Making a reverb from a piano.

[reddred]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>

My first thought was that you could make it like a spring reverb.

jb

[reddred]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>

My first thought was that you could make it like a spring reverb.

jb

[reddred]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>

My first thought was that you could make it like a spring reverb.

jb

[philicorda]

Hi.
I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.

Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.

The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
there to put much into the strings.

I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
tips?

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

Here's the software equivalent:
http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/piano.html

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

Here's the software equivalent:
http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/piano.html

[Ricky W. Hunt]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

Here's the software equivalent:
http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/piano.html

[**bg**]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?
____________________-
Hey p,

Put a heavy brick on the sustain pedal so that the strings are not
dampened.....?

Or ride the sustain pedal manually as the recording is being made, as the
strings might (occasionally) pick up too much energy and start
resonating/wolfing, thus giving you too much signal.

-bg-


www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[**bg**]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?
____________________-
Hey p,

Put a heavy brick on the sustain pedal so that the strings are not
dampened.....?

Or ride the sustain pedal manually as the recording is being made, as the
strings might (occasionally) pick up too much energy and start
resonating/wolfing, thus giving you too much signal.

-bg-


www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[**bg**]

"philicorda" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?
____________________-
Hey p,

Put a heavy brick on the sustain pedal so that the strings are not
dampened.....?

Or ride the sustain pedal manually as the recording is being made, as the
strings might (occasionally) pick up too much energy and start
resonating/wolfing, thus giving you too much signal.

-bg-


www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

[Studio Froombosch]

"philicorda" > schreef in bericht
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

There will be going on more than only the reverb, because the strings are
tuned. So with right on notes the strings will resonate and with bends they
will not. The resonators build in the eventides look a lot like it.


Kind regards,


Harrie

[Studio Froombosch]

"philicorda" > schreef in bericht
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

There will be going on more than only the reverb, because the strings are
tuned. So with right on notes the strings will resonate and with bends they
will not. The resonators build in the eventides look a lot like it.


Kind regards,


Harrie

[Studio Froombosch]

"philicorda" > schreef in bericht
news:pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntl world.com...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

There will be going on more than only the reverb, because the strings are
tuned. So with right on notes the strings will resonate and with bends they
will not. The resonators build in the eventides look a lot like it.


Kind regards,


Harrie

[Pietro]

I have to point out that the idea is not so original.. However, try
and experiment yourself! try different speackers.. microphones,
positioning.. or put your favorite cat inside the piano ;-)
I've recorded many Cage's , Bussotti's, etc. music.. and I assure you
there are a lot of things you can do with a piano..
P.s. sorry for my English.. I'm Italian.
Ciao,
Pietro

[Pietro]

I have to point out that the idea is not so original.. However, try
and experiment yourself! try different speackers.. microphones,
positioning.. or put your favorite cat inside the piano ;-)
I've recorded many Cage's , Bussotti's, etc. music.. and I assure you
there are a lot of things you can do with a piano..
P.s. sorry for my English.. I'm Italian.
Ciao,
Pietro

[Pietro]

I have to point out that the idea is not so original.. However, try
and experiment yourself! try different speackers.. microphones,
positioning.. or put your favorite cat inside the piano ;-)
I've recorded many Cage's , Bussotti's, etc. music.. and I assure you
there are a lot of things you can do with a piano..
P.s. sorry for my English.. I'm Italian.
Ciao,
Pietro

[John Fowler]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
to mind.

No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a
stab at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the
strings terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another
pick-up device attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would
have to consult the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler,
et. al. experts here to figure out the impedance considerations
required to get a pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or
mic pre run 'backwards', who knows.

On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that
transpired in studios involved people that had no clue of such
considerations, or, engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!',
etc. So, i would try any and every way, figure out how to do it clean,
how to do it 'fun', etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to
something here, Phil. It deserves full and comprehensive
investigation.

I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
switch back and forth as to which is which.

My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
*front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various
sympathetic vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also
adding that this enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as
opposed to the back of the soundboard, which is open.

For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be
up to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get
better pick-ups to do the job.

Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
report back to us your experiences.

OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.

Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!


JF

[John Fowler]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
to mind.

No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a
stab at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the
strings terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another
pick-up device attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would
have to consult the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler,
et. al. experts here to figure out the impedance considerations
required to get a pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or
mic pre run 'backwards', who knows.

On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that
transpired in studios involved people that had no clue of such
considerations, or, engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!',
etc. So, i would try any and every way, figure out how to do it clean,
how to do it 'fun', etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to
something here, Phil. It deserves full and comprehensive
investigation.

I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
switch back and forth as to which is which.

My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
*front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various
sympathetic vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also
adding that this enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as
opposed to the back of the soundboard, which is open.

For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be
up to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get
better pick-ups to do the job.

Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
report back to us your experiences.

OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.

Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!


JF

[John Fowler]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
to mind.

No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a
stab at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the
strings terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another
pick-up device attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would
have to consult the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler,
et. al. experts here to figure out the impedance considerations
required to get a pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or
mic pre run 'backwards', who knows.

