Mastering help... cd pops

[Ian]

Hello all,
I am more of a live sound guy, but I am working with a friend to master a
bunch of songs that were recorded with his fostex md recorder. I captured
all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files @ 44.1 kHz. Basically all the
songs are muddy and missing dynamic range, practically all the mids are non
existant. I have a behringer stereo graphic eq as well as a aural exciter
that I believe would help. The problem is when I run the song through the eq
and/or exciter and re capture the .wav and burn to a cd the song pops. I
have changed cables, I am sure that the eq, exciter, console, and pc are not
peaking., also tried three different types of CD media. If I burn the
original .wav (not eq'ed) nothing pops. I am using a maudio delta1010 with
the most current drivers. Here is a general signal flow diagram of my setup:

PC > USB out to fostex > 1/4 stereo out to console > to graphic > aural
Exciter > console > subgrp 1+2 > delta1010 in > capture using sound fordge
5.

I have tried the eq and the exciter individually as well as reversed. I just
don't know what else to try except re-format my pc and hope for the best. I
would appreciate any suggestions or tips that anyone may have. Also let me
know if you need more info. Please remove "n0spamus" to email me directly.

Thanks in advance.

Best Regards,
Ian
www.SmartHomeUSA.com

[Troy]

Why don't you just do it all in soundforge instead of running out and back
in to the computer.There are some plug ins that you can get for free
online,but I think soundforge should have everything you need to fix it up.




Ian > wrote in message
et...
> Hello all,
> I am more of a live sound guy, but I am working with a friend to master a
> bunch of songs that were recorded with his fostex md recorder. I captured
> all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files @ 44.1 kHz. Basically all the
> songs are muddy and missing dynamic range, practically all the mids are
non
> existant. I have a behringer stereo graphic eq as well as a aural exciter
> that I believe would help. The problem is when I run the song through the
eq
> and/or exciter and re capture the .wav and burn to a cd the song pops. I
> have changed cables, I am sure that the eq, exciter, console, and pc are
not
> peaking., also tried three different types of CD media. If I burn the
> original .wav (not eq'ed) nothing pops. I am using a maudio delta1010 with
> the most current drivers. Here is a general signal flow diagram of my
setup:
>
> PC > USB out to fostex > 1/4 stereo out to console > to graphic > aural
> Exciter > console > subgrp 1+2 > delta1010 in > capture using sound fordge
> 5.
>
> I have tried the eq and the exciter individually as well as reversed. I
just
> don't know what else to try except re-format my pc and hope for the best.
I
> would appreciate any suggestions or tips that anyone may have. Also let me
> know if you need more info. Please remove "n0spamus" to email me directly.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ian
> www.SmartHomeUSA.com
>
>
>

[Peter Larsen]

Ian wrote:

> I am more of a live sound guy, but I am working with a friend
> to master a bunch of songs that were recorded with his fostex
> md recorder.

[there was no question here, saying nothing ...]

> I captured all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files @ 44.1 kHz.
MD is more likely to output 48 kHz as I recall this. Just how did you
transfer them ....?

> Basically all the songs are muddy and missing dynamic range,

Are they like that on the MD, if so ... to be polite: the MD disks are
reusable you know. MD however it usually not that bad .... but something
digital without a time sync or with a time sync problem can be very very
bad and strange sounding.

> practically all the mids are non existant. I have a behringer
> stereo graphic eq as well as a aural exciter that I believe
> would help.

Put them on your chair if it is too low and if they are sturdy enough
and leave them well out of this. If there be long enough cables in your
household then put them two feet farther away than the longest cable to
ensure that they are not used.

> The problem is when I run the song through the eq
> and/or exciter and re capture the .wav and burn
> to a cd the song pops. I have changed cables,

This is not a live concert, it does not have to be realtime.

> I am sure that the eq, exciter, console, and pc are not
> peaking., also tried three different types of CD media.
> If I burn the original .wav (not eq'ed) nothing pops.
> I am using a maudio delta1010 with the most current drivers.

I consider it highly probable that the time sync setting of your sound
card is incorrect.

Here is a general signal flow diagram of my setup:

Here is how it should be:

1) Import from MD recording.
2) Fix in software.
3) Burn to CD.

