Best 8" subs?

[Sam Carleton]

Since installing only the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5" (don't
have the tweeter nor the 4" in yet) in to the current Monsoon system
in my 2002 New Beetle I am starting to consider only putting subs in
my dash...

Originally I had been thinking of installing one or two Boston
Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF in the spare tire well and two Boston
Acoustics ProSeries 8.5LF in the dash. The more I enjoy the system
in its current infant state; the more I like feeling the bass right
there up front. My objective is not to build a system for folks
outside my car to enjoy (or is seems more often loathe), rather a
system that will deliverer a health dose of base at me when the
windows are down doing 65 on the interstate. The more thought that
goes into this subject, the more it seems that putting any subs
behind the driver would ruin the desired effect.

Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1 or
300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect without
resorting to subs in the back?
Considering my objective, what would I really lose by only
installing 8 inch subs in the dash? I do expect to have to create a
ported enclosure for each sub as to achieve the desired effect.
Where would one have the ports come out? On top of the dash or
underneath the dash?

Sam

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[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

Sam,
I dont recommend installing subwoofers in your dash. i think you have an
issue of tuning not a need for subs (in front) People wil argue against this
but I feel that bass is really nondirectional. I am speaking about subbass
frequencies (60Hz and below) You can hear these bass frequencies in all
directions. (Think about when; you hear a guy with a loud system wit deep
bass - and you dont know where it is coming from) If it is sub bass you are
after it will not matter much if they are in front or behind you. If you are
looking for midbass putting 8s in the dash will help but it wont be an easy
install. Porting them in the dash would be extremely difficult especially in
a small space as ported enclosures require larger enclosure
dimensions/volume. If you are looking to have a better front stage, once you
have the tweeters and 4" installed I think you will notice bass frequencies
much better as most music has harmonics of bass octaves at higher
frequencies (lower midbass or midbass). This is kind of hard to explain but
a lot of music that has bass is usually composed of a group of waves at low
and high frequencies. When you are missing the high or low waves you are not
hearing 'all' the music. Which is why installation and tuning is so
important (your brain will recognize bass at actually lower midbass
frequencies which can be reproduced in smaller speakers - namely the 4" and
tweeters you have yet to install) I had a similar problem with bass "up
front" and once upgrading I did not need to have any sort of subwoofer up
front after a sub (10" in a small sealed enclosure in the rear) and
component speakers (up front) were tuned and installed properly. Hope that
this clears thing up. Remember that proper installation of your system
determines its characteristics. If you have your woofer of a component
system facing the floor you will not have as good a listening experience as
having them aimed towards your ears (likewise for tweeters) many speakers
have an axis (sweet spot) that (when you are in it) you will get the best
experience. any more questions just holla.

EFFENDI

"Sam Carleton" > wrote in message
...
> Since installing only the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5" (don't
> have the tweeter nor the 4" in yet) in to the current Monsoon system
> in my 2002 New Beetle I am starting to consider only putting subs in
> my dash...
>
> Originally I had been thinking of installing one or two Boston
> Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF in the spare tire well and two Boston
> Acoustics ProSeries 8.5LF in the dash. The more I enjoy the system
> in its current infant state; the more I like feeling the bass right
> there up front. My objective is not to build a system for folks
> outside my car to enjoy (or is seems more often loathe), rather a
> system that will deliverer a health dose of base at me when the
> windows are down doing 65 on the interstate. The more thought that
> goes into this subject, the more it seems that putting any subs
> behind the driver would ruin the desired effect.
>
> Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1 or
> 300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect without
> resorting to subs in the back?
> Considering my objective, what would I really lose by only
> installing 8 inch subs in the dash? I do expect to have to create a
> ported enclosure for each sub as to achieve the desired effect.
> Where would one have the ports come out? On top of the dash or
> underneath the dash?
>
> Sam
>
> --
> See my links engine for a collection of sites that
> might be of interest to you. Your additions will
> make this engine more powerful global resource.
> http://www.miltonstreet.com/scarleton/links/

[Sam Carleton]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 at 07:52 GMT, -E-F-F-E-N-D-I- > wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I dont recommend installing subwoofers in your dash. i think you
> have an issue of tuning not a need for subs (in front) People wil
> argue against this but I feel that bass is really nondirectional.
> I am speaking about subbass frequencies (60Hz and below) You can
> hear these bass frequencies in all directions.

