Re: Women and cats

[Ted Davis]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> wrote:

>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
>always exceptions.

Probably has something to do with control and domination: dogs require
donination and cat's can't be dominated. Of course there really isn't
all that much truth in that rumor of yours: it's just that there are
more male dominators and control freaks than women, at least in modern
western cultures - elsewhere and elsewhen, it might be different.



T.E.D. )
SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D."
somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected.

[ryanm]

"Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
...
> Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> always exceptions.
>
Women and dogs are both high maintenance (demand attention, have to be
taken "out" regularly, etc), men and cats are both low maintenance (happier
left alone, as long as there's food available, etc). In general, of course.
; )

ryanm

[The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> wrote:

>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
>always exceptions.

What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?

[kilikini]

"Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
...
> Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> always exceptions.
>
>
> --
> Sheena
>

I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
kilikini

[kilikini]

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> > wrote:
>
> >Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> >always exceptions.
>
> What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?
>

Not to perpetuate this thread, but look at the cross-posting. What does cat
and dog ownership have to do with nursing or audio either? Your reply
prompted me to look at all the groups. I would call this person a troll.

kilikini

[Norma]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> > >dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> > >always exceptions.
> >
> > What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?
> >
>
> Not to perpetuate this thread, but look at the cross-posting. What does
cat
> and dog ownership have to do with nursing or audio either? Your reply
> prompted me to look at all the groups. I would call this person a troll.

It has to do with "Nursing" because of the therapeutic benefit of pets for
all humans. I would assume that is how it has been directed to that group.
Norma
>
> kilikini
>
>

[Cat Protector]

You are joking right? Most of the women I meet are dog lovers. I would love
to find a woman who loves cats. Also I do not think of my cats as pets. They
are family to me.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
...
> Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> always exceptions.
>
>
> --
> Sheena
>

[The Department of Defense]

"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> > wrote:
>
> >Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> >always exceptions.
>
> What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?

I got a better question.... Why do you care?

[Logan Shaw]

kilikini wrote:

> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>>dogs usually make better pets for men?

> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?

You're obviously bisexual. Next question?

- Logan

[Barry]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> > dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> > always exceptions.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sheena
> >
>
> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> kilikini
>
>
What's an Australian Shepherd? Here in Aus we call Alsatian canines "German
Shepherds" but I've never heard of a breed called Australian Shepherd.

Barry

[Scott Dorsey]

Logan Shaw > wrote:
>kilikini wrote:
>> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
>
>> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
>> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
>
>You're obviously bisexual. Next question?

What about people with birds?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[RB]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Logan Shaw > wrote:
> >kilikini wrote:
> >> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
> >
> >> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very
active
> >> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> >
> >You're obviously bisexual. Next question?
>
> What about people with birds?
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Perfect people for cats.

RB

[kilikini]

"Barry" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> > > dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> > > always exceptions.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sheena
> > >
> >
> > I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very
active
> > Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> > kilikini
> >
> >
> What's an Australian Shepherd? Here in Aus we call Alsatian canines
"German
> Shepherds" but I've never heard of a breed called Australian Shepherd.
>
> Barry
>
>

I've heard that Australians call Australian Shepherds Border Collies, but
they are two different animals. They're both herding dogs, but Aussie
Shepherds are a little bit bigger and have a little bit more mellow
temperment.

http://www.australianshepherds.org/

This site will give you more info. It's an excellent resource on Aussies.

kilikini

[Mitchell Benson]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Logan Shaw > wrote:
>
>>kilikini wrote:
>>
>>>"Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>>>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
>>>
>>>I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
>>>Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
>>
>>You're obviously bisexual. Next question?
>
>
> What about people with birds?
> --scott

OOOOHHH, God you're sick!!

;-}


_________________
Mitchell Benson
OKC Backup
www.okcbackup.com

[Ben Bradley]

In a really odd crossposting involving:
rec.pets.cats.misc,
rec.audio.pro,
soc.culture.jewish,
sci.med.nursing,
Logan Shaw > wrote:

>kilikini wrote:
>
>> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
>
>> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
>> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
>
>You're obviously bisexual.

No, it means he/she is a hermaphrodite.

>Next question?

What microphone would you use for recording this thread?

> - Logan

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

[ys]

First of all, the whole notion of having a *pet* is atrocious at best,
nauseating at worst. But then again some things are preferable to those that
would call their animal friends a *goddess*, a surrogate child, spouse or
worse.

Cats are here to teach man/woman/child how to take time out to groom, play,
nap, nosh and love. How to strategize hunting sprees, how to climb trees,
how to ambush a rival and how to mark your territory.

From a cat you will learn what it is to be serene, centered yet alert
enough, savvy enough to be ready and able to make a mad-dash for an open
door should the need arise.

They will give bonus points to the people that really care about them by
treating them like a precious creature of Hashem and not a glorified piece
of furry furniture.

No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the Creator's
wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to us
before we eat.

Having a cat is no coincidence. It just didn't *happen* by itself. But like
all occurances, situations and relationships - Hashem is the masterful
joiner of soul to soul, spirit to spirit. We are to care for them and
through us, they can and may be elevated spiritually vicariously through
placing them in our hearts. They will be making the journey with us to the
World to Come as a memory residing within our heart centers.


YS



"Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
...
> Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> always exceptions.
>
>
> --
> Sheena
>


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[ys]

All of which are Hashem's creations - RESPECTIVELY!

YS



"Ben Bradley" > wrote in message
...
> In a really odd crossposting involving:
> rec.pets.cats.misc,
> rec.audio.pro,
> soc.culture.jewish,
> sci.med.nursing,
> Logan Shaw > wrote:
>
> >kilikini wrote:
> >
> >> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
> >
> >> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very
active
> >> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> >
> >You're obviously bisexual.
>
> No, it means he/she is a hermaphrodite.
>
> >Next question?
>
> What microphone would you use for recording this thread?
>
> > - Logan
>
> -----
> http://mindspring.com/~benbradley


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[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> What about people with birds?

A duck?

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Barry wrote:

> What's an Australian Shepherd?

Well, out West in the US it's a type of cow dog.

--
ha

[hank alrich]

Cat Protector wrote:

> Also I do not think of my cats as pets. They
> are family to me.

I figure you're not Korean.

--
ha

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:18:22 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> What about people with birds?
>
>A duck?

Why a duck?
-Chico

Chris Hornbeck

"Second star to the right,
Then straight on 'til morning."

[Bob Cain]

ys wrote:

>
> Cats are here to teach man/woman/child how to take time out to groom, play,
> nap, nosh and love. How to strategize hunting sprees, how to climb trees,
> how to ambush a rival and how to mark your territory.

How to play with your food and torture it to the most
miserable possible end.

>
> From a cat you will learn what it is to be serene, centered yet alert
> enough, savvy enough to be ready and able to make a mad-dash for an open
> door should the need arise.

And to kill slowly and methodically.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Paul Stamler]

Scott Dorsey > wrote in message
...
> Logan Shaw > wrote:
> >kilikini wrote:
> >> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
> >
> >> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very
active
> >> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> >
> >You're obviously bisexual. Next question?
>
> What about people with birds?

They shouldn't have cats.

Peace,
Paul

[Bob Chandler]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message >...
> Logan Shaw > wrote:
> >kilikini wrote:
> >> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> >>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
>
> >> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very active
> >> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> >
> >You're obviously bisexual. Next question?
>
> What about people with birds?
> --scott

I used to have a pet alligator (well, actually a caiman) who ATE a
cat--Does that count?

bob

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> wrote:

>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
>dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
>always exceptions.

Ernest Hemingway had over one hundred cats, and he was butch
enough for his generation.

He famously said "One cat just leads to another." The
descendants of those cats are still living at his home.

Chris Hornbeck

"Second star to the right,
Then straight on 'til morning."

[Cat Protector]

I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay and
neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...

> No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the Creator's
> wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
> humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to us
> before we eat.
>

[ys]

No but it might get you into one of the xtian death cult clubs, counting as
extra *brownie points*.

Fool.