On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that
transpired in studios involved people that had no clue of such
considerations, or, engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!',
etc. So, i would try any and every way, figure out how to do it clean,
how to do it 'fun', etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to
something here, Phil. It deserves full and comprehensive
investigation.

I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
switch back and forth as to which is which.

My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
*front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various
sympathetic vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also
adding that this enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as
opposed to the back of the soundboard, which is open.

For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be
up to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get
better pick-ups to do the job.

Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
report back to us your experiences.

OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.

Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!


JF

[John Fowler]

I forgot to add, if you value your ears at all, or if you are not a
'tin ear', avoid plugins. You are definitely on the right track here,
philico.

[John Fowler]

I forgot to add, if you value your ears at all, or if you are not a
'tin ear', avoid plugins. You are definitely on the right track here,
philico.

[John Fowler]

I forgot to add, if you value your ears at all, or if you are not a
'tin ear', avoid plugins. You are definitely on the right track here,
philico.

[Fill X]

well i just stick a mic in the piano and tape down the keys of the stings I
might want to resonate or the sustain pedal itself. I move the mic around to
taste and sometimes take a pzm on the sound board too.

This isn't an extreme sound but it's a neat one. Then again, I put tin foil on
piano strings to get them to buzz, so maybe you;re asking the wrong person.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Fill X]

well i just stick a mic in the piano and tape down the keys of the stings I
might want to resonate or the sustain pedal itself. I move the mic around to
taste and sometimes take a pzm on the sound board too.

This isn't an extreme sound but it's a neat one. Then again, I put tin foil on
piano strings to get them to buzz, so maybe you;re asking the wrong person.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Fill X]

well i just stick a mic in the piano and tape down the keys of the stings I
might want to resonate or the sustain pedal itself. I move the mic around to
taste and sometimes take a pzm on the sound board too.

This isn't an extreme sound but it's a neat one. Then again, I put tin foil on
piano strings to get them to buzz, so maybe you;re asking the wrong person.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Paul Stamler]

Hi:

A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

Hi:

A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

Hi:

A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?

Peace,
Paul

[Garry Eister]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
"Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
(sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
(monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
look forward to hearing more about your project.

Garry Eister

[Garry Eister]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
"Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
(sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
(monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
look forward to hearing more about your project.

Garry Eister

[Garry Eister]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
"Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
(sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
(monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
look forward to hearing more about your project.

Garry Eister

[Logan Shaw]

philicorda wrote:

> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.

Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
it's a good idea though.

> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.

If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.

I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud.

My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
(where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty
loud noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't
get a useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings
and using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want
to do some kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the
sound that you picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could
just mic the speaker and then invert the polarity of that (and time
delay it) and use that to cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the
strings moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency.
So since you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage
of the fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher
notes have 2 or 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper
tuning, then tune one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents.
Or, just go the whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another
down by 66.6 cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced
frequencies for every half step, so you will pick up more sounds.
I wonder how that would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

philicorda wrote:

> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.

Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
it's a good idea though.

> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.

If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.

I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud.

My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
(where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty
loud noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't
get a useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings
and using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want
to do some kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the
sound that you picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could
just mic the speaker and then invert the polarity of that (and time
delay it) and use that to cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the
strings moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency.
So since you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage
of the fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher
notes have 2 or 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper
tuning, then tune one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents.
Or, just go the whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another
down by 66.6 cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced
frequencies for every half step, so you will pick up more sounds.
I wonder how that would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

philicorda wrote:

> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.

Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
it's a good idea though.

> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.

If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.

I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud.

My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
(where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty
loud noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't
get a useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings
and using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want
to do some kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the
sound that you picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could
just mic the speaker and then invert the polarity of that (and time
delay it) and use that to cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the
strings moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency.
So since you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage
of the fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher
notes have 2 or 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper
tuning, then tune one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents.
Or, just go the whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another
down by 66.6 cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced
frequencies for every half step, so you will pick up more sounds.
I wonder how that would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.

- Logan

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 04:56:40 -0700, John Fowler wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>> Hi.
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>> there to put much into the strings.
>>
>> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>> tips?
>
>
> Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
> from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
> idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
> to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
> for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
> to mind.

Ah, I love that kind of stuff.
I have a track where we played the piano strings with knives, if you
bounce them really lightly on the strings, and only undamp the string you
want, it sounds like a hammer dulcimer. It's really hard to play more than
one string at once like this (You can't get enough people to operate the
knives and dampers in the same place), so we tracked up three passes to
get chords.

>
> No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
> the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
> recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
> 'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a stab
> at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the strings
> terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another pick-up device
> attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would have to consult
> the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler, et. al. experts
> here to figure out the impedance considerations required to get a
> pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or mic pre run
> 'backwards', who knows.
>
> On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that transpired
> in studios involved people that had no clue of such considerations, or,
> engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!', etc. So, i would try
> any and every way, figure out how to do it clean, how to do it 'fun',
> etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to something here, Phil. It
> deserves full and comprehensive investigation.
>
> I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
> peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
> various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
> perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
> the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
> switch back and forth as to which is which.

Hmmm. 5 piezos might give some kind of surround sound too?
>
> My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
> *front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various sympathetic
> vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also adding that this
> enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as opposed to the back of
> the soundboard, which is open.

