Recommendation for large d condenser - drum room

[jack0554]

hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
TLII?... all input appreciated -j

[Scott Dorsey]

jack0554 > wrote:
>hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
>am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
>compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
>room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
>patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
>drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
>TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
>is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
>characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
>TLII?... all input appreciated -j

Why do you want large diaphragm condensers for this?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Todd Lipcon]

In article >,
"jack0554" > wrote:

> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
> TLII?... all input appreciated -j
>
>

Do you really want large diaphragm condensers? You'd probably be better
off with a matched stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers like
KM-184s or Josephson C42s. For a little cheaper, you might also check
out a matched stereo pair of Octava MC-012 from The Sound Room. The
advantage of the MC-012 is that you can get sets of different capsules
(omni, hypercardioid, and cardioid) to expand your options.

-Todd

[Dave]

Go with the AKG 414's. I have tried many, many mics for room mics for drums,
and specifically overheads. These are the only mics I end up using for that.
They have always sounded the best on drums for me.

I have never really been into the small diaphragm mics for overheads or room
mics. They never sounded full enough for me.

-Dave


jack0554 > wrote in message
...
> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much...
I
> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my
guess
> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG
414
> TLII?... all input appreciated -j
>
>

[jack0554]

<< Why do you want large diaphragm condensers for this? --scott >>
-----------------------

My goal is to slowly build up my mic collection a bit more so I have more
choices for experimentation in the studio... I do have a few pairs of good
small d condensers that i like a lot and work well... I often use the small
d condensers for overhead, good off axis response... but since i only have
one pair of large d condensers in my "collection" at this time, i figured it
might be a good idea to have another different pair as well just so I have a
choice... in a perfect world I could have access to every mic that exists to
try, but this is not possible... gotta start somewhere... right now the only
large d mic I have experience with is a TLM103 which I think is a wonderful
mic... what mics would you recommend from your experience for drum room for
pretty loud rock'n'roll drums?... open to all suggestions, small d or large
d condensers even though I am interested in getting more experience with
other large d mics... I have experimented with dynamic mics for drum room
and was never happy with the results... thank you

[Druhms]

Try some ribbons. Great stuff. If you have to have condensors, I like the
103's in a good big room.
JJ
www.BoogieTracks.com

[jack0554]

<< Try some ribbons. Great stuff. If you have to have condensors, I like
the 103's in a good big room. JJ
www.BoogieTracks.com >>
----------------------

I fooled around with some ribbons once at another studio and was not really
into what they were doing for drum ambience at least per my taste... I
realize I should not judge all ribbons based on just one pair, but I like a
lot of articulation and clarity (like what a TLM103 can do)... the ribbons i
tried were more "earthy" or "grainy" which was cool, but just not what I am
after personally... but I know I should listen to some more ribbons before I
fully dismiss them... can you recommend any ribbons that provide good
clarity and articulation?...hey, I noticed at your website that you have a
TLM103, U87i and AT 4050...how would you compare these three mics?..thanks

[Druhms]

Yeah, I wouldn't describe ribbons as being very clear. Like you said, earthy
is a good way to describe it. I like the big squashed ribbon drum sound, so
that's why I'm a fan. Old Zep is a good point of reference. The 103's aren't
exactly the epitome of clarity either though. Clarity is best achieved with
small diaphrams for room mics.
As far as the 103-u87-4050 comparison. The u 87 is the best all around. The
103 has a hyped bottom end that can be cool in the right areas, and the 4050
seems more natural sounding. I especially like the 4050 on good sounding toms.
103's are too boomy for toms. U87 is good everywhere....almost.
JJ
www.BoogieTracks.com


>I fooled around with some ribbons once at another studio and was not really
>into what they were doing for drum ambience at least per my taste... I
>realize I should not judge all ribbons based on just one pair, but I like a
>lot of articulation and clarity (like what a TLM103 can do)... the ribbons i
>tried were more "earthy" or "grainy" which was cool, but just not what I am
>after personally... but I know I should listen to some more ribbons before I
>fully dismiss them... can you recommend any ribbons that provide good
>clarity and articulation?...hey, I noticed at your website that you have a
>TLM103, U87i and AT 4050...how would you compare these three mics?..thanks