YS



"Bob Chandler" > wrote in message
m...
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message
>...
> > Logan Shaw > wrote:
> > >kilikini wrote:
> > >> "Sheena Weston" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >>>Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> > >>>dogs usually make better pets for men?
> >
> > >> I don't know, I have both; two domestic shorthaired cats and a very
active
> > >> Australian Shepherd. What does that say about me?
> > >
> > >You're obviously bisexual. Next question?
> >
> > What about people with birds?
> > --scott
>
> I used to have a pet alligator (well, actually a caiman) who ATE a
> cat--Does that count?
>
> bob


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[ys]

Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.

If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as a
humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully, lovingly,
with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.

It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose with
plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.

We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the Creator
in all facets if life.


YS


"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
> I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
> irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
> that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay and
> neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.
>
> --
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
>
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>
> > No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
Creator's
> > wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
> > humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to
us
> > before we eat.
> >
>
>


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[kilikini]

Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets? Is
this true? Also, in what way is spaying or neutering violent? If a human
female has a hysterectomy, is that against the Torah or violent? I'm not
flaming you or anything, I'm just curious about your views.

Another point I want to make is that not every human being *will* step up to
the plate. Take my roommate for example. He has a dog and has never taken
her to the vet for any shots, heartworm prevention or flea or tick
prevention. The man has 4 children that he never sees. He's a waste of a
human being. I'm all for working on society, but there are just too many
lazy, irresponsible people out in the world to make exceptions. So, most of
us have to take it upon ourselves to neuter or spay our pets. I neutered my
male dog because my roommate refuses to spay his and we live in a small
apartment. Something had to give.

When *everyone* follows the *rules* - we'll talk. But that will probably be
way after our current lifetime.

kilikini

"ys" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.
>
> If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as a
> humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully,
lovingly,
> with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
> Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
> violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.
>
> It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose
with
> plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.
>
> We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> in all facets if life.
>
>
> YS
>
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
> > I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
> > irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
> > that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay
and
> > neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.
> >
> > --
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> > www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
> >
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> > www.catgalaxymedia.com
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> >
> > > No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
> Creator's
> > > wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
> > > humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to
> us
> > > before we eat.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[ys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
> Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?


Please read:

MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir

Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in Mitzvot
on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

Spaying animals

The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal husbandry,
but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for all
mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the fact
that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be filled
with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
quantitative one.
However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive organs] do
not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather the
consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is not
due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal is
being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is unique,
and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring is
an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next generation.
This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the particular
mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For instance,
in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a special
sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
providence.
All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish people
who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha. It
will hopefully be published in the near future.

Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in the
workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah. You
can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.







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[kilikini]

"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?
>
>
> Please read:
>
> MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
>
> Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
> on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
>
> Spaying animals
>
(snip)

> All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
> who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
> individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
> the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
>

So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be rejected
by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
correctly?
kilikini

[cindys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...

> So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
> by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
> correctly?
> kilikini
----------
Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[ys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?
> >
> >
> > Please read:
> >
> > MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
> >
> > Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> > beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
> Mitzvot
> > on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
> >
> > Spaying animals
> >
> (snip)
>
> > All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> > spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> > focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
> people
> > who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
each
> > individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
from
> > the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
> >
>
> So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
> by God and would not make it into heaven?

If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that this was
considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In regards to
animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to soul
or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the human
and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how much
loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my personal
belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to support it
that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care, where the
love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is then
uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the realms of
heaven.

Blessings,
Yechidah



Am I understanding the belief
> correctly?
> kilikini
>
>


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[Uncle Russ]

It is with a great deal of regret, after having read many of the posts
pertaining to this topic, that I conclude each of you urgently requires
professional counselling. You guys have some serious unresolved issues. I am
happy to refer interested parties to a qualified veterinary therapist who,
incidentally, is quite proficient at bird calls and records himself with the
best vocal mic under $500.

Uncle Russ

WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY
www.finescalerr.com
WESTLAKE RECORDS
www.westlakerecords.com

[hank alrich]

Cat Protector wrote:

> I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
> irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
> that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay and
> neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.

One kitty takes care of another; that's why the local mountain lion ate
the three dozen-plus feral kitties borne of a neighbor's inability to
grok spaying.

--
ha

[West Wing Audio]

ys wrote:
>
> We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the Creator
> in all facets if life.

Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

[Norma]

"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> ys wrote:
> >
> > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> > in all facets if life.
>
> Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

How does this relate to cats exactly?

Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma

[cindys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
> >
>
> So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
> by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
> correctly?
> kilikini
-----------
I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully the first time. I thought you
were asking if *the person* who spays or neuters his pet is going to be
rejected by God. I didn't realize you were asking about *the pet.* In
Judaism, animals are most definitely not the equivalent of humans. Jewish
belief is that after death, Jews are judged according to the way we
conducted our lives, if we kept the commandments, if we sinned, etc. Animals
obviously are not obligated to keep commandments and are incapable of
sinning. I have never heard of any Jewish beliefs that animal souls go
anywhere after death at all, but if there are Jewish beliefs concerning this
(that I somehow managed to miss), I can guarantee that the animals would not
be judged by human standards and would not end up in the same place as human
souls. I hope your question was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[ys]

"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> ys wrote:
> >
> > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> > in all facets if life.
>
> Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?


A holy woman of Judah, a daughter of Zion follows these laws. BUT of course!
This is our heritage, our safekeeping, our life! In perfect harmony with
Nature! What a question!

Blessings,
Yechidah




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[cindys]

"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> ys wrote:
> >
> > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> > in all facets if life.
>
> Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
-----------
"Niddah" is not related to cleanliness. It describes a spiritual state. And
yes, O Jews follow the laws of taharas hamishpacha (family purity).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[cindys]

"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ys wrote:
> > >
> > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> Creator
> > > in all facets if life.
> >
> > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
>
>
> A holy woman of Judah, a daughter of Zion follows these laws. BUT of
course!
> This is our heritage, our safekeeping, our life! In perfect harmony with
> Nature! What a question!
>
----------
But I'm sure you would agree that the law is not related to hygiene.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[ys]

Correction - women who have their periods are NOT shunned.



YS



"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> Norma wrote:
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ys wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> > Creator
> > > > in all facets if life.
> > >
> > > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
> > > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
> >
> > How does this relate to cats exactly?
> >
> > Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma
>
>
> In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:
>
> 1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
> both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
> on the nature of both creatures.
>
> 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
> he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
> but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> author's of the aforementioned Law.
>
> 3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
> consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
> daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
> context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
> Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
> the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.
>
> 4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
> together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
> assumption is, in fact, erroneous.
>
> Good day.


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[ys]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ys wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> > Creator
> > > > in all facets if life.
> > >
> > > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
> > > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
> >
> >
> > A holy woman of Judah, a daughter of Zion follows these laws. BUT of
> course!
> > This is our heritage, our safekeeping, our life! In perfect harmony with
> > Nature! What a question!
> >
> ----------
> But I'm sure you would agree that the law is not related to hygiene.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>


Not hygiene!

We are holy, fragile with a need to go within. This is our right and duty -
to be set apart to regroup, regenerate and regain strength. As far as I am
concerned it is ~the~ key to a happy, holy relationship between a man and a
woman. What is hidden may only become revealed at its proper time. No
forcing, no hastening - no short cuts - just pure allowance for the natural
cycle of human nature to run its course.

YS




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[West Wing Audio]

Norma wrote:
>
> "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ys wrote:
> > >
> > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> Creator
> > > in all facets if life.
> >
> > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
>
> How does this relate to cats exactly?
>
> Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma


In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:

1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
on the nature of both creatures.

2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
author's of the aforementioned Law.

3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.

4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
assumption is, in fact, erroneous.

Good day.

[Mark Steven Brooks]

<<We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the Creator
in all facets if life.>>

**** the 'creator', I vote for birth control.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

[Mark Steven Brooks]

<<In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be fruitful
and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7)>>

Well, I'm sure the Torah is full of all sorts of wisdom but this particular bit
is anachronistic and we are witnessing the destructive results of over
population. You know what unlimited growth is? Cancer. I suppose if we
followed the Torah, that ALL things should be fruitful and multiply (forests,
animals, insects etc.) then everything would be fine but our reproductive
habits (fueled by religious stupidity, ignorance and infantile male egos) is
literally destroying all life on the planet and we aint far behind.

