Used Yamaha vs Denon vs Luxman

[Andy Katz]

Hi everyone,

I want to put stereo in my kitchen (I'm a personal chef/caterer).
It's very, very small, the kitchen, so the receiver would be set just
outside, while the speakers (Polk Audio RTi4s, maybe?) would be in the
wall on the opposite side.

Anyhoo ... used receiver. I was looking at a Denon DRA/AVR, Luxman
RT & Onkyo. Most are about 10 - 15 years old, and most have good
quality connectors. Then I noticed a Yamaha R 900 just listed on
e-bay, mint condition, the seller claims. The first real stereo I ever
had was an R700 that was later stolen. The only major flaw, for my
purposes, in using an R700 is that it's a bit underpowered for Polk
speakers. The 900 would solve that. I really like the design and
appearance of the Yamaha, but those aren't the most important
qualities.

My question is, I believe Luxman and Denon are considered to be of
better quality than these particular Yamahas, but am I really
sacrificing that much by going with the Yamaha?

TIA

Andy Katz

Ps: I already posted this to rah-e, but I wanted to add, how important
are speaker wire posts vs spring connectors? Assuming decent quality
wire to start with, does it oxidize quickly enough to make posts vs
spring-fed a deal killer?

[Robert Morein]

"Andy Katz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I want to put stereo in my kitchen (I'm a personal chef/caterer).
> It's very, very small, the kitchen, so the receiver would be set just
> outside, while the speakers (Polk Audio RTi4s, maybe?) would be in the
> wall on the opposite side.
>
> Anyhoo ... used receiver. I was looking at a Denon DRA/AVR, Luxman
> RT & Onkyo. Most are about 10 - 15 years old, and most have good
> quality connectors. Then I noticed a Yamaha R 900 just listed on
> e-bay, mint condition, the seller claims. The first real stereo I ever
> had was an R700 that was later stolen. The only major flaw, for my
> purposes, in using an R700 is that it's a bit underpowered for Polk
> speakers. The 900 would solve that. I really like the design and
> appearance of the Yamaha, but those aren't the most important
> qualities.
>
> My question is, I believe Luxman and Denon are considered to be of
> better quality than these particular Yamahas, but am I really
> sacrificing that much by going with the Yamaha?
>
> TIA
I think that at that point in time, Denon would be the choice.
>
> Andy Katz
>
> Ps: I already posted this to rah-e, but I wanted to add, how important
> are speaker wire posts vs spring connectors? Assuming decent quality
> wire to start with, does it oxidize quickly enough to make posts vs
> spring-fed a deal killer?

Extremely important. More so than the brand of receiver.
Any receiver that uses spring connectors for main amplifier channels should
be avoided.
These connectors provide very small surface area, and consequently, high
resistance, with a high probability of deterioration of the connection by
formation of a semiconductor layer.

[Andy Katz]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:05:10 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>Are you prepared to use it without a remote? Volume control and mute are
>invaluable to me.

Interesting question. When I bought my first stereo just last summer I
seriously considered one of the old, mid-seventies Kenwoods, which
I've always admired. It was lack of a remote that changed my mind.

In this case, I probably will need to mute it fairly often, but I'll
be closer to the unit than to any remote, so having one isn't an
issue.

I'm looking at a Denon I might be able to get along with a CD player.
If not, then it's between a Luxman and the Yamaha.

>
>> Ps: I already posted this to rah-e, but I wanted to add, how important
>> are speaker wire posts vs spring connectors? Assuming decent quality
>> wire to start with, does it oxidize quickly enough to make posts vs
>> spring-fed a deal killer?
>
>Some spring thingies are too puny to accept 12-gauge wire.

Good point. Is twelve gauge necessary for the RTi4, or perhaps the BIC
DV62?

Thanks,

Andy Katz

[Andy Katz]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:04:07 -0400, "Robert Morein"
> wrote:

>Extremely important. More so than the brand of receiver.
>Any receiver that uses spring connectors for main amplifier channels should
>be avoided.
>These connectors provide very small surface area, and consequently, high
>resistance, with a high probability of deterioration of the connection by
>formation of a semiconductor layer.

Thanks for the comments. The Yamaha is a thing of beauty, but I'm more
interested in sound quality, so I will try for the Denon.

Question, is there any way to improve the surface area connection of
spring connectors (I have an Onkyo receiver and some anonymous Jensen
speakers that I like a lot, but which have spring connectors)?

Andy Katz

[Andy Katz]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:38:00 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>What cooking style do you practice?