[Scott Dorsey]

jack0554 > wrote:
><< Try some ribbons. Great stuff. If you have to have condensors, I like
>the 103's in a good big room. JJ
>www.BoogieTracks.com >>
>----------------------
>
>I fooled around with some ribbons once at another studio and was not really
>into what they were doing for drum ambience at least per my taste... I
>realize I should not judge all ribbons based on just one pair, but I like a
>lot of articulation and clarity (like what a TLM103 can do)... the ribbons i
>tried were more "earthy" or "grainy" which was cool, but just not what I am
>after personally... but I know I should listen to some more ribbons before I
>fully dismiss them... can you recommend any ribbons that provide good
>clarity and articulation?...hey, I noticed at your website that you have a
>TLM103, U87i and AT 4050...how would you compare these three mics?..thanks

What ribbons did you try?

I'd suggest the Beyer M160 as a good first start. None of the ribbons will
give you a huge amount of bite to the snare and cymbal sounds, but sometimes
that's a great thing. The M160 will give you more top end than most of them,
as well the Coles 4040.

I'd tend to go with a good pair of small diaphragm condensers that are as
neutral as possible, but a lot of folks would disagree with that.

I think the 414s are overrated and I have never really liked them for
anything, but they are worth trying out, and they will look good on your
mike list. Same goes for the U87.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sugarite]

> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much...
I
> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my
guess
> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG
414
> TLII?... all input appreciated -j

You've already got the most versatile Neumann LDC they make, so unless
you're buying your 4th or 5th LDC, I'd stick to the more versatile ones from
other companies. The Rode NTK is widely considered one of the most
versatile LDC's out there especially for the cost, and the new K2 offers
variable response patterns. While I haven't tried the K2, the NTK is easily
on par with the TLM-103 yet different enough to offer the alternative you
seek without the limitations of other Neumann LDC's. For example, IMO a U89
meets the performance one should expect from its price tag only for certain
vocal types. And the 414 I only find good on non-steel stringed
instruments, from classical guitar to violin. I've used it on vocals only
where an earthiness was desired (twice).

My advice is to stick with the budget versatile performers until you know
exactly what specific needs you often have, then find the high-end mic that
fits that bill.

[hank alrich]

jack0554 wrote:

> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
> TLII?... all input appreciated -j

Plenty of poeple are going to try to sway you to some other type of mic
which _they_ prefer to use in such a setting. But that's no reason you
should be deterred from seeking other LDC's for your purpose(s).
different storkes, etc. I have pals who like all kinds of different mics
for drum room sound, and the funny thing, they all get good sounds into
storage.

Tried any of the Lawsons yet? L47MP might thrill you. How much you want
to spend? Brauners...

--
ha

[Fill X]

i'd get a soundelux u195 for out in front of the kit perhaps then.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

[Dave]

I also like the Lawson L47's as well.



Dave > wrote in message
k.net...
> Go with the AKG 414's. I have tried many, many mics for room mics for
drums,
> and specifically overheads. These are the only mics I end up using for
that.
> They have always sounded the best on drums for me.
>
> I have never really been into the small diaphragm mics for overheads or
room
> mics. They never sounded full enough for me.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> jack0554 > wrote in message
> ...
> > hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very
much...
> I
> > am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers
to
> > compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> > room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> > patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be
for
> > drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> > TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my
> guess
> > is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> > characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG
> 414
> > TLII?... all input appreciated -j
> >
> >
>
>

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "jack0554"
> wrote:
>hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
>am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
>compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
>room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
>patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
>drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
>TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
>is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
>characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
>TLII?... all input appreciated -j
>
>

Hmm, if you like the TLM 103, try the new TLM 127 with remote power supply
that provides five patterns. The capsule on the TLM 127 is a double sided
version of the TLM 103. It's selfnoise is 8dB-A!