> I have tried the eq and the exciter individually
> as well as reversed.

If you have gotten longer cables since I told you to put these further
away than the length of your longest cable by at least two feet then put
them even further away.

> I just don't know what else to try except re-format
> my pc and hope for the best.

1) check sound card settings

2) don't try to do it all in a single realtime process.

> Ian


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Ian]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message

> Ian wrote:
> > I captured all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files @ 44.1 kHz.
> MD is more likely to output 48 kHz as I recall this. Just how did you
> transfer them ....?

From the foxtex I use two 1/4 inch cables to my pc. I used the pc as a
holding tank because we needed to add a few vocal tracks later. I then
resent the wav. files through usb back to the fostex when ever we needed to
work on a particular track.

> > Basically all the songs are muddy and missing dynamic range,
>
> Are they like that on the MD,

yes my friend didn't record them that well.

>if so ... to be polite: the MD disks are
> reusable you know. MD however it usually not that bad .... but something
> digital without a time sync or with a time sync problem can be very very
> bad and strange sounding.

I will look into the sync rate on the fostex When I play the song on the
fostex it does not pop at all. Only when I get it back to the pc the second
time.

> Put them on your chair if it is too low and if they are sturdy enough
> and leave them well out of this. If there be long enough cables in your
> household then put them two feet farther away than the longest cable to
> ensure that they are not used.

haha... I was thinking door stop or paper weight.

>
> This is not a live concert, it does not have to be realtime.

good point.

> I consider it highly probable that the time sync setting of your sound
> card is incorrect.

I will find out what the fostex is then look at my sound card.

> Here is how it should be:
>
> 1) Import from MD recording.
> 2) Fix in software.
> 3) Burn to CD.
>
>
> If you have gotten longer cables since I told you to put these further
> away than the length of your longest cable by at least two feet then put
> them even further away.
>

done!

> > I just don't know what else to try except re-format
> > my pc and hope for the best.
>
> 1) check sound card settings
>
> 2) don't try to do it all in a single realtime process.
>
> > Ian
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
> --
> *******************************************
> * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
> *******************************************



Thanks for the response. I will try your suggestions on sync rates and the
not live thing.


Thanks,
Ian

[Ian]

"Troy" > wrote in message
news:9gD4c.791219$X%5.203686@pd7tw2no...
> Why don't you just do it all in soundforge instead of running out and back
> in to the computer.There are some plug ins that you can get for free
> online,but I think soundforge should have everything you need to fix it
up.


I will look into that. The main reason is that we needed to add some tracks.
I never once got my pc to be stable in the multi track world of cubase or
cakewalk. I figured since it has to go back to the pc anyway why not fix it
a little as I sent it. Thanks.

Ian

[Peter Larsen]

Ian wrote:

>>> I captured all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files
>>> @ 44.1 kHz.

I wrote:

>> MD is more likely to output 48 kHz as I recall this.
>> Just how did you transfer them ....?

> From the foxtex I use two 1/4 inch cables to my pc.

Which is to say that you use an analog input. Is there no sp-dif output
on the MD player? - asuming that I understood you right, i.e. that the
fostex is the MD player.

>>> Basically all the songs are muddy and missing dynamic range,

>> Are they like that on the MD,

> yes my friend didn't record them that well.

A guy called Harvey Gerst has made the point that however much you
polish a turd it will only ever get to be a polished turd. It is not
something you have to reply to here, but you should ask yourselves the
question: why not simply re-record? - there may be a perfect reason for
not to, but it has to be considered because if possible then it may be
the only way to get a result that you will all like 10 years from now.

>> if so ... to be polite: the MD disks are reusable you know.
>> MD however it usually not that bad .... but something
>> digital without a time sync or with a time sync problem can be very very
>> bad and strange sounding.

> I will look into the sync rate on the fostex

What you should look into is whether the 1010 is set to use its own
crystal clock or to use an external reference, because IF you set it to
use an external clock and IF no external clock is available THEN it will
sound very strange and murky indeed. It should be set to use internal
clock if you use analog inputs and it should be set to use SP-DIF in
clock AND to expect the proper sampling rate if you use SP-DIF input to
it.

