that's taken it upon himself to do
what he sees as right, not just report the news in the real world of a
journalist. That's fine because that's basically all we have anymore. We
don't have "reporting", we have pontification as the norm. Doug has
history, contacts and the agenda to present the news he can garner. He's
neither more right nor more wrong than others, but he is less likely to
present inaccurate information one might find on The Drudge Report. He
truthfully deals in news, not innuendo and misinformation.
--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ricky W. Hunt" > wrote in message
news:LXHwc.9892$HG.7998@attbi_s53...
> "Roger W. Norman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://www.capitolhillblue.com/
>
> I know that but what is it? Is it a site "of record"? It's seem all that's
> required to "validate" anything today is to point to a URL where a person
> read something. There's thousands of these listen places but dubious (if
> any) real journalism. Even the big hard papers we used to could trust are
> becoming suspect. It's just that I'd never heard of capitolhillblue and
> couldn't find any references to them other than other sites just like it
> quoting it. Do they have any street creed or cache that we should believe
> what they say?
>
>

[[email protected]]

Lines: 85
Message-ID: >
X-Complaints-To:
X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling
X-Trace: ogjnolidcdijhjikdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboga ddncgljbmaaljpecjobkgamippnjnhelldiojhjbjnjiagppne obeolemhmahimacbnelcjgmpnhgcgjfnocicmlpfallpmliile nkkflkggbe
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:52:18 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:52:18 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1076280


On 2004-06-02 said:
>> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid
>>off....she is
>> instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a
>>tragedy but to think this is commonplace is a little hysterical.
>>And what exactly is to be done? What was the rest of the story?
>>For the record ..I believe that every poiltician is dishonest at
>best. >
>Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's
>probably an alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that
>entitle her to a life on the street? Life can be very hard for
>those people with marginal social skills and self-control. Before
>Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind of thing
>was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided
>and the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.
ACcording to the right wingers that's what they're entitled to. Screw
'em they aren't anybody!!!

I worked for awhile at a mission for homeless men in ORegon. IT was
in Salem ORegon to be exact. Amazingly enough we were a dumping
ground for the state mental hospital. THey'd kick 'em out still
needing somebody to look after 'em and dump them on us where we
couldn't make sure they got their meds or were closely enough watched
somebody wouldn't take advantage of them or they do harm to others.
THe reason was simple. THe mission offered homeless men 7 free nights
a month and a bed and shower for $2 a night. Warehouse 'em and ignore
'em. Btw this was a union mission operated by a majority of the
churches in the area.

HEy folks this is the America you voted for since 1980. sHrink the
middle class and once they're poor and economically disenfranchised
kick 'em out on the street to be victimized, especially if they're not
equipped to deal for themselves.

I'd rather see the private sector dealing, but there are just too many
needing some kind of help if not looked after so they don't come to
harm or harm others. The private sector organizations such as
churches etc. who try to help are just overloaded. wHat does a
shelter for the homeless do when half its beds are filled with folks
who should be under the care of professionals? YOu can bet this lady
groundskeeper wasn't making much over minimum wage. FIgure she's
living from paycheck to paycheck anywayand without those paychecks
unemployment's a little less than the paycheck and comes with no
benefits if she had any at all for working. Once it runs out ... you
can guess the rest.

WE need to find a way of dealing with these folks with compassion
which also gets them at least a roof over their heads and can start
them back on the road to being productive contributing members of the
community. I'm quite familiar with the problems you refer to here and
don't see the religious organizations and others able to even stem the
flow. We're trying to catch gallons in a thimble.

TO my mind it starts with the whole structure to educate young people
which hasn't been doing the job for decades. OUtsourcing of
manufacturing jobs hasn't helped either. tHis lady can't do word
processing I'm sure, or man the counter at a convenience store; etc.
etc. etc. Even if she could if she's got medical problems she's not
going to hold one of those jobs for very long. THese jobs do not come
with a living wage and such things as medical benefits. sInce most of
these folks are "medically indigent" the medical care they get is only
that which is necessary as an emergency usually. By then a problem
that might have been corrected and allow one to remain productive keeps
one off work, and bye bye flunky level job.

Lots of these folks aren't part of a church community for the same
reason they don't have economic security. NO social skills and no or
few marketable skills. i know some mission programs operated by the
chuches that try to do some job training and similar but it's bigger
than they can handle often.