I've been playing with one the last few days. The Omni is rather bright
directly on axis. Sounds like it would be better slightly twisted off axis
if used close or do nicely in a diffuse field at a distance.

That's all you get from me til the review hits the pages of Pro Audio Review.


Regards,

Ty Ford


For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, Todd
Lipcon > wrote:
>In article >,
> "jack0554" > wrote:
>
>> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
>> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
>> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
>> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
>> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
>> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
>> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
>> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
>> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
>> TLII?... all input appreciated -j
>>
>>
>
>Do you really want large diaphragm condensers? You'd probably be better
>off with a matched stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers like
>KM-184s or Josephson C42s. For a little cheaper, you might also check
>out a matched stereo pair of Octava MC-012 from The Sound Room. The
>advantage of the MC-012 is that you can get sets of different capsules
>(omni, hypercardioid, and cardioid) to expand your options.
>
>-Todd

It's very difficult to like any Oktava after you've heard a TLM 103.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "Sugarite"
> wrote:
>> hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much...
>I
>> am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
>> compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
>> room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
>> patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
>> drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
>> TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my
>guess
>> is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
>> characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG
>414
>> TLII?... all input appreciated -j
>
>You've already got the most versatile Neumann LDC they make, so unless
>you're buying your 4th or 5th LDC, I'd stick to the more versatile ones from
>other companies.

nu unh! The TLM 127 is something to be considered.

Ty
For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Neil Henderson]

>hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much... I
>am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
>compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
>room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
>patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
>drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
>TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my guess
>is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
>characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG 414
>TLII?... all input appreciated -j

Pretty observant & relevant responses from everyone I've seen (out of the dozen
or so that are posted at the time I am reading this & responding); but if I
were in your shoes, I would go with the u-87's for the following reasons:

1.) You say you like the -103's somewhat in this application, so there is
obviously something about the characteristics of an LDC that you desire. One up
for the u-87.

2.) I like 'em fro this application, too. I've used u-87's as room mics &
overheads a LOT, and they are actually my all-time favorite mics for drum
overheads, so I'll admit to some personal bias here... you just have to make
sure you don't stuff them right into the cymbals. Back 'em off a bit... maybe
2-3 feet off the tops and a foot or two out in front, depending on the kit &
the room... that way you don't get the swishing/phasing/proximity thing when a
cymbal is struck.

3.) You can also use them for plenty of other things... so you get a lot of
bang for your buck - it's a very versatile mic, of course.

4.) Buy a couple used if you can find some in good shape, and if you hate them,
you can always sell them & not be out very much (if any) dough. There's always
SOMEBODY looking to buy one somewhere.

Was wondering, what kind of ribbons have you tried? You said you didn't like
them for overheads... were they not "sparkly" enough for you... is that what it
was?

Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock...
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[jack0554]

<< Was wondering, what kind of ribbons have you tried? You said you didn't
like them for overheads... were they not "sparkly" enough for you... is that
what it was? >>
------------------

Yes... there was a lack of "clarity" and I suppose you could say there was a
lack of "sparkle"... I don't remember now what they were... well, another
example, did you ever hear that Royer demo cd?... even on that cd, the Royer
ribbons have a darkish grainy type sound on drums... in some spots it's hard
to hear the ride cymbal articulation... you can hear it, but I can see it
getting lost real fast in a busy mix... when I use TLM103s for overheads
though, all cymbal articulation is bright and "pingy", has a
"higher-resolution" type sound, I hear everything and that's what I like...
I think ribbons do sound really neat actually, but it's just not the type of
thing I often go for with the type of stuff I do... I suppose I should give
`em a try, but since this stuff ain't cheap, I'd like to at least attempt to
narrow down what might be best for my situation before laying out the
dough.... so you like the U87s... I wonder how they different sonically from
the U89s?... and I am curious about the Coles 4040 ribbon mics based on the
recommendations that they are a bit brighter than most ribbons, etc... after
a google search and other searching, I can't seem to find any useful reviews
of this mic...thanks

[Frank Lockwood]

In article >,
"jack0554" > wrote:

> I am curious about the Coles 4040 ribbon mics based on the
> recommendations that they are a bit brighter than most ribbons, etc... after
> a google search and other searching, I can't seem to find any useful reviews
> of this mic...thanks

If you can manage a look at the Audio Engineering Associates R84
(roughly $1000 USD) ribbon, you might find the kind of top end
that is missing from other ribbon microphones. These mics are
lighter than the Coles, or even the old RCAs although they are
fairly large, but the transient response is most impressive on
metallic instruments.