The pickups I have been promised (I don't actually have them yet, but they
are as good as mine) are apparently very long magnetic ones that you mount
just above the strings, and they work like guitar pickups..

I had not considered using them the other way round for the 'input'! But
there is no reason why not. I don't want to burn them out, so perhaps a
headphone amp would have the right amount of juice and be able to drive a
hi impedence load?

I'm pretty sure I've had my ebow working on a piano
string. Mmmmmm Piano sized ebow.... No stoppit!

I suspect using little condenser mics or something like contact mics on
the soundboard might actually sound nicer than these magnetic pickups. I
doubt they would have much in the way of top end if they are big coils...



>
> For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be up
> to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
> which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get better
> pick-ups to do the job.
>
> Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
> The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
> put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
> report back to us your experiences.
>
> OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
> go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
> wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
> slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
> money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.
>
> Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
> file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!

As an ex classical guitarist (I used to practice properly) I
recommend using a diamond file and the finest sandpaper you can find. Get
three grades, from the stuff you can feel (500 ish), down to the sheets
that are almost like plain paper. A diamond file and a few sheets of
sandpaper will last a lifetime, and while your nails may not look the
best, you will always have great tone. :)

>
> JF

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 04:56:40 -0700, John Fowler wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>> Hi.
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>> there to put much into the strings.
>>
>> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>> tips?
>
>
> Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
> from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
> idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
> to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
> for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
> to mind.

Ah, I love that kind of stuff.
I have a track where we played the piano strings with knives, if you
bounce them really lightly on the strings, and only undamp the string you
want, it sounds like a hammer dulcimer. It's really hard to play more than
one string at once like this (You can't get enough people to operate the
knives and dampers in the same place), so we tracked up three passes to
get chords.

>
> No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
> the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
> recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
> 'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a stab
> at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the strings
> terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another pick-up device
> attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would have to consult
> the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler, et. al. experts
> here to figure out the impedance considerations required to get a
> pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or mic pre run
> 'backwards', who knows.
>
> On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that transpired
> in studios involved people that had no clue of such considerations, or,
> engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!', etc. So, i would try
> any and every way, figure out how to do it clean, how to do it 'fun',
> etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to something here, Phil. It
> deserves full and comprehensive investigation.
>
> I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
> peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
> various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
> perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
> the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
> switch back and forth as to which is which.

Hmmm. 5 piezos might give some kind of surround sound too?
>
> My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
> *front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various sympathetic
> vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also adding that this
> enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as opposed to the back of
> the soundboard, which is open.

The pickups I have been promised (I don't actually have them yet, but they
are as good as mine) are apparently very long magnetic ones that you mount
just above the strings, and they work like guitar pickups..

I had not considered using them the other way round for the 'input'! But
there is no reason why not. I don't want to burn them out, so perhaps a
headphone amp would have the right amount of juice and be able to drive a
hi impedence load?

I'm pretty sure I've had my ebow working on a piano
string. Mmmmmm Piano sized ebow.... No stoppit!

I suspect using little condenser mics or something like contact mics on
the soundboard might actually sound nicer than these magnetic pickups. I
doubt they would have much in the way of top end if they are big coils...



>
> For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be up
> to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
> which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get better
> pick-ups to do the job.
>
> Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
> The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
> put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
> report back to us your experiences.
>
> OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
> go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
> wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
> slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
> money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.
>
> Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
> file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!

As an ex classical guitarist (I used to practice properly) I
recommend using a diamond file and the finest sandpaper you can find. Get
three grades, from the stuff you can feel (500 ish), down to the sheets
that are almost like plain paper. A diamond file and a few sheets of
sandpaper will last a lifetime, and while your nails may not look the
best, you will always have great tone. :)

>
> JF

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 04:56:40 -0700, John Fowler wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>> Hi.
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>> there to put much into the strings.
>>
>> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>> tips?
>
>
> Bloggers!. What a question!. I don't know that you will get responses
> from those whith actual experience there, as that is a very unique
> idea. Brian Wilson using a guitar pick 'round the back of an upright
> to pluck the strings whilst the player held down the sustain pedal,
> for the intro of "You Still Believe In Me" on Pet Sounds comes closest
> to mind.

Ah, I love that kind of stuff.
I have a track where we played the piano strings with knives, if you
bounce them really lightly on the strings, and only undamp the string you
want, it sounds like a hammer dulcimer. It's really hard to play more than
one string at once like this (You can't get enough people to operate the
knives and dampers in the same place), so we tracked up three passes to
get chords.