BTW-I love cats. And people too. That's why I want to see less of them.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

[Mark Steven Brooks]

<<Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily avoid
transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal overpopulation
problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.>>

Yes, that works.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

[Mark Steven Brooks]

> > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> > in all facets if life.
>
> Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?>>

<<How does this relate to cats exactly?>>

Well, we ARE talking about pussies here are we not?
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

[Norma]

"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> Norma wrote:
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ys wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> > Creator
> > > > in all facets if life.
> > >
> > > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
are
> > > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
> >
> > How does this relate to cats exactly?
> >
> > Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma
>
>
> In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:
>
> 1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
> both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
> on the nature of both creatures.
>
> 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
> he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
> but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> author's of the aforementioned Law.

Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about this.
So who is doing what? Norma

>
> 3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
> consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
> daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
> context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
> Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
> the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.
>
> 4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
> together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
> assumption is, in fact, erroneous.
>
> Good day.

[Paul Gold]

"Barry" > wrote in message news

> What's an Australian Shepherd? Here in Aus we call Alsatian canines "German
> Shepherds" but I've never heard of a breed called Australian Shepherd.


Despite the name an Australian Shepherd in an American breed. They
weigh about 45lbs and look somewhat like a BorderCollie. The most
popular coat is "merle". They are quite popular here in Brooklyn, NY.
Great frisbee dogs and very smart like a Border Collie. For more info
http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/breeds_a.cfm
I like terriers, Rat Terriers.

Paul Gold
www.vinylmastering.net
brooklynphono

[Susan Cohen]

"The Department of Defense" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:20:53 -0500, "Sheena Weston"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> > >dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> > >always exceptions.
> >
> > What has this got to do with 'anti-semitism'®?
>
> I got a better question.... Why do you care?

He thinks everything should be about him.

Susan
>
>

[kilikini]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
> rejected
> > by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
> > correctly?
> > kilikini
> ----------
> Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
> commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
> judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
> judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
> transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
> spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
> problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
> providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>

I like your answer, Cindy. Thanks.
kili

[kilikini]

"ys" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
pets?
> > >
> > >

(snip)

>
> If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that this
was
> considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In regards
to
> animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
soul
> or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
human
> and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how much
> loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my personal
> belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to support it
> that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care, where
the
> love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is then
> uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the realms of
> heaven.
>
> Blessings,
> Yechidah
>

I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
*better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them? I
don't understand.
kilikini
>

[kilikini]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> >
> > So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
> rejected
> > by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
> > correctly?
> > kilikini
> -----------
> I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully the first time. I thought you
> were asking if *the person* who spays or neuters his pet is going to be
> rejected by God. I didn't realize you were asking about *the pet.* In
> Judaism, animals are most definitely not the equivalent of humans. Jewish
> belief is that after death, Jews are judged according to the way we
> conducted our lives, if we kept the commandments, if we sinned, etc.
Animals
> obviously are not obligated to keep commandments and are incapable of
> sinning. I have never heard of any Jewish beliefs that animal souls go
> anywhere after death at all, but if there are Jewish beliefs concerning
this
> (that I somehow managed to miss), I can guarantee that the animals would
not
> be judged by human standards and would not end up in the same place as
human
> souls. I hope your question was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>

Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
*itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm just
trying to understand. Really!

kilikini

[Cat Protector]

Yeah right. Spaying and neutering is not mutilation. It is being a
responsible human and not adding to the overpopulation problem. I don't care
what religion you are there is no excuse for being irresponsible.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.
>
> If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as a
> humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully,
lovingly,
> with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
> Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
> violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.
>
> It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose
with
> plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.
>
> We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
Creator
> in all facets if life.
>
>
> YS
>
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
> > I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
> > irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a shelter
> > that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay
and
> > neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.
> >
> > --
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> > www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
> >
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> > www.catgalaxymedia.com
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> >
> > > No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
> Creator's
> > > wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is be
> > > humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted to
> us
> > > before we eat.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Cat Protector]

The torah doesn't say it. I think this person is just trying to make excuses
for their thoughtlessness.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
> Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets? Is
> this true? Also, in what way is spaying or neutering violent? If a human
> female has a hysterectomy, is that against the Torah or violent? I'm not
> flaming you or anything, I'm just curious about your views.
>
> Another point I want to make is that not every human being *will* step up
to
> the plate. Take my roommate for example. He has a dog and has never
taken
> her to the vet for any shots, heartworm prevention or flea or tick
> prevention. The man has 4 children that he never sees. He's a waste of a
> human being. I'm all for working on society, but there are just too many
> lazy, irresponsible people out in the world to make exceptions. So, most
of
> us have to take it upon ourselves to neuter or spay our pets. I neutered
my
> male dog because my roommate refuses to spay his and we live in a small
> apartment. Something had to give.
>
> When *everyone* follows the *rules* - we'll talk. But that will probably
be
> way after our current lifetime.
>
> kilikini
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations. Specifically castration.
> >
> > If every human being stepped up to the plate and took responsibility as
a
> > humane human, doing our part in caring for these animals - fully,
> lovingly,
> > with dedication - keeping them within bounds, within the framework of
> > Torah - the Blueprint for the Universe, there would be ZERO need to use
> > violence to control and manipulate nature and its laws.
> >
> > It is PRECISELY when these laws are violated that all hell breaks loose
> with
> > plagues, pestilence and catastrophe.
> >
> > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of the
> Creator
> > in all facets if life.
> >
> >
> > YS
> >
> >
> > "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> > news:vU14c.1371$wg.1088@okepread01...
> > > I agree on no declawing but no spaying or neutering? That is being
> > > irresponsible if you ask me. Try using your religious lines in a
shelter
> > > that is overflowing with animals because either someone failed to spay
> and
> > > neuter their animal or simply dumped them there.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> > > www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
> > >
> > > Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> > > www.catgalaxymedia.com
> > > "ys" > wrote in message
> > > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > > No declawing, no neutering, no spaying - all totally against the
> > Creator's
> > > > wishes. What is expected from us as the stewards of this planet is
be
> > > > humane, compassionate and caring enough to feed an animal entrusted
to
> > us
> > > > before we eat.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
> >
> >
>
>

[cindys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > >
> > > So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
> > rejected
> > > by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the
belief
> > > correctly?
> > > kilikini
> > -----------
> > I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully the first time. I thought
you
> > were asking if *the person* who spays or neuters his pet is going to be
> > rejected by God. I didn't realize you were asking about *the pet.* In
> > Judaism, animals are most definitely not the equivalent of humans.
Jewish
> > belief is that after death, Jews are judged according to the way we
> > conducted our lives, if we kept the commandments, if we sinned, etc.
> Animals
> > obviously are not obligated to keep commandments and are incapable of
> > sinning. I have never heard of any Jewish beliefs that animal souls go
> > anywhere after death at all, but if there are Jewish beliefs concerning
> this
> > (that I somehow managed to miss), I can guarantee that the animals would
> not
> > be judged by human standards and would not end up in the same place as
> human
> > souls. I hope your question was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
> faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
> *itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm just
> trying to understand. Really!
----------
Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
people.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Cat Protector]

Forget the torah. Spaying and neutering your animals is the correct action.
I would love to see you go down to a shelter and tell them what they are
doing is wrong. It is people like you that are making the rescue of our
feline friends difficult by making an excuse not to do the responsible
thing. I suppose you are also going to say the torah says we should not
punish those who simply dump their feline friends in the street to fend for
themselves? BTW, spaying/neutering is the right thing to do. You can use all
the scipts, sayings or anything from the torah that you want but that
doesn't mean they are correct. I suggest you get with the times. This is
2004 after all.