--
FL

[Twist Turner]

Drum ambience was one of 2 things I thought the Lawson did well(the
other being sax). I just got the BLUE B6 capsule for a Akg 451, and
compared it to a vocal track done with my Lawson before I sold it, they
were so close I really had to strain to tell the difference, I haven't
tried it in front of the drum kit, but I bet it would do nearly the same
thing as the lawson for about $1400 less(including the 451)



Twist Turner
http://tinyurl.com/ul70

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank Lockwood > wrote:
>In article >,
> "jack0554" > wrote:
>
>> I am curious about the Coles 4040 ribbon mics based on the
>> recommendations that they are a bit brighter than most ribbons, etc... after
>> a google search and other searching, I can't seem to find any useful reviews
>> of this mic...thanks
>
>If you can manage a look at the Audio Engineering Associates R84
>(roughly $1000 USD) ribbon, you might find the kind of top end
>that is missing from other ribbon microphones. These mics are
>lighter than the Coles, or even the old RCAs although they are
>fairly large, but the transient response is most impressive on
>metallic instruments.

Actually, I found the top end on the R84 somewhat poorer than the
reference 77DX that I compared it with.

The 4040 is nothing like that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "jack0554"
> wrote:
><< Was wondering, what kind of ribbons have you tried? You said you didn't
>like them for overheads... were they not "sparkly" enough for you... is that
>what it was? >>
>------------------
>
>Yes... there was a lack of "clarity" and I suppose you could say there was a
>lack of "sparkle"... I don't remember now what they were... well, another
>example, did you ever hear that Royer demo cd?... even on that cd, the Royer
>ribbons have a darkish grainy type sound on drums... in some spots it's hard
>to hear the ride cymbal articulation... you can hear it, but I can see it
>getting lost real fast in a busy mix... when I use TLM103s for overheads
>though, all cymbal articulation is bright and "pingy", has a
>"higher-resolution" type sound, I hear everything and that's what I like...
>I think ribbons do sound really neat actually, but it's just not the type of
>thing I often go for with the type of stuff I do... I suppose I should give
>`em a try, but since this stuff ain't cheap, I'd like to at least attempt to
>narrow down what might be best for my situation before laying out the
>dough.... so you like the U87s... I wonder how they different sonically from
>the U89s?... and I am curious about the Coles 4040 ribbon mics based on the
>recommendations that they are a bit brighter than most ribbons, etc... after
>a google search and other searching, I can't seem to find any useful reviews
>of this mic...thanks


Good luck with that. Most ribbons fall off pretty rapidly after 10kHz.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Mikey]

"jack0554" > wrote in message >...
> << Was wondering, what kind of ribbons have you tried? You said you didn't
> like them for overheads... were they not "sparkly" enough for you... is that
> what it was? >>
> ------------------
>
> Yes... there was a lack of "clarity" and I suppose you could say there was a
> lack of "sparkle"... I don't remember now what they were... well, another
> example, did you ever hear that Royer demo cd?... even on that cd, the Royer
> ribbons have a darkish grainy type sound on drums... in some spots it's hard
> to hear the ride cymbal articulation... you can hear it, but I can see it
> getting lost real fast in a busy mix... when I use TLM103s for overheads
> though, all cymbal articulation is bright and "pingy", has a
> "higher-resolution" type sound, I hear everything and that's what I like...
> I think ribbons do sound really neat actually, but it's just not the type of
> thing I often go for with the type of stuff I do... I suppose I should give
> `em a try, but since this stuff ain't cheap, I'd like to at least attempt to
> narrow down what might be best for my situation before laying out the
> dough.... so you like the U87s... I wonder how they different sonically from
> the U89s?... and I am curious about the Coles 4040 ribbon mics based on the
> recommendations that they are a bit brighter than most ribbons, etc... after
> a google search and other searching, I can't seem to find any useful reviews
> of this mic...thanks