>
> No real tips here, just some ideas to toss about. My first thoughts on
> the matter is that 'transducers is transducers'. I made a half-decent
> recording of a thunderstorm years ago using my headphones as a
> 'microphone'. I don't know your budget, but, were it me, I'd take a stab
> at using some pick-up attatched firmly to the bridge (where the strings
> terminate at the bottom),for the 'input'. Then, another pick-up device
> attatched to the soundboard as the 'output'. You would have to consult
> the likes of Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers, Paul Stamler, et. al. experts
> here to figure out the impedance considerations required to get a
> pick-up to act as an 'input' device. Perhaps a DI or mic pre run
> 'backwards', who knows.
>
> On the other hand, recall that a lot of the 'fun' stuff that transpired
> in studios involved people that had no clue of such considerations, or,
> engineers saying 'but wait! you can't do that!', etc. So, i would try
> any and every way, figure out how to do it clean, how to do it 'fun',
> etc. You are, in my estimation, really on to something here, Phil. It
> deserves full and comprehensive investigation.
>
> I would recommend that you get a small pile of the cheapest
> peizoelectric trandsducers, and just start tacking them into or onto
> various places on the piano. This will allow you to experiment and,
> perhaps, prove me entirely wrong on my earlier supposition as to where
> the 'input' and 'output' devices should be. Wherever you put them,
> switch back and forth as to which is which.

Hmmm. 5 piezos might give some kind of surround sound too?
>
> My first experiment would be to place the 'output' pick-up on the
> *front* of the soundboard, so as to grab more of the various sympathetic
> vibrations of the strings, i.e., inside the piano, also adding that this
> enclosure makes an actual reverberant space, as opposed to the back of
> the soundboard, which is open.

The pickups I have been promised (I don't actually have them yet, but they
are as good as mine) are apparently very long magnetic ones that you mount
just above the strings, and they work like guitar pickups..

I had not considered using them the other way round for the 'input'! But
there is no reason why not. I don't want to burn them out, so perhaps a
headphone amp would have the right amount of juice and be able to drive a
hi impedence load?

I'm pretty sure I've had my ebow working on a piano
string. Mmmmmm Piano sized ebow.... No stoppit!

I suspect using little condenser mics or something like contact mics on
the soundboard might actually sound nicer than these magnetic pickups. I
doubt they would have much in the way of top end if they are big coils...



>
> For this purpose, the cheapest pick-up devices you can find should be up
> to the task of answering the questions as to where to put them, and
> which should be doing what. Once that is established, you can get better
> pick-ups to do the job.
>
> Well, thanks for contributing to my already substantial insomnia here.
> The most interesting question/post I've seen here in a long time. Just
> put a brick on that sustain peddle and have yourself some fun. Please
> report back to us your experiences.
>
> OH! I almost forgot. I have a question for the experts here, before i
> go. I'm wanting to do away with my manicurist, because she actually
> wants money from me, to feed her kids and stuff. I consider her as
> slime, for not being a true manicure 'artiste', and acually wanting
> money from me for digging the filth out of my nails.
>
> Can any of the professional manicurists here recommend the best nail
> file for under $1.29 ? You know i luv ya!

As an ex classical guitarist (I used to practice properly) I
recommend using a diamond file and the finest sandpaper you can find. Get
three grades, from the stuff you can feel (500 ish), down to the sheets
that are almost like plain paper. A diamond file and a few sheets of
sandpaper will last a lifetime, and while your nails may not look the
best, you will always have great tone. :)

>
> JF

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:15:36 +0000, Paul Stamler wrote:

> Hi:
>
> A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
> on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?
>
> Peace,
> Paul

I will definately leave the stings on, I want them resonating. The piano
is not very in tune as I tried to tune it myself (MUCH harder than it
looks), but this might actually be an advantage as a reverb.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:15:36 +0000, Paul Stamler wrote:

> Hi:
>
> A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
> on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?
>
> Peace,
> Paul

I will definately leave the stings on, I want them resonating. The piano
is not very in tune as I tried to tune it myself (MUCH harder than it
looks), but this might actually be an advantage as a reverb.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:15:36 +0000, Paul Stamler wrote:

> Hi:
>
> A question for the original poster: were you planning to leave the strings
> on, or remove them and just use the frame as a reverb device?
>
> Peace,
> Paul

I will definately leave the stings on, I want them resonating. The piano
is not very in tune as I tried to tune it myself (MUCH harder than it
looks), but this might actually be an advantage as a reverb.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 21:43:08 +0000, Logan Shaw wrote:

> philicorda wrote:
>
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
> his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
> for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
> it's a good idea though.
>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
> work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
> That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
> strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.
>
> I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
> and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
> variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
> like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
> you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
> guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
> move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
> them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
> Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
> key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
> to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
magnetic.

I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
as the pickup.

>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but
>> might be a little loud.
>
> My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
> (where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
> experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty loud
> noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't get a
> useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings and
> using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want to do some
> kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the sound that you
> picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could just mic the speaker
> and then invert the polarity of that (and time delay it) and use that to
> cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Perhaps bolting the speaker to the harp would transfer more of the sound
to the strings too. If it is done totally electronicly I could remove the
harp from the piano and suspend it.. the sound board would not be required.

>
> Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the strings
> moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency. So since
> you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage of the
> fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher notes have 2 or
> 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper tuning, then tune
> one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents. Or, just go the
> whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another down by 66.6
> cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced frequencies for
> every half step, so you will pick up more sounds. I wonder how that
> would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

I had a go at tuning it myself, so it's probably not far off that already.
:)

>
> By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
> strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
> to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.
>
> - Logan

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 21:43:08 +0000, Logan Shaw wrote:

> philicorda wrote:
>
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
> his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
> for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
> it's a good idea though.
>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
> work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
> That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
> strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.
>
> I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
> and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
> variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
> like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
> you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
> guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
> move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
> them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
> Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
> key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
> to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
magnetic.

