Multiple Headphones or a speaker for Choir Recording

[Martin Quinn]

I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
(30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.

All suggestions welcome,

Martin

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message ...
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,
>
> Martin


So the choir is performing to pre-recorded music?

If with a piano or small ensemble, I would just let them listen to the instruments
and record them all simultaneously.

There is the old trick of using speakers placed out of phase in the same room
with the singers, but this may not work well depending on the design and acoustics
of the room, coupled with your potential choice of mics and placement method,
and the singer's abilities. Also, if the monitors are turned down low, the singers
may well drawf out their reference material.

A lot of the ability for the choir to 'gel' under abnormal circumstances, will rest in
how they are arranged... by sections, ATSB, etc., or if they are spread out among
each other. (I find that a spread of parts intermingled with each other can sound
less clinical and more cohesive).

If I had the a large number of headphones at my disposal, I'd try that first - although
a number of the singers will be likely forced to use only one side of the phones in
order to blend confidently and comfortably with their counterparts. I also find that
a spaced pair or jecklin disc works better on a mixed section choir, while the MS
works best with the choir arranged by sections together.

Often, the take is double tracked, with adjustments made to enhance the parts
that may have been deficient in the first pass.

Dont forget to have them remove squeaky shoes, pocket change, jingly earrings, etc.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message ...
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,
>
> Martin


So the choir is performing to pre-recorded music?

If with a piano or small ensemble, I would just let them listen to the instruments
and record them all simultaneously.

There is the old trick of using speakers placed out of phase in the same room
with the singers, but this may not work well depending on the design and acoustics
of the room, coupled with your potential choice of mics and placement method,
and the singer's abilities. Also, if the monitors are turned down low, the singers
may well drawf out their reference material.

A lot of the ability for the choir to 'gel' under abnormal circumstances, will rest in
how they are arranged... by sections, ATSB, etc., or if they are spread out among
each other. (I find that a spread of parts intermingled with each other can sound
less clinical and more cohesive).

If I had the a large number of headphones at my disposal, I'd try that first - although
a number of the singers will be likely forced to use only one side of the phones in
order to blend confidently and comfortably with their counterparts. I also find that
a spaced pair or jecklin disc works better on a mixed section choir, while the MS
works best with the choir arranged by sections together.

Often, the take is double tracked, with adjustments made to enhance the parts
that may have been deficient in the first pass.

Dont forget to have them remove squeaky shoes, pocket change, jingly earrings, etc.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message ...
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,
>
> Martin


So the choir is performing to pre-recorded music?

If with a piano or small ensemble, I would just let them listen to the instruments
and record them all simultaneously.

There is the old trick of using speakers placed out of phase in the same room
with the singers, but this may not work well depending on the design and acoustics
of the room, coupled with your potential choice of mics and placement method,
and the singer's abilities. Also, if the monitors are turned down low, the singers
may well drawf out their reference material.

A lot of the ability for the choir to 'gel' under abnormal circumstances, will rest in
how they are arranged... by sections, ATSB, etc., or if they are spread out among
each other. (I find that a spread of parts intermingled with each other can sound
less clinical and more cohesive).

If I had the a large number of headphones at my disposal, I'd try that first - although
a number of the singers will be likely forced to use only one side of the phones in
order to blend confidently and comfortably with their counterparts. I also find that
a spaced pair or jecklin disc works better on a mixed section choir, while the MS
works best with the choir arranged by sections together.

Often, the take is double tracked, with adjustments made to enhance the parts
that may have been deficient in the first pass.

Dont forget to have them remove squeaky shoes, pocket change, jingly earrings, etc.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.

In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both the
M and the S.

In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
the microphones.

Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
levels. All room bounce will still appear.

Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.

In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both the
M and the S.

In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
the microphones.

Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
levels. All room bounce will still appear.

Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.

In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both the
M and the S.

In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
the microphones.

Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
levels. All room bounce will still appear.

Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.

[**bg**]

--

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message
. 203...
> "Martin Quinn" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
pre-recorded
> > tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> > orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> > (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
> >
> > I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
few
> > groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.
>
> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.
>
> Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
> levels. All room bounce will still appear.
>
> Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
> little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
> ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.
_______________________________

Agreed.

