Re: Do removable faceplates really deter theft?

[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

A lot of grimy ass people will come by and just jack the faceplate to a
popular h/u and then steal the actual unit when they have more time. It is
useful to own a h/u w/ a removable faceplate if you take the faceplate out
whenever you get out of your car. From the window it is obvious you have a
stereo but what kind it is is hard to identify. I always take my faceplate
with me whenever I leave my car and I have never had my car broken into. And
I live in north central LA. No alarm. I leave the keys in the car and the
doors unlocked.......maybe if people are scared of your ass then they wont
**** with your ride.

EFFENDI

> wrote in message
...
> I was just curious if the thieves just steal the head unit anyway and buy
a
> faceplate at "Thieves R' Us" later on to make a complete unit.
>
>
> IOW is it a deterrent or just a gimmick?
>
> TIA
>
> psycho

[username]

It depends on the thief I guess, but the one idea that I think is just a gimmick are those "black-out" faces. I mean who the hell is that gonna fool? Aside from the Kenwood's with a code feature, they are mainly cosmetics. . .
> wrote in message ...
I was just curious if the thieves just steal the head unit anyway and buy a
faceplate at "Thieves R' Us" later on to make a complete unit.


IOW is it a deterrent or just a gimmick?

TIA

psycho

[DJ TecThreat]

Actually alot of theives do this..... if you see a open window and the
faceplate is on it... its incredibly easy to steal the faceplate which then
gives you a sort of collection... then when you go out at night (for the
rest and other stuff) you can pick up the headunits out of the cars and now
you have all you need to sell them... I wont lie... my cousin used to steal
car audio when we were younger... almost every morning our room was filled
with car audio and, by that after noon he'd have them all gone (sold).... i
can always remember what he'd say "Heres your cut for not talking"... lol,
i was only 12. but then again these were the pull-out stereo and booster
pack days.

DJ TecThreat

> wrote in message
...
> I was just curious if the thieves just steal the head unit anyway and buy
a
> faceplate at "Thieves R' Us" later on to make a complete unit.
>
>
> IOW is it a deterrent or just a gimmick?
>
> TIA
>
> psycho

[Flack]

Both of the stereos I've had stolen had removable face plates. Of course, I
left the face plates ON them, which it turns out defeats the purpose.

> wrote in message
...
> I was just curious if the thieves just steal the head unit anyway and buy
a
> faceplate at "Thieves R' Us" later on to make a complete unit.
>
>
> IOW is it a deterrent or just a gimmick?
>
> TIA
>
> psycho

[Soundfreak03]

>I live in north central LA. No alarm. I leave the keys in the car and the
>doors unlocked.......maybe if people are scared of your ass then they wont
>**** with your ride.
>
>EFFENDI

Quit lying. Where do you live again?
I guess you could be telling the truth if you parked your car IN A GARAGE with
a big dog that also sleeps in there. But dont hand us that BS that your some
tough guy that people wont mess with, come on Effendi we have seen how
meaningless your threats are, whatever happened to you leaving this group?!?!?!

And didnt I "wake the monster" a couple of months ago? I am still here I
screwed with you. Your still just some 15 year old wanna be tough guy who
doesnt even have a car. We all know it.

[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

soundfreak im glad youre still around talking ****. i almost missed you. and
you know i cant leave here with your ass stil trying to run ****. you are
still answering to me and **** it your whole life you still will be. even if
i was a 15 year old kid with no car i could still **** you up nicely. i park
my car outside i just watch it all the time and people in my hood know who i
roll with so they know better than to **** around like you do
suckadickfreak. read what some of the other posters said like "Dj
Tecthreat", "username" and say something useful instead of trying to ****
with me.

EFFENDI

"Soundfreak03" > wrote in message
...
> >I live in north central LA. No alarm. I leave the keys in the car and the
> >doors unlocked.......maybe if people are scared of your ass then they
wont
> >**** with your ride.
> >
> >EFFENDI
>
> Quit lying. Where do you live again?
> I guess you could be telling the truth if you parked your car IN A GARAGE
with
> a big dog that also sleeps in there. But dont hand us that BS that your
some
> tough guy that people wont mess with, come on Effendi we have seen how
> meaningless your threats are, whatever happened to you leaving this
group?!?!?!
>
> And didnt I "wake the monster" a couple of months ago? I am still here I
> screwed with you. Your still just some 15 year old wanna be tough guy who
> doesnt even have a car. We all know it.
>

[Soundfreak03]