I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
as the pickup.

>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but
>> might be a little loud.
>
> My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
> (where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
> experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty loud
> noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't get a
> useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings and
> using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want to do some
> kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the sound that you
> picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could just mic the speaker
> and then invert the polarity of that (and time delay it) and use that to
> cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Perhaps bolting the speaker to the harp would transfer more of the sound
to the strings too. If it is done totally electronicly I could remove the
harp from the piano and suspend it.. the sound board would not be required.

>
> Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the strings
> moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency. So since
> you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage of the
> fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher notes have 2 or
> 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper tuning, then tune
> one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents. Or, just go the
> whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another down by 66.6
> cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced frequencies for
> every half step, so you will pick up more sounds. I wonder how that
> would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

I had a go at tuning it myself, so it's probably not far off that already.
:)

>
> By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
> strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
> to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.
>
> - Logan

[philicorda]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 21:43:08 +0000, Logan Shaw wrote:

> philicorda wrote:
>
>> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Heh, I had that idea when I was young and told my piano teacher, and
> his response was something like, "Heh, what would you want to do that
> for, and besides, what on earth are you talking about?". I still think
> it's a good idea though.
>
>> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> If I were doing it, I would definitely want to go with pickups that
> work electronically/magnetically instead of mechnically/acoustically.
> That way, you should be able to pick up *only* the vibration of the
> strings and not whatever source you're using to excite them.
>
> I'm not extremely familiar with piano pickups, but I looked online
> and all the ones I can find seem to be of the mechnical/acoustic
> variety, which is a bummer. Maybe there really are magnetic ones
> like you describe, and if so that'd work great. If not, I suppose
> you could either build your own or buy a number of cheap electric
> guitar pickups and mix together their outputs. (You could even
> move them to different positions to get different sounds. Move
> them to higher or lower registers to get lower or higher reverb.
> Or even tune the things for the individual song: if it's in the
> key of A, then put pickups only on the various strings that are tuned
> to some A and get kind of a reverbo continuo thing going.)

I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
magnetic.

I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
as the pickup.

>
>> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but
>> might be a little loud.
>
> My piano is a studio type and you can easily remove the front cover
> (where the sheet music sits) and see the tops of the strings. My
> experiments with this indicate that you do have to make a pretty loud
> noise to get things resonating. But not so loud that you couldn't get a
> useful effect out of it, even if you were just micing the strings and
> using a speaker to excite them. However, you'd probably want to do some
> kind of limiting or other processing to minimize the sound that you
> picked up from the speaker. Seems like you could just mic the speaker
> and then invert the polarity of that (and time delay it) and use that to
> cancel out the sound of speaker, mostly.

Perhaps bolting the speaker to the harp would transfer more of the sound
to the strings too. If it is done totally electronicly I could remove the
harp from the piano and suspend it.. the sound board would not be required.

>
> Another weird idea: others have mentioned that you only get the strings
> moving if the signal that excites them matches the frequency. So since
> you seem willing to trash the piano, you could take advantage of the
> fact that a piano has more than 88 strings. The higher notes have 2 or
> 3 strings, and you could leave one string in proper tuning, then tune
> one up an extra 5 cents and another down by 5 cents. Or, just go the
> whole way and tune one down by 33.3 cents and another down by 66.6
> cents. Then you have three different, evenly spaced frequencies for
> every half step, so you will pick up more sounds. I wonder how that
> would sound. Probably pretty harsh and grating...

I had a go at tuning it myself, so it's probably not far off that already.
:)

>
> By the way, you don't have to tape the keys down just to keep the
> strings open. You can use rubber bands or pieces of string or something
> to keep the appropriate dampers off the strings.
>
> - Logan

[Richard Kuschel]

>Hi.
>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would
>be
>there to put much into the strings.
>
>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>tips?
>
>
>

Wouldn't be too hard. somewhere around the Houde I have a heavy transducer that
could be attached to about any surface and turn it into a speaker.

then allyou need are some piano pickups such as those made by Barcus Berry to
attach to the other end of the soundboard.

Hell, I might even try it myself.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Richard Kuschel]

>Hi.
>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would
>be
>there to put much into the strings.
>
>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>tips?
>
>
>

Wouldn't be too hard. somewhere around the Houde I have a heavy transducer that
could be attached to about any surface and turn it into a speaker.

then allyou need are some piano pickups such as those made by Barcus Berry to
attach to the other end of the soundboard.

Hell, I might even try it myself.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[Richard Kuschel]

>Hi.
>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would
>be
>there to put much into the strings.
>
>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>tips?
>
>
>

Wouldn't be too hard. somewhere around the Houde I have a heavy transducer that
could be attached to about any surface and turn it into a speaker.

then allyou need are some piano pickups such as those made by Barcus Berry to
attach to the other end of the soundboard.