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[**bg**]

--

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message
. 203...
> "Martin Quinn" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
pre-recorded
> > tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> > orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> > (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
> >
> > I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
few
> > groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.
>
> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.
>
> Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
> levels. All room bounce will still appear.
>
> Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
> little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
> ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.
_______________________________

Agreed.

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[**bg**]

--

"Carey Carlan" > wrote in message
. 203...
> "Martin Quinn" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
pre-recorded
> > tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> > orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> > (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
> >
> > I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
few
> > groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.
>
> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.
>
> Neither of the above will "silence" the monitors, but will just reduce the
> levels. All room bounce will still appear.
>
> Lastly, if you have a good room, good speakers, and a good soundtrack, a
> little bleed will add some ambience to the tracks exactly matching the
> ambience in the vocal tracks. May not be a bad thing.
_______________________________

Agreed.

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[Peter Larsen]

**bg** wrote:

> --

> "Carey Carlan" > wrote in message

You need OE Quotefix.

> -bg-


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Peter Larsen]

**bg** wrote:

> --

> "Carey Carlan" > wrote in message

You need OE Quotefix.

> -bg-


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Peter Larsen]

**bg** wrote:

> --

> "Carey Carlan" > wrote in message

You need OE Quotefix.

> -bg-


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Martin Quinn]

This is all good stuff,

> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.

How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.

Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each side of
each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then turning one out
of phase.

[Martin Quinn]

This is all good stuff,

> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.

How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.

Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each side of
each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then turning one out
of phase.

[Martin Quinn]

This is all good stuff,

> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of both
the
> M and the S.

How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal into
> the microphones.

Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each side of
each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then turning one out
of phase.

[Arny Krueger]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
> pre-recorded tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this
> (with choirs or orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to
> monitor the music? Many (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors
> turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
> few groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,

If your choir is using monitor speakers, then of course some of the track
will bleed into the choir mics. However, this is not necessarily a problem,
particularly if your monitors sound pretty good and your mics sound pretty
good off-axis.

The re-recorded track will pick up some of the acoustics of the room, and
make it sound more like the track is actually musicians playing in the room.
I find that I can crispen this up by mixing some of the track recording into
the mix, and it all comes out pretty well.

I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
but it seems to work pretty well.

[Arny Krueger]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
> pre-recorded tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this
> (with choirs or orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to
> monitor the music? Many (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors
> turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
> few groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,

If your choir is using monitor speakers, then of course some of the track
will bleed into the choir mics. However, this is not necessarily a problem,
particularly if your monitors sound pretty good and your mics sound pretty
good off-axis.

The re-recorded track will pick up some of the acoustics of the room, and
make it sound more like the track is actually musicians playing in the room.
I find that I can crispen this up by mixing some of the track recording into
the mix, and it all comes out pretty well.

I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
but it seems to work pretty well.

[Arny Krueger]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto
> pre-recorded tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this
> (with choirs or orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to
> monitor the music? Many (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors
> turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a
> few groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,

If your choir is using monitor speakers, then of course some of the track
will bleed into the choir mics. However, this is not necessarily a problem,
particularly if your monitors sound pretty good and your mics sound pretty
good off-axis.

The re-recorded track will pick up some of the acoustics of the room, and
make it sound more like the track is actually musicians playing in the room.
I find that I can crispen this up by mixing some of the track recording into
the mix, and it all comes out pretty well.

I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
but it seems to work pretty well.

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> This is all good stuff,
>
>> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of
>> both
> the
>> M and the S.
>
> How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

Distance is not really an issue except that the closer it is, the louder it
is in the microphone relative to the volume the choir hears.

>> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
>> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal
>> into the microphones.
>
> Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each
> side of each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then
> turning one out of phase.

I tend to place the speakers together just in front (nearer the choir) of
the microphones, angled a bit to the left and right for good coverage.
That way they aren't radiating directly into the mics.

