Upgrading PA Speakers

[Jonny Durango]

I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er) that I'd like to
upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better sound quality for less money if
I simply replace vital parts like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
new speakers? If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely to find a good pair
of 15's w/ horns for that price, so I figured I might be able to buy the
hardware itself for about that. I play mostly rock...use PA for vocals and a
lil guitar and piano (newer mackie power amp and mixer) What do ya'll
suggest? Thanks a million!

ps: should I replace the crossover too?

--

Jonny Durango

http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
WWII.

[Peter Larsen]

Jonny Durango wrote:

> I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er)
> that I'd like to upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better
> sound quality for less money if I simply replace vital parts
> like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
> new speakers?

Strange idea. With a 2-way 15" + horn I'd look into using an active
cross-over of some kind and a separate amp for the horn as the first
option to research. Passive cross-overs used at high power tend to limit
quality more than probably any other problem those speakers may have -
assuming that you have checked whether adding bracing to the cabinets is
needed.

> If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
> combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely
> to find a good pair of 15's w/ horns for that price,
> so I figured I might be able to buy the
> hardware itself for about that.

USD 400 ought to get you an active cross-over and an extra poweramp.

> ps: should I replace the crossover too?

You can not start swapping loudspeaker units out for other units without
getting into total redesign of a passive cross-over. And you will be in
design trouble already with the bass reflex tuning, high power high
performance 15" units are close to one another, because there is only
one set of parameters that provides optimum performance, but they are
not identical, you may get away with unchanged box volume, but probably
not with unchanged port(s).

You may well be best of trading them in when purchasing new or selling
them and purchase new if you are not a tweakoholic, if you are able to
get the setup of an active cross-over right - or have someone that can
help you, including fit a proper horn driver protection capacitor - then
most bang for the money is likely to change over to running them with an
active cross-over.
But it may not be the best solution for you just by being what I *think*
I would (I haven't heard them, mind you!) do, and it is also not a good
solution if you want to be able to double your rig later. Examine all
options with care.

> Jonny Durango


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Scott Dorsey]

Jonny Durango > wrote:
>I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er) that I'd like to
>upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better sound quality for less money if
>I simply replace vital parts like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
>new speakers? If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
>combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely to find a good pair
>of 15's w/ horns for that price, so I figured I might be able to buy the
>hardware itself for about that. I play mostly rock...use PA for vocals and a
>lil guitar and piano (newer mackie power amp and mixer) What do ya'll
>suggest? Thanks a million!

It will be cheaper to buy new speakers.

If you want to buy a lot of test equipment, and a whole lot of drivers, and
spend a few years modifying and voicing speakers, you will wind up having a
very good time and you might, if you get good at it, wind up with better
speakers than you started out with. But it will cost you a lot more money
than just buying new speakers.

>ps: should I replace the crossover too?

Dunno. First you need to take the crossover out and measure the response
of each of the drivers in-cabinet, then you can figure out from that what
an optimal crossover is going to look like. You can do that with a few
hundred dollars worth of gear (less if you are willing to take a chance and
not do phase response plots). And you can do it in the backyard if you are
in a rural area and have a nice big quiet meadow. If you can get far enough
away from any structures and trees you can get away without having a real
anechoic chamber.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Analogeezer]

"Jonny Durango" > wrote in message news:<9EW2c.203230$uV3.818705@attbi_s51>...
> I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er) that I'd like to
> upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better sound quality for less money if
> I simply replace vital parts like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
> new speakers? If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
> combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely to find a good pair
> of 15's w/ horns for that price, so I figured I might be able to buy the
> hardware itself for about that. I play mostly rock...use PA for vocals and a
> lil guitar and piano (newer mackie power amp and mixer) What do ya'll
> suggest? Thanks a million!
>
> ps: should I replace the crossover too?
>
> --
>
> Jonny Durango
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm
>
> "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
> country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
> the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
> parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
> always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
> to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
> lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
> -- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
> WWII.

First off, what kind of power amp? M-1400i?

A friend of mine was wanting to sell a pair of these same model of EV
speakers, another friend was thinking about buying a pair of PA
speakers and amp to amplify his V-Drum kit (spare me the "V-Drums
Suck" quote, the guy has and plays four other acoustic drumkits, the
V's are used here and there as he sees fit).

I asked about these EV's over on AAPLS and got one reply....basically
the guy said these sucked when they were new and suck even more now.
That's just one opinion but I seem to recall the things as being
pretty harsh when I heard them about 10 years ago.

You might be best off selling the EV's and moving on to something
else, but with the $300 the EV's would fetch and another $400 you
won't get too far.

I'd second the recommendation the other poster had....get an active
crossover and a 2nd amp.

Having control over the horn level with these types of cabinets really
makes a difference, I think the passive crossovers tend to hype the
level of the HF horn for two reasons:

1. It makes you think the speaker is louder than it is

2. It gets loud and piercy kind of quick, that way you don't turn it
up more and blow out the woofer.

If you get an active crossover and another amp, those would serve you
later on too if you moved on to a better class of PA speaker.

Analogeezer

[Jonny Durango]

great advice! I hadn't considered an active x-over....that would defintely
explain why the highs are not high and the lows ain't low.....i'll try that
before i buy all new speakers. Thanks!

--

Jonny Durango

http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
WWII.



"Peter Larsen" > wrote in message
...
> Jonny Durango wrote:
>
> > I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er)
> > that I'd like to upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better
> > sound quality for less money if I simply replace vital parts
> > like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
> > new speakers?
>
> Strange idea. With a 2-way 15" + horn I'd look into using an active
> cross-over of some kind and a separate amp for the horn as the first
> option to research. Passive cross-overs used at high power tend to limit
> quality more than probably any other problem those speakers may have -
> assuming that you have checked whether adding bracing to the cabinets is
> needed.
>
> > If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
> > combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely
> > to find a good pair of 15's w/ horns for that price,
> > so I figured I might be able to buy the
> > hardware itself for about that.
>
> USD 400 ought to get you an active cross-over and an extra poweramp.
>
> > ps: should I replace the crossover too?
>
> You can not start swapping loudspeaker units out for other units without
> getting into total redesign of a passive cross-over. And you will be in
> design trouble already with the bass reflex tuning, high power high
> performance 15" units are close to one another, because there is only
> one set of parameters that provides optimum performance, but they are
> not identical, you may get away with unchanged box volume, but probably
> not with unchanged port(s).
>
> You may well be best of trading them in when purchasing new or selling
> them and purchase new if you are not a tweakoholic, if you are able to
> get the setup of an active cross-over right - or have someone that can
> help you, including fit a proper horn driver protection capacitor - then
> most bang for the money is likely to change over to running them with an
> active cross-over.
> But it may not be the best solution for you just by being what I *think*
> I would (I haven't heard them, mind you!) do, and it is also not a good
> solution if you want to be able to double your rig later. Examine all
> options with care.
>
> > Jonny Durango
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
> --
> *******************************************
> * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
> *******************************************

[Jonny Durango]

> >ps: should I replace the crossover too?
>
> Dunno. First you need to take the crossover out and measure the response
> of each of the drivers in-cabinet, then you can figure out from that what
> an optimal crossover is going to look like. You can do that with a few
> hundred dollars worth of gear (less if you are willing to take a chance
and
> not do phase response plots). And you can do it in the backyard if you
are
> in a rural area and have a nice big quiet meadow. If you can get far
enough
> away from any structures and trees you can get away without having a real
> anechoic chamber.
> --scott

????

--

Jonny Durango

http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
WWII.



"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Jonny Durango > wrote:
> >I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er) that I'd like
to
> >upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better sound quality for less money
if
> >I simply replace vital parts like the drivers, instead of buying entirely
> >new speakers? If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
> >combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely to find a good
pair
> >of 15's w/ horns for that price, so I figured I might be able to buy the
> >hardware itself for about that. I play mostly rock...use PA for vocals
and a
> >lil guitar and piano (newer mackie power amp and mixer) What do ya'll
> >suggest? Thanks a million!
>
> It will be cheaper to buy new speakers.
>
> If you want to buy a lot of test equipment, and a whole lot of drivers,
and
> spend a few years modifying and voicing speakers, you will wind up having
a
> very good time and you might, if you get good at it, wind up with better
> speakers than you started out with. But it will cost you a lot more money
> than just buying new speakers.
>
> >ps: should I replace the crossover too?
>
> Dunno. First you need to take the crossover out and measure the response
> of each of the drivers in-cabinet, then you can figure out from that what
> an optimal crossover is going to look like. You can do that with a few
> hundred dollars worth of gear (less if you are willing to take a chance
and
> not do phase response plots). And you can do it in the backyard if you
are
> in a rural area and have a nice big quiet meadow. If you can get far
enough
> away from any structures and trees you can get away without having a real
> anechoic chamber.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jonny Durango]

Oh damn, I will have to get another power amp to use an active crossover? I
thought an active crossover was it's own line level amp (between the power
amp and speakers) that amplifies one signal into two (one bass and one
treble channel)...so I'd actually need two amps? One to drive the subs and
one for the horns? thanks in advance

--

Jonny Durango

http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
WWII.



"Analogeezer" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jonny Durango" > wrote in
message news:<9EW2c.203230$uV3.818705@attbi_s51>...
> > I have a pair of old 15" w/ horns EV speakers (sh-1512er) that I'd like
to
> > upgrade. I'm wondering if I could get better sound quality for less
money if
> > I simply replace vital parts like the drivers, instead of buying
entirely
> > new speakers? If so, what do ya'll recommend for a good 15" sub and horn
> > combo? My budget is only about $400, and I'm not likely to find a good
pair
> > of 15's w/ horns for that price, so I figured I might be able to buy the
> > hardware itself for about that. I play mostly rock...use PA for vocals
and a
> > lil guitar and piano (newer mackie power amp and mixer) What do ya'll
> > suggest? Thanks a million!
> >
> > ps: should I replace the crossover too?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jonny Durango
> >
> > http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm
> >
> > "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of
the
> > country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to
drag
> > the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
> > parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can
> > always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have
> > to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
for
> > lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
> > -- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials
after
> > WWII.
>
> First off, what kind of power amp? M-1400i?
>
> A friend of mine was wanting to sell a pair of these same model of EV
> speakers, another friend was thinking about buying a pair of PA
> speakers and amp to amplify his V-Drum kit (spare me the "V-Drums
> Suck" quote, the guy has and plays four other acoustic drumkits, the
> V's are used here and there as he sees fit).
>
> I asked about these EV's over on AAPLS and got one reply....basically
> the guy said these sucked when they were new and suck even more now.
> That's just one opinion but I seem to recall the things as being
> pretty harsh when I heard them about 10 years ago.
>
> You might be best off selling the EV's and moving on to something
> else, but with the $300 the EV's would fetch and another $400 you
> won't get too far.
>
> I'd second the recommendation the other poster had....get an active
> crossover and a 2nd amp.
>
> Having control over the horn level with these types of cabinets really
> makes a difference, I think the passive crossovers tend to hype the
> level of the HF horn for two reasons:
>
> 1. It makes you think the speaker is louder than it is
>
> 2. It gets loud and piercy kind of quick, that way you don't turn it
> up more and blow out the woofer.
>
> If you get an active crossover and another amp, those would serve you
> later on too if you moved on to a better class of PA speaker.
>
> Analogeezer

[Peter Larsen]

Jonny Durango wrote:

> Oh damn, I will have to get another power amp to use an
> active crossover?

If you had used selective, in place, quoting rather than top-posting,
then you might have detected this:

>> USD 400 ought to get you an active cross-over
>> and an extra poweramp.

Again, I am most inclined to suggest selling and getting new active
loudspeakers. It can be very convenient for you to be able to double
your rig by hiring, as soon as you start customizing what you have that
options may go away. At the very least get something that is fairly
"general purpose" so that you keep the options described here:

[analogeezer quoted]

>> If you get an active crossover and another amp, those
>> would serve you later on too if you moved on to a better
>> class of PA speaker.

The subtle point that I try to get across with this is that your
questions suggest that you are not the right person to
modernize/customize what you have. It's just too costly to goof with
that kind of equipment.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

[Scott Dorsey]

Jonny Durango > wrote:
>> >ps: should I replace the crossover too?
>>
>> Dunno. First you need to take the crossover out and measure the response
>> of each of the drivers in-cabinet, then you can figure out from that what
>> an optimal crossover is going to look like. You can do that with a few
>> hundred dollars worth of gear (less if you are willing to take a chance
>and
>> not do phase response plots). And you can do it in the backyard if you
>are
>> in a rural area and have a nice big quiet meadow. If you can get far
>enough
>> away from any structures and trees you can get away without having a real
>> anechoic chamber.
>
>????

That's basically the starting point for designing a new crossover. If you
don't know what the response of the drivers are individually, how can
you predict what they'll be like together?

Dickason's _Loudspeaker Cookbook_ is a nice introduction to speaker design.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

Jonny Durango > wrote in message
news:Tbi3c.157063$Xp.628750@attbi_s54...

> Oh damn, I will have to get another power amp to use an active crossover?
I
> thought an active crossover was it's own line level amp (between the power
> amp and speakers) that amplifies one signal into two (one bass and one
> treble channel)...so I'd actually need two amps? One to drive the subs and
> one for the horns? thanks in advance

Actually, you don't have subs, you have woofers. They go down to about 50 or
60Hz, if I remember that particular EV speaker right (it's been a long
time). Subs would be separate speakers used for the really low frequencies
(20-60Hz).

I concur with everybody else: sell these and buy a decent pair of active
speakers. Forgive me, but you're starting from scratch in the
speaker-building universe, and it'll take a couple of years for you to learn
enough to modify them, and they'll never be all that great even when you do.
I still remember, with a blush, some of the big, big mistakes I made when I
started doing that stuff.

Peace,
Paul

[Analogeezer]

"Jonny Durango" > wrote in message news:<Tbi3c.157063$Xp.628750@attbi_s54>...
> Oh damn, I will have to get another power amp to use an active crossover? I
> thought an active crossover was it's own line level amp (between the power
> amp and speakers) that amplifies one signal into two (one bass and one
> treble channel)...so I'd actually need two amps? One to drive the subs and
> one for the horns? thanks in advance
>
> --
>
> Jonny Durango
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm
>
> "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
> country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
> the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
> parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
> always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
> to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
> lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
> -- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
> WWII.
>
>
>
Well you don't have too....you could run one side for the lows and the
other side for the highs.

The reason I chimed in with the 2nd recommedation for doing this
(biamping with an active crossover) is that with an active crossover
and power amps, you'd at least be able to use them for a better set of
speakers, if you decided to go that route later. If you replace the
speakers, I'd suspect your return in sound quality might not be that
great....and your resale value of the cabs would not be improved.

The other reason is that bypassing the built in crossover and having
level control over the horn (without having to resort to drastic EQ)
are both very good things.

If it makes you feel any better, years ago I biamped a pair of cheap
Peavey two way speakers this way, and the difference was amazing. By
turning the horn level down and futzing with the crossover point (a
HUGE Advantage IMHO) I was able to get a decent sound out of the
things...with the stock crossover they were pretty much unbearable.

Analogeezer

[Analogeezer]

"Jonny Durango" > wrote in message news:<Tbi3c.157063$Xp.628750@attbi_s54>...
> Oh damn, I will have to get another power amp to use an active crossover? I
> thought an active crossover was it's own line level amp (between the power
> amp and speakers) that amplifies one signal into two (one bass and one
> treble channel)...so I'd actually need two amps? One to drive the subs and
> one for the horns? thanks in advance
>
> --
>
> Jonny Durango
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/ratcitymusic.htm
>
> "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the
> country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag
> the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
> parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
> always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
> to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
> lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
> -- Herman Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, at the Nuremberg trials after
> WWII.

No you are both right and wrong...yes an active crossover is a line
level amp, BUT it doesn't split SPEAKER LEVEL from one amp into two
separate ampliified frequency components. That would make it a passive
crossover.

An active crossover comes BEFORE the power amps, each amp and speaker
set gets it's own volume control and frequency range control.

You don't need much power for the horns at all, 60 watts per channel
will get you well into ear bleeding territory with a compression
driver on a horn.

So you should be able to get a crossover and power amp (low power,
something like the Ashly single space job) for the budget you are
talking about...especially used.

Crossovers on the used market have gotten fairly cheap because higher
end people are going to "drive racks" and lower end people are going
to self powered or all passive systems with separate subs.

Since you don't know a lot about this stuff (nothing wrong with
that...that's why you are asking questions) you might be better off
buying new speakers and avoiding the complication of biamping.

Analogeezer