Hell, I might even try it myself.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[S O'Neill]

philicorda wrote:



> I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
> the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
> described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
> magnetic.
>
> I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
> give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
> as the pickup.
>
>

Maybe a junk Fender Rhodes or two will get you enough pickups, the
spacing may aready be right if you left them on the brackets.

[S O'Neill]

philicorda wrote:



> I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
> the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
> described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
> magnetic.
>
> I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
> give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
> as the pickup.
>
>

Maybe a junk Fender Rhodes or two will get you enough pickups, the
spacing may aready be right if you left them on the brackets.

[S O'Neill]

philicorda wrote:



> I will not yet get my sticky little fingers on these pickups until after
> the weekend, so it remains to be seen exactly how they work. The geezer
> described them as being big coils though, so I'm pretty sure they must be
> magnetic.
>
> I've got a box of old guitar pickups round here somewhere though, so I'll
> give it a go tommorow, using one to drive some of the strings and another
> as the pickup.
>
>

Maybe a junk Fender Rhodes or two will get you enough pickups, the
spacing may aready be right if you left them on the brackets.

[Paul Stamler]

"Garry Eister" > wrote in message
om...

> About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
> "Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
> There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
> (sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
> movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
> the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
> effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
> (monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
> one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
> piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
> kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
> screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
> of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
> then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
> might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
> that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
> was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
> music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
> doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
> resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
> your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
> look forward to hearing more about your project.

Robin Williamson, then with the Incredible String Band, recorded a track
with what he called a "voice sitar". He sang into the front of a sitar; a
pickup (electromagnetic, I think) sent the sound into a DI and thence into
the board. Because it used a pickup, there was almost none of his voice in
the sitar track, so he could adjust the blend at will. Sounded very nice.

Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Garry Eister" > wrote in message
om...

> About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
> "Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
> There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
> (sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
> movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
> the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
> effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
> (monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
> one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
> piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
> kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
> screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
> of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
> then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
> might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
> that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
> was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
> music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
> doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
> resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
> your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
> look forward to hearing more about your project.

Robin Williamson, then with the Incredible String Band, recorded a track
with what he called a "voice sitar". He sang into the front of a sitar; a
pickup (electromagnetic, I think) sent the sound into a DI and thence into
the board. Because it used a pickup, there was almost none of his voice in
the sitar track, so he could adjust the blend at will. Sounded very nice.

Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Garry Eister" > wrote in message
om...

> About 35 years ago, a composer named George Crumb wrote a piece called
> "Ancient Voices of Children." It's for soprano and chamber ensemble.
> There's a wonderful recording of it, featuring soprano Jan de Gaetani
> (sp?) and conductor Arthur Weisberg. In the piece, there is a
> movement where she sings an elaborate vocalise into the piano while
> the player holds the damper pedal down. In this piece, it's a magical
> effect. I was a compostition student at the time, and
> (monkey-see-monkey-do) imitated it in a couple of pieces of my own. In
> one, I had a singer amplified and simply used a speaker aimed at the
> piano harp to get the effect. This works well. In another, I had some
> kind of wall-mount transducer (basically a speaker coil with a wood
> screw on the end of it.) I screwed this into a board (I have no idea
> of its dimensions anymore) and placed the board on the piano harp. I
> then sent the amplified sound of a harpsichord into the piano. As you
> might imagine, this worked much less well than the speaker. I think
> that one important thing that all three of these pieces had in common
> was that the damper pedal was still fully operational. If you play
> music whose tonal center doesn't change (the way that Indian music's
> doesn't, for instance) then you'll get wonderful sympathetic
> resonances by using piano strings as a reverb; it will sound as though
> your piano had become a big, bright sitar. However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for. But I'm a big fan of experimentation, and I
> look forward to hearing more about your project.

Robin Williamson, then with the Incredible String Band, recorded a track
with what he called a "voice sitar". He sang into the front of a sitar; a
pickup (electromagnetic, I think) sent the sound into a DI and thence into
the board. Because it used a pickup, there was almost none of his voice in
the sitar track, so he could adjust the blend at will. Sounded very nice.

Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Peace,
Paul

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...

> Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
to use for this application?" :)
--


Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock
http://www.saqqararecords.com

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...

> Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
to use for this application?" :)
--


Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock
http://www.saqqararecords.com

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...

> Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
to use for this application?" :)
--


Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[hank alrich]

neil.hendersonwrote:

> "Paul Stamler" wrote

> > Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> > grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> > resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> > particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

> Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
> to use for this application?" :)

The vintage recycled ones with lttle bits of mortar still clinging to
the brick offer better diffusion of the early reflections.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

neil.hendersonwrote:

> "Paul Stamler" wrote

> > Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> > grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> > resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> > particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

> Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
> to use for this application?" :)

The vintage recycled ones with lttle bits of mortar still clinging to
the brick offer better diffusion of the early reflections.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

neil.hendersonwrote:

> "Paul Stamler" wrote

> > Joni Mitchell's entire first album was recorded with her standing over a
> > grand piano with the top removed and a brick on the sustain pedal. The
> > resonances were picked up by her vocal and guitar mics. Can't say I
> > particularly liked the result, but a lot of folks did.