--
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www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message news:jL24c.33678
> Please read:
>
> MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
>
> Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
> on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
>
> Spaying animals
>
> The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
> order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal husbandry,
> but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
> prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
> In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
> and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
> Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for all
> mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the fact
> that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
> with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
> quantitative one.
> However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
> people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
> sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
> maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive organs]
do
> not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
> meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
> Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather the
> consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is not
> due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal is
> being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
> directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
> and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring is
> an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
> swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
> lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
> This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the particular
> mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
> in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
> Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
> value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a special
> sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
> providence.
> All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
> who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
> individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
> the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur Shulchan
> Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha.
It
> will hopefully be published in the near future.
>
> Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
> Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in the
> workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
> Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
> can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
> www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Cat Protector]

I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted my
cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation. I see at as a
necessity to prevent overpopulation. I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.
Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.

--
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www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" > wrote in message
...

> Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
> commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
> judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are not
> judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
avoid
> transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already been
> spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
overpopulation
> problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
> providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>

[Cat Protector]

I have a belief in the metaphysical despite being Jewish. I believe cats
have souls and spend much time on the astral plane. I am sure this ys person
will probably say Jews are not allowed to be metaphysical and that is a sin
to believe cats have souls. Good thing I was born Reform because many of us
don't follow the rules of Jewish law.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
> I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
> *better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them?
I
> don't understand.
> kilikini
> >
>
>
>

[Cat Protector]

Plenty of men try to do this. I know I make myself scarce during this cycle
so I do not incur the wrath of the woman.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...

> Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they are
> deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?

[Cat Protector]

And this has to do with cats how?

--
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www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Correction - women who have their periods are NOT shunned.
>
>
>
> YS
>
>
>
> "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Norma wrote:
> > >
> > > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > ys wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > We must begin to do things the Right way, following the laws of
the
> > > Creator
> > > > > in all facets if life.
> > > >
> > > > Then we must also avoid women during their menstrual cycles as they
> are
> > > > deemed "unclean." Do you follow this law too?
> > >
> > > How does this relate to cats exactly?
> > >
> > > Seems more like a trolling question to me. Norma
> >
> >
> > In more detail than is warranted for a Thursday afternoon:
> >
> > 1. The astute reader will note that the thread subject line includes
> > both women AND cats and indeed how the thread discussions have touched
> > on the nature of both creatures.
> >
> > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
> > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
> > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> >
> > 3. My post was an attempt to ascertain whether or not YS was indeed
> > consistent in his/her approach to Toraic Law and its application to
> > daily human activities, which include both women AND cats in this
> > context. As is often the case with such things, the "faithful" (be they
> > Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) are highly selective about which parts of
> > the Law they choose to abide by or hold sacred.
> >
> > 4. Finally, the astute reader would have put elements 1, 2 and 3
> > together BEFORE assuming a trolling stance on my part. Such an
> > assumption is, in fact, erroneous.
> >
> > Good day.
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Cat Protector]

Most Jews I am sure spay and neuter their animals. I bet the OP probably
feels a lot of us who do the responsible thing will also not get a ticket
into heaven. I am also willing to bet that he/she would not be quoting the
torah if their own life was at risk and they needed an operation. Yes,
that's right you may need to cut your flesh to save your own life. I suppose
you'd let yourself or someone else die in order to stick to the belief of no
cutting the flesh?

--
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www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" > wrote in message
...

> So, in other words, if you spay or neuter your pet the pet would be
rejected
> by God and would not make it into heaven? Am I understanding the belief
> correctly?
> kilikini
>
>

[ys]

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "ys" > wrote in message
> > > hlink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
> pets?
> > > >
> > > >
>
> (snip)
>
> >
> > If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that this
> was
> > considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In
regards
> to
> > animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
> soul
> > or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
> human
> > and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how much
> > loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my personal
> > belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to support
it
> > that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care, where
> the
> > love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is then
> > uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the realms
of
> > heaven.
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Yechidah
> >
>
> I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
> *better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves them?



What is purity?


YS





---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

[Paul Stamler]

cindys > wrote in message
...

> > Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in other
> > faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the animal
> > *itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm
just
> > trying to understand. Really!
> ----------
> Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
> people.

On the other hand, I read in Leviticus that in the case of the abomination
of sexual relations between a human and an animal, the human is condemned to
death, and so is the animal. I understand that this isn't God judging the
animal and condemning it, but nonetheless it always struck me as unfair to a
creature who is not capable of understanding the law.

Peace,
Paul

[Tommy B]

I think basing your life around a book,and some of it's outdated rules, that
are 5000 years old is a little strange.
Remeber when Galileo said the earth was not the center of the universe?
I'll say it again:
God's biggest joke on Man is Sex,
Man's biggest joke on God is Religion.

Tom





"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?
>
>
> Please read:
>
> MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
>
> Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
Mitzvot
> on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
>
> Spaying animals
>
> The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
> order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal husbandry,
> but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
> prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
> In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
fruitful
> and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
> Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for all
> mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the fact
> that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
filled
> with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
> quantitative one.
> However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
> people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
> sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
> maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive organs]
do
> not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
> meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
> Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather the
> consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is not
> due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal is
> being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
> directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
unique,
> and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring is
> an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
> swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
> lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
generation.
> This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the particular
> mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
instance,
> in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
> Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
> value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a special
> sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
> providence.
> All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
people
> who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in each
> individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected" from
> the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur Shulchan
> Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha.
It
> will hopefully be published in the near future.
>
> Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
> Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in the
> workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
> Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
You
> can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
> www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Tommy B]

Ivory Snow?

Tom

"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > >
> > > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "ys" > wrote in message
> > > > hlink.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
> > pets?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > >
> > > If one neutered or spayed an animal without KNOWING beforehand that
this
> > was
> > > considered a sin, then there perhaps will be special lenience. In
> regards
> > to
> > > animals being elevated spiritually in the evolution of their spirit to
> > soul
> > > or not, it has much to do with the care bestowed on the animal by the
> > human
> > > and how the commandments were adhered to at all given times and how
much
> > > loving intention was conveyed at the time (kavannah). It is my
personal
> > > belief - though I am sure some one somewhere can find a text to
support
> it
> > > that the heart connection made with the dog or cat in one's care,
where
> > the
> > > love that is given and received in the heart-center, that energy is
then
> > > uplifted - as a memory of the animal and this then may enter the
realms
> of
> > > heaven.
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > Yechidah
> > >
> >
> > I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
> > *better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves
them?
>
>
>
> What is purity?
>
>
> YS
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Tommy B]

Have you ever heard of the Kabbalah?
Tom

"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
news:Foa4c.1524$wg.184@okepread01...
> I have a belief in the metaphysical despite being Jewish. I believe cats
> have souls and spend much time on the astral plane. I am sure this ys
person
> will probably say Jews are not allowed to be metaphysical and that is a
sin
> to believe cats have souls. Good thing I was born Reform because many of
us
> don't follow the rules of Jewish law.
>
> --
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
>
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
> "kilikini" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I thought that all animals were pure by nature. How can an animal get
> > *better* in the eyes of the spirit world, because their owner loves
them?
> I
> > don't understand.
> > kilikini
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[cindys]

"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...
>
> I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted
my
> cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
> still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.

The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it problematic
for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.

>I see at as a
> necessity to prevent overpopulation.

There is a way around it, as I outlined.

1. Jews should limit themselves to animals which are already spayed or
neutered. In many cases, this means adopting an older animal rather than a
kitten, which is in and of itself a wonderful thing to do, since older
animals are harder to place in homes.

2. Not adopt animals at all. And for the record, most observant Jews tend to
not have pets at all.

>I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
> shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.

This would not change the fact that Jews are prohibited by the torah from
spaying and neutering animals.

> Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.

I am a former volunteer for an animal rescue organization. I have had a
number of *foster* cats in my home, one of whom was a pregnant cat that
someone had dumped off at a shelter. I fostered her through the remainder of
her pregnancy and the birth of her 4 kittens. They stayed with me until the
kittens were weaned. I still have the mother (she was spayed under the
auspices of the rescue agency before I took permanent possession of her). I
know firsthand about the problems of dog and cat overpopulation. The number
of animals being killed in shelters every year is a travesty. But no one
here is arguing that animals should not be spayed or neutered, only that it
is a torah transgression for Jews can't do so. So, therefore, Jews should
adopt older animals that have already been spayed or neutered or not adopt
at all.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.