Cooking's a third career for me, after healthcare and photography. I'm
just two years out of culinary school, so I'm trying to garner as much
all around experience as possible. In this case the client wants
vegan, low-sodium, low fat, low starch haute cuisine ... it's a
challenge, but it also means spending lots of time developing new
recipes, hence the stereo.

>> I'm looking at a Denon I might be able to get along with a CD player.
>> If not, then it's between a Luxman and the Yamaha.
>
>Luxman is a cooler name than Yamaha. YMMV.

Sure.

I thought, however, that Luxman was considered higher quality than
Yamaha, that Yamaha was more mass-market than Luxman ... not so?

>> >Some spring thingies are too puny to accept 12-gauge wire.
>>
>> Good point. Is twelve gauge necessary for the RTi4, or perhaps the BIC
>> DV62?
>
>I'd say it's a question of flexibility. Also, spring clamps are just
>cheesy. Like the difference between a $40 Henckels and a $2 stamped cheapo.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to pass on the Yamaha ... what a beautiful
unit, though ... and try to get either the Denon or the Lux.

Incidentally, Sanelli stamped knives are first class, and I'd take
them over Henckels, but that's because Henckels are shaped like
hatchets, not that they aren't good quality;-)

Andy Katz

[Robert Morein]

"Andy Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:04:07 -0400, "Robert Morein"
> > wrote:
>
> >Extremely important. More so than the brand of receiver.
> >Any receiver that uses spring connectors for main amplifier channels
should
> >be avoided.
> >These connectors provide very small surface area, and consequently, high
> >resistance, with a high probability of deterioration of the connection by
> >formation of a semiconductor layer.
>
> Thanks for the comments. The Yamaha is a thing of beauty, but I'm more
> interested in sound quality, so I will try for the Denon.
>
> Question, is there any way to improve the surface area connection of
> spring connectors (I have an Onkyo receiver and some anonymous Jensen
> speakers that I like a lot, but which have spring connectors)?
>
> Andy Katz

No, there isn't. The springs push down on the wires with thin blades.
Otherwise, the spring pressure would be insufficient.
I cannot emphasize enough that these connectors are severely compromised. In
"the old days", the unsophisticated comsumer would at best be capable of
removing the insulation from zipcord. He would have no knowledge or source
of mating plugs. Properly terminated connectors, soldered or crimped with
high pressure, attached to binding posts that can be snugly screwed down,
are today's acceptable standard.

[Andy Katz]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:15:07 -0400, "Robert Morein"
> wrote:

>No, there isn't. The springs push down on the wires with thin blades.
>Otherwise, the spring pressure would be insufficient.
>I cannot emphasize enough that these connectors are severely compromised. In
>"the old days", the unsophisticated comsumer would at best be capable of
>removing the insulation from zipcord. He would have no knowledge or source
>of mating plugs. Properly terminated connectors, soldered or crimped with
>high pressure, attached to binding posts that can be snugly screwed down,
>are today's acceptable standard.

I see ... can spring connectors be replaced, at least on speakers?


Andy Katz

[paul packer]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:04:15 GMT, Andy Katz
> wrote:

>I thought, however, that Luxman was considered higher quality than
>Yamaha, that Yamaha was more mass-market than Luxman ... not so?

Depends which Luxman. I bought an L200 ('82-84) on Ebay which has a
beautiful sweet, warm sound. Then I bought an R104 receiver ('85/86)
which is total crap sound-wise. Both have duo-beta circuitry but the
difference couldn't be more marked. Beware.

[Robert Morein]

"Andy Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:15:07 -0400, "Robert Morein"
> > wrote:
>
> >No, there isn't. The springs push down on the wires with thin blades.
> >Otherwise, the spring pressure would be insufficient.
> >I cannot emphasize enough that these connectors are severely compromised.
In
> >"the old days", the unsophisticated comsumer would at best be capable of
> >removing the insulation from zipcord. He would have no knowledge or
source
> >of mating plugs. Properly terminated connectors, soldered or crimped with
> >high pressure, attached to binding posts that can be snugly screwed down,
> >are today's acceptable standard.
>
> I see ... can spring connectors be replaced, at least on speakers?
>
>
> Andy Katz

More easily on speakers than amplifiers.