HEy it's the "kinder gentler America" folks. <Hrrumph>




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

Lines: 85
Message-ID: >
X-Complaints-To:
X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling
X-Trace: ogjnolidcdijhjikdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboga ddncgljbmaaljpecjobkgamippnjnhelldiojhjbjnjiagppne obeolemhmahimacbnelcjgmpnhgcgjfnocicmlpfallpmliile nkkflkggbe
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:52:18 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:52:18 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1076280


On 2004-06-02 said:
>> Hold on a minute....can you elaborate a little. A women gets laid
>>off....she is
>> instantly homeless..then assaulted. I agree this sounds like a
>>tragedy but to think this is commonplace is a little hysterical.
>>And what exactly is to be done? What was the rest of the story?
>>For the record ..I believe that every poiltician is dishonest at
>best. >
>Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's
>probably an alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that
>entitle her to a life on the street? Life can be very hard for
>those people with marginal social skills and self-control. Before
>Reagan emptied the institutions in California, this kind of thing
>was much less common. There are inadequate safety nets provided
>and the rest of us just have to deal with the fallout.
ACcording to the right wingers that's what they're entitled to. Screw
'em they aren't anybody!!!

I worked for awhile at a mission for homeless men in ORegon. IT was
in Salem ORegon to be exact. Amazingly enough we were a dumping
ground for the state mental hospital. THey'd kick 'em out still
needing somebody to look after 'em and dump them on us where we
couldn't make sure they got their meds or were closely enough watched
somebody wouldn't take advantage of them or they do harm to others.
THe reason was simple. THe mission offered homeless men 7 free nights
a month and a bed and shower for $2 a night. Warehouse 'em and ignore
'em. Btw this was a union mission operated by a majority of the
churches in the area.

HEy folks this is the America you voted for since 1980. sHrink the
middle class and once they're poor and economically disenfranchised
kick 'em out on the street to be victimized, especially if they're not
equipped to deal for themselves.

I'd rather see the private sector dealing, but there are just too many
needing some kind of help if not looked after so they don't come to
harm or harm others. The private sector organizations such as
churches etc. who try to help are just overloaded. wHat does a
shelter for the homeless do when half its beds are filled with folks
who should be under the care of professionals? YOu can bet this lady
groundskeeper wasn't making much over minimum wage. FIgure she's
living from paycheck to paycheck anywayand without those paychecks
unemployment's a little less than the paycheck and comes with no
benefits if she had any at all for working. Once it runs out ... you
can guess the rest.

WE need to find a way of dealing with these folks with compassion
which also gets them at least a roof over their heads and can start
them back on the road to being productive contributing members of the
community. I'm quite familiar with the problems you refer to here and
don't see the religious organizations and others able to even stem the
flow. We're trying to catch gallons in a thimble.

TO my mind it starts with the whole structure to educate young people
which hasn't been doing the job for decades. OUtsourcing of
manufacturing jobs hasn't helped either. tHis lady can't do word
processing I'm sure, or man the counter at a convenience store; etc.
etc. etc. Even if she could if she's got medical problems she's not
going to hold one of those jobs for very long. THese jobs do not come
with a living wage and such things as medical benefits. sInce most of
these folks are "medically indigent" the medical care they get is only
that which is necessary as an emergency usually. By then a problem
that might have been corrected and allow one to remain productive keeps
one off work, and bye bye flunky level job.

Lots of these folks aren't part of a church community for the same
reason they don't have economic security. NO social skills and no or
few marketable skills. i know some mission programs operated by the
chuches that try to do some job training and similar but it's bigger
than they can handle often.

HEy it's the "kinder gentler America" folks. <Hrrumph>




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

Lines: 40
Message-ID: >
X-Complaints-To:
X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling
X-Trace: ofjmidbaofeaohdodbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbohl anjcmkibnnlfekmodoldmkocifcjbkjgjnacipckohdppnppne obeolemhmahimacbnelcjgmpnhgcbhflohmgcjkcejjdgckegi phahdbffed
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:52:26 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:52:26 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1076294


Bob wrote:
>I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
>it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
>and then on the street when a pretext was found for
>divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
>quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
>like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
>that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
>has happened.
<snip>
>It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
>the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
>wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
>time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.
>I really think more of us need that experience before things
>will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
>the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
>those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)
Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
place.

My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
still catalogues these items for future reference.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

[[email protected]]

Lines: 40
Message-ID: >
X-Complaints-To:
X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling
X-Trace: ofjmidbaofeaohdodbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbohl anjcmkibnnlfekmodoldmkocifcjbkjgjnacipckohdppnppne obeolemhmahimacbnelcjgmpnhgcbhflohmgcjkcejjdgckegi phahdbffed
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:52:26 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:52:26 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1076294


Bob wrote:
>I was layed off from a research position in 1994 and while
>it wasn't instant, within four months I was living in my car
>and then on the street when a pretext was found for
>divesting me of the car. The assults followed rather
>quickly. Until it happens you have no idea what it feels
>like to have no power *at all* and be looking at a state
>that seems designed to make that situation permenant once it
>has happened.
<snip>
>It's been a fairly long time since that dark night of
>the soul but I still find myself scanning my environment
>wherever I go for safe and dry places to sleep should the
>time come again, and that recurs in my dreams regularly.
>I really think more of us need that experience before things
>will change. It is just not comprehensible otherwise and
>the people that are suffering it remain largely invisible to
>those to whom it hasn't (as they had been to me.)
Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
place.

My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
still catalogues these items for future reference.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--