>
> --
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
>
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments. The
> > commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We are
> > judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are
not
> > judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
> avoid
> > transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already
been
> > spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
> overpopulation
> > problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
> > providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
> >
> >
>
>

[cindys]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...
> cindys > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > Actually, I was serious. I'm not Jewish and am very interested in
other
> > > faiths. My question was intentional. YS made it sound as if the
animal
> > > *itself* would be punished if it were to be neutered or spayed. I'm
> just
> > > trying to understand. Really!
> > ----------
> > Oh! No, the animal would not be punished. In Judaism, God only judges
> > people.
>
> On the other hand, I read in Leviticus that in the case of the abomination
> of sexual relations between a human and an animal, the human is condemned
to
> death, and so is the animal. I understand that this isn't God judging the
> animal and condemning it, but nonetheless it always struck me as unfair to
a
> creature who is not capable of understanding the law.
----------
An animal that has killed someone is also put to death. In both cases, the
torah commandment is for humans to kill the animal. This is quite different
from the animals' being the recipient of post-death divine retribution from
God, which I believe was the other poster's question.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Cat Protector]

I think the torah is very much open to individual interpretation. Last time
I checked we're all apart of humanity. I don't believe in limits. Why should
I be bound by the rules of the torah? This is 2004. Not the days of Moses.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" > wrote in message
...

> The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
> that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
> not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
problematic
> for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.
>
> >I see at as a
> > necessity to prevent overpopulation.
>
> There is a way around it, as I outlined.
>
> 1. Jews should limit themselves to animals which are already spayed or
> neutered. In many cases, this means adopting an older animal rather than a
> kitten, which is in and of itself a wonderful thing to do, since older
> animals are harder to place in homes.
>
> 2. Not adopt animals at all. And for the record, most observant Jews tend
to
> not have pets at all.
>
> >I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
> > shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.
>
> This would not change the fact that Jews are prohibited by the torah from
> spaying and neutering animals.
>
> > Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.
>
> I am a former volunteer for an animal rescue organization. I have had a
> number of *foster* cats in my home, one of whom was a pregnant cat that
> someone had dumped off at a shelter. I fostered her through the remainder
of
> her pregnancy and the birth of her 4 kittens. They stayed with me until
the
> kittens were weaned. I still have the mother (she was spayed under the
> auspices of the rescue agency before I took permanent possession of her).
I
> know firsthand about the problems of dog and cat overpopulation. The
number
> of animals being killed in shelters every year is a travesty. But no one
> here is arguing that animals should not be spayed or neutered, only that
it
> is a torah transgression for Jews can't do so. So, therefore, Jews should
> adopt older animals that have already been spayed or neutered or not adopt
> at all.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> > www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
> >
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> > www.catgalaxymedia.com
> > "cindys" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments.
The
> > > commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We
are
> > > judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are
> not
> > > judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
> > avoid
> > > transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already
> been
> > > spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
> > overpopulation
> > > problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
> > > providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
> > > Best regards,
> > > ---Cindy S.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Cat Protector]

Yes, I have but I do not follow it.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Have you ever heard of the Kabbalah?
> Tom

[Cat Protector]

Well I don't base my life around the torah. Being Jewish is cool but I am
also a human being and thus must make my own choices in life.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I think basing your life around a book,and some of it's outdated rules,
that
> are 5000 years old is a little strange.
> Remeber when Galileo said the earth was not the center of the universe?
> I'll say it again:
> God's biggest joke on Man is Sex,
> Man's biggest joke on God is Religion.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?
> >
> >
> > Please read:
> >
> > MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
> >
> > Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> > beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
> Mitzvot
> > on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
> >
> > Spaying animals
> >
> > The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
> > order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal
husbandry,
> > but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
> > prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
> > In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
> fruitful
> > and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
> > Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for
all
> > mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the
fact
> > that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
> filled
> > with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
> > quantitative one.
> > However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
> > people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
> > sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
> > maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive
organs]
> do
> > not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
> > meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
> > Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather
the
> > consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is
not
> > due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal
is
> > being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
> > directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
> unique,
> > and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring
is
> > an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
> > swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
> > lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
> generation.
> > This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the
particular
> > mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
> instance,
> > in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
> > Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
> > value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a
special
> > sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
> > providence.
> > All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> > spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> > focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
> people
> > who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
each
> > individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
from
> > the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> > Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur
Shulchan
> > Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and
halacha.
> It
> > will hopefully be published in the near future.
> >
> > Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
> > Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in
the
> > workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
> > Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
> You
> > can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
> > www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
> >
> >
>
>

[Paul Gold]

"ys" > wrote in message .
> Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations.


Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.

[ys]

"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I think basing your life around a book


Thanks for your thoughts, though maybe not all thoughts should be made
public domain.



YS



>
>
>
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your pets?
> >
> >
> > Please read:
> >
> > MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
> >
> > Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its
> > beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
> Mitzvot
> > on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
> >
> > Spaying animals
> >
> > The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or in
> > order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal
husbandry,
> > but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
> > prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
> > In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
> fruitful
> > and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7), our
> > Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for
all
> > mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the
fact
> > that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
> filled
> > with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
> > quantitative one.
> > However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the Jewish
> > people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
> > sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
> > maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive
organs]
> do
> > not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
> > meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
> > Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather
the
> > consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is
not
> > due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal
is
> > being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to be
> > directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
> unique,
> > and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to offspring
is
> > an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world will
> > swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if he
> > lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
> generation.
> > This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the
particular
> > mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
> instance,
> > in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
> > Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
> > value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a
special
> > sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
> > providence.
> > All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially and
> > spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more instrumental,
> > focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
> people
> > who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
each
> > individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
from
> > the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> > Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur
Shulchan
> > Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and halacha
..
> It
> > will hopefully be published in the near future.
> >
> > Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
> > Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in
the
> > workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for Business
> > Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish HaTorah.
> You
> > can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
> > www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
> >
> >
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

[ys]

"Paul Gold" > wrote in message
om...
> "ys" > wrote in message .
> > Sorry. Our Torah says NO to mutilations.
>
>
> Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.


Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
covered.

Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating that
this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
since the beginning of time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.

YS


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

[Cat Protector]

YS, I have to wonder why you are pushing your views to people in an obvious
cat newsgroup? Jews are not supposed to be pushing their religion on other
people. Spaying/neutering cats is a needed and necessary thing. I am all for
it and no matter what you say will not prevent me from doing the responsible
thing. I'd definately quit this nonsense already.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message news:2wn4c.17267$%
> Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
> Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
> covered.
>
> Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating
that
> this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
> since the beginning of time.
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.
>
> YS
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Paul Stamler]

cindys > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...
> >
> > I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted
> my
> > cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
> > still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.
>
> The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
> that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
> not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
problematic
> for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.

In other words, the equvalent of a "Shabbos goy"? (For those not familiar
with the term, a "Shabbos goy" was a Gentile employed by observant Jews to
mind the store or run the factory on the sabbath, when Jews are not
permitted to work.)

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

ys > wrote in message
link.net...

> > Circumsicion seems like a notable exceptiion to the rule.
>
>
> Circumcision is a covenant of the flesh between God and Abraham and all
> Jewish males descending from him, revealing of what ~is~ which has been
> covered.
>
> Just FYI, you create more mutilation, destruction and death insinuating
that
> this blessed ocassion is *mutilation* than all the circumcisions EVER done
> since the beginning of time.
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it, merry sunshine.

Really? Who died?

Peace,
Paul

[cindys]

"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
news:d_m4c.4658$wg.1583@okepread01...
> I think the torah is very much open to individual interpretation.

You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it that way.

>Last time
> I checked we're all apart of humanity. I don't believe in limits. Why
should
> I be bound by the rules of the torah?

You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it this way.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.





This is 2004. Not the days of Moses.

[cindys]

"Paul Stamler" > wrote in message
...
>
> cindys > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> > news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...
> > >
> > > I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I
adopted
> > my
> > > cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I
am
> > > still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.
> >
> > The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
> > that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos
do
> > not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
> problematic
> > for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.
>
> In other words, the equvalent of a "Shabbos goy"? (For those not familiar
> with the term, a "Shabbos goy" was a Gentile employed by observant Jews to
> mind the store or run the factory on the sabbath, when Jews are not
> permitted to work.)
----------
Not at all. The fact is that all Jews are obligated to observe shabbos, but
no one is obligated to adopt an animal.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Tommy B]

Does the Torah say anything about anesthetics?
Religion, like software seems to need constant updates!