[Michael McKelvy]

"Andy Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:04:07 -0400, "Robert Morein"
> > wrote:
>
>>Extremely important. More so than the brand of receiver.
>>Any receiver that uses spring connectors for main amplifier channels
>>should
>>be avoided.
>>These connectors provide very small surface area, and consequently, high
>>resistance, with a high probability of deterioration of the connection by
>>formation of a semiconductor layer.
>
> Thanks for the comments. The Yamaha is a thing of beauty, but I'm more
> interested in sound quality, so I will try for the Denon.
>
> Question, is there any way to improve the surface area connection of
> spring connectors (I have an Onkyo receiver and some anonymous Jensen
> speakers that I like a lot, but which have spring connectors)?
>
> Andy Katz

Since you say the kitchen is very small, I assume the length of the wire
runs is going to be fairly short. Assuming that is the case, I wouldn't
worry that much about the connectors. 16 or 18 AWG wire should work just
fine, assuming they fit in the connectors, and I'm pretty sure they will.
The only receiver I ever owned was a HK-730 which had spring connectors and
IIRC it accepted up to 14 AWG wire.

The only possible side effect would be a slight increase in resistance which
would cause a bump in bass response. I don't know about the parts used in
the Luxman or Onkyo units, but Yamaha uses only standard parts that are
easily available should any thing need to replaced or repaired.

All of these units should be able to provide quality sound into any decent
speaker.

Relax, get the one that you like the most and enjoy.

[Sander deWaal]

(paul packer) said:

>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:04:15 GMT, Andy Katz
> wrote:

>>I thought, however, that Luxman was considered higher quality than
>>Yamaha, that Yamaha was more mass-market than Luxman ... not so?

>Depends which Luxman. I bought an L200 ('82-84) on Ebay which has a
>beautiful sweet, warm sound. Then I bought an R104 receiver ('85/86)
>which is total crap sound-wise. Both have duo-beta circuitry but the
>difference couldn't be more marked. Beware.

Utter audiophool bull****, note. You MUST be deluded.
All decent amplifiers sound the SAME, be it a '49 Williamson or a
$150 Sony.

Next you'll tell us that Mpingo disks and CD demagnetizers actually
work.
Haw haw haw!

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

[Bruce J. Richman]

Sander deWaal wrote:


(paul packer) said:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:04:15 GMT, Andy Katz
> wrote:
>
>>>I thought, however, that Luxman was considered higher quality than
>>>Yamaha, that Yamaha was more mass-market than Luxman ... not so?
>
>>Depends which Luxman. I bought an L200 ('82-84) on Ebay which has a
>>beautiful sweet, warm sound. Then I bought an R104 receiver ('85/86)
>>which is total crap sound-wise. Both have duo-beta circuitry but the
>>difference couldn't be more marked. Beware.
>
>Utter audiophool bull****, note. You MUST be deluded.
>All decent amplifiers sound the SAME, be it a '49 Williamson or a
>$150 Sony.
>
>Next you'll tell us that Mpingo disks and CD demagnetizers actually
>work.
>Haw haw haw!
>
>--
>Sander deWaal
>"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Prove it.



Bruce J. Richman

[Andy Katz]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:33:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
> wrote:

>Since you say the kitchen is very small, I assume the length of the wire
>runs is going to be fairly short. Assuming that is the case, I wouldn't
>worry that much about the connectors. 16 or 18 AWG wire should work just
>fine, assuming they fit in the connectors, and I'm pretty sure they will.
>The only receiver I ever owned was a HK-730 which had spring connectors and
>IIRC it accepted up to 14 AWG wire.

The kitchen is quite small, but the speakers will have to be at the
opposite ends from the receiver, say 18 - 20 ft. I'm pretty sure I can
use 14 at least.

>The only possible side effect would be a slight increase in resistance which
>would cause a bump in bass response. I don't know about the parts used in
>the Luxman or Onkyo units, but Yamaha uses only standard parts that are
>easily available should any thing need to replaced or repaired.
>
>All of these units should be able to provide quality sound into any decent
>speaker.
>
>Relax, get the one that you like the most and enjoy.

Thanks for the advice. I'll think it over. I'm probably not being
rational about the Yamaha--now that we're talking, do "loudness" and
"spatial expander" do anything? (Is the Yamaha loudness knob the same
as a loudness button that balances out sounds at low volume?).

Andy Katz

[Andy Katz]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:12:14 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>That would be a good diet for anybody. If you keep an eye toward
>streamlining your recipes, you may be able to derive a cookbook from the
>experience.

I'm hoping I get something more than sore feet and low back pain from
this;-)

>I don't know the hatchet-shaped ones, sorry. Never heard of Sanelli....

Henckels doesn't make any hatchets, it's just that after using
Japanese made blades, which are very thin, even at the spine, the
Henckels spine seems immense.