>soundfreak im glad youre still around talking ****. i almost missed you. and
>you know i cant leave here with your ass stil trying to run ****. you are
>still answering to me and **** it your whole life you still will be. even if
>i was a 15 year old kid with no car i could still **** you up nicely. i park
>my car outside i just watch it all the time and people in my hood know who i
>roll with so they know better than to **** around like you do
>suckadickfreak. read what some of the other posters said like "Dj
>Tecthreat", "username" and say something useful instead of trying to ****
>with me.
>

Hehe. You are just a 15 year old punk.
You even think you could kick my ass without ever seeing me?!?! Come on, this
is the usenet threatening violence is stupid, but then again so are you You
are the one that said you were leaving and you didnt! Just like you said to me
dont **** with you and I DID!!! You just have this fantasy that your some tough
gangster who doesnt get ****ed with. But I did and you didnt do anything about
it!
But hey you obviously have no real knowledge of car audio, and you have to have
a "How to Speak Dumbass" dictionary just to understand what the hell it is your
trying to say.
BTW: I am not answering to you. I am having fun at your expense. You really do
crack me up with all this gangsta talk. It is just fun to watch how angry you
get and how easily I can push you around. So just keep it coming so I can enjoy
the laugh after getting off of work.

To the OP: Yes they can deter thefts IF you take them off and IF you do NOT
leave them in the vehicle. People like Effendi might actually figure out that
people put them in the glovebox. Well maybe not him but a smart dog might :)

[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

To be, and have been, completely honest with you, I get a kick out of YOU
riding MY dick. So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch. I am
19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway. So trust
that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement. Be honest with
yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch cuz
im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it. I can still kick you around
all day with my 13 timbs in your ass. You are answering to me everytime you
respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you ackowledge
that Im still here and never going. **** with me all you like, just use your
brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.

EFFENDI


"Soundfreak03" > wrote in message
...
> >soundfreak im glad youre still around talking ****. i almost missed you.
and
> >you know i cant leave here with your ass stil trying to run ****. you are
> >still answering to me and **** it your whole life you still will be. even
if
> >i was a 15 year old kid with no car i could still **** you up nicely. i
park
> >my car outside i just watch it all the time and people in my hood know
who i
> >roll with so they know better than to **** around like you do
> >suckadickfreak. read what some of the other posters said like "Dj
> >Tecthreat", "username" and say something useful instead of trying to ****
> >with me.
> >
>
> Hehe. You are just a 15 year old punk.
> You even think you could kick my ass without ever seeing me?!?! Come on,
this
> is the usenet threatening violence is stupid, but then again so are you
You
> are the one that said you were leaving and you didnt! Just like you said
to me
> dont **** with you and I DID!!! You just have this fantasy that your some
tough
> gangster who doesnt get ****ed with. But I did and you didnt do anything
about
> it!
> But hey you obviously have no real knowledge of car audio, and you have to
have
> a "How to Speak Dumbass" dictionary just to understand what the hell it is
your
> trying to say.
> BTW: I am not answering to you. I am having fun at your expense. You
really do
> crack me up with all this gangsta talk. It is just fun to watch how angry
you
> get and how easily I can push you around. So just keep it coming so I can
enjoy
> the laugh after getting off of work.
>
> To the OP: Yes they can deter thefts IF you take them off and IF you do
NOT
> leave them in the vehicle. People like Effendi might actually figure out
that
> people put them in the glovebox. Well maybe not him but a smart dog might
:)

[DJ TecThreat]

>I get a kick out of YOU riding MY dick.

No offense effendi but are you a homosexual? honestly. becuase this is
really something you don't say to another guy.

>I am 19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera,
as
> well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.

I think you are about to learn the hard way not to brag on Usenet.. it does
you absolutly no good becuase, (simply) NO ONE GIVES A ****.... "I drive
this, I have that" no one wants to hear it.

>You aint **** with me yet bitch cuz
> im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.

4th grade english class would be sufficient to repair your spelling and
grammar mistakes.

>I can still kick you around
> all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.

Once again, i dont think soundfreak is a homosexual.. (JMO) but this isnt a
gay bar.. so try to pick up guys somewhere else, just to be on the safe
side.

>**** with me all you like, just use your
> brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want

No Comment..


Look effendi, you are making an ass of your self becuase no one cares to
hear how "tough" you are or what "have in your driveway"..

DJ TecThreat

[Soundfreak03]

>To be, and have been, completely honest with you,

Bull****. You LIE everytime you post. EVERYONE knows it. When are you going to
admit you do not own any car, never installed a stereo and are really some
computer nerd with an active fantasy life.