Tom

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> news:6la4c.1513$wg.305@okepread01...
> >
> > I do not judge others myself. BTW, I myself am Jewish and when I adopted
> my
> > cat Isis it was a requirement to have her spayed. I was all for it. I am
> > still for spaying/neutering. I do not see it as mutilation.
>
> The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact remains
> that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos do
> not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
problematic
> for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.
>
> >I see at as a
> > necessity to prevent overpopulation.
>
> There is a way around it, as I outlined.
>
> 1. Jews should limit themselves to animals which are already spayed or
> neutered. In many cases, this means adopting an older animal rather than a
> kitten, which is in and of itself a wonderful thing to do, since older
> animals are harder to place in homes.
>
> 2. Not adopt animals at all. And for the record, most observant Jews tend
to
> not have pets at all.
>
> >I think the OP needs to volunteer at a
> > shelter around kitten season when cats are dumped off at record numbers.
>
> This would not change the fact that Jews are prohibited by the torah from
> spaying and neutering animals.
>
> > Some them even have kittens. Spaying/neutering is the responsible thing.
>
> I am a former volunteer for an animal rescue organization. I have had a
> number of *foster* cats in my home, one of whom was a pregnant cat that
> someone had dumped off at a shelter. I fostered her through the remainder
of
> her pregnancy and the birth of her 4 kittens. They stayed with me until
the
> kittens were weaned. I still have the mother (she was spayed under the
> auspices of the rescue agency before I took permanent possession of her).
I
> know firsthand about the problems of dog and cat overpopulation. The
number
> of animals being killed in shelters every year is a travesty. But no one
> here is arguing that animals should not be spayed or neutered, only that
it
> is a torah transgression for Jews can't do so. So, therefore, Jews should
> adopt older animals that have already been spayed or neutered or not adopt
> at all.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> > www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
> >
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> > www.catgalaxymedia.com
> > "cindys" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > Not exactly. Without getting into detail, we have 613 commandments.
The
> > > commandment regarding not spaying/neutering is just one of them. We
are
> > > judged on the big picture, the good is weighed against the bad. We are
> not
> > > judged on just one thing. That having been said, religious Jews easily
> > avoid
> > > transgressing this commandment by adopting animals that have already
> been
> > > spayed or neutered. That way, we are not adding to the animal
> > overpopulation
> > > problem, we are not transgressing a commandment, and we are hopefully
> > > providing a nice home for an animal who needs one.
> > > Best regards,
> > > ---Cindy S.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Norma]

"ys" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > I think basing your life around a book
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts, though maybe not all thoughts should be made
> public domain.

Especially on Jewish newsgroups??? HOw on earth did this bit of
crossposting get started anyway? Norma

>
>
>
> YS
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > "kilikini" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Wait a minute, the Torah says that you can't spay or neuter your
pets?
> > >
> > >
> > > Please read:
> > >
> > > MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
> > >
> > > Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show
its
> > > beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir's Meaning in
> > Mitzvot
> > > on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
> > >
> > > Spaying animals
> > >
> > > The spaying of animals, in order to prevent undesired reproduction or
in
> > > order to make them more docile, is an ancient custom of animal
> husbandry,
> > > but it is one which is forbidden by the Torah. The Torah teaches this
> > > prohibition in two different places, each one with its message.
> > > In the blessing given to Noach and his family after the flood, "Be
> > fruitful
> > > and multiply, swarm in the earth and multiply in it" (Bere**** 9:7),
our
> > > Sages discerned an implication that spaying of animals is improper for
> all
> > > mankind (Sanhedrin 57a). The basis of this admonition is clearly the
> fact
> > > that spaying interferes with HaShem's desire that the world should be
> > filled
> > > with a multiplicity of living things. Here the consideration is a
> > > quantitative one.
> > > However, the Torah also contains a prohibition on spaying for the
Jewish
> > > people. In enumeration the animals which are blemished and unfit for
> > > sacrifices, the Torah tells us (Vayikra 22:24) "And an animal which is
> > > maimed or crushed or disconnected or severed [in his reproductive
> organs]
> > do
> > > not offer to HaShem", and then adds "and don't do this in your land",
> > > meaning that we should not create such a blemish (Shabbat 110b).
> > > Here the emphasis is not on the consequences for the world, but rather
> the
> > > consequences for this particular animal. The blemish in a sacrifice is
> not
> > > due to the fact that the animal will not reproduce, because the animal
> is
> > > being slaughtered anyway. Rather, the admonition not to spay seems to
be
> > > directed at the loss for the individual. Each individual creature is
> > unique,
> > > and its ability to transmit its own unique characteristics to
offspring
> is
> > > an essential part of its character and potential. Even if the world
will
> > > swarm with sheep just as before, this individual ram is deficient if
he
> > > lacks the potential to perpetuate his special traits in the next
> > generation.
> > > This distinction between the general mission of mankind and the
> particular
> > > mission of the Jewish people is found in other places as well. For
> > instance,
> > > in our column on Vayikra 5761 we saw the explanation of Rav Nachman of
> > > Breslav, that for all mankind ownership and possession has utilitarian
> > > value, but for the Jewish people ownership also ideally involves a
> special
> > > sensitivity to the unique role of each object in the chain of Divine
> > > providence.
> > > All of mankind is charged with perfecting the world, both materially
and
> > > spiritually. But the mission of mankind as a whole is more
instrumental,
> > > focusing on principles which create a better world. It is the Jewish
> > people
> > > who are particularly commanded to find the holiness and potential in
> each
> > > individual aspect of creation, "so that none of them may be rejected"
> from
> > > the realm of holiness. (See Shmuel II 14:14.)
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > > Rabbi Meir has completed writing a monumental companion to Kitzur
> Shulchan
> > > Aruch which beautifully presents the meanings in our mitzvot and
halacha
> .
> > It
> > > will hopefully be published in the near future.
> > >
> > > Rabbi Meir authors a popular weekly on-line Q&A column, "The Jewish
> > > Ethicist", which gives Jewish guidance on everyday ethical dilemmas in
> the
> > > workplace. The column is a joint project of the JCT Center for
Business
> > > Ethics, Jerusalem College of Technology - Machon Lev; and Aish
HaTorah.
> > You
> > > can see the Jewish Ethicist, and submit your own questions, at
> > > www.jewishethicist.com or at www.aish.com.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Cat Protector]

On who's rule do you say that? Also, who is to say what is tradition? These
things after all were written by man so I'd hardly call the torah law. Also,
what do you consider traditional Jews? Those who are reform are certainly
not going to let the Jewish laws limit them.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> news:d_m4c.4658$wg.1583@okepread01...
> > I think the torah is very much open to individual interpretation.
>
> You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it that
way.
>
> >Last time
> > I checked we're all apart of humanity. I don't believe in limits. Why
> should
> > I be bound by the rules of the torah?
>
> You're entitled to your opinion, but traditional Jews don't see it this
way.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>
>
>
>
> This is 2004. Not the days of Moses.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Cat Protector]

That is not a fact. I certainly don't observe Shabbot.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"cindys" > wrote in message
...

> Not at all. The fact is that all Jews are obligated to observe shabbos,
but
> no one is obligated to adopt an animal.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>

[Cat Protector]

I agree on this one. A perfect example is Passover. My mom made it a little
bit more fun than reading the books time after time. Also, she added a
metaphysical twist which made it go down a lot easier.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Does the Torah say anything about anesthetics?
> Religion, like software seems to need constant updates!
>

[Paul Stamler]

cindys > wrote in message
...

> > > The torah is not open to individual interpretation, and the fact
remains
> > > that for a Jew to spay or neuter is a torah transgression. The mitzvos
> do
> > > not apply to non-Jews, and therefore the torah would not find it
> > problematic
> > > for a non-Jew to spay or neuter.
> >
> > In other words, the equvalent of a "Shabbos goy"? (For those not
familiar
> > with the term, a "Shabbos goy" was a Gentile employed by observant Jews
to
> > mind the store or run the factory on the sabbath, when Jews are not
> > permitted to work.)
> ----------
> Not at all. The fact is that all Jews are obligated to observe shabbos,
but
> no one is obligated to adopt an animal.

