close micing hats & cymbals? (SM57's work well?)

[MHomeSter8]

I've just made the jump and bought a custom Roland V-drums kit, Ringo
style! (2 toms, snare, bass drum). I've decided to go for real Zildjians for
the hihat and 2 cymbals, and I need some advice about micing them.

1) I will have to close-mic the hihat and cymbals to avoid picking up
the "thuds" from the sticks hitting the mesh pads. What would be good
microphone choices? Since I'm not using overheads, would something as cheap as
3 SM57's work very well?

2) I have a Phoenix Audio DRS-1 preamp, but I'll need 2 additional
inputs for the mics. Any relatively cheap, good preamp choices for cymbals?
It would have to mix well with the Phoenix, which I assume I'll use on the
snare.

Thanks for any help!

[Garthrr]

(MHomeSter8) writes:

> 1) I will have to close-mic the hihat and cymbals to avoid picking
>up
>the "thuds" from the sticks hitting the mesh pads. What would be good
>microphone choices? Since I'm not using overheads, would something as cheap
>as
>3 SM57's work very well?

Sources with a lot of high frequency content such as cymbals, acoustic guitars,
etc are often recorded with condenser mics (the SM 57 is a dynamic mic). If you
want a grainy type of sound then the 57 would be fine. If you want a smoother,
more refined sound I would suggest a small diaphram condenser such as the
Oktava MC 012 which is actually less expensive than the 57 and, IMO, will do a
better job on many things, including high hat.


<< 2) I have a Phoenix Audio DRS-1 preamp, but I'll need 2 additional
inputs for the mics. Any relatively cheap, good preamp choices for cymbals?
It would have to mix well with the Phoenix, which I assume I'll use on the
snare.>>

The FMR RNP is only $500 for a two channel unit and would be an excellent
choice as it handles hot signals well and sounds good.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[Buster Mudd]

(MHomeSter8) wrote in message >...
> I've just made the jump and bought a custom Roland V-drums kit, Ringo
> style! (2 toms, snare, bass drum). I've decided to go for real Zildjians for
> the hihat and 2 cymbals, and I need some advice about micing them.
>
> 1) I will have to close-mic the hihat and cymbals to avoid picking up
> the "thuds" from the sticks hitting the mesh pads. What would be good
> microphone choices? Since I'm not using overheads, would something as cheap as
> 3 SM57's work very well?

"very" well? Not really. But they may work well enough. I've had live
sound riders come through my PA company where big-name/big-budget
bands actually spec'd an SM57 for close miking the ride cymbal, & it
sounded okay...but they were also using overheads. Bear in mind that a
close-miked cymbal without the benefit of additional overheads sounds
rather unusual; not what you're used to hearing on the radio or in
your CD collection. I've done some V-Drums + real cymbal tracking and
I found a stereo pair of small diaphragm condenser mics set up as
conventional drum overheads works fine. You don't have to worry about
picking up "thuds" from the pads. The sound of the sample that pad is
triggering will more than adequately mask any thuds, & you can hi-pass
the overheads to reduce them even more.

>
> 2) I have a Phoenix Audio DRS-1 preamp, but I'll need 2 additional
> inputs for the mics. Any relatively cheap, good preamp choices for cymbals?
> It would have to mix well with the Phoenix, which I assume I'll use on the
> snare.
>

Why would you need a mic preamp on a V-drum snare, aren't you just
triggering V-drum (or some other MIDI) samples with the snare pad? Use
your best mic pre for the stereo overheads, then whatever's leftover
in combination with a good DI for the V-Drum sounds.

[Mikey]

(MHomeSter8) wrote in message >...
> I've just made the jump and bought a custom Roland V-drums kit, Ringo
> style! (2 toms, snare, bass drum). I've decided to go for real Zildjians for
> the hihat and 2 cymbals, and I need some advice about micing them.
>
> 1) I will have to close-mic the hihat and cymbals to avoid picking up
> the "thuds" from the sticks hitting the mesh pads. What would be good
> microphone choices? Since I'm not using overheads, would something as cheap as
> 3 SM57's work very well?
>
> 2) I have a Phoenix Audio DRS-1 preamp, but I'll need 2 additional
> inputs for the mics. Any relatively cheap, good preamp choices for cymbals?
> It would have to mix well with the Phoenix, which I assume I'll use on the
> snare.
>
> Thanks for any help!

I agree with Garth on the RNP - it's a great choice, particularly with
57s. You didn't mention wheter this was for a live or recording
application. Live, I'd probably go with the 57s for durability and
bass roll-off. I've used the 012s live, and bass build-up can be a
problem, especially if you use the RNP, which has no lo-cut feature (I
tried to talk McQ into it, but...). EQ could solve the problem, tho.
In the studio I'd probably go with the 012s.

good luck,
Mikey
Nova Music Productions

[MHomeSter8]

>cymbals? (SM57's work well?)
>From: (Mikey)
>Date: 2/20/2004 9:49 AM Pacific Standard Time

>I agree with Garth on the RNP - it's a great choice, particularly with
>57s.

Thanks. Sold! It's about all I have enough budget left for.
I'll also forego the SM57 idea and try three Oktava MC 012's for
close micing. I have one nicer condenser, an AT 4060. For the time being, I'm
going to have to go for the mono overhead mic. Though that brings up another
question... Given that the MC 012's are so cheap, how well would they fare as
a stereo pair for overheads?