>I get a kick out of YOU
>riding MY dick.

Now your a 15 year old GAY punk kid, man this just keeps getting better.



>So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
>because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch.

Trust me I am not scared. I am LAUGHING AT YOU. YOU WILL NOT DO ANYTHING. This
is the usenet quit acting like you will becuase YOU WONT.

> I am
>19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
>well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.

More Bull****. More like "I will be 19 in 4 years" and "Some people who live in
my neighborhood drive these cars" HEHE.
And where the hell do you live again? Sounds to more like you live by a nursing
home with those cars around.

> So trust
>that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement.

Is this more of your homosexual talk??

>Be honest with
>yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch cuz
>im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.

You have NEVER been honest with us.
So all the trash I have talked about you and how foolish I have made you look
and I still havent messed with you?? Come on I have been messing with you and
making you look like the dumbass you are since your first post.

>I can still kick you around
>all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.

More homosexual comments.

>You are answering to me everytime you
>respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you ackowledge
>that Im still here and never going.

I know I answer and I told you why. I THINK ITS FUNNY. I am laughing at you
everytime you post. Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny?? Do you
really think that your in control? I think it is funny making idiots like you
mad. You respond to me and I laugh then I write and you respond and I laugh
some more. HEHE.

>**** with me all you like, just use your
>brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.
>

Huh? Can anyone translate this for me? I seem to have misplaced my Dumbass to
English dictionary.
Well today will be a long one at work so be sure to say some more funny stuff
Effendi I will need a good laugh.

[DJ TecThreat]

>Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny??

Words cannot express..

DJ TecThreat

[Eddie Runner]

I was laughin!!

DJ TecThreat wrote:

> >Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny??
>
> Words cannot express..
>
> DJ TecThreat

[Brandon Buckner]

These seem to be appropriate...

http://tinyurl.com/npjm

http://tinyurl.com/npjj

Brandonb



Soundfreak03 wrote:

>>To be, and have been, completely honest with you,
>
>
> Bull****. You LIE everytime you post. EVERYONE knows it. When are you going to
> admit you do not own any car, never installed a stereo and are really some
> computer nerd with an active fantasy life.
>
>
>>I get a kick out of YOU
>>riding MY dick.
>
>
> Now your a 15 year old GAY punk kid, man this just keeps getting better.
>
>
>
>
>>So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
>>because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch.
>
>
> Trust me I am not scared. I am LAUGHING AT YOU. YOU WILL NOT DO ANYTHING. This
> is the usenet quit acting like you will becuase YOU WONT.
>
>
>>I am
>>19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
>>well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.
>
>
> More Bull****. More like "I will be 19 in 4 years" and "Some people who live in
> my neighborhood drive these cars" HEHE.
> And where the hell do you live again? Sounds to more like you live by a nursing
> home with those cars around.
>
>
>>So trust
>>that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement.
>
>
> Is this more of your homosexual talk??
>
>
>>Be honest with
>>yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch cuz
>>im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.
>
>
> You have NEVER been honest with us.
> So all the trash I have talked about you and how foolish I have made you look
> and I still havent messed with you?? Come on I have been messing with you and
> making you look like the dumbass you are since your first post.
>
>
>>I can still kick you around
>>all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.
>
>
> More homosexual comments.
>
>
>>You are answering to me everytime you
>>respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you ackowledge
>>that Im still here and never going.
>
>
> I know I answer and I told you why. I THINK ITS FUNNY. I am laughing at you
> everytime you post. Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny?? Do you
> really think that your in control? I think it is funny making idiots like you
> mad. You respond to me and I laugh then I write and you respond and I laugh
> some more. HEHE.
>
>
>>**** with me all you like, just use your
>>brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.
>>
>
>
> Huh? Can anyone translate this for me? I seem to have misplaced my Dumbass to
> English dictionary.
> Well today will be a long one at work so be sure to say some more funny stuff
> Effendi I will need a good laugh.