> When I play the song on the fostex it does not pop at all.
> Only when I get it back to the pc the second time.

I am trying to understand why you use USB out when you can choose to use
the 1010 sound card + breakout box.

>> Put them on your chair if it is too low and if they
>> are sturdy enough and leave them well out of this.
>> If there be long enough cables in your household then
>> put them two feet farther away than the longest cable to
>> ensure that they are not used.

> haha... I was thinking door stop or paper weight.

It is not that they are useless per se, but they are not the first tool
in this context.

> Thanks for the response. I will try your suggestions on
> sync rates and the not live thing.

DAW'ing is a very different way to do things, it is likely to be either
8 times faster than doing it realtime or 8 times slower, i.e. something
you let run overnight. Remember to work with 32-bit files, especially if
you really have to "do things", working with 16 bit files and "doing
things" can cause a quite grainy sound quality on the end result.

Two kinds of pops/clicks are possible: overruns where some part of the
audio didn't get captured or sent and underruns where it didn't get
there in time, and there is a short moment of silence in the file rather
than "just" a discontinuity.

USB may be slightly prone to such "issues", somewhat depending on
whether VIA chipsets, especially a couple of years old Compaq with via
inside is involved.

Recent VIA stuff should be "ok" as I have heard about things. Indexing
services, including the fastfind with some versions of MS Office,
parallel port scanner daemons, unwisely configured page/swapfiles and
System Restore running because it thinks the computer is doing "almost
nothing" and - paradoxically - disks on PCI cards - are all known as
possible causes of clicks/pops.

The search phrase "Videoguy's WINME tweaks" may lead to to advice on a
website that is mostly good, some of it is specific for video input, and
some of the things I'd do differently ... in the context it could get
bulky to write about all that.

> Ian


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Ian]

"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
>
> Which is to say that you use an analog input. Is there no sp-dif output
> on the MD player? - asuming that I understood you right, i.e. that the
> fostex is the MD player.
>
The fostex has optical sp-dif and I'm coaxial. We are trying to do this with
as little out of pocket expense as possible.

> A guy called Harvey Gerst has made the point that however much you
> polish a turd it will only ever get to be a polished turd. It is not
> something you have to reply to here, but you should ask yourselves the
> question: why not simply re-record? - there may be a perfect reason for
> not to, but it has to be considered because if possible then it may be
> the only way to get a result that you will all like 10 years from now.

I agree, it's back to the out of pocket part. I can get access to a great
local studio and do it all over, however, they don't want to pay and I don't
want to pay. The tracks themselves don't sound that bad. I am just trying to
make it a little better. We are just going for a hair over demo quality, for
now anyway.

> What you should look into is whether the 1010 is set to use its own
> crystal clock or to use an external reference,

My clock was set to internal. It's unfortunate that my 1010 is not optical.

> I am trying to understand why you use USB out when you can choose to use
> the 1010 sound card + breakout box.
>
I have XP to explain for that. I have never had any problems with recording
(until now) only playback. As drivers get updated it gets better just not
good enough. I think this was a advantage that win98 and the 1010 had.

> > Thanks for the response. I will try your suggestions on
> > sync rates and the not live thing.
>
> DAW'ing is a very different way to do things, it is likely to be either
> 8 times faster than doing it realtime or 8 times slower, i.e. something
> you let run overnight. Remember to work with 32-bit files, especially if
> you really have to "do things", working with 16 bit files and "doing
> things" can cause a quite grainy sound quality on the end result.
>
> Two kinds of pops/clicks are possible: overruns where some part of the
> audio didn't get captured or sent and underruns where it didn't get
> there in time, and there is a short moment of silence in the file rather
> than "just" a discontinuity.
>
> USB may be slightly prone to such "issues", somewhat depending on
> whether VIA chipsets, especially a couple of years old Compaq with via
> inside is involved.
>
> Recent VIA stuff should be "ok" as I have heard about things. Indexing
> services, including the fastfind with some versions of MS Office,
> parallel port scanner daemons, unwisely configured page/swapfiles and
> System Restore running because it thinks the computer is doing "almost
> nothing" and - paradoxically - disks on PCI cards - are all known as
> possible causes of clicks/pops.
>
I consider myself pretty xp knowledgeable and then again I don't think I
even know 10% with my playing around.