Come on EFFENDI, from your previous participation in RAC, I know you
are not a dull chap:) I am fully aware that it is not possible to
*hear* where frequencies below 60 Hz are coming from. If you take a
close read of my original posting, I never spoke of *hearing*, but
*feeling* the bass. I have an extremely difficult time believing
that one cannot feel the difference of location. Given a the
compact size of a car, I can easily see where the whole audio
experience would be very different if the subs where to be placed in
front of the listener. Again, it isn't about hearing, but feeling:)

> (Think about when; you hear a guy with a loud system wit deep bass
> - and you dont know where it is coming from) If it is sub bass you
> are after it will not matter much if they are in front or behind
> you. If you are looking for midbass putting 8s in the dash will
> help but it wont be an easy install. Porting them in the dash
> would be extremely difficult especially in a small space as ported
> enclosures require larger enclosure dimensions/volume.

Yes, I don't expect it to be easy, but anything that is truly worth
while is rarely easy:) My objective is to have one of the best
sounding systems along with one of the more unique systems. I have
this huge problem with being part of the croud:)

> If you are looking to have a better front stage, once you have the
> tweeters and 4" installed I think you will notice bass frequencies
> much better as most music has harmonics of bass octaves at higher
> frequencies (lower midbass or midbass). This is kind of hard to
> explain but a lot of music that has bass is usually composed of a
> group of waves at low and high frequencies. When you are missing
> the high or low waves you are not hearing 'all' the music. Which
> is why installation and tuning is so important (your brain will
> recognize bass at actually lower midbass frequencies which can be
> reproduced in smaller speakers - namely the 4" and tweeters you
> have yet to install)

I do understand how this composite group of waves might be difficult
to expain, but once you brought it up, it makes perfect cents to
me:) It is my intent to spend a good chunk of time figuring out
where exactly the sweet spots are in the soon to be installed
tweeters and 4", but I don't that will effect how I *feel* the
base:)

Sam

> Sam Carleton wrote:
>> Since installing only the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5" (don't
>> have the tweeter nor the 4" in yet) in to the current Monsoon
>> system in my 2002 New Beetle I am starting to consider only
>> putting subs in my dash...
>>
>> Originally I had been thinking of installing one or two Boston
>> Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF in the spare tire well and two Boston
>> Acoustics ProSeries 8.5LF in the dash. The more I enjoy the
>> system in its current infant state; the more I like feeling the
>> bass right there up front. My objective is not to build a system
>> for folks outside my car to enjoy (or is seems more often
>> loathe), rather a system that will deliverer a health dose of
>> base at me when the windows are down doing 65 on the interstate.
>> The more thought that goes into this subject, the more it seems
>> that putting any subs behind the driver would ruin the desired
>> effect.
>>
>> Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1
>> or 300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect
>> without resorting to subs in the back? Considering my objective,
>> what would I really lose by only installing 8 inch subs in the
>> dash? I do expect to have to create a ported enclosure for each
>> sub as to achieve the desired effect. Where would one have the
>> ports come out? On top of the dash or underneath the dash?
>>
>> Sam

--
See my links engine for a collection of sites that
might be of interest to you. Your additions will
make this engine more powerful global resource.
http://www.miltonstreet.com/scarleton/links/

[-E-F-F-E-N-D-I-]

Wel its all you man, whatever sounds good to you. If you got 2 12"s in a
bandpass ported into the cain - trust you will 'feel' it. A lot of "feeling"
has to do with the transfer function of your vehicle. I still dont reccomend
it even to be "unique". I fyou can do it and do it well it would be dope but
i think you will find that its not as esy as throwing a box in the trunk.
And in a Beetle???? I dunno man. Hard to get respect in a car like that...