[DJ TecThreat]

lmao
"Brandon Buckner" > wrote in message
...
> These seem to be appropriate...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/npjm
>
> http://tinyurl.com/npjj
>
> Brandonb
>
>
>
> Soundfreak03 wrote:
>
> >>To be, and have been, completely honest with you,
> >
> >
> > Bull****. You LIE everytime you post. EVERYONE knows it. When are you
going to
> > admit you do not own any car, never installed a stereo and are really
some
> > computer nerd with an active fantasy life.
> >
> >
> >>I get a kick out of YOU
> >>riding MY dick.
> >
> >
> > Now your a 15 year old GAY punk kid, man this just keeps getting better.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
> >>because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch.
> >
> >
> > Trust me I am not scared. I am LAUGHING AT YOU. YOU WILL NOT DO
ANYTHING. This
> > is the usenet quit acting like you will becuase YOU WONT.
> >
> >
> >>I am
> >>19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
> >>well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.
> >
> >
> > More Bull****. More like "I will be 19 in 4 years" and "Some people who
live in
> > my neighborhood drive these cars" HEHE.
> > And where the hell do you live again? Sounds to more like you live by a
nursing
> > home with those cars around.
> >
> >
> >>So trust
> >>that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement.
> >
> >
> > Is this more of your homosexual talk??
> >
> >
> >>Be honest with
> >>yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch
cuz
> >>im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.
> >
> >
> > You have NEVER been honest with us.
> > So all the trash I have talked about you and how foolish I have made you
look
> > and I still havent messed with you?? Come on I have been messing with
you and
> > making you look like the dumbass you are since your first post.
> >
> >
> >>I can still kick you around
> >>all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.
> >
> >
> > More homosexual comments.
> >
> >
> >>You are answering to me everytime you
> >>respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you
ackowledge
> >>that Im still here and never going.
> >
> >
> > I know I answer and I told you why. I THINK ITS FUNNY. I am laughing at
you
> > everytime you post. Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny??
Do you
> > really think that your in control? I think it is funny making idiots
like you
> > mad. You respond to me and I laugh then I write and you respond and I
laugh
> > some more. HEHE.
> >
> >
> >>**** with me all you like, just use your
> >>brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Huh? Can anyone translate this for me? I seem to have misplaced my
Dumbass to
> > English dictionary.
> > Well today will be a long one at work so be sure to say some more funny
stuff
> > Effendi I will need a good laugh.
>

[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

"Soundfreak03" > wrote in message
...
> >To be, and have been, completely honest with you,
>
> Bull****. You LIE everytime you post. EVERYONE knows it. When are you
going to
> admit you do not own any car, never installed a stereo and are really some
> computer nerd with an active fantasy life.
>
> >I get a kick out of YOU
> >riding MY dick.
>
> Now your a 15 year old GAY punk kid, man this just keeps getting better.
>
>
>
> >So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
> >because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch.
>
> Trust me I am not scared. I am LAUGHING AT YOU. YOU WILL NOT DO ANYTHING.
This
> is the usenet quit acting like you will becuase YOU WONT.
>
> > I am
> >19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
> >well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.
>
> More Bull****. More like "I will be 19 in 4 years" and "Some people who
live in
> my neighborhood drive these cars" HEHE.
> And where the hell do you live again? Sounds to more like you live by a
nursing
> home with those cars around.
>
> > So trust
> >that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement.
>
> Is this more of your homosexual talk??
>
> >Be honest with
> >yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch
cuz
> >im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.
>
> You have NEVER been honest with us.
> So all the trash I have talked about you and how foolish I have made you
look
> and I still havent messed with you?? Come on I have been messing with you
and
> making you look like the dumbass you are since your first post.
>
> >I can still kick you around
> >all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.
>
> More homosexual comments.
>
> >You are answering to me everytime you
> >respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you
ackowledge
> >that Im still here and never going.
>
> I know I answer and I told you why. I THINK ITS FUNNY. I am laughing at
you
> everytime you post. Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny??
Do you
> really think that your in control? I think it is funny making idiots like
you
> mad. You respond to me and I laugh then I write and you respond and I
laugh
> some more. HEHE.
>
> >**** with me all you like, just use your
> >brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.
> >
>
> Huh? Can anyone translate this for me? I seem to have misplaced my Dumbass
to
> English dictionary.
> Well today will be a long one at work so be sure to say some more funny
stuff

> Effendi I will need a good laugh.

no problem fagget, just trying to keep everyone here on point..no one else
is running this **** but me so might as well have some fun wit it.
this **** with you is all a game but i really am 19 and own those cars im
not braggin, im just bein honest. if thats too much for you then ****, just
another hater to wipe off my grill. i really dont take this **** serious and
if we both laughin its all good.

EFFENDI

[DJ TecThreat]

you know what, now that i think about only one person comes to mind when i
read effendi's posts..

Jeffery Julian DeMarco!

Do you guys remember this curse? is he still around?