> The search phrase "Videoguy's WINME tweaks" may lead to to advice on a
> website that is mostly good, some of it is specific for video input, and
> some of the things I'd do differently ... in the context it could get
> bulky to write about all that.
>
> > Ian
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
> --
> *******************************************
> * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
> *******************************************

Thanks for your help, I will check out Videoguy's website for XP.

Ian

[Peter Larsen]

Ian wrote:

>> Which is to say that you use an analog input.

> The fostex has optical sp-dif and I'm coaxial.

Aha!

>> What you should look into is whether the 1010 is set to use
>> its own crystal clock or to use an external reference,

> My clock was set to internal.

That's how it should be.

> It's unfortunate that my 1010 is not optical.

In the context of this it is not a major issue to use analog inputs, I
just wondered why, thanks.

>> I am trying to understand why you use USB out when you
>> can choose to use the 1010 sound card + breakout box.

> I have XP to explain for that.

A new driver version was released a couple of months ago.

> Ian


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Roger W. Norman]

Please don't use the word "master".

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ian" > wrote in message
et...
> Hello all,
> I am more of a live sound guy, but I am working with a friend to master a
> bunch of songs that were recorded with his fostex md recorder. I captured
> all the songs on my pc as stereo .wav files @ 44.1 kHz. Basically all the
> songs are muddy and missing dynamic range, practically all the mids are
non
> existant. I have a behringer stereo graphic eq as well as a aural exciter
> that I believe would help. The problem is when I run the song through the
eq
> and/or exciter and re capture the .wav and burn to a cd the song pops. I
> have changed cables, I am sure that the eq, exciter, console, and pc are
not
> peaking., also tried three different types of CD media. If I burn the
> original .wav (not eq'ed) nothing pops. I am using a maudio delta1010 with
> the most current drivers. Here is a general signal flow diagram of my
setup:
>
> PC > USB out to fostex > 1/4 stereo out to console > to graphic > aural
> Exciter > console > subgrp 1+2 > delta1010 in > capture using sound fordge
> 5.
>
> I have tried the eq and the exciter individually as well as reversed. I
just
> don't know what else to try except re-format my pc and hope for the best.
I
> would appreciate any suggestions or tips that anyone may have. Also let me
> know if you need more info. Please remove "n0spamus" to email me directly.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ian
> www.SmartHomeUSA.com
>
>
>

[hank alrich]

Roger W. Norman wrote:

> Please don't use the word "master".

Indeed, why be a slave to buzzwords.

--
ha

[Rob Reedijk]

hank alrich > wrote:
> Roger W. Norman wrote:

>> Please don't use the word "master".

> Indeed, why be a slave to buzzwords.


Kind of zinger-happy these days, Hank. Really letting them fly aren't you...

Like to crack'em do you? Real cut-up. Billy Crystal of Audio.

What are you afraid of showing serious side? Show us some emotion. It's
okay to cry.

Weep Hank! Let it out! It's okay to cry.

Rob R.

[Peter Larsen]

hank alrich wrote:

> Roger W. Norman wrote:

>> Please don't use the word "master".

> Indeed, why be a slave to buzzwords.

Just what has California done to the recording industry now the issue of
the harddisks has been resolved by the invention of Serial ATA ....?

> ha


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Ian]

> A new driver version was released a couple of months ago.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
> --
> *******************************************
> * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
> *******************************************


Hello,
Yea I got that driver. Maybe since I upgraded drivers, oh well. I will try
again tonight. If it fails it's re format time. It's about that time anyway.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Ian

[Roger W. Norman]

I teach my children to use english like a language, even today though they
be young men. I can only hope some here who are lurkers will cherish the
idea that they, indeed, can't master if they can't track and mix. Besides,
how many times have I said "if you can't ask a question properly, then how
are you going to tell when you get the proper answer?"?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"hank alrich" > wrote in message
.. .
> Roger W. Norman wrote:
>
> > Please don't use the word "master".
>
> Indeed, why be a slave to buzzwords.
>
> --
> ha