EFFENDI

"Sam Carleton" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 at 07:52 GMT, -E-F-F-E-N-D-I- >
wrote:
>
> > Sam,
> >
> > I dont recommend installing subwoofers in your dash. i think you
> > have an issue of tuning not a need for subs (in front) People wil
> > argue against this but I feel that bass is really nondirectional.
> > I am speaking about subbass frequencies (60Hz and below) You can
> > hear these bass frequencies in all directions.
>
> Come on EFFENDI, from your previous participation in RAC, I know you
> are not a dull chap:) I am fully aware that it is not possible to
> *hear* where frequencies below 60 Hz are coming from. If you take a
> close read of my original posting, I never spoke of *hearing*, but
> *feeling* the bass. I have an extremely difficult time believing
> that one cannot feel the difference of location. Given a the
> compact size of a car, I can easily see where the whole audio
> experience would be very different if the subs where to be placed in
> front of the listener. Again, it isn't about hearing, but feeling:)
>
> > (Think about when; you hear a guy with a loud system wit deep bass
> > - and you dont know where it is coming from) If it is sub bass you
> > are after it will not matter much if they are in front or behind
> > you. If you are looking for midbass putting 8s in the dash will
> > help but it wont be an easy install. Porting them in the dash
> > would be extremely difficult especially in a small space as ported
> > enclosures require larger enclosure dimensions/volume.
>
> Yes, I don't expect it to be easy, but anything that is truly worth
> while is rarely easy:) My objective is to have one of the best
> sounding systems along with one of the more unique systems. I have
> this huge problem with being part of the croud:)
>
> > If you are looking to have a better front stage, once you have the
> > tweeters and 4" installed I think you will notice bass frequencies
> > much better as most music has harmonics of bass octaves at higher
> > frequencies (lower midbass or midbass). This is kind of hard to
> > explain but a lot of music that has bass is usually composed of a
> > group of waves at low and high frequencies. When you are missing
> > the high or low waves you are not hearing 'all' the music. Which
> > is why installation and tuning is so important (your brain will
> > recognize bass at actually lower midbass frequencies which can be
> > reproduced in smaller speakers - namely the 4" and tweeters you
> > have yet to install)
>
> I do understand how this composite group of waves might be difficult
> to expain, but once you brought it up, it makes perfect cents to
> me:) It is my intent to spend a good chunk of time figuring out
> where exactly the sweet spots are in the soon to be installed
> tweeters and 4", but I don't that will effect how I *feel* the
> base:)
>
> Sam
>
> > Sam Carleton wrote:
> >> Since installing only the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5" (don't
> >> have the tweeter nor the 4" in yet) in to the current Monsoon
> >> system in my 2002 New Beetle I am starting to consider only
> >> putting subs in my dash...
> >>
> >> Originally I had been thinking of installing one or two Boston
> >> Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF in the spare tire well and two Boston
> >> Acoustics ProSeries 8.5LF in the dash. The more I enjoy the
> >> system in its current infant state; the more I like feeling the
> >> bass right there up front. My objective is not to build a system
> >> for folks outside my car to enjoy (or is seems more often
> >> loathe), rather a system that will deliverer a health dose of
> >> base at me when the windows are down doing 65 on the interstate.
> >> The more thought that goes into this subject, the more it seems
> >> that putting any subs behind the driver would ruin the desired
> >> effect.
> >>
> >> Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1
> >> or 300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect
> >> without resorting to subs in the back? Considering my objective,
> >> what would I really lose by only installing 8 inch subs in the
> >> dash? I do expect to have to create a ported enclosure for each
> >> sub as to achieve the desired effect. Where would one have the
> >> ports come out? On top of the dash or underneath the dash?
> >>
> >> Sam
>
> --
> See my links engine for a collection of sites that
> might be of interest to you. Your additions will
> make this engine more powerful global resource.
> http://www.miltonstreet.com/scarleton/links/

[Daniel Snooks]

Sam Carleton wrote
> Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1 or
> 300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect without
> resorting to subs in the back?
> Considering my objective, what would I really lose by only
> installing 8 inch subs in the dash? I do expect to have to create a
> ported enclosure for each sub as to achieve the desired effect.
> Where would one have the ports come out? On top of the dash or
> underneath the dash?
>
> Sam

Sam !
You are an animal :) Different is good, and that goes double for an audio
system. You may want to stay away from trying to build ported enclosures as
the primary sub project. By all means, give it a go in the future, but you
can get away with a MUCH smaller enclosure sealed (and infinitely easier to
construct). From the looks of it most of the manufacturers recommend between
0.3 and 0.5 cu.ft

Image Dynamic has the ID8V.2 :

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/website/products/id.html

Cerwin Vega has the HED series:

http://www.cerwin-vega.com/products/mobileaudio/index.html

Rockford Fosgate has the RFP4408 and the RFZ2408 :

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/subwoofers/

JL Audio has the 8W3v2 :

http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/8w3v2.html

Boston Acoustics has the ProSeries 8.5LF :

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ca_product.asp?ProductID=97&CategoryID=17

and so on, and so on ...