>You didn't mention wheter this was for a live or recording
>application.

Solely recording.

Thanks for your advice, everyone.

[John L Rice]

"MHomeSter8" > wrote in message
...
> >cymbals? (SM57's work well?)
> >From: (Mikey)
> >Date: 2/20/2004 9:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >I agree with Garth on the RNP - it's a great choice, particularly with
> >57s.
>
> Thanks. Sold! It's about all I have enough budget left for.
> I'll also forego the SM57 idea and try three Oktava MC 012's
for
> close micing. I have one nicer condenser, an AT 4060. For the time
being, I'm
> going to have to go for the mono overhead mic. Though that brings up
another
> question... Given that the MC 012's are so cheap, how well would they
fare as
> a stereo pair for overheads?
>
> >You didn't mention wheter this was for a live or recording
> >application.
>
> Solely recording.
>
> Thanks for your advice, everyone.

You might want to check out the Marshall MXL 603s small diaphragm
condensers. I've been using them for hihat, ride and roto toms ( I can
literally hear gasps and jeers from RAP members everytime I mention roto
toms ) and sound quite good. Since I'm using overheads I tend to use little
if any in my mixes but when I need them they sound fine ( through a PreSonus
M80 ). The pattern is cardioid on the wide side but if you aim them away
from your v-drum pads you should be fine. They are inexpensive too, under
$80 each or right at $200 for a matched pair with shock mounts and case :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3705635051&category=41466
I've heard of people using them with good success as overheads but I haven't
tried them for that.

Best of luck!

John L Rice

[Garthrr]

In article >,
(MHomeSter8) writes:

>
> Thanks. Sold! It's about all I have enough budget left for.
> I'll also forego the SM57 idea and try three Oktava MC 012's for
>close micing. I have one nicer condenser, an AT 4060. For the time being,
>I'm
>going to have to go for the mono overhead mic. Though that brings up another
>question... Given that the MC 012's are so cheap, how well would they fare
>as
>a stereo pair for overheads?

I think they do quite well.
Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

[Arny Krueger]

"John L Rice" > wrote in message


> You might want to check out the Marshall MXL 603s small diaphragm
> condensers. I've been using them for hihat, ride and roto toms ( I
> can literally hear gasps and jeers from RAP members everytime I
> mention roto toms ) and sound quite good. Since I'm using overheads
> I tend to use little if any in my mixes but when I need them they
> sound fine ( through a PreSonus M80 ). The pattern is cardioid on
> the wide side but if you aim them away from your v-drum pads you
> should be fine. They are inexpensive too, under $80 each or right at
> $200 for a matched pair with shock mounts and case :
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3705635051&category=41466
I've heard of people using them with good success as overheads but I haven't
> tried them for that.

IME the 603s are a good general-purpose mic, but due to handling noise and
the very modest pop filter, not really good for vocals. Adding another layer
of foam pop filter gets rid of the pops but of course does nothing for the
modest handling noise. A careful vocalist could use them hand-held, but I
don't know any vocalists who like being bound to being that careful.

If you already have SM57s or 58s, 603s could well be your next mics "for
everything else". Everything else I've tried them on but hand-held vocals
has been IMO successful. Maybe not stunning, but successful. On a completely
different topic, they make a wonderful Baptismal mic. When I use them with
my Mackie console, I use 10 dB attenuators.

I bid on another one of MA's auctions a few weeks ago and walked away at a
delivered price that was well under $200. Shipment was quick and the goods
were exactly as promised. IMO it was a good trade. Check recent closed
auctions for the details.

The case and mounts are pretty cool-looking but some of the shiny stuff on
the case is plastic. I don't know if I will ever use the shock mounts with
603s (I now own 5), but the shock mounts do seem to be pretty adaptable.
Like I said the 603s aren't highly shock resistant, so it's not like the
shock mounts are totally gratuitous. If I had mic stands sitting on cheap
risers or a bouncy floor, I'd probably love them.

[Buster Mudd]

"John L Rice" > wrote in message >...

> I've been using them for hihat, ride and roto toms ( I can
> literally hear gasps and jeers from RAP members everytime I mention roto
> toms )

And at least one heartfelt "bravo!" I freakin' love the sound of
roto-toms! Wish Bill Bruford would do another record with his
circa-1979 drumkit.

[Roger W. Norman]

Well funny you should mention Bill because I'm sitting here wondering just
why anyone would want to use acoustic cymbals on a V-Drum kit. Somehow it
just doesn't make sense to me. I guess it would be ok if you're only going
to be drumming with headphones, but I've gone that route with other drummers
and they can't keep the timing right with a mix of acoustic and virtual
drums. I'd just go for one of the other, but that's just me and my kit is
primarily used as primal therapy, so what do I know?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Buster Mudd" > wrote in message
om...
> "John L Rice" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > I've been using them for hihat, ride and roto toms ( I can
> > literally hear gasps and jeers from RAP members everytime I mention roto
> > toms )
>
> And at least one heartfelt "bravo!" I freakin' love the sound of
> roto-toms! Wish Bill Bruford would do another record with his
> circa-1979 drumkit.