> Which, of course, begs the question: "What's the best brick for under $2.00
> to use for this application?" :)

The vintage recycled ones with lttle bits of mortar still clinging to
the brick offer better diffusion of the early reflections.

--
ha

[unitron]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

[unitron]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

[unitron]

philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?


Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

[Studio Froombosch]

However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for.

I recently used some resonator patches on the H8000 from eventide. They are
almost thre same kind of thing. It is possible to tune them as you like and
there is no spill or other problems. Worked well when playing some of-scale
gitar parts and the resonators tuned to the right chords.

Harrie
www.studiofroombosch.com

[Studio Froombosch]

However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for.

I recently used some resonator patches on the H8000 from eventide. They are
almost thre same kind of thing. It is possible to tune them as you like and
there is no spill or other problems. Worked well when playing some of-scale
gitar parts and the resonators tuned to the right chords.

Harrie
www.studiofroombosch.com

[Studio Froombosch]

However, I'm guessing
> that if you play more traditional Euro-American type harmonies, you
> might get more blurring than you want. (You could easily experiment
> with this: stick a speaker in fornt of a piano, hold the pedal down,
> play some music through the speaker, and listen.) Of course, I don't
> know how much blurring you want nor do I know what kind (or kinds) of
> music you intend this for.

I recently used some resonator patches on the H8000 from eventide. They are
almost thre same kind of thing. It is possible to tune them as you like and
there is no spill or other problems. Worked well when playing some of-scale
gitar parts and the resonators tuned to the right chords.

Harrie
www.studiofroombosch.com

[S O'Neill]

unitron wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>
>>Hi.
>>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>>there to put much into the strings.
>>
>>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>>tips?
>
>
>
> Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

I heard a piece about ten years ago where a Stratocaster was driven from
one pickup and recorded from another. It was tuned to an open chord.
As you might imagine, it was very legato without much attack and very
little of the original could be heard.

[S O'Neill]

unitron wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>
>>Hi.
>>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>>there to put much into the strings.
>>
>>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>>tips?
>
>
>
> Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

I heard a piece about ten years ago where a Stratocaster was driven from
one pickup and recorded from another. It was tuned to an open chord.
As you might imagine, it was very legato without much attack and very
little of the original could be heard.

[S O'Neill]

unitron wrote:

> philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
>
>>Hi.
>>I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
>>an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>>
>>Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
>>piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>>
>>The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
>>the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
>>be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
>>plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
>>the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
>>thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
>>there to put much into the strings.
>>
>>I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
>>tips?
>
>
>
> Have you considered using some of the pickups as drivers?

I heard a piece about ten years ago where a Stratocaster was driven from
one pickup and recorded from another. It was tuned to an open chord.
As you might imagine, it was very legato without much attack and very
little of the original could be heard.

[mr c deckard]

hey -- had this very idea when i had kristeen young's piano dismantled
for some mods i did to it a few years back . . . although i haven't
gotten a harp yet, i had something similar in mind -- ripping a cone
off a speaker and attaching it to the harp. something like the driver
from an emt140 would be better, i suppose. i was thinking that if you
attached the driver to the brass frame, and perhaps a piezo pickup to
the soundboard, you could get somewhere.

i was going to leave the dampeners intact so that i could fasten/tape
down the keys i wanted (perhaps have someone change the chords with
song. . .)

of course, now, i'm mostly giving up the idea and am planning on
taking a bunch of impulse responses (C maj, C maj7, Dsus4 inv, etc)
from the studio piano for something like altiverb . . . ah computers.


best of luck,
chris deckard
saint louis moe




philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

[mr c deckard]

hey -- had this very idea when i had kristeen young's piano dismantled
for some mods i did to it a few years back . . . although i haven't
gotten a harp yet, i had something similar in mind -- ripping a cone
off a speaker and attaching it to the harp. something like the driver
from an emt140 would be better, i suppose. i was thinking that if you
attached the driver to the brass frame, and perhaps a piezo pickup to
the soundboard, you could get somewhere.

i was going to leave the dampeners intact so that i could fasten/tape
down the keys i wanted (perhaps have someone change the chords with
song. . .)

of course, now, i'm mostly giving up the idea and am planning on
taking a bunch of impulse responses (C maj, C maj7, Dsus4 inv, etc)
from the studio piano for something like altiverb . . . ah computers.


best of luck,
chris deckard
saint louis moe




philicorda > wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.27.23.23.40.334246@nossppammmmntlworld .com>...
> Hi.
> I've had the idea in my head for a long time that a piano harp would make
> an interesting reverb, in somewhat the same way a plate reverb works.
>
> Now I have found a knackerd old upright, a promise of some long magnetic
> piano pickups and a little time to bodge it all together.
>
> The only thing that remains is to find a way of getting the signal into
> the strings. Using a speaker in the piano would probably work, but might
> be a little loud. Some kind of coneless speaker like they use on real
> plates might work, perhaps attatched to a bridge held by springs against
> the strings? Or perhaps it could be attached to the harp, and the whole
> thing removed from the piano and suspended, but I doubt the power would be
> there to put much into the strings.
>
> I wondered if anyone else has had a bash at anything like this and has any
> tips?

[Logan Shaw]

mr c deckard wrote:
> hey -- had this very idea when i had kristeen young's piano dismantled
> for some mods i did to it a few years back . . . although i haven't
> gotten a harp yet, i had something similar in mind -- ripping a cone
> off a speaker and attaching it to the harp. something like the driver
> from an emt140 would be better, i suppose. i was thinking that if you
> attached the driver to the brass frame, and perhaps a piezo pickup to
> the soundboard, you could get somewhere.
>
> i was going to leave the dampeners intact so that i could fasten/tape
> down the keys i wanted (perhaps have someone change the chords with
> song. . .)

It doesn't seem like it'd be all that hard, believe it or not, to modify
a piano so that the hammers don't strike when you hit the keys. If
you do this, then you could go a step further and change the strings
that are undamped as the chords change in the song. So the piano
could become sort of a combination of a reverb and an instrument.

The best way I can think of to do it non-intrusively (i.e. without
permanently screwing up the piano) is this: in the action of an
upright (or a studio, at least, I don't know if spinets are the
same), you will see a little "L" shaped piece. The "L" is designed
to transfer force from the key to the hammer. But it's also designed
to swing out of the way and let the hammer fall back from the string
once it has struck; otherwise, the hammer would rest on the string
and that'd be bad.

Anyway, as the key is struck, the force travels up through the long
part of the "L" from the corner to the top. But then when the "L"
has moved up (the whole "L" moves upward), the foot of the "L" catches
on a felt piece. This causes the "L" to tip to the side, so that the
tall part of the "L" is out of the way of the piece attached to the
hammer, allowing the hammer to fall back down.

Anyway, the point is that when you release the key, the "L" is
spring-loaded and pops back into place, so it will be there to push
on the hammer next time. But if you do something to interrupt this,
the "L" will always be in the position where it doesn't cause the
hammer to move. If you did that, then when you hit a key, all it
would do is lift the damper but not throw the hammer.

In other words, if you jam, say, a thick piece of felt *behind*
the "L", so that the "L" is always tipped forward (contrary to its
spring-loaded nature), then you can play all the keys you want without
hammers striking the strings, and that would give you the ability
to change which strings resonate at will. (Well, to the extent
that you could reach the big wide open chords that you probably
would want to reach...)

Hmm, now I want a piano with two manuals on it: one to control
the dampers only, and one that controls both dampers and hammers
in the traditional way. Then I can hold down my reverb-chords
with one hand and play notes under them in the left. It could
be a whole new style of playing, but it would take a lot of
creativity (not to mention knowledge of the relationships between
overtones of all different intervals) to do really exploit it...

- Logan

[Logan Shaw]

mr c deckard wrote:
> hey -- had this very idea when i had kristeen young's piano dismantled
> for some mods i did to it a few years back . . . although i haven't
> gotten a harp yet, i had something similar in mind -- ripping a cone
> off a speaker and attaching it to the harp. something like the driver
> from an emt140 would be better, i suppose. i was thinking that if you
> attached the driver to the brass frame, and perhaps a piezo pickup to
> the soundboard, you could get somewhere.
>
> i was going to leave the dampeners intact so that i could fasten/tape
> down the keys i wanted (perhaps have someone change the chords with
> song. . .)

It doesn't seem like it'd be all that hard, believe it or not, to modify
a piano so that the hammers don't strike when you hit the keys. If
you do this, then you could go a step further and change the strings
that are undamped as the chords change in the song. So the piano
could become sort of a combination of a reverb and an instrument.

The best way I can think of to do it non-intrusively (i.e. without
permanently screwing up the piano) is this: in the action of an
upright (or a studio, at least, I don't know if spinets are the
same), you will see a little "L" shaped piece. The "L" is designed
to transfer force from the key to the hammer. But it's also designed
to swing out of the way and let the hammer fall back from the string
once it has struck; otherwise, the hammer would rest on the string
and that'd be bad.

Anyway, as the key is struck, the force travels up through the long
part of the "L" from the corner to the top. But then when the "L"
has moved up (the whole "L" moves upward), the foot of the "L" catches
on a felt piece. This causes the "L" to tip to the side, so that the
tall part of the "L" is out of the way of the piece attached to the
hammer, allowing the hammer to fall back down.

Anyway, the point is that when you release the key, the "L" is
spring-loaded and pops back into place, so it will be there to push
on the hammer next time. But if you do something to interrupt this,
the "L" will always be in the position where it doesn't cause the
hammer to move. If you did that, then when you hit a key, all it
would do is lift the damper but not throw the hammer.

In other words, if you jam, say, a thick piece of felt *behind*
the "L", so that the "L" is always tipped forward (contrary to its
spring-loaded nature), then you can play all the keys you want without
hammers striking the strings, and that would give you the ability
to change which strings resonate at will. (Well, to the extent
that you could reach the big wide open chords that you probably
would want to reach...)

Hmm, now I want a piano with two manuals on it: one to control
the dampers only, and one that controls both dampers and hammers
in the traditional way. Then I can hold down my reverb-chords
with one hand and play notes under them in the left. It could
be a whole new style of playing, but it would take a lot of
creativity (not to mention knowledge of the relationships between
overtones of all different intervals) to do really exploit it...

- Logan