LMAO

DJ TecThreat

"Brandon Buckner" > wrote in message
...
> These seem to be appropriate...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/npjm
>
> http://tinyurl.com/npjj
>
> Brandonb
>
>
>
> Soundfreak03 wrote:
>
> >>To be, and have been, completely honest with you,
> >
> >
> > Bull****. You LIE everytime you post. EVERYONE knows it. When are you
going to
> > admit you do not own any car, never installed a stereo and are really
some
> > computer nerd with an active fantasy life.
> >
> >
> >>I get a kick out of YOU
> >>riding MY dick.
> >
> >
> > Now your a 15 year old GAY punk kid, man this just keeps getting better.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>So keep up the good work.. I dont have to threaten you
> >>because your already too scared. Just stop acting like a little bitch.
> >
> >
> > Trust me I am not scared. I am LAUGHING AT YOU. YOU WILL NOT DO
ANYTHING. This
> > is the usenet quit acting like you will becuase YOU WONT.
> >
> >
> >>I am
> >>19 and have a 1993 Caprice, a 1997 suburban and a 1991 Buick Riviera, as
> >>well as a 1992 Plymouth Acclaim and 1992 Civic in the driveway.
> >
> >
> > More Bull****. More like "I will be 19 in 4 years" and "Some people who
live in
> > my neighborhood drive these cars" HEHE.
> > And where the hell do you live again? Sounds to more like you live by a
nursing
> > home with those cars around.
> >
> >
> >>So trust
> >>that I can and will roll out your ass on the pavement.
> >
> >
> > Is this more of your homosexual talk??
> >
> >
> >>Be honest with
> >>yourself like im being honest with you. You aint **** with me yet bitch
cuz
> >>im still here and aint nothin YOU done about it.
> >
> >
> > You have NEVER been honest with us.
> > So all the trash I have talked about you and how foolish I have made you
look
> > and I still havent messed with you?? Come on I have been messing with
you and
> > making you look like the dumbass you are since your first post.
> >
> >
> >>I can still kick you around
> >>all day with my 13 timbs in your ass.
> >
> >
> > More homosexual comments.
> >
> >
> >>You are answering to me everytime you
> >>respond. Everytime you type a single letter in a reply to me you
ackowledge
> >>that Im still here and never going.
> >
> >
> > I know I answer and I told you why. I THINK ITS FUNNY. I am laughing at
you
> > everytime you post. Come on guys doesnt anybody else think he is funny??
Do you
> > really think that your in control? I think it is funny making idiots
like you
> > mad. You respond to me and I laugh then I write and you respond and I
laugh
> > some more. HEHE.
> >
> >
> >>**** with me all you like, just use your
> >>brain as a condom or else you gon catch some **** you dont want.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Huh? Can anyone translate this for me? I seem to have misplaced my
Dumbass to
> > English dictionary.
> > Well today will be a long one at work so be sure to say some more funny
stuff
> > Effendi I will need a good laugh.
>

[Soundfreak03]

>no problem fagget, just trying to keep everyone here on point..no one else
>is running this **** but me so might as well have some fun wit it.
>this **** with you is all a game but i really am 19 and own those cars im
>not braggin, im just bein honest. if thats too much for you then ****, just
>another hater to wipe off my grill. i really dont take this **** serious and
>if we both laughin its all good.
>
>EFFENDI


This wasnt very funny dude, I dont even understand half of what you said. Is
English not your first language??
And we may both be laughing but everyone is laughing AT you and how stupid you
are.
And if you do own those cars they are nothing to brag about, hell I dont think
I would admit if I owned an Acclaim.
But I have a serious question for you. If most people are laughing AT you and
think your a dumbass then how exactly are YOU in control?!?! Just curious.
I think you should refer to the second picture that Brandon posted, Now I am
not sure how he did it but He did manage to get a picture of you. Man your
worse off than I thought.
Oh and next time you post make it funny, this one was weak.

[Soundfreak03]

>These seem to be appropriate...
>
>http://tinyurl.com/npjm
>
>http://tinyurl.com/npjj
>
>Brandonb

Where did you get that picture of Effendi?? Quite clever little things but this
is by no means an argument, Effendis stupidity just makes me laugh and the
group has been a little dry lately. I am just trying to liven things up a bit
:)

[Soundfreak03]

>you know what, now that i think about only one person comes to mind when i
>read effendi's posts..
>
>Jeffery Julian DeMarco!
>
>Do you guys remember this curse? is he still around?

I think he is. I think he changed his name to EFFENDI, and somehow in the
process became even more of a dumbass, how I am not sure. Trolls and idiots (i
think effendi is both) will often change thier names. Hmmm one disappears and
then this one appears...... Makes you wonder.