As you can see there are a number of choices available, and these are just a
few of the manufacturers whose names came to mind ... ALSO I weeded out the
selection a bit based on mounting depth and, to a small degree, sensitivity.


--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

[Brandon Buckner]

I think this is a great idea if you can manage to shoehorn them in
there. Aside from what Dan has suggested, I've heard good things about
the JL 8s and from personal experience, I love the MTX 8" 5000s. Too bad
they aren't made anymore. You might try ebay though. I picked one up at
a local dealer for $15 after the new lines came out. Money well spent.
You may also try the Diamond CM3 8D4 or 8D2 subs (dual 4 ohm or dual 2
ohm), I'm very fond of the Diamond lines as well, and have heard and
enjoy the CM3, M6 and TDX subs. The CM3s are very good at a very good
price.

Brandonb


Sam Carleton wrote:

> Since installing only the Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5" (don't
> have the tweeter nor the 4" in yet) in to the current Monsoon system
> in my 2002 New Beetle I am starting to consider only putting subs in
> my dash...
>
> Originally I had been thinking of installing one or two Boston
> Acoustics ProSeries 12.5LF in the spare tire well and two Boston
> Acoustics ProSeries 8.5LF in the dash. The more I enjoy the system
> in its current infant state; the more I like feeling the bass right
> there up front. My objective is not to build a system for folks
> outside my car to enjoy (or is seems more often loathe), rather a
> system that will deliverer a health dose of base at me when the
> windows are down doing 65 on the interstate. The more thought that
> goes into this subject, the more it seems that putting any subs
> behind the driver would ruin the desired effect.
>
> Are there any 8 inch subs out there (driven by JL Audio's 500/1 or
> 300/2) that are capable of delivering the desired effect without
> resorting to subs in the back?
> Considering my objective, what would I really lose by only
> installing 8 inch subs in the dash? I do expect to have to create a
> ported enclosure for each sub as to achieve the desired effect.
> Where would one have the ports come out? On top of the dash or
> underneath the dash?
>
> Sam
>

[Sam Carleton]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 at 00:36 GMT, Michael (LS) wrote:

> I've never been in a beetle but I'd imagine space is at a premium.

Yes, space is at a premium, but... My dash is about two
and a half feet deep! There is plenty of surface space, but once
you look under the dash, things get real tight, real fast. I only
started to get a good feel for this two days ago when I started
poking around under the dash:)

> What about just doing 1 8" up front (sealed would be easiest, but
> ported if you must) and then a 12" in the back for sub bass?

Well, I would prefer to install one 10", but in the center of the
bug is the heater/air conditionor duct. I am thinkg two as to keep
the install looking symmetrical. Like I said, I have the surface
space to do it.

> I've found that a lot of systems lack good midbass and I've never
> liked my subs (when mounted in the back/trunk) to play anything
> higher than 60-70Hz. So maybe all you'll need is 1 8" to help the
> 6-1/2"s and then use a true sub in the back crossed over low
> enough as to be totally non-directional.

This is a more refined discription of what I had in mind originally.
Like I had said, I was thinking of two 8" in the dash and one or two
12" in the back.

> Whatever your leaning towards, I'd HIGHLY recommend waiting until
> you get the mids and tweets installed, live with them for a week
> or so, and then decide. I think you'll find that the only thing
> you're really missing is sub bass and that'd best be handled by a
> driver larger than 8".

Well, events have happened that is going to slow down the general
upgrade of my system. Hopefully in the next week or two I will get
the 4" and tweeters installed and then I expect to be living with
them for quite a while before adding anything else.

> Just my $.02 Michael (LS)

Well, it seems to be worth noting, thank you!

Sam

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See my links engine for a collection of sites that
might be of interest to you. Your additions will
make this engine more powerful global resource.
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[Mark Zarella]

Just a warning: there are cases where the sub sounds better and/or louder
in a trunk aimed the "right" way than in the cabin with you. Do the smart
thing and try to give it a listen before cutting. It'd be terrible to
change your mind when it's too late...