"turning one out of phase"? Just attach the leads backwards. (- to +)

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> This is all good stuff,
>
>> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of
>> both
> the
>> M and the S.
>
> How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

Distance is not really an issue except that the closer it is, the louder it
is in the microphone relative to the volume the choir hears.

>> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
>> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal
>> into the microphones.
>
> Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each
> side of each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then
> turning one out of phase.

I tend to place the speakers together just in front (nearer the choir) of
the microphones, angled a bit to the left and right for good coverage.
That way they aren't radiating directly into the mics.

"turning one out of phase"? Just attach the leads backwards. (- to +)

[Carey Carlan]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in
:

> This is all good stuff,
>
>> In MS, a speaker directly behind the microphones is in the null of
>> both
> the
>> M and the S.
>
> How close to the MS pair would be a good start?

Distance is not really an issue except that the closer it is, the louder it
is in the microphone relative to the volume the choir hears.

>> In X-Y a pair of speakers equidistant from the pair in mono with one
>> speaker in reverse phase to the other will introduce the least signal
>> into the microphones.
>
> Can you explain this setup further? Does it just mean a speaker each
> side of each mic at equal distances (say 2 feet each side) and then
> turning one out of phase.

I tend to place the speakers together just in front (nearer the choir) of
the microphones, angled a bit to the left and right for good coverage.
That way they aren't radiating directly into the mics.

"turning one out of phase"? Just attach the leads backwards. (- to +)

[Richard Kuschel]

>I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
>but it seems to work pretty well.
>
>

It's my first choice if the room doesn't suck.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Richard Kuschel]

>I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
>but it seems to work pretty well.
>
>

It's my first choice if the room doesn't suck.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Richard Kuschel]

>I record my choir with 2 spaced small-diameter omnis. Not my first choice,
>but it seems to work pretty well.
>
>

It's my first choice if the room doesn't suck.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[EricK]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

The best way for the choir to monitor would definitely be with
headphones. If you can track down one of those small FM transmitters,
then get everybody to bring a walkman with an FM tuner in it. I am not
sure where to get those FM transmitters, Markertek maybe. I have
assisted on more than a few sessions where the engineer brought in a
small transmitter. Works like a charm.

Here is one from Markertek:
http://tinyurl.com/27zox

I think they are usually marketed to health clubs where they will have a
bunch of TV's on different channels, then the people on the treadmills
can tune their walkman to whatever frequency to hear the channel they
want to watch.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com

[EricK]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

The best way for the choir to monitor would definitely be with
headphones. If you can track down one of those small FM transmitters,
then get everybody to bring a walkman with an FM tuner in it. I am not
sure where to get those FM transmitters, Markertek maybe. I have
assisted on more than a few sessions where the engineer brought in a
small transmitter. Works like a charm.

Here is one from Markertek:
http://tinyurl.com/27zox

I think they are usually marketed to health clubs where they will have a
bunch of TV's on different channels, then the people on the treadmills
can tune their walkman to whatever frequency to hear the channel they
want to watch.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com

[EricK]

Martin Quinn wrote:

> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

The best way for the choir to monitor would definitely be with
headphones. If you can track down one of those small FM transmitters,
then get everybody to bring a walkman with an FM tuner in it. I am not
sure where to get those FM transmitters, Markertek maybe. I have
assisted on more than a few sessions where the engineer brought in a
small transmitter. Works like a charm.

Here is one from Markertek:
http://tinyurl.com/27zox

I think they are usually marketed to health clubs where they will have a
bunch of TV's on different channels, then the people on the treadmills
can tune their walkman to whatever frequency to hear the channel they
want to watch.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com

[Owain]

"Martin Quinn" wrote
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

Depending on the choir's abilities and the music type, do they really
need to hear the music anyway?

I'd have them practice the work unaccompanied, and then put headphones
with music feed on the conductor, lead bass, lead tenor, lead soprano
etc. Provided the choir keep in tempo with the leads and the conductor
they should be in tempo with the music.

Owain

[Owain]

"Martin Quinn" wrote
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

Depending on the choir's abilities and the music type, do they really
need to hear the music anyway?