True but irrelevant; no Jew is required to keep the store or factory open on
Shabbos either. If an owner chooses to do so, s/he employs a Shabbos goy.
Likewise, if s/he adopts a pet, it's one that a Gentile has already
neutered.

Peace,
Paul

[kilikini]

"Norma" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> > > I think basing your life around a book
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts, though maybe not all thoughts should be made
> > public domain.
>
> Especially on Jewish newsgroups??? HOw on earth did this bit of
> crossposting get started anyway? Norma
>

Norma, that was *my* original question to. The OP started this thread about
women and cats in soc.culture.jewish., sci.med.nursing. and rec.audio.pro.
Why was it cross-posted like that? Anyway, I'm glad it was. I had no idea
that the jewish faith was technically against spaying or neutering. I found
this topic sort of interesting. Sorry for perpetuating the thread by
replying, but I find the views that have been posted very curious.

kilikini

[[email protected]]

"kilikini" > wrote in message >...
> "Norma" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "ys" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > >
> > > "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> > > hlink.net...
> > > > I think basing your life around a book
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for your thoughts, though maybe not all thoughts should be made
> > > public domain.
> >
> > Especially on Jewish newsgroups??? HOw on earth did this bit of
> > crossposting get started anyway? Norma
> >
>
> Norma, that was *my* original question to. The OP started this thread about
> women and cats in soc.culture.jewish., sci.med.nursing. and rec.audio.pro.
> Why was it cross-posted like that? Anyway, I'm glad it was. I had no idea
> that the jewish faith was technically against spaying or neutering. I found
> this topic sort of interesting. Sorry for perpetuating the thread by
> replying, but I find the views that have been posted very curious.
>
> kilikini

It's fine, I just didn't know how it got here. Norma

[Cat Protector]

It seems only certain Jews are against it and are using the torah to justify
why they shouldn't do the humane and responsible thing. I guess some people
will think of anything in order to justify their irresponsiblity.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"kilikini" > wrote in message
...

> Norma, that was *my* original question to. The OP started this thread
about
> women and cats in soc.culture.jewish., sci.med.nursing. and rec.audio.pro.
> Why was it cross-posted like that? Anyway, I'm glad it was. I had no
idea
> that the jewish faith was technically against spaying or neutering. I
found
> this topic sort of interesting. Sorry for perpetuating the thread by
> replying, but I find the views that have been posted very curious.
>
> kilikini
>
>

[West Wing Audio]

Norma wrote:
> >
> > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
> > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
> > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > author's of the aforementioned Law.
>
> Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about this.
> So who is doing what? Norma

It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not prepared
for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.

Good day.

[Tommy B]

OK, time for TorahUpdate 2004. Download it now!
Wouldn't it be great if everyone had full time connection to his/her higher
power so there wouldn't be any need for Religion. When Jesus said "Be Like
Me" &" "The Kingdom of God is here at hand", I think that's what he ment. If
one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
Tom




"West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
...
> Norma wrote:
> > >
> > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings that
> > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in general
> > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> >
> > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
this.
> > So who is doing what? Norma
>
> It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not prepared
> for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
>
> Good day.

[ys]

"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...


> one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"


The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants. Not
what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us. It is
Right because Hashem wants it to be done. Technically, Love is all inclusive
of 10 different light energies which stream from the Creator. How to receive
it, maintain it and generate it - is precisely what the Torah is here to
teach us. Torah is the blueprint for all of creation and the manuscript for
life for all humanity. It teaches us to distinguish between right and wrong
and how to live according to the laws set out for us by the Creator. 613 for
the Jews, 7 spiritual laws for non-Jews. One can't guess at what love is and
certainly the brand of *love* exhibited by idol worshippers in the name of
*brotherhood*, *peace* and *love* are blasphemous to the Creator. So? Live
and learn. Sooner or later the world will *get it*. You can't go against the
Creator for this is going against nature which spells only death, loving
Hashem's laws is choosing life.

"I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." Deuteronomy 11.26

YS




>
>
>
>
> "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Norma wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings
that
> > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
general
> > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > >
> > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
> this.
> > > So who is doing what? Norma
> >
> > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not prepared
> > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> >
> > Good day.
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

[Bob Cain]

Tommy B wrote:

> OK, time for TorahUpdate 2004. Download it now!
> Wouldn't it be great if everyone had full time connection to his/her higher
> power so there wouldn't be any need for Religion. When Jesus said "Be Like
> Me" &" "The Kingdom of God is here at hand", I think that's what he ment. If
> one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"

The gnostic interpretation that you refer to was a major
movement in early Christianity and there is reason to
believe that even Christianity's creator, Paul, was gnostic.
Whoever wrote the gospel attributed to Thomas certainly
was and it bears reading. The Roman church nearly succeeded
in stamping out all evidence that the gnostic movement and
its writings ever existed.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Tommy B]

The Creator is within and without.
If one has a conscious contact with the Creator, then is not everything one
does inspired by that connection?
Maintaining it, is the hard part.
Tom



"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>
>
> > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
>
>
> The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants.
Not
> what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us. It is
> Right because Hashem wants it to be done. Technically, Love is all
inclusive
> of 10 different light energies which stream from the Creator. How to
receive
> it, maintain it and generate it - is precisely what the Torah is here to
> teach us. Torah is the blueprint for all of creation and the manuscript
for
> life for all humanity. It teaches us to distinguish between right and
wrong
> and how to live according to the laws set out for us by the Creator. 613
for
> the Jews, 7 spiritual laws for non-Jews. One can't guess at what love is
and
> certainly the brand of *love* exhibited by idol worshippers in the name of
> *brotherhood*, *peace* and *love* are blasphemous to the Creator. So? Live
> and learn. Sooner or later the world will *get it*. You can't go against
the
> Creator for this is going against nature which spells only death, loving
> Hashem's laws is choosing life.
>
> "I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." Deuteronomy 11.26
>
> YS
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Norma wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings
> that
> > > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
> general
> > > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be
avoided,
> > > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > > >
> > > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
> > this.
> > > > So who is doing what? Norma
> > >
> > > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not
prepared
> > > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> > >
> > > Good day.
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Cat Protector]

Whom or what do you consider the higher power?

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> OK, time for TorahUpdate 2004. Download it now!
> Wouldn't it be great if everyone had full time connection to his/her
higher
> power so there wouldn't be any need for Religion. When Jesus said "Be Like
> Me" &" "The Kingdom of God is here at hand", I think that's what he ment.
If
> one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Norma wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings
that
> > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
general
> > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be avoided,
> > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > >
> > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
> this.
> > > So who is doing what? Norma
> >
> > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not prepared
> > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> >
> > Good day.
>
>

[Mark Steven Brooks]

<< The Creator is within and without.
If one has a conscious contact with the Creator, then is not everything one
does inspired by that connection?
Maintaining it, is the hard part. >>


No kidding.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

[Cat Protector]

You sound like one of those religious nuts who show up at your door with
bible in hand. I wish you would end this cross posting and leave the cat
group alone.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message news:k1K5c.43440
> The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants.
Not
> what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us. It is
> Right because Hashem wants it to be done. Technically, Love is all
inclusive
> of 10 different light energies which stream from the Creator. How to
receive
> it, maintain it and generate it - is precisely what the Torah is here to
> teach us. Torah is the blueprint for all of creation and the manuscript
for
> life for all humanity. It teaches us to distinguish between right and
wrong
> and how to live according to the laws set out for us by the Creator. 613
for
> the Jews, 7 spiritual laws for non-Jews. One can't guess at what love is
and
> certainly the brand of *love* exhibited by idol worshippers in the name of
> *brotherhood*, *peace* and *love* are blasphemous to the Creator. So? Live
> and learn. Sooner or later the world will *get it*. You can't go against
the
> Creator for this is going against nature which spells only death, loving
> Hashem's laws is choosing life.
>
> "I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." Deuteronomy 11.26
>
> YS
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Norma wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings
> that
> > > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
> general
> > > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be
avoided,
> > > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > > >
> > > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
> > this.
> > > > So who is doing what? Norma
> > >
> > > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not
prepared
> > > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> > >
> > > Good day.
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Bob Cain]

Tommy B wrote:

> The Creator is within and without.
> If one has a conscious contact with the Creator, then is not everything one
> does inspired by that connection?