I think the 103s are a terrific choice - one of the best - for
distant/room drum micing. You'd have to spend a LOT of money to find
something better, IMO. I think the 4050s would also be good, but
perhaps not different enough from the 103s to justify. The Royers are
gorgeous, IMO, and give a very different character - (try using the
BACK side of the 121s for more brightness & detail), and are great on
E. Gtrs. as well. I think the Lawson L47 would be better suited to
kick or maybe floor tom. Other things to consider: maybe a preamp
change would help? What are you using now?

Mikey
Nova Music Productions

[Dan [ www.sleepwalkermusic.net ]]

Take a look at the Rode K2. It's a multi-pattern tube mic that I can
personally attest sounds great on vox, overheads, kick, toms, and acoustic
guitar. It's around $600-700 new.

I like the 103, I had one for a while, but ended up selling it when I picked
up the NTK and NT1000. I think the 414 is overrated. It's a good all around
mic, but never really did it for me.
Dan
www.sleepwalkermusic.net


"Ty Ford" > wrote in message
...
> In Article >, "jack0554"
> > wrote:
> >hello... i already own a pair of Neumann TLM103s that I like very much...
I
> >am looking to get another different pair of large diaphragm condensers to
> >compliment the TLM103s... use mostly for drum room and other all purpose
> >room stuff.... would like mics this time with multiple switchable
> >patterns... how about the Neumann U87i or U89i?... how might these be for
> >drum room (loud rock often), and how different are they sonically from
> >TLM103s?... what about other Neumanns such as the TLM193, 170, but my
guess
> >is that all the TLM series neumann mics may have very similar sonic
> >characteristics and I already have the TLM103s... and what about the AKG
414
> >TLII?... all input appreciated -j
> >
> >
>
> Hmm, if you like the TLM 103, try the new TLM 127 with remote power supply
> that provides five patterns. The capsule on the TLM 127 is a double sided
> version of the TLM 103. It's selfnoise is 8dB-A!
>
> I've been playing with one the last few days. The Omni is rather bright
> directly on axis. Sounds like it would be better slightly twisted off axis
> if used close or do nicely in a diffuse field at a distance.
>
> That's all you get from me til the review hits the pages of Pro Audio
Review.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
>
> For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
> click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford
>

[David Zajac]

I'll 2nd that recommendation of the Rode K2. Continuously variable pattern.
Great mic for anything from the softest of whispers to close mic'ing a
howitzer (ok slight exaggeration, but 10dba self noise to 169 max dba my
Gaud!) Awesomely-Fantastic sound & build quality. (I'm not being overly
enthusiastic am I?) Finally call www.humbuckermusic.com and ask them for
their best price. ( No I Don't Work There!) It's where I bought mine.


David Zajac
http://home.hiwaay.net/~zajac

[hank alrich]

Hal Laurent wrote:

> I'm not sure what the difference is between the TLM 170 and the TLM-127.


= -297

--
ha

[umbriaco]

in article , Hal Laurent at
wrote on 2/20/04 12:49 PM:

> I'm not sure what the difference is between the TLM 170 and the TLM-127.

The capsules are very different.

Neumann says the TLM127 capsule is based on the TLM103 capsule,
which is a variation of the U87a capsule.

The TLM170 capsule is a smaller diameter.
Variants of this capsule are in the U89 and TLM193.
This capsule has a less forward, more neutral sound.

Don't know what the preamp of the TLM127 is but it's probably is not much
different from any of the other TLM's

[WideGlide]

>The TLM 170 is based on the U 89 capsule.
>The TLM 127 is based on the TLM
>103 capsule. I'm sure there are other differences.
> Regards, Ty Ford
-------------------------

I missed the first part of this thread but was just wondering, what are the
differences sonically speaking between the TLM103 and U87 ? Elsewhere in
this thread I believe it was said that the 103 capsule was related to the
U87 capsule. At the Neumann site it recommends the 103 for louder high
transient things like percussion etc, while the U87 seems to be recommended
for less harsh things such as piano, vocals, etc. Just wondering, if you
put a 103 and a U87 up on the same sound source, how they might compare
sonically? I think the 103 is a great mic, but there must be a reason why
the U87 costs considerably more and has such a huge reputation. The new
TLM127 seems to be a cool affordable good all-purpose mic, but as someone
else suggested, if you already have some 103s in your mic drawer, a 127
might be a bit redundant. - wg

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, "WideGlide"
> wrote:
>>The TLM 170 is based on the U 89 capsule.
>>The TLM 127 is based on the TLM
>>103 capsule. I'm sure there are other differences.
>> Regards, Ty Ford
>-------------------------
>
>I missed the first part of this thread but was just wondering, what are the
>differences sonically speaking between the TLM103 and U87 ? Elsewhere in
>this thread I believe it was said that the 103 capsule was related to the
>U87 capsule.

It may have been said, but that would be totally incorrect.

At the Neumann site it recommends the 103 for louder high
>transient things like percussion etc, while the U87 seems to be recommended
>for less harsh things such as piano, vocals, etc. Just wondering, if you
>put a 103 and a U87 up on the same sound source, how they might compare
>sonically? I think the 103 is a great mic, but there must be a reason why
>the U87 costs considerably more and has such a huge reputation. The new
>TLM127 seems to be a cool affordable good all-purpose mic, but as someone
>else suggested, if you already have some 103s in your mic drawer, a 127
>might be a bit redundant. - wg


Unless having a mic with five patterns versus one is seen as an advantage.

Regards,

Ty Ford


For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Ty Ford]

In Article >, umbriaco
> wrote:
>in article , Hal Laurent at
>wrote on 2/20/04 12:49 PM:
>
>> I'm not sure what the difference is between the TLM 170 and the TLM-127.
>
>The capsules are very different.
>
>Neumann says the TLM127 capsule is based on the TLM103 capsule,
>which is a variation of the U87a capsule.

Did Neumann say the TLM 103 is a variation of the U 87a?

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Will Miho]

(Ty Ford) wrote
>
> Did Neumann say the TLM 103 is a variation of the U 87a?

At AES a few years back they were saying that, and it's on the
product page.

"The K 103 large diaphragm capsule is based on the K 87, well known
from the U 67 / U 87 microphones.The capsule has a flat frequency
response up to about 5 kHz, and above that, a wide flat 4 dB presence
boost."

I think U87's have even more presence boost above 5k than that,
although I don't usually think of the TLM103 as being flatter
somehow...

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox News/Fox & Friends
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(Will Miho) wrote:
(Ty Ford) wrote
>>
>> Did Neumann say the TLM 103 is a variation of the U 87a?
>
> At AES a few years back they were saying that, and it's on the
>product page.
>
>"The K 103 large diaphragm capsule is based on the K 87, well known
>from the U 67 / U 87 microphones.The capsule has a flat frequency
>response up to about 5 kHz, and above that, a wide flat 4 dB presence
>boost."
>
> I think U87's have even more presence boost above 5k than that,
>although I don't usually think of the TLM103 as being flatter
>somehow...
>
>Will Miho


Ah, well then let's take a closer look. We all pretty much know that the U
87 and TLM 103 don't sound alike for amny reasons. So the thought that one
"is based on the other" becomes more relative, low order explanation than an
accurate technical description.

In that context, sure the TLM 103 is based on the U 87. This statement could
be made about any Neumann LD condenser that followed the U 87. Neumann holds
a unique position with the U87. Not many mic manufacturers have had a mic
that has prevailed to the degree teh U 87 has.

Imagine for a moment the Chevrolet marketing department meeting..."Hmmm, the
new Monte Carlo is based on the Corvair. No, that's not right. The new Monte
Carlo is based on the Impala! THAT'S IT!"

BTW, I quite like the TLM 127 so far. It's based on the TLM 103, (which as
we all know now is based on the U 87) but even its cardioid pattern (of the
several of which it's capable) sounds a bit different than the TLM 103. A
PAR review is in the works. I ain't sayin' no more. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford



For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[David Satz]

Ty Ford wrote:

> We all pretty much know that the U 87 and TLM 103 don't sound alike
> for [ma]ny reasons. So the thought that one "is based on the other"
> becomes more relative, low order explanation than an accurate technical
> description.

This was discussed in some detail, with contributions from Karl Winkler
of Sennheiser/Neumann and (ahem) some from myself, in a thread on this
newsgroup in September, 2000. Unfortunately the thread got split in two
when someone altered the subject line. The relevant part can be seen
on http://tinyurl.com/2jjj7 (the original question was about "InnerTube"
electronics for the U 87, and can be seen on http://tinyurl.com/38fog).
See in particular the reference to the model "TLM 171" in that thread.

Upshot is that the K 103 capsule is similar in design to 1/2 of a K 87,
but single-sided and thus cardioid only. (I believe that its process of
manufacture also involves fewer manual steps than that of the K 87; it
is considerably less expensive.) But keep in mind that the electronics
of the U 87 family of microphones roll off the top end response of the
capsule by 3 - 7 (!) dB depending different on the particular model.
The TLM 103's electronics don't use any such rolloff.

[WillStG]

<< (Ty Ford) >>
<< Ah, well then let's take a closer look. We all pretty much know that the U
87 and TLM 103 don't sound alike for amny reasons. So the thought that one
"is based on the other" becomes more relative, low order explanation than an
accurate technical description.

In that context, sure the TLM 103 is based on the U 87. This statement could
be made about any Neumann LD condenser that followed the U 87 >>

Ty, they say the TLM103's _capsule_ is based on the
U87's _capsule_. That's a bit different than saying the whole mic is based on
the U87, at least to me it is.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(David Satz) wrote:
>Ty Ford wrote:
>
>> We all pretty much know that the U 87 and TLM 103 don't sound alike
>> for [ma]ny reasons. So the thought that one "is based on the other"
>> becomes more relative, low order explanation than an accurate technical
>> description.
>
>This was discussed in some detail, with contributions from Karl Winkler
>of Sennheiser/Neumann and (ahem) some from myself, in a thread on this
>newsgroup in September, 2000. Unfortunately the thread got split in two
>when someone altered the subject line. The relevant part can be seen
>on http://tinyurl.com/2jjj7 (the original question was about "InnerTube"
>electronics for the U 87, and can be seen on http://tinyurl.com/38fog).
>See in particular the reference to the model "TLM 171" in that thread.
>
>Upshot is that the K 103 capsule is similar in design to 1/2 of a K 87,
>but single-sided and thus cardioid only. (I believe that its process of
>manufacture also involves fewer manual steps than that of the K 87; it
>is considerably less expensive.) But keep in mind that the electronics
>of the U 87 family of microphones roll off the top end response of the
>capsule by 3 - 7 (!) dB depending different on the particular model.
>The TLM 103's electronics don't use any such rolloff.

And the U 87 also tucks in the bottom with some (I believe) capacitive
magic. Thanks for helping me make my point David. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

[Ty Ford]

In Article >,
(WillStG) wrote:
><< (Ty Ford) >>
><< Ah, well then let's take a closer look. We all pretty much know that the U
>87 and TLM 103 don't sound alike for amny reasons. So the thought that one
>"is based on the other" becomes more relative, low order explanation than an
>accurate technical description.
>
>In that context, sure the TLM 103 is based on the U 87. This statement could
>be made about any Neumann LD condenser that followed the U 87 >>
>
> Ty, they say the TLM103's _capsule_ is based on the
>U87's _capsule_. That's a bit different than saying the whole mic is based on
>the U87, at least to me it is.

A very big difference, and one that frequently gets lost in the typical back
and forth. That'd mean the TLM 127 should sound a lot like the U 87 then, right?

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford