Reclaiming Volume Loss from Unbalanced Console Outs

[Sharp9]

I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd

The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on my
(Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either way,
what can I do to reclaim that volume?

TIA

[Paul Stamler]

Sharp9 > wrote in message
news:Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04...
> I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>
> The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on
my
> (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either
way,
> what can I do to reclaim that volume?

Don't. That difference gives you some headroom in the amp.

Peace,
Paul

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Sharp9" > wrote in message news:Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04...
> I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>
> The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on my
> (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either way,
> what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>
> TIA
>
>

I am not certain that this is an issue of "unbalanced" when you are
in reference to driving power amps. It's not uncommon for the L & R
to share a common ground in this case. I trust that he outputs you
refer to are just for the control room monitor send.

There is a great deal of headroom on the Orion... to the tune of +24
or more, if I recall correctly. You can check your manuals or get PDF
manuals from the D&R website.

Recalibrating the meters to suit would be an easy, workable solution.
That would also increase the main L & R record out levels by the same
amount, leading to an adjustment in overall signal path level matching.

I sat behind a 4000 series for 17 years, and when we went to digital
tape machines we simply recalibrated the metering to increase our
output levels track by track (and to the 2-buss) to the machines, and
thus to the monitoring. A 0dBVU tone at the input of a module was
recalibrated to read -10 on the channel meter, thus we hit everything
hotter as a result and our metering didn't ride off the scale.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04>,
Sharp9 > wrote:
>I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>
>The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on my
>(Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either way,
>what can I do to reclaim that volume?

What is the reference level the amp is set for? And what is the reference
level coming out of the Orion?

And why do you need to turn the amp up any louder anyway?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sharp9]

You're right David I miss spoke, it's the CR outs not the 2 track outs. I'll
dig out the manual and start looking for the calibration instructions.
Thanks,
Don
"David Morgan (MAMS)" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sharp9" > wrote in message
news:Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04...
> > I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
> >
> > The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters
on my
> > (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either
way,
> > what can I do to reclaim that volume?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> >
>
> I am not certain that this is an issue of "unbalanced" when you are
> in reference to driving power amps. It's not uncommon for the L & R
> to share a common ground in this case. I trust that he outputs you
> refer to are just for the control room monitor send.
>
> There is a great deal of headroom on the Orion... to the tune of +24
> or more, if I recall correctly. You can check your manuals or get PDF
> manuals from the D&R website.
>
> Recalibrating the meters to suit would be an easy, workable solution.
> That would also increase the main L & R record out levels by the same
> amount, leading to an adjustment in overall signal path level matching.
>
> I sat behind a 4000 series for 17 years, and when we went to digital
> tape machines we simply recalibrated the metering to increase our
> output levels track by track (and to the 2-buss) to the machines, and
> thus to the monitoring. A 0dBVU tone at the input of a module was
> recalibrated to read -10 on the channel meter, thus we hit everything
> hotter as a result and our metering didn't ride off the scale.
>
> --
> David Morgan (MAMS)
> http://www.m-a-m-s.com
> http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
>
>

[Michael R. Kesti]

Paul Stamler wrote:

>Sharp9 > wrote in message
>news:Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04...
>> I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>>
>> The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on my
>> (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either way,
>> what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>
>Don't. That difference gives you some headroom in the amp.

Indeed. That 0 dB level on your meteres is a nominal level rather than
a maximum level and it's perfectly normal to have peaks that exceed
nominal level. There would be no room for those peaks if your amplifier
is at full power output when your board is at nominal level. It's even
possible that 12 dB is not enough headroom.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

[Sharp9]

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> In article <Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04>,
> Sharp9 > wrote:
> >I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
> >
> >The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on
my
> >(Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either
way,
> >what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>
> What is the reference level the amp is set for? And what is the reference
> level coming out of the Orion?

I don't know but I know my tape deck was calibrated to +9 and the levels
were set from there. This was before I bought this amp. Is it something I
can check with a multimeter?

>
> And why do you need to turn the amp up any louder anyway?

Crush - Kill - Destroy!

Seriously, the amp is running almost 650 watts a side (it's rated 650@4ohms
but my BM6's are rated at around 5 ohms I think) and it's just "getting"
loud when it's cranked. It seems like it should be able to knock people down
on the rare occassion I want to.

> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Sharp9" > wrote in message
news:G%w3c.93778$PR3.1645249@attbi_s03
> "Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article <Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04>,
>> Sharp9 > wrote:
>>> I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>>>
>>> The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input
>>> meters on my (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only
>>> cost 6db but either way, what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>>
>> What is the reference level the amp is set for? And what is the
>> reference level coming out of the Orion?
>
> I don't know but I know my tape deck was calibrated to +9 and the
> levels were set from there. This was before I bought this amp. Is it
> something I can check with a multimeter?

Meters are bad tools for this sort of thing because they tend to report
averages, not peaks. Your goal should be to have enough drive for the power
amps to bring them up to clipping, with maybe a few (3-6) dB extra gain that
you normally back off.

I can't think of meter readings for you to look for because the peak (what
causes clipping) to average (what your meter will read) varies with the kind
of music. I can't even predict peak-to-average if I knew what genre of music
was involved because it can vary all over the place within a genre.

If you have true clipping indicators (IOW clipping indicators like those on
QSC amps that report actual differences between actual and ideal
performance) I think you should have gains set so that you can clip the amps
a tad with your main volume control set around 2 or 3 o'clock.

Of course, if the capabilities of your amp exceed the power handling
capacity of your speakers, you shouldn't be fooling with clipping the amps,
no way! If you don't know, you should fuse the speakers appropriately, and
then set gains so that under extreme conditions you can just barely not blow
the fuses. IOW, be able to blow fuses that are a little smaller than the
power handling capacity of the speakers can tolerate.

[Scott Dorsey]

Sharp9 > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>> In article <Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04>,
>> Sharp9 > wrote:
>> >I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>> >
>> >The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on
>my
>> >(Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either
>way,
>> >what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>>
>> What is the reference level the amp is set for? And what is the reference
>> level coming out of the Orion?
>
>I don't know but I know my tape deck was calibrated to +9 and the levels
>were set from there. This was before I bought this amp. Is it something I
>can check with a multimeter?

No, but it's something you can look up in the manual.

I'm not talking about levels to tape, I am talking about actual signal levels
with respect to a volt, going in and out of the amp.

>> And why do you need to turn the amp up any louder anyway?
>
>Crush - Kill - Destroy!
>
>Seriously, the amp is running almost 650 watts a side (it's rated 650@4ohms
>but my BM6's are rated at around 5 ohms I think) and it's just "getting"
>loud when it's cranked. It seems like it should be able to knock people down
>on the rare occassion I want to.

You got the manual for the amp? Odds are the reference level on it is
adjustable somewhere, with a jumper or pot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sharp9]

Hi all, thanks for the responses. I had a tech in and there was a real issue
(nothing serious) with the console. The amp does indeed have peak reading
meters so everything said is correct but the lack of volume was due to a
problem.

Now I can't believe how little power the Dynaudio BM-6's can take. They
sound great though.
DA

"Sharp9" > wrote in message
news:Wxo3c.529280$na.1267818@attbi_s04...
> I have a D&R Orion with main outs on a single XLR L-R-Gnd
>
> The problem is that 0db on the 2 buss meters = -12 on the input meters on
my
> (Dynaudio) Amp. I thought the unbalanced thing only cost 6db but either
way,
> what can I do to reclaim that volume?
>
> TIA
>
>

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Sharp9" > wrote in message news:L206c.31526$1p.483131@attbi_s54...
> Hi all, thanks for the responses. I had a tech in and there was a real issue
> (nothing serious) with the console. The amp does indeed have peak reading
> meters so everything said is correct but the lack of volume was due to a
> problem.
>
> Now I can't believe how little power the Dynaudio BM-6's can take. They
> sound great though.
> DA


Inquiring minds....

If not here, send me an e-mail and let me know what the problem was.
Always interested in 'solutions' for adding to the personal 'kit' of info...

DM