But of course.

> Maintaining it, is the hard part.

Not really, it just takes practice and can start small, once
a day, then twice a day then a little more frequently and
pretty soon it becomes the ground for the whole gestalt of life.

Muhammad's wisdom was in evidence in making regularaly
scheduled daily prayer one of the pillars of Islam. If he
only had spent a bit more time considering the falibility
and social evolution of man and a bit less on the perfection
of Al Lah and himself as the messenger he might have had the
wisdom to establish something after himself on a more
practical level that could have avoided the splits and
bloodshed that soon fouled it and persist to this day.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Bob Cain]

Cat Protector wrote:

> Whom or what do you consider the higher power?
>

Yes.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[david]

In article >, Bob Cain
> wrote:

> Muhammad's wisdom was in evidence in making regularaly
> scheduled daily prayer one of the pillars of Islam. If he
> only had spent a bit more time considering the falibility
> and social evolution of man and a bit less on the perfection
> of Al Lah and himself as the messenger he might have had the
> wisdom to establish something after himself on a more
> practical level that could have avoided the splits and
> bloodshed that soon fouled it and persist to this day.
>
>
> Bob




First of all, you are assuming what you read today as his words are
accurate. A preeeetty big assumption from my pov.

Second, he was speaking to those of his day. He coulda given two ****s
about people who've yet existed. And as far as building a better sand
castle for "something after himself", I would think that he'd also not
have given two ****s about that either.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

[Bob Cain]

david wrote:

>
>>Muhammad's wisdom was in evidence in making regularaly
>>scheduled daily prayer one of the pillars of Islam. If he
>>only had spent a bit more time considering the falibility
>>and social evolution of man and a bit less on the perfection
>>of Al Lah and himself as the messenger he might have had the
>>wisdom to establish something after himself on a more
>>practical level that could have avoided the splits and
>>bloodshed that soon fouled it and persist to this day.
>>
>
> First of all, you are assuming what you read today as his words are
> accurate. A preeeetty big assumption from my pov.

True enough and the history of the Quaran is certainly open
to debate. I've read some interesting points of view that
claim it to be no better authenticated or replicated than
the Christian writings and coopted for later goals just as
ruthlessly. Not, unfortunately, from Islamic scholars.

>
> Second, he was speaking to those of his day. He coulda given two ****s
> about people who've yet existed. And as far as building a better sand
> castle for "something after himself", I would think that he'd also not
> have given two ****s about that either.

That was sorta my point. How could a guy that thought he
was so plugged in have failed to look ahead in such
important ways. That just doesn't compute.

Contrary to your second statement, are you suggesting in the
first one that perhaps he did and it didn't make it through
the ensuing fight for succession? That's all together possible.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

[Tommy B]

I always say: "There's a universal DOG and we all have a little piece. Then
again I'm dyslexic."

Tom



"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
news:06O5c.27648$wg.11789@okepread01...
> Whom or what do you consider the higher power?
>
> --
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
> www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek
>
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
> "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > OK, time for TorahUpdate 2004. Download it now!
> > Wouldn't it be great if everyone had full time connection to his/her
> higher
> > power so there wouldn't be any need for Religion. When Jesus said "Be
Like
> > Me" &" "The Kingdom of God is here at hand", I think that's what he
ment.
> If
> > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Norma wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's postings
> that
> > > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
> general
> > > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be
avoided,
> > > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > > >
> > > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong about
> > this.
> > > > So who is doing what? Norma
> > >
> > > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not
prepared
> > > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> > >
> > > Good day.
> >
> >
>
>

[ys]

"Tommy B" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> The Creator is within and without.


What does this mean? How does it actually translate into everyday living?


> If one has a conscious contact with the Creator, then is not everything
one
> does inspired by that connection?


What is consciousness?


> Maintaining it, is the hard part.


So said the iMac repairman.

YS






>
> "ys" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> >
> >
> > > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
> >
> >
> > The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants.
> Not
> > what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us. It is
> > Right because Hashem wants it to be done. Technically, Love is all
> inclusive
> > of 10 different light energies which stream from the Creator. How to
> receive
> > it, maintain it and generate it - is precisely what the Torah is here to
> > teach us. Torah is the blueprint for all of creation and the manuscript
> for
> > life for all humanity. It teaches us to distinguish between right and
> wrong
> > and how to live according to the laws set out for us by the Creator. 613
> for
> > the Jews, 7 spiritual laws for non-Jews. One can't guess at what love is
> and
> > certainly the brand of *love* exhibited by idol worshippers in the name
of
> > *brotherhood*, *peace* and *love* are blasphemous to the Creator. So?
Live
> > and learn. Sooner or later the world will *get it*. You can't go against
> the
> > Creator for this is going against nature which spells only death, loving
> > Hashem's laws is choosing life.
> >
> > "I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." Deuteronomy 11.26
> >
> > YS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "West Wing Audio" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Norma wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. The astute reader will have already gleaned from YS's
postings
> > that
> > > > > > he/she places great importance on Toraic Law - insofar as he/she
> > > > > > understands it - as it relates not just to cats and animals in
> > general
> > > > > > but all of life. Toraic Law dictates that women are to be
> avoided,
> > > > > > indeed shunned, during their cycles as they are "unclean" by the
> > > > > > author's of the aforementioned Law.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey! Listen, you, as the non-astute writer, are totally wrong
about
> > > this.
> > > > > So who is doing what? Norma
> > > >
> > > > It's really quite simple. You asked, I replied. If you're not
> prepared
> > > > for answers that may run contrary to your belief or opinion, you'll
> > > > likely find a better use for your time in some other pursuit.
> > > >
> > > > Good day.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
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[MaxTransUnit]

ys wrote:
>
> "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>
> > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
>
> The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants. Not
> what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us.

The problem being that there is disagreement - often violent
disagreement - about "what the Creator wants." And whose version of the
Creator is to hold sway?

Witness the myriad splinter sects within every major world religion.
Which one follows the "true" Creator? And within that subset, which one
has the "true" understanding of what the Creator wants?

[ys]

"MaxTransUnit" > wrote in message
...
> ys wrote:
> >
> > "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> >
> > > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
> >
> > The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman wants.
Not
> > what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us.
>
> The problem being that there is disagreement - often violent
> disagreement - about "what the Creator wants."

Because of division of the Torah into sub-parts which no longer resemble the
Original.


And whose version of the
> Creator is to hold sway?


The word of God as given to Moses.



>
> Witness the myriad splinter sects within every major world religion.
> Which one follows the "true" Creator? And within that subset, which one
> has the "true" understanding of what the Creator wants?


Chabad.


YS


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04

[Cat Protector]

Stop cross-posting already! This stuff does not neet to be in a newsgroup
for cats.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"ys" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "MaxTransUnit" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ys wrote:
> > >
> > > "Tommy B" > wrote in message
> > > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > > one comes from Love, one always does "the right thing"
> > >
> > > The right thing is what the Creator wants. Not what man or woman
wants.
> Not
> > > what makes you necessarily feel good, but what is commanded of us.
> >
> > The problem being that there is disagreement - often violent
> > disagreement - about "what the Creator wants."
>
> Because of division of the Torah into sub-parts which no longer resemble
the
> Original.
>
>
> And whose version of the
> > Creator is to hold sway?
>
>
> The word of God as given to Moses.
>
>
>
> >
> > Witness the myriad splinter sects within every major world religion.
> > Which one follows the "true" Creator? And within that subset, which one
> > has the "true" understanding of what the Creator wants?
>
>
> Chabad.
>
>
> YS
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 2/28/04
>
>

[Vincent Wilcox]

Sheena Weston wrote:
> Why is it that cats generally make better pets for women, where
> dogs usually make better pets for men? Of course, there are
> always exceptions.

For the very reasons you give.