>wait, here it is. Nice industrial styling. The prices I found are moderate,
>though, not cheap. A 7" Santoku for $31. Are they really decent knives?
>I've never seen one anywhere. I have a Calphalon chef's knife that's very
>good, not expensive, similar in design to a Sabatier.

Calphalon a great, underrated bargain in cookware. Don't know about
their knives, but I'm not surprised to hear that they're a good buy.

I don't use Sabatier because, honestly, they're ugly....;-)

Andy Katz

[Michael McKelvy]

"Andy Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:33:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
> > wrote:
>
>>Since you say the kitchen is very small, I assume the length of the wire
>>runs is going to be fairly short. Assuming that is the case, I wouldn't
>>worry that much about the connectors. 16 or 18 AWG wire should work just
>>fine, assuming they fit in the connectors, and I'm pretty sure they will.
>>The only receiver I ever owned was a HK-730 which had spring connectors
>>and
>>IIRC it accepted up to 14 AWG wire.
>
> The kitchen is quite small, but the speakers will have to be at the
> opposite ends from the receiver, say 18 - 20 ft. I'm pretty sure I can
> use 14 at least.
>
>>The only possible side effect would be a slight increase in resistance
>>which
>>would cause a bump in bass response. I don't know about the parts used in
>>the Luxman or Onkyo units, but Yamaha uses only standard parts that are
>>easily available should any thing need to replaced or repaired.
>>
>>All of these units should be able to provide quality sound into any decent
>>speaker.
>>
>>Relax, get the one that you like the most and enjoy.
>
> Thanks for the advice. I'll think it over. I'm probably not being
> rational about the Yamaha--now that we're talking, do "loudness" and
> "spatial expander" do anything? (Is the Yamaha loudness knob the same
> as a loudness button that balances out sounds at low volume?).
>
Typical Loudness controls compensate for the Fletcher Munson effect and
boost the bass response at lower volumes. They apply decreasing amounts of
compensation as volume level increases.

Spatial expanders are similar to Carver's Sonic Holography device and create
an illusion of placement and soundstaging that sometimes is quite convincing
and other times ridiculous. IME it is an effect that requires the listener
to be in the sweet spot and not move, since any movement of your ear
position changes the effect. I doubt you'd have much use for it in a
kitchen.

[Sander deWaal]

(Bruce J. Richman) said:

>>>>I thought, however, that Luxman was considered higher quality than
>>>>Yamaha, that Yamaha was more mass-market than Luxman ... not so?

>>>Depends which Luxman. I bought an L200 ('82-84) on Ebay which has a
>>>beautiful sweet, warm sound. Then I bought an R104 receiver ('85/86)
>>>which is total crap sound-wise. Both have duo-beta circuitry but the
>>>difference couldn't be more marked. Beware.

>>Utter audiophool bull****, note. You MUST be deluded.
>>All decent amplifiers sound the SAME, be it a '49 Williamson or a
>>$150 Sony.

>>Next you'll tell us that Mpingo disks and CD demagnetizers actually
>>work.
>>Haw haw haw!

>Prove it.

At least, it's not like any decent Yamaha can be falling apart in a
proper double blind test, Clyde.

Watch that humidity!

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

[Andy Katz]

I want to thank everyone for their advice, opinions and information.
They've been quite helpful. I set myself a budget of $200.00. So I
bought a Yamaha AX 570 integrated amp; Teac PD D2500; Techics ST K55
Tuner; 2 KKKK 1 meter audio cables. Total: 206.00.

None of it's here yet, but all supposed to be in excellent condition.

I still need speakers. I have (I hope;) a pair of Axiom CT-6's on the
way, which I picked up for $70.00 two weeks ago. Not sure if these
ought to go in the kitchen. I'm also looking at some B&W 2000's, but
only if they stay reasonable.

The Yamaha has five times more power than I need in that space, so
I'll probably put it in the living room to replace the Onkyo and use
the Onkyo for the kitchen. The Teac will also go there because it
holds five CDs. I don't know about speakers. The Jensen speakers,
while bookshelf size, are too big for the kitchen, so either the
Axioms, or, if I get them, the B&W's.

One problem with matching the Onkyo with the Axioms/B&W's is that I
probably can't use more than 14 gauge wire, and the length is going to
be at least 20 feet each, but that's a minor issue all in all.

I have one question, anyone know of a good source to find hardware to
wall-mount 16" or less bookshelf speakers without fittings?

Thanks again,

Andy Katz