Good resources for newbie...

[Phillip]

Hi,

I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.

What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?

Thanks,
Phillip

[Robert Morein]

"Phillip" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
> organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
> cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
> cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
> day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
> almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
> online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
> what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
> about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
> important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
> size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
> pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.
>
> What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Phillip

If you go with wall or ceiling mounted speakers, you are immediately out of
the realm of optimal, let alone high end audio. You can do a "decent" job,
at the level of what is commonly called "sound reinforcement", but you can't
get to the level that members of this group are interested in.

You have a practical problem, meaning that constraints, rather than options,
dominate the solution. The people who are most in tune with this kind of
problem can be found on rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech.

The first problem that comes to mind is that a good listening room is far
less reverberant than the typical cafe setting. It appears that most
restaraunts want a room to be filled with the sounds of animated
conversation. They want a high noise level. Only the most exclusive and
intimate restaraunts seem to prefer a nonreverberant environment. If this is
your choice, obtaining a nonreverberant environment is likely to be the
single most expensive item of your system. Cheap corrugated foam won't fit
it. Architecturally compatible solutions exist, but are likely to blow your
budget by more than a factor of 10.

If, by chance, you were fortunate enough to go with floorstanding, full
range speakers, there would be the problem of inverse square falloff,
meaning that tables near the speakers would be blasted, while those further
away would hear little. This is one of the reaons that multiple mediocre
in-wall speakers are commonly part of the solution.

Flat panel speakers provide a possibly superior alternative. If the shape is
high but narrow, it provides some relief from the inverse square falloff.
One company to take a look at is NXT:
http://www.nxtsound.com/industries/ind_caseStudies.php?f_id=24&MODE=TECH

[Rich.Andrews]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in :

>
> "Phillip" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
>> organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
>> cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
>> cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
>> day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
>> almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
>> online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
>> what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
>> about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
>> important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
>> size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
>> pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.
>>
>> What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Phillip
>
> If you go with wall or ceiling mounted speakers, you are immediately out of
> the realm of optimal, let alone high end audio. You can do a "decent" job,
> at the level of what is commonly called "sound reinforcement", but you can't
> get to the level that members of this group are interested in.
>
> You have a practical problem, meaning that constraints, rather than options,
> dominate the solution. The people who are most in tune with this kind of
> problem can be found on rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech.
>
> The first problem that comes to mind is that a good listening room is far
> less reverberant than the typical cafe setting. It appears that most
> restaraunts want a room to be filled with the sounds of animated
> conversation. They want a high noise level. Only the most exclusive and
> intimate restaraunts seem to prefer a nonreverberant environment. If this is
> your choice, obtaining a nonreverberant environment is likely to be the
> single most expensive item of your system. Cheap corrugated foam won't fit
> it. Architecturally compatible solutions exist, but are likely to blow your
> budget by more than a factor of 10.
>
> If, by chance, you were fortunate enough to go with floorstanding, full
> range speakers, there would be the problem of inverse square falloff,
> meaning that tables near the speakers would be blasted, while those further
> away would hear little. This is one of the reaons that multiple mediocre
> in-wall speakers are commonly part of the solution.
>
> Flat panel speakers provide a possibly superior alternative. If the shape is
> high but narrow, it provides some relief from the inverse square falloff.
> One company to take a look at is NXT:
> http://www.nxtsound.com/industries/ind_caseStudies.php?f_id=24&MODE=TECH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Actually wall mounted speakers can do an excellent job at music reproduction.
A vertical array has many advantages over a point source.
Cost is not one of them. (:>)


r



--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

[Phillip]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message >...
> "Phillip" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
> > organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
> > cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
> > cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
> > day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
> > almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
> > online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
> > what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
> > about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
> > important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
> > size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
> > pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.
> >
> > What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Phillip
>
> If you go with wall or ceiling mounted speakers, you are immediately out of
> the realm of optimal, let alone high end audio. You can do a "decent" job,
> at the level of what is commonly called "sound reinforcement", but you can't
> get to the level that members of this group are interested in.
>
> You have a practical problem, meaning that constraints, rather than options,
> dominate the solution. The people who are most in tune with this kind of
> problem can be found on rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech.

Thanks for the pointer.
>
> The first problem that comes to mind is that a good listening room is far
> less reverberant than the typical cafe setting. It appears that most
> restaraunts want a room to be filled with the sounds of animated
> conversation. They want a high noise level. Only the most exclusive and
> intimate restaraunts seem to prefer a nonreverberant environment. If this is
> your choice, obtaining a nonreverberant environment is likely to be the
> single most expensive item of your system. Cheap corrugated foam won't fit
> it. Architecturally compatible solutions exist, but are likely to blow your
> budget by more than a factor of 10.

The problem with this is that this building is a historical building,
which means that there are certain guidelines about what can and
cannot be done to alter it (in the interest of preserving it's
historical value). I don't know how much we could tear apart the room
to change its acoustics. In addition, since the organization is
non-profit, they probably don't have the kind of money necessary to
make the environment a good listening one.
>
> If, by chance, you were fortunate enough to go with floorstanding, full
> range speakers, there would be the problem of inverse square falloff,
> meaning that tables near the speakers would be blasted, while those further
> away would hear little. This is one of the reaons that multiple mediocre
> in-wall speakers are commonly part of the solution.

The problem with floor-standing speakers is that this non-profit
organization (they're a senior centor) want them to be secure, since
from what I understand, they have a lot of seniors (and other age
levels) coming in every day from the community. If the speakers are
on the floor, wouldn't they be more vulnerable to theft than if they
were mounted higher up?

>
> Flat panel speakers provide a possibly superior alternative. If the shape is
> high but narrow, it provides some relief from the inverse square falloff.
> One company to take a look at is NXT:
> http://www.nxtsound.com/industries/ind_caseStudies.php?f_id=24&MODE=TECH

A couple of other things I forgot in my first post: this room is
fairly small (it's only 460 square feet - about 21' x 21'), so we
already know that space is going to be a big limiter (these people
want a small portable stage, too). In addition, maybe the word 'cafe'
was a little misleading: these people don't want a full-scale cafe.
They are thinking more that they want small tables or counters (or
couches, since these people are seniors) for people to sit at with a
small table with a coffee machine. There will, of course, be a
talkative environment during the day, but I imagine that when groups
come for the weekly live entertainment, the environment will be a
concert one - the audience will be quiet. I don't know what the
acoustics are like in the room.

[Robert Morein]

"Phillip" > wrote in message
m...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Phillip" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
> > > organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
> > > cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
> > > cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
> > > day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
> > > almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
> > > online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
> > > what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
> > > about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
> > > important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
> > > size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
> > > pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.
> > >
> > > What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Phillip
> >
> > If you go with wall or ceiling mounted speakers, you are immediately out
of
> > the realm of optimal, let alone high end audio. You can do a "decent"
job,
> > at the level of what is commonly called "sound reinforcement", but you
can't
> > get to the level that members of this group are interested in.
> >
> > You have a practical problem, meaning that constraints, rather than
options,
> > dominate the solution. The people who are most in tune with this kind of
> > problem can be found on rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech.
>
> Thanks for the pointer.
> >
> > The first problem that comes to mind is that a good listening room is
far
> > less reverberant than the typical cafe setting. It appears that most
> > restaraunts want a room to be filled with the sounds of animated
> > conversation. They want a high noise level. Only the most exclusive and
> > intimate restaraunts seem to prefer a nonreverberant environment. If
this is
> > your choice, obtaining a nonreverberant environment is likely to be the
> > single most expensive item of your system. Cheap corrugated foam won't
fit
> > it. Architecturally compatible solutions exist, but are likely to blow
your
> > budget by more than a factor of 10.
>
> The problem with this is that this building is a historical building,
> which means that there are certain guidelines about what can and
> cannot be done to alter it (in the interest of preserving it's
> historical value). I don't know how much we could tear apart the room
> to change its acoustics. In addition, since the organization is
> non-profit, they probably don't have the kind of money necessary to
> make the environment a good listening one.
> >
> > If, by chance, you were fortunate enough to go with floorstanding, full
> > range speakers, there would be the problem of inverse square falloff,
> > meaning that tables near the speakers would be blasted, while those
further
> > away would hear little. This is one of the reaons that multiple mediocre
> > in-wall speakers are commonly part of the solution.
>
> The problem with floor-standing speakers is that this non-profit
> organization (they're a senior centor) want them to be secure, since
> from what I understand, they have a lot of seniors (and other age
> levels) coming in every day from the community. If the speakers are
> on the floor, wouldn't they be more vulnerable to theft than if they
> were mounted higher up?
>
Perhaps, although both can be secured using tamper-resistant hardware.
> >
> > Flat panel speakers provide a possibly superior alternative. If the
shape is
> > high but narrow, it provides some relief from the inverse square
falloff.
> > One company to take a look at is NXT:
> > http://www.nxtsound.com/industries/ind_caseStudies.php?f_id=24&MODE=TECH
>
> A couple of other things I forgot in my first post: this room is
> fairly small (it's only 460 square feet - about 21' x 21'), so we
> already know that space is going to be a big limiter (these people
> want a small portable stage, too). In addition, maybe the word 'cafe'
> was a little misleading: these people don't want a full-scale cafe.
> They are thinking more that they want small tables or counters (or
> couches, since these people are seniors) for people to sit at with a
> small table with a coffee machine. There will, of course, be a
> talkative environment during the day, but I imagine that when groups
> come for the weekly live entertainment, the environment will be a
> concert one - the audience will be quiet. I don't know what the
> acoustics are like in the room.

Then you don't have alot of options. I almost agree with Rich Andrews, in
that I believe that it's possible to get good sound with in-walls, it's just
not possible to get great sound. Ceiling speakers, however, are out of the
question.

As far as the amp is concerned, pick up a Hafler P7000 refurb from High
Desert Audio on eBay. It's a great amp, and it's a bargain. At 350
watts/channel into 8 ohms, it's indestructible and very clean. There are
differences between pro amps, and this is one of the better ones.

[GK Thompson]

"Phillip" > wrote in message
m...
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Phillip" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I am an engineering student working on a project for a non-profit
>> > organization in which they want to convert a couple of rooms into a
>> > cafe/social room for their clients. One of the components of this
>> > cafe/social room is a sound system, both for recorded music during the
>> > day, as well as for hosting live groups on a weekly basis. Having
>> > almost no knowledge about sound systems, and finding so much stuff
>> > online that I don't even know where to begin looking, I'm wondering
>> > what kinds of resources everyone here can suggest. I need information
>> > about systems (speakers, amplifiers, mixers, etc), but what is more
>> > important, I need to find something on sound theory - based on
>> > size/shape/composition of the room, what kind of sound will be best -
>> > pros and cons of wall-mounted speakers vs in-ceiling speakers, etc.
>> >
>> > What kinds of resources can you suggest for me?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Phillip
>>
>> If you go with wall or ceiling mounted speakers, you are immediately out
>> of
>> the realm of optimal, let alone high end audio. You can do a "decent"
>> job,
>> at the level of what is commonly called "sound reinforcement", but you
>> can't
>> get to the level that members of this group are interested in.
>>
>> You have a practical problem, meaning that constraints, rather than
>> options,
>> dominate the solution. The people who are most in tune with this kind of
>> problem can be found on rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech.
>
> Thanks for the pointer.
>>
>> The first problem that comes to mind is that a good listening room is far
>> less reverberant than the typical cafe setting. It appears that most
>> restaraunts want a room to be filled with the sounds of animated
>> conversation. They want a high noise level. Only the most exclusive and
>> intimate restaraunts seem to prefer a nonreverberant environment. If this
>> is
>> your choice, obtaining a nonreverberant environment is likely to be the
>> single most expensive item of your system. Cheap corrugated foam won't
>> fit
>> it. Architecturally compatible solutions exist, but are likely to blow
>> your
>> budget by more than a factor of 10.
>
> The problem with this is that this building is a historical building,
> which means that there are certain guidelines about what can and
> cannot be done to alter it (in the interest of preserving it's
> historical value). I don't know how much we could tear apart the room
> to change its acoustics. In addition, since the organization is
> non-profit, they probably don't have the kind of money necessary to
> make the environment a good listening one.
>>
>> If, by chance, you were fortunate enough to go with floorstanding, full
>> range speakers, there would be the problem of inverse square falloff,
>> meaning that tables near the speakers would be blasted, while those
>> further
>> away would hear little. This is one of the reaons that multiple mediocre
>> in-wall speakers are commonly part of the solution.
>
> The problem with floor-standing speakers is that this non-profit
> organization (they're a senior centor) want them to be secure, since
> from what I understand, they have a lot of seniors (and other age
> levels) coming in every day from the community. If the speakers are
> on the floor, wouldn't they be more vulnerable to theft than if they
> were mounted higher up?
>
>>
>> Flat panel speakers provide a possibly superior alternative. If the shape
>> is
>> high but narrow, it provides some relief from the inverse square falloff.
>> One company to take a look at is NXT:
>> http://www.nxtsound.com/industries/ind_caseStudies.php?f_id=24&MODE=TECH
>
> A couple of other things I forgot in my first post: this room is
> fairly small (it's only 460 square feet - about 21' x 21'), so we
> already know that space is going to be a big limiter (these people
> want a small portable stage, too). In addition, maybe the word 'cafe'
> was a little misleading: these people don't want a full-scale cafe.
> They are thinking more that they want small tables or counters (or
> couches, since these people are seniors) for people to sit at with a
> small table with a coffee machine. There will, of course, be a
> talkative environment during the day, but I imagine that when groups
> come for the weekly live entertainment, the environment will be a
> concert one - the audience will be quiet. I don't know what the
> acoustics are like in the room.