I'd have them practice the work unaccompanied, and then put headphones
with music feed on the conductor, lead bass, lead tenor, lead soprano
etc. Provided the choir keep in tempo with the leads and the conductor
they should be in tempo with the music.

Owain

[Owain]

"Martin Quinn" wrote
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?

Depending on the choir's abilities and the music type, do they really
need to hear the music anyway?

I'd have them practice the work unaccompanied, and then put headphones
with music feed on the conductor, lead bass, lead tenor, lead soprano
etc. Provided the choir keep in tempo with the leads and the conductor
they should be in tempo with the music.

Owain

[Bob Singleton]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message >...
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,
>
> Martin

For a pop choir, the way to do the "out of phase" monitors is to do
*2* passes of choir without moving the monitors or mics, and without
changing the volume on the monitors. When mixing, you reverse the
phase on all tracks of either pass. That does a pretty credible job of
reducing the monitors, but it's definitely not going to be a
"classical" sounding choir.

If you're using headphones, go for it with the caveat that many choir
members may push one side of the headphones back off an ear to hear
the choir around them. Make sure that it isn't creating track bleed by
soloing the choir tracks and doing critical listening.

If you can find one, there are low-power FM transmitters that
broadcast in commercial FM frequencies. If you get enough low-priced
Sam's Club credit card sized FM receivers & headphones, you can do a
quick and effective headphone cue that way for under $10 a person.
Beware of headphone bleed if you do that, though.

I have an old beltpack Nady FM wireless transmitter that I use for
similar situations where I don't want to run cables and need to feed
multiple sets of ears. I'm sure that it is totally illegal by all FCC
standards by now. It'll broadcast a couple of blocks; and it's best to
get analog FM receivers that can dial in frequencies between the
standard ones.

Bob Singleton
Singleton Productions, Inc.

[Bob Singleton]

"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message >...
> I'm about to bring a out a mobile rig to record a choir onto pre-recorded
> tracks on a song. If you have much experience doing this (with choirs or
> orchestras) whats the best way for the choir to monitor the music? Many
> (30+) pairs of headphones or through monitors turned down low?
>
> I'd like to try M/S miking on the choir but will probably close mic a few
> groups of the choir and take an XY mix too for safety.
>
> All suggestions welcome,
>
> Martin

For a pop choir, the way to do the "out of phase" monitors is to do
*2* passes of choir without moving the monitors or mics, and without
changing the volume on the monitors. When mixing, you reverse the
phase on all tracks of either pass. That does a pretty credible job of
reducing the monitors, but it's definitely not going to be a
"classical" sounding choir.

If you're using headphones, go for it with the caveat that many choir
members may push one side of the headphones back off an ear to hear
the choir around them. Make sure that it isn't creating track bleed by
soloing the choir tracks and doing critical listening.

If you can find one, there are low-power FM transmitters that
broadcast in commercial FM frequencies. If you get enough low-priced
Sam's Club credit card sized FM receivers & headphones, you can do a
quick and effective headphone cue that way for under $10 a person.
Beware of headphone bleed if you do that, though.

I have an old beltpack Nady FM wireless transmitter that I use for
similar situations where I don't want to run cables and need to feed
multiple sets of ears. I'm sure that it is totally illegal by all FCC
standards by now. It'll broadcast a couple of blocks; and it's best to
get analog FM receivers that can dial in frequencies between the
standard ones.

Bob Singleton
Singleton Productions, Inc.

[Luca Logi]

EricK > wrote:

> The best way for the choir to monitor would definitely be with
> headphones. If you can track down one of those small FM transmitters,
> then get everybody to bring a walkman with an FM tuner in it. I am not
> sure where to get those FM transmitters, Markertek maybe. I have
> assisted on more than a few sessions where the engineer brought in a
> small transmitter. Works like a charm.

Sorry to be so late in replying. In such a situation I have seen
headphones being used with radio transmitters. Radio headphones are
frequently used in situations like international meetings where a
headphone translation is needed, and my friendly audio engineer
contacted such a service that arrived with all headphones already set
up, patched the transmitter into the monitor out, and a 50+ choir
overdub in a contemporary classical music setting was recorded with
individual headphones and minimal trouble. The quality of the headphones
wasn't stellar, but they were more than adequate to keep the ensemble
together.

In another situation with the same choir, a Decca recording that
subsequently won a Grammy award, a choir overdub was done with monitors
turned low.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

[Scott Dorsey]

Luca Logi > wrote:
>EricK > wrote:
>
>> The best way for the choir to monitor would definitely be with
>> headphones. If you can track down one of those small FM transmitters,
>> then get everybody to bring a walkman with an FM tuner in it. I am not
>> sure where to get those FM transmitters, Markertek maybe. I have
>> assisted on more than a few sessions where the engineer brought in a
>> small transmitter. Works like a charm.
>
>Sorry to be so late in replying. In such a situation I have seen
>headphones being used with radio transmitters. Radio headphones are
>frequently used in situations like international meetings where a
>headphone translation is needed, and my friendly audio engineer
>contacted such a service that arrived with all headphones already set
>up, patched the transmitter into the monitor out, and a 50+ choir
>overdub in a contemporary classical music setting was recorded with
>individual headphones and minimal trouble. The quality of the headphones
>wasn't stellar, but they were more than adequate to keep the ensemble
>together.
>
>In another situation with the same choir, a Decca recording that
>subsequently won a Grammy award, a choir overdub was done with monitors
>turned low.

I have never seen choirs that could stay together while wearing headphones.
There's no technical problem with distribution, the problem is that most
choirs are used to hearing each other in a particular way, and using
headphones disturbs that.

Using a single microphone pair and two out-of-phase wedges with the mike
at the null between them will be much less apt to screw the choir up.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Luca Logi]

Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> I have never seen choirs that could stay together while wearing headphones.
> There's no technical problem with distribution, the problem is that most
> choirs are used to hearing each other in a particular way, and using
> headphones disturbs that.

The headphone monitoring was used in a choir overdub in a very difficult
setting, a contemporary classical production that involved both live and
recorded section. The choir was to be overdubbed onto an instrumental
track that was subsequently used as an insert in the live performance.
By the way, this way a supporting electonic keyboard could be fed into
the headphone monitoring but not recorded, making the overdub much
easier and quicker. There were several excerpts to be recorded, but not
very long (each about ten bars).

I do not remember if some of the choir coming from the mics was fed back
into the headphones to keep them together. I remember that the headphone
volume was kept low to keep spillover low.


--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
> Using a single microphone pair and two out-of-phase wedges
> with the mike at the null between them will be much less apt
> to screw the choir up.

Now there's the kind of experienced, pracical advice that makes
wading trough all the fecal material in this newsgroup worthwhile.
Thanks, Scott.

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I have never seen choirs that could stay together while wearing headphones.
> There's no technical problem with distribution, the problem is that most
> choirs are used to hearing each other in a particular way, and using
> headphones disturbs that.

I always thought that giving everyone in the choir a set of headphones
was kind of a silly idea, but a studio friend of mine out in
California did it recently and got excellent results. He says that
this is becoming standard practice in the large LA studios.

This was a little different situation from the usual choir recording,
however. They were singing to prerecorded tracks, and that's what they
wanted to hear. Setting up speakers when the group recorded in a prior
gave him too much leakage (phasing problems between the direct tracks
and the playback as picked up by the choir mics) so he decided to try
headphones.

He got a big bag full of those Radio Shack headphone distribution
boxes and told the choir director to ask everyone in the group to
bring one or more sets of headphones to the session. They spent a
little time finding the ones that worked, swapped them among
themselves for comfort and volume, and proceeded to nail every take.
They (and he) were very happy with the way the session went, and loved
the final product.

This isn't an invitation to ask the questions "What's the best
headphones to get if I have to buy 60 of them?" When working with a
group like this (yeah, it was a low-budget church project, which is
why they used prerecorded and licensed tracks) you aren't working with
highly studio-experienced singers who expect a custom high fidelity
headphone mix. They just want to hear the track, and that's what they
got.

If it was a traditional choir with live musicians, he would have done
the recording in a more conventional manner.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo